https://wiki.oni2.net/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Guido&feedformat=atomOniGalore - User contributions [en]2024-03-28T12:01:23ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.39.6https://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=File:Door_poster_(isolated_by_Guido).png&diff=28348File:Door poster (isolated by Guido).png2019-05-29T06:00:19Z<p>Guido: Here's a fully colored and restored version of the door poster without the Oni logo (removed from Kon's left foot).</p>
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<div>Here's a fully colored and restored version of the door poster without the Oni logo (removed from Kon's left foot).</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=28310Wasteland Flowers2019-05-10T19:16:13Z<p>Guido: At last I managed to adapt the unfinished script by 17secs and complete the paneling of book 4.</p>
<hr />
<div><br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFprp94.jpg]]<br />
<br />
“Come on, fighter! Don’t you want to fight back?!” <br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
<br />
*book 1: 60 pages.<br />
(re-editing is ongoing)<br />
<br />
*book 2 (blood and water): 90 pages.<br />
(re-editing is ongoing, a few additions, and 6 pages needing redrawing)<br />
<br />
*book 3 (promise): 122 pages.<br />
(mostly rough sketches, now commencing the drawing phase)<br />
<br />
*book 4 (atonement): 66 pages.<br />
(draft only) <br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO pp90(detail).jpg]]<br />
<br />
Finally the paneling of bk. 4 is complete...<br />
<br />
<br />
====Leaks====<br />
<gallery><br />
Image:GUIDO WFb1 44.jpg|from Book I p.44<br />
Image:GUIDO WFb2 98-99.jpg|from Book II pp.98-99<br />
Image:GUIDO WFb4 01-02.jpg|from Book IV pp.272-273<br />
Image:GUIDO WFb4 03-04.jpg|from Book IV pp.274-275<br />
Image:GUIDO WF leak1.jpg|from Book III<br />
Image:GUIDO WF leak2.png|from Book III<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Oni 2]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=25501Wasteland Flowers2016-08-15T12:22:26Z<p>Guido: resuming work...</p>
<hr />
<div><br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFprp94.jpg]]<br />
<br />
“Come on, fighter! Don’t you want to fight back?!” <br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
<br />
*book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
(re-editing is ongoing)<br />
<br />
*book 2 (blood and water): page 94 of 94 <br />
<br />
*book 3 (promise): page 119 of 119<br />
<br />
*book 4 (atonement): ... <br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO pp90(detail).jpg]]<br />
<br />
So close and yet so far...<br />
<br />
<br />
====Leaks====<br />
<gallery><br />
Image:GUIDO WFb1 44.jpg|from Book I p.44<br />
Image:GUIDO WFb2 98-99.jpg|from Book II pp.98-99<br />
Image:GUIDO WFb4 01-02.jpg|from Book IV pp.272-273<br />
Image:GUIDO WFb4 03-04.jpg|from Book IV pp.274-275<br />
Image:GUIDO WF leak1.jpg|from Book III<br />
Image:GUIDO WF leak2.png|from Book III<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Oni 2]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=File:Guido_-_pp90_detail.jpg&diff=25500File:Guido - pp90 detail.jpg2016-08-15T12:11:31Z<p>Guido: </p>
<hr />
<div></div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=File:Guido_-_WFb2_98-99.jpg&diff=25499File:Guido - WFb2 98-99.jpg2016-08-15T11:29:27Z<p>Guido: </p>
<hr />
<div></div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=File:Guido_-_WFb1_44.jpg&diff=25498File:Guido - WFb1 44.jpg2016-08-15T11:29:00Z<p>Guido: </p>
<hr />
<div></div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=File:Guido_-_WFb4_03-04.jpg&diff=25497File:Guido - WFb4 03-04.jpg2016-08-15T11:14:10Z<p>Guido: </p>
<hr />
<div></div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=File:Guido_-_WFb4_01-02.jpg&diff=25496File:Guido - WFb4 01-02.jpg2016-08-15T11:13:15Z<p>Guido: </p>
<hr />
<div></div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=25493Wasteland Flowers2016-08-13T09:36:57Z<p>Guido: Daodan waveforms detected.</p>
<hr />
<div><br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFprp94.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
"Do you remember the charter of the TCTF Ms. Hasegawa? I guess you probably believed it, once..." <br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
page count (...)<br />
<br />
*book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
(re-editing is ongoing)<br />
<br />
*book 2 (blood and water): page 94 of 94 <br />
<br />
*book 3 (promise): page 119 of 119<br />
<br />
*book 4 (atonement): ... <br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
So close and yet so far...<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO WF leak2.png]]<br />
[[Image:GUIDO WF leak1.jpg]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Oni 2]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=File:Guido_-_WF_leak_1.jpg&diff=25492File:Guido - WF leak 1.jpg2016-08-13T09:25:03Z<p>Guido: </p>
<hr />
<div></div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=File:Guido_-_WF_leak_2.png&diff=25491File:Guido - WF leak 2.png2016-08-13T09:24:00Z<p>Guido: </p>
<hr />
<div></div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Guido&diff=24116User talk:Guido2015-05-23T05:07:08Z<p>Guido: Still alive.</p>
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<div>So, ... uhm still alive? I'm almost too afarid to ask if you are still there .. and drawing wasterland flowers. Give us a sign if you are in the mood. --[[User:Paradox-01|paradox-01]] ([[User talk:Paradox-01|talk]]) 01:03, 17 May 2015 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
Yes, I am still alive, and I have not given up on this project. Not that I have much time on my hands, to be honest, but at least I am managing to grind up Alex's original script of book 4, and start with some rough paneling. <br />
<br />
Hopefully, you'll hear more from me. <br />
--[[User:Guido|Guido]] (Lone wolf mode ON) <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
:I'd like to help you out with your user space : since it's more than just one page, with linking and such, it gets messy rather easily.<br />
:For now, just have a look at the changes I made... And check out [[Help:Contents|THIS]], too.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 19:44, 27 September 2006 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
:::Ok... <br />
::[[User:Guido|Guido]]<br />
----<br />
:USE THE PREVIEW BUTTON MORE.<br />
:PLEASE.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:15, 25 November 2006 (CET)<br />
----<br />
:Sorry again for my sudden leaving on IRC. If you want to discuss, inform or so ever you can do via email because I don't look often into the forum pm section. :|<br />
:Or, we exchange our ICQ/MSN addresses so I could join some conferences of you and geyser. What do you think?<br />
::[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 21:43, 16 September 2007 (CEST)<br />
:If you want to join the conversations between Serguei and me you are welcome. Point is, I have no idea on how things like IMMs work, and what should be done to allow small conference chats. Please, contact Geyser and see how grouped conversations can be arranged. My yahoo messenger ID is quite simple:[myrealname.myrealsurname]. <br />
:See you on later then.<br />
::[[User:Guido|Guido]]<br />
<br />
<br />
==Drawing tips==<br />
:Ok then, the time has arrived. (Hm, you are offline right now so I write it here.)<br />
:You said you can help me out a bit with character drawings. And if you have time to do so take a look [http://www.webspace-invasion.com/jackd/projekt3.htm here].<br />
:BTW, can you tell me how to create a good perspective? (The one right now is a mess.)<br />
:Main (project) picture is the pure grey one.<br />
:If you want to know the little context meaning of picture follow the link on the project site.<br />
:A cover the a sub chapter... Well, I just want to do so.<br />
::What do you think of the whole?<br />
:::[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 01:23, 7 October 2007 (CEST)<br />
:"A cover the a sub chapter"???<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:23, 7 October 2007 (CEST)<br />
;Perspective<br />
:Perspective is basically the projection of a 3D world onto a 2D support (paper, computer screen, ...)<br />
:For basic rules and limitations, as well as a few tutorials, see [[wikipedia:Perspective_(graphical)|Wikipedia]] and [http://mathdl.maa.org/convergence/1/?pa=content&sa=viewDocument&nodeId=477 links] [http://www.scottmcdaniel.net/drawing/perspective/perspective.html therein].<br />
::(of course there are other tutorials than these, and Guido will have further tips)<br />
:Apart from generalities, the major problem is with the aspect ratios of objects in a complex scene.<br />
:One thing you can do is make a real scene by arranging real 3D objects in your room: boxes, bottles...<br />
:Then you place your eye where the "camera" would be and instantly see the right scales and projections.<br />
:Another thing you can do is find a photograph of the place you want to render (in your case, Frisco).<br />
:[http://mayhem-chaos.net/photoblog/images/sf_golden_gate.jpg HERE] you can see the Golden Gate bridge and its general situation with respect to SF.<br />
::(you can see that the land next to the bridge is basically naked, because it's rocky or whatever)<br />
:[http://www.earthinpictures.com/world/usa/san_francisco/golden_gate_bridge.jpg HERE] you can see it from up close, with the nearest building (Fort Point)and a few people.<br />
:The biggest problem with your scene is that you want to show too much in a single shot: uncompatible view points.<br />
:One problem is that the roadway is high above the ground level in the vicinity of the bridge,<br />
::so if your camera is shooting horizontally at the warehouse door and the people in front of it,<br />
:::you may not be able to see the bridge itself, let alone the cars on it, in the same shot.<br />
:The only building that's as close to the bridge as you suggest is apparently [[wikipedia:Fort_Point%2C_San_Francisco|Fort Point]]<br />
::(and as you can see, the roadway is clearly far above the fort)<br />
:If the fort is not good enough, you could take a less extreme shot at the bridge, [http://www.ged.rwth-aachen.de/Ww/people/chris/jpg's/Joshua%20Frisco%20St%20Louis%2006/003%20%20Golden%20gate%20and%20harbour%20web.jpg from a harbor district].<br />
::The strait and the bridge over it will be seen in the distance (no cars, sorry), and there'll be warehouses.<br />
:::Of course Google Image may not have the perfect shot for your story (e.g., landfill), but it's a start.<br />
:Another thing you can do is split the drawing into a few different perspectives:<br />
:#a wide situation shot (e.g., closer to the bridge and cars, but focused on the faraway warehouses)<br />
:#a closer shot where you can see the warehouses and the vehicles, people standing, doors opening<br />
:#a final shot where you finally distinguish the features of the characters and other details...<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:23, 7 October 2007 (CEST)<br />
;Characters<br />
:Not many tips except for practicing a whole lot more.<br />
:Baggy clothes do a good job hiding the anatomy, but...<br />
:*the neck is much too thick; head's OK<br />
:*the left shoe should be in perspective<br />
:*the stylized eyes just don't work here<br />
:(with realistic eyes she'd look great!)<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:23, 7 October 2007 (CEST)<br />
: > the neck is much too thick; head's OK<br />
::I my opinion the whole body don't fit (so, the neck too). However, I minimized the head around 5%. Result: [http://www.webspace-invasion.com/jackd/Bilder/projekt3/Daya_off_of_work_edit.jpg here].<br />
::Because of the eyes, the right (a bit too small) hand and in aspect of practice I'm re-making the picture.<br />
: > the left shoe should be in perspective<br />
::Well, she is supposed to go.<br />
: > Baggy clothes do a good job hiding the anatomy<br />
:: Baggy clothes are comfortable... ;)<br />
<br />
::Talk about the scenes later.<br />
:::[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 18:45, 7 October 2007 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
==Images==<br />
:As for the roughs : it might be a good idea ''not'' to upload some of them on the wiki.<br />
:Because there's a lot of them and some of them you may want to dismiss pretty soon.<br />
:Also because they can't be renamed, and names like "Kon face 1.jpg" are easily overloaded.<br />
::(dunno, you could/should have called them "experimental" or something ^^)<br />
:If you can get an FTP client, then hosting "exploration" on guido.oni2.net is optimal.<br />
:Then again, thumbnailing and gallerying go so much faster with wiki-based images...<br />
::...yeah, leave them where they are, just try to pick more specific names.<br />
:(I don't mean additional info on the face expression :<br />
::just "Kon face study 1.jpg" instead of "Kon face 1.jpg")<br />
:Commenting on those faces some time this week.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:59, 27 November 2006 (CET)<br />
<br />
Acknowledged.<br />
::[[User:Guido|guido]] 21:33, 29 November 2006 (CET)<br />
----<br />
:As for the node-related pictures (graphical replies to my talk page entries) :<br />
::I definitely think your talk pages could/should be moved over to the Oni2 namespace<br />
:::as potential nodes of a story (or stories). Script, discussion, actual content.<br />
:Then the page and image names should be somewhat systematic (that will make linking easier).<br />
::(something like Oni2:Node42 as the article name and Image:Oni2node42image1.jpg)<br />
:::(give or take a few spaces in the names ^^)<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:59, 27 November 2006 (CET)<br />
<br />
We may do this, but how do you think we can organize a framework-page for these nodes? Of course you have my blessing.<br />
<br />
The nodes we have been discussing so far are not linked each other in a linear way. Connection among nodes should be shown through something like a table <br />
or an input-output matrix... (I am sorry, I got carried away, please forget this one)<br />
::[[User:Guido|guido]] 21:41, 29 November 2006 (CET)<br />
<br />
If you have any idea, or you think you can handle it, you have my blessing, of course.<br />
::[[User:Guido|guido]] 21:34, 29 November 2006 (CET)<br />
<br />
:Indeed. This is no single, linear progression of events : it's ''all connected''.<br />
:But actually, I think there doesn't ''have'' to be a "framework-page" at all...<br />
:About the double entry matrix : it's not as nice as a flowchart and wastes a lot of space.<br />
:Just as a graph, it is likely to get unreadable past a hundred nodes or so.<br />
:I'd say there's nothing wrong with nodes just linking to each other : no overview.<br />
::(that's how gamebooks work, after all : every page is a "local graph" of sorts)<br />
:Additionally, I think an up-to-date semi-automatic index page of existing nodes will do fine.<br />
::(with descriptions and non-trivial link information transcluded from the nodes themselves)<br />
:I may have to experiment a bit more with hoverbox captions and even graphs<br />
::(if GraphViz produces nice-looking diagrams with default settings, why not?)<br />
:If you're really bothered about the lack of flowchart support right now,<br />
::I can have GraphViz installed. Do you want it? I'm not sure it'd be much more than a toy...<br />
:We ''could'' render flowcharts of whole stories (large, messy graphs), or regions (vicinities of certain nodes).<br />
:That would be a lot of work for no big benefit, though, keeping those graphs up-to-date...<br />
:There's a good chance the graphs will end up unreadable pretty soon, though (I'm repeating myself).<br />
:I'm glad to have "your blessing, of course", of course. ^^<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:59, 30 November 2006 (CET)<br />
:Oh, and there doesn't have to be a ''single'' storyline out there.<br />
:Conflicting entities, contradictory events. Sequels, prequels, paraquels, whatnot.<br />
:Definitely, no matrix can do the job properly. No global graph, either.<br />
:Every story is best outlined in a textual way.<br />
:Every link of a fancy graph can take the form of a sentence or paragraph, <br />
::that will be more informative and less ambiguous than a flowchart.<br />
:Yeah, something like storylines-in-progress.<br />
:Not sure what we'll call them (tree pages?) but they'll definitely do the trick.<br />
:Bottom line : screw flowcharts; plain-text "framework page"<br />
:And that's it, off to sleep.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:59, 30 November 2006 (CET)<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
:On second thought, about those roughs (mostly those of Kon's face)<br />
:If there's enough to comment on (or complain about) on a pic-per-pic basis,<br />
::then of course we can issue those comments on the "image page" ov every pic.<br />
:Then you can either overwrite the pic with a new version, or upload it with a suffix (e.g. "a", "b", ...)<br />
:*If you overwrite the old image, you can keep the old around on an external server.<br />
::(and show it along with the new one, like I did for the tandem ride [[:Image:GUIDO Mai Tandem 2.jpg|HERE]])<br />
:*If the image is a new one, its page can inherit the old discussion and/or link to the old page.<br />
:Global comments on a group of images should probably go in some global talk page.<br />
::(same as for the "nodes", I think Mai's character study could/should go over to the Oni2 namespace)<br />
:I understand "Kon" is a nice original touch, but in terms of Google hits it's about as ambiguous as Mai.<br />
:So I'd just put it [[Oni2:Konoko|HERE]], along with [[Oni2:Characters/Mai|THIS]]. See you there.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:59, 27 November 2006 (CET)<br />
<br />
I am the first one who should complain about my drawings. I am disappointed by what I manage to do these days.<br />
I lack the time, the concentration, and the sharp eye I used to have only half a year ago. Even when I find the time, all I get is just a fuzzy mess of sketches: each of them is just a clumsy reflection of what I've been aiming at. There has always been a gap between my hand and my imagination: today it seems larger than ever. It does not depend on the subject I am focusing on, it has to do with a personal state. I hope I will find a way through it. Sadly there's no one who can show it up to me.<br />
::[[User:Guido|guido]] 21:32 29 November 2006 (CET)<br />
:Take your time, man. And try using the eraser more ^^ << ACTUAL ADVICE<br />
:Or listen to something else than NIN for a change ^^ << STUPID JOKE!!!<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:59, 30 November 2006 (CET)<br />
<br />
::re: tandem<br />
::There's someone else how likes big bikes and black units. =) (taken from: Battle Angle Alita, Last Order 10) [http://www.webspace-invasion.com/jackd/Oni_Galore/Gunnm_(Mukade1).jpg 1] [http://www.webspace-invasion.com/jackd/Oni_Galore/Gunnm_(Mukade2).jpg 2] [http://www.webspace-invasion.com/jackd/Oni_Galore/Gunnm_(Mukade3).jpg 3]<br />
::I found the analogy amusing, maybe you will get also this impression..<br />
::The motorcycle might be thieved from Akira but I don't care^^<br />
::His fight abilities "aren't bad" but more interesting is his ideology: he's mentioned as a hardcore anarchist and do not accept any hierarchy.<br />
::That's the point where the analogy ends. In [[Oni2:Truth_Number_Zero|Truth Number Zero]] Mukade is an idealist, fighting for general human values and development in society. Zekka's interest lies in his personal freedom only. I overestimate this in state of my euphoria^^<br />
:::[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 18:15, 28 October 2007 (CET)<br />
also tsutomu nihei has a penchant for dark suits and nasty bikes... check biomega, scanlations are available here [http://www.omanga.net]<br />
:::[[User:Guido|Guido]] 15:30, 4 November 2007 (CET)<br />
::It's perfect for getting nightmares, hehe. Now I've a better imagination of extremely negative alienated Daodan beings. It was also quite inspirational, thanks.<br />
::ps: The girls name is Ion and she adepted to the virus. So she has a dark side inside her - reminds me a bit on the [http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/viewtopic.php?id=30 iON/NO!]-thread.<br />
:Heck, this is getting cluttered...<br />
:"In Truth Number Zero Mukade is an idealist, fighting for general human values and development in society."<br />
:That's not quite true. If it's the Old Mukade you're referring to, his altruistic ways are far from obvious.<br />
:And as for the New Mukade, he's increasingly alienated, even if he was a rational altruist to start with...<br />
:I guess you can draw a parallel between Zekka and the Old Mukade in his early years as a freelance assassin.<br />
:"The girls name is Ion and she adepted to the virus. So she has a dark side inside her" Gotta have a look.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:18, 11 November 2007 (CET)<br />
<br />
@Paradox: I am happy you liked Biomega. Nihei has been one of my fav artists so far. Despite his knowledge about anathomy and such is a bit questionable, I think he enjoys the rare gift of creating deep, unforgettable athmospheres, and developing a unique imaginery.<br />
As Geyser told you - in truth number zero - Mukade is a name referring to two *separate* characters. The former draws close to the original concept of oldman and he represents the linking agent between the past order and the birth of Phoenix. The latter is the crafty ninja we all loved (or feared) in Oni. He is fundamentally what you get after a deadly combo of Hasegawa's researches , oldman's brain engrams, and a trial subject with daodan implanted.<br />
::[[User:Guido|guido]] 21:47, 13 November 2007 (CET)<br />
----<br />
:Will you be discontinuing [http://oni2.blogspot.com/ THIS] as announced?<br />
:(Practically, should we terminate the links to that blog?)<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:14, 27 November 2006 (CET)<br />
<br />
:I feel sick, I feel depressed, I hate all I do. and all I know to do in such times is to be self-destructive.<br />
:Apart from that, I got no comments. and noticed how the access counter has been idle for long, too long.<br />
:Anyway I am not going to close the oni2blog for a while (a couple of months at least). In any case I am intended to find a substitute for it.<br />
:Maybe it is time to reconsider the idea of getting an Oni2.net account...<br />
::[[User:Guido|guido]] 21:17 29 November 2006 (CET)<br />
:Welcome to the "disgustipation" club. This is what you get when you "get creative"...<br />
:(I used to have bipolar disorder a lot, and as you know I wouldn't call myself "cured")<br />
:On the subject of self-desctruction, late reply to you :<br />
::if earth has become an evil place because of people, and we cannot escape it, what can we do?<br />
::If we are confined in a place for all our life, and everything is getting worse, what shall we do?<br />
:Quoting Seal, "no we're never gonna survive, unless we get a little crazy"... ''So'' true.<br />
:Those for whom REM sleep is not enough ''have'' to freak out in a way or another to "deal" with reality.<br />
:Practically, there are people who take chemicals and go to shrinks, and those who ought to. Like me. ^^<br />
:And then your only hope is to be your own shrink, to take some distance with respect to your craze.<br />
:That's when you have a chance to come up with a "way through" that doesn't destroy you completely.<br />
::(I didn't realize you were quoting Reznor, not Frost, with that sig of yours...)<br />
:Nice work, Guido. This is becoming an agony column. Or group therapy. Or something...<br />
:You're always welcome on oni2.net. Alloc's contact info is on the main page of the server.<br />
:Hope that helps. Expect a mail either before, during, or after this weekend ^^<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:59, 30 November 2006 (CET)<br />
:Oh, BTW : seen "No one lives forever#Killer quote"?<br />
::"Well, admitting you have a problem is the first step, I suppose. - I like to think so."<br />
:Rather fitting to the private hells of a few people I know...<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:59, 30 November 2006 (CET)<br />
----<br />
:guido<br />
:I like the Black ops Konoko!<br />
::[[User:EdT|EdT]] 04:11, 1 April 2007 (CEST)<br />
:<br />
:<br />
Great pic (rendezvous). [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 20:48, 20 December 2007 (CET)<br />
Thank you, Ssg. As you already know I won't be active for quite a long while. However don't think I am leaving the OC community with no artists! Someone else is going to take my place, younger but surely talented and with new fresh ideas. [[User:Guido|Guido]] 12:35, 22 December 2007<br />
<br />
It's a pitty that you're leaving. Nevertheless, when you feel up to visit the community in the future, just drop by. As everyone you're always welcome. <br />
<br />
Thank you for your contributions. [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 13:06, 22 December 2007 (CET)<br />
<br />
<br />
I also enjoy your contributions, Guido, and don't be so hard on yourself. Some people love everything they do, even when it's crappy. You, on the other hand, are very talented, so at least try to find a happy medium where you have ''some'' pride in your work. :-)<br />
<br />
Hope to see you around again when it is not a burden on your schedule, and check "Talk:Images#Konoko_V_Art" for my response to your last post. My "art" is meager and amateurish, but I would be honored to provide anything that can be fodder for a true artist. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:37, 25 March 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
Thank you Iritscen. Hold on, some important deadlines are coming close for me. The end of my phd might be either painful or worthless mentioning, but I hold real hopes that I will be able to move back to Planet Oni after then.<br />
::[[User:Guido|Guido]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=24052Wasteland Flowers2015-03-15T07:34:15Z<p>Guido: /* Current progress */</p>
<hr />
<div><br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFprp94.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
"Don't you even realize the questions I haven't asked you?"<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
<br />
page count : 180 (plus 94 pages sketched out)<br />
<br />
*book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
(re-editing is ongoing)<br />
<br />
*book 2 (blood and water): page 94 of 94 <br />
<br />
*book 3 (promise): page 119 of 119<br />
<br />
*book 4 (atonement): 0 of 48 (panel direction complete, storyboarding has begun)<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
So close and yet so far...<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Oni 2]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=24051Wasteland Flowers2015-03-15T07:33:50Z<p>Guido: /* Current progress */</p>
<hr />
<div><br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFprp94.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
"Don't you even realize the questions I haven't asked you?"<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
<br />
page count : 180 (plus 94 pages sketched out)<br />
<br />
*book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
(re-editing is ongoing)<br />
<br />
*book 2 (blood and water): page 94 of 94 <br />
<br />
*book 3 (promise): page 26 of 119<br />
<br />
*book 4 (atonement): 0 of 48 (panel direction complete, storyboarding has begun)<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
So close and yet so far...<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Oni 2]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=24050Wasteland Flowers2015-03-15T07:32:09Z<p>Guido: Undo revision 23040 by Guido (talk)</p>
<hr />
<div><br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFprp94.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
"Don't you even realize the questions I haven't asked you?"<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
<br />
page count : 180 (plus 94 pages sketched out)<br />
<br />
*book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
(re-editing is ongoing)<br />
<br />
*book 2 (blood and water): page 94 of 94 <br />
<br />
*book 3 (promise): page 26 of 120 (all remaining pages sketched out already)<br />
<br />
*book 4 (atonement): 0 of 48 (panel direction complete, storyboarding has begun)<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
So close and yet so far...<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Oni 2]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=23040Wasteland Flowers2014-02-07T13:22:12Z<p>Guido: Enough is enough.</p>
<hr />
<div>=====PROJECT ABORTED=====<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Oni 2]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=22844Wasteland Flowers2013-08-29T12:48:44Z<p>Guido: indeed, this is just a minor edit ^ ^</p>
<hr />
<div><br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFprp94.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
"Don't you even realize the questions I haven't asked you?"<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
<br />
page count : 180 (plus 94 pages sketched out)<br />
<br />
*book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
(re-editing is ongoing)<br />
<br />
*book 2 (blood and water): page 94 of 94 <br />
<br />
*book 3 (promise): page 26 of 120 (all remaining pages sketched out already)<br />
<br />
*book 4 (atonement): 0 of 48 (panel direction complete, storyboarding has begun)<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
The end is nigh<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Oni 2]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=22824Wasteland Flowers2013-08-23T21:26:49Z<p>Guido: /* Current progress */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
Project Resumed<br />
<br />
<br />
page count : 164 (269 sketched out already)<br />
<br />
*book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
(re-editing is ongoing)<br />
<br />
*book 2 (blood and water): page 94 of 94 <br />
<br />
*book 3 (promise): page 10 of 120<br />
<br />
*book 4 (atonement): 0 of 48<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFprp94.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Oni 2]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=22800Wasteland Flowers2013-07-27T08:30:18Z<p>Guido: /* Current progress */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
Project Resumed<br />
<br />
<br />
page count : 164 (209 already sketched out)<br />
<br />
*book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
(re-editing is ongoing)<br />
<br />
*book 2 (blood and water): page 94 of 94 <br />
<br />
*book 3 (promise): page 10 of 90<br />
<br />
*book 4: page 0 of 48<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFprp94.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Oni 2]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=20270Wasteland Flowers2012-10-06T17:12:15Z<p>Guido: /* Current progress */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
Project Resumed<br />
<br />
<br />
page count : 154<br />
<br />
*book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
(re-editing is ongoing)<br />
<br />
*book 2: page 88 of 90 <br />
<br />
*book 3: page 6 of 90<br />
<br />
*book 4:<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFprp94.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Oni 2]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=20269Wasteland Flowers2012-10-06T17:11:13Z<p>Guido: hm...</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
Project Resumed<br />
<br />
<br />
page count : 146<br />
<br />
*book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
(re-editing is ongoing)<br />
<br />
*book 2: page 88 of 90 <br />
<br />
*book 3: page 6 of 90<br />
<br />
*book 4<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFprp94.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Oni 2]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=File:Guido_-_WFprp94.jpg&diff=20268File:Guido - WFprp94.jpg2012-10-06T17:03:37Z<p>Guido: </p>
<hr />
<div></div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=19936Wasteland Flowers2012-06-05T08:07:38Z<p>Guido: </p>
<hr />
<div>PROJECT ABORTED<br />
<br />
<br />
http://art.ngfiles.com/images/24/flyingmonkeywarrior_ms-paint-angry-face.jpg<br />
<br />
Scrapping 2 complete books? What the f... Why?!<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Book 1 and 2 will definitively come out this year.<br />
<br />
But my life is a mess, and it's very unlikely that I'll be able to continue. (G)</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=19932Wasteland Flowers2012-06-04T10:10:15Z<p>Guido: project aborted</p>
<hr />
<div>PROJECT ABORTED</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=File:Guido_-_Experiment_2.jpg&diff=19509File:Guido - Experiment 2.jpg2012-03-28T07:06:36Z<p>Guido: </p>
<hr />
<div></div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=File:Guido_-_Experiment_1.jpg&diff=19508File:Guido - Experiment 1.jpg2012-03-27T22:32:10Z<p>Guido: Just a request from the community.</p>
<hr />
<div>Just a request from the community.</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=19278Wasteland Flowers2011-12-30T16:52:43Z<p>Guido: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
;Shrike: "Scan the kid."<br />
<br />
;Guard: <br />
:"She's in here. Wasteland rat. Chloe... last name unknown. "<br />
<br />
;Konoko: <br />
:"Kerr. It's Kerr."<br />
<br />
;Guard: <br />
