=AE:Iron Demon Development (temp/sandbox)=
An attemp to establish order in my head
This is what I'm gathering of what I need to do
Feel free to edit this
==TRBS==
===Consistency with Bungie's Iron Demon===
====Geometry====
Changes to be made to 17sec's model:
*Body/Head/Eye
:*Narrower body
:*Tapered base of the wings/arm shields protrusion from body's sides
:*Details where the arms meet the body?
:*Taper the face to the eye
:*Taper the back of the body to a more rounded point
:*Narrower Dynamo/badonkadonk
:*A heat-seeking missile pod on the back, pointing upward
:*Grenade launcher (chin gunpod)

*Arms
:Will the barrels be detached to PAR3?
:*Move the arms back
:*Round the arms more - almost half-teardrop - and a little thinner

*Feet
:*Blocky sole of foot is front half only. Needs a narrower claw-like heel, possibly part of calf rather than foot?
:*Foot shell sides same shape as foot's sides
:*Hoses behind the holes in the shinguards for the torches

====Texture====
*color correction

===References and Comparisons===
====Pics====
http://wiki.oni2.net/w/images/d/df/OniBattle.jpg

[[Image:Oni_Faces.jpg|thumb|740px]]

http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/Konoko%20runs%20from%20ID.jpg

http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20old%20size.jpg http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20new%20size.jpg

comparison of scale and textures, Bungie's with 17sec's model

http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20forward%20old.jpg http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20forward%20new.jpg

http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20old%20size.jpg http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20new%20new%20size%202.jpg

observations of descrepancies, Bungie's with 127.5% scale, modified

http://edt.oni2.net/temp/ID_Size.jpg

====Vids====
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLZ2hJZvrmo Second Oni Trailer]
*[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STMMqcpJuB0 ID clips in slow-motion]

===Final Nicification Checklist===
*No asymmetric quads
*No bad normals / smoothing
*Color correction

==TRAM==
*death anim will use knockdown_head and blownup AnimType
*Idle/walking/turning/running/sprinting(when un-armed)?
*Punch and kick TRAM will take care of emitting projectiles from the 3 "weapons"
*Stomp. Maybe some shockwaves from the feet as well.
*Aiming screens

User talk:Bobbysoon/Animation Discussion

2009-09-17T22:32:07Z

Bobbysoon: Error: I lied - that animation isn't right - this is what it should look like:

User talk:Bobbysoon/Animation Discussion

2009-09-15T19:13:56Z

Bobbysoon: It worked for the TRBS..?

Working on a workflow for animation. Made a dependencies and xml browser to help me get with the program
It doesn't even use idle, does it? It's always running, right? So for starters I should work on anims from the run set? --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 19:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
::I think we need these animations:
:::-Idle - simple Iron Demon standing
:::-Turn left / Turn right - simple Iron Demon standing, but during this animation he rotates around his axis a bit left/right. Maybe you can give him a slight movement of legs to make it look better.
:::-Run forward left leg / Run forward right leg - these two will be alternating to make Iron Demon run forward. His "run" should look similar to Mutant Muro's movement ( slow and heavy ), but ID should move more robotic - like.
:::-Run backward left leg / Run backward right leg - just reversed versions of aforementioned, used for backpedaling
:::-Runstart forward / Runstart backward - transition animation, starts from idle, moves one leg a bit forward so it can smoothly transit to either left leg or right leg run animation. You can choose which one, that does not matter.
:::-Runstop forward / backward - opposite of those two above.
:I guess that should be enough for the beginning. Later we can add more. --[[User:Loser|Loser]] 20:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

bobbysoon, I watched your animation on YouTube as linked to above. Looks like you got the mechanics down perfectly. Now, help a confused guy out. Is that intended to be a walk or a run? And what did you mean about the model kneeling? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:24, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:That's walking. Here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS8Iiy2_Z-g side view], starting with kneeling and standing full height at the end. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 04:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

::Okay... so, dumb question time: why is he "kneeling"? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 14:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Cause that's it's no-anim using default pose. That's how the model was that I got, and I defaulted node rotations before attaching the mesh to them. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 16:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

::::Hmm, see, here's part of why I'm so confused: the ID does not seem to have lower legs; rather the upper legs connect to the feet with a rotating joint. Hence, I don't know what kneeling means because I don't consider the ID as having knees. Do you mean that the old ID stood up straighter than the new ID, i.e., the upper body was angled back more with respect to the feet? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::It's about .375 units taller standing up. The way it's legs fold, it's 'knees' are reversed, like a bird's. I'll try to make another TRBS, standing as default pose --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 20:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Bebuggeredly with the 3ds exports, crash after crash. Blasted ColladaMAX. I'm yet to isolate what it's blathering about.
:::::I've read it said that animations are rotation only - yet, it's appearant in the oni2 trailer, that the ID has a bobbing pelvis - or that it's using an alternate node set that simulates a bouncing center of gravity. I have observed that deleting the pelvis's animation keys allows OniSplit to progress to report errors about a calf, rather than the pelvis (something about -z rotation). I'm sorry I didn't take better notes. Between 3ds, colladaMAX, OniSplit, and life in general, I'm getting rather frayed. Point being, this might take a while --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 06:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Animations are rotation only...except for the pelvis. :p The pelvis can translate as much as it likes. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 13:07, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::I know the feeling, believe me. Eventually it seems like nothing works and you don't remember what you did when it was closest to working. Notes are in fact important for keeping track of what you try, but you already know that. Just don't feel that you have to solve these problems on your own. If you paste in some specific errors from OniSplit, for instance, Neo might be able to help you (might have to post your animated model too). We're getting into the least-proven area of modding now, so we'll just have to slog through in small steps together. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 13:27, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::You don't have to struggle alone, post the collada files, so we can take a look. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::::::::Thanks. Ok, [http://www.filefront.com/14507129/dae.rar 3 out of 4] - I accidentally overwrote stepa with a dae meant for trbs. nvm the filenames. Also, here's an [http://www.filefront.com/14507115/ID%20walking.xaf XML Animation file (*.xaf)], if any of you guys can import that. 0-19:start, 20-39:step a, 40-59:step b, 60-80:stop --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 22:46, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::Neo (Creator of OniSplit) has been notified about the problem, now we just wait until he looks at the dae files and figures out the problem. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

:::::::::Bobby: Can you export the TRAMs as FBX files? Neo is having some issues with the Collada files, somehow, they don't look right. The body seems to move up. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

[http://www.filefront.com/14513937/FBX%20varients.rar FBX variants.rar] Probably just need the one from the latest version (I think it's version variants), but had done them all last night anyhow. Exporting these never crashes 3ds - it'd be great if these could be accommodated by oniSplit. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 23:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

::These files are in the Collada format. Can you export the TRAMs so that there are in the .fbx format. Something like this: TRAMID_runstart.fbx [[User:EdT|EdT]]
:::Sorry about that - although I think the content is as it would be had I typed .fbx, or not appended an extension when exporting. I used 3ds's built in exporter for FileType: (*.fbx; *.dae). 2 plugins in one? Anyhow, here's [http://www.filefront.com/14514769/ascii%20TRAMID_runstart.fbx ascii TRAMID_runstart.fbx] and [http://www.filefront.com/14514791/not%20ascii%20TRAMID_runstart.fbx not ascii TRAMID_runstart.fbx], and these are the options:
:::http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w161/bobbysoon/exportoptions.jpg

::::You forgot to include the animation in the fbx file. I noticed the Animation box was not selected. Also, can you include the native .3ds file of the walking animation? I think I can open it up in Cheetah3D. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::::That would be one of my more special moments http://www.modacity.net/forums/styles/smilies/extra/downs.gif
:::::fbx with animation: [http://www.filefront.com/14515617/ascii%20ID%20walking.FBX ascii] [http://www.filefront.com/14515621/not-ascii%20ID%20walking.FBX not ascii] [http://www.filefront.com/14515615/ID%20walking.3DS 3ds]

:::::colladaMAX crash figured out (fingers crossed). I cleared smoothing groups, applied fresh, textureless materials, exported to .3ds, imported it back, and was then able to export with colladaMAX to dae with animations, without crashing.
:::::The -z error occured when the sample animation option was unchecked:
::::::"Sample animation: Enables time-sampling the animated parameters, within the Start and End time interval. One sample is taken per time unit. If this option is disabled, ColladaMax will attempt to export the animated parameters as key-frames."
:::::With it checked, OniSplit reports this:
::::::<nowiki>Importing D:\Oni\Edition\install\packages\21100Iron_Demon\oni\level0_Final\dae\TRAMID_run1stepa.DAE</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki>System.IndexOutOfRangeException: Index was outside the bounds of the array.</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.<>c__DisplayClass16.<ReadAnimationChannel>b__15(Node node)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.<>c__DisplayClass1d`1.<BindId>b__1c()</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.ReadRoot()</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.ReadFile(String filePath)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Totoro.AnimationDaeReader.Import(String filePath, String outputDirPath)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Program.CreateGeneric(String[] args)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Program.Main(String[] args)</nowiki>

animations, [http://www.filefront.com/14515935/per%20time.DAE time interval] and [http://www.filefront.com/14515931/per%20key.DAE key specific]
::::::Thanks for the files, I'm trying to fix this. Some more notes:
::::::-Some of the problems are caused by Z-up vs. Y-up. Converting geometry from Z-up to Y-up is easy but I seem to have problems converting animations (and Softimage seems to have the same problems)
::::::-Another problem is that ColladaMAX exports a type of animation interpolation that OniSplit does not handle (TCB). I'll add support for that if I can figure out what TCB means. Until then the "sample animation" option is a good workaround (and keep in mind that you need 60fps, not 30 like in your fbx exporter screenshot).
:::::::Autodesk Reference: TCB Controllers
::::::::''"TCB Controllers produce curve-based animation much like Bezier controllers. However, TCB controllers do not use tangent types or adjustable tangent handles. They use fields to adjust the Tension, Continuity, and Bias of the animation.''
::::::::''This controller works well as a Position controller in conjunction with the Motion panel > Trajectories display of an object. With sub-object keys turned on and the Key Info dialog for a key displayed (right-click and select Key Info on the selected key to display Key Info properties), you can change the parameters in the Key Info dialog and see the trajectory path change. This allows for very precise control of an object's trajectory with visual feedback.''

::::::::''Euler XYZ is now the default rotation controller in 3ds Max. The TCB Rotation controller was the default rotation controller for files created in versions 4 and earlier.''

::::::::''Tip: Euler XYZ behaves very differently than TCB rotations. Users upgrading from versions 4 or earlier might have difficulty adapting to the differences between these controllers. If you are used to working with TCB rotations, you can reassign it to be the default rotation controller. "''
:::::::I had noticed that 3ds has 2 kinds of keys per rotation/position. One kind lists only position and rotation keys when I right-click a key, and it's rotation curves don't show in the curve editor, while the other lists x, y, and z for position & rotation. The former appears to be TCB. I'm not sure how I ended up with TCB, but I believe I converted them by "collapsing transforms", and so here's another dae: [http://www.filefront.com/14519017/walking%20non-tcb.DAE non-tcb walking animation .dae] --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 18:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::-Autodesk has a free "FBX Converter" that can be used to convert from .fbx to .dae (and back). It can also convert from .3ds to .fbx. See if that can be used as an alternative to ColladaMAX. Download here: [http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=10775855 FBX Converter]
:::::::Unfortunately, the converted fbx->dae generates the same array bounds error. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 19:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::::I chatted with Neo earlier and that error has been fixed. But now he needs to work on the ZUP issue. [[User:EdT|EdT]]
::::::::Yes that one is fixed. I suggested the FBX Converter only as a workaround to ColladaMAX crashes. Couple of other things:
::::::::-I got it somewhat working by exporting uncompressed TRAMs instead of compressed ones.
::::::::-Those Collada files use "meter" as unit. Currently OniSplit ignores that so don't be surprised if the model looks very small when imported.
::::::::-The TRBSs might need to be reimported when a new version of OniSplit is out. The current one might have messed up the bone order.
::::::::-I'm curious if you ever tried to import an animation exported by OniSplit into Max and if it worked correctly.
::::::::[[User:Neo|Neo]]
:::::::::Yeah, some are good, and some are buggy. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 11:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::[http://www.filefront.com/14526495/Glitches.rar 3 glitchy anim imports. avi & key curve screenshots] --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 19:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::-I'd suggest that this animation discussion be moved to a different page. It's getting long and we've yet to see the end of it.
::::::[[User:Neo|Neo]]
:::::::Thanks for your hard work, Neo. Re: moving to a different page, technically this entire page's contents belong at [[AE_talk:Iron Demon]], but I was waiting until we were done talking before I moved it, so as not to disrupt anything. Anyway, moving all of this over there won't help the animation discussion being huge, so perhaps I should give this topic its own subpage. But I don't really think it's that big, yet, as long as you click on [edit] for this section only when editing. If you want, though, I will move it to a subpage now; otherwise I will wait until the section's gotten over, say, 20KB (it's just under 10KB now). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:12, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::moved from [[User_talk:Bobbysoon]] --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 17:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Does this look right? [http://cid-639aa31296681bfe.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Oni/id.wmv rendered TRAMper_time.oni]
[[User:Neo|Neo]]

Yeah, thats right, that's the runstart I made. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 10:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Can you tell me what kind of measure units you use in Max? The Collada file contains this:
<unit meter="10" name="meter"/>
but this doesn't look right, it's like saying that a meter contains 10 meters!!!
For the clip you saw yesterday I scaled the thing by 10 (for example the pelvis height in Collada was ~0.5 so it ends up as ~5 in Oni).

[[User:Neo|Neo]]

In 3ds's system unit setup, I got 1 unit == 10 meters. It worked for the TRBS..? perhaps it means meters*=10?
I had been not importing the dae's units, because that way, with the 10 meter setup, konoko comes out 5'7". Importing with the dae's units, she's a more comfortable-to-work-with 170 generic units tall, but also she's 170 meters tall :p - meh, metrics. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 18:31, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Bobbysoon/Animation Discussion

2009-09-15T18:31:27Z

Bobbysoon: 1 unit == 10 meters

Working on a workflow for animation. Made a dependencies and xml browser to help me get with the program
It doesn't even use idle, does it? It's always running, right? So for starters I should work on anims from the run set? --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 19:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
::I think we need these animations:
:::-Idle - simple Iron Demon standing
:::-Turn left / Turn right - simple Iron Demon standing, but during this animation he rotates around his axis a bit left/right. Maybe you can give him a slight movement of legs to make it look better.
:::-Run forward left leg / Run forward right leg - these two will be alternating to make Iron Demon run forward. His "run" should look similar to Mutant Muro's movement ( slow and heavy ), but ID should move more robotic - like.
:::-Run backward left leg / Run backward right leg - just reversed versions of aforementioned, used for backpedaling
:::-Runstart forward / Runstart backward - transition animation, starts from idle, moves one leg a bit forward so it can smoothly transit to either left leg or right leg run animation. You can choose which one, that does not matter.
:::-Runstop forward / backward - opposite of those two above.
:I guess that should be enough for the beginning. Later we can add more. --[[User:Loser|Loser]] 20:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

bobbysoon, I watched your animation on YouTube as linked to above. Looks like you got the mechanics down perfectly. Now, help a confused guy out. Is that intended to be a walk or a run? And what did you mean about the model kneeling? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:24, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:That's walking. Here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS8Iiy2_Z-g side view], starting with kneeling and standing full height at the end. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 04:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

::Okay... so, dumb question time: why is he "kneeling"? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 14:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Cause that's it's no-anim using default pose. That's how the model was that I got, and I defaulted node rotations before attaching the mesh to them. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 16:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

::::Hmm, see, here's part of why I'm so confused: the ID does not seem to have lower legs; rather the upper legs connect to the feet with a rotating joint. Hence, I don't know what kneeling means because I don't consider the ID as having knees. Do you mean that the old ID stood up straighter than the new ID, i.e., the upper body was angled back more with respect to the feet? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::It's about .375 units taller standing up. The way it's legs fold, it's 'knees' are reversed, like a bird's. I'll try to make another TRBS, standing as default pose --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 20:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Bebuggeredly with the 3ds exports, crash after crash. Blasted ColladaMAX. I'm yet to isolate what it's blathering about.
:::::I've read it said that animations are rotation only - yet, it's appearant in the oni2 trailer, that the ID has a bobbing pelvis - or that it's using an alternate node set that simulates a bouncing center of gravity. I have observed that deleting the pelvis's animation keys allows OniSplit to progress to report errors about a calf, rather than the pelvis (something about -z rotation). I'm sorry I didn't take better notes. Between 3ds, colladaMAX, OniSplit, and life in general, I'm getting rather frayed. Point being, this might take a while --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 06:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Animations are rotation only...except for the pelvis. :p The pelvis can translate as much as it likes. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 13:07, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::I know the feeling, believe me. Eventually it seems like nothing works and you don't remember what you did when it was closest to working. Notes are in fact important for keeping track of what you try, but you already know that. Just don't feel that you have to solve these problems on your own. If you paste in some specific errors from OniSplit, for instance, Neo might be able to help you (might have to post your animated model too). We're getting into the least-proven area of modding now, so we'll just have to slog through in small steps together. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 13:27, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::You don't have to struggle alone, post the collada files, so we can take a look. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::::::::Thanks. Ok, [http://www.filefront.com/14507129/dae.rar 3 out of 4] - I accidentally overwrote stepa with a dae meant for trbs. nvm the filenames. Also, here's an [http://www.filefront.com/14507115/ID%20walking.xaf XML Animation file (*.xaf)], if any of you guys can import that. 0-19:start, 20-39:step a, 40-59:step b, 60-80:stop --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 22:46, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::Neo (Creator of OniSplit) has been notified about the problem, now we just wait until he looks at the dae files and figures out the problem. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

:::::::::Bobby: Can you export the TRAMs as FBX files? Neo is having some issues with the Collada files, somehow, they don't look right. The body seems to move up. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

[http://www.filefront.com/14513937/FBX%20varients.rar FBX variants.rar] Probably just need the one from the latest version (I think it's version variants), but had done them all last night anyhow. Exporting these never crashes 3ds - it'd be great if these could be accommodated by oniSplit. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 23:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

::These files are in the Collada format. Can you export the TRAMs so that there are in the .fbx format. Something like this: TRAMID_runstart.fbx [[User:EdT|EdT]]
:::Sorry about that - although I think the content is as it would be had I typed .fbx, or not appended an extension when exporting. I used 3ds's built in exporter for FileType: (*.fbx; *.dae). 2 plugins in one? Anyhow, here's [http://www.filefront.com/14514769/ascii%20TRAMID_runstart.fbx ascii TRAMID_runstart.fbx] and [http://www.filefront.com/14514791/not%20ascii%20TRAMID_runstart.fbx not ascii TRAMID_runstart.fbx], and these are the options:
:::http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w161/bobbysoon/exportoptions.jpg

