OniGalore - User contributions [en]

Review criticisms

2012-10-06T18:09:36Z

Otaku-kun: /* Graphics & Sound */

<center><big>'''What can we do to improve on the original Oni?'''</big></center>
<center>from the mouths of the critics</center>

{{divhide|About this page (an introductory rant)}}

{{pullquote|I've been trying to think of what we really can do at this point to truly improve Oni. IE: If Oni was rated a 7 in some gaming magazine, [how] we['d raise] it to an 8.|Gumby|width=40%|align=justify}}

The above thought really put things into perspective for me. Right now, our main focus for the AE is adding BGI. That's a good idea, because it was originally part of the game before cuts were made... but overall, the approach to the AE has been one of adding new content, instead of stepping back and asking what made the Oni of 2001 get the middling scores that it did. Loving what we love about the game, it can be hard to see the game objectively. We usually come up with ideas that make Oni more complex or that tweak it minorly, but rarely are we able to get to the heart of what prevented Oni from getting the highest marks. So I decided to poll the reviews that Oni was given, and use their words. It's not that we aren't capable of criticizing Oni... but it is harder for us than it is for them; they're ''paid'' to criticize!

Following are some quotes that I felt offered "food for thought". I haven't bothered to attribute them; I'm not writing a research paper here; besides, I want us to focus on what was said, not who said it. All quotes come from either reviews listed on the [[Reviews]] page, or from the list that [http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/oni?q=Oni Metacritic] used to determine Oni's average score of 7.3/10. You might find it difficult to read this all at once, as it's a lot of criticism for our beloved game. '''I suggest you take it in doses''' or you will get bitter or overwhelmed, and possibly mad at me for collecting all these critical quotes ^_^;

This page is titled rather informally because I want it to be viewed as only that, "food for thought", not as some task or burden that someone has to deal with; these are just things to talk about, nothing more :-). You may feel that some of the criticisms made here can't be fixed without tons of work or the source code for the game. That may be the case, but I felt it was important to be thorough, not to filter my findings for "practicality". Other things listed here you may not think to be a problem at all. If enough people feel that way, we can strike the item off the page, but I wanted to put as many critical points out there as I could find (minus a few comments that were just totally out of touch with what Oni is supposed to be). I've also left out what might be complaint #1 -- "no multiplayer" -- since that is already being worked on, and the dead horse needn't be beaten any more than it already has over the last seven years.

Long-term, my hope is that this page may provide a vision that goes beyond the current approach we're taking to the AE. After all, if we can actually, gradually, improve on the elements of Oni that non-dedicated fans thought were lacking, that gives us the best chance of bringing new people into the fandom and demonstrating to those who have rights to Oni what the game's potential is.

Finally, keeping in mind a certain complaint made about the last brainstorming page I made, I don't think there is such a thing as "too many ideas", or that making suggestions takes focus away from other work. True, reading through these quotes and talking about them takes time, but far less time than actually working on them. The idea here is to offer notions for future work. But anyone who's signed up for the [[Anniversary Edition/Team|AE Team]] is working on what they are assigned to/volunteered for, from a set list of tasks. So the ones who shouldn't be distracted by this ''won't'' be. The most important phase of any project is the part where ideas are generated, and the best are selected out of the rest, and worked on. '''Without all possible ideas on the table, we can't make the best use of our time and energy.''' Okay, enough rambling, on with the quotes! -- [[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]]
{{divhide|end}}

==Story==
{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|The strange thing is that her character still remains a very empty one. Most of her interactions with the game's other characters are extremely understated and reveal little about what people want to know about her. Part of this appears to be an effort to create a bigger mystery around what Konoko exactly is.}}

Before anyone speaks up in defense of the way things are, let me just throw one word out there: Casey. Someone we were already kinda considering adding (back) into the story. Perhaps a side story with him might allow us to flesh out Konoko's human side a little more. It's a tricky thing to contemplate, but I don't think that it shouldn't be brought up just because it's tricky. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:I can't comment on this much. Adding in BGI without screwing up the story is tricky enough as it is. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::This is the kind of thing that is very long-term (not something we'd aim to get into the next release of the AE, or even the one after that, etc.). As such, we need to allow this concept time to gel in our minds, and see if it's possible, or even a good idea. I think it will help to have a space to brainstorm in when we have a few minutes here and there. I recommend taking over [[AE_talk:Casey]] for that purpose. Anyone who has any thoughts on this idea that are more than a few words may want to just put them on that page so we can have plenty of room to discuss it. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)

==Gameplay==
===Game Design===
{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|Using stealth, you can sneak up on guards but I found this feature was far too underused.}}

Of course, this feature is only as "underused" as the player underuses it, but the point I took away from this was that it is rarely useful/smart to use stealth. It's too easy to be spotted with the way the enemy walks and turns around from time to time, and the benefit seems pretty negligible to taking someone out stealthily, so I think that's why we don't take the time to sneak around more often. It seems to me that fixing this might require moving some obstacles around in levels, and editing patrol paths, and possibly finding some way to make stealth a rewarding approach that can be used in place of charging in every time. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:Agreed. One thing at a time though, I can't do all the scripting here. -_- [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::Well, this, like Casey, might be a very long-term goal. We could put it way down on our list of priorities. For now, I'm just fishing for ideas, e.g., How can we make stealth rewarding to the player? One idea is to make stealth kills/KOs not alert any nearby AI, so there's a clear advantage to doing things that way when possible. I might have some more details to add later, possibly to a new page where this can be discussed in more depth. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008
(CET)
:::I apologize for intervening into this discussion, but I should react on some things.
::*First, stealth IS rewarding right now. Any back throw (considering my throw modification) deals 50 dmg minimal(Comguy's, 75 maximal(Muro's/Konoko's). Average health of enemies is around 60, so this is sort of stealth kill. After all, how do you think I play this game when I play for story? Yes, by stealth, giving unspotted backbreakers (+ Sledgehammer if enemy survives first assault) whenever it is possible.
::*Second, I think that kinda opposite of idea presented here, we need AIs to be more aware of surroundings. Remember my demo, where AI2 reacted on dead body, running close to it and examining it? That is what I mean. I have read it in numerous reviews - ''"Another minus points goes for stupid AI, which, apart from being excellent in combat, totally lacks other "intelligence". For example, it happily steps on dead body of his comrade player killed two seconds ago, ignoring him completely."'' Now this would not only look good, but it could be used as tactics how to pass some area unspotted. Kill right guy in right place, hide. Wait till comrades come near him. They will run near him to check. Now quickly use that second path you wanted to use, which was patrolled by those AI's who now check dead body.
::*Third,yes, moving dead bodies would be nice feature, but engine appearently does not support it.--[[User:Loser|Loser]] 22:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|That's not to say that Oni doesn't boast an impressive level here and there, such as an intense airport mission, but the overall scheme is disappointing. Most of the levels feature locked doors that are opened using computer terminals to bypass security. Later in the game, the pattern changes to having to use multiple computer terminals to open a locked door.}}

Another reviewer coins a term for this: "samey". He laments that a game with so much action could feel repetitive. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:I'd like some more things like with Warehouse (have to save an AI who can open the doors, etc...if your AI dies, you are SOL and lose...like in Loser's mod) [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::Never got to play that (I assume it's still PC-only???). But it's true that "protect" missions are usually thrown into a game to vary the action a bit. Frankly, I've never been a big fan of protect missions, but that's usually because they're so hard. If we adjust the difficulty juuuust right, this might work out well. Although I'm not sure Warehouse is the best place to use this idea; Konoko's got to go in on her own because it's a sensitive, covert mission. But still, having an ally in some level who can do something you can't is one good idea for offering more variety. Let's keep brainstorming for more other ways to make things less "samey". I suggest we think about the airport level -- I agree with the reviewer on its being more intense. ''Why'' is it more intense? What makes it better than some other levels? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:My two cents:
:*1. - Reviewer was probably influenced by demo. Yes, only my opinion. In times of demo Oni was still in hype phase, so when final product came and all reviewers competed who will drag it down more and make it look more dull, there was still some idea that "airport was good".
:*2. - Then for some exact stuff, Airport is storm type of mission. Almost no locked doors, lots of enemies, lots of gadgets (hypos, forcefields, guns), quite linear. Like a roller coaster. That makes it different from other "door puzzle" levels.
:*3. - Good old Warehouse mod was exactly extrapolation of reviewers opinion - it need more ideas, I stuffed some of them into Warehouse. Like jumping puzzles, finding key item, usage of other characters.
:*4. - Another ideas are in my head already, just I lack of time to work on them. Includes:
:::-stealing mad bomber's bomb and setting it to blast some doors/wall (usage of env_show/env_hide, PAR3 and trigvolumes)
:::-having a mission where you control a team and you have to accomplish task. There isn't Konoko in team (maybe Casey?). You can switch from one member to another, others are controlled by AI2 and follow you unless you order them to wait or unless they are in some zone where they ought to do some action. For example second level:
::::First part is played as Konoko, until "this is a wild goose chase" scene. Short after she is captured and held as hostage. Remember that Shinnie is linked to her, so Griffin sees that.
::::Player then gets into control of squad of three TCTFs. He must manage to get with at least two of them to key positions, so one(or two if all three are alive) are to distract/keep busy enemy forces, and one "goes from other side" and frees Konoko. Being free, Konoko becames "part" of team, altogether they all defeat enemy forces (all TCTFs can die now without it being game over) and want to get out.
::::If some TCTFs are alive, they secure escape path. Otherwise it does not matter. Konoko goes for deactivation of deadly brain. Deactivation is done only in two waves of console shutting. Then deadly brain jams consoles which surround him and starts countdown to Xiox explosion (remember - he went nuts).
::::You have to shut him down by turning off his power supply. That means you have to have some gun (let there be some gun somewhere on ground wich can be reachable when you load this savepoint). You run from Deadly brain room, head into "engines of evil" hall, there you have to shoot some cables to cause blackout. If you try to shoot Deadly brain directly, it does nothing to him.
::::-maybe more --[[User:Loser|Loser]] 22:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|There’s some promise shown early on with disabling the Deadly Brain even though it’s a modified jumping puzzle but it’s not found anywhere else. More innovation would have been welcomed.}}

Well, the Deadly Brain "puzzle" is found one more time... but I don't think that invalidates the point he/she is making. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:I don't like gimmicky things like this, but to each his own. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::For one thing, I am not even sure I consider the Deadly Brain a jumping puzzle (does anyone actually jump while fighting the one in Ch. 2? I sure don't.). But maybe it would make sense to require more agility from the player than simply timing their runs from console to console.
::But Gumby, you brought up another point -- I think you're saying that you aren't crazy about boss fights where there's some gimmick to beating them, right? Arguably, that might not be the direction we want to take Oni in. Currently, none of the boss fights are particularly gimmick-based (Mutant Muro is close, but doesn't really count IMO). Then again, that kind of boss fight can make things more interesting and force the player to use their wits more. What do you other guys feel on the matter? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|[...] the building structures may be nice, but aside from a few of your standard "jump" obstacles there is very little to actually interact with.}}

<nowiki>*</nowiki>cough* *cough* Movable chairs would be a nice start. Remind me again, someone, why we haven't been able to do that? Is it bad collision detection? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)
Moveable furniture feature is in engine but it is incomplete and bugged, thus useless.

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|Despite the wonderfully crafted training tutorial stage for players to get accustomed to the complex controls, the minute the actual in-game mission started, I still found myself ill-prepared and dying and restarting quite frequently.}}

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|The only thing I didn't like was the lack of a section in the training camp where one could actually spar with foes outside the game. A lot of the best moves just happen, but an experienced user can pull off miraculous combinations. Presently, there's no safe place to practice these, and I hope Bungie provides one.}}

There's nothing wrong with a learning curve, of course. But wouldn't we all, as newbies, have welcomed a return to the training level, to practice moves that you had newly obtained? This is more practical, story-wise, if the room is indeed in virtual space, as there is some indication. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:There are a few spots in the game where there is an empty level slot...but remember there is a point in the game where you can't go back to the nice training room. :)
::Yes, you're quite right. Even if the room is virtual, if it relies on the TCTF computers or on Shinatama in some way, it won't be accessible after Chapter 6. That's... pretty early on, considering a number of moves are yet to be unlocked at that point. If, however, Konoko can access this room on her own (how?) she can use it between any levels we want. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|Though the game is linear, there's more than one way to achieve an objective. Honestly, that's half the fun, plotting plan B, C, D, etc. after plan A falls flat on its face.}}

This statement actually feels overly generous to me. Are there really multiple paths to each goal? Certainly in some places, but I don't feel that Oni is consistent in this; surely with such large levels, we can find some way to make things a bit more non-linear? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:More scripting :( [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::I'm not so sure about that, Gumby. Remember geyser's efforts to reveal hidden doors in the Warehouse? Allowing alternate paths in a level is sometimes all that's needed to make the game non-linear. Of course, that might require some touch-up of the scripting to prevent the level from being broken by the player following a newly-made path, but that shouldn't involve major effort. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|Allied characters are few and far between, and also very stupid; at no point do you really feel as part of a 'team' in a coordinated attack. This is a shame, as it could have been a real boost to gameplay at some points.}}

This sounds like, not a criticism of the AI's general intelligence, but of the fact that in situations like the attack on TCTF HQ, your allies can't even follow you to other floors. This seems like a scripting flaw to me, not an AI2 problem. Also, look at gmsly's approach to [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvbTT64WDzE using teams] (see 1:40 and 1:50) and tell me that's not exactly what the reviewer would have loved to see. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:Indeed, we can add more characters to the levels. I need to play gmsly's script sometime, but it looks good. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]

===Technical Stuff===
{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|There's no way to re-configure the controls, at least not without editing a non-documented file.}}