:"Lucky kid."<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
page count : 146<br />
<br />
*book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
<br />
*book 2: page 86 of 86 <br />
<br />
*book 3: page ?? of ??<br />
<br />
<br />
(next update: spring 2012)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Oni 2]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=19277Wasteland Flowers2011-12-30T16:52:00Z<p>Guido: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
;Shrike: "Scan the kid."<br />
<br />
;Guard: <br />
:"She's in here. Wasteland rat. Chloe... last name unknown. "<br />
<br />
;Konoko: <br />
:"Kerr. It's Kerr."<br />
<br />
;Guard: <br />
:"Lucky kid."<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
page count : 90<br />
<br />
*book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
<br />
*book 2: page 86 of 86 <br />
<br />
*book 3: page ?? of ??<br />
<br />
<br />
(next update: spring 2012)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Oni 2]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=17912Wasteland Flowers2011-05-04T22:07:30Z<p>Guido: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
;Shrike: "Scan the kid."<br />
<br />
;Guard: <br />
:"She's in here. Wasteland rat. Chloe... last name unknown. "<br />
<br />
;Konoko: <br />
:"Kerr. It's Kerr."<br />
<br />
;Guard: <br />
:"Lucky kid."<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
page count : 90<br />
<br />
*book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
<br />
*book 2: page 30 of ?? <br />
<br />
*book 3: page ?? of ??<br />
<br />
*Spoilers: ([http://DreamMaze.deviantart.com/art/Wasteland-Flowers-pp-62-63-129209254 pp.62-63], [http://DreamMaze.deviantart.com/art/Wasteland-Flowers-pp-64-65-129209408 pp.64-65])<br />
<br />
(next update: june 2011)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDOwf.page84.jpg]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Oni 2]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=File:Guido_-_Brother_%26_Sister.jpg&diff=17911File:Guido - Brother & Sister.jpg2011-05-04T22:02:01Z<p>Guido: Pencil sketch. But at least here you can see how muro will look like in Wasteland Flowers.</p>
<hr />
<div>Pencil sketch. But at least here you can see how muro will look like in Wasteland Flowers.</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=File:Guido_-_wf.page84.jpg&diff=17910File:Guido - wf.page84.jpg2011-05-04T21:58:07Z<p>Guido: page 84</p>
<hr />
<div>page 84</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=17373Wasteland Flowers2010-08-15T18:28:30Z<p>Guido: hmmm</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
;Shrike: "Scan the kid."<br />
<br />
;Guard: <br />
:"She's in here. Wasteland rat. Chloe... last name unknown. "<br />
<br />
;Konoko: <br />
:"Kerr. It's Kerr."<br />
<br />
;Guard: <br />
:"Lucky kid."<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
page count : 90<br />
<br />
*book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
<br />
*book 2: page 30 of ?? <br />
<br />
*book 3: page ?? of ??<br />
<br />
*Spoilers: ([http://DreamMaze.deviantart.com/art/Wasteland-Flowers-pp-62-63-129209254 pp.62-63], [http://DreamMaze.deviantart.com/art/Wasteland-Flowers-pp-64-65-129209408 pp.64-65], [http://DreamMaze.deviantart.com/art/wasteland-Flowers-pp-66-67-129209582 pp.66-67], [http://DreamMaze.deviantart.com/art/wasteland-Flowers-pp-68-69-129209890 pp.68-69])<br />
<br />
(last update: Jul 12)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste02.jpg]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Oni 2]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=14986Wasteland Flowers2009-07-12T20:24:28Z<p>Guido: /* Current progress */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
page count : 60<br />
<br />
book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
<br />
book 2: page ?? of 51 <br />
<br />
*Spoilers: ([http://DreamMaze.deviantart.com/art/Wasteland-Flowers-pp-62-63-129209254 pp.62-63], [http://DreamMaze.deviantart.com/art/Wasteland-Flowers-pp-64-65-129209408 pp.64-65], [http://DreamMaze.deviantart.com/art/wasteland-Flowers-pp-66-67-129209582 pp.66-67], [http://DreamMaze.deviantart.com/art/wasteland-Flowers-pp-68-69-129209890 pp.68-69])<br />
<br />
(last update: Jul 12)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste02.jpg]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=14985Wasteland Flowers2009-07-12T20:22:36Z<p>Guido: /* Current progress */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
page count : 60<br />
<br />
book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
<br />
book 2: page ?? of 51 <br />
<br />
*Spoilers: ([http://DreamMaze.deviantart.com/art/Wasteland-Flowers-pp-62-63-1292092540 pp.62-63], [http://DreamMaze.deviantart.com/art/Wasteland-Flowers-pp-64-65-129209408 pp.64-65], [http://DreamMaze.deviantart.com/art/wasteland-Flowers-pp-66-67-129209582 pp.66-67], [http://DreamMaze.deviantart.com/art/wasteland-Flowers-pp-68-69-129209890 pp.68-69])<br />
<br />
(last update: Jul 12)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste02.jpg]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=14027Wasteland Flowers2009-01-11T19:59:00Z<p>Guido: /* Current progress */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
page count : 60<br />
<br />
book 1: page 60 of 60<br />
<br />
book 2: page 6 of 51<br />
<br />
(last update: Jan 11)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste02.jpg]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=14026Wasteland Flowers2009-01-11T19:58:32Z<p>Guido: /* Current progress */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
page count : 60<br />
<br />
book 1: complete<br />
<br />
book 2: page 6 of 51<br />
<br />
(last update: Jan 11)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste02.jpg]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=14007Wasteland Flowers2009-01-04T09:49:16Z<p>Guido: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
<br />
page count : 60<br />
<br />
book 1: complete<br />
<br />
book 2: starting write-ups...<br />
<br />
(last update: Jan 4)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste02.jpg]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=14006Wasteland Flowers2009-01-04T09:48:38Z<p>Guido: reporting progress</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
page count : 60<br />
book 1: complete<br />
book 2: starting write-ups...<br />
(last update: Jan 4)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste02.jpg]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=13960Wasteland Flowers2008-12-28T22:16:35Z<p>Guido: wf now on page 57</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
page count : 57 of 111<br />
<br />
(last update: Dec 28)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste02.jpg]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=User:Guido&diff=13880User:Guido2008-12-12T23:31:18Z<p>Guido: ...hm</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_rendezvous.jpg]]<br />
<br />
guido.oni2.net is under construction...<br />
===About===<br />
Guido is a person born and living in Milan, a major city in Italy. He works as urban planner and he's got an online [http://dreammaze.deviantart.com gallery] filled with art. <br />
<br />
Guido loves stories, damn well crafted stories, but most of all, he loves translating them in pictures. <br />
<br />
He is still doing secret stuff for Oni with Seventeen Seconds.<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
===Storytelling experiments===<br />
<br />
[[User:Guido/Wishlist|Wishlist]] (trial scenes for "Oni 2")<br />
#[[User:Guido/Wishlist/Part 1|Avatar and Konoko]]<br />
#[[User:Guido/Wishlist/Part 2|Oldman, Konoko and SmallGirl]]<br />
#[[User:Guido/Wishlist/Part 3|Mushroom Drunkyard]]<br />
#[[User:Guido/Wishlist/Part 4|Show me the way to NeoTokyo]]<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
Image:GUIDO_wishlist.jpg|An early version of the plot breakdown<br />
</gallery><br />
----<br />
====Guido's Junkyard====<br />
<gallery><br />
Image:mukade00.jpg|HIM (rough sketch)<br />
Image:kon00.jpg|Mai (polished sketch)<br />
Image:KarateKon(wiki).jpg|KarateKon<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==Konoko's face==<br />
Quick sketches<br />
<gallery><br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_1.jpg|one<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_2.jpg|two<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_3.jpg|three<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_4.jpg|four<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_5.jpg|five<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_6.jpg|six<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_7.jpg|seven<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_8.jpg|seven<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_9.jpg|seven<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_10.jpg|seven<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_11.jpg|seven<br />
</gallery></div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=File:Guido_-_Karate_Konoko.jpg&diff=13879File:Guido - Karate Konoko.jpg2008-12-12T23:28:42Z<p>Guido: I had to do this one!</p>
<hr />
<div>I had to do this one!</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=User:Guido&diff=13695User:Guido2008-12-05T22:03:47Z<p>Guido: just minor fixes</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:GUIDO_rendezvous.jpg]]<br />
<br />
guido.oni2.net is under construction...<br />
===About===<br />
Guido is a person born and living in Milan, a major city in Italy. He works as urban planner and he's got an online [http://dreammaze.deviantart.com gallery] filled with art. <br />
<br />
Guido loves stories, damn well crafted stories, but most of all, he loves translating them in pictures. <br />
<br />
He is still doing secret stuff for Oni with Seventeen Seconds.<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
===Storytelling experiments===<br />
<br />
[[User:Guido/Wishlist|Wishlist]] (trial scenes for "Oni 2")<br />
#[[User:Guido/Wishlist/Part 1|Avatar and Konoko]]<br />
#[[User:Guido/Wishlist/Part 2|Oldman, Konoko and SmallGirl]]<br />
#[[User:Guido/Wishlist/Part 3|Mushroom Drunkyard]]<br />
#[[User:Guido/Wishlist/Part 4|Show me the way to NeoTokyo]]<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
Image:GUIDO_wishlist.jpg|An early version of the plot breakdown<br />
</gallery><br />
----<br />
====Guido's Junkyard====<br />
<gallery><br />
Image:mukade00.jpg|HIM (rough sketch)<br />
Image:kon00.jpg|Mai (polished sketch)<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==Konoko's face==<br />
Quick sketches<br />
<gallery><br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_1.jpg|one<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_2.jpg|two<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_3.jpg|three<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_4.jpg|four<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_5.jpg|five<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_6.jpg|six<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_7.jpg|seven<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_8.jpg|seven<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_9.jpg|seven<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_10.jpg|seven<br />
Image:GUIDO_Kon_face_11.jpg|seven<br />
</gallery></div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=13029Talk:Main Page2008-10-27T17:51:14Z<p>Guido: break</p>
<hr />
<div>__TOC__<br />
==Diversification of Names==<br />
The list under Names includes varying entities. The Imago suggests splitting into: Characters, Groups, and Objects, allowing Added Value a separate listing. So proposes the Imago. [[User:Imago|Imago]] 04:31, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:I liked your idea, and have implemented it with a couple changes: the [[Names]] page wasn't worth breaking up into even smaller pages for Characters, Groups, and Objects, and we wouldn't have multiple links on the Main page all going to one other page, so I simply changed the wording of the link on the Main page to be more descriptive.<br />
:I did add a link to Added value, which indeed, should have been there all along. I'm just not sure what to do with the Trivia. Does that belong in Added value? I wonder what geyser's thoughts on that are. Was the [[Trivia]] page always going to be its own thing? Is "added value" supposed to refer only to further thoughts on Oni, which would rule out the Trivia page? Or should Trivia just be rolled into the other pages? I think at least some of it is totally redundant. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:32, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==Standerds==<br />
:Mayhap we should set some standerds for article creation/modification. For one, NO m-rated language.[[User:The Deadly Brain|The Deadly Brain]] 19:18, 25 May 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:I beg to disagree. Clean language is not an option.<br />
:The best we can do is blank out certain characters.<br />
:So I hope you're all right with s##t and f##k etc.<br />
:Peace<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:16, 25 May 2007 (CEST)<br />
:In any case, such a rule would have to be motivated.<br />
:Are ''you'' offended, or do you want to protect others?<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:16, 25 May 2007 (CEST)<br />
:BTW, there ''are'' stand'''a'''rds in terms of spelling ^^<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:16, 25 May 2007 (CEST)<br />
:I know for a fact children younger then ten visit this site.<br />
::[[User:The Deadly Brain|The Deadly Brain]] 23:22, 25 May 2007 (CEST)<br />
:#Do you mean from {{OCF}}? (we're not indexed on Google yet)<br />
:#All clear. But it's as I said. "Bleeping" at most.<br />
:You can be the bleeper-in-chief if you want ^^<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:59, 26 May 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
==Expansion==<br />
it could use a bit of enlarging... and detailing... this site ain't a direct-copy of the game (even though it might seem so ;P), so... :)<br />
[[User:EgonFreeman|EgonFreeman]] 1:33, 9 Jun 2006 (CEST)<br />
:Well, feel free to contribute... that's how it works. All the detailing and enlarging is done by me ATM, but it's not supposed to stay that way...<br />
:I know there are things like chapter summaries and character profiles missing, but... there are other priorities, including Oni-related ones :)<br />
:I may be trimming the Main Page soon (it's a bit confusing at the moment). More images, less text. Links to namespaces and such.<br />
:[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 02:30, 14 Jun 2006 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==Proposal for New Main Page ([[User:Iritscen/MainPageProposal]])==<br />
:Sorry, geyser, I should have discussed it first, but I thought, it's better to show than to tell, and if you didn't like it, you could revert... also, I copied because I didn't want to make you move things back if you wanted to revert (and because some things were getting moved to separate pages, not just moved together)...<br />
:anyway, it sounds like you prefer the main items to be the only items on the front page, and each links to its own page, right? "Making of", "Basic", etc. are the only level that shows here. Is that right?<br />
::[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:27, 16 January 2008 (CET)<br />
#You could totally have "shown" here in the talk page, or (better) in your user namespace, with only a link to that new page design here, like: [[User:Iritscen/Main Page]]<br />
#That's right. The main page should be a "portal to portals" with most of the details moved to those other portals. What we have now is something resembling a "site map".<br />
:We'll see about reverting. The wiki is important, but I will sorta have to focus on modding this week, so I'm not sure I'll have the right inspiration to help you guys.<br />
:As for the splitting stuff off to separate pages, please let's not have too much of that. Mini-pages actually make the wiki harder to browse and more annoying to read.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:40, 16 January 2008 (CET)<br />
Okay, what if the main page looks as it does now (but maybe a nicer arrangement of the titles), and then each of those links to some fairly large pages -- no mini-pages. If you don't like that, I will revert to original Main Page and go do something with the Images section... future changes will indeed be previewed in my namespace. Sorry, I forgot my wiki etiquette. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:47, 16 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
@Iritscen: That sucks. Would you please change that back and use a playground first as geyser had suggested it above? [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 18:21, 16 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
:Well, since you asked nicely, sure, I'll do that. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:22, 16 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
Thank you. (Wow, now that was really a fast response. :-) I've nothing against a new main page, but it's not a good choice to replace a full working site with an "under construction" one. [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 18:38, 16 January 2008 (CET)<br />
:You're right, I was expecting a quick reply from geyser, but it seems he's moved on to something else. When he responded I was going to start fixing things up. You just happened to come along in the meantime. As he's pointed out, I should be doing things like that in my namespace; see User:Iritscen/MainPageProposal from now on.<br />
:Anyway, we should still get a sense of what kind of page people want. A very simple one with groups like "Making Of", "Basic Info", etc., or can we have subgroups like in the Proposal? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:55, 16 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
Oh... I'm sorry. Didn't know that it was already in work. However, your new main page looks good. IMO you can replace the main page.<br />
<br />
One suggestion: Add an equals sign to every group and subgroup. F.e.: <nowiki>=Help= to ==Help==</nowiki>. IMO it looks better, because the page has not so much dividing lines. [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 11:20, 17 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
:Okay, I did that, and agree it looks better. But Ssg, geyser does not agree that the page should be so long, which is why I want to arrive at a consensus before replacing what's on the Main Page. I think the page can be that long, but maybe he thinks it's unwieldy or intimidating.<br />
<br />
:Also, I am trying to add this code at the top of the page:<br />
<br />
:<nowiki><center><div style="font-size=162%;">Welcome to OniGalore, the wiki for all things Oni.</div><br />
:[[Special:Statistics|{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}]] articles in total</center></nowiki><br />
<br />
:Two problems: 1. It does not change the font-size! and 2. The article count looks wrong. Look at the statistics page. There's a bajillion pages and it says only 90 are probably "real content". Is that true? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:14, 17 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
Replace the equals sign between "font-size" and "162%" with a colon:<br />
<br />
<center><div style="font-size:162%;">Welcome to OniGalore, the wiki for all things Oni.</div><br />
:[[Special:Statistics|{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}]] articles in total</center><br />
<br />
The "90 articles" is right, I guess. IMO Wiki takes a namepsace as one article. So f.e. the whole OBD sites are only one article. Well, that's what I think. I've no idea, if that's right or not.<br />
<br />
I like the long main page, because it contains all information I need. I don't have to search for something and I don't have to guess where something could be located. Nevertheless, to shorten it I would move the external links to a seperate site, because that's a topic that can run up to a lot of entries. The link to the "External Links" can be placed in the "Further Content" section. [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 18:57, 17 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
:THANK YOU. That was driving me crazy; I think our wiki's syntax is a little different from Wikipedia, or else I'm just confused. But the tags work now, and that's what matters. I agree with your input on the External Links (it's not really appropriate to have external links on a wiki's front page, now that I think about it), and am adjusting accordingly. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:45, 17 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
::It is probably because wikipedia is updated :P...OniWiki is ollllddd [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]<br />
<br />
==Vote for New Main Page==<br />
Please add your opinion below. All in favor of the page at [[User:Iritscen/MainPageProposal]] write '''For''' and optionally give a comment. Otherwise write '''Against''' and please explain why. Remember to sign! We need to get this matter settled so I can move on to other things on the wiki and stop glancing at the talk page looking for changes.<br />
<br />
'''For'''. But I ''am'' a biased party :-3 --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:15, 28 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
'''For'''. The new page is hawt [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 08:42, 30 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
'''For'''. I like it :) [[User:Tyr|Tyr]] 16:57, 30 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
'''Err'''. How is it different from the old one? [[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:26, 31 January 2008 (CET)<br />
::Stuff got moved around, and a new intro, methinks<br />
::http://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=User%3AIritscen%2FMainPageProposal&diff=7480&oldid=7479 if it helps :P [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 20:03, 1 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
'''For'''. Maybe we should move the "help" section to the 2nd or 4th position, so that the "basic content" is followed directly by the "further content". That makes more sense, IMO. [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 14:37, 2 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
;Kkk.<br />
:K guys, looks like long silences attract spam. What do you think about a 3-column layout such as [[User:Geyser/Main|THIS]]?<br />
:Of course, you could add items to every list, but I'd rather keep them short and redirecting elsewhere.<br />
:If I don't have a reply by the end of the weekend, I'll make [[User:Geyser/Main|this]] the new main page, fa fa fa fa fa! ^_^<br />
:The old one (or maybe Iritscen's revisited version) will be moved to "Main Page/Site map" or something.<br />
<br />
'''Mmh'''... not bad either. If we use this, you should add a "valign=top" so that the entries of the last row are always on top. [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 19:07, 2 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
;Hmm...<br />
:Added the valign thing. Needless to say, you're welcome to fancify the colors, reshuffle the lists etc... at any time.<br />
:That page also relies on 4 pages that don't exist yet: "ONi", "ONi for fans", "ONi for players" and "ONi for modders"...<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:32, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
;Oh...<br />
:Oh indeed. As for that spam we're getting, it's not clear whom we owe this new source of comfort.<br />
:We were never indexed on Google, so it must be a problem of linking here from one place too many.<br />
:Did someone add a link to the wiki from a site hosted on a public server, or something like that?<br />
:Interestingly, the IPs are very specific, with a single set of spam per IP. That's a "good " thing.<br />
:If we keep getting more of that, we will probably restrict editing access to registered users.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:32, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:OK, who do we know in Odessa, Ukraine? ^_^<br />
<br />
I've added a lot of [[links]]. [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 01:08, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
Why not to [[OniGalore:Community_Portal]]? [[User:Geyser|geyser]] 01:44, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
Oh... forgot about this site. (There is no link to it on the main page.) Sorry. Nonetheless, I prefer the name "links". So I would suggest to close the "community_portal" page and use the "links" page.<br />
*To your main page proposal: Why are the entries of the 1st and 2nd rows links? ("ONi", "ONi for fans", "ONi for players" and "ONi for modders") Do we need these? What's your idea for the content of these?<br />
*To the colouring offer: Believe it or not, but the colour you've chosen looks good to me. :-) [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 15:02, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
;Crap.<br />
:It's getting flooded in here. Will definitely clean this up after setting up the new Main Page layout.<br />
:There are nice links to "Community portal" and "Current events" in the wiki's main navigation box...<br />
:These pages are there by default, which is why I'm using them rather than pages called "Links" etc.<br />
:So, closing [[OniGalore:Community_Portal]] is not an option, but we can make [[Links]] redirect there.<br />
:I strongly object to an "exhaustive" collection of links (the "links to programs", for example)...<br />
:Such lists are useless to newcomers, and only serve as bookmarks to people who know where to look.<br />
:If a program is worth linking to, develop on it, either on its own page, or in [[Programs]] or such.<br />
*"ONi" and the other three are supposed to be portals in article form (with sentences and lists).<br />
:They would describe the main fields of interest and provide links to more detailed "articles".<br />
:Simply put, they are expanded, verbose versions of the mini-lists in the Main Page portal.<br />
*Heh, I'm just using [[Template:Table]], so the color is yours. I thought of livening it up.<br />
:(you know, with different colors for the columns, a background picture, some mini-thumbs)<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:10, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
----<br />
;To a public server?<br />
:Could be almost every fan site which isn't on oni2.net. (Links which I set to the wiki: a more or less dead webspace*, a private wiki*, a privat forum**). Or do you mean link from a public server? Maybe it works that way too. (I've a link on animexx.onlinewelten.com** to my oni2.net webspace which is linked to the OG.)<br />
:<nowiki>*</nowiki> - not indexed by google<br><nowiki>**</nowiki> - indexed by google, but restricted area excluded for logged in members<br />
:However, it seems like a silly bot which attacks only the "Talk:Main Page". So why not set it under protection?<br />
::[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 14:46, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:Yes, I meant "from" (sorry about the "typo").<br />
:I enabled protection for this page.<br />
:You have to log in to edit it now.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:58, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
;For/against...<br />
:Well, I think both pages are better than the old. But I trend to geyser's because it's more compact.<br />
::[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 14:46, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
----<br />
===Vote Canceled===<br />
:At the risk of sounding bitchy... you guys really got off track here. You're talking about spam (where?), and portals, and forgetting to sign so I have no idea who's saying what. Now geyser has introduced a new main page in the middle of the vote, so the vote has been totally derailed. This means everyone's vote is now obsolete, because it may or may not have been made after seeing geyser's new page. *sigh* If we're going to try this democratic thing properly, we need everyone to please vote again in the next section. It's not my fault. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:44, 4 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
:I'm sorry I spoiled your vote (perhaps intentionally: I'm a dictator after all, albeit an enlightened one). Note, however, that every single person either signed or logged in.<br />
:You could thus always get an idea of who's talking, with a quick look at the history. BTW, the recent spam would also appear there, as it was plaguing this very page.<br />
:You shouldn't overestimate the democratic aspects of wikis. Just because Wikipedia does things a certain way doesn't mean we should mimic them: not at all...<br />
:All those encyclopedic standards, for example, are completely irrelevant to a project wiki, which should just be decently informative to its supposed visitors, period.<br />
:I also think it's quite appropriate not to enforce scholarly objectivity in the articles. As long as "personal essays" and occasional wacky stuff do their job, let them be.<br />
:Bring in organization if you like, but spare us the tedious bits. In other words: take the "fun" out of "functionality", and I might buy myself some extra guts, my [[friend]] ^_^<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 23:09, 4 February 2008 (CET)<br><br />
::Perhaps you noticed my bringing in a template, huh? :-) Don't worry, I am not going to be a wiki-Nazi who insists on WP-style writing everywhere. I am all for some whimsicality in this wiki. But at the start, it seems to me that the wiki was basically your baby, and while I don't want to take it away from you (not that I could, Mr. Admin!), if we don't open it up for others to contribute, it can't represent the community as a whole. But if an article is written in 1st person, then it naturally makes anyone else hesitant to touch it, so they can't contribute. That was the purpose behind the template.<br />
::I'm sure you won't mind others taking some of the burden off your shoulders and helping you finish up the wiki; I just want to assure you that that's really my only goal in everything I do here. I also don't intend to put every single thing up to a vote; it's just that the Main Page is an important matter and I think we need input on what design would be most user-friendly. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:28, 5 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
==2nd Vote For New Main Page==<br />
Please vote for the old (current) [[Main_Page]], or for my [[User:Iritscen/MainPageProposal|proposal]], or for geyser's [[User:Geyser/Main|proposal]]. I guess it will save time to just say '''OP''' for the original (current) page, '''IP''' for Iritscen's Page, or '''GP''' for Geyser's Page. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:44, 4 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
;IP.<br />
:I do appreciate geyser's new page, but I think the formatting is not really proper wiki-style. True, it's our wiki and it can look however we want it to. I just prefer a vertical layout to a horizontal layout. Also, the comments on each item in GP are a bit untidy and make it look cluttered because they broaden the overall table.<br />
::[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:44, 4 February 2008 (CET)<br />
;GP.<br />
:(I don't think either Iritscen or I are in a position to vote, but his critique deserves a response)<br />
:No comment on your preferences, but IMO a home page should offer an overview within a page or two.<br />
:Optimally, the user doesn't need to scroll at all to start navigating (more or less my suggestion).<br />
:As for "proper wiki-style", you should have a 2nd look at Main Pages elsewhere... anywhere.<br />
:They are typically very small: either tight paragraphs or tables, directing to only a few pages.<br />
:Finally, my table spans the whole page: the comments wrap around instead of "broadening it up".<br />
:Also note that the comments don't wrap at all unless your horizontal resolution is 800 or lower.<br />
:I wouldn't say the table looks cluttered on a 1024x768 monitor, which is quite something.<br />
:If by "untidy" you meant the wacky randomness of some comments, it's an intended feature.<br />
:Of course I can't claim to be a master of silly jokes à la Bungie (nor do I want to).<br />
:But the wiki can be made more appealing/intriguing if it's spiced up by such things.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 23:26, 4 February 2008 (CET)<br />
::I'm not going to keep critiquing your page and start sounding like a politician doing attack ads; the vote isn't up to us, anyway; but just to be clear, you are right that your table is wiki-like. But the advantage of my vertical approach is that the Table of Contents is used to jump to wherever you want. You also don't have to categorize yourself first when trying to find a link ("Am I a fan, a player, or a modder?"). You just look for the subject you want to read about in the TOC and click it.<br />
::And it's okay to be a little silly, but the comments in parentheses are basically explaining what each link is, which looks like clutter to me. If the links are not explanatory enough for a newbie, than you and I are doing something wrong and the links/pages need to be named better. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:42, 5 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
;?P.<br />
:Ooh... I can't decide. Both are good. Seems that we have to wait for some more opinions...<br />