::::You forgot to include the animation in the fbx file. I noticed the Animation box was not selected. Also, can you include the native .3ds file of the walking animation? I think I can open it up in Cheetah3D. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::::That would be one of my more special moments http://www.modacity.net/forums/styles/smilies/extra/downs.gif
:::::fbx with animation: [http://www.filefront.com/14515617/ascii%20ID%20walking.FBX ascii] [http://www.filefront.com/14515621/not-ascii%20ID%20walking.FBX not ascii] [http://www.filefront.com/14515615/ID%20walking.3DS 3ds]

:::::colladaMAX crash figured out (fingers crossed). I cleared smoothing groups, applied fresh, textureless materials, exported to .3ds, imported it back, and was then able to export with colladaMAX to dae with animations, without crashing.
:::::The -z error occured when the sample animation option was unchecked:
::::::"Sample animation: Enables time-sampling the animated parameters, within the Start and End time interval. One sample is taken per time unit. If this option is disabled, ColladaMax will attempt to export the animated parameters as key-frames."
:::::With it checked, OniSplit reports this:
::::::<nowiki>Importing D:\Oni\Edition\install\packages\21100Iron_Demon\oni\level0_Final\dae\TRAMID_run1stepa.DAE</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki>System.IndexOutOfRangeException: Index was outside the bounds of the array.</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.<>c__DisplayClass16.<ReadAnimationChannel>b__15(Node node)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.<>c__DisplayClass1d`1.<BindId>b__1c()</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.ReadRoot()</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.ReadFile(String filePath)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Totoro.AnimationDaeReader.Import(String filePath, String outputDirPath)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Program.CreateGeneric(String[] args)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Program.Main(String[] args)</nowiki>

animations, [http://www.filefront.com/14515935/per%20time.DAE time interval] and [http://www.filefront.com/14515931/per%20key.DAE key specific]
::::::Thanks for the files, I'm trying to fix this. Some more notes:
::::::-Some of the problems are caused by Z-up vs. Y-up. Converting geometry from Z-up to Y-up is easy but I seem to have problems converting animations (and Softimage seems to have the same problems)
::::::-Another problem is that ColladaMAX exports a type of animation interpolation that OniSplit does not handle (TCB). I'll add support for that if I can figure out what TCB means. Until then the "sample animation" option is a good workaround (and keep in mind that you need 60fps, not 30 like in your fbx exporter screenshot).
:::::::Autodesk Reference: TCB Controllers
::::::::''"TCB Controllers produce curve-based animation much like Bezier controllers. However, TCB controllers do not use tangent types or adjustable tangent handles. They use fields to adjust the Tension, Continuity, and Bias of the animation.''
::::::::''This controller works well as a Position controller in conjunction with the Motion panel > Trajectories display of an object. With sub-object keys turned on and the Key Info dialog for a key displayed (right-click and select Key Info on the selected key to display Key Info properties), you can change the parameters in the Key Info dialog and see the trajectory path change. This allows for very precise control of an object's trajectory with visual feedback.''

::::::::''Euler XYZ is now the default rotation controller in 3ds Max. The TCB Rotation controller was the default rotation controller for files created in versions 4 and earlier.''

::::::::''Tip: Euler XYZ behaves very differently than TCB rotations. Users upgrading from versions 4 or earlier might have difficulty adapting to the differences between these controllers. If you are used to working with TCB rotations, you can reassign it to be the default rotation controller. "''
:::::::I had noticed that 3ds has 2 kinds of keys per rotation/position. One kind lists only position and rotation keys when I right-click a key, and it's rotation curves don't show in the curve editor, while the other lists x, y, and z for position & rotation. The former appears to be TCB. I'm not sure how I ended up with TCB, but I believe I converted them by "collapsing transforms", and so here's another dae: [http://www.filefront.com/14519017/walking%20non-tcb.DAE non-tcb walking animation .dae] --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 18:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::-Autodesk has a free "FBX Converter" that can be used to convert from .fbx to .dae (and back). It can also convert from .3ds to .fbx. See if that can be used as an alternative to ColladaMAX. Download here: [http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=10775855 FBX Converter]
:::::::Unfortunately, the converted fbx->dae generates the same array bounds error. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 19:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::::I chatted with Neo earlier and that error has been fixed. But now he needs to work on the ZUP issue. [[User:EdT|EdT]]
::::::::Yes that one is fixed. I suggested the FBX Converter only as a workaround to ColladaMAX crashes. Couple of other things:
::::::::-I got it somewhat working by exporting uncompressed TRAMs instead of compressed ones.
::::::::-Those Collada files use "meter" as unit. Currently OniSplit ignores that so don't be surprised if the model looks very small when imported.
::::::::-The TRBSs might need to be reimported when a new version of OniSplit is out. The current one might have messed up the bone order.
::::::::-I'm curious if you ever tried to import an animation exported by OniSplit into Max and if it worked correctly.
::::::::[[User:Neo|Neo]]
:::::::::Yeah, some are good, and some are buggy. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 11:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::[http://www.filefront.com/14526495/Glitches.rar 3 glitchy anim imports. avi & key curve screenshots] --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 19:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::-I'd suggest that this animation discussion be moved to a different page. It's getting long and we've yet to see the end of it.
::::::[[User:Neo|Neo]]
:::::::Thanks for your hard work, Neo. Re: moving to a different page, technically this entire page's contents belong at [[AE_talk:Iron Demon]], but I was waiting until we were done talking before I moved it, so as not to disrupt anything. Anyway, moving all of this over there won't help the animation discussion being huge, so perhaps I should give this topic its own subpage. But I don't really think it's that big, yet, as long as you click on [edit] for this section only when editing. If you want, though, I will move it to a subpage now; otherwise I will wait until the section's gotten over, say, 20KB (it's just under 10KB now). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:12, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::moved from [[User_talk:Bobbysoon]] --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 17:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Does this look right? [http://cid-639aa31296681bfe.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Oni/id.wmv rendered TRAMper_time.oni]
[[User:Neo|Neo]]

Yeah, thats right, that's the runstart I made. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 10:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Can you tell me what kind of measure units you use in Max? The Collada file contains this:
<unit meter="10" name="meter"/>
but this doesn't look right, it's like saying that a meter contains 10 meters!!!
For the clip you saw yesterday I scaled the thing by 10 (for example the pelvis height in Collada was ~0.5 so it ends up as ~5 in Oni).

[[User:Neo|Neo]]

In 3ds's system unit setup, I got 1 unit == 10 meters. Perhaps it means meters*=10?
I had been not importing the dae's units, because that way, with the 10 meter setup, konoko comes out 5'7". Importing with the dae's units, she's a more comfortable-to-work-with 170 generic units tall, but also she's 170 meters tall :p - meh, metrics. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 18:31, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Bobbysoon

2009-09-14T21:43:35Z

Bobbysoon: /*AE:Iron Demon Development (temp/sandbox)*/

=AE:Iron Demon Development (temp/sandbox)=
An attemp to establish order in my head
This is what I'm gathering of what I need to do
Feel free to edit this
==TRBS==
===Consistency with Bungie's Iron Demon===
====Geometry====
Changes to be made to 17sec's model:
*Body/Head/Eye
:*Narrower body
:*Tapered base of the wings/arm shields protrusion from body's sides
:*Details where the arms meet the body?
:*Taper the face to the eye
:*Taper the back of the body to a more rounded point
:*Narrower Dynamo/badonkadonk
:*A heat-seeking missile pod on the back, pointing upward
:*Grenade launcher (chin gunpod)

*Arms
:Will the barrels be detached to PAR3?
:*Move the arms back
:*Round the arms more - almost half-teardrop - and a little thinner

*Feet
:*Blocky sole of foot is front half only. Needs a narrower claw-like heel, possibly part of calf rather than foot?
:*Foot shell sides same shape as foot's sides
:*Hoses behind the holes in the shinguards for the torches

====Texture====
*color correction

===References and Comparisons===
====Pics====
[[Image:Oni_Faces.jpg|thumb|740px]]

http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/Konoko%20runs%20from%20ID.jpg

http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20old%20size.jpg http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20new%20size.jpg

comparison of scale and textures, Bungie's with 17sec's model

http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20forward%20old.jpg http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20forward%20new.jpg

http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20old%20size.jpg http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20new%20new%20size%202.jpg

observations of descrepancies, Bungie's with 127.5% scale, modified

http://edt.oni2.net/temp/ID_Size.jpg

====Vids====
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLZ2hJZvrmo Second Oni Trailer]
*[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STMMqcpJuB0 ID clips in slow-motion]

===Final Nicification Checklist===
*No asymmetric quads
*No bad normals / smoothing
*Color correction

==TRAM==
*death anim will use knockdown_head and blownup AnimType
*Idle/walking/turning/running/sprinting(when un-armed)?
*Punch and kick TRAM will take care of emitting projectiles from the 3 "weapons"
*Stomp. Maybe some shockwaves from the feet as well.
*Aiming screens

User talk:Bobbysoon/Animation Discussion

2009-09-14T10:14:39Z

Bobbysoon: looks right

Working on a workflow for animation. Made a dependencies and xml browser to help me get with the program
It doesn't even use idle, does it? It's always running, right? So for starters I should work on anims from the run set? --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 19:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
::I think we need these animations:
:::-Idle - simple Iron Demon standing
:::-Turn left / Turn right - simple Iron Demon standing, but during this animation he rotates around his axis a bit left/right. Maybe you can give him a slight movement of legs to make it look better.
:::-Run forward left leg / Run forward right leg - these two will be alternating to make Iron Demon run forward. His "run" should look similar to Mutant Muro's movement ( slow and heavy ), but ID should move more robotic - like.
:::-Run backward left leg / Run backward right leg - just reversed versions of aforementioned, used for backpedaling
:::-Runstart forward / Runstart backward - transition animation, starts from idle, moves one leg a bit forward so it can smoothly transit to either left leg or right leg run animation. You can choose which one, that does not matter.
:::-Runstop forward / backward - opposite of those two above.
:I guess that should be enough for the beginning. Later we can add more. --[[User:Loser|Loser]] 20:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

bobbysoon, I watched your animation on YouTube as linked to above. Looks like you got the mechanics down perfectly. Now, help a confused guy out. Is that intended to be a walk or a run? And what did you mean about the model kneeling? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:24, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:That's walking. Here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS8Iiy2_Z-g side view], starting with kneeling and standing full height at the end. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 04:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

::Okay... so, dumb question time: why is he "kneeling"? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 14:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Cause that's it's no-anim using default pose. That's how the model was that I got, and I defaulted node rotations before attaching the mesh to them. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 16:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

::::Hmm, see, here's part of why I'm so confused: the ID does not seem to have lower legs; rather the upper legs connect to the feet with a rotating joint. Hence, I don't know what kneeling means because I don't consider the ID as having knees. Do you mean that the old ID stood up straighter than the new ID, i.e., the upper body was angled back more with respect to the feet? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::It's about .375 units taller standing up. The way it's legs fold, it's 'knees' are reversed, like a bird's. I'll try to make another TRBS, standing as default pose --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 20:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Bebuggeredly with the 3ds exports, crash after crash. Blasted ColladaMAX. I'm yet to isolate what it's blathering about.
:::::I've read it said that animations are rotation only - yet, it's appearant in the oni2 trailer, that the ID has a bobbing pelvis - or that it's using an alternate node set that simulates a bouncing center of gravity. I have observed that deleting the pelvis's animation keys allows OniSplit to progress to report errors about a calf, rather than the pelvis (something about -z rotation). I'm sorry I didn't take better notes. Between 3ds, colladaMAX, OniSplit, and life in general, I'm getting rather frayed. Point being, this might take a while --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 06:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Animations are rotation only...except for the pelvis. :p The pelvis can translate as much as it likes. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 13:07, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::I know the feeling, believe me. Eventually it seems like nothing works and you don't remember what you did when it was closest to working. Notes are in fact important for keeping track of what you try, but you already know that. Just don't feel that you have to solve these problems on your own. If you paste in some specific errors from OniSplit, for instance, Neo might be able to help you (might have to post your animated model too). We're getting into the least-proven area of modding now, so we'll just have to slog through in small steps together. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 13:27, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::You don't have to struggle alone, post the collada files, so we can take a look. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::::::::Thanks. Ok, [http://www.filefront.com/14507129/dae.rar 3 out of 4] - I accidentally overwrote stepa with a dae meant for trbs. nvm the filenames. Also, here's an [http://www.filefront.com/14507115/ID%20walking.xaf XML Animation file (*.xaf)], if any of you guys can import that. 0-19:start, 20-39:step a, 40-59:step b, 60-80:stop --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 22:46, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::Neo (Creator of OniSplit) has been notified about the problem, now we just wait until he looks at the dae files and figures out the problem. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

:::::::::Bobby: Can you export the TRAMs as FBX files? Neo is having some issues with the Collada files, somehow, they don't look right. The body seems to move up. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

[http://www.filefront.com/14513937/FBX%20varients.rar FBX variants.rar] Probably just need the one from the latest version (I think it's version variants), but had done them all last night anyhow. Exporting these never crashes 3ds - it'd be great if these could be accommodated by oniSplit. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 23:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

::These files are in the Collada format. Can you export the TRAMs so that there are in the .fbx format. Something like this: TRAMID_runstart.fbx [[User:EdT|EdT]]
:::Sorry about that - although I think the content is as it would be had I typed .fbx, or not appended an extension when exporting. I used 3ds's built in exporter for FileType: (*.fbx; *.dae). 2 plugins in one? Anyhow, here's [http://www.filefront.com/14514769/ascii%20TRAMID_runstart.fbx ascii TRAMID_runstart.fbx] and [http://www.filefront.com/14514791/not%20ascii%20TRAMID_runstart.fbx not ascii TRAMID_runstart.fbx], and these are the options:
:::http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w161/bobbysoon/exportoptions.jpg

::::You forgot to include the animation in the fbx file. I noticed the Animation box was not selected. Also, can you include the native .3ds file of the walking animation? I think I can open it up in Cheetah3D. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::::That would be one of my more special moments http://www.modacity.net/forums/styles/smilies/extra/downs.gif
:::::fbx with animation: [http://www.filefront.com/14515617/ascii%20ID%20walking.FBX ascii] [http://www.filefront.com/14515621/not-ascii%20ID%20walking.FBX not ascii] [http://www.filefront.com/14515615/ID%20walking.3DS 3ds]

:::::colladaMAX crash figured out (fingers crossed). I cleared smoothing groups, applied fresh, textureless materials, exported to .3ds, imported it back, and was then able to export with colladaMAX to dae with animations, without crashing.
:::::The -z error occured when the sample animation option was unchecked:
::::::"Sample animation: Enables time-sampling the animated parameters, within the Start and End time interval. One sample is taken per time unit. If this option is disabled, ColladaMax will attempt to export the animated parameters as key-frames."
:::::With it checked, OniSplit reports this:
::::::<nowiki>Importing D:\Oni\Edition\install\packages\21100Iron_Demon\oni\level0_Final\dae\TRAMID_run1stepa.DAE</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki>System.IndexOutOfRangeException: Index was outside the bounds of the array.</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.<>c__DisplayClass16.<ReadAnimationChannel>b__15(Node node)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.<>c__DisplayClass1d`1.<BindId>b__1c()</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.ReadRoot()</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.ReadFile(String filePath)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Totoro.AnimationDaeReader.Import(String filePath, String outputDirPath)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Program.CreateGeneric(String[] args)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Program.Main(String[] args)</nowiki>

animations, [http://www.filefront.com/14515935/per%20time.DAE time interval] and [http://www.filefront.com/14515931/per%20key.DAE key specific]
::::::Thanks for the files, I'm trying to fix this. Some more notes:
::::::-Some of the problems are caused by Z-up vs. Y-up. Converting geometry from Z-up to Y-up is easy but I seem to have problems converting animations (and Softimage seems to have the same problems)
::::::-Another problem is that ColladaMAX exports a type of animation interpolation that OniSplit does not handle (TCB). I'll add support for that if I can figure out what TCB means. Until then the "sample animation" option is a good workaround (and keep in mind that you need 60fps, not 30 like in your fbx exporter screenshot).
:::::::Autodesk Reference: TCB Controllers
::::::::''"TCB Controllers produce curve-based animation much like Bezier controllers. However, TCB controllers do not use tangent types or adjustable tangent handles. They use fields to adjust the Tension, Continuity, and Bias of the animation.''
::::::::''This controller works well as a Position controller in conjunction with the Motion panel > Trajectories display of an object. With sub-object keys turned on and the Key Info dialog for a key displayed (right-click and select Key Info on the selected key to display Key Info properties), you can change the parameters in the Key Info dialog and see the trajectory path change. This allows for very precise control of an object's trajectory with visual feedback.''

::::::::''Euler XYZ is now the default rotation controller in 3ds Max. The TCB Rotation controller was the default rotation controller for files created in versions 4 and earlier.''

::::::::''Tip: Euler XYZ behaves very differently than TCB rotations. Users upgrading from versions 4 or earlier might have difficulty adapting to the differences between these controllers. If you are used to working with TCB rotations, you can reassign it to be the default rotation controller. "''
:::::::I had noticed that 3ds has 2 kinds of keys per rotation/position. One kind lists only position and rotation keys when I right-click a key, and it's rotation curves don't show in the curve editor, while the other lists x, y, and z for position & rotation. The former appears to be TCB. I'm not sure how I ended up with TCB, but I believe I converted them by "collapsing transforms", and so here's another dae: [http://www.filefront.com/14519017/walking%20non-tcb.DAE non-tcb walking animation .dae] --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 18:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::-Autodesk has a free "FBX Converter" that can be used to convert from .fbx to .dae (and back). It can also convert from .3ds to .fbx. See if that can be used as an alternative to ColladaMAX. Download here: [http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=10775855 FBX Converter]
:::::::Unfortunately, the converted fbx->dae generates the same array bounds error. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 19:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::::I chatted with Neo earlier and that error has been fixed. But now he needs to work on the ZUP issue. [[User:EdT|EdT]]
::::::::Yes that one is fixed. I suggested the FBX Converter only as a workaround to ColladaMAX crashes. Couple of other things:
::::::::-I got it somewhat working by exporting uncompressed TRAMs instead of compressed ones.
::::::::-Those Collada files use "meter" as unit. Currently OniSplit ignores that so don't be surprised if the model looks very small when imported.
::::::::-The TRBSs might need to be reimported when a new version of OniSplit is out. The current one might have messed up the bone order.
::::::::-I'm curious if you ever tried to import an animation exported by OniSplit into Max and if it worked correctly.
::::::::[[User:Neo|Neo]]
:::::::::Yeah, some are good, and some are buggy. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 11:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::[http://www.filefront.com/14526495/Glitches.rar 3 glitchy anim imports. avi & key curve screenshots] --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 19:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::-I'd suggest that this animation discussion be moved to a different page. It's getting long and we've yet to see the end of it.
::::::[[User:Neo|Neo]]
:::::::Thanks for your hard work, Neo. Re: moving to a different page, technically this entire page's contents belong at [[AE_talk:Iron Demon]], but I was waiting until we were done talking before I moved it, so as not to disrupt anything. Anyway, moving all of this over there won't help the animation discussion being huge, so perhaps I should give this topic its own subpage. But I don't really think it's that big, yet, as long as you click on [edit] for this section only when editing. If you want, though, I will move it to a subpage now; otherwise I will wait until the section's gotten over, say, 20KB (it's just under 10KB now). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:12, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::moved from [[User_talk:Bobbysoon]] --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 17:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Does this look right? [http://cid-639aa31296681bfe.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Oni/id.wmv rendered TRAMper_time.oni]
[[User:Neo|Neo]]

Yeah, thats right, that's the runstart I made. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 10:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Bobbysoon

2009-09-13T20:30:49Z

Bobbysoon: /* Explosion Discussion */ Excellent! Death anim possible?