I know we have third-party tools for doing this, and the startup dialog box (that's currently broken for both OS X and Windows), but doesn't it seem like there should be some way to make this part of the interface? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:No matter what geyser says, I cannot find any key binding dialog box. However, someone (me? :<) could write up a utility called up at start (either through a .bat or the Daodan) to edit the keys. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::Is it feasible to hack the WMDDs or whatever, to add a new screen where keys are set? The Daodan can monitor what's actually done on that screen, so as to write the appropriate changes to key_config.txt (this leaves the Mac out, of course :-( ). That way we could present an actual Oni-like, in-game screen for changing these settings. You already added the Options button to the mid-game Main Menu, so that's what made me wonder if this was possible. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:::Hacking WMDDs = complicated. I would just have a win32 dialog pop up, simple as that. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|Oni automatically saves your game at certain points of a mission, but there's no way to save your progress whenever you want to.}}

It seems that since the level scripting is based around the current, fixed savepoints, we can't just give the player the ability to save anytime, anywhere. We ''can'' add more savepoints, though, which is sort of on the long-term To-Do list already. Any other ideas on this subject? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:My view is that if you can't beat an SP, change your strategy. :) Indeed, we can't change the SP system. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::Maybe only a couple additional SPs are needed. I vote for another one in Ch. 3, for instance. What do others feel on the subject? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|There are frequent points in the game where Konoko's survival depends on how quickly she can flee. Say you just defeated an opponent strapped with C4 hooked to a three-second timer. As he's dropping, he activates the self-destruct. You'd think Konoko would want to get out of there in a hurry. But instead of adding a single "dash" button to the controls to speed up Konoko's default run, it is a double-tap forward affair which, in the most inopportune times, can result in some kind of sluggish ambling followed by a speedy death.}}

I know we are going to turn off Konoko's auto-dash hack in future AE releases, right? I do feel that's a good idea, but it will also reintroduce the above problem. So, what about a "dash" key? Is that possible? A separate key from the normal run key, or else using a modifier in conjunction with that key? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:For PC - maybe (though I don't like the idea), for Mac - doubt it, unless you can do something like the Daodan DLL. --[[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::What don't you like about it? Saying that an idea is a bad one *is* a valid response to any of these points, after all, but I want to know why you feel that way. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:::You either like the autodash or you don't. I don't see why you would want both. I _suppose_ we could replace walk anims with dash anims. Hey, now there is an idea. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|The game itself exhibits many “clipping” problems in which characters can pass through walls, hang off ledges and pass through solid objects in such a way that one is jarringly reminded that you are playing a computer game. It is very common to enter a room, look back and find the foot or head of your just-vanquished foe sticking through the wall or protruding through the closed door; in several places in the game you can even fight an opponent through the closed door they are guarding, while being totally immune to gunfire.}}

I know Loser already has done some experimentation with making characters actually *hit* walls, which should prevent most, if not all, of the "clipping" problems (I consider this to be a collision problem, not a clipping problem, but I guess it depends how you define "clipping"). I guess I just need to know what Loser's current feelings are on what we can actually do for this problem. Is the system he worked on going to be practical? I know he had concerns about it being too hard on the engine. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|I’ve heard several arguments from fans of the game and Oni team members that keeping a constant distance between the POV and Konoko is essential for aiming range weapons and timing your attacks, and to a certain extent I buy this logic – if, that is, I had never played Rune or FAKK2.}}

This is sure to be a controversial point, as I think most of us are fine with the JelloCam, but I've put it here anyway for discussion, not because I necessarily agree with it. I need to go back and play Rune and FAKK2 before I form an opinion, myself (can't remember how the cameras worked). --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:Can't comment. Never played em. Would be complicated to change the cam though. --[[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::I included this even though I can only see it being changed if we had the source. I still think it might be useful to evaluate this point, though, even if we currently can't do anything about it. I can't say whether I even ''want'' to do anything about it until I have revisited those games, though. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|Violating one of the ten commandments of game design, Bungie for some reason decided to not include the option of skipping cutscenes. We wouldn't have had a problem if we were forced to watch a cutscene the first time, but, thanks to the autosave issue, you may be forced to watch the same cut scene over and over again.}}

We already have a solution to this, courtesy of Gumby, although it is not yet part of the AE. This quote can be considered a reminder that it should be, though. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:Yep. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]

===Gun Combat===
{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|Weapons mysteriously disappear as time passes if left on the ground.}}
;Fixed - http://gumby.oni2.net/AE/release/nofade.zip
;The only limitation is that you should avoid spawning more than 64 weapons. OTA should still be ok, as it cleans up the weapons after every round. If you do spawn too many, the first ones get deleted any any new ones have no physics context (they float in midair...)
;[[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 14 December 2008 (CET)

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|[...] you can't put the largest cannons in down in your shorts just as you can with smaller weapons.}}

I can only imagine the reviewer was thinking of the WMC when he wrote this. Of course, all other weapons can be holstered. But maybe this reviewer should be right. I know we've already discussed making rifles unholsterable; so what's the current feeling on making that change in the AE? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|The enemies have some killer aim, and can get off many more shots before the player is able to get a few well-aimed shots off. This is of course resolved by closing distance with the enemy but in my experience it is just as safe to dodge weapon based attacks by dashing towards the enemy. Other equipment like the force field belt, and an overdose of hypos provide the extra boost to accomplish this sort of thing without taking a scratch.}}

I think this is a very valid point about a flaw in the gameplay's balance. To this end, Gumby has experimented with the AI's accuracy setting, which inexplicably is set to 1 (basically, "god-like") in the ONCCs even though a wide range of accuracy is possible. We've found that a setting of 3 (that right, Gumby?) seems to give the AI realistic human-like accuracy. Anyone else have any thoughts on this subject? And let's get that movie up here, Gumby, where you adjust the skill setting in realtime. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:Yes, three is a good amount. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|[...] the Mercury Bow, a scopeless pseudo-sniper rifle}}

"Scopeless", eh? Well, now, I believe we might be able to do something about that ;-) --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:Sniper script = meh, but works. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::What don't you like about it? I'm curious to know. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:07, 10 December 2008 (CET)

===Melee Combat===
{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|The lack of a good off-the-floor attack in Konoko’s moves vocabulary is a surprising omission, considering how often she gets knocked down.}}

If I could get the engine to see them differently (i gotta look at the anim types), I would like to include a kick anim like the striker's down kick getup (but without the getup) and a kick getup like Konoko currently has. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
:I have tried to include such a move, idea was shot down by Gumby himself and Iritscen as too spammy (and yes, it WAS spammy). And with forced pauses it looks weird ( why I can kick only each 3 seconds if nothing holds me? ). Maybe it needs some flashy animation to extend recovery time ?--[[User:Loser|Loser]] 13:33, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|[Y]our opponents and Konoko fall flat on their backs much too easily; in fact it is often tough to land a good combo because your opponent is already stretched out flat after the second blow.}}

So, I'm wondering what would happen if we seriously reduced the frequency of knockdowns. Wouldn't it make for a faster-paced fight, and thus a more exciting one? Longer combos, and less times where you relax while your opponent takes his time getting to his feet? I'm particularly curious to hear other opinions on this one. Does Oni, in fact, over-use knockdowns? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 01:25, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
:Well, this might make group fights painful, if they could continuously lay into you. It is easily changeable though. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 02:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

==Graphics & Sound==
===Animation===
{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|When you send an enemy down to the ground, they tend to drop as if they've suffered a concussion. They don't squirm at all, they just lay there for a few seconds and then they pop back to their feet, ready for round two.}}

I think the reviewer was seeing the combination of (a) some unusually long "idle times" (or "nap times", as I call them) for some characters such as Tankers, and (b) the fact that fallen animations are actually kind of weak -- characters just kind of gently float to the ground sometimes, and immediately stop moving when touching said ground, which is not how it works in real life -- and (c) as the reviewer says, the enemies don't move from the time they fall to the time they get up. Honestly, I don't see a problem with (c) as long as (a) and (b) can be addressed. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:What I got out of this quote was that the AI was completely unchanged from beat down 1 to beat down 2. If you were to be beaten, tossed, punch, kicked, etc. you would fall on the ground and get up, but when you were up for the second time you would show signs that you were beaten up, you would act like you were in pain. So this is probaly a job for animators as well as character modders. Otaku-kun

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|If you throw someone while they are near a wall or a railing, they magically float down to the floor rather than smash against the wall or topple over the edge.}}

===Graphics===
{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|In puzzling fashion, the dialogue is presented using close-up portraits of the characters that are speaking. The lack of animation in these cut-scenes is quite distracting and really takes away from the overall experience of the game.}}

Under "Graphics" and not "Animation" because by "animation" I think the reviewer wants facial expressions to change, or at least for the mouths on the characters to move, and this can be accomplished by animated textures more easily than 3D animation... which is not to say that it's necessarily practical to do with texture animation either... thoughts? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|Bungie has managed to create situations that are absolutely devoid of dramatic camera angles and detailed settings, and the mission scripting is pretty skimpy too. Story sequences are restricted to real-time cut scenes involving poorly animated character models conversing with out of place portraits representing each character's voice at the top of the screen.}}

A lack of "dramatic camera angles" probably refers to the fact that there are few close-ups in the cutscenes; this is probably due to the non-animated faces, which Bungie wanted to avoid drawing attention to. See above quote. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|The levels are very large at times too, but not always terribly well designed, with some rather shoddy texture work in areas. Japanese minimalism may be popular, but untextured areas don't really achieve this!}}

Obviously there are no truly untextured areas in the game. Let's face it, actual, real-life warehouses look boring too, that's not the fault of Oni's texture artists. I just want to say that I think one factor that led a lot of reviewers to complain about texturing was actually the poor lighting system Oni uses. I think that the lack of real depth in some areas of the levels probably subliminally made them feel like the walls were too bare, when really they just weren't properly lit. I've pointed the terrible lighting out in the past, such as in [http://iritscen.oni2.net/images/tnl/Oni-BadShadows1.jpg these] [http://iritscen.oni2.net/images/tnl/Oni-BadShadows3.jpg two] pictures. Of course, fixing this would require source. I still want to get you guys' thoughts on the matter. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|[...] a general emptiness of detail which would leave even a Bauhaus architect screaming for a potted plant or a water cooler to break up the monotony.}}

My feeling is that modern computers should be able to handle our adding some interior decoration to some levels. But -- let's just say we added a water cooler for the sake of discussion -- how would Oni handle collision with it? Is this going to be a problem? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:If it were baked in, we just place a collision box around it. If it were movable furniture, it would be buggy. Collisions are broken.[[User:Gumby|Gumby]]

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|The levels look decent but aren't particularly memorable (with the exception of the eerie dream level). There are a lot of futuristic offices and complexes, but not many are particularly distinct.}}

Could be considered a game design issue rather than a graphics issue... or not an issue at all, since Oni takes place in realistic settings, thus one should not expect fantastical levels (dream level aside). In what ways could we make the offices and such more distinct, or are they distinct enough already? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:We could put posters up easily :P That is about it that I can think of right now. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|Originally slated for release in the fourth quarter of 1999, the textures seem kind of bland and boring by today's standards. Even a year ago the graphics of Oni would be considered a bit outdated when compared to the likes of Quake III: Arena and Unreal Tournament. 32-bit color depth is supported, but Oni doesn't appear to take full advantage of the increased color palette.}}

This *is* true, isn't it, about Oni not being in 32-bit color? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:It ranges from 32bit to less+alpha. Close enough. The problem is the crappy textures. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]

{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|Apparently, in the future, there is a company with a monopoly on the security terminal market, because all throughout the game, you will come across the same exact terminal several dozen times per level, the only thing differentiating the terminals is an abstract shape displayed on the monitor.}}

===Sound===
{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|Footsteps [...] sound identical regardless of who makes them or where they come from.}}

Actually, there are different sounds for different floor materials, right? Even if so, this point is still partially valid. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:I can't recall. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
[[Category:Modding ideas]]

AE:Bug-fix and feature requests

2012-10-06T16:45:42Z

Otaku-kun: /* "Stop or I'll still shoot" */

{{Brainstorm}}
This is a place for reporting bugs in the AE and small fixes/improvements that the AE can make to original Oni. For general ideas for modding that don't fit within the current scope of the AE, see the [[Modding brainstorms]] page. For a broader perspective on improving Oni, see the [[AE:Food for thought|Food for thought]] page. If you're unclear on where your idea belongs, hopefully reading each page will give you an idea of what that page's scope is. --'''Iritscen'''

=Improvements on original Oni that AE can make=
==Widescreen fixes==
Various widescreen fixes are needed. For example when playing in a 16:9 resolution at the start of level 2, the camera is positioned behind a wall, in the Dream Lab level the photos in the opening cutscene can be seen before the animation starts and when playing in a 16:10 or 16:9 resolution in the Compound level, Konoko can be seen on the ground before she lands O_o. --'''Rossy

:I noticed while perusing Daodan-C's source code there was a "/* widescreen patch for talking heads */". Would that fix it? --'''Gumby

::I believe that the "widescreen patch" is a specific workaround that fixes only the "cinematics". See [[BSL:Frustum and fog|HERE]] for a more general fix. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 05:22, 22 September 2008 (CEST)

==Evil TCTF, or Explain This Odd Behaviour==
I don't know if this has already been fixed, but in my copy of Oni, there is a civilian in TCTF HQ that is set to the wrong team so good AIs attack her. --'''Rossy