::[[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 12:34, 5 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
===Vote Canceled===<br />
Okay, let's forget this whole thing ever happened. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:30, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
==Beyond the vote==<br />
:@geyser: The table doesn't look good in 1440x900. I suggest either to put the table into another table or to put the content of the last row into separate tables and center these. Also I don't like the look of the part above the table (introduction, welcome pic). That should be polished somehow.<br />
::[[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 12:34, 5 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:As for both layouts being good, my suggestion was to keep them both. Iritscen's can go either below the table or on a separate page (like a site map).<br />
:As for the looks in 1440x900, I'm not sure what you mean. If you object to the lists being flushed left in wide table columns, then I kinda disagree.<br />
:If you embed the lists into centered sub-tables, the width of those will depend on the content, so it will be different for the three columns. Ugly.<br />
:IMO, left-aligned lists are OK and anything else will look worse. Might be wrong. Anyway, you are free to polish anything you feel like polishing.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:39, 5 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
My vote goes neither to Geyser's nor to Iritscen's proposal. What we have here is not a choice between two alternatives. We rather need a blending of both.<br />
Iritscen organized the main topics way better than Geyser. However Geyser's layout is absolutely more user friendly... even a lazy person like me is allowed to spot everything that's worth of interest at a first glance. <br />
Somebody just grab Geyser's layout script, and figure out a way to put in the bottom table all the topics as Iriscen said. Also, Iritscen you may think of a better welcome message for the page header. The note about the search function is annoyingly obvious, just delete it. And remove that bloody drawing of mine! Bring back Lorraine's art or just leave no pictures, it will look fine as well.<br />
::[[User:Guido|guido]] 13.15, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:What do you mean by the "bottom table"? I'm curious.<br />
:"A better welcome message"... yeah, I ripped that thing off wholesale from Wikipedia, I'm not defending it. I'll see if I can think of something better.<br />
:"The note about the search function"... yeah, it's a little patronizing, I thought the same thing.<br />
:"Remove that bloody drawing of mine"... I really like it, but perhaps a piece of "canon" art is called for on the Main Page. I'll browse through our Images gallery for something of Lorraine's.<br />
::[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:21, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:Guido and ssg both have really weird ways to refer to those three lists: "bottom table", "last row"... for sake's sake, it's the actual table, guys!<br />
:Welcome messages are hard to get right, which is why no one seems willing to take the responsibility of actually sitting down and writing them. ^_^<br />
:I know for a fact that many people are unaware/oblivious of the direct-hit a.k.a. "Go" feature. I explained that in some more detail. Enjoy.<br />
:Guido, your drawing is staying. It's up to you to remove or replace it, but as far as I'm concerned I'd only take the thumb-frame away.<br />
:Apart from being just plain nice, it makes us stand apart from all those who don't know better than to recycle Lorraine's art forever.<br />
:BTW, the opportunity to liven up the wiki with contextual illustrations still holds. Help yourself to the image gallery, everybody.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:18, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:About the comments in brackets. When they are humorous rather than informative, and don't contain hyperlinks, we can replace them with hoverboxes, like this: [[Iron Demon|<span title="IT'S... ALIIIVE!!!">Iron Demon</span>]]<br />
:There are plenty of other ways to improve "my" table, but I woundn't cram all of Iritscen's "site map" into it because: 1) it will never encompass the variety of the wiki's content; 2) in the attempt to do so, it will grow larger and larger, so that "even a lazy person like [Guido] is able to spot everything that's worth of interest at a first glance" will no longer be true.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:18, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
::Okay, I will implement the hover boxes. That seems like a good compromise. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:11, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:::Hoverboxes added. I also removed some lower levels of hierarchy (or should I say arboresence?) in the Main Page because that kind of detail is unnecessary (that's what my Main Page, er, Site Map is for!) --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:32, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
==On The New Main Page==<br />
Well, this is it. We've just witnessed a mental breakdown. Someone call the men in white coats for geyser. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:43, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:Also, am I the only one who has a big problem with "ONi"? I suppose if I weren't lazy I would change it to "Oni" myself and get in a revert war with geyser, but instead I'm being diplomatic by asking for other people's opinions. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:27, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
::And so it begins...luckily for me, I won't have access to the forum for a few days. geyser, I apologize, but I am hardheaded :P[[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 20:02, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
That chibi Shinatama is cute. Just wanted to say that. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:14, 12 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
Okay, here's a more constructive comment. I propose that we (by which I mean geyser, since he's the expert in tables) make a second table below "Oni" for "After Oni..." where we can put the items in See Also. It seems disorganized to have a little section like that after a big table. The second table could bring those items out in more detail (specifically, breaking out "Oni 2" to be a little more specific). Just an idea. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:25, 12 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
:Well, as far as I'm concerned, the Main Page is functional enough as it is<br />
:(however, I still can't forgive how you replaced Upgrades with Daodan DLL).<br />
:If you think about "Oni 2" in terms of "added value", it is not "after" Oni.<br />
:And the projects under "See also" are really miscellaneous curiosities ATM.<br />
:When Konoko Payne goes beyond the proof-of-concept stage, I'll reconsider.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 23:00, 25 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
==Chibi Image==<br />
<br />
Why is it all pink when I see it on the main page, but all colorful when I click on the image?<br />
:--Gumby<br />
:Me too. Gumby, what browser you're using. I've mozilla firefox.<br />
:Same effect for an image by Iritscen. Please check [http://wiki.oni2.net/Image:PKV_01_-_Front-On_Konoko_%28F-PS%29.png THIS] and confirm the error.<br />
::--[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 21:15, 25 February 2008 (CET)<br />
Being colorblind, it's hard for me to see that Shinatama is "all pink" on the main page, but she doesn't look nearly as good as on the image page: [[Image:Chibi_Shinatama_Final_by_RedDog.png]].<br> Even aside from the color thing, she might need to be sized down in a proper graphics app like Photoshop rather than leaving the scaling to the wiki. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:38, 25 February 2008 (CET)<br />
::Perfect, Gumby! Nicely fixed. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:40, 25 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:It is ''not'' a perfect fix, it's a dirty hack around a flaw in the outdated MediaWiki engine.<br />
:I asked Alloc to update the engine and I'd rather if you had some patience until he does so.<br />
:Sigh. I'll leave the resized PNG for now, but eventually I'll revert to the one I uploaded.<br />
:Wikipedia scales PNG nicely, so there's no reason why our wiki shouldn't. Just be patient.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 23:00, 25 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:"dirty hack"? Pshaw, that took a lot of work...like...copying the image...and uploading the image :P I understand the want for the PNG to work properly though. I once asked Alloc about the wiki's age and there was some reason he didn't want to upgrade it...probably too much work...xD. I wanted to have support for lowercase titles, but the wiki is too old :P. And, I use IE7 at school. Let me check using Opera (Wii browser) for the glitch...<br />
::[[User:Gumby|Gumby]]<br />
:I have Opera, and the glitch is there. Moreover, you have to realize that the scaling glitch is server-side.<br />
:It's the wiki's engine that generates the scaled versions of the images, when processing wiki text into HTML.<br />
:It's those automatically generated images that are wrong, and they'll be wrong no matter what the browser...<br />
:Upgrading the wiki means quite a lot of work for the admin, and a downtime, too. Dunno when that'll happen.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:06, 27 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:Yeah, I know, it doesn't hurt to check though...:D<br />
::[[User:Gumby|Gumby]]<br />
==Talking Heads Xplode==<br />
:The wiki now scales PNG properly, however previously generated thumbs may need to be purged (the easiest way is to reupload the image).<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 12:45, 2 June 2008 (CEST)<br />
:Now that the PNG scaling problem is fixed we can re-upload all of the talking head images as PNG right? The JPEG artifacts look really bad, especially when scaled. I'd be glad to help.<br />
::[[User:RossyMiles|rossy]] 11:46, 3 June 2008 (CEST)<br />
:Great. Let us know if you have problems exporting them from Oni. As for the naming convention, please use [[:Image:TXMPSHINlistening.png]] etc. It's also best to add the category tags <nowiki>[[Category:Portraits]][[Category:In-game art]]</nowiki> to the upload summary. After you're done, we'll delete "Images/In-Game/Talking_Heads".<br />
:Maybe "Portraits" (or "Small portraits") is not the best pick, but "Talking heads" is pretty bad as well. Oni calls them "cinematics", even more counter-intuitively. They're "insets" and "popups" (or "fly-ins") to me, so maybe the least confusing category would be something like "Cutscene pop-ups" or "Inset portraits".<br />
:If we don't want to stress the function of those images in Oni, then "Small portraits" is probably good enough. If we want to stress that they're backing up the voice-overs, maybe I'd use "Voice-over art" ([[Voice actors|deliberately confusing]], sorta).<br />
:Off topic: I didn't bother to give you feedback on your user page, since you apparently got in touch with SFeLi. As for Daodan discussion, you've probably spotted [[Daodan DLL]] by now.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST)<br />
==Welcome statements==<br />
:I removed this from the top of the Main Page because I thought it was redundant, feel free to reinject it in the main text somehow.<br />
<center>''This wiki is a community-wide effort. If you're a new or returning Oni fan, perhaps you can take the time to [[Current events#To-Do|contribute]] towards making this wiki more complete.''</center><br />
:Whatever you do, make sure that Shinatama doesn't interfere with the table on 1600x#### or wider. Move the haiku around if you have to.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 12:45, 2 June 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==Main Page Image==<br />
Does anyone know how to randomize in the wiki parser language? Or else how to get the current date? I'd like to switch up the image on the right of the Main Page from time to time. It's very nice, but it's also very very cute, and Oni is not accurately summed up by Chibi Shinatama. We should at least put in a darker image from time to time, and vary the subject (Mukade, Konoko, Griffin, etc.). But I don't want to have to change the image manually. If we can set up a template that looks at, say, the day of the week, or picks a random number, we can have the image change itself from a pool of candidate images that we would set up. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:09, 1 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
:1) Let's have a look at the pool, first; 2) It's less procrastinatory to do it manually, really; 3) Actually, pretty much anything is less procrastinatory than this ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:19, 1 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
::1. I don't have a pool, I just had a thought and then posted it. But the pool would be mostly Guido stuff, certainly. Not fan art in general. No more than seven handpicked images, cream of the crop and all that.<br />
::2. Yes and no. Who feels like changing the page every week or whatever? I don't. Plus that generates unnecessary edits. I love automation, and getting technology to work for me, not the other way around.<br />
::3. We can afford to procrastinate this, it's hardly a big issue. Seriously, I just wanted to throw my thoughts out there, and see if anyone had an answer to my question(s) (I've done some research, but I haven't found anything). We'll get around to doing something when we get around to doing it. No rush (unlike the other umpteen things I am working on). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:27, 1 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::I see no image, and the haiku is smashed to the right, in a thin column. Making it only a simple poem :) [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 04:13, 3 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
::::Which image is up? Griffin's? It looks fine for me. Can you take a screenshot of the problem, please? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 13:50, 3 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::"Gumby: I see no image - Iritscen: Which image is up?" Duuuuuuuh, priceless.<br />
:::::"Griffin's?" Griffin's was yesterday. Today's treat is ominous ragged Konoko.<br />
:::::"It looks fine for me." Blame your browser's cache for showing you Griffin.<br />
::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:02, 3 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::::Well, bite me. I hit Refresh on the page and it still showed me Griffin. That seemed wrong, hence my question to Gumby as to who he was seeing. And now I Refreshed again and see scary smiling Konoko, but the haiku is still fine. Since I didn't change the layout of the page at all, only varied the image, I am justifiably confused about what problem Gumby could be having as long as he's not looking at my MainPageTest. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:48, 3 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::::Okay, looks like you did do something to fix it, I guess. I never saw the problem, so I don't know. But thanks, I suppose. God, you piss me off so much sometimes, though, geyser. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:51, 3 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
::::::::'''hence my question to Gumby as to who he was seeing''' he said "I see no image", re:duh... '''That seemed wrong'''... but you sounded like everything was "fine for you". '''looks like you did do something to fix it'''... yeah, turned out the fancy variable is zero-based. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:09, 3 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::::::'''reasons I'm an idiot'''... Damn. I need more sleep. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:26, 3 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==On The New New Main Page==<br />
Well, I don't understand why it has to be fiddled with. I strongly feel that two large blocks of tabled text such as we have now, preceded by technical mumbo-jumbo, are not more "inviting" than the light, airy feel we had with the previous introduction text. I thought we had finally reached a Good Place with the Main Page when I slimmed down your unnecessary explanations. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 04:04, 8 October 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:I plead guilty on the mumbo-jumbo: I thought of it as intriguing. It's a reference to Chung's datapad, the icon of which (OniGalore's old icon) is shown in the upper-right corner, and leads people straight to {{C|1}}. Somehow I've always wanted the main page to be somewhat fancy, with the welcome message set in some kind of atmosphere: in this case, Oni's cyberpunk in general and data terminals in particular. Maybe a screenshot of Konoko reading our welcome message from Chung's datapad would be more immersive. Or maybe it would suck.<br />
:As for my unnecessary explanations, I hoped they would encourage scripters from OCF to contribute to BSL documentation. If we think this isn't going to happen, then you can remove the whole NOTE ON THE "GO" FEATURE block (to the general public it may look like an insult to intelligence, yes). Keep the table, though, as it solves the overlap issue permanently; if you want airiness, you can have something like this (note I trimmed the first block significantly).<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 05:16, 8 October 2008 (CEST)<br />
{|width=100%<br />
|<br />
{|align=center<br />
|<br />
{|align=center<br />
{|align=center<br />
|<br />
Welcome to Oni Galore, a [[wikipedia:wiki|wiki]] dedicated to the video game '''[[Oni]]''' from [[Bungie West]] (PC/Mac/PS2, 2001/01).<br><br />
Below is a portal to the most popular/current/relevant resources. For the rest, there's search and [[wikipedia:serendipity|serendipity]]...<br><br />
For further information about the community, have a look at our [[OniGalore:Community Portal|community portal]] and at {{OCF}}.<br><br />
If you'd like to contribute to this wiki, check out the [[Current events]] as well as our [[Help:Contents|Help]] section. Enjoy your stay.<br />
|}<br />
|}<br />
|<br />
{|align=center<br />
|+'''''Friend or enemy,<br>thank you for your interest<br>in Oni Galore.<br />
|{{Dailyimage}}<br />
|}<br />
|}<br />
<br />
{{Table}}<br />
!TABLE<br />
|}<br />
<br />
<br />
It's quite helpful when you explain your thought processes like this, it allows me to find common ground. For instance, I think the idea of an "atmosphere" for the Main Page is an interesting one. I kind of feel like we could only achieve that with something more radically graphical and more unified. In other words, if this is ugly, which I think we all agree on:<br />
ENCRYPT SEQUENCE TmeC119-67<br />
Manifest 12A-694-v contains a number of fragile items. Note the follo....<br />
<TCTF UNIVERSAL DECRYPT RUNNING...DATA FOUND. DISPLAYING...><br />
<br />
Then this is less ugly, but still not pretty, and it's also distracting:<br><br />
ENCRYPT SEQUENCE TmeC119-67<br><br />
Manifest 12A-694-v contains a number of fragile items. Note the follo....<br><br />
<TCTF UNIVERSAL DECRYPT RUNNING...DATA FOUND. DISPLAYING...> <br />
<br />
This is more immersive:<br><br />
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t72/Iritscen/MPHeaderSample.jpg<br />
<br />
So, in other words, making some of the text into graphics allows us the freedom to use different fonts and more complex table-like structures (for instance, making the whole page feel like a datapad display; the above image doesn't really convey that, of course, it's just a quick and dirty sample). An overall structure would encompass the welcome text, the navigation table, and the picture of the day, all into one. Right now another problem on the Main Page is that there are two boxes and then a picture which feels tacked on to one side.<br />
<br />
So maybe we can try out some different designs and post mock-ups here of our ideas.<br />
<br />
As far as the Go/Search note, I just don't feel that the Main Page is a place to solicit editors to perform a certain task like setting up BSL redirects, even if they do kick butt. The thing is, I already tried to draw some people over to the wiki by posting on the forum a while back, and ultimately, even if it had a small effect, it wasn't much. I don't think we're ever going to see mass participation by community members in the wiki; it will probably always be more or less the ones who are already active (plus a few more if the community grows as we hopefully get more attention). And since you acknowledge that to readers of the wiki it is condscending to explain what "Go" and "Search" mean, I think we know what has to happen to that blurb.<br />
<br />
P.S.: How did you trim the first block that is posted above? It's identical to what's on the current Main Page.... --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:20, 8 October 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:"Making the whole page feel like a datapad display" is what I suggested up there. Text doesn't have to be photoshopped, because bold Arial or Tahoma already looks OK, and there are some more common font families we can use; so there can be graphics in the background, with typeset text on top of it. However, I don't feel we should spend too much time on designing something as fancy as [http://guido.oni2.net/index.%20guido.oni2.net.jpg this] or whatever could have been the new design of OniCentral. I actually planned a compact, datapad-like design for geyser.oni2.net at first, based on [http://www.issendai.com THIS] but with a black/blue theme similar to Oni's Load Game dialog. And I could port it here. But I doubt we can make such an "atmospheric" thing work well within an otherwise plain frame (the default layout of the wiki is black on white and it's not going anywhere). Screen width VS resolution of the immersive screenshot or artwork would be one issue, visual clash between the "welcome" and the table would be another, and with the picture of the day next to a graphically enhanced text, people won't know where to look first and what to look for, sorta. So probably it's better to stick with my "airy" suggestion up there. A minimal block of text, and the haiku/POTD as the only artful/atmospheric element. As for the block of text, it's the same as on the current Main Page, yes, but it's shorter and more tidy than the ''previous'' revision. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:13, 8 October 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Just to be clear, I was suggesting a look that would include the table at the bottom as well as the picture, in other words not looking strictly like the in-game datapad, but based on the look of Oni's interface and technology.<br />
::But as you said, it wouldn't jive with the overall plain "theme" of the Main Page, and in any case, it could be considered jarring to go from a fancy page like that to plain black on white everywhere else on the wiki. So I'm willing to let this idea go.<br />
::P.S.: Still meaning to write individual haiku for the PotDs, just haven't been in the poetic mood yet. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:17, 8 October 2008 (CEST)<br />
==Cherry picking==<br />
::<br />
:P.S: ... and what about replacing "serendipity" with "cherry picking"? I think it would be more intuitive. [User:Guido|Guido]] 10:00, 26 October 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, the meaning of "[[wikipedia:Cherry_picking|cherry picking]]" was ''really'' not intuitive to ''me'', so I had to look it up. And it's still not clear to me what exactly it means as applied to this wiki (biased sample? WTF?) or why it's more appropriate than "[[wikipedia:serendipity|serendipity]]". Eventually I meant to replace this with a link to the [[OniGalore_talk:General_disclaimer]], which would be a sort of condensed site map. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:10, 26 October 2008 (CET)<br />
:::It's true that I don't think "cherry picking" is the right phrase to replace "serendipity", but the more important question is what "serendipity" is supposed to mean in the first place. You should be aware that, as fond as you are of "serendipity", geyser, I can confidently say that a lot of native English speakers do not know its meaning, and those who do, like myself, are still at a loss as to what it means when used <u>here</u>. When I first saw that the word was a link, I assumed it would link to [[Special:Random]], not a dictionary definition of the word that still gives it no context....<br />
:::"'''a link to the [[OniGalore_talk:General_disclaimer]]'''" o.O ...Come again, geyser? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:57, 26 October 2008 (CET)<br />
:Clicking "Random page" has less to do with serendipity than following intrawiki links. The idea is that beyond a certain amount of cross-linking, the wiki virtually "navigates itself", and allows casual/curious readers to end up in unexpected places, through a set of more or less loose associations with what they were initially interested in. Maybe I'm the only one who reads wikis like this (starting with Wikipedia) and enjoys it... Anyway, "serendipity" in the context of our wiki (casual navigation powered by intralinks) is not meant to be self-explanatory right now. The actual thing that's supposed to be featured on the main page is the disclaimer: I used to link to it without the serendipity label, and I will re:link to it eventually, probably without calling it serendipity either. Thus thee serendipity thing is just a placeholder, or at least you can think of it that way. Of course, you can decide to kill that initiative (and delete the disclaimer while you're at it), but I wouldn't do that, or if I did, I'd expect unexpected retribution. My advice is to ignore everything you can ignore, and I'll do my best to ignore bureau-cats and other uncyclopedic spam that is only funny to certain people while on certain drugs --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:04, 26 October 2008 (CET)<br />
::<sigh>Because the Disclaimers page is ''so'' much funnier to ''such'' a larger audience :rolleyes:. The fact that you use the words "uncyclopedic spam" simply blows my mind when you were just talking about [[OniGalore:General disclaimer|this]] page in the same breath. Anyway, what I was trying to ask above was, How is the Disclaimers page in any way connected with your concept of browsing the wiki by serendipity? And don't get jumpy, I never said I was thinking of killing any initiative, I don't attack what I can't even begin to understand :-3. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 01:39, 27 October 2008 (CET)<br />
:::Quite simply, a list of ill side effects is a nice place to start browsing; every ill side effect linking to an article, ideally. Seen that way, the disclaimer has the potential of becoming a condensed site map (and I already told you that). Not in the present form, of course (remember that I was young and stupid when I stole SOW's disclaimer, so comparing your own silliness with it is not to your advantage), but as outlined in the footer and on the talk page (which I also linked to, for Mukade's sake). My own brainstorming and Gumby's should give you an idea of what's cooking. Just don't tell me we have to explain the meaning of every single item, because we all have better things to do right now. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 02:16, 27 October 2008 (CET)<br />
::::Okay, now I get it, at least as much as I'm going to get it, I suppose. But if you think this plan was in any way clear before your last post, hate to tell ya, but it wasn't; don't act like you explained anything on the Disclaimers talk page, it's an incomprehensible list of gibberish right now. Whatever, have fun with it.<br />
::::P.S.: By injecting humor into official wiki pages such as [[OniGalore:Policy|Policy]], I am *trying* to preserve fun while adding functionality, sorry if you don't see it that way, but I daresay most people will; heck, even Wikipedia has [[wikipedia:WP:BEANS|joke pages]] as part of their system of policy articles. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:28, 27 October 2008 (CET)<br />
:::::The functionality added by those official pages is nil, and the humor is IMO fairly tasteless, so in a way it's "worse than nothing". You know as well as I do that there's more than enough places on the web that cultivate that kind of humor; no need to develop it here as if our wiki was Yet Another Weak Hu--[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 04:27, 27 October 2008 (CET)mor Site. If you can relate your humor to Bungie or Oni, that will already be more creative, if not better (I mean, since Bungie humor is already not very tasteful, either make the weak s##t part of the Bungie strain or leave it out). That's just my opinion of course, you're a big boy and I wouldn't want to tell you how to run an Oni wiki. ''<-- NOT ASKING FOR A FORMAL POLICY, OF COURSE; JUST TRYING TO APPEAL TO COMMON SENSE: THE WIKI IS NEITHER A SELF-INDULGENT BLOG NOR A PORTAL TO UNCYCLOPEDIA; SO LET'S AT LEAST TRY TO KEEP THE CRAP OUT<br />
:::::"don't act like you explained anything on the Disclaimers talk page, it's an incomprehensible list of gibberish right now" Let's not play dumb and dumber, please. Care to go and read it again? Here's what it says at the bottom: ''<-- OOPS! MISTAKING THE DISCLAIMER FOR THE TALK PAGE WAS A VERY BAD IDEA''<br />
::::::''The above masterpiece was outrageousy stolen (by me, [[User:Geyser|geyser]]) from [http://www.swo.com Science of War and Oppression]. '''I am looking forward to making [[OniGalore talk:General disclaimer|a more Oni-oriented variant]] (you're welcome if you want to help)''', but for now it's [http://www.swo.com/disclaimer.shtml SWO's original version], with a few original entries by myself. No, I don't have permission to redistribute their disclaimer. I'll try to keep it clean :)''<br />
:::::You have had the ample opportunity to check out SWO's original disclaimer (incomprehensible list of gibberish? ''riiiiiiight'' ''<-- OOPS! SAME MISTAKE AS ABOVE, LOOKING AT THE WRONG PAGE''), as well as the talk related to ours, and the recent contributions by Gumby and myself have made the initiative all the more explicit. Sorry if you didn't get the picture, but I didn't want to insult your intelligence. ''<-- THAT ONE STILL HOLDS, I GUESS. I MEAN, GUMBY GOT THE IDEA ALL BY HIMSELF AND EVEN ADDED THE FIRST HYPERLINK...''<br />
::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 03:27, 27 October 2008 (CET)<br />
:::::::Non-Oni-related humor... is <u>that</u> what's been burning your biscuits all this time about my jokes? Sorry, I didn't think we had a Bungie-only humor rule here. Let's try not to be so insular and snobbish, 'kay? Let's also try not to be insulting, although it's too late for that today -- having an Editing Policy page, a Copyrights page, or any page defining user rights and roles is a ''hell'' of a lot more useful than your original Disclaimers page. And I certainly read that note at the bottom a while back... how on Earth do you think that wording conveys your plans to make a Site Map out of random Oni phrases on a ''Disclaimer'' page? The longer you continue this back-and-forth, the more ridiculous you look. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:35, 27 October 2008 (CET)<br />
:::::::P.S.: In response to your point about not making the wiki a portal to other crap, I don't plan on doing regularly what I did with the Editing Policy page. But to clarify what I meant above in case you missed it, I don't think we need to be insular as a community, where anything that's not Oni or generally Bungie-related is automatically "crap". I specifically put a note in my Talk page about how a community can go too far in that direction and become a barricaded fortress of in-jokes that only the community elite actually understand. I prefer a more approachable take on humor, personally. But I will try to keep the external links to a bare minimum. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 04:27, 27 October 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
:::::::stop bitching or my ninjas will come and find you! [[User:guido|guido]] 18:47, 27 October 2008 (CET)</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=12996Talk:Main Page2008-10-26T09:03:15Z<p>Guido: just a minor suggestion for the mainpage</p>
<hr />
<div>__TOC__<br />
==Diversification of Names==<br />
The list under Names includes varying entities. The Imago suggests splitting into: Characters, Groups, and Objects, allowing Added Value a separate listing. So proposes the Imago. [[User:Imago|Imago]] 04:31, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:I liked your idea, and have implemented it with a couple changes: the [[Names]] page wasn't worth breaking up into even smaller pages for Characters, Groups, and Objects, and we wouldn't have multiple links on the Main page all going to one other page, so I simply changed the wording of the link on the Main page to be more descriptive.<br />