=Iron Demon creation related=
==Model/Outline==
:Closest thing to a height comparison between Konoko and the original ID:

:http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/Konoko%20runs%20from%20ID.jpg (I know, it's tiny)

:The perspective there makes it hard to judge, but I'd say the current model is basically the same height. What do y'all think? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

::Okay, EdT encouraged me to look at the trailer shot of the ID in the RSB lobby, and he even wrote a script to set the relevant shot up in Oni, so here's a more useful comparison:

::http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20old%20size.jpg http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20new%20size.jpg

::Going by this, I would personally say it needs to be sized up by 25%-30%. P.S.: I just want to draw bobbysoon's attention to the textures, notice how they are more "weighty" on the old ID. I think it's a combination of being a darker gray and having more "shading" built into the texture to make up for Oni's anemic lighting system. I know you weren't probably planning on the current textures being final anyway; just wanted to take advantage of the comparison shot to point that out. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:27, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Ok, 127.5% it is then, and I'll render in shadows, and see about that darker grey.
:::[http://www.filefront.com/14485651/ID%20TRBS%20dae%20TXMP_chest.rar ID TRBS dae TXMP_chest.rar] Most textures ended up on the wrong parts, idk why. Maybe export order of objects. Much clone/delete mesh/attach was involved. I'll shuffle around the TRMA and see. I ''tink'' I'm losing internet today, idk, so just in case I want to get el 127.5% out asap. Maybe I can get some animations (dae at least) done before then.
:::--[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 20:45, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: I found the problem with the mixed up textures. It has to do with the ID's parent-child relationship.

:::: http://edt.oni2.net/temp/IDmisplaced.jpg

:::::Re-ordered nodes, and fixed arm/biceps reference in TRMA: [http://www.filefront.com/14488981/level0_Final.rar/ TRBS, TRMA, and a couple TXMPs] - not that I re-rendered for the color correction yet. I modified the mesh of the body a little. How does it look? --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]]

::::::I like the animated display on the back, nice touch. Although it is partway in the ground until EdT adjusts the height again, the larger ID seems to be more imposing. However, while EdT and I were comparing the new size to the original ID, we noticed some other discrepancies that probably were always there in the model you inherited. To wit:

:::::::http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20forward%20old.jpg http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20forward%20new.jpg
:::::#The first thing that jumped out at us in the first comparison is that the arms are further forward on the new model.
:::::#Also, the head is now larger and more square. In fact, the old face appears to taper in a diagonal line up towards the eye. This seems odd at first, but makes sense in terms of placing more of an emphasis on the eye as the foremost point on the head rather than just a circle set in a slab.
:::::#The forearms (the things with the barrels sticking out of them) are a bit thicker now.
:::::#:http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20old%20size.jpg http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20new%20new%20size%202.jpg (new ID has its feet below the floor)
:::::#From the walkway, one can see that the forearms used to have a flatter curve across the tops and taper off at the back. We think they're also shorter on the old ID, but obviously the tapering off of the arms is probably adding to that impression.
:::::#The head may be a tad wider now across the top, but it definitely used to taper off more at the back, on the old model.

::::::Do you think you can fix these issues? I know they aren't your fault, sorry to make more work for you, but I think the ID will look sleeker with these changes. And let us know if you aren't seeing something the way we are. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 22:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::My bad - I didn't like the concave on the rear tip's underside, and so I lopped it. Looks to me, with a better look at that pic on the left, that it should have instead been fleshed out under the tail.
:::::::The foot-shield-shell thing (aka: calf) side housing needs correction too, behind and along side the shin guard where the flame ports are.
:::::::I see what you mean about it's face. I thought that was a smoothing glitch, before, but now I see what you pointed out - slightly pointy towards the eye. Less slabby is good, but it's head is basic rounded square, face-on.
:::::::Now it looks too big. Thing is, it's kneeling in that pose. It can't drop down much more from there - whereas, the original one is up and walking.
:::::::and I just exported animations for it too ): - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht7KrEaImzo youtube] good exercise anyhow --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]]

::::::::The walking animation is awesome! Can't wait to try it in the game. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::::::Just to add a little more information, if you look at the following screenshot:
::::::http://edt.oni2.net/temp/ID_Size.jpg
::::::I positioned the ID as close as I could to the one in the trailer. From this point of view, the height looks correct, but, the ID's depth (From the front to the back) is too long, and the width could be slightly narrower. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

:::::::Nice comparisons, btw. Excellent feedback, all. This definately gives me something to work with
:::::::Now, about the scale... on a scale of original to 130%? --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]]

::::::::Don't know if anyone else can say anything about scale, but for me, because the proportions of the ID will change when those corrections are made, I don't think I will be able to accurately compare the current model's scale to the old one until then.
::::::::My general impression, though, is that the current model's top is too large, but that the feet are fine. So if one focuses first on the top, the whole model seems too large, but if one starts at the feet, the conclusion one reaches is that the head and arms are too big. I've been viewing things from the "feet first" perspective, which is why I listed a bunch of "make this smaller" corrections for the top half and none for the feet. The other approach would of course be to scale the whole thing down and then scale the feet up. But I figured, "Let's use the feet as our standard ruler and modify what is out of proportion to the feet".
::::::::P.S.: I take back what I said about the head width in #5, there's no way it's too wide across the top. But it's definitely longer than the old head. As I mentioned, adding some kind of tapering from underneath on the back of the head will probably help too. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::I disagree with your taking back #5 - I think it is a bit too wide, and I think it's only thicker along the back half of it's top in the video. It does look to me like the wings/arm-shields are meant to appear as being part of the body - that the wing's base tapers into the body. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 05:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::::Re: #5, you might be right about me being right before I said was wrong :D As for the arm-shields, you're right; I can see in that movie of yours that they angle into the body in the original model, rather than being straight panels (the whole shields are also slanted a bit more vertically). Hopefully we've finally figured it all out now. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:01, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::Aknowleged.
:::::::::I made this to get a better look at the trailer's ID clips: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STMMqcpJuB0 ID clips in slow-motion] One thing I noticed is the 'dynamo'/fannypack should be shorter by about half. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 22:46, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::Indeed, good catch. It will look better when it's shorter, too. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 23:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

==Weapons==
Loser and I had a chat and came up with a tentative plan for the ID's weapons:
* What weapons will the mech have?
:* The chainguns, obviously. Per a chat with EdT, we should be able to give the ID infinite ammo to we don't have to worry about reloading.
:* Homing missile launcher. Keeps Konoko on her toes even when she isn't in the ID's sights.
:* Gas grenade launcher. For when the mech does not have a line of sight to the enemy but knows where they are hiding and wants to smoke them out. The gas is toxic enough that you won't want to hang around if a 'nade gets lobbed next to the thing you're hiding behind.
:* Flamethrower. A close- or mid-range attack if the player lets the ID get too close, or stupidly charges the ID to get inside the range of its chainguns.
:* Tesla discharge field. Another close-range attack (for story purposes it could be a defense against people who would try to get into the mech). Used alternatingly in place of flamethrower or else at even closer distances. Forms a sphere of electricity around the mech.

* Where will the weapons be on the mech?
:* Chainguns are a "duh", but what about the other weapons? (Edit: Actually, Loser brought up the idea of making the barrels PAR3s attached to the model, so they can rotate when they fire, is that doable?)
:* The homing missile launcher could be mounted on the back of the ID, pointing up (could be a simple hole in the existing model's upper back) because it would allow firing in all directions, and also, it would simply look cool for the missile to fire up, and come arcing down to chase Konoko around corners as she runs.
:* The chin gun (is it still there?) could be altered to look like it can fire gas grenades.
:* The flamethrower should be placed low on the body, since flames rise. Perhaps we can use the holes in the leg plates for this. By simply adding hoses that attach from the back of the holes to the feet, we would demonstrate where the fuel comes from ([http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20plus%20hoses.jpg incredibly crude sample illustration]).
:* The electric field doesn't need to be based in some physical aspect of the model (but personally I wonder what that [[wikipedia:Dynamo|cylinder]] attached to its back with warning stripes does...) :-3 --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:30, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

:I've made the chainguns the wrists, centered to spin. The wrists are the large forarms. The biceps are the arm-axis under the shield, and the shoulders are the shields over the arms, which are linked to the neck, 'cause that's how I found it...
:Some recoil can occur with the whole arm kicking back 5 degrees or so
:I did drop the gunpod, but I'm expecting to rework the model and textures again for such accommodations
:I've made TRBS and TXMPs. Next, an idle animation
:*What's the simplest way to get this in-game?
:*What's with the %2Fs in the names? I see in the xml those names imply folders. are those necessary?
:*Maybe I should just upload the [http://www.filefront.com/14467707/_IronDemon-dae.rar/ dae] and [http://www.filefront.com/14467713/images.rar/ tga] and let you guys get it in game properly

==TRAM Discussion==

So close:

EDIT Removed old screenshot showing Iron Demon partly in the ground. Error in TRAM data.

[[User:EdT|EdT]]

He's sitting on his root node. It's feet are at ground level in 3dsworld - is it like that because it doesn't have an idle animation? Or is that because was I wrong about the neck.shoulders linkage? I'm only 90% positive about that one

Sorry, I'll get you a replacement dae with correct texture names soon as 3ds doesn't crash when I export dae DX

Re-rendering those textures really did a number on them, didn't it?
--[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 03:57, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Bobbysoon,

Corrected TRAM heights (well its still slightly off the ground but I ran out of time):

http://edt.oni2.net/images/bobbysoon_ID.jpg

Here is a package for your Iron Demon, there is a read me with instructions: http://edt.oni2.net/temp/Iron_Demon_Package.zip

Don't worry about the names of the textures, I took care of that. I have included idle, run, walk animations. All of them have no rotation of the body parts, so the Iron Demon moves as a single object. So currently, the ID will follow you around and if you shapeshift to the ID you can move around.

Great job on the Iron Demon.

[[User:EdT|EdT]]

:I guess the next step is to get a walking animation made, eh? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:58, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, and thanks for the package - exactly what I needed
I somehow compromised my 3ds file, but extracting from that last -create:trbs solves that. Animatin time

==Explosion Discussion==

WOOT! The Iron Demon goes boom: http://edt.oni2.net/temp/ID_Boom.wmv

[[User:EdT|EdT]]
:Pretty cool, EdT -- now, is that the explosion we were looking at yesterday? Because I don't see any smoking debris flying away from the scene.... --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:20, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

::Updated the video with the full power of the env_bomb_e01 particle. I couldn't get it to work on its own, so I used the mad_e01 (Mad Bomber's particle) as the basis, they copied the links from the env_bomb to mad_e01, the last explosion is from the mad bomber's particle, so sometimes, you can see the boot as one of the debries :-) [[User:EdT|EdT]]

:::Looking great. I am inclined to say that we should actually drop the shockwave effect, as it seems inappropriate for a smallish mech's destruction. The explosion was intended for a powerful bomb that damages BGI HQ, after all, so I think the shockwave is a tad overkill for the ID. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:27, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

::::I like the shockwave myself, though it could be downsized a little bit. Also, make the fire particles match closer to the actual mech's size. Thiugh it might be fine with the resize it needs anyways. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 16:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::Well, if the shockwave could just not sweep over the entire map, I would be happier. Would it look good, though, if it faded out before getting really huge? I don't know how else we would make it smaller. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::I had a chat with Loser yesterday and he will work on the explosion. So we can leave it in his hands :-) [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::::::I didn't realize it was that huge. Just add the <FadeToDeath> tag (or whatever its called) to the <Start> tag of the particle. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 17:59, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

[http://http.loser.oni2.net/Anniversary/ID_explo_final_more_debris.zip HERE] are files for Iron Demon explosion. Video demonstration [http://http.loser.oni2.net/Videos/ID_explo_final.wmv HERE]. UPDATED FILES - more debris is spawned and it flies a bit slower than before ( didn't like it )
:I have read that Iron demon was scaled. Somebody will have to scale "torn off" particles and position them so they spawn at respective places to make it look like these are really torn "arms" and "legs" of Iron Demon.
::ID_explo_e02 - here you can set positions ( in respective emitters ) where "torn off parts" particles are spawned.
::ID_explo_p03 - torn off arms
::ID:explo_p04 - torn off foot which is standing then explodes
::ID_explo_p05 - torn off foot which is insanely riding around then explodes

That should be all you have to resize, rest should fit even if ID model is a bit larger. --[[User:Loser|Loser]] 19:54, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

:Wow, thats really cool! Nice work! Is there a death animation we can give it? I think a shaking/spazzing animation would be good. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 20:30, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

==Animation Discussion==
moved to [[User_talk:Bobbysoon/Animation_Discussion]]

= Forumish disorder =
I see, in the [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLZ2hJZvrmo Second Oni Trailer], @1:25, the Iron Demon has a weapon variant on it's right arm. How do we do this?

--[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 20:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
:Just attach the barrel to the arm. No need to worry about the weapon varients, as the demon probably won't use a real gun. As I said below, a dummy weapon will be the way to go. I'll do all of the particle work. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 21:45, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

:Rather than guess, I'll let someone more knowledgeable answer the modeling questions. I don't know of the Iron Demon appearing anywhere else beyond what is found on the [[Iron Demon]] page. I'm pretty sure there's no video of it, at the very least (unless you count [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa-h6lXQ-p4 this] fan product). As to the Iron Demon's secondary weapon, it seems to be the early Scram Cannon that Konoko is using at 1:05 and 1:54. It might make more sense to have an alternate-firing mode that uses built-in rocket launchers on the arms, rather than trying to reproduce the gun they tacked somewhat strangely onto the model in the trailer. As to how to give the ID distinct weapons and cordon them off from the weapons that other characters can cycle through (and vice versa), that's a good question I hadn't thought of, but I know EdT was looking into the weapon side of things.... --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:44, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

perhaps we could improve upon it's wielding of a weapon, such as an aesthetically appealing port/clamp, if built-in and not dropping weapons aren't possible --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 21:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

::I think you're going to be the trailblazer in this area of Oni Modding. :-) I have limited experience with 3D models, so I don't know if the hierarchy can be changed, but my guess is that you can't. The Oni engine is probably expecting a certain parent child relationship with each of the body parts. As regards the names, I suppose you could make a quick test of a current model, change the part names and see what happens. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::You should be able to rename the bones, the names are used by OniSplit only to ensure that the children of a bone have the same order as in the original Oni skeleton. As for changing the hierarchy, hmm, that should work in theory, after all that's why [[TRIA]] exists. However in practice the engine might use hard coded bone indices. For example I have no idea how the engine knows which bone to attach a weapon to, it's not like in [[TRIA]] or somewhere else there's a flags that tells "this is the right hand". [[User:Neo|Neo]]
:::If all else fails, we can use particle based attacks. We could have up to six different attacks (P, K, J+P, J+K, C+P, C+K), or more if we utilized the combo system sneakily, so its not a huge problem. Recoil would be accomplished with a custom attack animation. These "weapons" would be completely built in though. I'm not sure how we would accomplish aiming though. The other possibility is to give it a dummy weapon and give the recoil animations particle attacks. We would be limited to two aiming attacks and two non aiming attacks though. (Using primary fire, secondary fire, jump, and crouch). We can burn those bridges when we come to them I suppose. When I get home I'll have to test out some AI behavior. Also, an image of the bone structure you are using might be nice. Having extra bones for a "vulnerable" part or retractable weapon would be cool. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 14:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Vulnerable parts might also be doable with 3D particles. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:03, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Negatory. The only way to do it is with a seperate eye\head bone. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 21:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

*pelvis
**thighs
***boots
****feet
**body
***cannons
****cannon barrels
***gunpod arm
****gunpod
*****gunpod barrel
*remaining nodes:4, or 5 - I don't think the gunpod really needs recoil action

I found out how to render new textures from the old ones! Yay! Usefull when re-grouping mesh parts
--[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 21:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

:Looks good. Might I suggest an actual head so it can turn and look at things? [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 21:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

::That would be it's body, assuming the red thing on it's front is it's eye [[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 23:01, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
::For proof that the torso's also the "head", or face, see the collage of Lorraine's face portraits [[:Image:Oni_Faces.jpg|here]]. :-3 --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
::It appears to be rotated. So then, the eye is it's head --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 01:41, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments from geyser, by email to EdT:

"
Note that, during an animation, bones can only *rotate*
with respect to each other, so parallel shift, like recoil
or a retractable gun pod, can only be implemented in a
rather hackish way (as a rotation with respect to a center
that is very far away from the character's body parts). I'd
rather suggest to forget about the chin-mounted cannon
(which is an original invention by Seventeen Seconds,
and doesn't really put the chainguns to shame at all).
It may be useful to compensate for the Iron Demon's
limited ability to rotate, but the point is moot in the
absence of any animation at all. Forget it for now.

As for the chainguns, I'd allow them to rotate on their
long axis, just the way miniguns or Gatling guns do.
Note that in the original concept the guns have three
barrels each, as opposed to 17secs's rendition, and
I think we should bring back that aspect of the model.

I think it's too early to think of the weapons, anyway.
There's plenty of stuff to do on the animation front.

2)
Bobbysoon's comment on inconsistent units is relevant,
but incorrect. Oni's world units are decimeters, and so is
the output of OniSplit: centimeters have nothing to do with
it. The problem is that early versions of the exporter got the
the meaning of the "meter" factor wrong. This will be fixed.

3)
I wouldn't spend any time on weapons right now. The Iron
Demon is worthless unless it has a convincing walk/turn
mechanism. And if he is essentially a stationary turret,
then weapon attachment is a snap anyway (cf camera).
Therefore I suggest you guys concentrate on the lower
body animation (shifting weight from one leg to the other,
walking, turning, stomping/kicking/shockwave attacks).