:Is it the woman on the first floor in the side room with those wide long pieces of machinery in the middle of it? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 14:11, 20 September 2008 (CEST)
::I think so, yeah. --[[User:RossyMiles|rossy]] 03:32, 21 September 2008 (CEST)
:::I'm not too sure what to think about Iritscen's commitment to specificity... If it's '''a_v1''' you're talking about, there's nothing long or wide about the computer in her room. And if you mean '''lobby_victim06''', the floor she's on is not "first" in any way. Oh well... the point is, all those civilians, female or not, are in their typical Neutral team, and the TCTF AI won't attack them unless there is a glitch. The glitch is apparently due to some confusion in the awareness/knowledge/whatever system: apparently, if the TCTF see an enemy and a civilian "at the same time", they tend to label them both as hostilethreat. TCTF HQ is the only mission where TCTF can be seen around civilians after seeing them with hostiles and defeating the latter. The same glitch happens with TCTF VS SecurityGuard, and probably with Syndicate VS SyndicateAccessory. Custom scripts based on OTA could help investigate this bug more systematically. From a more practical point of view, the glitch can be fixed with timely calls to '''ai2_forget'''. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 05:22, 22 September 2008 (CEST)

==Missing gears sound==
When Dev Mode is one, and you are near the gears at the very end of Ch. 12, Science Prison, you get a message about a missing sound for the gears, some kind of ambient noise. It should be easy to find a royalty-free sound effect and stick it in there. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:02, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
:It would be even more easy to remove the line of the script that references a missing sound. :) [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 05:35, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
::I don't think it's a line in the script, I think the engine is telling us that there's a sound for that area around the gears that is missing. Anyway, to me this is an opportunity to add a little something to Oni, to fix a glitch in a constructive way, not to just find a way to remove an error message. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 11:46, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
:::The only reason the engine would do that is if the script called for a sound to be played. Five dollars says the scipters made a type though. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 14:57, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
::::I don't see where in the script it would be, nor does it seem like it *could* be in the script. I'm not talking about something that happens in a cutscene, but rather any time in-game that Konoko is near the gears. So it's a sound volume, or whatever we call them, that leads to Oni trying to play the sound. I also briefly checked the sound files and don't see anything about gears, so while it could be a typo, I think they just plain forgot to include the resource. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:13, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
:::::There is a gears.grp, but I don't quite know where the ambient is. The best solution IMO would be to use an existing Oni sound. I'll poke around and see what I can find. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 19:14, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
::::::The problem is that gears.grp references SNDDgears.aif and that one does not exist. [[User:Neo|Neo]]
:::::::I added a sound file with the name SNDDgears.aif.oni to AE and recompiled level0. Now there is no missing sound warning, but I don't hear any difference. If you want to try it: http://edt.oni2.net/AE_Files/SNDDgears.aif.oni.zip Now the sound is nothing special, just used it for a test. [[User:EdT|EdT]]
::::::::That sound will only work for Macs, I'll try my own experimentation. :) By the way, make sure the volume in gears.grp isn't too low...[[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 02:36, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

==Forgetful AI==
:Only one AI remembers the location of Konoko, while the others go inactive:
:http://edt.oni2.net/mov/1remembers.wmv
:Also, its always the last AI that is spawned that remembers where Konoko is and attacks her.

==BSL overload==
FATAL SCRIPTING ERROR: exceeded maximum scripting parameter base size of 32769
: When you decoy or throw enough guys into a fire then BSL get killed.
: It's probably caused by the [[OBD:BINA/OBJC/TRGV|TV inside function]]. "This one is triggered at every frame (60 times per second) unless the trigger-only-once flag is set."
: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edh4bV_hWqk Here's a vid.] Vanilla Oni suffers the same.
: Let's see if we can come up with a fix.
: Oh, and, if a group stands in a fire then it seems that only one character gets damage.
::Engine issue. :) We could always disable the TV and use particles. :P [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 03:20, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

==Aiming screens==
The shoulder joints of males look awkward for rifle aiming, and more generally extreme aiming angles look funky. This could be fixed by editing or adding keyframes in the aiming screen TRAM; however, there is still no reasonable pipeline for that. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 05:22, 22 September 2008 (CEST)

:Another issue is that KONRIF side rolls use an aiming screen. On one hand, it allows her to keep shooting while in the middle of a roll, which is cool. On the other, the weapon stays upright when aiming and rotates 360° through Konoko's fist, which is uncool (of course, it only shows up in slowmo and/or side view). There is no solution apart from disabling the aiming screen on KONRIF side rolls. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 05:22, 22 September 2008 (CEST)

=="Stop or I'll still shoot"==
The security guard's lines in the State building are kind of silly. "Stop, or I'll shoot". He shoots no matter what you do...>_> --[[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
:Konoko is a "class B threat" wanted dead or alive, who stays defiant in response to the warning, so his "screw this" attitude is understandable... However, it is rather straightforward for a scripter to freeze the action until the player actually "moves a muscle". Another detail is the backup the guard called for; maybe he didn't alert the whole building, but some kind of backup ought to be on its way. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 05:22, 22 September 2008 (CEST)
::Another option is to have one guard watch Konoko with the gun as the other guard goes running for a secrity terminal (to call other guards), this would force Konoko into action of have to face the trobles of more security guards. Otaku-kun

==Compound laser triggers==
They need to alert the enemies in the vicinity. That is all. :) [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 09:25, 7 December 2008 (CET)

==Droids shouldn't be bleeding==
I think we need to update ONIE file in next AE to fully support the blood mod. At the moment droid can also bleed although their materials are all "armor". A little electrical discharge might be a good 'eye catcher' for them.
::The issue is that I don't want to add ONIE mods into AE so that I set a good example. :) I'm on the fence on this one. :/ For now, think of it as your hands bleeding from hitting a metal object. :p [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 21:23, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
:::"For now, think of it as your hands bleeding from hitting a metal object. :p" You are forgetting when we shoot them! (joking)
:::I also think that there are more important things to do now, it can be fixed later. [[User:Script 10k|Script 10k]] 23:13, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

=AE Bug Reports=
==Dashing AI==
When you play as Muro, normal run (hold W) will end in a strange repeating movement change: one step sprint, one step run, and so on.--[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]]
:This must be part of the "AI dashing" mod, since I don't have it installed and Muro runs normally for me. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:02, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

==Domino knockdowns and fistsoflegend==
fistsoflegend is still broken. geyser indicated that knockdowns might be optional in the final release, but the question is, "Will using knockdowns always break fistsoflegend?". --'''Iritscen

:0) Didn't fistsoflegend suck anyway? 1) I can see there being no such thing as a "final release". 2) Knockdowns ''will'' be optional, that's not an option ^_^ The question is whether they will be fixed. If we can prevent spurious domino knockdowns (I believe we can, but maybe Loser knows better), then there is a chance that fistsoflegend will be redeemed. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 05:22, 22 September 2008 (CEST)

=AE Feature Requests=
[[Category:Anniversary Edition]][[Category:Modding ideas]]

Modding brainstorms

2012-10-05T14:53:24Z

Otaku-kun: /* AI improvements */

{{Brainstorm}}
Put any ideas for modding here. Some of these might be useful for the Edition, others might become standalone mods. If you think something is definitely prime material for the Edition (beware "scope creep", suggestions that make the Edition cover more ground than it already does), then it can go on the [[AE:Bug-fix and feature requests]] page for review. If your idea gives an answer to a criticism posed on the [[AE:Food for thought]] page, then you might want to post it there instead.

==Upgraded content==
;Textures
High-resolution textures are highly welcome. --'''geyser'''

The environment could do with less dull colors, and the character textures have far too much compression/dithering. --'''geyser'''

Another challenge is to add reflectivity channels to all the "metallic" parts (characters, objects, environment). --'''geyser'''
;Precipitation
What can we do with precipitation? The only precip. we see in the game is snow in the last level. What a tease! Can/should we add snow to other levels, or can we add new kinds of precip. like rain/sleet? --'''Iritscen'''
:Isn't there rain in Rooftops? [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::Er, hmm, I guess so! Strange that I forgot that. Maybe it wasn't raining hard enough :-D Well, I still want to see more precip. Snow in particular has some nice possibilities, aesthetically. I guess I just need to know how it is produced from the binary data. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 02:12, 14 November 2008 (CET)
:::Precipitation is set up in [[PART]]. I think what you really want is for the rain drops (or hail stones) to deal damage. Heavier rain/snow is possible, but it could mean a lot of stress for the engine, depending on how much is "enough". Another problem with heavy rain and snow would be the lack of realism on the ground: ripples in puddles or footprints in snow would have to be implemented with character-emitted particles, puddles themselves would have to be set up from scratch... Sounds like a lot of work. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:03, 14 November 2008 (CET)
::::Damaging precipitation is easy enough. Heavy rain is too much work, methinks, but snow could be done, maybe. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
:::::Just for the record, I never wanted damaging precip, that was geyser thinking weird things. Anyway, it was silly of me to forget that Rooftops has rain. So that makes two levels with precip, eh? That's not so bad as just one level with precip. I suppose that satisfies me... for now. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 02:53, 6 December 2008 (CET)

==Retrograded content==
It's hard not to notice that some stuff looked better pre-beta. Let's make a list and see if we can turn back time to give Oni back some of the pretty stuff it used to have. Look at the "Pre-beta content" page's screenshots for ideas, there's a heckuvalot of thing to remark upon there.

;Models & textures
Muro's face was a lot nicer back when they made the 1999 trailer. --'''geyser'''

One can also see animated terminal screens in the trailer. That's currently very doable if you ask me. --'''Iritscen'''

;Lighting
Barely visible in [http://geyser.oni2.net/genesis/screenshots/manplant/ot2_manplant1.jpg this] shot from the trailer is a totally different wall down in the lobby. The lights actually appear to cast light on the wall (not dynamic, I don't think, but s clever imitation of it), as opposed to now, and generally the whole area is just 100 times better-looking than it is now (maybe I will get a comparison shot up here at some point). Can this be done with vertex lighting or some other means that doesn't involve re-writing the engine? --'''Iritscen'''

[[:Image:Genesis_Level3_7.jpg|This]] is a beautiful shot of the early Lab. It shows just how good baked lighting can look. Now, I'm not saying we try to make the Lab look this way, because obviously the Lab is now seen in the daytime, not at night, but it shows what should be possible, particularly at night. --'''Iritscen'''

;Weapons
Some people have noticed that there are some different weapons in some early art and/or screenshots. Want to bring those up here? --'''Iritscen'''

One thing I can definitely see was different is the gun used [[:Image:Genesis_Level8_5.jpg|here]]; it's also got a laser sight! --'''Iritscen'''

;General
TCTF HQ looked [[:Image:Genesis_Level8_9.jpg|crazy better]] at one time; look at those sweet railings! --'''Iritscen''' by way of '''geyser'''

I'd like to see a clear shot of Damocles, because I think the [[:Image:Genesis_Level8_11.jpg|concept art]] looked a lot better, but I'm not sure. If so, this is quite fixable. --'''Iritscen'''

Feast your eyes on the comparisons made here and tell me which looks better, the left or the right: [[Pre-beta_content#Syndicate_Mountain_Compound]]. Should we even be surprised at this point that the left is the pre-beta version? --'''Iritscen''' by way of '''geyser'''

;Mapping
Someone really ambitious could try to recreate the missing levels that were in the pre-beta, if only for testing at the time, because there's some interesting designs there: [[Pre-beta_content#Pre-beta_levels]]. --'''Iritscen'''

==New animations==
;Hi-yah!
Anyone want to try their hands at animations? New ones, not tweaked ones? How about giving Konoko some authentic martial arts moves? (Maybe more on this later.) --'''Iritscen'''

==New characters==
;Ideas from geyser
Oni characters have a modular design one can take advantage of, by "swapping bones" and authoring all-new textures. One can thus create entities more or less closely related to Oni's original ones, possibly with new storyline roles (Ninja Comguys, BGI executives, cyborg enforcers, WCG troops... you name it: it's almost easy - if you're creative). --'''geyser'''

==New/revised scenarios==
"Reshuffled or upgraded binaries are worthless without some genuinely inventive level logic." - geyser

;Taking advantage of savepoint slots
For one thing, Oni's levels allow for 10 savepoints each, which allows:
*either for more savepoints throughout a mission (possibly a lot harder)
*or savepoints that "revisit" a level (alternate missions and storylines)
*or non-mission savepoints like [[Oni Team Arena]] (and other such things) --'''geyser'''

;"Real" gun mod (new difficulty setting)
Oni may be more realistic about guns than many games, but it does give in to one long-standing tradition, which is that characters can take a ridiculous amount of bullets before dying. Even though TCTF members have armor they can wear, Konoko spends plenty of time out of her TCTF battle outfit and takes no more damage than when she's in it.

It would be interesting to amp up the damage gunfire does, and see what effect it has on the gameplay. Imagine actually having to take cover from enemy bullets instead of weaving in and out of them knowing that an occasional hit won't matter. It would also emphasize the importance of stealth over running headfirst into every battle. Let's say, instead of Konoko being able to take two SMG clips worth of bullets, it only takes 10-15 bullets (1/3 to 1/2 of a clip) to bring her down with this mod.