:I did add a link to Added value, which indeed, should have been there all along. I'm just not sure what to do with the Trivia. Does that belong in Added value? I wonder what geyser's thoughts on that are. Was the [[Trivia]] page always going to be its own thing? Is "added value" supposed to refer only to further thoughts on Oni, which would rule out the Trivia page? Or should Trivia just be rolled into the other pages? I think at least some of it is totally redundant. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:32, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==Standerds==<br />
:Mayhap we should set some standerds for article creation/modification. For one, NO m-rated language.[[User:The Deadly Brain|The Deadly Brain]] 19:18, 25 May 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:I beg to disagree. Clean language is not an option.<br />
:The best we can do is blank out certain characters.<br />
:So I hope you're all right with s##t and f##k etc.<br />
:Peace<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:16, 25 May 2007 (CEST)<br />
:In any case, such a rule would have to be motivated.<br />
:Are ''you'' offended, or do you want to protect others?<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:16, 25 May 2007 (CEST)<br />
:BTW, there ''are'' stand'''a'''rds in terms of spelling ^^<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:16, 25 May 2007 (CEST)<br />
:I know for a fact children younger then ten visit this site.<br />
::[[User:The Deadly Brain|The Deadly Brain]] 23:22, 25 May 2007 (CEST)<br />
:#Do you mean from {{OCF}}? (we're not indexed on Google yet)<br />
:#All clear. But it's as I said. "Bleeping" at most.<br />
:You can be the bleeper-in-chief if you want ^^<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:59, 26 May 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
==Expansion==<br />
it could use a bit of enlarging... and detailing... this site ain't a direct-copy of the game (even though it might seem so ;P), so... :)<br />
[[User:EgonFreeman|EgonFreeman]] 1:33, 9 Jun 2006 (CEST)<br />
:Well, feel free to contribute... that's how it works. All the detailing and enlarging is done by me ATM, but it's not supposed to stay that way...<br />
:I know there are things like chapter summaries and character profiles missing, but... there are other priorities, including Oni-related ones :)<br />
:I may be trimming the Main Page soon (it's a bit confusing at the moment). More images, less text. Links to namespaces and such.<br />
:[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 02:30, 14 Jun 2006 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==Proposal for New Main Page ([[User:Iritscen/MainPageProposal]])==<br />
:Sorry, geyser, I should have discussed it first, but I thought, it's better to show than to tell, and if you didn't like it, you could revert... also, I copied because I didn't want to make you move things back if you wanted to revert (and because some things were getting moved to separate pages, not just moved together)...<br />
:anyway, it sounds like you prefer the main items to be the only items on the front page, and each links to its own page, right? "Making of", "Basic", etc. are the only level that shows here. Is that right?<br />
::[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:27, 16 January 2008 (CET)<br />
#You could totally have "shown" here in the talk page, or (better) in your user namespace, with only a link to that new page design here, like: [[User:Iritscen/Main Page]]<br />
#That's right. The main page should be a "portal to portals" with most of the details moved to those other portals. What we have now is something resembling a "site map".<br />
:We'll see about reverting. The wiki is important, but I will sorta have to focus on modding this week, so I'm not sure I'll have the right inspiration to help you guys.<br />
:As for the splitting stuff off to separate pages, please let's not have too much of that. Mini-pages actually make the wiki harder to browse and more annoying to read.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:40, 16 January 2008 (CET)<br />
Okay, what if the main page looks as it does now (but maybe a nicer arrangement of the titles), and then each of those links to some fairly large pages -- no mini-pages. If you don't like that, I will revert to original Main Page and go do something with the Images section... future changes will indeed be previewed in my namespace. Sorry, I forgot my wiki etiquette. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:47, 16 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
@Iritscen: That sucks. Would you please change that back and use a playground first as geyser had suggested it above? [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 18:21, 16 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
:Well, since you asked nicely, sure, I'll do that. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:22, 16 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
Thank you. (Wow, now that was really a fast response. :-) I've nothing against a new main page, but it's not a good choice to replace a full working site with an "under construction" one. [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 18:38, 16 January 2008 (CET)<br />
:You're right, I was expecting a quick reply from geyser, but it seems he's moved on to something else. When he responded I was going to start fixing things up. You just happened to come along in the meantime. As he's pointed out, I should be doing things like that in my namespace; see User:Iritscen/MainPageProposal from now on.<br />
:Anyway, we should still get a sense of what kind of page people want. A very simple one with groups like "Making Of", "Basic Info", etc., or can we have subgroups like in the Proposal? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:55, 16 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
Oh... I'm sorry. Didn't know that it was already in work. However, your new main page looks good. IMO you can replace the main page.<br />
<br />
One suggestion: Add an equals sign to every group and subgroup. F.e.: <nowiki>=Help= to ==Help==</nowiki>. IMO it looks better, because the page has not so much dividing lines. [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 11:20, 17 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
:Okay, I did that, and agree it looks better. But Ssg, geyser does not agree that the page should be so long, which is why I want to arrive at a consensus before replacing what's on the Main Page. I think the page can be that long, but maybe he thinks it's unwieldy or intimidating.<br />
<br />
:Also, I am trying to add this code at the top of the page:<br />
<br />
:<nowiki><center><div style="font-size=162%;">Welcome to OniGalore, the wiki for all things Oni.</div><br />
:[[Special:Statistics|{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}]] articles in total</center></nowiki><br />
<br />
:Two problems: 1. It does not change the font-size! and 2. The article count looks wrong. Look at the statistics page. There's a bajillion pages and it says only 90 are probably "real content". Is that true? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:14, 17 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
Replace the equals sign between "font-size" and "162%" with a colon:<br />
<br />
<center><div style="font-size:162%;">Welcome to OniGalore, the wiki for all things Oni.</div><br />
:[[Special:Statistics|{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}]] articles in total</center><br />
<br />
The "90 articles" is right, I guess. IMO Wiki takes a namepsace as one article. So f.e. the whole OBD sites are only one article. Well, that's what I think. I've no idea, if that's right or not.<br />
<br />
I like the long main page, because it contains all information I need. I don't have to search for something and I don't have to guess where something could be located. Nevertheless, to shorten it I would move the external links to a seperate site, because that's a topic that can run up to a lot of entries. The link to the "External Links" can be placed in the "Further Content" section. [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 18:57, 17 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
:THANK YOU. That was driving me crazy; I think our wiki's syntax is a little different from Wikipedia, or else I'm just confused. But the tags work now, and that's what matters. I agree with your input on the External Links (it's not really appropriate to have external links on a wiki's front page, now that I think about it), and am adjusting accordingly. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:45, 17 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
::It is probably because wikipedia is updated :P...OniWiki is ollllddd [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]<br />
<br />
==Vote for New Main Page==<br />
Please add your opinion below. All in favor of the page at [[User:Iritscen/MainPageProposal]] write '''For''' and optionally give a comment. Otherwise write '''Against''' and please explain why. Remember to sign! We need to get this matter settled so I can move on to other things on the wiki and stop glancing at the talk page looking for changes.<br />
<br />
'''For'''. But I ''am'' a biased party :-3 --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:15, 28 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
'''For'''. The new page is hawt [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 08:42, 30 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
'''For'''. I like it :) [[User:Tyr|Tyr]] 16:57, 30 January 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
'''Err'''. How is it different from the old one? [[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:26, 31 January 2008 (CET)<br />
::Stuff got moved around, and a new intro, methinks<br />
::http://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=User%3AIritscen%2FMainPageProposal&diff=7480&oldid=7479 if it helps :P [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 20:03, 1 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
'''For'''. Maybe we should move the "help" section to the 2nd or 4th position, so that the "basic content" is followed directly by the "further content". That makes more sense, IMO. [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 14:37, 2 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
;Kkk.<br />
:K guys, looks like long silences attract spam. What do you think about a 3-column layout such as [[User:Geyser/Main|THIS]]?<br />
:Of course, you could add items to every list, but I'd rather keep them short and redirecting elsewhere.<br />
:If I don't have a reply by the end of the weekend, I'll make [[User:Geyser/Main|this]] the new main page, fa fa fa fa fa! ^_^<br />
:The old one (or maybe Iritscen's revisited version) will be moved to "Main Page/Site map" or something.<br />
<br />
'''Mmh'''... not bad either. If we use this, you should add a "valign=top" so that the entries of the last row are always on top. [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 19:07, 2 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
;Hmm...<br />
:Added the valign thing. Needless to say, you're welcome to fancify the colors, reshuffle the lists etc... at any time.<br />
:That page also relies on 4 pages that don't exist yet: "ONi", "ONi for fans", "ONi for players" and "ONi for modders"...<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:32, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
;Oh...<br />
:Oh indeed. As for that spam we're getting, it's not clear whom we owe this new source of comfort.<br />
:We were never indexed on Google, so it must be a problem of linking here from one place too many.<br />
:Did someone add a link to the wiki from a site hosted on a public server, or something like that?<br />
:Interestingly, the IPs are very specific, with a single set of spam per IP. That's a "good " thing.<br />
:If we keep getting more of that, we will probably restrict editing access to registered users.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:32, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:OK, who do we know in Odessa, Ukraine? ^_^<br />
<br />
I've added a lot of [[links]]. [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 01:08, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
Why not to [[OniGalore:Community_Portal]]? [[User:Geyser|geyser]] 01:44, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
Oh... forgot about this site. (There is no link to it on the main page.) Sorry. Nonetheless, I prefer the name "links". So I would suggest to close the "community_portal" page and use the "links" page.<br />
*To your main page proposal: Why are the entries of the 1st and 2nd rows links? ("ONi", "ONi for fans", "ONi for players" and "ONi for modders") Do we need these? What's your idea for the content of these?<br />
*To the colouring offer: Believe it or not, but the colour you've chosen looks good to me. :-) [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 15:02, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
;Crap.<br />
:It's getting flooded in here. Will definitely clean this up after setting up the new Main Page layout.<br />
:There are nice links to "Community portal" and "Current events" in the wiki's main navigation box...<br />
:These pages are there by default, which is why I'm using them rather than pages called "Links" etc.<br />
:So, closing [[OniGalore:Community_Portal]] is not an option, but we can make [[Links]] redirect there.<br />
:I strongly object to an "exhaustive" collection of links (the "links to programs", for example)...<br />
:Such lists are useless to newcomers, and only serve as bookmarks to people who know where to look.<br />
:If a program is worth linking to, develop on it, either on its own page, or in [[Programs]] or such.<br />
*"ONi" and the other three are supposed to be portals in article form (with sentences and lists).<br />
:They would describe the main fields of interest and provide links to more detailed "articles".<br />
:Simply put, they are expanded, verbose versions of the mini-lists in the Main Page portal.<br />
*Heh, I'm just using [[Template:Table]], so the color is yours. I thought of livening it up.<br />
:(you know, with different colors for the columns, a background picture, some mini-thumbs)<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:10, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
----<br />
;To a public server?<br />
:Could be almost every fan site which isn't on oni2.net. (Links which I set to the wiki: a more or less dead webspace*, a private wiki*, a privat forum**). Or do you mean link from a public server? Maybe it works that way too. (I've a link on animexx.onlinewelten.com** to my oni2.net webspace which is linked to the OG.)<br />
:<nowiki>*</nowiki> - not indexed by google<br><nowiki>**</nowiki> - indexed by google, but restricted area excluded for logged in members<br />
:However, it seems like a silly bot which attacks only the "Talk:Main Page". So why not set it under protection?<br />
::[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 14:46, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:Yes, I meant "from" (sorry about the "typo").<br />
:I enabled protection for this page.<br />
:You have to log in to edit it now.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:58, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
;For/against...<br />
:Well, I think both pages are better than the old. But I trend to geyser's because it's more compact.<br />
::[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 14:46, 3 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
----<br />
===Vote Canceled===<br />
:At the risk of sounding bitchy... you guys really got off track here. You're talking about spam (where?), and portals, and forgetting to sign so I have no idea who's saying what. Now geyser has introduced a new main page in the middle of the vote, so the vote has been totally derailed. This means everyone's vote is now obsolete, because it may or may not have been made after seeing geyser's new page. *sigh* If we're going to try this democratic thing properly, we need everyone to please vote again in the next section. It's not my fault. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:44, 4 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
:I'm sorry I spoiled your vote (perhaps intentionally: I'm a dictator after all, albeit an enlightened one). Note, however, that every single person either signed or logged in.<br />
:You could thus always get an idea of who's talking, with a quick look at the history. BTW, the recent spam would also appear there, as it was plaguing this very page.<br />
:You shouldn't overestimate the democratic aspects of wikis. Just because Wikipedia does things a certain way doesn't mean we should mimic them: not at all...<br />
:All those encyclopedic standards, for example, are completely irrelevant to a project wiki, which should just be decently informative to its supposed visitors, period.<br />
:I also think it's quite appropriate not to enforce scholarly objectivity in the articles. As long as "personal essays" and occasional wacky stuff do their job, let them be.<br />
:Bring in organization if you like, but spare us the tedious bits. In other words: take the "fun" out of "functionality", and I might buy myself some extra guts, my [[friend]] ^_^<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 23:09, 4 February 2008 (CET)<br><br />
::Perhaps you noticed my bringing in a template, huh? :-) Don't worry, I am not going to be a wiki-Nazi who insists on WP-style writing everywhere. I am all for some whimsicality in this wiki. But at the start, it seems to me that the wiki was basically your baby, and while I don't want to take it away from you (not that I could, Mr. Admin!), if we don't open it up for others to contribute, it can't represent the community as a whole. But if an article is written in 1st person, then it naturally makes anyone else hesitant to touch it, so they can't contribute. That was the purpose behind the template.<br />
::I'm sure you won't mind others taking some of the burden off your shoulders and helping you finish up the wiki; I just want to assure you that that's really my only goal in everything I do here. I also don't intend to put every single thing up to a vote; it's just that the Main Page is an important matter and I think we need input on what design would be most user-friendly. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:28, 5 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
==2nd Vote For New Main Page==<br />
Please vote for the old (current) [[Main_Page]], or for my [[User:Iritscen/MainPageProposal|proposal]], or for geyser's [[User:Geyser/Main|proposal]]. I guess it will save time to just say '''OP''' for the original (current) page, '''IP''' for Iritscen's Page, or '''GP''' for Geyser's Page. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:44, 4 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
;IP.<br />
:I do appreciate geyser's new page, but I think the formatting is not really proper wiki-style. True, it's our wiki and it can look however we want it to. I just prefer a vertical layout to a horizontal layout. Also, the comments on each item in GP are a bit untidy and make it look cluttered because they broaden the overall table.<br />
::[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:44, 4 February 2008 (CET)<br />
;GP.<br />
:(I don't think either Iritscen or I are in a position to vote, but his critique deserves a response)<br />
:No comment on your preferences, but IMO a home page should offer an overview within a page or two.<br />
:Optimally, the user doesn't need to scroll at all to start navigating (more or less my suggestion).<br />
:As for "proper wiki-style", you should have a 2nd look at Main Pages elsewhere... anywhere.<br />
:They are typically very small: either tight paragraphs or tables, directing to only a few pages.<br />
:Finally, my table spans the whole page: the comments wrap around instead of "broadening it up".<br />
:Also note that the comments don't wrap at all unless your horizontal resolution is 800 or lower.<br />
:I wouldn't say the table looks cluttered on a 1024x768 monitor, which is quite something.<br />
:If by "untidy" you meant the wacky randomness of some comments, it's an intended feature.<br />
:Of course I can't claim to be a master of silly jokes à la Bungie (nor do I want to).<br />
:But the wiki can be made more appealing/intriguing if it's spiced up by such things.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 23:26, 4 February 2008 (CET)<br />
::I'm not going to keep critiquing your page and start sounding like a politician doing attack ads; the vote isn't up to us, anyway; but just to be clear, you are right that your table is wiki-like. But the advantage of my vertical approach is that the Table of Contents is used to jump to wherever you want. You also don't have to categorize yourself first when trying to find a link ("Am I a fan, a player, or a modder?"). You just look for the subject you want to read about in the TOC and click it.<br />
::And it's okay to be a little silly, but the comments in parentheses are basically explaining what each link is, which looks like clutter to me. If the links are not explanatory enough for a newbie, than you and I are doing something wrong and the links/pages need to be named better. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:42, 5 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
;?P.<br />
:Ooh... I can't decide. Both are good. Seems that we have to wait for some more opinions...<br />
::[[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 12:34, 5 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
===Vote Canceled===<br />
Okay, let's forget this whole thing ever happened. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:30, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
==Beyond the vote==<br />
:@geyser: The table doesn't look good in 1440x900. I suggest either to put the table into another table or to put the content of the last row into separate tables and center these. Also I don't like the look of the part above the table (introduction, welcome pic). That should be polished somehow.<br />
::[[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 12:34, 5 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:As for both layouts being good, my suggestion was to keep them both. Iritscen's can go either below the table or on a separate page (like a site map).<br />
:As for the looks in 1440x900, I'm not sure what you mean. If you object to the lists being flushed left in wide table columns, then I kinda disagree.<br />
:If you embed the lists into centered sub-tables, the width of those will depend on the content, so it will be different for the three columns. Ugly.<br />
:IMO, left-aligned lists are OK and anything else will look worse. Might be wrong. Anyway, you are free to polish anything you feel like polishing.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:39, 5 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
My vote goes neither to Geyser's nor to Iritscen's proposal. What we have here is not a choice between two alternatives. We rather need a blending of both.<br />
Iritscen organized the main topics way better than Geyser. However Geyser's layout is absolutely more user friendly... even a lazy person like me is allowed to spot everything that's worth of interest at a first glance. <br />
Somebody just grab Geyser's layout script, and figure out a way to put in the bottom table all the topics as Iriscen said. Also, Iritscen you may think of a better welcome message for the page header. The note about the search function is annoyingly obvious, just delete it. And remove that bloody drawing of mine! Bring back Lorraine's art or just leave no pictures, it will look fine as well.<br />
::[[User:Guido|guido]] 13.15, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:What do you mean by the "bottom table"? I'm curious.<br />
:"A better welcome message"... yeah, I ripped that thing off wholesale from Wikipedia, I'm not defending it. I'll see if I can think of something better.<br />
:"The note about the search function"... yeah, it's a little patronizing, I thought the same thing.<br />
:"Remove that bloody drawing of mine"... I really like it, but perhaps a piece of "canon" art is called for on the Main Page. I'll browse through our Images gallery for something of Lorraine's.<br />
::[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:21, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:Guido and ssg both have really weird ways to refer to those three lists: "bottom table", "last row"... for sake's sake, it's the actual table, guys!<br />
:Welcome messages are hard to get right, which is why no one seems willing to take the responsibility of actually sitting down and writing them. ^_^<br />
:I know for a fact that many people are unaware/oblivious of the direct-hit a.k.a. "Go" feature. I explained that in some more detail. Enjoy.<br />
:Guido, your drawing is staying. It's up to you to remove or replace it, but as far as I'm concerned I'd only take the thumb-frame away.<br />
:Apart from being just plain nice, it makes us stand apart from all those who don't know better than to recycle Lorraine's art forever.<br />
:BTW, the opportunity to liven up the wiki with contextual illustrations still holds. Help yourself to the image gallery, everybody.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:18, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:About the comments in brackets. When they are humorous rather than informative, and don't contain hyperlinks, we can replace them with hoverboxes, like this: [[Iron Demon|<span title="IT'S... ALIIIVE!!!">Iron Demon</span>]]<br />
:There are plenty of other ways to improve "my" table, but I woundn't cram all of Iritscen's "site map" into it because: 1) it will never encompass the variety of the wiki's content; 2) in the attempt to do so, it will grow larger and larger, so that "even a lazy person like [Guido] is able to spot everything that's worth of interest at a first glance" will no longer be true.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:18, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
::Okay, I will implement the hover boxes. That seems like a good compromise. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:11, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:::Hoverboxes added. I also removed some lower levels of hierarchy (or should I say arboresence?) in the Main Page because that kind of detail is unnecessary (that's what my Main Page, er, Site Map is for!) --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:32, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
==On The New Main Page==<br />
Well, this is it. We've just witnessed a mental breakdown. Someone call the men in white coats for geyser. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:43, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:Also, am I the only one who has a big problem with "ONi"? I suppose if I weren't lazy I would change it to "Oni" myself and get in a revert war with geyser, but instead I'm being diplomatic by asking for other people's opinions. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:27, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
::And so it begins...luckily for me, I won't have access to the forum for a few days. geyser, I apologize, but I am hardheaded :P[[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 20:02, 6 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
That chibi Shinatama is cute. Just wanted to say that. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:14, 12 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
Okay, here's a more constructive comment. I propose that we (by which I mean geyser, since he's the expert in tables) make a second table below "Oni" for "After Oni..." where we can put the items in See Also. It seems disorganized to have a little section like that after a big table. The second table could bring those items out in more detail (specifically, breaking out "Oni 2" to be a little more specific). Just an idea. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:25, 12 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
:Well, as far as I'm concerned, the Main Page is functional enough as it is<br />
:(however, I still can't forgive how you replaced Upgrades with Daodan DLL).<br />
:If you think about "Oni 2" in terms of "added value", it is not "after" Oni.<br />
:And the projects under "See also" are really miscellaneous curiosities ATM.<br />
:When Konoko Payne goes beyond the proof-of-concept stage, I'll reconsider.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 23:00, 25 February 2008 (CET)<br />
<br />
==Chibi Image==<br />
<br />
Why is it all pink when I see it on the main page, but all colorful when I click on the image?<br />
:--Gumby<br />
:Me too. Gumby, what browser you're using. I've mozilla firefox.<br />
:Same effect for an image by Iritscen. Please check [http://wiki.oni2.net/Image:PKV_01_-_Front-On_Konoko_%28F-PS%29.png THIS] and confirm the error.<br />
::--[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 21:15, 25 February 2008 (CET)<br />
Being colorblind, it's hard for me to see that Shinatama is "all pink" on the main page, but she doesn't look nearly as good as on the image page: [[Image:Chibi_Shinatama_Final_by_RedDog.png]].<br> Even aside from the color thing, she might need to be sized down in a proper graphics app like Photoshop rather than leaving the scaling to the wiki. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:38, 25 February 2008 (CET)<br />
::Perfect, Gumby! Nicely fixed. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:40, 25 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:It is ''not'' a perfect fix, it's a dirty hack around a flaw in the outdated MediaWiki engine.<br />
:I asked Alloc to update the engine and I'd rather if you had some patience until he does so.<br />
:Sigh. I'll leave the resized PNG for now, but eventually I'll revert to the one I uploaded.<br />
:Wikipedia scales PNG nicely, so there's no reason why our wiki shouldn't. Just be patient.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 23:00, 25 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:"dirty hack"? Pshaw, that took a lot of work...like...copying the image...and uploading the image :P I understand the want for the PNG to work properly though. I once asked Alloc about the wiki's age and there was some reason he didn't want to upgrade it...probably too much work...xD. I wanted to have support for lowercase titles, but the wiki is too old :P. And, I use IE7 at school. Let me check using Opera (Wii browser) for the glitch...<br />
::[[User:Gumby|Gumby]]<br />
:I have Opera, and the glitch is there. Moreover, you have to realize that the scaling glitch is server-side.<br />
:It's the wiki's engine that generates the scaled versions of the images, when processing wiki text into HTML.<br />
:It's those automatically generated images that are wrong, and they'll be wrong no matter what the browser...<br />
:Upgrading the wiki means quite a lot of work for the admin, and a downtime, too. Dunno when that'll happen.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:06, 27 February 2008 (CET)<br />
:Yeah, I know, it doesn't hurt to check though...:D<br />
::[[User:Gumby|Gumby]]<br />
==Talking Heads Xplode==<br />
:The wiki now scales PNG properly, however previously generated thumbs may need to be purged (the easiest way is to reupload the image).<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 12:45, 2 June 2008 (CEST)<br />
:Now that the PNG scaling problem is fixed we can re-upload all of the talking head images as PNG right? The JPEG artifacts look really bad, especially when scaled. I'd be glad to help.<br />
::[[User:RossyMiles|rossy]] 11:46, 3 June 2008 (CEST)<br />
:Great. Let us know if you have problems exporting them from Oni. As for the naming convention, please use [[:Image:TXMPSHINlistening.png]] etc. It's also best to add the category tags <nowiki>[[Category:Portraits]][[Category:In-game art]]</nowiki> to the upload summary. After you're done, we'll delete "Images/In-Game/Talking_Heads".<br />
:Maybe "Portraits" (or "Small portraits") is not the best pick, but "Talking heads" is pretty bad as well. Oni calls them "cinematics", even more counter-intuitively. They're "insets" and "popups" (or "fly-ins") to me, so maybe the least confusing category would be something like "Cutscene pop-ups" or "Inset portraits".<br />
:If we don't want to stress the function of those images in Oni, then "Small portraits" is probably good enough. If we want to stress that they're backing up the voice-overs, maybe I'd use "Voice-over art" ([[Voice actors|deliberately confusing]], sorta).<br />
:Off topic: I didn't bother to give you feedback on your user page, since you apparently got in touch with SFeLi. As for Daodan discussion, you've probably spotted [[Daodan DLL]] by now.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST)<br />
==Welcome statements==<br />
:I removed this from the top of the Main Page because I thought it was redundant, feel free to reinject it in the main text somehow.<br />
<center>''This wiki is a community-wide effort. If you're a new or returning Oni fan, perhaps you can take the time to [[Current events#To-Do|contribute]] towards making this wiki more complete.''</center><br />
:Whatever you do, make sure that Shinatama doesn't interfere with the table on 1600x#### or wider. Move the haiku around if you have to.<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 12:45, 2 June 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==Main Page Image==<br />