The upper body can be kept rigid at this point, and its
hierarchy is irrelevant. I'd keep it consistent with Oni's
generic skeleton, though, because Neo is right about
the weapon attachment: the bone index is determined
based on a mere flag in ONCC settings. The position
of the gun is snapped to the bone that has either the
index 18 or 14: this is hardcoded, and the best way
to ensure predictable behavior is to keep everything
consistent with the generic hierarchy of body parts.
Likewise, renaming bones is a bad idea, especially
if it's only a matter of personal convenience. Point
is, the modeling tool will sort siblings by name and
this will affect their order in the COLLADA file, and
this in turn will affect the order in which the bones
are stored in Oni, hence, again, a possibly broken
weapon attachment. Unless Bobbysoon is already
quite confident with the rigging and animating of
Oni's regular humanoids, I wouldn't advise him to
seek out any customization at all; it just isn't fair.
If he sticks to the usual bone names and hierarchy,
everything should be fine.

4)
I understand that Bobbysoon feels like modifying the
hierarchy of the skeleton, but this can and must be
avoided. The structure of the upper body is actually
quite rigid, and the animations will be few, so it is
quite possible (although not necessarily intuitive) to
design an animation scheme that is consistent with
the topology of Oni's generic "humanoid" skeleton.
The relative placement of the body parts will require
some creativity, as well as all the relative rotations,
but modifying the hierarchy is right out of question,
at least until Neo or I write up something definitive
about weapon attachment and aiming screens: it
is important to understand that the basic animating
will involve aiming screens and turning animations;
Bobbysoon should come to terms with this ASAP.

Bottom line: keep the upper body rigid, and focus
on the lower body. Start with weight-shifting from
one leg to the other, because that will be the main
ingredient of walking for a robot of that size (hence
the massive feet), and also of aiming and turning.
I might provide some illustrations of what I mean,
but I have no clear idea of my free time right now.

5)
Another thing that needs to be done is cosmetics.
Seventeen Seconds's model has some non-planar
quads that have been triangulated in inconsistent
ways on the left and right side of the model: these
should be fixed. More generally, normals will need
some more work: they should be recomputed using
hard edges where appropriate, and also angle-based
weights for adjacent polygons, for a better look ^_^

I know this is overly technical, but Bobbysoon may
know what I'm talking about. I'm not sure 3DS Max
supports angle-weighted normals; Mod Tool does." -- [[User:EdT|EdT]]

:Were you taking notes, Bobbysoon? There will be a test later :0) Anyway, I just wanted to throw some thoughts out there:
:* Let's not forget the unused walking sounds for the Iron Demon once we have an animation: [http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID_sounds.zip].
:* I think the Iron Demon definitely needs an additional weapon beyond the chainguns. We have to think ahead about that now, as it will affect the model. I propose a heat-seeking missile pod on the back, pointing upward. This would prevent the battle from becoming a simple game of "stay out of the ID's line of sight" and throw a wild card out there once in a while for Konoko to deal with. Assuming we can train the AI to use it correctly.
:* Has anyone given thought to the fact that the two guns are parallel to each other? This means that aiming at a point in-between the guns is impossible unless the arms can turn inward and outward. More obviously, the arms also need upward-downward range, in case Konoko is fighting it from a walkway like in the trailer.
:All that being said, I agree with geyser that walking should probably be the priority. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

*The eye will be it's head then. Sounds good to me. I'll model it a sphere, unless it should be uv animated? Is that possible?

*I think I've fixed it's geometry errors, but we'll see

*How does this look? [http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w161/bobbysoon/Gatling.jpg Gatling] That added some polys. Now it's at 3004 triangles, 1615 verts

*ColladaMAX has an option to export normals. I got a basic idea of what they're about - I think I'd need to calculate them somehow (i think i've seen a script for this) after applying smoothing groups. I'm not too great with the smoothing though.

*I'll use the default structure and names. Point taken about the skeletal structure, especially after noticing the shoulders are linked to the neck D=.

*the TRAS aiming screen closely resembles a section of Halo's model_animations tag. [http://wiki.oni2.net/OBD:TRAS This] in Oni is like [http://forum.halomaps.org/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=24629 this] in Halo, which I've done.
*:If I recall correctly, there were 2 types of aiming/looking overlays. Referring to that information in application to a particular type yielded undesired results - axis reversals. So I wonder just how similar these engines are. Some of the provided mapping of halo's engine may be useful with oni.

*could ai weapon systems be attached to the ID? Or devices? I'm guessing the Deadly Brain was a device. A similar device (in function, not form of course) would be interesting

*If at all possible, but probably infeasable, I thought it might be interesting to have the chin pod be a lasor that paints a dot, which the rockets home in on. Could a projectile impact (the painted dot) spawn a character of a 3rd team? The missile pod would be a 4th team, out to get only the 3rd team.

*having the cannons be attached characters could also solve the parallel barrels problem. Not that it's a problem if the rounds are explosive!

--[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 01:41, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

:*There's no capacity in Oni for animated UV maps AFAIK, although animated textures are possible (but on people? not totally sure).
:*The gatlings look great to me. The polys/verts sound fine.
:*geyser's point 5 is rather nitpicky, so if it's labor-intensive, don't knock yourself out worrying about normals on a model with such minimalist texturing, it can't be that noticeable of a difference, can it?
:*Sorry, I didn't get your question about an AI being attached to the ID; I mean, it will definitely have some AI profile or else it won't do anything, but beyond that, you lost me.
:*The laser sounds tricky, but fake characters may not even be needed to pull it off; Oni's particle system is probably the most sophisticated part of the engine, so perhaps the laser dot particle can attract the missile particle. However, in terms of gameplay, it seems that it would defeat the purpose of the homing missile if the ID had to face a location to aim a missile there. Then we're back to just staying out of its sights all the time. Well, that's my opinion, anyway.
:--[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

::*I mean, characters attached to a character, like attaching several TCTF characters to Konoko, that would engage enemies around her, independent of her targeting.
::*Then scrolling text in [http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w161/bobbysoon/scrollText.jpg this] green LED display ''might'' be possible. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]]

:::*Animated textures are possible on characters. Ask 'dox. :)
::::*EdT drew my attention to this. So yeah, [http://paradox.oni2.net/temp/TXMPID_mid.zip here] is a test/demo/whatever. (Was done in PS. Fixed vector mask and moved text 4 pixel per image.) -'dox
:::::*Excellent! I'm assigning the LED geometry to the previously null chest node. I batch cropped and sized up LED strip to 16x128 in photoshop.
::::::*Having trouble rebuilding the animated txmp. How do you do that? --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 04:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::*Your xml and tga files should be in same folder. Xml looks inside like this:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Oni Version="0.9.41.0">
<Texture>
<Flags>HasMipMaps AnimUseLocalTime</Flags>
<Format>DXT1</Format>
<Speed>4</Speed>
<Image>TXMPID_mid_000.tga</Image>
<Image>TXMPID_mid_001.tga</Image>
...
</Texture>
</Oni>

onisplit command:
onisplit -create ONI_folder XML_plus_TGA_folder/TXMPID_mid.xml
- 'dox

:::*Laser dot would be kind of meh. I could make one, but you wouldn't be able to see it. We'll see when I get home. But I can do guided missles, don't worry ^_^.
:::*On the guns not aiming at the same place: don't worry. We can aim to the left and the right using the targeting vectors of the ONWC, for each weapon mode. Please, don't worry about making the weapons. Just give me a spec of whatever you want them to do, and I can make it. Also, look in the comic, and see what weapons the Demon uses there. *sigh* I'll have to do up a railgun weapon sometime here, to fight this bastard. :P
:::*Also, we can have an extending gun pod, using attached particles. ^_^
:::*I wish I was home now, I want to work on this. I probably won't be able to respond for another week, when I get home, unfortunately. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 02:25, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

::::*Re: what weapon will be used against the Iron Demon... [http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20&%20Rla.jpg] ^_^
::::*"look in the comic, and see what weapons the Demon uses there". You really don't want to know. Do you? Okay, [[:image:Oni_Comic_Issue_1_p23.jpg|here]], don't say I didn't warn you. Konoko then magically turns her pistol into a rocket launcher on page 3 of issue 2 and does [[:Image:Oni_Comic_Issue_2_p4.jpg|this]]. At least they got that last part right. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::She sees it on the ground. Go back a page or two. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 16:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Bobbysoon/Animation Discussion

2009-09-13T19:31:54Z

Bobbysoon: 3 glitchy anim imports. avi & key curve screenshots

User talk:Bobbysoon/Animation Discussion

2009-09-13T11:02:25Z

Bobbysoon:

Working on a workflow for animation. Made a dependencies and xml browser to help me get with the program
It doesn't even use idle, does it? It's always running, right? So for starters I should work on anims from the run set? --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 19:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
::I think we need these animations:
:::-Idle - simple Iron Demon standing
:::-Turn left / Turn right - simple Iron Demon standing, but during this animation he rotates around his axis a bit left/right. Maybe you can give him a slight movement of legs to make it look better.
:::-Run forward left leg / Run forward right leg - these two will be alternating to make Iron Demon run forward. His "run" should look similar to Mutant Muro's movement ( slow and heavy ), but ID should move more robotic - like.
:::-Run backward left leg / Run backward right leg - just reversed versions of aforementioned, used for backpedaling
:::-Runstart forward / Runstart backward - transition animation, starts from idle, moves one leg a bit forward so it can smoothly transit to either left leg or right leg run animation. You can choose which one, that does not matter.
:::-Runstop forward / backward - opposite of those two above.
:I guess that should be enough for the beginning. Later we can add more. --[[User:Loser|Loser]] 20:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

bobbysoon, I watched your animation on YouTube as linked to above. Looks like you got the mechanics down perfectly. Now, help a confused guy out. Is that intended to be a walk or a run? And what did you mean about the model kneeling? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:24, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:That's walking. Here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS8Iiy2_Z-g side view], starting with kneeling and standing full height at the end. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 04:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

::Okay... so, dumb question time: why is he "kneeling"? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 14:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Cause that's it's no-anim using default pose. That's how the model was that I got, and I defaulted node rotations before attaching the mesh to them. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 16:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

::::Hmm, see, here's part of why I'm so confused: the ID does not seem to have lower legs; rather the upper legs connect to the feet with a rotating joint. Hence, I don't know what kneeling means because I don't consider the ID as having knees. Do you mean that the old ID stood up straighter than the new ID, i.e., the upper body was angled back more with respect to the feet? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::It's about .375 units taller standing up. The way it's legs fold, it's 'knees' are reversed, like a bird's. I'll try to make another TRBS, standing as default pose --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 20:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Bebuggeredly with the 3ds exports, crash after crash. Blasted ColladaMAX. I'm yet to isolate what it's blathering about.
:::::I've read it said that animations are rotation only - yet, it's appearant in the oni2 trailer, that the ID has a bobbing pelvis - or that it's using an alternate node set that simulates a bouncing center of gravity. I have observed that deleting the pelvis's animation keys allows OniSplit to progress to report errors about a calf, rather than the pelvis (something about -z rotation). I'm sorry I didn't take better notes. Between 3ds, colladaMAX, OniSplit, and life in general, I'm getting rather frayed. Point being, this might take a while --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 06:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Animations are rotation only...except for the pelvis. :p The pelvis can translate as much as it likes. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 13:07, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::I know the feeling, believe me. Eventually it seems like nothing works and you don't remember what you did when it was closest to working. Notes are in fact important for keeping track of what you try, but you already know that. Just don't feel that you have to solve these problems on your own. If you paste in some specific errors from OniSplit, for instance, Neo might be able to help you (might have to post your animated model too). We're getting into the least-proven area of modding now, so we'll just have to slog through in small steps together. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 13:27, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::You don't have to struggle alone, post the collada files, so we can take a look. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::::::::Thanks. Ok, [http://www.filefront.com/14507129/dae.rar 3 out of 4] - I accidentally overwrote stepa with a dae meant for trbs. nvm the filenames. Also, here's an [http://www.filefront.com/14507115/ID%20walking.xaf XML Animation file (*.xaf)], if any of you guys can import that. 0-19:start, 20-39:step a, 40-59:step b, 60-80:stop --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 22:46, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::Neo (Creator of OniSplit) has been notified about the problem, now we just wait until he looks at the dae files and figures out the problem. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

:::::::::Bobby: Can you export the TRAMs as FBX files? Neo is having some issues with the Collada files, somehow, they don't look right. The body seems to move up. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

[http://www.filefront.com/14513937/FBX%20varients.rar FBX variants.rar] Probably just need the one from the latest version (I think it's version variants), but had done them all last night anyhow. Exporting these never crashes 3ds - it'd be great if these could be accommodated by oniSplit. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 23:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

::These files are in the Collada format. Can you export the TRAMs so that there are in the .fbx format. Something like this: TRAMID_runstart.fbx [[User:EdT|EdT]]
:::Sorry about that - although I think the content is as it would be had I typed .fbx, or not appended an extension when exporting. I used 3ds's built in exporter for FileType: (*.fbx; *.dae). 2 plugins in one? Anyhow, here's [http://www.filefront.com/14514769/ascii%20TRAMID_runstart.fbx ascii TRAMID_runstart.fbx] and [http://www.filefront.com/14514791/not%20ascii%20TRAMID_runstart.fbx not ascii TRAMID_runstart.fbx], and these are the options:
:::http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w161/bobbysoon/exportoptions.jpg

::::You forgot to include the animation in the fbx file. I noticed the Animation box was not selected. Also, can you include the native .3ds file of the walking animation? I think I can open it up in Cheetah3D. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::::That would be one of my more special moments http://www.modacity.net/forums/styles/smilies/extra/downs.gif
:::::fbx with animation: [http://www.filefront.com/14515617/ascii%20ID%20walking.FBX ascii] [http://www.filefront.com/14515621/not-ascii%20ID%20walking.FBX not ascii] [http://www.filefront.com/14515615/ID%20walking.3DS 3ds]

:::::colladaMAX crash figured out (fingers crossed). I cleared smoothing groups, applied fresh, textureless materials, exported to .3ds, imported it back, and was then able to export with colladaMAX to dae with animations, without crashing.
:::::The -z error occured when the sample animation option was unchecked:
::::::"Sample animation: Enables time-sampling the animated parameters, within the Start and End time interval. One sample is taken per time unit. If this option is disabled, ColladaMax will attempt to export the animated parameters as key-frames."
:::::With it checked, OniSplit reports this:
::::::<nowiki>Importing D:\Oni\Edition\install\packages\21100Iron_Demon\oni\level0_Final\dae\TRAMID_run1stepa.DAE</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki>System.IndexOutOfRangeException: Index was outside the bounds of the array.</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.<>c__DisplayClass16.<ReadAnimationChannel>b__15(Node node)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.<>c__DisplayClass1d`1.<BindId>b__1c()</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.ReadRoot()</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.ReadFile(String filePath)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Totoro.AnimationDaeReader.Import(String filePath, String outputDirPath)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Program.CreateGeneric(String[] args)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Program.Main(String[] args)</nowiki>

animations, [http://www.filefront.com/14515935/per%20time.DAE time interval] and [http://www.filefront.com/14515931/per%20key.DAE key specific]
::::::Thanks for the files, I'm trying to fix this. Some more notes:
::::::-Some of the problems are caused by Z-up vs. Y-up. Converting geometry from Z-up to Y-up is easy but I seem to have problems converting animations (and Softimage seems to have the same problems)
::::::-Another problem is that ColladaMAX exports a type of animation interpolation that OniSplit does not handle (TCB). I'll add support for that if I can figure out what TCB means. Until then the "sample animation" option is a good workaround (and keep in mind that you need 60fps, not 30 like in your fbx exporter screenshot).
:::::::Autodesk Reference: TCB Controllers
::::::::''"TCB Controllers produce curve-based animation much like Bezier controllers. However, TCB controllers do not use tangent types or adjustable tangent handles. They use fields to adjust the Tension, Continuity, and Bias of the animation.''
::::::::''This controller works well as a Position controller in conjunction with the Motion panel > Trajectories display of an object. With sub-object keys turned on and the Key Info dialog for a key displayed (right-click and select Key Info on the selected key to display Key Info properties), you can change the parameters in the Key Info dialog and see the trajectory path change. This allows for very precise control of an object's trajectory with visual feedback.''

::::::::''Euler XYZ is now the default rotation controller in 3ds Max. The TCB Rotation controller was the default rotation controller for files created in versions 4 and earlier.''