Admittedly, I'm also bringing the idea of armor into this, which I know we've talked about before. It would make more sense, with this mod in place, if Konoko's battle armor absorbed more damage than her jacket and blue jeans. (Of course, that might make one wonder why she doesn't wear the stuff more often... maybe it's better to leave armor out of this.) --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

P.S.: Another aspect of realism would be to greatly increase the distance at which gunfire can be heard. Right now, it's definitely too small of a radius to be realistic. And do bullets hitting walls attract the AI's attention? They don't seem to. Certainly if I heard a bullet hit the wall next to my head, I'd at least be on alert to see who was firing, even if I didn't immediately know their location. This modification would also balance out the added power in a gun with the fact that enemies are more likely to come find you when you use it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

::Easily doable. :) I've considered it before, though I already hate SMGs enough. -_- I'll make it into a package soon enough. (I've forbidden myself from making new packages for now...) [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 07:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

:::Well, let's see if someone else is interested in doing this as a learning exercise (since it is a pretty straight-forward hack, that is, the bullet modding would be, not the armor side of things). I'd prefer someone who doesn't already have a ton on their plate to take this on, and I know that between certain members getting more free time soon, and the eager newbies we have on the forum, there's someone we can ask to do this for us. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 12:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

:::Gumby, wasn't there an "ONCC dilemma" with [http://www.mods.oni2.net/system/files/material_depending_damage_beta4.zip that mod?]
::::Yes, we can only have one mod using ONCCs at a time. Until I code in ways for mods to deselect other mods, there isn't much to do about it. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 17:35, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Iritscen, I would take a look at the bomber. He's more active in matter of gunshots. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSYJqcsD_bo (starts at 0:42)] --[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 11:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

::::Interesting, Paradox. That's not a bad radius on the bomber. I did a little testing with the Thug, who was the character that started this little rant of mine, and although his radius for hearing gunfire is quite low, he does at least come find you if a bullet hits near him. So would we have to change an ONCC setting or change a setting for the weapon particle, to make the gun's sound radius larger? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 12:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

:::Methinks that the gun shot's sound radius (red line in vid) is okay as it is now except for the impact's sound radius (yellow line). Should be slightly increased. But in some cases AI seem to "ignore" both (paying quite low attention to it). So, I think the changes you need can be found in [[OBD:BINA/OBJC/CHAR#Less_basic_setup_-_Inventory.2C_team.2C_jobs.2C_alert.2Fpursuit|ONCC or CHAR (see pursuit modes)]] and might also interfere with part of the [[OBD:BINA/OBJC/CMBT#About_pursuit_distance|combat profile]]. Can't definite say, I hope you will find the answer. --[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 16:56, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

::::I'm having trouble finding any red line in that video. Maybe it's my colorblindness, dunno. At what time(s) does it appear? Anyway, looking at the video, I feel like, in real life, a gunshot's sound would definitely carry all the way across the tarmac. But it seems that if we increased the gun's sound radius as much as I'm thinking, it might be a problem because sounds carry through walls in Oni. So you would end up alerting enemies on other floors in a building and in other rooms. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::...sound does travel through walls in real life though. :S [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 05:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
::::::But walls dampen sound IRL. My thought was that, in-game, sounds would probably travel unfairly far through walls if we increased the radius. Now I'm not so sure, because it seems to be bigger than I thought, and yet we don't observe AIs running in from other floors to find us. Probably this is because (a) those characters are not spawned yet, or else (b) they hear you but can't see you, so they don't come find you. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
::::Second try. [http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/139715/sound_detection.avi Here's] the vid in full glory. Don't become irritated by the [http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn207/unknownfuture/Oni_Galore_Images/talk/sounds.jpg extra sound sphere]... Well, we haven't tested a bigger gun shot radius but I agree with you that the chances are high that it would lead to new problems. --[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 09:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::Thank you, I can see the line now, and the .jpg really helps explain things for me. I think I will withdraw my suggestion about increasing any sound radii. I would still like to see how the game plays with the change in firepower, though. It's not an urgent thing though, so let's just keep it in mind for someone to try in the future. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

==AI improvements==
;Patrol paths
It is also essential to set up innovative patrol paths (redeeming stealth). --'''geyser'''

;Ninja dodging
I don't know if [http://geyser.oni2.net/genesis/screenshots/_oni_07.jpg this] was a "manufactured" shot or not, but it's still awesome. Now, Loser has already gotten basic dodging working; what would it take to specifically get ninjas to either "ninja-slide" or jump as a form of dodging fire? Also, that jumping dude is ''really'' jumping. How would the game play out if the ninjas actually did have greater leaping ability than Konoko? It would make sense, wouldn't it? Especially if they're androids as ''some'' people like to think ;-) --'''Iritscen'''
:NOTE: Ninjas actually jump higher than Konoko if they use "jetpack timer" powered jump as well (hold spacebar). According to my observations (only empiric - nothing proven) there is probably bug in AI2 code. AI2 computes distance of far jump as if char used jetpacked jump, yet AI2 for some reason CANNOT do more than tap jump.
:Next, for AI2 "special" dodge - looks like AI2 is somewheat "vector" powered. And by than way, AI2 can only run/walk/creep. Acrobatics are MELEE only. If we had source....you know the rest.:--[[User:Loser|Loser]] 19:26, 13 November 2008 (CET) /NOTE

::So it looks like there's two things worth looking into (second one may be too hard, I realize, but this is all hypothetical):
::- Can we get AI2 to do more than a tap jump? (P.S.: Can ninjas actually jump as high as seen in that picture?) --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 20:10, 13 November 2008 (CET)
::- Are we sure that nothing short of engine patching would allow cool dodge moves? <strike>If the AI knows when it's being fired at, is there some way to add to the dodging routines links to the animations for side-rolls/slides and high jumps (for ninjas)?</strike> Actually, I thought a little more about what you said, and it seems that what I'm proposing here is impossible to do without actually altering code. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 20:10, 13 November 2008 (CET)
::''Ninjas ''do'' run/jump significantly faster/higher than Konoko, especially with the maximal body size factor. As for the jetpacking (an upwards acceleration), it's equivalent to lesser gravity, so just make the character-specific gravity factor smaller and you're done. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:00, 14 November 2008 (CET)''
:::Won't that mess up the speed at which the ninjas fall back down? [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::::Not much. Anyway, it is very straightforward to tweak the tap-jump parameters (initial velocity and "gravity" acceleration) so that the AI behaves consistently. Like for the dashing, it is not clear whether the implementation is bugged or incomplete, and there is a workaround, so a "real fix" is not very likely or urgent right now. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:07, 14 November 2008 (CET)
::Hypothetical features = ''real'' scope creep ^_^ As for flashy dodging, there's more to an implementation than "patching" the engine: in order to figure out just what needs to be rewritten and how, you need the source. Or rather Loser needs the source. Get the source, give it to Loser, and then Just Watch. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:07, 14 November 2008 (CET)

;Better Mutant Muro combat
This is basically just a summary of a chat I had with Loser about Mutant Muro and his current shortcomings. We felt that there are a few notable issues with the killed_griffen=true fight:
:1. Muro's generally quite easy to run circles around for the entire fight; the problem is that:
::A. He lacks few truly dangerous and hard-to-avoid moves; the forward-sliding move is good, and the lightning is kinda tricky to avoid, but nothing else is hard to deal with.
::B. Does being so big mean he has to be that slow? Muro goes from being dangerously agile and acrobatic to a giant that just [[wiktionary:plod#Verb|plods]] around.
::C. His limited moveset is very predictable. There's rarely a sense of "I wonder what he's about to do". This allows abuse of the AI, by running around in a small circle just ahead of him, letting him catch up to you, then cartwheeling away as he gets close enough to use a melee attack. If he uses the "oops I should really stop getting my hand stuck in the ground" attack, you run in and hit him a few times and then cartwheel away as he crouches, and you are outside the range of the lightning. Lather, rinse, repeat.
:2. Konoko's Daodan status is completely overlooked. Has she gone Imago? Is she at least close to Imago? If not, could she realistically defeat Imago Muro?

Loser and I agreed that Mutant Muro needs:
*more fast moves that are hard to dodge
*moves that deal way more damage so he's actually intimidating to fight, as he should be
*less predictability

Suggestions to meet these criteria include:
*another energy-based attack besides the push/pull lightning that is actually harmful (but dodgeable, of course)
*speeding up his walk
*giving him a bigger leap attack (does anyone ever get landed on by the current leap? not me)
*adding a new move such as a grab (perhaps stabbing his target with his hand) or a massive throw

You might say, "Now, hold on, we don't want to make an impossible fight here." But notice point #2 above; it's unclear to what extent Konoko is using, or needs to use, her Daodan abilities to beat Muro. What if we present the fight as being too difficult for her unless she uses hypoes to go into an overpower state? It can be hinted in the Pause Game screen earlier in the mission that she needs to save hypoes for this fight so the player has fair warning. And using a modded ONCC and/or some BSL, we could have her abilities increase dramatically while in overpower, so that she can fight Muro with better odds.

Well, what do y'all think? And feel free to correct me if I mis-stated your point of view, Loser. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

'''AI Laser Problems'''
One things that keeps bothering me is that the AI never trip the lasers. I am jumping through the lasers, shooting at them as they follow, get to the end and see them just recklessly sprinting through them. I am guessing that this falls under AI improvement. I also have no clue what would need to be changed for this to go into effect. Thanks, Otaku-kun
:Teaching the AI how to avoid lasers (see [[TRIG]]/[[TRGE]]) is of course a major issue of AI improvement, and one that is essentially hopeless - too much logic to implement from scratch (jumping, crouching, etc). Luckily, triggers are typically meant to activate turrets, which (typically) have no reason to fire at anyone except the player. So it looks natural enough for the AI to ignore the lasers. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:57, 4 October 2012 (CEST)
::Ok, having them avoid the lasers seems like a very hard task, but could we at least make either the turrets attack the AI too or to have the AI wait on the other side of the lasers until the player returns? Thanks, Otaku-kun

==Riddles for engine patchers==
;Dynamic holstering
:Combat situation and owner's weapon based. Customized for each weapon. That means:
:-new flags in [[CMBT]] file. It has "melee override" so far, used values are 0,1,2 (cancelled),3,4,5. New values should be counterparts of these ( long (6) medium (7), short(8) ), but causing AI to holster/unholster weapon rather than switching melee/weapon stance.
:-new flag in [[ONWC]] file. Currently there are some (appearently) unused flag bits which should be used for this.
::-Add new flag. Weapon with this flag causes AI which wields this weapon to unholster when focused enemy is knockdowned, even if it is in range where our AI should have weapon holstered according to [[CMBT]]. Holster again when focused enemy goes into any different animation than knockdowned, blownuped or lying (so AI holsters as enemy tries to getup). -- '''Loser'''
:::I don't understand some of what you propose above, it's very brief and technical; are you saying that you want AI to be able to shoot someone when they've been knocked down?
:::I may not understand what you wrote, but it made me wish, for the first time, that ''I'' could unholster a weapon while knocked down, and shoot the enemy before I got up. That would be an awesome combat technique. Characters already have a small arc of rotation when on the ground, for some reason, so what if they had a gun in their hands and could aim with a vertical arc from the ground to the ceiling, and with a limited horizontal arc similar to what they seem to have already? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 20:10, 13 November 2008 (CET)
::::Brilliant idea !!! Somebody should check whether it is possible. Sorry, I cannot...x_X
::::About that you don't understand: old wish of mine. Three wishes in fact.
:::*1) You see AI character. Unarmed. You run to fight it (no stealth killing). AI2 hears you when you are still quite far, turns, UNHOLSTERS ITS MERCURY BOW (or any other weapon) and....^_^.
:::*2) You see AI shooting at you with w3_phr. You dodge shots while approaching this enemy, but at certain distance, AI HOLSTERS ITS WEAPON (not holding it in hand) and fights with you. If you try to run away or somehow you cross requred distance, AI unholsters and fires again.
:::*3) You fight with AI from case 2). This AI manages to knockdown you. Now when you enter knockdown animation, AI automaticaly unholsters its weapon and fires at you. You get up as quickly as possible. The moment you start getting up, AI holsters and continues fighting you with MELEE. -- Loser
:::::Ah, I see, that is a good idea. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 20:45, 13 November 2008 (CET)

;Smart jumping
Add this as flag in ONCC. If set, this AI tries systematically (not MELEE randomly) to jump across gaps it can pass in order to reach its enemy. -- '''Loser'''

;Unsticking bug
Yes, I know that Neo never gets this one, but I do, and geyser, too. Type a cheat into the pause window, and the camera goes flying away as if you pressed "]" in dev mode. I believe it is caused by some sort of overflow in the cheat buffer. The buffer is not cleared when you close the window. For example: type "live", close the window, open it again, type "forever". I got it to bug up by typing random gibberish, too. Clearing the cheat buffer when you close the window might fix the problem. If someone (Neo?) who knows more about these sorts of things could comment, that would be great. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 21:10, 15 November 2008 (CET)
:A question and a fact:
:#Gumby, is there any reason why you are calling this effect "unsticiking"? There is no mention of "unsticking" in the engine apart from the '''unstick''' keypress event, which I think corresponds to Ctr+Alt/Shift+U (because it indeed "unsticks" a "stuck" character).
:#Once and for all, I'd like to stress that it is ''not'' true that "the camera goes flying away". What happens is that the ''character'' drifts away, the velocity being frozen. The character is not rendered during the drifting. If you jump, the camera fails to drift up.
:[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:14, 16 November 2008 (CET)
::Ok, then what should I call it? Bug-induced-derendering? [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 04:52, 16 November 2008 (CET)
:::The drifting caused by ] can be called "the ] bug/feature". As for the thing you're trying to fix, when and if you're sure the problem is with the cheat buffer, then I'd call it the "cheat buffer bug", intuitively enough. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 05:23, 16 November 2008 (CET)

;Transforming Muro
Am I the only one who thinks it's a bit weak that Muro transforms into his Imago state off-screen? The camera cuts away, and then back, and bam! he's mutated. But of course the reason is that the engine doesn't support morphing geometry in models, we all know that. Now, my question is, Shouldn't it be possible to cycle through transitional models rapidly to give the illusion of a morphing model? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 01:59, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
:Well, would rather not. Spamming up level19 with ONCCs is a bit unneccessary... [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 14:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
::It would totally be worth it if we had the ability to produce a cool transformation, imo. A little annoyance when switching characters vs. a majorly cool upgrade to the final fight. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
:::There are better ways to go about this, methinks. Like adjusting his body size through scripting. I'd be ok with a halfways-transformed ONCC, if someone wants to model it, though. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 07:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

;Annoying bouncing shells
I think this was discussed a while back, but isn't there a way to stop bullet casings from bouncing perpetually? And was this the result of a mod we made, or did they always do that? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
::Was an AE mod to incrase the time bullet shells stick around. We have two options:
* Scrap it completely
* Fix the bouncing. (I think I can...) :)
::Your thoughts? [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 07:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
:::I'll wait for Loser to respond to this, I know he has something to say on the matter. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 12:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