Does anyone know how to randomize in the wiki parser language? Or else how to get the current date? I'd like to switch up the image on the right of the Main Page from time to time. It's very nice, but it's also very very cute, and Oni is not accurately summed up by Chibi Shinatama. We should at least put in a darker image from time to time, and vary the subject (Mukade, Konoko, Griffin, etc.). But I don't want to have to change the image manually. If we can set up a template that looks at, say, the day of the week, or picks a random number, we can have the image change itself from a pool of candidate images that we would set up. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:09, 1 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
:1) Let's have a look at the pool, first; 2) It's less procrastinatory to do it manually, really; 3) Actually, pretty much anything is less procrastinatory than this ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:19, 1 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
::1. I don't have a pool, I just had a thought and then posted it. But the pool would be mostly Guido stuff, certainly. Not fan art in general. No more than seven handpicked images, cream of the crop and all that.<br />
::2. Yes and no. Who feels like changing the page every week or whatever? I don't. Plus that generates unnecessary edits. I love automation, and getting technology to work for me, not the other way around.<br />
::3. We can afford to procrastinate this, it's hardly a big issue. Seriously, I just wanted to throw my thoughts out there, and see if anyone had an answer to my question(s) (I've done some research, but I haven't found anything). We'll get around to doing something when we get around to doing it. No rush (unlike the other umpteen things I am working on). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:27, 1 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::I see no image, and the haiku is smashed to the right, in a thin column. Making it only a simple poem :) [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 04:13, 3 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
::::Which image is up? Griffin's? It looks fine for me. Can you take a screenshot of the problem, please? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 13:50, 3 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::"Gumby: I see no image - Iritscen: Which image is up?" Duuuuuuuh, priceless.<br />
:::::"Griffin's?" Griffin's was yesterday. Today's treat is ominous ragged Konoko.<br />
:::::"It looks fine for me." Blame your browser's cache for showing you Griffin.<br />
::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:02, 3 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::::Well, bite me. I hit Refresh on the page and it still showed me Griffin. That seemed wrong, hence my question to Gumby as to who he was seeing. And now I Refreshed again and see scary smiling Konoko, but the haiku is still fine. Since I didn't change the layout of the page at all, only varied the image, I am justifiably confused about what problem Gumby could be having as long as he's not looking at my MainPageTest. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:48, 3 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::::Okay, looks like you did do something to fix it, I guess. I never saw the problem, so I don't know. But thanks, I suppose. God, you piss me off so much sometimes, though, geyser. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:51, 3 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
::::::::'''hence my question to Gumby as to who he was seeing''' he said "I see no image", re:duh... '''That seemed wrong'''... but you sounded like everything was "fine for you". '''looks like you did do something to fix it'''... yeah, turned out the fancy variable is zero-based. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:09, 3 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::::::'''reasons I'm an idiot'''... Damn. I need more sleep. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:26, 3 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==On The New New Main Page==<br />
Well, I don't understand why it has to be fiddled with. I strongly feel that two large blocks of tabled text such as we have now, preceded by technical mumbo-jumbo, are not more "inviting" than the light, airy feel we had with the previous introduction text. I thought we had finally reached a Good Place with the Main Page when I slimmed down your unnecessary explanations. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 04:04, 8 October 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:I plead guilty on the mumbo-jumbo: I thought of it as intriguing. It's a reference to Chung's datapad, the icon of which (OniGalore's old icon) is shown in the upper-right corner, and leads people straight to {{C|1}}. Somehow I've always wanted the main page to be somewhat fancy, with the welcome message set in some kind of atmosphere: in this case, Oni's cyberpunk in general and data terminals in particular. Maybe a screenshot of Konoko reading our welcome message from Chung's datapad would be more immersive. Or maybe it would suck.<br />
:As for my unnecessary explanations, I hoped they would encourage scripters from OCF to contribute to BSL documentation. If we think this isn't going to happen, then you can remove the whole NOTE ON THE "GO" FEATURE block (to the general public it may look like an insult to intelligence, yes). Keep the table, though, as it solves the overlap issue permanently; if you want airiness, you can have something like this (note I trimmed the first block significantly).<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 05:16, 8 October 2008 (CEST)<br />
{|width=100%<br />
|<br />
{|align=center<br />
|<br />
{|align=center<br />
{|align=center<br />
|<br />
Welcome to Oni Galore, a [[wikipedia:wiki|wiki]] dedicated to the video game '''[[Oni]]''' from [[Bungie West]] (PC/Mac/PS2, 2001/01).<br><br />
Below is a portal to the most popular/current/relevant resources. For the rest, there's search and [[wikipedia:serendipity|serendipity]]...<br><br />
For further information about the community, have a look at our [[OniGalore:Community Portal|community portal]] and at {{OCF}}.<br><br />
If you'd like to contribute to this wiki, check out the [[Current events]] as well as our [[Help:Contents|Help]] section. Enjoy your stay.<br />
|}<br />
|}<br />
|<br />
{|align=center<br />
|+'''''Friend or enemy,<br>thank you for your interest<br>in Oni Galore.<br />
|{{Dailyimage}}<br />
|}<br />
|}<br />
<br />
{{Table}}<br />
!TABLE<br />
|}<br />
<br />
<br />
It's quite helpful when you explain your thought processes like this, it allows me to find common ground. For instance, I think the idea of an "atmosphere" for the Main Page is an interesting one. I kind of feel like we could only achieve that with something more radically graphical and more unified. In other words, if this is ugly, which I think we all agree on:<br />
ENCRYPT SEQUENCE TmeC119-67<br />
Manifest 12A-694-v contains a number of fragile items. Note the follo....<br />
<TCTF UNIVERSAL DECRYPT RUNNING...DATA FOUND. DISPLAYING...><br />
<br />
Then this is less ugly, but still not pretty, and it's also distracting:<br><br />
ENCRYPT SEQUENCE TmeC119-67<br><br />
Manifest 12A-694-v contains a number of fragile items. Note the follo....<br><br />
<TCTF UNIVERSAL DECRYPT RUNNING...DATA FOUND. DISPLAYING...> <br />
<br />
This is more immersive:<br><br />
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t72/Iritscen/MPHeaderSample.jpg<br />
<br />
So, in other words, making some of the text into graphics allows us the freedom to use different fonts and more complex table-like structures (for instance, making the whole page feel like a datapad display; the above image doesn't really convey that, of course, it's just a quick and dirty sample). An overall structure would encompass the welcome text, the navigation table, and the picture of the day, all into one. Right now another problem on the Main Page is that there are two boxes and then a picture which feels tacked on to one side.<br />
<br />
So maybe we can try out some different designs and post mock-ups here of our ideas.<br />
<br />
As far as the Go/Search note, I just don't feel that the Main Page is a place to solicit editors to perform a certain task like setting up BSL redirects, even if they do kick butt. The thing is, I already tried to draw some people over to the wiki by posting on the forum a while back, and ultimately, even if it had a small effect, it wasn't much. I don't think we're ever going to see mass participation by community members in the wiki; it will probably always be more or less the ones who are already active (plus a few more if the community grows as we hopefully get more attention). And since you acknowledge that to readers of the wiki it is condscending to explain what "Go" and "Search" mean, I think we know what has to happen to that blurb.<br />
<br />
P.S.: How did you trim the first block that is posted above? It's identical to what's on the current Main Page.... --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:20, 8 October 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:"Making the whole page feel like a datapad display" is what I suggested up there. Text doesn't have to be photoshopped, because bold Arial or Tahoma already looks OK, and there are some more common font families we can use; so there can be graphics in the background, with typeset text on top of it. However, I don't feel we should spend too much time on designing something as fancy as [http://guido.oni2.net/index.%20guido.oni2.net.jpg this] or whatever could have been the new design of OniCentral. I actually planned a compact, datapad-like design for geyser.oni2.net at first, based on [http://www.issendai.com THIS] but with a black/blue theme similar to Oni's Load Game dialog. And I could port it here. But I doubt we can make such an "atmospheric" thing work well within an otherwise plain frame (the default layout of the wiki is black on white and it's not going anywhere). Screen width VS resolution of the immersive screenshot or artwork would be one issue, visual clash between the "welcome" and the table would be another, and with the picture of the day next to a graphically enhanced text, people won't know where to look first and what to look for, sorta. So probably it's better to stick with my "airy" suggestion up there. A minimal block of text, and the haiku/POTD as the only artful/atmospheric element. As for the block of text, it's the same as on the current Main Page, yes, but it's shorter and more tidy than the ''previous'' revision. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:13, 8 October 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Just to be clear, I was suggesting a look that would include the table at the bottom as well as the picture, in other words not looking strictly like the in-game datapad, but based on the look of Oni's interface and technology.<br />
::But as you said, it wouldn't jive with the overall plain "theme" of the Main Page, and in any case, it could be considered jarring to go from a fancy page like that to plain black on white everywhere else on the wiki. So I'm willing to let this idea go.<br />
::P.S.: Still meaning to write individual haiku for the PotDs, just haven't been in the poetic mood yet. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:17, 8 October 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
::P.S: ... and what about replacing "serendipity" with "cherry picking"? I think it would be more intuitive. [User:Guido|Guido]] 10:00, 26 October 2008 (CEST)</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=11857Wasteland Flowers2008-09-28T20:11:25Z<p>Guido: </p>
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<div>[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
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<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
page count : 45 of 111<br />
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(last update: Sept 28)<br />
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[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste02.jpg]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=Wasteland_Flowers&diff=11856Wasteland Flowers2008-09-28T20:10:49Z<p>Guido: yum yum</p>
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<div><br />
<br />
=Wasteland Flowers=<br />
<br />
[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste01.jpg]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Current progress==<br />
page count : 45 of 111<br />
<br />
(last update: Sept 28)<br />
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[[Image:GUIDO_WFtaste02.jpg]]</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=File:Guido_-_WFtaste02.jpg&diff=11855File:Guido - WFtaste02.jpg2008-09-28T20:07:34Z<p>Guido: </p>
<hr />
<div></div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=File:Guido_-_WFtaste01.jpg&diff=11854File:Guido - WFtaste01.jpg2008-09-28T20:05:03Z<p>Guido: sample taken from wasteland flowers</p>
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<div>sample taken from wasteland flowers</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=AE_talk:Trailer&diff=11827AE talk:Trailer2008-09-26T08:49:04Z<p>Guido: .</p>
<hr />
<div>Geyser, I may be able to record that sequence at a better quality. Increasing the resolution of the texture used may help too. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 01:30, 28 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Hmm, didn't see this until just now. I assume you must have seen my trailer draft, geyser (linked to from my User page). Do you still prefer to see the trailer done this way, having seen that? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:28, 28 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
:Gumby, feel free to re-record that scene. I believe I made it easy enough to replicate so it can be recorded in no time. I also think that sequence works quite nicely all the way to the "Oni" logo (also a placeholder for original Oni footage), except for the cheap-looking titles and the lack of animation for the logo itself (the large size will be OK as long as it pops up in some drop-dead-gorgeous fashion)... As for the textures of the glowing rings, on a good GFX card, with antialiasing and smart texturing and such it should look quite decent. If not, we can always rerecord this one scene with better textures closer to the deadline.<br />
<br />
:Iritscen, about your take on the trailer: I was notified of the forum thread by Gumby; other than that, I've been pretty much absent from everywhere including this wiki, barely ever looking at Recentchanges or such). As for your draft, the short answer is yes. I prefer "my" idea of the trailer over "yours". I have three major things to say and three minor ones.<br />
<br />
;Minor thing number zero:overcapitalization. "Coming Soon..." and "Watch For It"? WTF?<br />
::Heh. I am not too attached to those two titles either. Watch For It is kinda corny and Coming Soon is arguably superfluous. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
;Minor thing number one:"we've been busy for the past 7 years and 7 months"... Huh. Not like I don't respect the early Oni modders, but organized modding as we know it didn't happen until a couple of years ago (and as for the "we've been busy", we're still nowhere close to productive teamwork if you ask me).<br />
::I wondered what the reaction to that line would be. As with the other opening text, I threw it in without any forethought just so I could present my draft (not knowing about yours at the time). The "seven years, seven months" sounds good, but admittedly I was shooting in the dark because I wasn't around back then and didn't know what was being done. So yeah, I won't defend that. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
;Minor thing number two:preposterous release date. It's the trailer that will "air" by the end of August, and that if we're VERY VERY VERY lucky and hard-working and cooperative and inspired and talented and and and... and as for AE, I wouldn't expect it to come in time even for the 8th anniversary in January... that's why I stopped calling it the 7th Anniversary Edition a long time ago, preferring "Anniversary Edition" or "Edition". But that doesn't matter. Whenever we'll release it, it will still have Bungie's one ond only seven in the main menu background. "Anniversary Edition: it's a seven" - even if we release it 2 or 3 years from now.<br />
::I don't see why we can't at least get the trailer out soon; I mean, I wasn't planning personally on making a trailer that was exhaustive, just a nice sneak peek at some of what the AE may or may not offer (since what doesn't get packaged with the AE can be released on its own, so it's not all that dishonest to advertise those mods too, since they will run off the Edition framework). I am a little disappointed at your pushing back of the Edition. I think the first time I ever contacted you, by PM, I suggested that you release iterative Editions, one a year, with the latest mods available as of that time. You saw that as a lot of work, but I saw it as a simple matter of slapping some files together that were already done, and releasing the package once a year. I still would like you to consider releasing what you have now (or in the near future), and improving on that later. Just use version numbers or years ("Anniversary Edition '08") so people can keep them straight. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::You know I used to make releases before January, but I've also been paying attention to the feedback, and it just so happens that some of the features so far are flawed (buggy/crashy) and/or controversial. I know lame when I see lame, and I will *not* showcase or officially release lame (or controversial), because that would be the end of us. We need more thorough checking (e.g., Loser's modded TRAM cause memory corruption and Loser is apparently too busy with new stuff to double-check or fix that ^_^), and we need modular installation options (i.e., a truly powerful frontend for OniSplit on both PC and Mac, and probably an OniSplit 1.0 core to go with it). We don't have that now, and I don't know when we will, so I don't even want to think of a release date now. Just to make it clear again: the minimal set of AE is a solid modding mainframe, and a couple of equally solid upgrades (preferably modular/optional).<br />
::::Okay, I take your point about not introducing mods that corrupt memory/add controversial features (knockdown mod, anyone? ;-). And we see eye-to-eye on what the Edition is, as described in your last sentence above. Not sure if it answers my question, though, as to whether the "extended" features, mods that run off the AE framework, will be in the trailer. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::Doesn't my stuff right below answer your question either? Just what extended features are we talking about, and how random can we allow them to be? I'd say one of two glimpses of totally random modding is OK, but otherwise the trailer will fall apart. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:35, 30 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
::::::I like specificity. Check the Trailer page for my list, and let's work from that to determine what will be in the trailer. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:32, 30 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::As for the more or less random (and lame?) mods cluttering up the trailer, just what kind of attention do you think they'd get us? We're not making a trailer for OniSplit-powered goofing, for sake's sake. No one needs a trailer that doesn't look awesome, so if it's not awesome by the August 21 deadline, I'll postpone it. I hope I won't have to though. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:50, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
::::Well, I wouldn't show anything that's not awesome either, or at least cool. And it's interesting to suddenly see a deadline I had no inkling of ^_^' Not that it would be hard to meet the deadline on the editing side, as long as we decide soon what exactly we will show and then get that footage recorded pronto (I've already received some footage I wanted to use, in the "trailer" thread on the forum, but I think I need to get a better idea of which features you want to show before I go to the trouble of incorporating that footage). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::'''And it's interesting to suddenly see a deadline I had no inkling of''' Whoever made your trailer draft was fully aware of the "7 years and 7 months", so who the blam is ''this'' joke on? Re: I'll try to set up a brain dump of wanted scenes tonight. For now, may I just advise everyone involved or interested to have a second look at this, which I think was understressed in the forum thread:<br />
'''Content'''<br />
Basically a sequence of feature highlights, each of them rather short, announced by similar-looking full-screen titles. <br />
''Nice-looking and varied locations are a plus (e.g., if you want to show new AI skills, '''don't do it all in the Warehouse''').'' <br />
Content doesn't necessary have to be in-game Oni (''can be an external render or an editor view''), as long as it looks good. <br />
''Animated video is not a must'' (e.g., an ultra-quick slideshow is fine). ''Varied viewing angles and camera effects welcome.''<br />
::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:35, 30 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
;Major thing number zero:the music. Hunt is sluggish and Pursuit also lacks some energy. As you can see from wiki history and maybe even OCF history, the "Ambient Suite - No One Left To Trust" mix came up quite some time ago (it's been brewing practically since January AFAIR). NOLTT is typical Power Of Seven, mainstream enough to sound familiar to those who "hate techno", powerful enough to drive an action-packed trailer, and to top it off it's a track from Oni's early days, which didn't make it either into Oni or onto the promotional CD. Ambient Suite is a nice mixing effort on the part of Salvatori or O'Donnell or whoever, it features unfamiliar samples that don't appear ingame, and its movements allow for creatively synchronized titles. I have always been intrigued by the redundant intro, so I naturally came to use the twin explosions as the basic markers. As for the ending, I didn't actually sync it at all: Ambient Suite is just muted while NOLTT plays, and then kicks back in. So the music for the end titles is just a lucky coincidence.<br />
::...I guess this is just a difference in taste. I won't go into why I prefer my selections in music, though. Since they don't seem to work for you like they do for me, I would be willing to mix the trailer with the music you used. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
;Major thing number one: your draft is overly verbose at the beginning, which can be come across as long-winded, anticlimatic, or even aggressively "commercial", depending on the amount and type of words you use. Sure we want to advertise a bit, but we don't want to sound like those release-period reviews that are actually part of a game's promotional campaign. Actually, your trailer is pretty much a manifesto of our "team", and it's not bad... for a manifesto... but I think we need something lighter and more artful at the same time. Something closer to Oni's [[1998]] trailer if you like: let the visuals speak for themselves as much as possible. I'm not saying my intro is perfect, but I like how the sound samples match the phases of the footage, and there's a hidden "let's go back in time" meaning to the reversed cutscene: in order to have a second look at Oni, start where it all ended, literally... and then rewind a bit.<br />
::I should have mentioned earlier that I really like the intro you used — it's a good visual, and not bogged down in words like my intro, ''although'' it's potentially spoiler-ish for those who never played Oni. Does that matter? Not necessarily, if we're aiming this at existing Oni fans. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::Given the lack of backstory, I think it's your typical teaser: people are intrigued by the flow of energy, then see the transmitter, and then take a short look at the back of some super-chick surrounded by dead bodies, somehow connected to the transmitter: that said, I'm pretty sure many people discovered Oni after watching the spoilerful Resurrection; after all, the fun of Oni is mostly about the gameplay, and you can't really spoil that; oh, and the plot is largely understated, so there's not much to spoil there anyway ^_^<br />
::::Yeah, I suppose you're right. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
;Major thing number two:I don't think much of the side-by-side comparison of the highlighted upgrades. Specifically, while we should certainly do our best to make the Edition's content/gameplay look awesome, it's not a good move at all to try and make Oni look dull/dumb by contrast. That's why I opted for a quick overview of Oni's original awesomeness (with a focus on the unique gameplay and a little bit on the pseudo-anime imagery: that latter one to match the kawaii feel of the music), followed by a [[1999]]-trailer-styled mash-up. Some intense, uncommented footage at the start; then a sequence of thematic highlights (with minimal comments); and again some intense stuff right before the end titles.<br />
::I agree with your concept of the overall pacing. However, if we don't point out the differences then people are missing what we've changed; it just looks like we're advertising Oni, which has been out for seven years, and isn't owned by us. I think we need to make it clear that the Edition is a specific set of mods, and why it's worth looking at. There's no harm in pointing out flaws in such an old game, either. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::On the use of "kawaii" here: the second part of the intro uses a pentatonic Asian-ish theme. This section also comes across as cheerful and humorous in a "cute" way after the somewhat dramatic opening.<br />
:::The trailer is not the place for pointing out flaws and making them part of our showcase (with booooorrrrriiiiinnnnggg footage as Loser puts it). ''So what'' if Oni's original AI sucked at pursuit, melee or dodging gunfire - that's not new, and it's not the exact point why people shoud check out the ''Edition'', is it? The point is that in the Edition, they ''do'' behave in a realistic and challenging way, and that's what we want the people to see. Of course, before the footage there'll be a minimal comment saying "faster AI" or something but interleaving before-after and sucks-rocks is anticlimatic IMO. If our stuff looks so awesome and fits in so well that it feels like it's always been there, all the better. If you want to add more insight into why such-and-such feature is a breakthrough, YouTube lets you add annotations to the video after you upload it. Something like "original AI didn't dodge projectiles at all" or "original AI ran much slower than the player". You won't waste time on "artificially lame" footage of pre-Edition Oni, and you won't introduce breaks in our non-stop display of awesomeness ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:50, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
::::I could argue that using Pursuit, and timing the cuts between before-and-after to its rhythm had a good effect, but it's true that I was going for a slower feel. I'm not one of those [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000881/ fast-cutting, rock-music-blaring kind] of editors, I prefer a cooler, more composed approach, such as what you see in the 1999 trailer. But I think I can find a balance between what you and I conceived of. Give me a bit to throw together a draft that uses your opening & music and see how you like it. I am not at full productive capacity yet, post-move, but soon my office will be set up and I can grind something out. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
;Off-topic but not quite:As for what you're doing to Motoko, it may be a good idea to show your results-so-far and report your problems ASAP. Don't let your pride become a major time sink. Also, I haven't gotten back at you on Mutant Griffin: do you want me to, or should I have a look at your latest fixes first?<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 23:59, 28 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::I don't think I made any fixes to his geometry since you called him a mutant. I still would like an explanation on that.<br />
::::[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::I have an email draft lying around but it's not quite finished. Basically, it's about how the OBJ wasn't symmetric in the first place (the head is rotated a bit in the idle pose), about how you broke the mesh apart at the seams when subdividing, and then about how you didn't apply the exact same transformation to left-right vertices in a lot of places, notably on the forehead, whereby he ended up with quite a few asymmetric "horns" (large bumps). Those flaws are all the more noticeable with flat shading, but they scream with the ingame Gouraud as well, especially during the closeups for which the model was intended.<br />
::::His head is supposed to show some of the definition of the eyebrows that comes from the skull, but let's not gum up this page with that discussion. Post something [[Image_talk:Poly_Mods-Griffin_Notes.png|here]] when you find the time and I can respond to it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::What about Motoko?<br />
::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:50, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::Motoko images coming soon. You'll like them, I added some extra polygons just for you ^_^ --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
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<br />
Iritscen: Can you mark on the Trailer page which scenes you already have. Also, as you make progress on the trailer, perhaps you can post it on YouTube, but make it private and just invite certain ones to view it and make comments. This will keep it more of a surprise when it is released. [[User:EdT|EdT]] 05:23, 2 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
:Yes, thanks for the reminder and the suggestion, I will act on those today. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 14:48, 2 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
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Just an update: I am not dead, in case anyone was wondering. I have set up my home office and am funnelling my free time into the video starting now (don't worry, I am fairly fast at this kind of thing). Just keep feeding me video and we can have something by the 20th. If possible, I will still try to record high-quality video to replace the clips that don't meed my standards, but I will work with what I have on hand for now. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 00:18, 10 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
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Okay, I've uploaded a partial trailer draft as a private YouTube video, as was recommended earlier. For now I've only attempted to add EdT and geyser. There seems to be an issue (that many people have) with getting this "private" thing to work, so, guys, check your YouTube Inbox for a friend invite. Until you let me be your special friend, I can't add you for any private videos. I am breaking all kinds of laws of nature and common sense by being up this late, so I'm going to bed, but hopefully YT will be more cooperative tomorrow. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 08:05, 14 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
P.S.: geyser, when you do get to see it, don't be too hard on the editing, the icing has to come after the cake, and besides, there's a lot of refining that I can only do once the real footage is in place. To do it now would be a total waste of time. Maybe I will start recording footage myself tomorrow to help that part move along faster. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 08:07, 14 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I don't intend to criticize anything but the basic ingredients of the video at this point. As for this private YT video mess, come ''on''... a video file on oni2.net or drop.io or wherever would have come so much more naturally (to me, at least). I even had half a mind about ''not'' accepting your friend invite, but then decided not to be a dick. Oh, and thanks in advance for your contribution, but I personally will have big-time real-life priorities during the next week or two, so I highly doubt we'll meet the deadline now. So, no hurry ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 09:57, 14 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:On the subject of deadlines, how far ahead of the actual Edition release do we want the trailer to appear publicly? Not ''too'' far ahead, right? Because then people will drop by the forums, ask about the Edition, and if it's not out yet, they might leave (kids these days have short attention spans, you know ;-). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:03, 14 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:None of my commitments (present, past, or future) are subject to a fanboy-friendly strategy... People with short attention spans will get what they deserve. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:49, 22 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