::::::::''Tip: Euler XYZ behaves very differently than TCB rotations. Users upgrading from versions 4 or earlier might have difficulty adapting to the differences between these controllers. If you are used to working with TCB rotations, you can reassign it to be the default rotation controller. "''
:::::::I had noticed that 3ds has 2 kinds of keys per rotation/position. One kind lists only position and rotation keys when I right-click a key, and it's rotation curves don't show in the curve editor, while the other lists x, y, and z for position & rotation. The former appears to be TCB. I'm not sure how I ended up with TCB, but I believe I converted them by "collapsing transforms", and so here's another dae: [http://www.filefront.com/14519017/walking%20non-tcb.DAE non-tcb walking animation .dae] --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 18:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::-Autodesk has a free "FBX Converter" that can be used to convert from .fbx to .dae (and back). It can also convert from .3ds to .fbx. See if that can be used as an alternative to ColladaMAX. Download here: [http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=10775855 FBX Converter]
:::::::Unfortunately, the converted fbx->dae generates the same array bounds error. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 19:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::::I chatted with Neo earlier and that error has been fixed. But now he needs to work on the ZUP issue. [[User:EdT|EdT]]
::::::::Yes that one is fixed. I suggested the FBX Converter only as a workaround to ColladaMAX crashes. Couple of other things:
::::::::-I got it somewhat working by exporting uncompressed TRAMs instead of compressed ones.
::::::::-Those Collada files use "meter" as unit. Currently OniSplit ignores that so don't be surprised if the model looks very small when imported.
::::::::-The TRBSs might need to be reimported when a new version of OniSplit is out. The current one might have messed up the bone order.
::::::::-I'm curious if you ever tried to import an animation exported by OniSplit into Max and if it worked correctly.
::::::::[[User:Neo|Neo]]
:::::::::Yeah, some are good, and some are buggy. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 11:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::-I'd suggest that this animation discussion be moved to a different page. It's getting long and we've yet to see the end of it.
::::::[[User:Neo|Neo]]
:::::::Thanks for your hard work, Neo. Re: moving to a different page, technically this entire page's contents belong at [[AE_talk:Iron Demon]], but I was waiting until we were done talking before I moved it, so as not to disrupt anything. Anyway, moving all of this over there won't help the animation discussion being huge, so perhaps I should give this topic its own subpage. But I don't really think it's that big, yet, as long as you click on [edit] for this section only when editing. If you want, though, I will move it to a subpage now; otherwise I will wait until the section's gotten over, say, 20KB (it's just under 10KB now). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:12, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::moved from [[User_talk:Bobbysoon]] --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 17:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Bobbysoon/Animation Discussion

2009-09-12T19:11:33Z

Bobbysoon: fbx->dae generates the same array bounds error

Working on a workflow for animation. Made a dependencies and xml browser to help me get with the program
It doesn't even use idle, does it? It's always running, right? So for starters I should work on anims from the run set? --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 19:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
::I think we need these animations:
:::-Idle - simple Iron Demon standing
:::-Turn left / Turn right - simple Iron Demon standing, but during this animation he rotates around his axis a bit left/right. Maybe you can give him a slight movement of legs to make it look better.
:::-Run forward left leg / Run forward right leg - these two will be alternating to make Iron Demon run forward. His "run" should look similar to Mutant Muro's movement ( slow and heavy ), but ID should move more robotic - like.
:::-Run backward left leg / Run backward right leg - just reversed versions of aforementioned, used for backpedaling
:::-Runstart forward / Runstart backward - transition animation, starts from idle, moves one leg a bit forward so it can smoothly transit to either left leg or right leg run animation. You can choose which one, that does not matter.
:::-Runstop forward / backward - opposite of those two above.
:I guess that should be enough for the beginning. Later we can add more. --[[User:Loser|Loser]] 20:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

bobbysoon, I watched your animation on YouTube as linked to above. Looks like you got the mechanics down perfectly. Now, help a confused guy out. Is that intended to be a walk or a run? And what did you mean about the model kneeling? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:24, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:That's walking. Here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS8Iiy2_Z-g side view], starting with kneeling and standing full height at the end. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 04:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

::Okay... so, dumb question time: why is he "kneeling"? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 14:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Cause that's it's no-anim using default pose. That's how the model was that I got, and I defaulted node rotations before attaching the mesh to them. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 16:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

::::Hmm, see, here's part of why I'm so confused: the ID does not seem to have lower legs; rather the upper legs connect to the feet with a rotating joint. Hence, I don't know what kneeling means because I don't consider the ID as having knees. Do you mean that the old ID stood up straighter than the new ID, i.e., the upper body was angled back more with respect to the feet? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::It's about .375 units taller standing up. The way it's legs fold, it's 'knees' are reversed, like a bird's. I'll try to make another TRBS, standing as default pose --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 20:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Bebuggeredly with the 3ds exports, crash after crash. Blasted ColladaMAX. I'm yet to isolate what it's blathering about.
:::::I've read it said that animations are rotation only - yet, it's appearant in the oni2 trailer, that the ID has a bobbing pelvis - or that it's using an alternate node set that simulates a bouncing center of gravity. I have observed that deleting the pelvis's animation keys allows OniSplit to progress to report errors about a calf, rather than the pelvis (something about -z rotation). I'm sorry I didn't take better notes. Between 3ds, colladaMAX, OniSplit, and life in general, I'm getting rather frayed. Point being, this might take a while --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 06:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Animations are rotation only...except for the pelvis. :p The pelvis can translate as much as it likes. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 13:07, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::I know the feeling, believe me. Eventually it seems like nothing works and you don't remember what you did when it was closest to working. Notes are in fact important for keeping track of what you try, but you already know that. Just don't feel that you have to solve these problems on your own. If you paste in some specific errors from OniSplit, for instance, Neo might be able to help you (might have to post your animated model too). We're getting into the least-proven area of modding now, so we'll just have to slog through in small steps together. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 13:27, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::You don't have to struggle alone, post the collada files, so we can take a look. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::::::::Thanks. Ok, [http://www.filefront.com/14507129/dae.rar 3 out of 4] - I accidentally overwrote stepa with a dae meant for trbs. nvm the filenames. Also, here's an [http://www.filefront.com/14507115/ID%20walking.xaf XML Animation file (*.xaf)], if any of you guys can import that. 0-19:start, 20-39:step a, 40-59:step b, 60-80:stop --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 22:46, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::Neo (Creator of OniSplit) has been notified about the problem, now we just wait until he looks at the dae files and figures out the problem. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

:::::::::Bobby: Can you export the TRAMs as FBX files? Neo is having some issues with the Collada files, somehow, they don't look right. The body seems to move up. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

[http://www.filefront.com/14513937/FBX%20varients.rar FBX variants.rar] Probably just need the one from the latest version (I think it's version variants), but had done them all last night anyhow. Exporting these never crashes 3ds - it'd be great if these could be accommodated by oniSplit. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 23:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

::These files are in the Collada format. Can you export the TRAMs so that there are in the .fbx format. Something like this: TRAMID_runstart.fbx [[User:EdT|EdT]]
:::Sorry about that - although I think the content is as it would be had I typed .fbx, or not appended an extension when exporting. I used 3ds's built in exporter for FileType: (*.fbx; *.dae). 2 plugins in one? Anyhow, here's [http://www.filefront.com/14514769/ascii%20TRAMID_runstart.fbx ascii TRAMID_runstart.fbx] and [http://www.filefront.com/14514791/not%20ascii%20TRAMID_runstart.fbx not ascii TRAMID_runstart.fbx], and these are the options:
:::http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w161/bobbysoon/exportoptions.jpg

::::You forgot to include the animation in the fbx file. I noticed the Animation box was not selected. Also, can you include the native .3ds file of the walking animation? I think I can open it up in Cheetah3D. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::::That would be one of my more special moments http://www.modacity.net/forums/styles/smilies/extra/downs.gif
:::::fbx with animation: [http://www.filefront.com/14515617/ascii%20ID%20walking.FBX ascii] [http://www.filefront.com/14515621/not-ascii%20ID%20walking.FBX not ascii] [http://www.filefront.com/14515615/ID%20walking.3DS 3ds]

:::::colladaMAX crash figured out (fingers crossed). I cleared smoothing groups, applied fresh, textureless materials, exported to .3ds, imported it back, and was then able to export with colladaMAX to dae with animations, without crashing.
:::::The -z error occured when the sample animation option was unchecked:
::::::"Sample animation: Enables time-sampling the animated parameters, within the Start and End time interval. One sample is taken per time unit. If this option is disabled, ColladaMax will attempt to export the animated parameters as key-frames."
:::::With it checked, OniSplit reports this:
::::::<nowiki>Importing D:\Oni\Edition\install\packages\21100Iron_Demon\oni\level0_Final\dae\TRAMID_run1stepa.DAE</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki>System.IndexOutOfRangeException: Index was outside the bounds of the array.</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.<>c__DisplayClass16.<ReadAnimationChannel>b__15(Node node)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.<>c__DisplayClass1d`1.<BindId>b__1c()</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.ReadRoot()</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.ReadFile(String filePath)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Totoro.AnimationDaeReader.Import(String filePath, String outputDirPath)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Program.CreateGeneric(String[] args)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Program.Main(String[] args)</nowiki>

animations, [http://www.filefront.com/14515935/per%20time.DAE time interval] and [http://www.filefront.com/14515931/per%20key.DAE key specific]
::::::Thanks for the files, I'm trying to fix this. Some more notes:
::::::-Some of the problems are caused by Z-up vs. Y-up. Converting geometry from Z-up to Y-up is easy but I seem to have problems converting animations (and Softimage seems to have the same problems)
::::::-Another problem is that ColladaMAX exports a type of animation interpolation that OniSplit does not handle (TCB). I'll add support for that if I can figure out what TCB means. Until then the "sample animation" option is a good workaround (and keep in mind that you need 60fps, not 30 like in your fbx exporter screenshot).
:::::::Autodesk Reference: TCB Controllers
::::::::''"TCB Controllers produce curve-based animation much like Bezier controllers. However, TCB controllers do not use tangent types or adjustable tangent handles. They use fields to adjust the Tension, Continuity, and Bias of the animation.''
::::::::''This controller works well as a Position controller in conjunction with the Motion panel > Trajectories display of an object. With sub-object keys turned on and the Key Info dialog for a key displayed (right-click and select Key Info on the selected key to display Key Info properties), you can change the parameters in the Key Info dialog and see the trajectory path change. This allows for very precise control of an object's trajectory with visual feedback.''

::::::::''Euler XYZ is now the default rotation controller in 3ds Max. The TCB Rotation controller was the default rotation controller for files created in versions 4 and earlier.''

::::::::''Tip: Euler XYZ behaves very differently than TCB rotations. Users upgrading from versions 4 or earlier might have difficulty adapting to the differences between these controllers. If you are used to working with TCB rotations, you can reassign it to be the default rotation controller. "''
:::::::I had noticed that 3ds has 2 kinds of keys per rotation/position. One kind lists only position and rotation keys when I right-click a key, and it's rotation curves don't show in the curve editor, while the other lists x, y, and z for position & rotation. The former appears to be TCB. I'm not sure how I ended up with TCB, but I believe I converted them by "collapsing transforms", and so here's another dae: [http://www.filefront.com/14519017/walking%20non-tcb.DAE non-tcb walking animation .dae] --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 18:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::-Autodesk has a free "FBX Converter" that can be used to convert from .fbx to .dae (and back). It can also convert from .3ds to .fbx. See if that can be used as an alternative to ColladaMAX. Download here: [http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=10775855 FBX Converter]
:::::::Unfortunately, the converted fbx->dae generates the same array bounds error. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 19:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::-I'd suggest that this animation discussion be moved to a different page. It's getting long and we've yet to see the end of it.
::::::[[User:Neo|Neo]]
:::::::Thanks for your hard work, Neo. Re: moving to a different page, technically this entire page's contents belong at [[AE_talk:Iron Demon]], but I was waiting until we were done talking before I moved it, so as not to disrupt anything. Anyway, moving all of this over there won't help the animation discussion being huge, so perhaps I should give this topic its own subpage. But I don't really think it's that big, yet, as long as you click on [edit] for this section only when editing. If you want, though, I will move it to a subpage now; otherwise I will wait until the section's gotten over, say, 20KB (it's just under 10KB now). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:12, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::moved from [[User_talk:Bobbysoon]] --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 17:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Bobbysoon/Animation Discussion

2009-09-12T18:24:27Z

Bobbysoon: Autodesk on TCB

Working on a workflow for animation. Made a dependencies and xml browser to help me get with the program
It doesn't even use idle, does it? It's always running, right? So for starters I should work on anims from the run set? --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 19:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
::I think we need these animations:
:::-Idle - simple Iron Demon standing
:::-Turn left / Turn right - simple Iron Demon standing, but during this animation he rotates around his axis a bit left/right. Maybe you can give him a slight movement of legs to make it look better.
:::-Run forward left leg / Run forward right leg - these two will be alternating to make Iron Demon run forward. His "run" should look similar to Mutant Muro's movement ( slow and heavy ), but ID should move more robotic - like.
:::-Run backward left leg / Run backward right leg - just reversed versions of aforementioned, used for backpedaling
:::-Runstart forward / Runstart backward - transition animation, starts from idle, moves one leg a bit forward so it can smoothly transit to either left leg or right leg run animation. You can choose which one, that does not matter.
:::-Runstop forward / backward - opposite of those two above.
:I guess that should be enough for the beginning. Later we can add more. --[[User:Loser|Loser]] 20:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

bobbysoon, I watched your animation on YouTube as linked to above. Looks like you got the mechanics down perfectly. Now, help a confused guy out. Is that intended to be a walk or a run? And what did you mean about the model kneeling? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:24, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:That's walking. Here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS8Iiy2_Z-g side view], starting with kneeling and standing full height at the end. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 04:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

::Okay... so, dumb question time: why is he "kneeling"? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 14:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Cause that's it's no-anim using default pose. That's how the model was that I got, and I defaulted node rotations before attaching the mesh to them. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 16:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

::::Hmm, see, here's part of why I'm so confused: the ID does not seem to have lower legs; rather the upper legs connect to the feet with a rotating joint. Hence, I don't know what kneeling means because I don't consider the ID as having knees. Do you mean that the old ID stood up straighter than the new ID, i.e., the upper body was angled back more with respect to the feet? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::It's about .375 units taller standing up. The way it's legs fold, it's 'knees' are reversed, like a bird's. I'll try to make another TRBS, standing as default pose --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 20:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Bebuggeredly with the 3ds exports, crash after crash. Blasted ColladaMAX. I'm yet to isolate what it's blathering about.
:::::I've read it said that animations are rotation only - yet, it's appearant in the oni2 trailer, that the ID has a bobbing pelvis - or that it's using an alternate node set that simulates a bouncing center of gravity. I have observed that deleting the pelvis's animation keys allows OniSplit to progress to report errors about a calf, rather than the pelvis (something about -z rotation). I'm sorry I didn't take better notes. Between 3ds, colladaMAX, OniSplit, and life in general, I'm getting rather frayed. Point being, this might take a while --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 06:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Animations are rotation only...except for the pelvis. :p The pelvis can translate as much as it likes. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 13:07, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::I know the feeling, believe me. Eventually it seems like nothing works and you don't remember what you did when it was closest to working. Notes are in fact important for keeping track of what you try, but you already know that. Just don't feel that you have to solve these problems on your own. If you paste in some specific errors from OniSplit, for instance, Neo might be able to help you (might have to post your animated model too). We're getting into the least-proven area of modding now, so we'll just have to slog through in small steps together. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 13:27, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::You don't have to struggle alone, post the collada files, so we can take a look. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::::::::Thanks. Ok, [http://www.filefront.com/14507129/dae.rar 3 out of 4] - I accidentally overwrote stepa with a dae meant for trbs. nvm the filenames. Also, here's an [http://www.filefront.com/14507115/ID%20walking.xaf XML Animation file (*.xaf)], if any of you guys can import that. 0-19:start, 20-39:step a, 40-59:step b, 60-80:stop --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 22:46, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::Neo (Creator of OniSplit) has been notified about the problem, now we just wait until he looks at the dae files and figures out the problem. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

:::::::::Bobby: Can you export the TRAMs as FBX files? Neo is having some issues with the Collada files, somehow, they don't look right. The body seems to move up. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

[http://www.filefront.com/14513937/FBX%20varients.rar FBX variants.rar] Probably just need the one from the latest version (I think it's version variants), but had done them all last night anyhow. Exporting these never crashes 3ds - it'd be great if these could be accommodated by oniSplit. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 23:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

::These files are in the Collada format. Can you export the TRAMs so that there are in the .fbx format. Something like this: TRAMID_runstart.fbx [[User:EdT|EdT]]
:::Sorry about that - although I think the content is as it would be had I typed .fbx, or not appended an extension when exporting. I used 3ds's built in exporter for FileType: (*.fbx; *.dae). 2 plugins in one? Anyhow, here's [http://www.filefront.com/14514769/ascii%20TRAMID_runstart.fbx ascii TRAMID_runstart.fbx] and [http://www.filefront.com/14514791/not%20ascii%20TRAMID_runstart.fbx not ascii TRAMID_runstart.fbx], and these are the options:
:::http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w161/bobbysoon/exportoptions.jpg

::::You forgot to include the animation in the fbx file. I noticed the Animation box was not selected. Also, can you include the native .3ds file of the walking animation? I think I can open it up in Cheetah3D. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::::That would be one of my more special moments http://www.modacity.net/forums/styles/smilies/extra/downs.gif
:::::fbx with animation: [http://www.filefront.com/14515617/ascii%20ID%20walking.FBX ascii] [http://www.filefront.com/14515621/not-ascii%20ID%20walking.FBX not ascii] [http://www.filefront.com/14515615/ID%20walking.3DS 3ds]

:::::colladaMAX crash figured out (fingers crossed). I cleared smoothing groups, applied fresh, textureless materials, exported to .3ds, imported it back, and was then able to export with colladaMAX to dae with animations, without crashing.
:::::The -z error occured when the sample animation option was unchecked:
::::::"Sample animation: Enables time-sampling the animated parameters, within the Start and End time interval. One sample is taken per time unit. If this option is disabled, ColladaMax will attempt to export the animated parameters as key-frames."
:::::With it checked, OniSplit reports this:
::::::<nowiki>Importing D:\Oni\Edition\install\packages\21100Iron_Demon\oni\level0_Final\dae\TRAMID_run1stepa.DAE</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki>System.IndexOutOfRangeException: Index was outside the bounds of the array.</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.<>c__DisplayClass16.<ReadAnimationChannel>b__15(Node node)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.<>c__DisplayClass1d`1.<BindId>b__1c()</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.ReadRoot()</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Geometry.Dae.Reader.ReadFile(String filePath)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Totoro.AnimationDaeReader.Import(String filePath, String outputDirPath)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Program.CreateGeneric(String[] args)</nowiki>
::::::<nowiki> at Oni.Program.Main(String[] args)</nowiki>

animations, [http://www.filefront.com/14515935/per%20time.DAE time interval] and [http://www.filefront.com/14515931/per%20key.DAE key specific]
::::::Thanks for the files, I'm trying to fix this. Some more notes:
::::::-Some of the problems are caused by Z-up vs. Y-up. Converting geometry from Z-up to Y-up is easy but I seem to have problems converting animations (and Softimage seems to have the same problems)
::::::-Another problem is that ColladaMAX exports a type of animation interpolation that OniSplit does not handle (TCB). I'll add support for that if I can figure out what TCB means. Until then the "sample animation" option is a good workaround (and keep in mind that you need 60fps, not 30 like in your fbx exporter screenshot).
:::::::Autodesk Reference: TCB Controllers
::::::::''"TCB Controllers produce curve-based animation much like Bezier controllers. However, TCB controllers do not use tangent types or adjustable tangent handles. They use fields to adjust the Tension, Continuity, and Bias of the animation.''
::::::::''This controller works well as a Position controller in conjunction with the Motion panel > Trajectories display of an object. With sub-object keys turned on and the Key Info dialog for a key displayed (right-click and select Key Info on the selected key to display Key Info properties), you can change the parameters in the Key Info dialog and see the trajectory path change. This allows for very precise control of an object's trajectory with visual feedback.''

::::::::''Euler XYZ is now the default rotation controller in 3ds Max. The TCB Rotation controller was the default rotation controller for files created in versions 4 and earlier.''