==Miscellaneous tweaks==
;All click-clacks are equal
A more general problem is that the Medium and Heavy variants don't sound softer than Konoko's footsteps, as if all the footwear had very hard soles, not rubber or plastic. The only way to fix this is to add some [[Impt]], extend the [[ONIE]], adapt [[ONCC]], and tweak/(re)author [[OSBD]] and/or [[SNDD]]. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:13, 14 November 2008 (CET)
:To me, the problem is that characters like Barabus and Mutant Muro have the same footsteps as a Comguy or light Striker, when they should have plodding, heavy footsteps. In fact, the male footstep sounds softer to me than the female footstep, which has a noticeable high-heelish aspect to it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:31, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

;Smart alarm behaviour
Loser wanted to make the AI attack you even when trying to get to an alert console. I don't think he made any changes in that regard yet, but I was chasing down a ninja Comguy who wanted to push the alert button, and when I got in his way, he *did* attack me. I think that further increasing the likeliness of the AI to attack you while in run-for-alert-console mode is not necessary, and maybe even a bad idea, since they can now dash as fast as Konoko, and so it's much more exciting/frightening when they run for the console. Staying and fighting would make them less of a threat, really, since after pressing the button they will fight you anyway and then you will also have other problems to deal with too. So I vote for "no change" in this regard. --'''Iritscen

:"This is a mistake". The point of Loser's aproach is that AI will interrupt their console-running job only when the player is about to take advantage of them (e.g., tackle them - Konoko still dashes faster than anyone except for Ninjas - or backbreak them at the console). They will then resume running as soon as they've put some distance between them and the player (e.g., by knocking the player down and/or retreating). This should much more consistent than the way it happens with the original AI: if you force a console-running AI to fight back, they typically won't resume the alarm-running job when they have the chance. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 05:22, 22 September 2008 (CEST)

::I dislike the current console behavior. You can just backbreak them as they use the console. Not sure what the best fix is though. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 06:12, 22 September 2008 (CEST)

;Breakable glass tweak
I don't know whether it would be too much for engine or not. Due to the fact we can import level geometry (incomplete so far, I know, but still...) what about modifying breakable windows, giving them more [[AGQG|GQ]]s.
:Point is that then big glass panel would not be fully shattered because one small bullet from w1_tap hit it in the corner (only corner is shattered), while bigger blasts (w3_phr, w5_sbg) would destroy larger area of glass panel or whole panel.
I can see one bug tough - shooting edges of such a glass panel will make it "float" in the thin air. --[[User:Loser|Loser]] 13:25, 15 November 2008 (CET)
::Heh, that bug alone is a good reason ''not'' to do it in the way you suggest. Also, if "only the corner is shattered", surely, the shattered section won't be rectangular? The only thing that will look good is a dense [[wikipedia:curtain wall|curtain wall]]: little glass panels and criss-crossed beams between them; but then you'll complain about grenades and such not damaging the (thin) framework ^_^. There is an alternative approach - to somehow make some projectiles go through glass without breaking it (basically creating a decal and moving on). I'd say that's definitely possible. But - scope-creepy ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:14, 16 November 2008 (CET)
:::Just a reminder that this page isn't about what should be in the Edition; that page is [[AE:Bug-fix and feature requests|here]]. This page is for items that may or may not be in scope for the AE, but even if they aren't, could still be done separately from the AE. In other words, people can suggest anything and everything here.
:::In response to this idea, I am actually happy with the glass as it currently breaks; it's fun to watch a whole pane collapse at once, although I don't know how realistic it is. The one thing I find odd in the area of weapons vs. ordinary windows is that the SBG's shots either explode when they hit glass, or bounce off it, if you hold the 2nd trigger. I'd like to see them break the glass and keep on going. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 00:32, 16 November 2008 (CET)

;The Xiox-button pusher
For some reason, the guy who seems to be a scientist, who reports on Konoko's increasing Daodan surges, is dressed in a TCTF cop uniform. He should be a scientist in a coat like the woman in the same scene who reports on the power of the Xiox-destruct mechanism. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:24, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

;Touching up the Shinatama farewell scene
I've never been very impressed by the place that Konoko finds Shinatama in the APC. Mainly it's the fact that Shinatama is just sitting there, and there's some really thick, ugly square-edged cables nearby. If we could make those wires look more realistic, and maybe show that Shinatama is still hooked up to them, and maybe also that she is restrained, it would help flesh out the setting a bit more. Otherwise it's kinda silly how Konoko wants to get her out of there but just stands there until Shinatama receives the self-destruct order. Also, Shinatama really needs to show some damage, not just sit there slumped and say she's been hurt. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:24, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
[[Category:Modding ideas]]

Modding brainstorms

2012-10-04T08:11:46Z

Otaku-kun: /* AI improvements */

{{Brainstorm}}
Put any ideas for modding here. Some of these might be useful for the Edition, others might become standalone mods. If you think something is definitely prime material for the Edition (beware "scope creep", suggestions that make the Edition cover more ground than it already does), then it can go on the [[AE:Bug-fix and feature requests]] page for review. If your idea gives an answer to a criticism posed on the [[AE:Food for thought]] page, then you might want to post it there instead.

==Upgraded content==
;Textures
High-resolution textures are highly welcome. --'''geyser'''

The environment could do with less dull colors, and the character textures have far too much compression/dithering. --'''geyser'''

Another challenge is to add reflectivity channels to all the "metallic" parts (characters, objects, environment). --'''geyser'''
;Precipitation
What can we do with precipitation? The only precip. we see in the game is snow in the last level. What a tease! Can/should we add snow to other levels, or can we add new kinds of precip. like rain/sleet? --'''Iritscen'''
:Isn't there rain in Rooftops? [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::Er, hmm, I guess so! Strange that I forgot that. Maybe it wasn't raining hard enough :-D Well, I still want to see more precip. Snow in particular has some nice possibilities, aesthetically. I guess I just need to know how it is produced from the binary data. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 02:12, 14 November 2008 (CET)
:::Precipitation is set up in [[PART]]. I think what you really want is for the rain drops (or hail stones) to deal damage. Heavier rain/snow is possible, but it could mean a lot of stress for the engine, depending on how much is "enough". Another problem with heavy rain and snow would be the lack of realism on the ground: ripples in puddles or footprints in snow would have to be implemented with character-emitted particles, puddles themselves would have to be set up from scratch... Sounds like a lot of work. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:03, 14 November 2008 (CET)
::::Damaging precipitation is easy enough. Heavy rain is too much work, methinks, but snow could be done, maybe. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
:::::Just for the record, I never wanted damaging precip, that was geyser thinking weird things. Anyway, it was silly of me to forget that Rooftops has rain. So that makes two levels with precip, eh? That's not so bad as just one level with precip. I suppose that satisfies me... for now. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 02:53, 6 December 2008 (CET)

==Retrograded content==
It's hard not to notice that some stuff looked better pre-beta. Let's make a list and see if we can turn back time to give Oni back some of the pretty stuff it used to have. Look at the "Pre-beta content" page's screenshots for ideas, there's a heckuvalot of thing to remark upon there.

;Models & textures
Muro's face was a lot nicer back when they made the 1999 trailer. --'''geyser'''

One can also see animated terminal screens in the trailer. That's currently very doable if you ask me. --'''Iritscen'''

;Lighting
Barely visible in [http://geyser.oni2.net/genesis/screenshots/manplant/ot2_manplant1.jpg this] shot from the trailer is a totally different wall down in the lobby. The lights actually appear to cast light on the wall (not dynamic, I don't think, but s clever imitation of it), as opposed to now, and generally the whole area is just 100 times better-looking than it is now (maybe I will get a comparison shot up here at some point). Can this be done with vertex lighting or some other means that doesn't involve re-writing the engine? --'''Iritscen'''

[[:Image:Genesis_Level3_7.jpg|This]] is a beautiful shot of the early Lab. It shows just how good baked lighting can look. Now, I'm not saying we try to make the Lab look this way, because obviously the Lab is now seen in the daytime, not at night, but it shows what should be possible, particularly at night. --'''Iritscen'''

;Weapons
Some people have noticed that there are some different weapons in some early art and/or screenshots. Want to bring those up here? --'''Iritscen'''

One thing I can definitely see was different is the gun used [[:Image:Genesis_Level8_5.jpg|here]]; it's also got a laser sight! --'''Iritscen'''

;General
TCTF HQ looked [[:Image:Genesis_Level8_9.jpg|crazy better]] at one time; look at those sweet railings! --'''Iritscen''' by way of '''geyser'''

I'd like to see a clear shot of Damocles, because I think the [[:Image:Genesis_Level8_11.jpg|concept art]] looked a lot better, but I'm not sure. If so, this is quite fixable. --'''Iritscen'''

Feast your eyes on the comparisons made here and tell me which looks better, the left or the right: [[Pre-beta_content#Syndicate_Mountain_Compound]]. Should we even be surprised at this point that the left is the pre-beta version? --'''Iritscen''' by way of '''geyser'''

;Mapping
Someone really ambitious could try to recreate the missing levels that were in the pre-beta, if only for testing at the time, because there's some interesting designs there: [[Pre-beta_content#Pre-beta_levels]]. --'''Iritscen'''

==New animations==
;Hi-yah!
Anyone want to try their hands at animations? New ones, not tweaked ones? How about giving Konoko some authentic martial arts moves? (Maybe more on this later.) --'''Iritscen'''

==New characters==
;Ideas from geyser
Oni characters have a modular design one can take advantage of, by "swapping bones" and authoring all-new textures. One can thus create entities more or less closely related to Oni's original ones, possibly with new storyline roles (Ninja Comguys, BGI executives, cyborg enforcers, WCG troops... you name it: it's almost easy - if you're creative). --'''geyser'''

==New/revised scenarios==
"Reshuffled or upgraded binaries are worthless without some genuinely inventive level logic." - geyser

;Taking advantage of savepoint slots
For one thing, Oni's levels allow for 10 savepoints each, which allows:
*either for more savepoints throughout a mission (possibly a lot harder)
*or savepoints that "revisit" a level (alternate missions and storylines)
*or non-mission savepoints like [[Oni Team Arena]] (and other such things) --'''geyser'''

;"Real" gun mod (new difficulty setting)
Oni may be more realistic about guns than many games, but it does give in to one long-standing tradition, which is that characters can take a ridiculous amount of bullets before dying. Even though TCTF members have armor they can wear, Konoko spends plenty of time out of her TCTF battle outfit and takes no more damage than when she's in it.

It would be interesting to amp up the damage gunfire does, and see what effect it has on the gameplay. Imagine actually having to take cover from enemy bullets instead of weaving in and out of them knowing that an occasional hit won't matter. It would also emphasize the importance of stealth over running headfirst into every battle. Let's say, instead of Konoko being able to take two SMG clips worth of bullets, it only takes 10-15 bullets (1/3 to 1/2 of a clip) to bring her down with this mod.

Admittedly, I'm also bringing the idea of armor into this, which I know we've talked about before. It would make more sense, with this mod in place, if Konoko's battle armor absorbed more damage than her jacket and blue jeans. (Of course, that might make one wonder why she doesn't wear the stuff more often... maybe it's better to leave armor out of this.) --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

P.S.: Another aspect of realism would be to greatly increase the distance at which gunfire can be heard. Right now, it's definitely too small of a radius to be realistic. And do bullets hitting walls attract the AI's attention? They don't seem to. Certainly if I heard a bullet hit the wall next to my head, I'd at least be on alert to see who was firing, even if I didn't immediately know their location. This modification would also balance out the added power in a gun with the fact that enemies are more likely to come find you when you use it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

::Easily doable. :) I've considered it before, though I already hate SMGs enough. -_- I'll make it into a package soon enough. (I've forbidden myself from making new packages for now...) [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 07:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

:::Well, let's see if someone else is interested in doing this as a learning exercise (since it is a pretty straight-forward hack, that is, the bullet modding would be, not the armor side of things). I'd prefer someone who doesn't already have a ton on their plate to take this on, and I know that between certain members getting more free time soon, and the eager newbies we have on the forum, there's someone we can ask to do this for us. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 12:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

:::Gumby, wasn't there an "ONCC dilemma" with [http://www.mods.oni2.net/system/files/material_depending_damage_beta4.zip that mod?]
::::Yes, we can only have one mod using ONCCs at a time. Until I code in ways for mods to deselect other mods, there isn't much to do about it. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 17:35, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Iritscen, I would take a look at the bomber. He's more active in matter of gunshots. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSYJqcsD_bo (starts at 0:42)] --[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 11:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

::::Interesting, Paradox. That's not a bad radius on the bomber. I did a little testing with the Thug, who was the character that started this little rant of mine, and although his radius for hearing gunfire is quite low, he does at least come find you if a bullet hits near him. So would we have to change an ONCC setting or change a setting for the weapon particle, to make the gun's sound radius larger? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 12:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

:::Methinks that the gun shot's sound radius (red line in vid) is okay as it is now except for the impact's sound radius (yellow line). Should be slightly increased. But in some cases AI seem to "ignore" both (paying quite low attention to it). So, I think the changes you need can be found in [[OBD:BINA/OBJC/CHAR#Less_basic_setup_-_Inventory.2C_team.2C_jobs.2C_alert.2Fpursuit|ONCC or CHAR (see pursuit modes)]] and might also interfere with part of the [[OBD:BINA/OBJC/CMBT#About_pursuit_distance|combat profile]]. Can't definite say, I hope you will find the answer. --[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 16:56, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