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Just a little note to all who have contributed video... within the next couple hours, I'll upload the latest draft (see [[AE:Trailer#Iritscen's draft]]), and it '''is''' only that, a rough draft. But it's the first time I filled the entire space of the trailer. And I have to say that there is lots of you guys' video that I couldn't fit into it. So, I hope no one is hurt if their hard work wasn't used; it's simply not possible to show everything. But please know that everything you recorded gave me more options to work with, and that's a real help in and of itself. Then, too, geyser might very well tell me to change out a bunch of clips for other clips before the next draft, so it's not like, if you don't see something of yours in the trailer yet, it's definitely not getting used. Heck, we could make two trailers with all the stuff we've got! Thanks again, [[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:11, 1 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Very nice, you need to post the link to the trailer on OCF. One thing I noted, the transition between the old and new gameplay with the words "seven years later" takes about 9 seconds, to me its too long and takes away the pace of the trailer. Also, there are 2 scenes with theTelekinetic bracelet. But overall, I like the pace of the trailer. Thanks for your work! [[User:EdT|EdT]] 05:13, 1 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
::>_> You didn't use any of my footage...Other than that, you need to watch the pauses in the beginning. My mind automatically puts commas at every pause :P. Also, the ending says "bungie.org" "oni2.net" You need to change the "bungie.org" to "oni.bungie.org" [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 06:18, 1 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::"the transition [...] takes about 9 seconds". Yeah, it is pretty long, but in that respect I was sort of a slave to the soundtrack; it works best with the audio when it lasts that long, plus, in combination with the slowing, monochroming footage before that, you're supposed to feel like time has stopped for Oni... then, suddenly, things burst back into action.<br />
:::"there are 2 scenes with theTelekinetic bracelet." Yeah, and back-to-back, too. Definitely not what I intended to do. I wanted to show Muro with the shotgun, but it so happens I was using the TK bracelet myself. I never actually got him in the air, interestingly. It's hard to get it to work at all, and it was impossible with Muro. But yeah, I have to rearrange the clips or use a different one.<br />
:::"You didn't use any of my footage". Rest assured it wasn't on purpose. I don't know who contributed what, all the videos have been renamed or even reformatted before going into FCE. If you see that I neglected to show a modding feature that you recorded footage of, let me know. I did have to skip some mods for time's sake, but I can be persuaded to change my mind about what to use.<br />
:::"you need to watch the pauses in the beginning". I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by pauses... is it the text in the beginning, saying, "In 2001", etc. etc.?<br />
:::"You need to change the bungie.org to oni.bungie.org" Definitely; I ran out of time to do it in this draft, but I have to remake that text, and when I do, it will direct the viewer to oni.bungie.org. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:20, 1 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
::::It was just OTA and One Small Mistake footage, no big deal. ^_^ Yes, those pauses. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 16:48, 1 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::Oops! I saw you post the OSM video and forgot to add it to my "palette" in Final Cut. That's definitely something I meant to show under the "new challenges" section.<br />
:::::"Yes, those pauses." Then I have to agree with you. Here, too, I can't speed things up without going out of sync with the audio, but I have another solution that prevents the text from feeling, like, it's supposed, to be read, like this :) Ultimately I needed to remake that opening video anyway, so I will just throw in the new approach to the text, too. By the way, is it possible we can provide a better-looking particle for the dish waves, one that's sharper? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:10, 1 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
::::::Let me take a quick looksee into that. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 22:45, 1 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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==Intro and v6 draft==<br />
Preliminary note to Iritscen, on the Matrix-ish tickers: 1) save them for the "seven years later" shot, they're welcome time killers there and mostly distractive elsewhere; 2) make sure they're not just a bunch of katakana and hiragana gibberish - they've supposed to spell out certain taglines in Japanese. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 15:00, 16 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Excellent, thanks to you and Gumby for the high-quality footage. You also did what I was planning to do with the opening text to avoid it being too drawn-out, as Gumby had pointed out. I can't promise that I will use the version with effects, but I will closely mimic it.<br />
:"'''1) save them for the "seven years later" shot'''"<br />
::In other words, you don't want them behind the word "Oni"? I actually preferred the way it looked before, fading to "Oni" with the tickers, as opposed to putting "Oni" on top of Konoko; it just feels a little weird to stick her head in the "O", but if you want it done that way, I'll do it. Just so you know, I wasn't going to use the tickers anywhere else, but you may very well have a point about putting them in with the "seven years later" text, that part is pretty boring without anything else to look at. (P.S., don't forget that the v5 draft was recreating the image from 0:40 in the '99 trailer, for nostalgic/tribute purposes, although I left out the glyph by accident, it was supposed to be in there too.) --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:15, 16 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
:"'''2) make sure they're not just a bunch of katakana and hiragana gibberish'''"<br />
::Don't worry, I did a fair amount of Babelfish-browsing of Japanese sites before I found the text I wanted. It's quite a coherent paragraph, devoted to describing the game. You'll even find Konoko's name in kana if you squint hard enough. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:15, 16 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Oh, geyser, you said in your edit summary that you were working on mini-drafts, but I might save you some work if you wait for the next draft (it'll be done today or tomorrow, I think). I'm replacing a number of clips with ones that look/work better, so you might be working from outdated information by the time you post anything else. Just a heads-up. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:38, 16 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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;On the intro (since it's our only definite segment, let's get it over with)<br />
*The initial "Blam!" is there for a number of good reasons, so just keep it. Feel free to suggest a better opening shot, but the audio is staying. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
*You didn't do justice to the opening text. The supposedly white letters have an odd interlace-ish look while fading in (WTF? is that some subtle effect of yours, or does FCE suck?) and they fade in a bit too fast; the way I see it, the fade-in time should be about the same as the time it would take to Pete Stacker (or whoever) to say it out loud (either solemn or somber and sarcastic, but ''not'' hasty). That, and the pause before "like no other" ought to be a wee bit longer (but much shorter than the one before "was born", as you noticed). Also, I am limited to fading, but you ought to be able to set up some glow or blur (nothing too dramatic, just less plain-looking). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
;On the title, section headers and tickers.<br />
:The tickers will be unreadable unless they scroll past a uniform background (like, black), ''much'' slower and for a longer time - the "seven years later" moment comes readily to mind. As for the kana: in the original tickers, they were interleaved with binary sequences, for readability (basically just put a bunch of zeroes and ones after every sentence or "word", or dots, or any kind of obvious gap). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
:The huge Oni is OK on its own (apart from the fact that upscaled images look worse than in 1:1). However, its interaction with the previous scene is awkward (just as awkward as the head-centered O, if not more). For a title that is overlayed with action, it's aggressively big and all the more anticlimatic as it conceals the most intense part of Konoko's movement. The way I see it, whenever there is an overlay, the text should either be as discreet as possible, or interact with the scene in some way. Arguably, the head in the O may have been a bad idea. Ideally, the logo should appear gradually (and unobtrusively) during the final phase of the ecstasy, as if materializing from the energy she sets in motion all around her. Also, the sloped part of the logo is supposed to be aligned with the perspective. Something like [http://geyser.oni2.net/edition/trailer/intro/trailer_intro_5MB.wmv THIS]... --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
:Also, scrupulously mimicking the main title and "section header" style of the 1998 trailer seems abusive to me. I'd rather use something both simple and original: ultra-fast pacing won't work too well with drawn-out, fancy-styled section headers, especially the way they blow up in the viewer's face ''and stay there'', taking valuable screen time from actual action. See note above about unobtrusiveness. Also note that "c" and "e" look very much alike with your current font and effects, which is a no-no. Either pick a different font (Impact is the best basic font I can think of though) or, better, remove the nostalgic interlace-ish effects. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
;On v6 in general (I can't afford exhaustive verbal feedback, let alone a debate; just a few words here)<br />
:Some good scenes in there, but overall it's still anticlimatic (due to poor/nonexistent audio-video synchronization and/or mediocre on-screen action). It doesn't get any worse than the "dead comrade" scene, but that's of little comfort ^_^ Most of my objections are beyond verbal commentary, so I will just provide you with short drafts or storyboards when I can. Below are just a few points that I think need stressing. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
*After the No One Left To Trust soundtrack kicks in, there ought to be a randomly awesome mixed-bag section without an introduction of any kind (except for the "seven years later"). Right now, you have a (static -_- ) white Spartan chaingunning at the (static -_- ) camera through glass. That's random enough, sure, but it only lasts a split second (''and'' it's static -_- ) and the next moment you start shooting taglines at the viewer... That's strange. Why don't you move some segments of OTA gameplay and gmsly's mod over to the start? Under those thematic headers of yours, they may look more or less out of place, but in opening/closing mixed bags they'll always be at home; and that'll also help you avoid putting three sequences of gmsly's mod one after the other - that, too, is strange. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
*Your coverage of "modding power" was surprising, which is probably a good thing. But there's stuff to edit and polish even there. For example, I'd avoid showing editor views of ripped levels: my current impression is that they scream "big-time EULA violation!", at least if there is no added value; I will try and provide replacement footage using one of [[AE:Levels|our new levels]]. Another issue is Motoko. Her hair still looks like someone barfed a bunch of polygons together, and her face also looks quite rough for its polycount. So I'd think twice before showing her if I were you... just a thought ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
*The ending sucks. My first viewing was a casual one, and I honestly didn't notice the bomber at all. For me it was just another drawn-out OTA scene shot with a boring static camera. The falling bomber and the subsequent explosion are actually very ignorable (people falling, things exploding - just how is that different from the previous minute and a half? ^_^ If you want to show a bomber going off, you have to ''really'' show the bomber going off. There are plenty of ways to capture the explosion in a visually stunning way: you can wear a shield, or go into overpower, or "flee... sexily" like in [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0x7LNwRpvo THIS] video at 2:30. And to top it off the sync of your ending with the music is awful. After the explosion, there's almost a second of intense soundtrack and zero onscreen action. You could have synced the explosion with the end of the music, for instance. But I think the ending needs to be much more intense than that sequence anyway. Something like [http://geyser.oni2.net/edition/trailer/outro_example.wmv THIS] (just an example; other scenes are possibly more fitting, from creative meta-shapeshifting to [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa-h6lXQ-p4 walking Iron Demon]). Note the ending credits: same font everywhere (your alternative use of tall and wide fonts is, well, strange, even without the serifs at the end). "ONi" is admittedly awkward, but I wanted it that way in this version. Eventually we can go for small caps (sans serif please) or for something special like "Bungie's O<small>N</small>i", or we can keep the lowercase "n" (after all, that's the way the logo looked in 1998). The effects and timing of the ending titles are of course primitive. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
*The above problem (poor directing) comes up in a few other places. Muro's shotgun, for example, will be perfectly unintelligible even in lossess 640x480, at that distance. An example of a situation where the appearance of new weapons will be unignorable is the sniper scope (imagine that Striker swinging a shotgun as he runs towards you, or trying to nail you with Muro's Tractor). Oh, and if you're serious about being happy with that "accidentally cinematic" scene (SBG chick with a messed-up TRMA, who spends ''ages'' reloading), or with the DeLorean footage (jerky manual camera and ghost midget in the foreground), then for the sake of all of us, set your sights a little higher. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:15, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
*Last but not least, for a file that's freaking over 80 megs, why the frack is the quality so rock-bottom crappy? Frankly, the compression is killing me, and you know I'm not the picky one... posterized shadows, bleeding colors, omnipresent interlacing... the works! --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Your apology in the last edit summary counts for something, but I still need to say this, geyser. This isn't about who's right or wrong or whether I can take criticism. When you say "This isn't a discussion" in your previous edit summary, what you are saying is, "It's my way or the highway." That's not how collaboration works. I don't work ''for'' you; this isn't an employer/employee relationship. This is me, trying to be helpful because you said you don't have time for editing the final product even though you are apparently trying to do just that, one piece at a time. So, by all means, criticize if you must, but <u>do not</u> try to prevent discussion. It could be that you are afraid of this turning into another "s$^&storm", but if that's the case, then you could simply say, "Let's try to avoid a drawn-out argument". I'm actually pretty damn hard to offend in cases where I think someone meant no harm (and I always give people the benefit of the doubt when it's uncertain whether they meant offense). But decrees about having "no discussion" offend me, geyser. It may well be that you don't have time for discussing all the points you brought up (and my time is precious, too, I am swamped with RL responsibilities right now). But that's <u>not my problem</u>; I can't be expected to care if you have time to follow through on comments that you make when I respond to them. I don't mean that in a confrontational way... it's just how things work. I'm sure that no matter how little time you have, you can respond in dribs and drabs, and if that's all you have time for, well, we're not being held to a deadline like a publisher who announced a release date for a commercial game (and those get pushed back, too); I'm not advocating more delays, I'm just saying, don't take out your frustrations about a lack of time for Oni on me. Now, back on the subject at hand:<br />
<br />
*"synchronization"; sigh. This is a two-prong issue I hoped to avoid talking about, but here goes:<br />
:Issue #1: The audio; this is a chaotic song, with a fast tempo and little beat-differentiation, by which I mean, compare NOLTT to a track from my first trailer draft, "The Hunt"; hear how clear and measured the primary beats are? I find it difficult to hook my editing into the "rhythm" of NOLLT because I can hardly hear which way is up -- so cutting anything on a certain beat feels pointless. That being said, there is some intended and unintended synchro in the video: around 0'30", 0'32", 0'35", 0'38", 0'55.5", 1'03", 1'35", and 1'58". You're right that there is no consistency in the use of synch, though, which leads to...<br />
:Issue #2: Style; there's more than one philosophy to this kind of thing; while the mainstream trend in stuff like music videos is to religiously tie every cut and cool moment to a beat, some professionals prefer to let the music run its course and not perform such obvious edits; that kind of strict synchro approach can feel amateur ("Hey, look how nifty my editing is!"); that being said, some trailer music works great with synched video (Cf. this [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yFJXsywOII Neo Ranga trailer]).<br />
:When I started editing to this hard, grinding music, it felt like I should let the music dictate mood, but not pacing -- in other words, let it drive the overall speed of the cuts and the content of the cuts, but not try to actually make those cuts in time with the music; with a more syncopated piece of audio, I would have gone the other way entirely (and I planned to do so in my original approach to the trailer with my personal picks for music).<br />
*"dead comrade" scene... what, you want an animated arrow pointing from the girl to the body she's looking at, and then an exclamation point popping up above her, and then little radio waves coming from her wrist when she calls for help? I don't know how to make that scene more explanatory, but i you have any <u>ideas</u>, not empty criticism, I'm all ears.<br />
*Re opening the AE footage section with the mixed-bag; you are totally right, I dropped the ball on this one, but will fix that in the next draft.<br />
*Re text that blocks your view when it goes "In your face!" -- yes, this is bad, it wasn't a problem in the '99 trailer because it was on its own screen, going whoosh, then cutting to footage; my text is overlaid on footage to maximize the use of time so it gets in the way and is generally distracting; I guess I will have to find a less obtrusive effect.<br />
*Motoko is still rough in terms of hair, but hopefully that will be fixed before the final trailer comes out and I will pop new footage in there; her face isn't rough at all, you just can't read its contours when it's rendered that way; at least wait until you see it with smoothed normals and textures before having an opinion. Judging her from that style of render is like deciding that a supermodel is unattractive because you only saw her up-close once, with no make-up, having just woken up, under fluorescent light. Yes, it ''is'' like that. That's a very good analogy and I'm proud of it.<br />
*The Iron Demon movie is great, that is a good replacement for what's in the trailer now (that is what you intended, right?).<br />
*Showing an original level in an editor would certainly be better just from a creative standpoint, even if the legal side is not an issue imho<br />
*I didn't cut the "Blam" out because of the picture not being the best choice. The initial "Blam" is some of the most criminally-bad audio I've ever heard in my life. It annoys the crap out of me. There's no way anyone wants to watch a trailer that opens with that sound. I hoped you wouldn't bring that up because I didn't want to tell you how much I hate that sound, but I simply cannot produce a video with that sound in it. The only solution I can imagine (aside from cutting it out like I did) is finding a new "Blam" that doesn't sound like it's coming from the cheap speaker in a child's toy.<br />
*Your Oni effect at the end of the intro shot looks very nice... but keep in mind that it pushes the "reveal" of the name forward in time, which leaves an awkwardly long(er) gap before the footage can start, ''unless'' you just want the classic Oni footage to start earlier, which in turn... makes a longer gap to fill with old game footage before the "seven years" transition. Perhaps it won't be too bad, but I did want to avoid boring people by showing them what they might already be familiar with for too long.<br />
*Muro's shotgun may be kind of far away, but he's shooting at Konoko in the foreground, so the buckshot or whatever you call it is quite evident IMO, so it's clear that there's a new weapon in play; I do see your point about using the sniper scope shot to show off a new weapon; I just don't think it will be very evident. That shot, which I'm quite fond of, is unavoidably shaky, and so would any other scope recording be, so I don't think anyone will notice what he's holding; plus, either it will be swinging up and down as he runs with it, or he'll be pointing it at the camera and you won't see anything because it will be end-on. Plus, I just refuse to replace that sniper shot, it's nearly perfect; or did you think I used the clip with the single falling snowflake by accident?<br />
*"'''SBG chick with a messed-up TRMA, who spends ages reloading'''" How is her TRMA messed up? And she spends about two seconds on stopping and reloading. I happen to think that the motion there is interesting and draws attention to the details of Steve A's great animation; admittedly, not relevant to the AE... and I think this point is moot because I will have to drop the clip before final cut if I can't get a better-quality version (sorry EdT).<br />
*The DeLorean shot is admittedly shaky (sorry again, EdT!), but it was the best drive-by clip I had in acceptable quality because someone wouldn't give me a decent version of the footage they took of the car turning onto a street as the camera ran alongside... I wonder who that was....<br />
*"'''"ONi" is admittedly awkward'''" It beings tears of joy to my eyes to hear you admit that. Re the text I used, I actually thought I was neatly compromising with you by making all three letters capital while preserving the overall heights of the letters in the official Bungie image of the word (and the "i" really looks about the same upper-case as it does lower-case, it's not a letter that changes much between cases, so I don't know why you care about it). I have to say, too, that I understood not a word of what you said in the rest of that paragraph; you asked for a sans serif font... that's what I used! You say "in this version"... you mean, in this trailer? Also, I used four different fonts, yes, but only because I was trying to makes things slightly less boring, and also to present each piece of text in a font that suited it. But if you want, I will use only one typeface for all of it.<br />
*My ending is inferior to your example ending in one respect, which is that in mine, the first words are way too late in appearing onscreen; that was more an accident than intentional, because I threw that new text in right before I saved the cut. I can fix that. Otherwise, I don't see any differences in timing, so if there's something else there you want me to see, you have to point it out.<br />
*'''"rock-bottom crappy", "the compression is killing me", "posterized shadows", "bleeding colors", "omnipresent interlacing"'''. Wow. What can I say, except that I really have no idea what you're talking about? Seriously, this scares me a bit. A couple clips are low-quality, yes... but the compression is excellent (for MPEG-4). If you don't like the darks (not sure I understand your usage of "posterized"), I will save the next one in "OG" Sorenson, it preserves darks much better than MPEG. "Bleeding colors"... you're freakin' colorblind (and so am I)! How could you know if colors are bleeding?! And finally, as to claims of "omnipresent" interlacing, damn you, I had to disprove this thoroughly, so I actually went and counted, and there are 6 clips with interlacing:<br />
#Disarming of green Striker in classic Oni<br />
#Spinning punch to TCTF guy in classic Oni<br />
#Ninja taking out guards in classic Oni (I can fix this one, I chose to blend frames when slowing the speed down, but I can turn that off)<br />
#Parkouring Mukade<br />
#Shapeshifting in glass hall<br />
#Sniper shot to Striker (I think it works favorably here)<br />
:These clips were all recorded by PC users, and it's not my fault your computers have crappy video capture/encoding abilities. Do you honestly think the handful of clips here are detracting from the trailer? Now, if you're being confused by the text that's interlaced, thinking that means the whole video is interlaced, well it's not; it's only the text rendering. I can't explain it, but I ''will'' look into it; it's a strange symptom but hopefully fixable. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:50, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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::Nothing personal, but I really have to go now. Given enough time I still intend to provide mini-drafts covering the full length of the trailer, complete with raw footage. You can interpret that as patronizing if you like, be my guest. Please don't resent the lack of constructive criticism about the "dead comrade" scene or the missing footage for the DeLorean: I already said and released [[AE:Trailer#Basic_idea_for_the_footage|All]] I [[AE:Trailer#Alarm_logic|Could]] in that respect, and I will say and release [[AE:Authoring custom camera animations|more]], eventually. As for all the rest, from [[wikipedia:posterization|posterization]] to [http://geyser.oni2.net/oni1/music/09-Ambient_Suite.mp3 soundtrack] to [http://onimia.ru/doc/game_gallery_res.php?2 TRMA], I ''really'' can't afford to chat, and I'm ''really'' sorry about this. I knew it was a bad idea for me to speak up in the first place, but at least now you can be sure you'll get nothing out of me but constructive silence; communicating/arguing in "dribs and drabs" is not an option for me, and it will actually take me less time to deliver near-final trailer sections. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:59, 24 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:::<big>To geyser primarily, and to anyone else following this discussion secondarily: Please read the following meditatively. Yes, this is a long rant, but it's everything I need to say. And it's the last time I'll rant on anything within this community. I promise that solemnly. After this, there's no need to rant because if this doesn't hit home or have any effect, there's no point in repeating it, and I just have to move on emotionally from this whole thing.</big><br />
<br />
:::I certainly won't take offense at your not being able to reply to all the above points, because I understand the demands of RL; but I think we need to step back and think about this "creative" "process". "'''it was a bad idea for me to speak up in the first place'''". No, I don't think so, because I was refraining from doing more trailer work since I hadn't heard anything from you in so long and I figured you were going to drop The Hammer of Nitpicking™ on me sooner or later (I was right) and there was no point in doing more work that you might end up un-doing.<br />
<br />
:::But what are we doing here, geyser? Does this make sense? Is it really an efficient use of our time to construct the trailer this way? I'm not trying to back out of helping; rather, I am trying to find a good <u>way</u> to help, and this doesn't seem to be helping; I don't feel like I'm helping you. Nothing I do seems able to satisfy you, so you end up having to say, "Not like that, like this," and post another partial video. It's like, instead of my designing a home and building it, I'm building a modular home where someone else has made the pieces, shipped them in, and I just slap them together. This doesn't make sense because if you can assemble the parts yourself using your available tools, what is the point of having me here??? <u>Seriously, I don't know the answer to that question.</u> What am I here for?<br />
<br />
:::Looking at the situation realistically as an adult, don't you see, geyser, that when you can't do something yourself, but have to rely on others for help, you automatically cede some control over that project? That's how everything in this world works. When you give others tasks to do, even as their employer, there comes a time when you have to say, "You know what? We need to keep moving forward, so even if that employee's work is not up to my specs, I'm not them and I can't do their job because I have my own job. Their work is not going to wreck the company, and maybe others will think it's fine that way, so I have to let go of my personal investment in this and just approve it." I know I shouldn't have to tell you that, geyser, but I find myself wondering if you haven't learned that Fact Of Life yet; surely you must have, right? So, if you have... at what point are you going to shrug to yourself and say, "That's not perfect, and it's not how I would do it, but it's good enough"? There has to be a point where that happens or you will never be successful at managing people, either professionally or in the community. They will become fed up and quit. And I'm not suggesting here that you say the trailer draft is fine as-is, that's a wrap, we're done here. I'm referring to the individual parts of the whole; when will any of them be good enough for you?<br />
<br />
:::I sometimes wonder why I have to be the one always saying this stuff; it reminds me of school, in every single grade, where we'd be in a group, and no one wanted to present our work, or be group leader. I didn't want to, either, but I felt obligated by a sense of duty to do so, and so, after an awkward silence, I would always mumble, "I guess I'll do it." And I ''never'' wanted to. And I ''still'' don't. But here I am again. The group was given an assignment: record footage for the trailer. Then, they were given unreasonably specific instructions as to how to do over what they did, but better this time. Eventually, what happened? They stopped helping. Sure, maybe they got busy IRL or with other Oni projects, but maybe they were demoralized by your endless direction. We won't know unless some of them speak up. I have absolutely zero desire to put anyone on the spot or to make them feel embarrassed or pulled into some kind of argument, but, seriously, I can't speak for them, I can only guess at what they were thinking when the awkward silence descended on the AE:Trailer page after a while. The silence said to me, "This is too demanding, I'm just gonna sit this one out now." Maybe I'm wrong, but as is the story of my life, here I am, putting myself out there with the biggest risk because no one else spoke their mind back when you asked (what I thought was) too much of them. Is that unfair of me to say, maybe a little angry? Perhaps. I guess that, as an adult, I thought things would change for me. But they never do.<br />
<br />
:::I will force myself to close up here for now, but I want to answer a question that you may have on your mind, that goes something like, "Then why the crap did you volunteer to help me if you were going to make such an issue out of this?" The answer is, I volunteered to help you because I was ''already making my own trailer'' after reading Gumby's message on the forum conveying your desire for said trailer; I saw no specific direction so I followed my own. I had a format picked out, and music, and I had a short, succinct list of footage I wanted help recording, and I was ready to go to town and have fun. Then I found out you had laid out plans on the wiki already, and in the interests of cooperation I decided to scrap my personal vision for the trailer that excited me and go with yours instead. And I've really tried, geyser, really I have. I have tried to produce a trailer that you could approve of. In some ways, I can still make what I have work better for you, but in most ways I think we are looking at a chasm between us called "a difference in aesthetics", and we will never have a meeting of minds unless you acknowledge reality and say that something is "not perfect, but good enough". Until you can bring yourself to essentially "say uncle" to the facts of the universe, I can't keep working for you. It's just not going to be good for either one of us because we keep going around and around in circles, like Ouroboros consuming itself endlessly. I would have finished this trailer and gotten back to my other projects by now if we worked better together or if I did my own thing. As it is, I don't see any end to this project, and I *need* to see an end. Everyone needs to see an end to something when they have other things they need and want to do.<br />