::::::::''Tip: Euler XYZ behaves very differently than TCB rotations. Users upgrading from versions 4 or earlier might have difficulty adapting to the differences between these controllers. If you are used to working with TCB rotations, you can reassign it to be the default rotation controller. "''
:::::::I had noticed that 3ds has 2 kinds of keys per rotation/position. One kind lists only position and rotation keys when I right-click a key, and it's rotation curves don't show in the curve editor, while the other lists x, y, and z for position & rotation. The former appears to be TCB. I'm not sure how I ended up with TCB, but I believe I converted them by "collapsing transforms", and so here's another dae: [http://www.filefront.com/14519017/walking%20non-tcb.DAE non-tcb walking animation .dae] --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 18:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::-Autodesk has a free "FBX Converter" that can be used to convert from .fbx to .dae (and back). It can also convert from .3ds to .fbx. See if that can be used as an alternative to ColladaMAX. Download here: [http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=10775855 FBX Converter]
::::::-I'd suggest that this animation discussion be moved to a different page. It's getting long and we've yet to see the end of it.
::::::[[User:Neo|Neo]]
:::::::Thanks for your hard work, Neo. Re: moving to a different page, technically this entire page's contents belong at [[AE_talk:Iron Demon]], but I was waiting until we were done talking before I moved it, so as not to disrupt anything. Anyway, moving all of this over there won't help the animation discussion being huge, so perhaps I should give this topic its own subpage. But I don't really think it's that big, yet, as long as you click on [edit] for this section only when editing. If you want, though, I will move it to a subpage now; otherwise I will wait until the section's gotten over, say, 20KB (it's just under 10KB now). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:12, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::moved from [[User_talk:Bobbysoon]] --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 17:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Bobbysoon

2009-09-12T17:27:06Z

Bobbysoon: cut /* Animation Discussion */ moved to User_talk:Bobbysoon/Animation_Discussion

=Iron Demon creation related=
==Model/Outline==
:Closest thing to a height comparison between Konoko and the original ID:

:http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/Konoko%20runs%20from%20ID.jpg (I know, it's tiny)

:The perspective there makes it hard to judge, but I'd say the current model is basically the same height. What do y'all think? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

::Okay, EdT encouraged me to look at the trailer shot of the ID in the RSB lobby, and he even wrote a script to set the relevant shot up in Oni, so here's a more useful comparison:

::http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20old%20size.jpg http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20new%20size.jpg

::Going by this, I would personally say it needs to be sized up by 25%-30%. P.S.: I just want to draw bobbysoon's attention to the textures, notice how they are more "weighty" on the old ID. I think it's a combination of being a darker gray and having more "shading" built into the texture to make up for Oni's anemic lighting system. I know you weren't probably planning on the current textures being final anyway; just wanted to take advantage of the comparison shot to point that out. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:27, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Ok, 127.5% it is then, and I'll render in shadows, and see about that darker grey.
:::[http://www.filefront.com/14485651/ID%20TRBS%20dae%20TXMP_chest.rar ID TRBS dae TXMP_chest.rar] Most textures ended up on the wrong parts, idk why. Maybe export order of objects. Much clone/delete mesh/attach was involved. I'll shuffle around the TRMA and see. I ''tink'' I'm losing internet today, idk, so just in case I want to get el 127.5% out asap. Maybe I can get some animations (dae at least) done before then.
:::--[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 20:45, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: I found the problem with the mixed up textures. It has to do with the ID's parent-child relationship.

:::: http://edt.oni2.net/temp/IDmisplaced.jpg

:::::Re-ordered nodes, and fixed arm/biceps reference in TRMA: [http://www.filefront.com/14488981/level0_Final.rar/ TRBS, TRMA, and a couple TXMPs] - not that I re-rendered for the color correction yet. I modified the mesh of the body a little. How does it look? --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]]

::::::I like the animated display on the back, nice touch. Although it is partway in the ground until EdT adjusts the height again, the larger ID seems to be more imposing. However, while EdT and I were comparing the new size to the original ID, we noticed some other discrepancies that probably were always there in the model you inherited. To wit:

:::::::http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20forward%20old.jpg http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20forward%20new.jpg
:::::#The first thing that jumped out at us in the first comparison is that the arms are further forward on the new model.
:::::#Also, the head is now larger and more square. In fact, the old face appears to taper in a diagonal line up towards the eye. This seems odd at first, but makes sense in terms of placing more of an emphasis on the eye as the foremost point on the head rather than just a circle set in a slab.
:::::#The forearms (the things with the barrels sticking out of them) are a bit thicker now.
:::::#:http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20old%20size.jpg http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20new%20new%20size%202.jpg (new ID has its feet below the floor)
:::::#From the walkway, one can see that the forearms used to have a flatter curve across the tops and taper off at the back. We think they're also shorter on the old ID, but obviously the tapering off of the arms is probably adding to that impression.
:::::#The head may be a tad wider now across the top, but it definitely used to taper off more at the back, on the old model.

::::::Do you think you can fix these issues? I know they aren't your fault, sorry to make more work for you, but I think the ID will look sleeker with these changes. And let us know if you aren't seeing something the way we are. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 22:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::My bad - I didn't like the concave on the rear tip's underside, and so I lopped it. Looks to me, with a better look at that pic on the left, that it should have instead been fleshed out under the tail.
:::::::The foot-shield-shell thing (aka: calf) side housing needs correction too, behind and along side the shin guard where the flame ports are.
:::::::I see what you mean about it's face. I thought that was a smoothing glitch, before, but now I see what you pointed out - slightly pointy towards the eye. Less slabby is good, but it's head is basic rounded square, face-on.
:::::::Now it looks too big. Thing is, it's kneeling in that pose. It can't drop down much more from there - whereas, the original one is up and walking.
:::::::and I just exported animations for it too ): - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht7KrEaImzo youtube] good exercise anyhow --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]]

::::::::The walking animation is awesome! Can't wait to try it in the game. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::::::Just to add a little more information, if you look at the following screenshot:
::::::http://edt.oni2.net/temp/ID_Size.jpg
::::::I positioned the ID as close as I could to the one in the trailer. From this point of view, the height looks correct, but, the ID's depth (From the front to the back) is too long, and the width could be slightly narrower. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

:::::::Nice comparisons, btw. Excellent feedback, all. This definately gives me something to work with
:::::::Now, about the scale... on a scale of original to 130%? --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]]

::::::::Don't know if anyone else can say anything about scale, but for me, because the proportions of the ID will change when those corrections are made, I don't think I will be able to accurately compare the current model's scale to the old one until then.
::::::::My general impression, though, is that the current model's top is too large, but that the feet are fine. So if one focuses first on the top, the whole model seems too large, but if one starts at the feet, the conclusion one reaches is that the head and arms are too big. I've been viewing things from the "feet first" perspective, which is why I listed a bunch of "make this smaller" corrections for the top half and none for the feet. The other approach would of course be to scale the whole thing down and then scale the feet up. But I figured, "Let's use the feet as our standard ruler and modify what is out of proportion to the feet".
::::::::P.S.: I take back what I said about the head width in #5, there's no way it's too wide across the top. But it's definitely longer than the old head. As I mentioned, adding some kind of tapering from underneath on the back of the head will probably help too. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::I disagree with your taking back #5 - I think it is a bit too wide, and I think it's only thicker along the back half of it's top in the video. It does look to me like the wings/arm-shields are meant to appear as being part of the body - that the wing's base tapers into the body. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 05:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::::Re: #5, you might be right about me being right before I said was wrong :D As for the arm-shields, you're right; I can see in that movie of yours that they angle into the body in the original model, rather than being straight panels (the whole shields are also slanted a bit more vertically). Hopefully we've finally figured it all out now. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:01, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::Aknowleged.
:::::::::I made this to get a better look at the trailer's ID clips: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STMMqcpJuB0 ID clips in slow-motion] One thing I noticed is the 'dynamo'/fannypack should be shorter by about half. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 22:46, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::Indeed, good catch. It will look better when it's shorter, too. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 23:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

==Weapons==
Loser and I had a chat and came up with a tentative plan for the ID's weapons:
* What weapons will the mech have?
:* The chainguns, obviously. Per a chat with EdT, we should be able to give the ID infinite ammo to we don't have to worry about reloading.
:* Homing missile launcher. Keeps Konoko on her toes even when she isn't in the ID's sights.
:* Gas grenade launcher. For when the mech does not have a line of sight to the enemy but knows where they are hiding and wants to smoke them out. The gas is toxic enough that you won't want to hang around if a 'nade gets lobbed next to the thing you're hiding behind.
:* Flamethrower. A close- or mid-range attack if the player lets the ID get too close, or stupidly charges the ID to get inside the range of its chainguns.
:* Tesla discharge field. Another close-range attack (for story purposes it could be a defense against people who would try to get into the mech). Used alternatingly in place of flamethrower or else at even closer distances. Forms a sphere of electricity around the mech.

* Where will the weapons be on the mech?
:* Chainguns are a "duh", but what about the other weapons? (Edit: Actually, Loser brought up the idea of making the barrels PAR3s attached to the model, so they can rotate when they fire, is that doable?)
:* The homing missile launcher could be mounted on the back of the ID, pointing up (could be a simple hole in the existing model's upper back) because it would allow firing in all directions, and also, it would simply look cool for the missile to fire up, and come arcing down to chase Konoko around corners as she runs.
:* The chin gun (is it still there?) could be altered to look like it can fire gas grenades.
:* The flamethrower should be placed low on the body, since flames rise. Perhaps we can use the holes in the leg plates for this. By simply adding hoses that attach from the back of the holes to the feet, we would demonstrate where the fuel comes from ([http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20plus%20hoses.jpg incredibly crude sample illustration]).
:* The electric field doesn't need to be based in some physical aspect of the model (but personally I wonder what that [[wikipedia:Dynamo|cylinder]] attached to its back with warning stripes does...) :-3 --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:30, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

:I've made the chainguns the wrists, centered to spin. The wrists are the large forarms. The biceps are the arm-axis under the shield, and the shoulders are the shields over the arms, which are linked to the neck, 'cause that's how I found it...
:Some recoil can occur with the whole arm kicking back 5 degrees or so
:I did drop the gunpod, but I'm expecting to rework the model and textures again for such accommodations
:I've made TRBS and TXMPs. Next, an idle animation
:*What's the simplest way to get this in-game?
:*What's with the %2Fs in the names? I see in the xml those names imply folders. are those necessary?
:*Maybe I should just upload the [http://www.filefront.com/14467707/_IronDemon-dae.rar/ dae] and [http://www.filefront.com/14467713/images.rar/ tga] and let you guys get it in game properly

==TRAM Discussion==

So close:

EDIT Removed old screenshot showing Iron Demon partly in the ground. Error in TRAM data.

[[User:EdT|EdT]]

He's sitting on his root node. It's feet are at ground level in 3dsworld - is it like that because it doesn't have an idle animation? Or is that because was I wrong about the neck.shoulders linkage? I'm only 90% positive about that one

Sorry, I'll get you a replacement dae with correct texture names soon as 3ds doesn't crash when I export dae DX

Re-rendering those textures really did a number on them, didn't it?
--[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 03:57, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Bobbysoon,

Corrected TRAM heights (well its still slightly off the ground but I ran out of time):

http://edt.oni2.net/images/bobbysoon_ID.jpg

Here is a package for your Iron Demon, there is a read me with instructions: http://edt.oni2.net/temp/Iron_Demon_Package.zip

Don't worry about the names of the textures, I took care of that. I have included idle, run, walk animations. All of them have no rotation of the body parts, so the Iron Demon moves as a single object. So currently, the ID will follow you around and if you shapeshift to the ID you can move around.

Great job on the Iron Demon.

[[User:EdT|EdT]]

:I guess the next step is to get a walking animation made, eh? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:58, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, and thanks for the package - exactly what I needed
I somehow compromised my 3ds file, but extracting from that last -create:trbs solves that. Animatin time

==Explosion Discussion==

WOOT! The Iron Demon goes boom: http://edt.oni2.net/temp/ID_Boom.wmv

[[User:EdT|EdT]]
:Pretty cool, EdT -- now, is that the explosion we were looking at yesterday? Because I don't see any smoking debris flying away from the scene.... --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:20, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

::Updated the video with the full power of the env_bomb_e01 particle. I couldn't get it to work on its own, so I used the mad_e01 (Mad Bomber's particle) as the basis, they copied the links from the env_bomb to mad_e01, the last explosion is from the mad bomber's particle, so sometimes, you can see the boot as one of the debries :-) [[User:EdT|EdT]]

:::Looking great. I am inclined to say that we should actually drop the shockwave effect, as it seems inappropriate for a smallish mech's destruction. The explosion was intended for a powerful bomb that damages BGI HQ, after all, so I think the shockwave is a tad overkill for the ID. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:27, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

::::I like the shockwave myself, though it could be downsized a little bit. Also, make the fire particles match closer to the actual mech's size. Thiugh it might be fine with the resize it needs anyways. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 16:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::Well, if the shockwave could just not sweep over the entire map, I would be happier. Would it look good, though, if it faded out before getting really huge? I don't know how else we would make it smaller. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::I had a chat with Loser yesterday and he will work on the explosion. So we can leave it in his hands :-) [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::::::I didn't realize it was that huge. Just add the <FadeToDeath> tag (or whatever its called) to the <Start> tag of the particle. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 17:59, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

==Animation Discussion==
moved to [[User_talk:Bobbysoon/Animation_Discussion]]

= Forumish disorder =
I see, in the [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLZ2hJZvrmo Second Oni Trailer], @1:25, the Iron Demon has a weapon variant on it's right arm. How do we do this?

--[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 20:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
:Just attach the barrel to the arm. No need to worry about the weapon varients, as the demon probably won't use a real gun. As I said below, a dummy weapon will be the way to go. I'll do all of the particle work. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 21:45, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

:Rather than guess, I'll let someone more knowledgeable answer the modeling questions. I don't know of the Iron Demon appearing anywhere else beyond what is found on the [[Iron Demon]] page. I'm pretty sure there's no video of it, at the very least (unless you count [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa-h6lXQ-p4 this] fan product). As to the Iron Demon's secondary weapon, it seems to be the early Scram Cannon that Konoko is using at 1:05 and 1:54. It might make more sense to have an alternate-firing mode that uses built-in rocket launchers on the arms, rather than trying to reproduce the gun they tacked somewhat strangely onto the model in the trailer. As to how to give the ID distinct weapons and cordon them off from the weapons that other characters can cycle through (and vice versa), that's a good question I hadn't thought of, but I know EdT was looking into the weapon side of things.... --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:44, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

perhaps we could improve upon it's wielding of a weapon, such as an aesthetically appealing port/clamp, if built-in and not dropping weapons aren't possible --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 21:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

::I think you're going to be the trailblazer in this area of Oni Modding. :-) I have limited experience with 3D models, so I don't know if the hierarchy can be changed, but my guess is that you can't. The Oni engine is probably expecting a certain parent child relationship with each of the body parts. As regards the names, I suppose you could make a quick test of a current model, change the part names and see what happens. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::You should be able to rename the bones, the names are used by OniSplit only to ensure that the children of a bone have the same order as in the original Oni skeleton. As for changing the hierarchy, hmm, that should work in theory, after all that's why [[TRIA]] exists. However in practice the engine might use hard coded bone indices. For example I have no idea how the engine knows which bone to attach a weapon to, it's not like in [[TRIA]] or somewhere else there's a flags that tells "this is the right hand". [[User:Neo|Neo]]
:::If all else fails, we can use particle based attacks. We could have up to six different attacks (P, K, J+P, J+K, C+P, C+K), or more if we utilized the combo system sneakily, so its not a huge problem. Recoil would be accomplished with a custom attack animation. These "weapons" would be completely built in though. I'm not sure how we would accomplish aiming though. The other possibility is to give it a dummy weapon and give the recoil animations particle attacks. We would be limited to two aiming attacks and two non aiming attacks though. (Using primary fire, secondary fire, jump, and crouch). We can burn those bridges when we come to them I suppose. When I get home I'll have to test out some AI behavior. Also, an image of the bone structure you are using might be nice. Having extra bones for a "vulnerable" part or retractable weapon would be cool. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 14:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Vulnerable parts might also be doable with 3D particles. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:03, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Negatory. The only way to do it is with a seperate eye\head bone. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 21:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

*pelvis
**thighs
***boots
****feet
**body
***cannons
****cannon barrels
***gunpod arm
****gunpod
*****gunpod barrel
*remaining nodes:4, or 5 - I don't think the gunpod really needs recoil action

I found out how to render new textures from the old ones! Yay! Usefull when re-grouping mesh parts
--[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 21:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

:Looks good. Might I suggest an actual head so it can turn and look at things? [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 21:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

::That would be it's body, assuming the red thing on it's front is it's eye [[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 23:01, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
::For proof that the torso's also the "head", or face, see the collage of Lorraine's face portraits [[:Image:Oni_Faces.jpg|here]]. :-3 --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
::It appears to be rotated. So then, the eye is it's head --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 01:41, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments from geyser, by email to EdT:

"
Note that, during an animation, bones can only *rotate*
with respect to each other, so parallel shift, like recoil
or a retractable gun pod, can only be implemented in a
rather hackish way (as a rotation with respect to a center
that is very far away from the character's body parts). I'd
rather suggest to forget about the chin-mounted cannon
(which is an original invention by Seventeen Seconds,
and doesn't really put the chainguns to shame at all).
It may be useful to compensate for the Iron Demon's
limited ability to rotate, but the point is moot in the
absence of any animation at all. Forget it for now.

As for the chainguns, I'd allow them to rotate on their
long axis, just the way miniguns or Gatling guns do.
Note that in the original concept the guns have three
barrels each, as opposed to 17secs's rendition, and
I think we should bring back that aspect of the model.

I think it's too early to think of the weapons, anyway.
There's plenty of stuff to do on the animation front.

2)
Bobbysoon's comment on inconsistent units is relevant,
but incorrect. Oni's world units are decimeters, and so is
the output of OniSplit: centimeters have nothing to do with
it. The problem is that early versions of the exporter got the
the meaning of the "meter" factor wrong. This will be fixed.

3)
I wouldn't spend any time on weapons right now. The Iron
Demon is worthless unless it has a convincing walk/turn
mechanism. And if he is essentially a stationary turret,
then weapon attachment is a snap anyway (cf camera).
Therefore I suggest you guys concentrate on the lower
body animation (shifting weight from one leg to the other,
walking, turning, stomping/kicking/shockwave attacks).

The upper body can be kept rigid at this point, and its
hierarchy is irrelevant. I'd keep it consistent with Oni's
generic skeleton, though, because Neo is right about
the weapon attachment: the bone index is determined
based on a mere flag in ONCC settings. The position
of the gun is snapped to the bone that has either the
index 18 or 14: this is hardcoded, and the best way
to ensure predictable behavior is to keep everything
consistent with the generic hierarchy of body parts.
Likewise, renaming bones is a bad idea, especially
if it's only a matter of personal convenience. Point
is, the modeling tool will sort siblings by name and
this will affect their order in the COLLADA file, and
this in turn will affect the order in which the bones
are stored in Oni, hence, again, a possibly broken
weapon attachment. Unless Bobbysoon is already
quite confident with the rigging and animating of
Oni's regular humanoids, I wouldn't advise him to
seek out any customization at all; it just isn't fair.
If he sticks to the usual bone names and hierarchy,
everything should be fine.