::::I'm having trouble finding any red line in that video. Maybe it's my colorblindness, dunno. At what time(s) does it appear? Anyway, looking at the video, I feel like, in real life, a gunshot's sound would definitely carry all the way across the tarmac. But it seems that if we increased the gun's sound radius as much as I'm thinking, it might be a problem because sounds carry through walls in Oni. So you would end up alerting enemies on other floors in a building and in other rooms. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::...sound does travel through walls in real life though. :S [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 05:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
::::::But walls dampen sound IRL. My thought was that, in-game, sounds would probably travel unfairly far through walls if we increased the radius. Now I'm not so sure, because it seems to be bigger than I thought, and yet we don't observe AIs running in from other floors to find us. Probably this is because (a) those characters are not spawned yet, or else (b) they hear you but can't see you, so they don't come find you. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
::::Second try. [http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/139715/sound_detection.avi Here's] the vid in full glory. Don't become irritated by the [http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn207/unknownfuture/Oni_Galore_Images/talk/sounds.jpg extra sound sphere]... Well, we haven't tested a bigger gun shot radius but I agree with you that the chances are high that it would lead to new problems. --[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 09:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::Thank you, I can see the line now, and the .jpg really helps explain things for me. I think I will withdraw my suggestion about increasing any sound radii. I would still like to see how the game plays with the change in firepower, though. It's not an urgent thing though, so let's just keep it in mind for someone to try in the future. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

==AI improvements==
;Patrol paths
It is also essential to set up innovative patrol paths (redeeming stealth). --'''geyser'''

;Ninja dodging
I don't know if [http://geyser.oni2.net/genesis/screenshots/_oni_07.jpg this] was a "manufactured" shot or not, but it's still awesome. Now, Loser has already gotten basic dodging working; what would it take to specifically get ninjas to either "ninja-slide" or jump as a form of dodging fire? Also, that jumping dude is ''really'' jumping. How would the game play out if the ninjas actually did have greater leaping ability than Konoko? It would make sense, wouldn't it? Especially if they're androids as ''some'' people like to think ;-) --'''Iritscen'''
:NOTE: Ninjas actually jump higher than Konoko if they use "jetpack timer" powered jump as well (hold spacebar). According to my observations (only empiric - nothing proven) there is probably bug in AI2 code. AI2 computes distance of far jump as if char used jetpacked jump, yet AI2 for some reason CANNOT do more than tap jump.
:Next, for AI2 "special" dodge - looks like AI2 is somewheat "vector" powered. And by than way, AI2 can only run/walk/creep. Acrobatics are MELEE only. If we had source....you know the rest.:--[[User:Loser|Loser]] 19:26, 13 November 2008 (CET) /NOTE

::So it looks like there's two things worth looking into (second one may be too hard, I realize, but this is all hypothetical):
::- Can we get AI2 to do more than a tap jump? (P.S.: Can ninjas actually jump as high as seen in that picture?) --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 20:10, 13 November 2008 (CET)
::- Are we sure that nothing short of engine patching would allow cool dodge moves? <strike>If the AI knows when it's being fired at, is there some way to add to the dodging routines links to the animations for side-rolls/slides and high jumps (for ninjas)?</strike> Actually, I thought a little more about what you said, and it seems that what I'm proposing here is impossible to do without actually altering code. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 20:10, 13 November 2008 (CET)
::''Ninjas ''do'' run/jump significantly faster/higher than Konoko, especially with the maximal body size factor. As for the jetpacking (an upwards acceleration), it's equivalent to lesser gravity, so just make the character-specific gravity factor smaller and you're done. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:00, 14 November 2008 (CET)''
:::Won't that mess up the speed at which the ninjas fall back down? [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::::Not much. Anyway, it is very straightforward to tweak the tap-jump parameters (initial velocity and "gravity" acceleration) so that the AI behaves consistently. Like for the dashing, it is not clear whether the implementation is bugged or incomplete, and there is a workaround, so a "real fix" is not very likely or urgent right now. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:07, 14 November 2008 (CET)
::Hypothetical features = ''real'' scope creep ^_^ As for flashy dodging, there's more to an implementation than "patching" the engine: in order to figure out just what needs to be rewritten and how, you need the source. Or rather Loser needs the source. Get the source, give it to Loser, and then Just Watch. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:07, 14 November 2008 (CET)

;Better Mutant Muro combat
This is basically just a summary of a chat I had with Loser about Mutant Muro and his current shortcomings. We felt that there are a few notable issues with the killed_griffen=true fight:
:1. Muro's generally quite easy to run circles around for the entire fight; the problem is that:
::A. He lacks few truly dangerous and hard-to-avoid moves; the forward-sliding move is good, and the lightning is kinda tricky to avoid, but nothing else is hard to deal with.
::B. Does being so big mean he has to be that slow? Muro goes from being dangerously agile and acrobatic to a giant that just [[wiktionary:plod#Verb|plods]] around.
::C. His limited moveset is very predictable. There's rarely a sense of "I wonder what he's about to do". This allows abuse of the AI, by running around in a small circle just ahead of him, letting him catch up to you, then cartwheeling away as he gets close enough to use a melee attack. If he uses the "oops I should really stop getting my hand stuck in the ground" attack, you run in and hit him a few times and then cartwheel away as he crouches, and you are outside the range of the lightning. Lather, rinse, repeat.
:2. Konoko's Daodan status is completely overlooked. Has she gone Imago? Is she at least close to Imago? If not, could she realistically defeat Imago Muro?

Loser and I agreed that Mutant Muro needs:
*more fast moves that are hard to dodge
*moves that deal way more damage so he's actually intimidating to fight, as he should be
*less predictability

Suggestions to meet these criteria include:
*another energy-based attack besides the push/pull lightning that is actually harmful (but dodgeable, of course)
*speeding up his walk
*giving him a bigger leap attack (does anyone ever get landed on by the current leap? not me)
*adding a new move such as a grab (perhaps stabbing his target with his hand) or a massive throw

You might say, "Now, hold on, we don't want to make an impossible fight here." But notice point #2 above; it's unclear to what extent Konoko is using, or needs to use, her Daodan abilities to beat Muro. What if we present the fight as being too difficult for her unless she uses hypoes to go into an overpower state? It can be hinted in the Pause Game screen earlier in the mission that she needs to save hypoes for this fight so the player has fair warning. And using a modded ONCC and/or some BSL, we could have her abilities increase dramatically while in overpower, so that she can fight Muro with better odds.

Well, what do y'all think? And feel free to correct me if I mis-stated your point of view, Loser. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

'''AI Laser Problems'''
One things that keeps bothering me is that the AI never trip the lasers. I am jumping through the lasers, shooting at them as they follow, get to the end and see them just recklessly sprinting through them. I am guessing that this falls under AI improvement. I also have no clue what would need to be changed for this to go into effect. Thanks, Otaku-kun

==Riddles for engine patchers==
;Dynamic holstering
:Combat situation and owner's weapon based. Customized for each weapon. That means:
:-new flags in [[CMBT]] file. It has "melee override" so far, used values are 0,1,2 (cancelled),3,4,5. New values should be counterparts of these ( long (6) medium (7), short(8) ), but causing AI to holster/unholster weapon rather than switching melee/weapon stance.
:-new flag in [[ONWC]] file. Currently there are some (appearently) unused flag bits which should be used for this.
::-Add new flag. Weapon with this flag causes AI which wields this weapon to unholster when focused enemy is knockdowned, even if it is in range where our AI should have weapon holstered according to [[CMBT]]. Holster again when focused enemy goes into any different animation than knockdowned, blownuped or lying (so AI holsters as enemy tries to getup). -- '''Loser'''
:::I don't understand some of what you propose above, it's very brief and technical; are you saying that you want AI to be able to shoot someone when they've been knocked down?
:::I may not understand what you wrote, but it made me wish, for the first time, that ''I'' could unholster a weapon while knocked down, and shoot the enemy before I got up. That would be an awesome combat technique. Characters already have a small arc of rotation when on the ground, for some reason, so what if they had a gun in their hands and could aim with a vertical arc from the ground to the ceiling, and with a limited horizontal arc similar to what they seem to have already? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 20:10, 13 November 2008 (CET)
::::Brilliant idea !!! Somebody should check whether it is possible. Sorry, I cannot...x_X
::::About that you don't understand: old wish of mine. Three wishes in fact.
:::*1) You see AI character. Unarmed. You run to fight it (no stealth killing). AI2 hears you when you are still quite far, turns, UNHOLSTERS ITS MERCURY BOW (or any other weapon) and....^_^.
:::*2) You see AI shooting at you with w3_phr. You dodge shots while approaching this enemy, but at certain distance, AI HOLSTERS ITS WEAPON (not holding it in hand) and fights with you. If you try to run away or somehow you cross requred distance, AI unholsters and fires again.
:::*3) You fight with AI from case 2). This AI manages to knockdown you. Now when you enter knockdown animation, AI automaticaly unholsters its weapon and fires at you. You get up as quickly as possible. The moment you start getting up, AI holsters and continues fighting you with MELEE. -- Loser
:::::Ah, I see, that is a good idea. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 20:45, 13 November 2008 (CET)

;Smart jumping
Add this as flag in ONCC. If set, this AI tries systematically (not MELEE randomly) to jump across gaps it can pass in order to reach its enemy. -- '''Loser'''

;Unsticking bug
Yes, I know that Neo never gets this one, but I do, and geyser, too. Type a cheat into the pause window, and the camera goes flying away as if you pressed "]" in dev mode. I believe it is caused by some sort of overflow in the cheat buffer. The buffer is not cleared when you close the window. For example: type "live", close the window, open it again, type "forever". I got it to bug up by typing random gibberish, too. Clearing the cheat buffer when you close the window might fix the problem. If someone (Neo?) who knows more about these sorts of things could comment, that would be great. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 21:10, 15 November 2008 (CET)
:A question and a fact:
:#Gumby, is there any reason why you are calling this effect "unsticiking"? There is no mention of "unsticking" in the engine apart from the '''unstick''' keypress event, which I think corresponds to Ctr+Alt/Shift+U (because it indeed "unsticks" a "stuck" character).
:#Once and for all, I'd like to stress that it is ''not'' true that "the camera goes flying away". What happens is that the ''character'' drifts away, the velocity being frozen. The character is not rendered during the drifting. If you jump, the camera fails to drift up.
:[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:14, 16 November 2008 (CET)
::Ok, then what should I call it? Bug-induced-derendering? [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 04:52, 16 November 2008 (CET)
:::The drifting caused by ] can be called "the ] bug/feature". As for the thing you're trying to fix, when and if you're sure the problem is with the cheat buffer, then I'd call it the "cheat buffer bug", intuitively enough. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 05:23, 16 November 2008 (CET)

;Transforming Muro
Am I the only one who thinks it's a bit weak that Muro transforms into his Imago state off-screen? The camera cuts away, and then back, and bam! he's mutated. But of course the reason is that the engine doesn't support morphing geometry in models, we all know that. Now, my question is, Shouldn't it be possible to cycle through transitional models rapidly to give the illusion of a morphing model? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 01:59, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
:Well, would rather not. Spamming up level19 with ONCCs is a bit unneccessary... [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 14:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
::It would totally be worth it if we had the ability to produce a cool transformation, imo. A little annoyance when switching characters vs. a majorly cool upgrade to the final fight. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
:::There are better ways to go about this, methinks. Like adjusting his body size through scripting. I'd be ok with a halfways-transformed ONCC, if someone wants to model it, though. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 07:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

;Annoying bouncing shells
I think this was discussed a while back, but isn't there a way to stop bullet casings from bouncing perpetually? And was this the result of a mod we made, or did they always do that? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
::Was an AE mod to incrase the time bullet shells stick around. We have two options:
* Scrap it completely
* Fix the bouncing. (I think I can...) :)
::Your thoughts? [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 07:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
:::I'll wait for Loser to respond to this, I know he has something to say on the matter. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 12:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

==Miscellaneous tweaks==
;All click-clacks are equal
A more general problem is that the Medium and Heavy variants don't sound softer than Konoko's footsteps, as if all the footwear had very hard soles, not rubber or plastic. The only way to fix this is to add some [[Impt]], extend the [[ONIE]], adapt [[ONCC]], and tweak/(re)author [[OSBD]] and/or [[SNDD]]. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:13, 14 November 2008 (CET)
:To me, the problem is that characters like Barabus and Mutant Muro have the same footsteps as a Comguy or light Striker, when they should have plodding, heavy footsteps. In fact, the male footstep sounds softer to me than the female footstep, which has a noticeable high-heelish aspect to it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:31, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

;Smart alarm behaviour
Loser wanted to make the AI attack you even when trying to get to an alert console. I don't think he made any changes in that regard yet, but I was chasing down a ninja Comguy who wanted to push the alert button, and when I got in his way, he *did* attack me. I think that further increasing the likeliness of the AI to attack you while in run-for-alert-console mode is not necessary, and maybe even a bad idea, since they can now dash as fast as Konoko, and so it's much more exciting/frightening when they run for the console. Staying and fighting would make them less of a threat, really, since after pressing the button they will fight you anyway and then you will also have other problems to deal with too. So I vote for "no change" in this regard. --'''Iritscen

:"This is a mistake". The point of Loser's aproach is that AI will interrupt their console-running job only when the player is about to take advantage of them (e.g., tackle them - Konoko still dashes faster than anyone except for Ninjas - or backbreak them at the console). They will then resume running as soon as they've put some distance between them and the player (e.g., by knocking the player down and/or retreating). This should much more consistent than the way it happens with the original AI: if you force a console-running AI to fight back, they typically won't resume the alarm-running job when they have the chance. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 05:22, 22 September 2008 (CEST)

::I dislike the current console behavior. You can just backbreak them as they use the console. Not sure what the best fix is though. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 06:12, 22 September 2008 (CEST)