<br />
:::So, that's it, it's off my chest and in your court. I'm not quitting the project, and I'm not quitting the community. You can fire me from the project, you can act on that Fact Of Life and learn the words "good enough", or we can make our own separate trailers. That's not an ultimatum from me to you, it's a list of the only possible outcomes at this point. I apologize if this rant sounded breathlessly emotional, or if it sounded self-righteous, but there are key issues here that involve much more than just this little trailer and I always believe in clearing the air and addressing issues when it needs to be done. As I said, no more rants after this, ever. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 04:31, 24 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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::::I like your solemn promise. I don't like your analogy with real-life management. You're probably right when you say I suck as a manager and as an adult, even if we take into account conflicting RL priorities and community specifics; but that "sense of duty" ''you'' admitted to is not really the kind of creative motivation I can approve of in the case of this project: it leaves little room for ''actual'' "tender loving care". So. Obviously, there are no jobs and bosses involved here, but consider yourself fired if it makes you feel better: my apologies about the aesthetical chasm and about your wasted time. Now, two separate trailers are an option, but keep in mind that an official trailer can bury Oni just as it can bring it back to life; a half-baked trailer will decredibilize AE as a project, which is bad for the community. That's the main reason why I've been doing my very best and telling others to do so: because our self-esteem at this point in time, and the elaborately self-aware statement that is the trailer, will define whether there's anywhere for us to go from here at all. Advice. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:30, 24 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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:::::I'll add my thoughts, the reason I stopped providing content for the trailer was that it seemed nothing I did was "good enough". I realize that geyser wants the best for the trailer in terms of content and quality and I felt that my skills was not up to the level that geyser wanted. I really appreciate the efforts that Iritscen put into making the trailer and I'm sorry that I couldn't have been of more help. <br />
<br />
:::::I'm not one to complain, but one statement bugs me. geyser said "For example, I'd avoid showing editor views of ripped levels: my current impression is that they scream "big-time EULA violation!" But under Modding Tools the request was "View of levels, characters and weapons in XSI/Cheetah/Blender (for characters and weapons, show a texture editor panel)" Now for that shot of the Lab in Cheetah, I had to manually link over 170 TXMPs to the materials, that took considerable time and now we can't use it.<br />
<br />
:::::Anyways, that's my mini-rant :-)<br />
<br />
:::::To geyser, I want to thank you for skills and knowledge in improving Oni for everyone to enjoy. Especially, you don't forget about the few Mac fans, and for that I'm grateful.<br />
<br />
:::::[[User:EdT|EdT]] 06:43, 24 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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:::::I want to second Ed in thanking you for the work you do in the community, geyser, and for not overlooking Mac users, and I hope you are not dis-spirited by my rebellion up there ^ but at least we have come to terms. Touching on what Ed said, it could well be that I lack the skills you need; it was somewhat egotistical of me to suggest that our only difference could be aesthetics and not skill level. One small clarification: when I used the word "duty", I meant that I felt a sense of duty to speak up, even to dare to speak for others when I might be wrong about their feelings, because I felt it had fallen on my shoulders to do so (even if it hadn't and I'm just a pompous ass for thinking so). The original motivation for starting work on a trailer was less duty-related and more enthusiasm-related, but there was duty there too -- I won't expand on that, to avoid rant territory.<br />
:::::But I see that you feel a strong sense of duty when it comes to representing Oni too, and I certainly respect that, of course. It may well be that, regardless of whether or not I could produce a decent trailer, my time would be better spent making (or finishing) things that maybe one day will be ''worthy'' of being put in a trailer, if that trailer-making person likes them, by some small chance :-) --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 07:30, 24 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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:::::lol guys, I am too lazy to thank you all every single day I happen to enter this wiki! From my personal point of view you three have a unique quality in common: you are unable to put aside your conscience, in everything you do, with the all people you happen to interact with. Now you are facing two kind of problems: first, your penchant for intelligent talk is slowly eating all your spare time. Second, creative partnerships usually turn into real friendships, and you (especially Geyser) are just afraid of trespassing that line - as well as of its consequences. [[User:Guido|Guido]] 21:35, 25 September 2008 (CET)<br />
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::::::ahem... Guido, I only made 3 short posts on this page, so don't include me in the expression "your penchant for intelligent talk is slowly eating all your spare time" lol [[User:EdT|EdT]] 01:19, 26 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::::: haha, I can give you that, EdT. [[User:Guido|Guido]<br />
:::::::At least both of them (Irtiscen and geyser) want the best for Oni modding....even if they express it in different ways/priorities. :) [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 01:39, 26 September 2008 (CEST)</div>Guidohttps://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=AE_talk:Trailer&diff=11824AE talk:Trailer2008-09-25T19:36:27Z<p>Guido: shitstorms are banned here.</p>
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<div>Geyser, I may be able to record that sequence at a better quality. Increasing the resolution of the texture used may help too. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 01:30, 28 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
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Hmm, didn't see this until just now. I assume you must have seen my trailer draft, geyser (linked to from my User page). Do you still prefer to see the trailer done this way, having seen that? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:28, 28 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
:Gumby, feel free to re-record that scene. I believe I made it easy enough to replicate so it can be recorded in no time. I also think that sequence works quite nicely all the way to the "Oni" logo (also a placeholder for original Oni footage), except for the cheap-looking titles and the lack of animation for the logo itself (the large size will be OK as long as it pops up in some drop-dead-gorgeous fashion)... As for the textures of the glowing rings, on a good GFX card, with antialiasing and smart texturing and such it should look quite decent. If not, we can always rerecord this one scene with better textures closer to the deadline.<br />
<br />
:Iritscen, about your take on the trailer: I was notified of the forum thread by Gumby; other than that, I've been pretty much absent from everywhere including this wiki, barely ever looking at Recentchanges or such). As for your draft, the short answer is yes. I prefer "my" idea of the trailer over "yours". I have three major things to say and three minor ones.<br />
<br />
;Minor thing number zero:overcapitalization. "Coming Soon..." and "Watch For It"? WTF?<br />
::Heh. I am not too attached to those two titles either. Watch For It is kinda corny and Coming Soon is arguably superfluous. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
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;Minor thing number one:"we've been busy for the past 7 years and 7 months"... Huh. Not like I don't respect the early Oni modders, but organized modding as we know it didn't happen until a couple of years ago (and as for the "we've been busy", we're still nowhere close to productive teamwork if you ask me).<br />
::I wondered what the reaction to that line would be. As with the other opening text, I threw it in without any forethought just so I could present my draft (not knowing about yours at the time). The "seven years, seven months" sounds good, but admittedly I was shooting in the dark because I wasn't around back then and didn't know what was being done. So yeah, I won't defend that. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
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;Minor thing number two:preposterous release date. It's the trailer that will "air" by the end of August, and that if we're VERY VERY VERY lucky and hard-working and cooperative and inspired and talented and and and... and as for AE, I wouldn't expect it to come in time even for the 8th anniversary in January... that's why I stopped calling it the 7th Anniversary Edition a long time ago, preferring "Anniversary Edition" or "Edition". But that doesn't matter. Whenever we'll release it, it will still have Bungie's one ond only seven in the main menu background. "Anniversary Edition: it's a seven" - even if we release it 2 or 3 years from now.<br />
::I don't see why we can't at least get the trailer out soon; I mean, I wasn't planning personally on making a trailer that was exhaustive, just a nice sneak peek at some of what the AE may or may not offer (since what doesn't get packaged with the AE can be released on its own, so it's not all that dishonest to advertise those mods too, since they will run off the Edition framework). I am a little disappointed at your pushing back of the Edition. I think the first time I ever contacted you, by PM, I suggested that you release iterative Editions, one a year, with the latest mods available as of that time. You saw that as a lot of work, but I saw it as a simple matter of slapping some files together that were already done, and releasing the package once a year. I still would like you to consider releasing what you have now (or in the near future), and improving on that later. Just use version numbers or years ("Anniversary Edition '08") so people can keep them straight. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::You know I used to make releases before January, but I've also been paying attention to the feedback, and it just so happens that some of the features so far are flawed (buggy/crashy) and/or controversial. I know lame when I see lame, and I will *not* showcase or officially release lame (or controversial), because that would be the end of us. We need more thorough checking (e.g., Loser's modded TRAM cause memory corruption and Loser is apparently too busy with new stuff to double-check or fix that ^_^), and we need modular installation options (i.e., a truly powerful frontend for OniSplit on both PC and Mac, and probably an OniSplit 1.0 core to go with it). We don't have that now, and I don't know when we will, so I don't even want to think of a release date now. Just to make it clear again: the minimal set of AE is a solid modding mainframe, and a couple of equally solid upgrades (preferably modular/optional).<br />
::::Okay, I take your point about not introducing mods that corrupt memory/add controversial features (knockdown mod, anyone? ;-). And we see eye-to-eye on what the Edition is, as described in your last sentence above. Not sure if it answers my question, though, as to whether the "extended" features, mods that run off the AE framework, will be in the trailer. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::Doesn't my stuff right below answer your question either? Just what extended features are we talking about, and how random can we allow them to be? I'd say one of two glimpses of totally random modding is OK, but otherwise the trailer will fall apart. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:35, 30 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
::::::I like specificity. Check the Trailer page for my list, and let's work from that to determine what will be in the trailer. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:32, 30 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::As for the more or less random (and lame?) mods cluttering up the trailer, just what kind of attention do you think they'd get us? We're not making a trailer for OniSplit-powered goofing, for sake's sake. No one needs a trailer that doesn't look awesome, so if it's not awesome by the August 21 deadline, I'll postpone it. I hope I won't have to though. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:50, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
::::Well, I wouldn't show anything that's not awesome either, or at least cool. And it's interesting to suddenly see a deadline I had no inkling of ^_^' Not that it would be hard to meet the deadline on the editing side, as long as we decide soon what exactly we will show and then get that footage recorded pronto (I've already received some footage I wanted to use, in the "trailer" thread on the forum, but I think I need to get a better idea of which features you want to show before I go to the trouble of incorporating that footage). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::'''And it's interesting to suddenly see a deadline I had no inkling of''' Whoever made your trailer draft was fully aware of the "7 years and 7 months", so who the blam is ''this'' joke on? Re: I'll try to set up a brain dump of wanted scenes tonight. For now, may I just advise everyone involved or interested to have a second look at this, which I think was understressed in the forum thread:<br />
'''Content'''<br />
Basically a sequence of feature highlights, each of them rather short, announced by similar-looking full-screen titles. <br />
''Nice-looking and varied locations are a plus (e.g., if you want to show new AI skills, '''don't do it all in the Warehouse''').'' <br />
Content doesn't necessary have to be in-game Oni (''can be an external render or an editor view''), as long as it looks good. <br />
''Animated video is not a must'' (e.g., an ultra-quick slideshow is fine). ''Varied viewing angles and camera effects welcome.''<br />
::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:35, 30 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
;Major thing number zero:the music. Hunt is sluggish and Pursuit also lacks some energy. As you can see from wiki history and maybe even OCF history, the "Ambient Suite - No One Left To Trust" mix came up quite some time ago (it's been brewing practically since January AFAIR). NOLTT is typical Power Of Seven, mainstream enough to sound familiar to those who "hate techno", powerful enough to drive an action-packed trailer, and to top it off it's a track from Oni's early days, which didn't make it either into Oni or onto the promotional CD. Ambient Suite is a nice mixing effort on the part of Salvatori or O'Donnell or whoever, it features unfamiliar samples that don't appear ingame, and its movements allow for creatively synchronized titles. I have always been intrigued by the redundant intro, so I naturally came to use the twin explosions as the basic markers. As for the ending, I didn't actually sync it at all: Ambient Suite is just muted while NOLTT plays, and then kicks back in. So the music for the end titles is just a lucky coincidence.<br />
::...I guess this is just a difference in taste. I won't go into why I prefer my selections in music, though. Since they don't seem to work for you like they do for me, I would be willing to mix the trailer with the music you used. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
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;Major thing number one: your draft is overly verbose at the beginning, which can be come across as long-winded, anticlimatic, or even aggressively "commercial", depending on the amount and type of words you use. Sure we want to advertise a bit, but we don't want to sound like those release-period reviews that are actually part of a game's promotional campaign. Actually, your trailer is pretty much a manifesto of our "team", and it's not bad... for a manifesto... but I think we need something lighter and more artful at the same time. Something closer to Oni's [[1998]] trailer if you like: let the visuals speak for themselves as much as possible. I'm not saying my intro is perfect, but I like how the sound samples match the phases of the footage, and there's a hidden "let's go back in time" meaning to the reversed cutscene: in order to have a second look at Oni, start where it all ended, literally... and then rewind a bit.<br />
::I should have mentioned earlier that I really like the intro you used — it's a good visual, and not bogged down in words like my intro, ''although'' it's potentially spoiler-ish for those who never played Oni. Does that matter? Not necessarily, if we're aiming this at existing Oni fans. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::Given the lack of backstory, I think it's your typical teaser: people are intrigued by the flow of energy, then see the transmitter, and then take a short look at the back of some super-chick surrounded by dead bodies, somehow connected to the transmitter: that said, I'm pretty sure many people discovered Oni after watching the spoilerful Resurrection; after all, the fun of Oni is mostly about the gameplay, and you can't really spoil that; oh, and the plot is largely understated, so there's not much to spoil there anyway ^_^<br />
::::Yeah, I suppose you're right. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
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;Major thing number two:I don't think much of the side-by-side comparison of the highlighted upgrades. Specifically, while we should certainly do our best to make the Edition's content/gameplay look awesome, it's not a good move at all to try and make Oni look dull/dumb by contrast. That's why I opted for a quick overview of Oni's original awesomeness (with a focus on the unique gameplay and a little bit on the pseudo-anime imagery: that latter one to match the kawaii feel of the music), followed by a [[1999]]-trailer-styled mash-up. Some intense, uncommented footage at the start; then a sequence of thematic highlights (with minimal comments); and again some intense stuff right before the end titles.<br />
::I agree with your concept of the overall pacing. However, if we don't point out the differences then people are missing what we've changed; it just looks like we're advertising Oni, which has been out for seven years, and isn't owned by us. I think we need to make it clear that the Edition is a specific set of mods, and why it's worth looking at. There's no harm in pointing out flaws in such an old game, either. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::On the use of "kawaii" here: the second part of the intro uses a pentatonic Asian-ish theme. This section also comes across as cheerful and humorous in a "cute" way after the somewhat dramatic opening.<br />
:::The trailer is not the place for pointing out flaws and making them part of our showcase (with booooorrrrriiiiinnnnggg footage as Loser puts it). ''So what'' if Oni's original AI sucked at pursuit, melee or dodging gunfire - that's not new, and it's not the exact point why people shoud check out the ''Edition'', is it? The point is that in the Edition, they ''do'' behave in a realistic and challenging way, and that's what we want the people to see. Of course, before the footage there'll be a minimal comment saying "faster AI" or something but interleaving before-after and sucks-rocks is anticlimatic IMO. If our stuff looks so awesome and fits in so well that it feels like it's always been there, all the better. If you want to add more insight into why such-and-such feature is a breakthrough, YouTube lets you add annotations to the video after you upload it. Something like "original AI didn't dodge projectiles at all" or "original AI ran much slower than the player". You won't waste time on "artificially lame" footage of pre-Edition Oni, and you won't introduce breaks in our non-stop display of awesomeness ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:50, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
::::I could argue that using Pursuit, and timing the cuts between before-and-after to its rhythm had a good effect, but it's true that I was going for a slower feel. I'm not one of those [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000881/ fast-cutting, rock-music-blaring kind] of editors, I prefer a cooler, more composed approach, such as what you see in the 1999 trailer. But I think I can find a balance between what you and I conceived of. Give me a bit to throw together a draft that uses your opening & music and see how you like it. I am not at full productive capacity yet, post-move, but soon my office will be set up and I can grind something out. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
;Off-topic but not quite:As for what you're doing to Motoko, it may be a good idea to show your results-so-far and report your problems ASAP. Don't let your pride become a major time sink. Also, I haven't gotten back at you on Mutant Griffin: do you want me to, or should I have a look at your latest fixes first?<br />
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 23:59, 28 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::I don't think I made any fixes to his geometry since you called him a mutant. I still would like an explanation on that.<br />
::::[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::I have an email draft lying around but it's not quite finished. Basically, it's about how the OBJ wasn't symmetric in the first place (the head is rotated a bit in the idle pose), about how you broke the mesh apart at the seams when subdividing, and then about how you didn't apply the exact same transformation to left-right vertices in a lot of places, notably on the forehead, whereby he ended up with quite a few asymmetric "horns" (large bumps). Those flaws are all the more noticeable with flat shading, but they scream with the ingame Gouraud as well, especially during the closeups for which the model was intended.<br />
::::His head is supposed to show some of the definition of the eyebrows that comes from the skull, but let's not gum up this page with that discussion. Post something [[Image_talk:Poly_Mods-Griffin_Notes.png|here]] when you find the time and I can respond to it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::What about Motoko?<br />
::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:50, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::Motoko images coming soon. You'll like them, I added some extra polygons just for you ^_^ --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)<br />
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<br />
Iritscen: Can you mark on the Trailer page which scenes you already have. Also, as you make progress on the trailer, perhaps you can post it on YouTube, but make it private and just invite certain ones to view it and make comments. This will keep it more of a surprise when it is released. [[User:EdT|EdT]] 05:23, 2 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
:Yes, thanks for the reminder and the suggestion, I will act on those today. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 14:48, 2 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
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Just an update: I am not dead, in case anyone was wondering. I have set up my home office and am funnelling my free time into the video starting now (don't worry, I am fairly fast at this kind of thing). Just keep feeding me video and we can have something by the 20th. If possible, I will still try to record high-quality video to replace the clips that don't meed my standards, but I will work with what I have on hand for now. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 00:18, 10 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
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Okay, I've uploaded a partial trailer draft as a private YouTube video, as was recommended earlier. For now I've only attempted to add EdT and geyser. There seems to be an issue (that many people have) with getting this "private" thing to work, so, guys, check your YouTube Inbox for a friend invite. Until you let me be your special friend, I can't add you for any private videos. I am breaking all kinds of laws of nature and common sense by being up this late, so I'm going to bed, but hopefully YT will be more cooperative tomorrow. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 08:05, 14 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
P.S.: geyser, when you do get to see it, don't be too hard on the editing, the icing has to come after the cake, and besides, there's a lot of refining that I can only do once the real footage is in place. To do it now would be a total waste of time. Maybe I will start recording footage myself tomorrow to help that part move along faster. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 08:07, 14 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I don't intend to criticize anything but the basic ingredients of the video at this point. As for this private YT video mess, come ''on''... a video file on oni2.net or drop.io or wherever would have come so much more naturally (to me, at least). I even had half a mind about ''not'' accepting your friend invite, but then decided not to be a dick. Oh, and thanks in advance for your contribution, but I personally will have big-time real-life priorities during the next week or two, so I highly doubt we'll meet the deadline now. So, no hurry ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 09:57, 14 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:On the subject of deadlines, how far ahead of the actual Edition release do we want the trailer to appear publicly? Not ''too'' far ahead, right? Because then people will drop by the forums, ask about the Edition, and if it's not out yet, they might leave (kids these days have short attention spans, you know ;-). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:03, 14 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
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:None of my commitments (present, past, or future) are subject to a fanboy-friendly strategy... People with short attention spans will get what they deserve. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:49, 22 August 2008 (CEST)<br />
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Just a little note to all who have contributed video... within the next couple hours, I'll upload the latest draft (see [[AE:Trailer#Iritscen's draft]]), and it '''is''' only that, a rough draft. But it's the first time I filled the entire space of the trailer. And I have to say that there is lots of you guys' video that I couldn't fit into it. So, I hope no one is hurt if their hard work wasn't used; it's simply not possible to show everything. But please know that everything you recorded gave me more options to work with, and that's a real help in and of itself. Then, too, geyser might very well tell me to change out a bunch of clips for other clips before the next draft, so it's not like, if you don't see something of yours in the trailer yet, it's definitely not getting used. Heck, we could make two trailers with all the stuff we've got! Thanks again, [[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:11, 1 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Very nice, you need to post the link to the trailer on OCF. One thing I noted, the transition between the old and new gameplay with the words "seven years later" takes about 9 seconds, to me its too long and takes away the pace of the trailer. Also, there are 2 scenes with theTelekinetic bracelet. But overall, I like the pace of the trailer. Thanks for your work! [[User:EdT|EdT]] 05:13, 1 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
::>_> You didn't use any of my footage...Other than that, you need to watch the pauses in the beginning. My mind automatically puts commas at every pause :P. Also, the ending says "bungie.org" "oni2.net" You need to change the "bungie.org" to "oni.bungie.org" [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 06:18, 1 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::"the transition [...] takes about 9 seconds". Yeah, it is pretty long, but in that respect I was sort of a slave to the soundtrack; it works best with the audio when it lasts that long, plus, in combination with the slowing, monochroming footage before that, you're supposed to feel like time has stopped for Oni... then, suddenly, things burst back into action.<br />
:::"there are 2 scenes with theTelekinetic bracelet." Yeah, and back-to-back, too. Definitely not what I intended to do. I wanted to show Muro with the shotgun, but it so happens I was using the TK bracelet myself. I never actually got him in the air, interestingly. It's hard to get it to work at all, and it was impossible with Muro. But yeah, I have to rearrange the clips or use a different one.<br />
:::"You didn't use any of my footage". Rest assured it wasn't on purpose. I don't know who contributed what, all the videos have been renamed or even reformatted before going into FCE. If you see that I neglected to show a modding feature that you recorded footage of, let me know. I did have to skip some mods for time's sake, but I can be persuaded to change my mind about what to use.<br />
:::"you need to watch the pauses in the beginning". I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by pauses... is it the text in the beginning, saying, "In 2001", etc. etc.?<br />
:::"You need to change the bungie.org to oni.bungie.org" Definitely; I ran out of time to do it in this draft, but I have to remake that text, and when I do, it will direct the viewer to oni.bungie.org. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:20, 1 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
::::It was just OTA and One Small Mistake footage, no big deal. ^_^ Yes, those pauses. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 16:48, 1 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
:::::Oops! I saw you post the OSM video and forgot to add it to my "palette" in Final Cut. That's definitely something I meant to show under the "new challenges" section.<br />
:::::"Yes, those pauses." Then I have to agree with you. Here, too, I can't speed things up without going out of sync with the audio, but I have another solution that prevents the text from feeling, like, it's supposed, to be read, like this :) Ultimately I needed to remake that opening video anyway, so I will just throw in the new approach to the text, too. By the way, is it possible we can provide a better-looking particle for the dish waves, one that's sharper? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:10, 1 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
::::::Let me take a quick looksee into that. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 22:45, 1 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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==Intro and v6 draft==<br />
Preliminary note to Iritscen, on the Matrix-ish tickers: 1) save them for the "seven years later" shot, they're welcome time killers there and mostly distractive elsewhere; 2) make sure they're not just a bunch of katakana and hiragana gibberish - they've supposed to spell out certain taglines in Japanese. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 15:00, 16 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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:Excellent, thanks to you and Gumby for the high-quality footage. You also did what I was planning to do with the opening text to avoid it being too drawn-out, as Gumby had pointed out. I can't promise that I will use the version with effects, but I will closely mimic it.<br />
:"'''1) save them for the "seven years later" shot'''"<br />
::In other words, you don't want them behind the word "Oni"? I actually preferred the way it looked before, fading to "Oni" with the tickers, as opposed to putting "Oni" on top of Konoko; it just feels a little weird to stick her head in the "O", but if you want it done that way, I'll do it. Just so you know, I wasn't going to use the tickers anywhere else, but you may very well have a point about putting them in with the "seven years later" text, that part is pretty boring without anything else to look at. (P.S., don't forget that the v5 draft was recreating the image from 0:40 in the '99 trailer, for nostalgic/tribute purposes, although I left out the glyph by accident, it was supposed to be in there too.) --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:15, 16 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
:"'''2) make sure they're not just a bunch of katakana and hiragana gibberish'''"<br />