4)
I understand that Bobbysoon feels like modifying the
hierarchy of the skeleton, but this can and must be
avoided. The structure of the upper body is actually
quite rigid, and the animations will be few, so it is
quite possible (although not necessarily intuitive) to
design an animation scheme that is consistent with
the topology of Oni's generic "humanoid" skeleton.
The relative placement of the body parts will require
some creativity, as well as all the relative rotations,
but modifying the hierarchy is right out of question,
at least until Neo or I write up something definitive
about weapon attachment and aiming screens: it
is important to understand that the basic animating
will involve aiming screens and turning animations;
Bobbysoon should come to terms with this ASAP.

Bottom line: keep the upper body rigid, and focus
on the lower body. Start with weight-shifting from
one leg to the other, because that will be the main
ingredient of walking for a robot of that size (hence
the massive feet), and also of aiming and turning.
I might provide some illustrations of what I mean,
but I have no clear idea of my free time right now.

5)
Another thing that needs to be done is cosmetics.
Seventeen Seconds's model has some non-planar
quads that have been triangulated in inconsistent
ways on the left and right side of the model: these
should be fixed. More generally, normals will need
some more work: they should be recomputed using
hard edges where appropriate, and also angle-based
weights for adjacent polygons, for a better look ^_^

I know this is overly technical, but Bobbysoon may
know what I'm talking about. I'm not sure 3DS Max
supports angle-weighted normals; Mod Tool does." -- [[User:EdT|EdT]]

:Were you taking notes, Bobbysoon? There will be a test later :0) Anyway, I just wanted to throw some thoughts out there:
:* Let's not forget the unused walking sounds for the Iron Demon once we have an animation: [http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID_sounds.zip].
:* I think the Iron Demon definitely needs an additional weapon beyond the chainguns. We have to think ahead about that now, as it will affect the model. I propose a heat-seeking missile pod on the back, pointing upward. This would prevent the battle from becoming a simple game of "stay out of the ID's line of sight" and throw a wild card out there once in a while for Konoko to deal with. Assuming we can train the AI to use it correctly.
:* Has anyone given thought to the fact that the two guns are parallel to each other? This means that aiming at a point in-between the guns is impossible unless the arms can turn inward and outward. More obviously, the arms also need upward-downward range, in case Konoko is fighting it from a walkway like in the trailer.
:All that being said, I agree with geyser that walking should probably be the priority. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

*The eye will be it's head then. Sounds good to me. I'll model it a sphere, unless it should be uv animated? Is that possible?

*I think I've fixed it's geometry errors, but we'll see

*How does this look? [http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w161/bobbysoon/Gatling.jpg Gatling] That added some polys. Now it's at 3004 triangles, 1615 verts

*ColladaMAX has an option to export normals. I got a basic idea of what they're about - I think I'd need to calculate them somehow (i think i've seen a script for this) after applying smoothing groups. I'm not too great with the smoothing though.

*I'll use the default structure and names. Point taken about the skeletal structure, especially after noticing the shoulders are linked to the neck D=.

*the TRAS aiming screen closely resembles a section of Halo's model_animations tag. [http://wiki.oni2.net/OBD:TRAS This] in Oni is like [http://forum.halomaps.org/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=24629 this] in Halo, which I've done.
*:If I recall correctly, there were 2 types of aiming/looking overlays. Referring to that information in application to a particular type yielded undesired results - axis reversals. So I wonder just how similar these engines are. Some of the provided mapping of halo's engine may be useful with oni.

*could ai weapon systems be attached to the ID? Or devices? I'm guessing the Deadly Brain was a device. A similar device (in function, not form of course) would be interesting

*If at all possible, but probably infeasable, I thought it might be interesting to have the chin pod be a lasor that paints a dot, which the rockets home in on. Could a projectile impact (the painted dot) spawn a character of a 3rd team? The missile pod would be a 4th team, out to get only the 3rd team.

*having the cannons be attached characters could also solve the parallel barrels problem. Not that it's a problem if the rounds are explosive!

--[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 01:41, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

:*There's no capacity in Oni for animated UV maps AFAIK, although animated textures are possible (but on people? not totally sure).
:*The gatlings look great to me. The polys/verts sound fine.
:*geyser's point 5 is rather nitpicky, so if it's labor-intensive, don't knock yourself out worrying about normals on a model with such minimalist texturing, it can't be that noticeable of a difference, can it?
:*Sorry, I didn't get your question about an AI being attached to the ID; I mean, it will definitely have some AI profile or else it won't do anything, but beyond that, you lost me.
:*The laser sounds tricky, but fake characters may not even be needed to pull it off; Oni's particle system is probably the most sophisticated part of the engine, so perhaps the laser dot particle can attract the missile particle. However, in terms of gameplay, it seems that it would defeat the purpose of the homing missile if the ID had to face a location to aim a missile there. Then we're back to just staying out of its sights all the time. Well, that's my opinion, anyway.
:--[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

::*I mean, characters attached to a character, like attaching several TCTF characters to Konoko, that would engage enemies around her, independent of her targeting.
::*Then scrolling text in [http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w161/bobbysoon/scrollText.jpg this] green LED display ''might'' be possible. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]]

:::*Animated textures are possible on characters. Ask 'dox. :)
::::*EdT drew my attention to this. So yeah, [http://paradox.oni2.net/temp/TXMPID_mid.zip here] is a test/demo/whatever. (Was done in PS. Fixed vector mask and moved text 4 pixel per image.) -'dox
:::::*Excellent! I'm assigning the LED geometry to the previously null chest node. I batch cropped and sized up LED strip to 16x128 in photoshop.
::::::*Having trouble rebuilding the animated txmp. How do you do that? --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 04:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::*Your xml and tga files should be in same folder. Xml looks inside like this:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Oni Version="0.9.41.0">
<Texture>
<Flags>HasMipMaps AnimUseLocalTime</Flags>
<Format>DXT1</Format>
<Speed>4</Speed>
<Image>TXMPID_mid_000.tga</Image>
<Image>TXMPID_mid_001.tga</Image>
...
</Texture>
</Oni>

onisplit command:
onisplit -create ONI_folder XML_plus_TGA_folder/TXMPID_mid.xml
- 'dox

:::*Laser dot would be kind of meh. I could make one, but you wouldn't be able to see it. We'll see when I get home. But I can do guided missles, don't worry ^_^.
:::*On the guns not aiming at the same place: don't worry. We can aim to the left and the right using the targeting vectors of the ONWC, for each weapon mode. Please, don't worry about making the weapons. Just give me a spec of whatever you want them to do, and I can make it. Also, look in the comic, and see what weapons the Demon uses there. *sigh* I'll have to do up a railgun weapon sometime here, to fight this bastard. :P
:::*Also, we can have an extending gun pod, using attached particles. ^_^
:::*I wish I was home now, I want to work on this. I probably won't be able to respond for another week, when I get home, unfortunately. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 02:25, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

::::*Re: what weapon will be used against the Iron Demon... [http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20&%20Rla.jpg] ^_^
::::*"look in the comic, and see what weapons the Demon uses there". You really don't want to know. Do you? Okay, [[:image:Oni_Comic_Issue_1_p23.jpg|here]], don't say I didn't warn you. Konoko then magically turns her pistol into a rocket launcher on page 3 of issue 2 and does [[:Image:Oni_Comic_Issue_2_p4.jpg|this]]. At least they got that last part right. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::She sees it on the ground. Go back a page or two. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 16:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

2009-09-05T02:20:39Z

Bobbysoon:

==Iron Demon creation related==
I see, in the [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLZ2hJZvrmo Second Oni Trailer], @1:25, the Iron Demon has a weapon variant on it's right arm. How do we do this?

--[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 20:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
:Just attach the barrel to the arm. No need to worry about the weapon varients, as the demon probably won't use a real gun. As I said below, a dummy weapon will be the way to go. I'll do all of the particle work. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 21:45, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

:Rather than guess, I'll let someone more knowledgeable answer the modeling questions. I don't know of the Iron Demon appearing anywhere else beyond what is found on the [[Iron Demon]] page. I'm pretty sure there's no video of it, at the very least (unless you count [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa-h6lXQ-p4 this] fan product). As to the Iron Demon's secondary weapon, it seems to be the early Scram Cannon that Konoko is using at 1:05 and 1:54. It might make more sense to have an alternate-firing mode that uses built-in rocket launchers on the arms, rather than trying to reproduce the gun they tacked somewhat strangely onto the model in the trailer. As to how to give the ID distinct weapons and cordon them off from the weapons that other characters can cycle through (and vice versa), that's a good question I hadn't thought of, but I know EdT was looking into the weapon side of things.... --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:44, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

perhaps we could improve upon it's wielding of a weapon, such as an aesthetically appealing port/clamp, if built-in and not dropping weapons aren't possible --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 21:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

::I think you're going to be the trailblazer in this area of Oni Modding. :-) I have limited experience with 3D models, so I don't know if the hierarchy can be changed, but my guess is that you can't. The Oni engine is probably expecting a certain parent child relationship with each of the body parts. As regards the names, I suppose you could make a quick test of a current model, change the part names and see what happens. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::You should be able to rename the bones, the names are used by OniSplit only to ensure that the children of a bone have the same order as in the original Oni skeleton. As for changing the hierarchy, hmm, that should work in theory, after all that's why [[TRIA]] exists. However in practice the engine might use hard coded bone indices. For example I have no idea how the engine knows which bone to attach a weapon to, it's not like in [[TRIA]] or somewhere else there's a flags that tells "this is the right hand". [[User:Neo|Neo]]
:::If all else fails, we can use particle based attacks. We could have up to six different attacks (P, K, J+P, J+K, C+P, C+K), or more if we utilized the combo system sneakily, so its not a huge problem. Recoil would be accomplished with a custom attack animation. These "weapons" would be completely built in though. I'm not sure how we would accomplish aiming though. The other possibility is to give it a dummy weapon and give the recoil animations particle attacks. We would be limited to two aiming attacks and two non aiming attacks though. (Using primary fire, secondary fire, jump, and crouch). We can burn those bridges when we come to them I suppose. When I get home I'll have to test out some AI behavior. Also, an image of the bone structure you are using might be nice. Having extra bones for a "vulnerable" part or retractable weapon would be cool. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 14:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Vulnerable parts might also be doable with 3D particles. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:03, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Negatory. The only way to do it is with a seperate eye\head bone. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 21:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

*pelvis
**thighs
***boots
****feet
**body
***cannons
****cannon barrels
***gunpod arm
****gunpod
*****gunpod barrel
*remaining nodes:4, or 5 - I don't think the gunpod really needs recoil action

I found out how to render new textures from the old ones! Yay! Usefull when re-grouping mesh parts
--[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 21:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

:Looks good. Might I suggest an actual head so it can turn and look at things? [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 21:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

::That would be it's body, assuming the red thing on it's front is it's eye [[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 23:01, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
::For proof that the torso's also the "head", or face, see the collage of Lorraine's face portraits [[:Image:Oni_Faces.jpg|here]]. :-3 --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
::It appears to be rotated. So then, the eye is it's head --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 01:41, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments from geyser, by email to EdT:

"
Note that, during an animation, bones can only *rotate*
with respect to each other, so parallel shift, like recoil
or a retractable gun pod, can only be implemented in a
rather hackish way (as a rotation with respect to a center
that is very far away from the character's body parts). I'd
rather suggest to forget about the chin-mounted cannon
(which is an original invention by Seventeen Seconds,
and doesn't really put the chainguns to shame at all).
It may be useful to compensate for the Iron Demon's
limited ability to rotate, but the point is moot in the
absence of any animation at all. Forget it for now.

As for the chainguns, I'd allow them to rotate on their
long axis, just the way miniguns or Gatling guns do.
Note that in the original concept the guns have three
barrels each, as opposed to 17secs's rendition, and
I think we should bring back that aspect of the model.

I think it's too early to think of the weapons, anyway.
There's plenty of stuff to do on the animation front.

2)
Bobbysoon's comment on inconsistent units is relevant,
but incorrect. Oni's world units are decimeters, and so is
the output of OniSplit: centimeters have nothing to do with
it. The problem is that early versions of the exporter got the
the meaning of the "meter" factor wrong. This will be fixed.

3)
I wouldn't spend any time on weapons right now. The Iron
Demon is worthless unless it has a convincing walk/turn
mechanism. And if he is essentially a stationary turret,
then weapon attachment is a snap anyway (cf camera).
Therefore I suggest you guys concentrate on the lower
body animation (shifting weight from one leg to the other,
walking, turning, stomping/kicking/shockwave attacks).

The upper body can be kept rigid at this point, and its
hierarchy is irrelevant. I'd keep it consistent with Oni's
generic skeleton, though, because Neo is right about
the weapon attachment: the bone index is determined
based on a mere flag in ONCC settings. The position
of the gun is snapped to the bone that has either the
index 18 or 14: this is hardcoded, and the best way
to ensure predictable behavior is to keep everything
consistent with the generic hierarchy of body parts.
Likewise, renaming bones is a bad idea, especially
if it's only a matter of personal convenience. Point
is, the modeling tool will sort siblings by name and
this will affect their order in the COLLADA file, and
this in turn will affect the order in which the bones
are stored in Oni, hence, again, a possibly broken
weapon attachment. Unless Bobbysoon is already
quite confident with the rigging and animating of
Oni's regular humanoids, I wouldn't advise him to
seek out any customization at all; it just isn't fair.
If he sticks to the usual bone names and hierarchy,
everything should be fine.

4)
I understand that Bobbysoon feels like modifying the
hierarchy of the skeleton, but this can and must be
avoided. The structure of the upper body is actually
quite rigid, and the animations will be few, so it is
quite possible (although not necessarily intuitive) to
design an animation scheme that is consistent with
the topology of Oni's generic "humanoid" skeleton.
The relative placement of the body parts will require
some creativity, as well as all the relative rotations,
but modifying the hierarchy is right out of question,
at least until Neo or I write up something definitive
about weapon attachment and aiming screens: it
is important to understand that the basic animating
will involve aiming screens and turning animations;
Bobbysoon should come to terms with this ASAP.

Bottom line: keep the upper body rigid, and focus
on the lower body. Start with weight-shifting from
one leg to the other, because that will be the main
ingredient of walking for a robot of that size (hence
the massive feet), and also of aiming and turning.
I might provide some illustrations of what I mean,
but I have no clear idea of my free time right now.

5)
Another thing that needs to be done is cosmetics.
Seventeen Seconds's model has some non-planar
quads that have been triangulated in inconsistent
ways on the left and right side of the model: these
should be fixed. More generally, normals will need
some more work: they should be recomputed using
hard edges where appropriate, and also angle-based
weights for adjacent polygons, for a better look ^_^

I know this is overly technical, but Bobbysoon may
know what I'm talking about. I'm not sure 3DS Max
supports angle-weighted normals; Mod Tool does." -- [[User:EdT|EdT]]

:Were you taking notes, Bobbysoon? There will be a test later :0) Anyway, I just wanted to throw some thoughts out there:
:* Let's not forget the unused walking sounds for the Iron Demon once we have an animation: [http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID_sounds.zip].
:* I think the Iron Demon definitely needs an additional weapon beyond the chainguns. We have to think ahead about that now, as it will affect the model. I propose a heat-seeking missile pod on the back, pointing upward. This would prevent the battle from becoming a simple game of "stay out of the ID's line of sight" and throw a wild card out there once in a while for Konoko to deal with. Assuming we can train the AI to use it correctly.
:* Has anyone given thought to the fact that the two guns are parallel to each other? This means that aiming at a point in-between the guns is impossible unless the arms can turn inward and outward. More obviously, the arms also need upward-downward range, in case Konoko is fighting it from a walkway like in the trailer.
:All that being said, I agree with geyser that walking should probably be the priority. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

*The eye will be it's head then. Sounds good to me. I'll model it a sphere, unless it should be uv animated? Is that possible?

*I think I've fixed it's geometry errors, but we'll see

*How does this look? [http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w161/bobbysoon/Gatling.jpg Gatling] That added some polys. Now it's at 3004 triangles, 1615 verts

*ColladaMAX has an option to export normals. I got a basic idea of what they're about - I think I'd need to calculate them somehow (i think i've seen a script for this) after applying smoothing groups. I'm not too great with the smoothing though.

*I'll use the default structure and names. Point taken about the skeletal structure, especially after noticing the shoulders are linked to the neck D=.

*the TRAS aiming screen closely resembles a section of Halo's model_animations tag. [http://wiki.oni2.net/OBD:TRAS This] in Oni is like [http://forum.halomaps.org/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=24629 this] in Halo, which I've done.
*:If I recall correctly, there were 2 types of aiming/looking overlays. Referring to that information in application to a particular type yielded undesired results - axis reversals. So I wonder just how similar these engines are. Some of the provided mapping of halo's engine may be useful with oni.

*could ai weapon systems be attached to the ID? Or devices? I'm guessing the Deadly Brain was a device. A similar device (in function, not form of course) would be interesting

*If at all possible, but probably infeasable, I thought it might be interesting to have the chin pod be a lasor that paints a dot, which the rockets home in on. Could a projectile impact (the painted dot) spawn a character of a 3rd team? The missile pod would be a 4th team, out to get only the 3rd team.

*having the cannons be attached characters could also solve the parallel barrels problem. Not that it's a problem if the rounds are explosive!