;Breakable glass tweak
I don't know whether it would be too much for engine or not. Due to the fact we can import level geometry (incomplete so far, I know, but still...) what about modifying breakable windows, giving them more [[AGQG|GQ]]s.
:Point is that then big glass panel would not be fully shattered because one small bullet from w1_tap hit it in the corner (only corner is shattered), while bigger blasts (w3_phr, w5_sbg) would destroy larger area of glass panel or whole panel.
I can see one bug tough - shooting edges of such a glass panel will make it "float" in the thin air. --[[User:Loser|Loser]] 13:25, 15 November 2008 (CET)
::Heh, that bug alone is a good reason ''not'' to do it in the way you suggest. Also, if "only the corner is shattered", surely, the shattered section won't be rectangular? The only thing that will look good is a dense [[wikipedia:curtain wall|curtain wall]]: little glass panels and criss-crossed beams between them; but then you'll complain about grenades and such not damaging the (thin) framework ^_^. There is an alternative approach - to somehow make some projectiles go through glass without breaking it (basically creating a decal and moving on). I'd say that's definitely possible. But - scope-creepy ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:14, 16 November 2008 (CET)
:::Just a reminder that this page isn't about what should be in the Edition; that page is [[AE:Bug-fix and feature requests|here]]. This page is for items that may or may not be in scope for the AE, but even if they aren't, could still be done separately from the AE. In other words, people can suggest anything and everything here.
:::In response to this idea, I am actually happy with the glass as it currently breaks; it's fun to watch a whole pane collapse at once, although I don't know how realistic it is. The one thing I find odd in the area of weapons vs. ordinary windows is that the SBG's shots either explode when they hit glass, or bounce off it, if you hold the 2nd trigger. I'd like to see them break the glass and keep on going. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 00:32, 16 November 2008 (CET)

;The Xiox-button pusher
For some reason, the guy who seems to be a scientist, who reports on Konoko's increasing Daodan surges, is dressed in a TCTF cop uniform. He should be a scientist in a coat like the woman in the same scene who reports on the power of the Xiox-destruct mechanism. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:24, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

;Touching up the Shinatama farewell scene
I've never been very impressed by the place that Konoko finds Shinatama in the APC. Mainly it's the fact that Shinatama is just sitting there, and there's some really thick, ugly square-edged cables nearby. If we could make those wires look more realistic, and maybe show that Shinatama is still hooked up to them, and maybe also that she is restrained, it would help flesh out the setting a bit more. Otherwise it's kinda silly how Konoko wants to get her out of there but just stands there until Shinatama receives the self-destruct order. Also, Shinatama really needs to show some damage, not just sit there slumped and say she's been hurt. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:24, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
[[Category:Modding ideas]]

Modding brainstorms

2012-10-04T08:10:49Z

Otaku-kun: /* AI improvements */

{{Brainstorm}}
Put any ideas for modding here. Some of these might be useful for the Edition, others might become standalone mods. If you think something is definitely prime material for the Edition (beware "scope creep", suggestions that make the Edition cover more ground than it already does), then it can go on the [[AE:Bug-fix and feature requests]] page for review. If your idea gives an answer to a criticism posed on the [[AE:Food for thought]] page, then you might want to post it there instead.

==Upgraded content==
;Textures
High-resolution textures are highly welcome. --'''geyser'''

The environment could do with less dull colors, and the character textures have far too much compression/dithering. --'''geyser'''

Another challenge is to add reflectivity channels to all the "metallic" parts (characters, objects, environment). --'''geyser'''
;Precipitation
What can we do with precipitation? The only precip. we see in the game is snow in the last level. What a tease! Can/should we add snow to other levels, or can we add new kinds of precip. like rain/sleet? --'''Iritscen'''
:Isn't there rain in Rooftops? [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::Er, hmm, I guess so! Strange that I forgot that. Maybe it wasn't raining hard enough :-D Well, I still want to see more precip. Snow in particular has some nice possibilities, aesthetically. I guess I just need to know how it is produced from the binary data. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 02:12, 14 November 2008 (CET)
:::Precipitation is set up in [[PART]]. I think what you really want is for the rain drops (or hail stones) to deal damage. Heavier rain/snow is possible, but it could mean a lot of stress for the engine, depending on how much is "enough". Another problem with heavy rain and snow would be the lack of realism on the ground: ripples in puddles or footprints in snow would have to be implemented with character-emitted particles, puddles themselves would have to be set up from scratch... Sounds like a lot of work. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:03, 14 November 2008 (CET)
::::Damaging precipitation is easy enough. Heavy rain is too much work, methinks, but snow could be done, maybe. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
:::::Just for the record, I never wanted damaging precip, that was geyser thinking weird things. Anyway, it was silly of me to forget that Rooftops has rain. So that makes two levels with precip, eh? That's not so bad as just one level with precip. I suppose that satisfies me... for now. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 02:53, 6 December 2008 (CET)

==Retrograded content==
It's hard not to notice that some stuff looked better pre-beta. Let's make a list and see if we can turn back time to give Oni back some of the pretty stuff it used to have. Look at the "Pre-beta content" page's screenshots for ideas, there's a heckuvalot of thing to remark upon there.

;Models & textures
Muro's face was a lot nicer back when they made the 1999 trailer. --'''geyser'''

One can also see animated terminal screens in the trailer. That's currently very doable if you ask me. --'''Iritscen'''

;Lighting
Barely visible in [http://geyser.oni2.net/genesis/screenshots/manplant/ot2_manplant1.jpg this] shot from the trailer is a totally different wall down in the lobby. The lights actually appear to cast light on the wall (not dynamic, I don't think, but s clever imitation of it), as opposed to now, and generally the whole area is just 100 times better-looking than it is now (maybe I will get a comparison shot up here at some point). Can this be done with vertex lighting or some other means that doesn't involve re-writing the engine? --'''Iritscen'''

[[:Image:Genesis_Level3_7.jpg|This]] is a beautiful shot of the early Lab. It shows just how good baked lighting can look. Now, I'm not saying we try to make the Lab look this way, because obviously the Lab is now seen in the daytime, not at night, but it shows what should be possible, particularly at night. --'''Iritscen'''

;Weapons
Some people have noticed that there are some different weapons in some early art and/or screenshots. Want to bring those up here? --'''Iritscen'''

One thing I can definitely see was different is the gun used [[:Image:Genesis_Level8_5.jpg|here]]; it's also got a laser sight! --'''Iritscen'''

;General
TCTF HQ looked [[:Image:Genesis_Level8_9.jpg|crazy better]] at one time; look at those sweet railings! --'''Iritscen''' by way of '''geyser'''

I'd like to see a clear shot of Damocles, because I think the [[:Image:Genesis_Level8_11.jpg|concept art]] looked a lot better, but I'm not sure. If so, this is quite fixable. --'''Iritscen'''

Feast your eyes on the comparisons made here and tell me which looks better, the left or the right: [[Pre-beta_content#Syndicate_Mountain_Compound]]. Should we even be surprised at this point that the left is the pre-beta version? --'''Iritscen''' by way of '''geyser'''

;Mapping
Someone really ambitious could try to recreate the missing levels that were in the pre-beta, if only for testing at the time, because there's some interesting designs there: [[Pre-beta_content#Pre-beta_levels]]. --'''Iritscen'''

==New animations==
;Hi-yah!
Anyone want to try their hands at animations? New ones, not tweaked ones? How about giving Konoko some authentic martial arts moves? (Maybe more on this later.) --'''Iritscen'''

==New characters==
;Ideas from geyser
Oni characters have a modular design one can take advantage of, by "swapping bones" and authoring all-new textures. One can thus create entities more or less closely related to Oni's original ones, possibly with new storyline roles (Ninja Comguys, BGI executives, cyborg enforcers, WCG troops... you name it: it's almost easy - if you're creative). --'''geyser'''

==New/revised scenarios==
"Reshuffled or upgraded binaries are worthless without some genuinely inventive level logic." - geyser

;Taking advantage of savepoint slots
For one thing, Oni's levels allow for 10 savepoints each, which allows:
*either for more savepoints throughout a mission (possibly a lot harder)
*or savepoints that "revisit" a level (alternate missions and storylines)
*or non-mission savepoints like [[Oni Team Arena]] (and other such things) --'''geyser'''

;"Real" gun mod (new difficulty setting)
Oni may be more realistic about guns than many games, but it does give in to one long-standing tradition, which is that characters can take a ridiculous amount of bullets before dying. Even though TCTF members have armor they can wear, Konoko spends plenty of time out of her TCTF battle outfit and takes no more damage than when she's in it.

It would be interesting to amp up the damage gunfire does, and see what effect it has on the gameplay. Imagine actually having to take cover from enemy bullets instead of weaving in and out of them knowing that an occasional hit won't matter. It would also emphasize the importance of stealth over running headfirst into every battle. Let's say, instead of Konoko being able to take two SMG clips worth of bullets, it only takes 10-15 bullets (1/3 to 1/2 of a clip) to bring her down with this mod.

Admittedly, I'm also bringing the idea of armor into this, which I know we've talked about before. It would make more sense, with this mod in place, if Konoko's battle armor absorbed more damage than her jacket and blue jeans. (Of course, that might make one wonder why she doesn't wear the stuff more often... maybe it's better to leave armor out of this.) --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

P.S.: Another aspect of realism would be to greatly increase the distance at which gunfire can be heard. Right now, it's definitely too small of a radius to be realistic. And do bullets hitting walls attract the AI's attention? They don't seem to. Certainly if I heard a bullet hit the wall next to my head, I'd at least be on alert to see who was firing, even if I didn't immediately know their location. This modification would also balance out the added power in a gun with the fact that enemies are more likely to come find you when you use it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

::Easily doable. :) I've considered it before, though I already hate SMGs enough. -_- I'll make it into a package soon enough. (I've forbidden myself from making new packages for now...) [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 07:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

:::Well, let's see if someone else is interested in doing this as a learning exercise (since it is a pretty straight-forward hack, that is, the bullet modding would be, not the armor side of things). I'd prefer someone who doesn't already have a ton on their plate to take this on, and I know that between certain members getting more free time soon, and the eager newbies we have on the forum, there's someone we can ask to do this for us. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 12:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

:::Gumby, wasn't there an "ONCC dilemma" with [http://www.mods.oni2.net/system/files/material_depending_damage_beta4.zip that mod?]
::::Yes, we can only have one mod using ONCCs at a time. Until I code in ways for mods to deselect other mods, there isn't much to do about it. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 17:35, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Iritscen, I would take a look at the bomber. He's more active in matter of gunshots. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSYJqcsD_bo (starts at 0:42)] --[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 11:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

::::Interesting, Paradox. That's not a bad radius on the bomber. I did a little testing with the Thug, who was the character that started this little rant of mine, and although his radius for hearing gunfire is quite low, he does at least come find you if a bullet hits near him. So would we have to change an ONCC setting or change a setting for the weapon particle, to make the gun's sound radius larger? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 12:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

:::Methinks that the gun shot's sound radius (red line in vid) is okay as it is now except for the impact's sound radius (yellow line). Should be slightly increased. But in some cases AI seem to "ignore" both (paying quite low attention to it). So, I think the changes you need can be found in [[OBD:BINA/OBJC/CHAR#Less_basic_setup_-_Inventory.2C_team.2C_jobs.2C_alert.2Fpursuit|ONCC or CHAR (see pursuit modes)]] and might also interfere with part of the [[OBD:BINA/OBJC/CMBT#About_pursuit_distance|combat profile]]. Can't definite say, I hope you will find the answer. --[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 16:56, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

::::I'm having trouble finding any red line in that video. Maybe it's my colorblindness, dunno. At what time(s) does it appear? Anyway, looking at the video, I feel like, in real life, a gunshot's sound would definitely carry all the way across the tarmac. But it seems that if we increased the gun's sound radius as much as I'm thinking, it might be a problem because sounds carry through walls in Oni. So you would end up alerting enemies on other floors in a building and in other rooms. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::...sound does travel through walls in real life though. :S [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 05:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
::::::But walls dampen sound IRL. My thought was that, in-game, sounds would probably travel unfairly far through walls if we increased the radius. Now I'm not so sure, because it seems to be bigger than I thought, and yet we don't observe AIs running in from other floors to find us. Probably this is because (a) those characters are not spawned yet, or else (b) they hear you but can't see you, so they don't come find you. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
::::Second try. [http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/139715/sound_detection.avi Here's] the vid in full glory. Don't become irritated by the [http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn207/unknownfuture/Oni_Galore_Images/talk/sounds.jpg extra sound sphere]... Well, we haven't tested a bigger gun shot radius but I agree with you that the chances are high that it would lead to new problems. --[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 09:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::Thank you, I can see the line now, and the .jpg really helps explain things for me. I think I will withdraw my suggestion about increasing any sound radii. I would still like to see how the game plays with the change in firepower, though. It's not an urgent thing though, so let's just keep it in mind for someone to try in the future. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

==AI improvements==
;Patrol paths
It is also essential to set up innovative patrol paths (redeeming stealth). --'''geyser'''

;Ninja dodging
I don't know if [http://geyser.oni2.net/genesis/screenshots/_oni_07.jpg this] was a "manufactured" shot or not, but it's still awesome. Now, Loser has already gotten basic dodging working; what would it take to specifically get ninjas to either "ninja-slide" or jump as a form of dodging fire? Also, that jumping dude is ''really'' jumping. How would the game play out if the ninjas actually did have greater leaping ability than Konoko? It would make sense, wouldn't it? Especially if they're androids as ''some'' people like to think ;-) --'''Iritscen'''
:NOTE: Ninjas actually jump higher than Konoko if they use "jetpack timer" powered jump as well (hold spacebar). According to my observations (only empiric - nothing proven) there is probably bug in AI2 code. AI2 computes distance of far jump as if char used jetpacked jump, yet AI2 for some reason CANNOT do more than tap jump.
:Next, for AI2 "special" dodge - looks like AI2 is somewheat "vector" powered. And by than way, AI2 can only run/walk/creep. Acrobatics are MELEE only. If we had source....you know the rest.:--[[User:Loser|Loser]] 19:26, 13 November 2008 (CET) /NOTE

::So it looks like there's two things worth looking into (second one may be too hard, I realize, but this is all hypothetical):
::- Can we get AI2 to do more than a tap jump? (P.S.: Can ninjas actually jump as high as seen in that picture?) --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 20:10, 13 November 2008 (CET)
::- Are we sure that nothing short of engine patching would allow cool dodge moves? <strike>If the AI knows when it's being fired at, is there some way to add to the dodging routines links to the animations for side-rolls/slides and high jumps (for ninjas)?</strike> Actually, I thought a little more about what you said, and it seems that what I'm proposing here is impossible to do without actually altering code. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 20:10, 13 November 2008 (CET)
::''Ninjas ''do'' run/jump significantly faster/higher than Konoko, especially with the maximal body size factor. As for the jetpacking (an upwards acceleration), it's equivalent to lesser gravity, so just make the character-specific gravity factor smaller and you're done. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:00, 14 November 2008 (CET)''
:::Won't that mess up the speed at which the ninjas fall back down? [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::::Not much. Anyway, it is very straightforward to tweak the tap-jump parameters (initial velocity and "gravity" acceleration) so that the AI behaves consistently. Like for the dashing, it is not clear whether the implementation is bugged or incomplete, and there is a workaround, so a "real fix" is not very likely or urgent right now. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:07, 14 November 2008 (CET)
::Hypothetical features = ''real'' scope creep ^_^ As for flashy dodging, there's more to an implementation than "patching" the engine: in order to figure out just what needs to be rewritten and how, you need the source. Or rather Loser needs the source. Get the source, give it to Loser, and then Just Watch. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:07, 14 November 2008 (CET)

;Better Mutant Muro combat
This is basically just a summary of a chat I had with Loser about Mutant Muro and his current shortcomings. We felt that there are a few notable issues with the killed_griffen=true fight:
:1. Muro's generally quite easy to run circles around for the entire fight; the problem is that:
::A. He lacks few truly dangerous and hard-to-avoid moves; the forward-sliding move is good, and the lightning is kinda tricky to avoid, but nothing else is hard to deal with.
::B. Does being so big mean he has to be that slow? Muro goes from being dangerously agile and acrobatic to a giant that just [[wiktionary:plod#Verb|plods]] around.
::C. His limited moveset is very predictable. There's rarely a sense of "I wonder what he's about to do". This allows abuse of the AI, by running around in a small circle just ahead of him, letting him catch up to you, then cartwheeling away as he gets close enough to use a melee attack. If he uses the "oops I should really stop getting my hand stuck in the ground" attack, you run in and hit him a few times and then cartwheel away as he crouches, and you are outside the range of the lightning. Lather, rinse, repeat.
:2. Konoko's Daodan status is completely overlooked. Has she gone Imago? Is she at least close to Imago? If not, could she realistically defeat Imago Muro?

Loser and I agreed that Mutant Muro needs:
*more fast moves that are hard to dodge
*moves that deal way more damage so he's actually intimidating to fight, as he should be
*less predictability

Suggestions to meet these criteria include:
*another energy-based attack besides the push/pull lightning that is actually harmful (but dodgeable, of course)
*speeding up his walk
*giving him a bigger leap attack (does anyone ever get landed on by the current leap? not me)
*adding a new move such as a grab (perhaps stabbing his target with his hand) or a massive throw

You might say, "Now, hold on, we don't want to make an impossible fight here." But notice point #2 above; it's unclear to what extent Konoko is using, or needs to use, her Daodan abilities to beat Muro. What if we present the fight as being too difficult for her unless she uses hypoes to go into an overpower state? It can be hinted in the Pause Game screen earlier in the mission that she needs to save hypoes for this fight so the player has fair warning. And using a modded ONCC and/or some BSL, we could have her abilities increase dramatically while in overpower, so that she can fight Muro with better odds.

Well, what do y'all think? And feel free to correct me if I mis-stated your point of view, Loser. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

One things that keeps bothering me is that the AI never trip the lasers. I am jumping through the lasers, shooting at them as they follow, get to the end and see them just recklessly sprinting through them. I am guessing that this falls under AI improvement. I also have no clue what would need to be changed for this to go into effect. Thanks, Otaku-kun

==Riddles for engine patchers==
;Dynamic holstering
:Combat situation and owner's weapon based. Customized for each weapon. That means:
:-new flags in [[CMBT]] file. It has "melee override" so far, used values are 0,1,2 (cancelled),3,4,5. New values should be counterparts of these ( long (6) medium (7), short(8) ), but causing AI to holster/unholster weapon rather than switching melee/weapon stance.
:-new flag in [[ONWC]] file. Currently there are some (appearently) unused flag bits which should be used for this.
::-Add new flag. Weapon with this flag causes AI which wields this weapon to unholster when focused enemy is knockdowned, even if it is in range where our AI should have weapon holstered according to [[CMBT]]. Holster again when focused enemy goes into any different animation than knockdowned, blownuped or lying (so AI holsters as enemy tries to getup). -- '''Loser'''
:::I don't understand some of what you propose above, it's very brief and technical; are you saying that you want AI to be able to shoot someone when they've been knocked down?
:::I may not understand what you wrote, but it made me wish, for the first time, that ''I'' could unholster a weapon while knocked down, and shoot the enemy before I got up. That would be an awesome combat technique. Characters already have a small arc of rotation when on the ground, for some reason, so what if they had a gun in their hands and could aim with a vertical arc from the ground to the ceiling, and with a limited horizontal arc similar to what they seem to have already? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 20:10, 13 November 2008 (CET)
::::Brilliant idea !!! Somebody should check whether it is possible. Sorry, I cannot...x_X
::::About that you don't understand: old wish of mine. Three wishes in fact.
:::*1) You see AI character. Unarmed. You run to fight it (no stealth killing). AI2 hears you when you are still quite far, turns, UNHOLSTERS ITS MERCURY BOW (or any other weapon) and....^_^.
:::*2) You see AI shooting at you with w3_phr. You dodge shots while approaching this enemy, but at certain distance, AI HOLSTERS ITS WEAPON (not holding it in hand) and fights with you. If you try to run away or somehow you cross requred distance, AI unholsters and fires again.
:::*3) You fight with AI from case 2). This AI manages to knockdown you. Now when you enter knockdown animation, AI automaticaly unholsters its weapon and fires at you. You get up as quickly as possible. The moment you start getting up, AI holsters and continues fighting you with MELEE. -- Loser
:::::Ah, I see, that is a good idea. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 20:45, 13 November 2008 (CET)

;Smart jumping
Add this as flag in ONCC. If set, this AI tries systematically (not MELEE randomly) to jump across gaps it can pass in order to reach its enemy. -- '''Loser'''

;Unsticking bug
Yes, I know that Neo never gets this one, but I do, and geyser, too. Type a cheat into the pause window, and the camera goes flying away as if you pressed "]" in dev mode. I believe it is caused by some sort of overflow in the cheat buffer. The buffer is not cleared when you close the window. For example: type "live", close the window, open it again, type "forever". I got it to bug up by typing random gibberish, too. Clearing the cheat buffer when you close the window might fix the problem. If someone (Neo?) who knows more about these sorts of things could comment, that would be great. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 21:10, 15 November 2008 (CET)
:A question and a fact:
:#Gumby, is there any reason why you are calling this effect "unsticiking"? There is no mention of "unsticking" in the engine apart from the '''unstick''' keypress event, which I think corresponds to Ctr+Alt/Shift+U (because it indeed "unsticks" a "stuck" character).
:#Once and for all, I'd like to stress that it is ''not'' true that "the camera goes flying away". What happens is that the ''character'' drifts away, the velocity being frozen. The character is not rendered during the drifting. If you jump, the camera fails to drift up.
:[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:14, 16 November 2008 (CET)
::Ok, then what should I call it? Bug-induced-derendering? [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 04:52, 16 November 2008 (CET)
:::The drifting caused by ] can be called "the ] bug/feature". As for the thing you're trying to fix, when and if you're sure the problem is with the cheat buffer, then I'd call it the "cheat buffer bug", intuitively enough. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 05:23, 16 November 2008 (CET)

;Transforming Muro
Am I the only one who thinks it's a bit weak that Muro transforms into his Imago state off-screen? The camera cuts away, and then back, and bam! he's mutated. But of course the reason is that the engine doesn't support morphing geometry in models, we all know that. Now, my question is, Shouldn't it be possible to cycle through transitional models rapidly to give the illusion of a morphing model? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 01:59, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
:Well, would rather not. Spamming up level19 with ONCCs is a bit unneccessary... [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 14:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
::It would totally be worth it if we had the ability to produce a cool transformation, imo. A little annoyance when switching characters vs. a majorly cool upgrade to the final fight. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
:::There are better ways to go about this, methinks. Like adjusting his body size through scripting. I'd be ok with a halfways-transformed ONCC, if someone wants to model it, though. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 07:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

;Annoying bouncing shells
I think this was discussed a while back, but isn't there a way to stop bullet casings from bouncing perpetually? And was this the result of a mod we made, or did they always do that? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
::Was an AE mod to incrase the time bullet shells stick around. We have two options:
* Scrap it completely
* Fix the bouncing. (I think I can...) :)
::Your thoughts? [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 07:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
:::I'll wait for Loser to respond to this, I know he has something to say on the matter. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 12:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

==Miscellaneous tweaks==
;All click-clacks are equal
A more general problem is that the Medium and Heavy variants don't sound softer than Konoko's footsteps, as if all the footwear had very hard soles, not rubber or plastic. The only way to fix this is to add some [[Impt]], extend the [[ONIE]], adapt [[ONCC]], and tweak/(re)author [[OSBD]] and/or [[SNDD]]. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:13, 14 November 2008 (CET)
:To me, the problem is that characters like Barabus and Mutant Muro have the same footsteps as a Comguy or light Striker, when they should have plodding, heavy footsteps. In fact, the male footstep sounds softer to me than the female footstep, which has a noticeable high-heelish aspect to it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:31, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

;Smart alarm behaviour
Loser wanted to make the AI attack you even when trying to get to an alert console. I don't think he made any changes in that regard yet, but I was chasing down a ninja Comguy who wanted to push the alert button, and when I got in his way, he *did* attack me. I think that further increasing the likeliness of the AI to attack you while in run-for-alert-console mode is not necessary, and maybe even a bad idea, since they can now dash as fast as Konoko, and so it's much more exciting/frightening when they run for the console. Staying and fighting would make them less of a threat, really, since after pressing the button they will fight you anyway and then you will also have other problems to deal with too. So I vote for "no change" in this regard. --'''Iritscen

:"This is a mistake". The point of Loser's aproach is that AI will interrupt their console-running job only when the player is about to take advantage of them (e.g., tackle them - Konoko still dashes faster than anyone except for Ninjas - or backbreak them at the console). They will then resume running as soon as they've put some distance between them and the player (e.g., by knocking the player down and/or retreating). This should much more consistent than the way it happens with the original AI: if you force a console-running AI to fight back, they typically won't resume the alarm-running job when they have the chance. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 05:22, 22 September 2008 (CEST)

::I dislike the current console behavior. You can just backbreak them as they use the console. Not sure what the best fix is though. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 06:12, 22 September 2008 (CEST)

;Breakable glass tweak
I don't know whether it would be too much for engine or not. Due to the fact we can import level geometry (incomplete so far, I know, but still...) what about modifying breakable windows, giving them more [[AGQG|GQ]]s.
:Point is that then big glass panel would not be fully shattered because one small bullet from w1_tap hit it in the corner (only corner is shattered), while bigger blasts (w3_phr, w5_sbg) would destroy larger area of glass panel or whole panel.
I can see one bug tough - shooting edges of such a glass panel will make it "float" in the thin air. --[[User:Loser|Loser]] 13:25, 15 November 2008 (CET)
::Heh, that bug alone is a good reason ''not'' to do it in the way you suggest. Also, if "only the corner is shattered", surely, the shattered section won't be rectangular? The only thing that will look good is a dense [[wikipedia:curtain wall|curtain wall]]: little glass panels and criss-crossed beams between them; but then you'll complain about grenades and such not damaging the (thin) framework ^_^. There is an alternative approach - to somehow make some projectiles go through glass without breaking it (basically creating a decal and moving on). I'd say that's definitely possible. But - scope-creepy ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:14, 16 November 2008 (CET)
:::Just a reminder that this page isn't about what should be in the Edition; that page is [[AE:Bug-fix and feature requests|here]]. This page is for items that may or may not be in scope for the AE, but even if they aren't, could still be done separately from the AE. In other words, people can suggest anything and everything here.
:::In response to this idea, I am actually happy with the glass as it currently breaks; it's fun to watch a whole pane collapse at once, although I don't know how realistic it is. The one thing I find odd in the area of weapons vs. ordinary windows is that the SBG's shots either explode when they hit glass, or bounce off it, if you hold the 2nd trigger. I'd like to see them break the glass and keep on going. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 00:32, 16 November 2008 (CET)

;The Xiox-button pusher
For some reason, the guy who seems to be a scientist, who reports on Konoko's increasing Daodan surges, is dressed in a TCTF cop uniform. He should be a scientist in a coat like the woman in the same scene who reports on the power of the Xiox-destruct mechanism. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:24, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

;Touching up the Shinatama farewell scene
I've never been very impressed by the place that Konoko finds Shinatama in the APC. Mainly it's the fact that Shinatama is just sitting there, and there's some really thick, ugly square-edged cables nearby. If we could make those wires look more realistic, and maybe show that Shinatama is still hooked up to them, and maybe also that she is restrained, it would help flesh out the setting a bit more. Otherwise it's kinda silly how Konoko wants to get her out of there but just stands there until Shinatama receives the self-destruct order. Also, Shinatama really needs to show some damage, not just sit there slumped and say she's been hurt. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:24, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
[[Category:Modding ideas]]