::Don't worry, I did a fair amount of Babelfish-browsing of Japanese sites before I found the text I wanted. It's quite a coherent paragraph, devoted to describing the game. You'll even find Konoko's name in kana if you squint hard enough. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:15, 16 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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:Oh, geyser, you said in your edit summary that you were working on mini-drafts, but I might save you some work if you wait for the next draft (it'll be done today or tomorrow, I think). I'm replacing a number of clips with ones that look/work better, so you might be working from outdated information by the time you post anything else. Just a heads-up. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:38, 16 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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;On the intro (since it's our only definite segment, let's get it over with)<br />
*The initial "Blam!" is there for a number of good reasons, so just keep it. Feel free to suggest a better opening shot, but the audio is staying. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
*You didn't do justice to the opening text. The supposedly white letters have an odd interlace-ish look while fading in (WTF? is that some subtle effect of yours, or does FCE suck?) and they fade in a bit too fast; the way I see it, the fade-in time should be about the same as the time it would take to Pete Stacker (or whoever) to say it out loud (either solemn or somber and sarcastic, but ''not'' hasty). That, and the pause before "like no other" ought to be a wee bit longer (but much shorter than the one before "was born", as you noticed). Also, I am limited to fading, but you ought to be able to set up some glow or blur (nothing too dramatic, just less plain-looking). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
;On the title, section headers and tickers.<br />
:The tickers will be unreadable unless they scroll past a uniform background (like, black), ''much'' slower and for a longer time - the "seven years later" moment comes readily to mind. As for the kana: in the original tickers, they were interleaved with binary sequences, for readability (basically just put a bunch of zeroes and ones after every sentence or "word", or dots, or any kind of obvious gap). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
:The huge Oni is OK on its own (apart from the fact that upscaled images look worse than in 1:1). However, its interaction with the previous scene is awkward (just as awkward as the head-centered O, if not more). For a title that is overlayed with action, it's aggressively big and all the more anticlimatic as it conceals the most intense part of Konoko's movement. The way I see it, whenever there is an overlay, the text should either be as discreet as possible, or interact with the scene in some way. Arguably, the head in the O may have been a bad idea. Ideally, the logo should appear gradually (and unobtrusively) during the final phase of the ecstasy, as if materializing from the energy she sets in motion all around her. Also, the sloped part of the logo is supposed to be aligned with the perspective. Something like [http://geyser.oni2.net/edition/trailer/intro/trailer_intro_5MB.wmv THIS]... --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
:Also, scrupulously mimicking the main title and "section header" style of the 1998 trailer seems abusive to me. I'd rather use something both simple and original: ultra-fast pacing won't work too well with drawn-out, fancy-styled section headers, especially the way they blow up in the viewer's face ''and stay there'', taking valuable screen time from actual action. See note above about unobtrusiveness. Also note that "c" and "e" look very much alike with your current font and effects, which is a no-no. Either pick a different font (Impact is the best basic font I can think of though) or, better, remove the nostalgic interlace-ish effects. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
;On v6 in general (I can't afford exhaustive verbal feedback, let alone a debate; just a few words here)<br />
:Some good scenes in there, but overall it's still anticlimatic (due to poor/nonexistent audio-video synchronization and/or mediocre on-screen action). It doesn't get any worse than the "dead comrade" scene, but that's of little comfort ^_^ Most of my objections are beyond verbal commentary, so I will just provide you with short drafts or storyboards when I can. Below are just a few points that I think need stressing. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
*After the No One Left To Trust soundtrack kicks in, there ought to be a randomly awesome mixed-bag section without an introduction of any kind (except for the "seven years later"). Right now, you have a (static -_- ) white Spartan chaingunning at the (static -_- ) camera through glass. That's random enough, sure, but it only lasts a split second (''and'' it's static -_- ) and the next moment you start shooting taglines at the viewer... That's strange. Why don't you move some segments of OTA gameplay and gmsly's mod over to the start? Under those thematic headers of yours, they may look more or less out of place, but in opening/closing mixed bags they'll always be at home; and that'll also help you avoid putting three sequences of gmsly's mod one after the other - that, too, is strange. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
*Your coverage of "modding power" was surprising, which is probably a good thing. But there's stuff to edit and polish even there. For example, I'd avoid showing editor views of ripped levels: my current impression is that they scream "big-time EULA violation!", at least if there is no added value; I will try and provide replacement footage using one of [[AE:Levels|our new levels]]. Another issue is Motoko. Her hair still looks like someone barfed a bunch of polygons together, and her face also looks quite rough for its polycount. So I'd think twice before showing her if I were you... just a thought ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
*The ending sucks. My first viewing was a casual one, and I honestly didn't notice the bomber at all. For me it was just another drawn-out OTA scene shot with a boring static camera. The falling bomber and the subsequent explosion are actually very ignorable (people falling, things exploding - just how is that different from the previous minute and a half? ^_^ If you want to show a bomber going off, you have to ''really'' show the bomber going off. There are plenty of ways to capture the explosion in a visually stunning way: you can wear a shield, or go into overpower, or "flee... sexily" like in [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0x7LNwRpvo THIS] video at 2:30. And to top it off the sync of your ending with the music is awful. After the explosion, there's almost a second of intense soundtrack and zero onscreen action. You could have synced the explosion with the end of the music, for instance. But I think the ending needs to be much more intense than that sequence anyway. Something like [http://geyser.oni2.net/edition/trailer/outro_example.wmv THIS] (just an example; other scenes are possibly more fitting, from creative meta-shapeshifting to [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa-h6lXQ-p4 walking Iron Demon]). Note the ending credits: same font everywhere (your alternative use of tall and wide fonts is, well, strange, even without the serifs at the end). "ONi" is admittedly awkward, but I wanted it that way in this version. Eventually we can go for small caps (sans serif please) or for something special like "Bungie's O<small>N</small>i", or we can keep the lowercase "n" (after all, that's the way the logo looked in 1998). The effects and timing of the ending titles are of course primitive. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
*The above problem (poor directing) comes up in a few other places. Muro's shotgun, for example, will be perfectly unintelligible even in lossess 640x480, at that distance. An example of a situation where the appearance of new weapons will be unignorable is the sniper scope (imagine that Striker swinging a shotgun as he runs towards you, or trying to nail you with Muro's Tractor). Oh, and if you're serious about being happy with that "accidentally cinematic" scene (SBG chick with a messed-up TRMA, who spends ''ages'' reloading), or with the DeLorean footage (jerky manual camera and ghost midget in the foreground), then for the sake of all of us, set your sights a little higher. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:15, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
*Last but not least, for a file that's freaking over 80 megs, why the frack is the quality so rock-bottom crappy? Frankly, the compression is killing me, and you know I'm not the picky one... posterized shadows, bleeding colors, omnipresent interlacing... the works! --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Your apology in the last edit summary counts for something, but I still need to say this, geyser. This isn't about who's right or wrong or whether I can take criticism. When you say "This isn't a discussion" in your previous edit summary, what you are saying is, "It's my way or the highway." That's not how collaboration works. I don't work ''for'' you; this isn't an employer/employee relationship. This is me, trying to be helpful because you said you don't have time for editing the final product even though you are apparently trying to do just that, one piece at a time. So, by all means, criticize if you must, but <u>do not</u> try to prevent discussion. It could be that you are afraid of this turning into another "s$^&storm", but if that's the case, then you could simply say, "Let's try to avoid a drawn-out argument". I'm actually pretty damn hard to offend in cases where I think someone meant no harm (and I always give people the benefit of the doubt when it's uncertain whether they meant offense). But decrees about having "no discussion" offend me, geyser. It may well be that you don't have time for discussing all the points you brought up (and my time is precious, too, I am swamped with RL responsibilities right now). But that's <u>not my problem</u>; I can't be expected to care if you have time to follow through on comments that you make when I respond to them. I don't mean that in a confrontational way... it's just how things work. I'm sure that no matter how little time you have, you can respond in dribs and drabs, and if that's all you have time for, well, we're not being held to a deadline like a publisher who announced a release date for a commercial game (and those get pushed back, too); I'm not advocating more delays, I'm just saying, don't take out your frustrations about a lack of time for Oni on me. Now, back on the subject at hand:<br />
<br />
*"synchronization"; sigh. This is a two-prong issue I hoped to avoid talking about, but here goes:<br />
:Issue #1: The audio; this is a chaotic song, with a fast tempo and little beat-differentiation, by which I mean, compare NOLTT to a track from my first trailer draft, "The Hunt"; hear how clear and measured the primary beats are? I find it difficult to hook my editing into the "rhythm" of NOLLT because I can hardly hear which way is up -- so cutting anything on a certain beat feels pointless. That being said, there is some intended and unintended synchro in the video: around 0'30", 0'32", 0'35", 0'38", 0'55.5", 1'03", 1'35", and 1'58". You're right that there is no consistency in the use of synch, though, which leads to...<br />
:Issue #2: Style; there's more than one philosophy to this kind of thing; while the mainstream trend in stuff like music videos is to religiously tie every cut and cool moment to a beat, some professionals prefer to let the music run its course and not perform such obvious edits; that kind of strict synchro approach can feel amateur ("Hey, look how nifty my editing is!"); that being said, some trailer music works great with synched video (Cf. this [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yFJXsywOII Neo Ranga trailer]).<br />
:When I started editing to this hard, grinding music, it felt like I should let the music dictate mood, but not pacing -- in other words, let it drive the overall speed of the cuts and the content of the cuts, but not try to actually make those cuts in time with the music; with a more syncopated piece of audio, I would have gone the other way entirely (and I planned to do so in my original approach to the trailer with my personal picks for music).<br />
*"dead comrade" scene... what, you want an animated arrow pointing from the girl to the body she's looking at, and then an exclamation point popping up above her, and then little radio waves coming from her wrist when she calls for help? I don't know how to make that scene more explanatory, but i you have any <u>ideas</u>, not empty criticism, I'm all ears.<br />
*Re opening the AE footage section with the mixed-bag; you are totally right, I dropped the ball on this one, but will fix that in the next draft.<br />
*Re text that blocks your view when it goes "In your face!" -- yes, this is bad, it wasn't a problem in the '99 trailer because it was on its own screen, going whoosh, then cutting to footage; my text is overlaid on footage to maximize the use of time so it gets in the way and is generally distracting; I guess I will have to find a less obtrusive effect.<br />
*Motoko is still rough in terms of hair, but hopefully that will be fixed before the final trailer comes out and I will pop new footage in there; her face isn't rough at all, you just can't read its contours when it's rendered that way; at least wait until you see it with smoothed normals and textures before having an opinion. Judging her from that style of render is like deciding that a supermodel is unattractive because you only saw her up-close once, with no make-up, having just woken up, under fluorescent light. Yes, it ''is'' like that. That's a very good analogy and I'm proud of it.<br />
*The Iron Demon movie is great, that is a good replacement for what's in the trailer now (that is what you intended, right?).<br />
*Showing an original level in an editor would certainly be better just from a creative standpoint, even if the legal side is not an issue imho<br />
*I didn't cut the "Blam" out because of the picture not being the best choice. The initial "Blam" is some of the most criminally-bad audio I've ever heard in my life. It annoys the crap out of me. There's no way anyone wants to watch a trailer that opens with that sound. I hoped you wouldn't bring that up because I didn't want to tell you how much I hate that sound, but I simply cannot produce a video with that sound in it. The only solution I can imagine (aside from cutting it out like I did) is finding a new "Blam" that doesn't sound like it's coming from the cheap speaker in a child's toy.<br />
*Your Oni effect at the end of the intro shot looks very nice... but keep in mind that it pushes the "reveal" of the name forward in time, which leaves an awkwardly long(er) gap before the footage can start, ''unless'' you just want the classic Oni footage to start earlier, which in turn... makes a longer gap to fill with old game footage before the "seven years" transition. Perhaps it won't be too bad, but I did want to avoid boring people by showing them what they might already be familiar with for too long.<br />
*Muro's shotgun may be kind of far away, but he's shooting at Konoko in the foreground, so the buckshot or whatever you call it is quite evident IMO, so it's clear that there's a new weapon in play; I do see your point about using the sniper scope shot to show off a new weapon; I just don't think it will be very evident. That shot, which I'm quite fond of, is unavoidably shaky, and so would any other scope recording be, so I don't think anyone will notice what he's holding; plus, either it will be swinging up and down as he runs with it, or he'll be pointing it at the camera and you won't see anything because it will be end-on. Plus, I just refuse to replace that sniper shot, it's nearly perfect; or did you think I used the clip with the single falling snowflake by accident?<br />
*"'''SBG chick with a messed-up TRMA, who spends ages reloading'''" How is her TRMA messed up? And she spends about two seconds on stopping and reloading. I happen to think that the motion there is interesting and draws attention to the details of Steve A's great animation; admittedly, not relevant to the AE... and I think this point is moot because I will have to drop the clip before final cut if I can't get a better-quality version (sorry EdT).<br />
*The DeLorean shot is admittedly shaky (sorry again, EdT!), but it was the best drive-by clip I had in acceptable quality because someone wouldn't give me a decent version of the footage they took of the car turning onto a street as the camera ran alongside... I wonder who that was....<br />
*"'''"ONi" is admittedly awkward'''" It beings tears of joy to my eyes to hear you admit that. Re the text I used, I actually thought I was neatly compromising with you by making all three letters capital while preserving the overall heights of the letters in the official Bungie image of the word (and the "i" really looks about the same upper-case as it does lower-case, it's not a letter that changes much between cases, so I don't know why you care about it). I have to say, too, that I understood not a word of what you said in the rest of that paragraph; you asked for a sans serif font... that's what I used! You say "in this version"... you mean, in this trailer? Also, I used four different fonts, yes, but only because I was trying to makes things slightly less boring, and also to present each piece of text in a font that suited it. But if you want, I will use only one typeface for all of it.<br />
*My ending is inferior to your example ending in one respect, which is that in mine, the first words are way too late in appearing onscreen; that was more an accident than intentional, because I threw that new text in right before I saved the cut. I can fix that. Otherwise, I don't see any differences in timing, so if there's something else there you want me to see, you have to point it out.<br />
*'''"rock-bottom crappy", "the compression is killing me", "posterized shadows", "bleeding colors", "omnipresent interlacing"'''. Wow. What can I say, except that I really have no idea what you're talking about? Seriously, this scares me a bit. A couple clips are low-quality, yes... but the compression is excellent (for MPEG-4). If you don't like the darks (not sure I understand your usage of "posterized"), I will save the next one in "OG" Sorenson, it preserves darks much better than MPEG. "Bleeding colors"... you're freakin' colorblind (and so am I)! How could you know if colors are bleeding?! And finally, as to claims of "omnipresent" interlacing, damn you, I had to disprove this thoroughly, so I actually went and counted, and there are 6 clips with interlacing:<br />
#Disarming of green Striker in classic Oni<br />
#Spinning punch to TCTF guy in classic Oni<br />
#Ninja taking out guards in classic Oni (I can fix this one, I chose to blend frames when slowing the speed down, but I can turn that off)<br />
#Parkouring Mukade<br />
#Shapeshifting in glass hall<br />
#Sniper shot to Striker (I think it works favorably here)<br />
:These clips were all recorded by PC users, and it's not my fault your computers have crappy video capture/encoding abilities. Do you honestly think the handful of clips here are detracting from the trailer? Now, if you're being confused by the text that's interlaced, thinking that means the whole video is interlaced, well it's not; it's only the text rendering. I can't explain it, but I ''will'' look into it; it's a strange symptom but hopefully fixable. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:50, 23 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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::Nothing personal, but I really have to go now. Given enough time I still intend to provide mini-drafts covering the full length of the trailer, complete with raw footage. You can interpret that as patronizing if you like, be my guest. Please don't resent the lack of constructive criticism about the "dead comrade" scene or the missing footage for the DeLorean: I already said and released [[AE:Trailer#Basic_idea_for_the_footage|All]] I [[AE:Trailer#Alarm_logic|Could]] in that respect, and I will say and release [[AE:Authoring custom camera animations|more]], eventually. As for all the rest, from [[wikipedia:posterization|posterization]] to [http://geyser.oni2.net/oni1/music/09-Ambient_Suite.mp3 soundtrack] to [http://onimia.ru/doc/game_gallery_res.php?2 TRMA], I ''really'' can't afford to chat, and I'm ''really'' sorry about this. I knew it was a bad idea for me to speak up in the first place, but at least now you can be sure you'll get nothing out of me but constructive silence; communicating/arguing in "dribs and drabs" is not an option for me, and it will actually take me less time to deliver near-final trailer sections. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:59, 24 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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:::<big>To geyser primarily, and to anyone else following this discussion secondarily: Please read the following meditatively. Yes, this is a long rant, but it's everything I need to say. And it's the last time I'll rant on anything within this community. I promise that solemnly. After this, there's no need to rant because if this doesn't hit home or have any effect, there's no point in repeating it, and I just have to move on emotionally from this whole thing.</big><br />
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:::I certainly won't take offense at your not being able to reply to all the above points, because I understand the demands of RL; but I think we need to step back and think about this "creative" "process". "'''it was a bad idea for me to speak up in the first place'''". No, I don't think so, because I was refraining from doing more trailer work since I hadn't heard anything from you in so long and I figured you were going to drop The Hammer of Nitpicking™ on me sooner or later (I was right) and there was no point in doing more work that you might end up un-doing.<br />
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:::But what are we doing here, geyser? Does this make sense? Is it really an efficient use of our time to construct the trailer this way? I'm not trying to back out of helping; rather, I am trying to find a good <u>way</u> to help, and this doesn't seem to be helping; I don't feel like I'm helping you. Nothing I do seems able to satisfy you, so you end up having to say, "Not like that, like this," and post another partial video. It's like, instead of my designing a home and building it, I'm building a modular home where someone else has made the pieces, shipped them in, and I just slap them together. This doesn't make sense because if you can assemble the parts yourself using your available tools, what is the point of having me here??? <u>Seriously, I don't know the answer to that question.</u> What am I here for?<br />
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:::Looking at the situation realistically as an adult, don't you see, geyser, that when you can't do something yourself, but have to rely on others for help, you automatically cede some control over that project? That's how everything in this world works. When you give others tasks to do, even as their employer, there comes a time when you have to say, "You know what? We need to keep moving forward, so even if that employee's work is not up to my specs, I'm not them and I can't do their job because I have my own job. Their work is not going to wreck the company, and maybe others will think it's fine that way, so I have to let go of my personal investment in this and just approve it." I know I shouldn't have to tell you that, geyser, but I find myself wondering if you haven't learned that Fact Of Life yet; surely you must have, right? So, if you have... at what point are you going to shrug to yourself and say, "That's not perfect, and it's not how I would do it, but it's good enough"? There has to be a point where that happens or you will never be successful at managing people, either professionally or in the community. They will become fed up and quit. And I'm not suggesting here that you say the trailer draft is fine as-is, that's a wrap, we're done here. I'm referring to the individual parts of the whole; when will any of them be good enough for you?<br />
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:::I sometimes wonder why I have to be the one always saying this stuff; it reminds me of school, in every single grade, where we'd be in a group, and no one wanted to present our work, or be group leader. I didn't want to, either, but I felt obligated by a sense of duty to do so, and so, after an awkward silence, I would always mumble, "I guess I'll do it." And I ''never'' wanted to. And I ''still'' don't. But here I am again. The group was given an assignment: record footage for the trailer. Then, they were given unreasonably specific instructions as to how to do over what they did, but better this time. Eventually, what happened? They stopped helping. Sure, maybe they got busy IRL or with other Oni projects, but maybe they were demoralized by your endless direction. We won't know unless some of them speak up. I have absolutely zero desire to put anyone on the spot or to make them feel embarrassed or pulled into some kind of argument, but, seriously, I can't speak for them, I can only guess at what they were thinking when the awkward silence descended on the AE:Trailer page after a while. The silence said to me, "This is too demanding, I'm just gonna sit this one out now." Maybe I'm wrong, but as is the story of my life, here I am, putting myself out there with the biggest risk because no one else spoke their mind back when you asked (what I thought was) too much of them. Is that unfair of me to say, maybe a little angry? Perhaps. I guess that, as an adult, I thought things would change for me. But they never do.<br />
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:::I will force myself to close up here for now, but I want to answer a question that you may have on your mind, that goes something like, "Then why the crap did you volunteer to help me if you were going to make such an issue out of this?" The answer is, I volunteered to help you because I was ''already making my own trailer'' after reading Gumby's message on the forum conveying your desire for said trailer; I saw no specific direction so I followed my own. I had a format picked out, and music, and I had a short, succinct list of footage I wanted help recording, and I was ready to go to town and have fun. Then I found out you had laid out plans on the wiki already, and in the interests of cooperation I decided to scrap my personal vision for the trailer that excited me and go with yours instead. And I've really tried, geyser, really I have. I have tried to produce a trailer that you could approve of. In some ways, I can still make what I have work better for you, but in most ways I think we are looking at a chasm between us called "a difference in aesthetics", and we will never have a meeting of minds unless you acknowledge reality and say that something is "not perfect, but good enough". Until you can bring yourself to essentially "say uncle" to the facts of the universe, I can't keep working for you. It's just not going to be good for either one of us because we keep going around and around in circles, like Ouroboros consuming itself endlessly. I would have finished this trailer and gotten back to my other projects by now if we worked better together or if I did my own thing. As it is, I don't see any end to this project, and I *need* to see an end. Everyone needs to see an end to something when they have other things they need and want to do.<br />
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:::So, that's it, it's off my chest and in your court. I'm not quitting the project, and I'm not quitting the community. You can fire me from the project, you can act on that Fact Of Life and learn the words "good enough", or we can make our own separate trailers. That's not an ultimatum from me to you, it's a list of the only possible outcomes at this point. I apologize if this rant sounded breathlessly emotional, or if it sounded self-righteous, but there are key issues here that involve much more than just this little trailer and I always believe in clearing the air and addressing issues when it needs to be done. As I said, no more rants after this, ever. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 04:31, 24 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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::::I like your solemn promise. I don't like your analogy with real-life management. You're probably right when you say I suck as a manager and as an adult, even if we take into account conflicting RL priorities and community specifics; but that "sense of duty" ''you'' admitted to is not really the kind of creative motivation I can approve of in the case of this project: it leaves little room for ''actual'' "tender loving care". So. Obviously, there are no jobs and bosses involved here, but consider yourself fired if it makes you feel better: my apologies about the aesthetical chasm and about your wasted time. Now, two separate trailers are an option, but keep in mind that an official trailer can bury Oni just as it can bring it back to life; a half-baked trailer will decredibilize AE as a project, which is bad for the community. That's the main reason why I've been doing my very best and telling others to do so: because our self-esteem at this point in time, and the elaborately self-aware statement that is the trailer, will define whether there's anywhere for us to go from here at all. Advice. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:30, 24 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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:::::I'll add my thoughts, the reason I stopped providing content for the trailer was that it seemed nothing I did was "good enough". I realize that geyser wants the best for the trailer in terms of content and quality and I felt that my skills was not up to the level that geyser wanted. I really appreciate the efforts that Iritscen put into making the trailer and I'm sorry that I couldn't have been of more help. <br />
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:::::I'm not one to complain, but one statement bugs me. geyser said "For example, I'd avoid showing editor views of ripped levels: my current impression is that they scream "big-time EULA violation!" But under Modding Tools the request was "View of levels, characters and weapons in XSI/Cheetah/Blender (for characters and weapons, show a texture editor panel)" Now for that shot of the Lab in Cheetah, I had to manually link over 170 TXMPs to the materials, that took considerable time and now we can't use it.<br />
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:::::Anyways, that's my mini-rant :-)<br />
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:::::To geyser, I want to thank you for skills and knowledge in improving Oni for everyone to enjoy. Especially, you don't forget about the few Mac fans, and for that I'm grateful.<br />
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:::::[[User:EdT|EdT]] 06:43, 24 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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:::::I want to second Ed in thanking you for the work you do in the community, geyser, and for not overlooking Mac users, and I hope you are not dis-spirited by my rebellion up there ^ but at least we have come to terms. Touching on what Ed said, it could well be that I lack the skills you need; it was somewhat egotistical of me to suggest that our only difference could be aesthetics and not skill level. One small clarification: when I used the word "duty", I meant that I felt a sense of duty to speak up, even to dare to speak for others when I might be wrong about their feelings, because I felt it had fallen on my shoulders to do so (even if it hadn't and I'm just a pompous ass for thinking so). The original motivation for starting work on a trailer was less duty-related and more enthusiasm-related, but there was duty there too -- I won't expand on that, to avoid rant territory.<br />
:::::But I see that you feel a strong sense of duty when it comes to representing Oni too, and I certainly respect that, of course. It may well be that, regardless of whether or not I could produce a decent trailer, my time would be better spent making (or finishing) things that maybe one day will be ''worthy'' of being put in a trailer, if that trailer-making person likes them, by some small chance :-) --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 07:30, 24 September 2008 (CEST)<br />
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:::::lol guys, I am too lazy to thank you all every single day I happen to enter this wiki! From my personal point of view you three have a unique quality in common: you are unable to put aside your conscience, in everything you do, with the all people you happen to interact with. Now you are facing two kind of problems: first, your penchant for intelligent talk is slowly eating all your spare time. Second, creative partnerships usually turn into real friendships, and you (especially Geyser) are just afraid of trespassing that line - as well as of its consequences. [[User:Guido|Guido]] 21:35, 25 September 2008 (CET)</div>Guido