--[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 01:41, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

:*There's no capacity in Oni for animated UV maps AFAIK, although animated textures are possible (but on people? not totally sure).
:*The gatlings look great to me. The polys/verts sound fine.
:*geyser's point 5 is rather nitpicky, so if it's labor-intensive, don't knock yourself out worrying about normals on a model with such minimalist texturing, it can't be that noticeable of a difference, can it?
:*Sorry, I didn't get your question about an AI being attached to the ID; I mean, it will definitely have some AI profile or else it won't do anything, but beyond that, you lost me.
:*The laser sounds tricky, but fake characters may not even be needed to pull it off; Oni's particle system is probably the most sophisticated part of the engine, so perhaps the laser dot particle can attract the missile particle. However, in terms of gameplay, it seems that it would defeat the purpose of the homing missile if the ID had to face a location to aim a missile there. Then we're back to just staying out of its sights all the time. Well, that's my opinion, anyway.
:--[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

::*I mean, characters attached to a character, like attaching several TCTF characters to Konoko, that would engage enemies around her, independent of her targeting.
::*Then scrolling text in [http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w161/bobbysoon/scrollText.jpg this] green LED display ''might'' be possible. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]]

:::*Animated textures are possible on characters. Ask 'dox. :)
:::*Laser dot would be kind of meh. I could make one, but you wouldn't be able to see it. We'll see when I get home. But I can do guided missles, don't worry ^_^.
:::*On the guns not aiming at the same place: don't worry. We can aim to the left and the right using the targeting vectors of the ONWC, for each weapon mode. Please, don't worry about making the weapons. Just give me a spec of whatever you want them to do, and I can make it. Also, look in the comic, and see what weapons the Demon uses there. *sigh* I'll have to do up a railgun weapon sometime here, to fight this bastard. :P
:::*Also, we can have an extending gun pod, using attached particles. ^_^
:::*I wish I was home now, I want to work on this. I probably won't be able to respond for another week, when I get home, unfortunately. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 02:25, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

::::*Re: what weapon will be used against the Iron Demon... [http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20&%20Rla.jpg] ^_^
::::*"look in the comic, and see what weapons the Demon uses there". You really don't want to know. Do you? Okay, [[:image:Oni_Comic_Issue_1_p23.jpg|here]], don't say I didn't warn you. Konoko then magically turns her pistol into a rocket launcher on page 3 of issue 2 and does [[:Image:Oni_Comic_Issue_2_p4.jpg|this]]. At least they got that last part right. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Loser and I had a chat and came up with a tentative plan for the ID's weapons:
* What weapons will the mech have?
:* The chainguns, obviously. Per a chat with EdT, we should be able to give the ID infinite ammo to we don't have to worry about reloading.
:* Homing missile launcher. Keeps Konoko on her toes even when she isn't in the ID's sights.
:* Gas grenade launcher. For when the mech does not have a line of sight to the enemy but knows where they are hiding and wants to smoke them out. The gas is toxic enough that you won't want to hang around if a 'nade gets lobbed next to the thing you're hiding behind.
:* Flamethrower. A close- or mid-range attack if the player lets the ID get too close, or stupidly charges the ID to get inside the range of its chainguns.
:* Tesla discharge field. Another close-range attack (for story purposes it could be a defense against people who would try to get into the mech). Used alternatingly in place of flamethrower or else at even closer distances. Forms a sphere of electricity around the mech.

* Where will the weapons be on the mech?
:* Chainguns are a "duh", but what about the other weapons? (Edit: Actually, Loser brought up the idea of making the barrels PAR3s attached to the model, so they can rotate when they fire, is that doable?)
:* The homing missile launcher could be mounted on the back of the ID, pointing up (could be a simple hole in the existing model's upper back) because it would allow firing in all directions, and also, it would simply look cool for the missile to fire up, and come arcing down to chase Konoko around corners as she runs.
:* The chin gun (is it still there?) could be altered to look like it can fire gas grenades.
:* The flamethrower should be placed low on the body, since flames rise. Perhaps we can use the holes in the leg plates for this. By simply adding hoses that attach from the back of the holes to the feet, we would demonstrate where the fuel comes from ([http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20plus%20hoses.jpg incredibly crude sample illustration]).
:* The electric field doesn't need to be based in some physical aspect of the model (but personally I wonder what that [[wikipedia:Dynamo|cylinder]] attached to its back with warning stripes does...) :-3 --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:30, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

* How will the weapons be used?
:* I think we're leaning towards making the AI use melee TRAMs, right? So the chainguns will be some generic long-distance attack

:I've made the chainguns the wrists, centered to spin. The wrists are the large forarms. The biceps are the arm-axis under the shield, and the shoulders are the shields over the arms, which are linked to the neck, 'cause that's how I found it...
:Some recoil can occur with the whole arm kicking back 5 degrees or so
:I did drop the gunpod, but I'm expecting to rework the model and textures again for such accommodations
:I've made TRBS and TXMPs. Next, an idle animation
:*What's the simplest way to get this in-game?
:*What's with the %2Fs in the names? I see in the xml those names imply folders. are those necessary?

User talk:Bobbysoon

2009-09-05T02:06:14Z

Bobbysoon:

==Iron Demon creation related==
I see, in the [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLZ2hJZvrmo Second Oni Trailer], @1:25, the Iron Demon has a weapon variant on it's right arm. How do we do this?

--[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 20:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
:Just attach the barrel to the arm. No need to worry about the weapon varients, as the demon probably won't use a real gun. As I said below, a dummy weapon will be the way to go. I'll do all of the particle work. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 21:45, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

:Rather than guess, I'll let someone more knowledgeable answer the modeling questions. I don't know of the Iron Demon appearing anywhere else beyond what is found on the [[Iron Demon]] page. I'm pretty sure there's no video of it, at the very least (unless you count [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa-h6lXQ-p4 this] fan product). As to the Iron Demon's secondary weapon, it seems to be the early Scram Cannon that Konoko is using at 1:05 and 1:54. It might make more sense to have an alternate-firing mode that uses built-in rocket launchers on the arms, rather than trying to reproduce the gun they tacked somewhat strangely onto the model in the trailer. As to how to give the ID distinct weapons and cordon them off from the weapons that other characters can cycle through (and vice versa), that's a good question I hadn't thought of, but I know EdT was looking into the weapon side of things.... --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:44, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

perhaps we could improve upon it's wielding of a weapon, such as an aesthetically appealing port/clamp, if built-in and not dropping weapons aren't possible --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 21:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

::I think you're going to be the trailblazer in this area of Oni Modding. :-) I have limited experience with 3D models, so I don't know if the hierarchy can be changed, but my guess is that you can't. The Oni engine is probably expecting a certain parent child relationship with each of the body parts. As regards the names, I suppose you could make a quick test of a current model, change the part names and see what happens. [[User:EdT|EdT]]

::You should be able to rename the bones, the names are used by OniSplit only to ensure that the children of a bone have the same order as in the original Oni skeleton. As for changing the hierarchy, hmm, that should work in theory, after all that's why [[TRIA]] exists. However in practice the engine might use hard coded bone indices. For example I have no idea how the engine knows which bone to attach a weapon to, it's not like in [[TRIA]] or somewhere else there's a flags that tells "this is the right hand". [[User:Neo|Neo]]
:::If all else fails, we can use particle based attacks. We could have up to six different attacks (P, K, J+P, J+K, C+P, C+K), or more if we utilized the combo system sneakily, so its not a huge problem. Recoil would be accomplished with a custom attack animation. These "weapons" would be completely built in though. I'm not sure how we would accomplish aiming though. The other possibility is to give it a dummy weapon and give the recoil animations particle attacks. We would be limited to two aiming attacks and two non aiming attacks though. (Using primary fire, secondary fire, jump, and crouch). We can burn those bridges when we come to them I suppose. When I get home I'll have to test out some AI behavior. Also, an image of the bone structure you are using might be nice. Having extra bones for a "vulnerable" part or retractable weapon would be cool. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 14:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Vulnerable parts might also be doable with 3D particles. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:03, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Negatory. The only way to do it is with a seperate eye\head bone. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 21:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

*pelvis
**thighs
***boots
****feet
**body
***cannons
****cannon barrels
***gunpod arm
****gunpod
*****gunpod barrel
*remaining nodes:4, or 5 - I don't think the gunpod really needs recoil action

I found out how to render new textures from the old ones! Yay! Usefull when re-grouping mesh parts
--[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 21:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

:Looks good. Might I suggest an actual head so it can turn and look at things? [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 21:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

::That would be it's body, assuming the red thing on it's front is it's eye [[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 23:01, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
::For proof that the torso's also the "head", or face, see the collage of Lorraine's face portraits [[:Image:Oni_Faces.jpg|here]]. :-3 --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
::It appears to be rotated. So then, the eye is it's head --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 01:41, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments from geyser, by email to EdT:

"
Note that, during an animation, bones can only *rotate*
with respect to each other, so parallel shift, like recoil
or a retractable gun pod, can only be implemented in a
rather hackish way (as a rotation with respect to a center
that is very far away from the character's body parts). I'd
rather suggest to forget about the chin-mounted cannon
(which is an original invention by Seventeen Seconds,
and doesn't really put the chainguns to shame at all).
It may be useful to compensate for the Iron Demon's
limited ability to rotate, but the point is moot in the
absence of any animation at all. Forget it for now.

As for the chainguns, I'd allow them to rotate on their
long axis, just the way miniguns or Gatling guns do.
Note that in the original concept the guns have three
barrels each, as opposed to 17secs's rendition, and
I think we should bring back that aspect of the model.

I think it's too early to think of the weapons, anyway.
There's plenty of stuff to do on the animation front.

2)
Bobbysoon's comment on inconsistent units is relevant,
but incorrect. Oni's world units are decimeters, and so is
the output of OniSplit: centimeters have nothing to do with
it. The problem is that early versions of the exporter got the
the meaning of the "meter" factor wrong. This will be fixed.

3)
I wouldn't spend any time on weapons right now. The Iron
Demon is worthless unless it has a convincing walk/turn
mechanism. And if he is essentially a stationary turret,
then weapon attachment is a snap anyway (cf camera).
Therefore I suggest you guys concentrate on the lower
body animation (shifting weight from one leg to the other,
walking, turning, stomping/kicking/shockwave attacks).

The upper body can be kept rigid at this point, and its
hierarchy is irrelevant. I'd keep it consistent with Oni's
generic skeleton, though, because Neo is right about
the weapon attachment: the bone index is determined
based on a mere flag in ONCC settings. The position
of the gun is snapped to the bone that has either the
index 18 or 14: this is hardcoded, and the best way
to ensure predictable behavior is to keep everything
consistent with the generic hierarchy of body parts.
Likewise, renaming bones is a bad idea, especially
if it's only a matter of personal convenience. Point
is, the modeling tool will sort siblings by name and
this will affect their order in the COLLADA file, and
this in turn will affect the order in which the bones
are stored in Oni, hence, again, a possibly broken
weapon attachment. Unless Bobbysoon is already
quite confident with the rigging and animating of
Oni's regular humanoids, I wouldn't advise him to
seek out any customization at all; it just isn't fair.
If he sticks to the usual bone names and hierarchy,
everything should be fine.

4)
I understand that Bobbysoon feels like modifying the
hierarchy of the skeleton, but this can and must be
avoided. The structure of the upper body is actually
quite rigid, and the animations will be few, so it is
quite possible (although not necessarily intuitive) to
design an animation scheme that is consistent with
the topology of Oni's generic "humanoid" skeleton.
The relative placement of the body parts will require
some creativity, as well as all the relative rotations,
but modifying the hierarchy is right out of question,
at least until Neo or I write up something definitive
about weapon attachment and aiming screens: it
is important to understand that the basic animating
will involve aiming screens and turning animations;
Bobbysoon should come to terms with this ASAP.

Bottom line: keep the upper body rigid, and focus
on the lower body. Start with weight-shifting from
one leg to the other, because that will be the main
ingredient of walking for a robot of that size (hence
the massive feet), and also of aiming and turning.
I might provide some illustrations of what I mean,
but I have no clear idea of my free time right now.

5)
Another thing that needs to be done is cosmetics.
Seventeen Seconds's model has some non-planar
quads that have been triangulated in inconsistent
ways on the left and right side of the model: these
should be fixed. More generally, normals will need
some more work: they should be recomputed using
hard edges where appropriate, and also angle-based
weights for adjacent polygons, for a better look ^_^

I know this is overly technical, but Bobbysoon may
know what I'm talking about. I'm not sure 3DS Max
supports angle-weighted normals; Mod Tool does." -- [[User:EdT|EdT]]

:Were you taking notes, Bobbysoon? There will be a test later :0) Anyway, I just wanted to throw some thoughts out there:
:* Let's not forget the unused walking sounds for the Iron Demon once we have an animation: [http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID_sounds.zip].
:* I think the Iron Demon definitely needs an additional weapon beyond the chainguns. We have to think ahead about that now, as it will affect the model. I propose a heat-seeking missile pod on the back, pointing upward. This would prevent the battle from becoming a simple game of "stay out of the ID's line of sight" and throw a wild card out there once in a while for Konoko to deal with. Assuming we can train the AI to use it correctly.
:* Has anyone given thought to the fact that the two guns are parallel to each other? This means that aiming at a point in-between the guns is impossible unless the arms can turn inward and outward. More obviously, the arms also need upward-downward range, in case Konoko is fighting it from a walkway like in the trailer.
:All that being said, I agree with geyser that walking should probably be the priority. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

*The eye will be it's head then. Sounds good to me. I'll model it a sphere, unless it should be uv animated? Is that possible?

*I think I've fixed it's geometry errors, but we'll see

*How does this look? [http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w161/bobbysoon/Gatling.jpg Gatling] That added some polys. Now it's at 3004 triangles, 1615 verts

*ColladaMAX has an option to export normals. I got a basic idea of what they're about - I think I'd need to calculate them somehow (i think i've seen a script for this) after applying smoothing groups. I'm not too great with the smoothing though.

*I'll use the default structure and names. Point taken about the skeletal structure, especially after noticing the shoulders are linked to the neck D=.

*the TRAS aiming screen closely resembles a section of Halo's model_animations tag. [http://wiki.oni2.net/OBD:TRAS This] in Oni is like [http://forum.halomaps.org/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=24629 this] in Halo, which I've done.
*:If I recall correctly, there were 2 types of aiming/looking overlays. Referring to that information in application to a particular type yielded undesired results - axis reversals. So I wonder just how similar these engines are. Some of the provided mapping of halo's engine may be useful with oni.

*could ai weapon systems be attached to the ID? Or devices? I'm guessing the Deadly Brain was a device. A similar device (in function, not form of course) would be interesting

*If at all possible, but probably infeasable, I thought it might be interesting to have the chin pod be a lasor that paints a dot, which the rockets home in on. Could a projectile impact (the painted dot) spawn a character of a 3rd team? The missile pod would be a 4th team, out to get only the 3rd team.

*having the cannons be attached characters could also solve the parallel barrels problem. Not that it's a problem if the rounds are explosive!

--[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]] 01:41, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

:*There's no capacity in Oni for animated UV maps AFAIK, although animated textures are possible (but on people? not totally sure).
:*The gatlings look great to me. The polys/verts sound fine.
:*geyser's point 5 is rather nitpicky, so if it's labor-intensive, don't knock yourself out worrying about normals on a model with such minimalist texturing, it can't be that noticeable of a difference, can it?
:*Sorry, I didn't get your question about an AI being attached to the ID; I mean, it will definitely have some AI profile or else it won't do anything, but beyond that, you lost me.
:*The laser sounds tricky, but fake characters may not even be needed to pull it off; Oni's particle system is probably the most sophisticated part of the engine, so perhaps the laser dot particle can attract the missile particle. However, in terms of gameplay, it seems that it would defeat the purpose of the homing missile if the ID had to face a location to aim a missile there. Then we're back to just staying out of its sights all the time. Well, that's my opinion, anyway.
:--[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

::*I mean, characters attached to a character, like attaching several TCTF characters to Konoko, that would engage enemies around her, independent of her targeting.
::*Then scrolling text in [http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w161/bobbysoon/scrollText.jpg this] green LED display ''might'' be possible. --[[User:Bobbysoon|Bobbysoon]]

:::*Animated textures are possible on characters. Ask 'dox. :)
:::*Laser dot would be kind of meh. I could make one, but you wouldn't be able to see it. We'll see when I get home. But I can do guided missles, don't worry ^_^.
:::*On the guns not aiming at the same place: don't worry. We can aim to the left and the right using the targeting vectors of the ONWC, for each weapon mode. Please, don't worry about making the weapons. Just give me a spec of whatever you want them to do, and I can make it. Also, look in the comic, and see what weapons the Demon uses there. *sigh* I'll have to do up a railgun weapon sometime here, to fight this bastard. :P
:::*Also, we can have an extending gun pod, using attached particles. ^_^
:::*I wish I was home now, I want to work on this. I probably won't be able to respond for another week, when I get home, unfortunately. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 02:25, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

::::*Re: what weapon will be used against the Iron Demon... [http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20&%20Rla.jpg] ^_^
::::*"look in the comic, and see what weapons the Demon uses there". You really don't want to know. Do you? Okay, [[:image:Oni_Comic_Issue_1_p23.jpg|here]], don't say I didn't warn you. Konoko then magically turns her pistol into a rocket launcher on page 3 of issue 2 and does [[:Image:Oni_Comic_Issue_2_p4.jpg|this]]. At least they got that last part right. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Loser and I had a chat and came up with a tentative plan for the ID's weapons:
* What weapons will the mech have?
:* The chainguns, obviously. Per a chat with EdT, we should be able to give the ID infinite ammo to we don't have to worry about reloading.
:* Homing missile launcher. Keeps Konoko on her toes even when she isn't in the ID's sights.
:* Gas grenade launcher. For when the mech does not have a line of sight to the enemy but knows where they are hiding and wants to smoke them out. The gas is toxic enough that you won't want to hang around if a 'nade gets lobbed next to the thing you're hiding behind.
:* Flamethrower. A close- or mid-range attack if the player lets the ID get too close, or stupidly charges the ID to get inside the range of its chainguns.
:* Tesla discharge field. Another close-range attack (for story purposes it could be a defense against people who would try to get into the mech). Used alternatingly in place of flamethrower or else at even closer distances. Forms a sphere of electricity around the mech.

* Where will the weapons be on the mech?
:* Chainguns are a "duh", but what about the other weapons? (Edit: Actually, Loser brought up the idea of making the barrels PAR3s attached to the model, so they can rotate when they fire, is that doable?)
:* The homing missile launcher could be mounted on the back of the ID, pointing up (could be a simple hole in the existing model's upper back) because it would allow firing in all directions, and also, it would simply look cool for the missile to fire up, and come arcing down to chase Konoko around corners as she runs.
:* The chin gun (is it still there?) could be altered to look like it can fire gas grenades.
:* The flamethrower should be placed low on the body, since flames rise. Perhaps we can use the holes in the leg plates for this. By simply adding hoses that attach from the back of the holes to the feet, we would demonstrate where the fuel comes from ([http://iritscen.oni2.net/temp/ID%20plus%20hoses.jpg incredibly crude sample illustration]).
:* The electric field doesn't need to be based in some physical aspect of the model (but personally I wonder what that [[wikipedia:Dynamo|cylinder]] attached to its back with warning stripes does...) :-3 --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:30, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

* How will the weapons be used?
:* I think we're leaning towards making the AI use melee TRAMs, right? So the chainguns will be some generic long-distance attack

:I've made the chainguns the wrists, centered to spin. The wrists are the large forarms. The biceps are the arm-axis under the shield, and the shoulders are the shields over the arms, which are linked to the neck, 'cause that's how I found it...
:Some recoil can occur with the whole arm kicking back 5 degrees or so
:I did drop the gunpod, but I'm expecting to rework the model and textures again for such accommodations
:I've made TRBS and TXMPs. Next, an idle animation
:*What's the simplest way to get this in-game?

User talk:Bobbysoon

2009-09-05T01:57:50Z

Bobbysoon:

User talk:Bobbysoon

2009-09-03T22:50:15Z

Bobbysoon: possible maybes

User talk:Bobbysoon

2009-09-03T21:28:30Z

Bobbysoon: