AE talk:Training

Gumby's idea for using Motoko in the training level is that if the player is getting, say, a 90% grade or above, a final, additional room will open up with Motoko inside, as an advanced test for Konoko. I think veteran players will love seeing a new room appear where there wasn't one, and it's cool to actually use the score to have an effect on the level. Any thoughts, geyser, on how to present this? Putting some text onscreen to explain what is happening is a given. Voice acting isn't feasible, is it? Any other thoughts you have are helpful too, e.g., what moveset would Motoko have? I know EdT already cooked up a pretty serious one for her that we could use, unless you think it's too much difficulty for the opening level.

P.S.: Imagine if we actually had scripted scoring for other levels... to provide optional elite challenges there too.... --iritscen 20:57, 16 November 2008 (CET)

My main thought was that having someone to fight against in the actual level would be nice. Maybe at >90 percent the fight gets a bit harder :) Gumby 21:18, 16 November 2008 (CET)

Heh, just thought of something else. If Karen "dies", some TCTF officers could come rushing through to shut down the robots :) --Gumby

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There's no point in "imagining" new features for the training unless you're committed to Actually Getting Them Done. Don't throw more and more ideas my way, or each other's way, or whatever you think you're doing ^_^ --geyser 22:48, 16 November 2008 (CET)

Adding rooms, for example: what the frack? don't you even mention it until OniSplit is able to reimport AKEVEnvWarehouse complete with pathfinding autogeneration. Is that clear? Dismissed. --geyser 22:48, 16 November 2008 (CET)

Scripted scoring is a well-forgotten old idea of "mine" that I consider very scope-creepy at the moment. It needs expert scripting throughout, that no one can provide. End of story. Start by adding savepoints, maggots ^_^ --geyser 22:48, 16 November 2008 (CET)

More generally, I'd welcome achievements rather than ideas at the moment. We need to understand the level at which everyone can actually contribute. Specifically, who of us can script, apart from Loser and gmsly and myself? Who do we have who can script an extended/new training course, or "seamless" additions to the Chapters? I'd prefer that scripter to have a fair degree of autonomy, but I won't mind questions, as long as I don't get the impression that I'm as good as alone anyway. --geyser 22:48, 16 November 2008 (CET)

"If Karen "dies", some TCTF officers could come rushing through to shut down the robots" Shutting down robots by kicking their ass or shooting them? How primitive... Shinatama can activate and deactivate them at will, she just failed to do so in time. There was no malfunction, and for the sake of the argument we can say Karen was knocked out (this is reasonably consistent with Shinatama's tirade, and the whole thing not more than an Easter egg, so...). --geyser 22:48, 16 November 2008 (CET)

Another problem with the "rushing in" is the improbable, sealed-off layout of the training rooms, the magical appearance of items in the shooting range, and of course Karen and the droids also appear out of nowhere. Cyberspace is present in Oni, so it helps to think of the whole thing as a virtual or semi-virtual environment. The more people are shown using it as an actual facility, the less abstract the whole thing is, and the more thought/work should be put into the overall presentation: are we looking at cyber-avatars, or cyber-training with physical feedback from actual droids in actual rooms, or real people who use concealed doors, or (least likely of all) teleporters? There are reasonable "physical" solutions, like concealed elevators being lowered from the ceiling, but then again the whole level is very un-serious, and I think it'd be scope-creepy to mod it in radical ways. It just doesn't deserve it, and it can work even if it's wacky. --geyser 22:48, 16 November 2008 (CET)

"My main thought was that having someone to fight against in the actual level would be nice. Maybe at >90 percent the fight gets a bit harder" Sorry, Gumby, but I don't get what that means: try not to "think aloud"... Does "actual level" mean the warehouse, or the training course? Is >90% the "rating" obtained in training, or the progress through the training course, or the progress through a given fight? Please explain. --geyser 22:48, 16 November 2008 (CET)

"unless you think it's too much difficulty for the opening level." Veterans, as you put it, won't mind fighting overpowered cameos. I already said what I thought of new rooms and complex management of fighting stats: realism and simplicity are our best friends - if you don't think in terms of time frames and actual output, the best project leader in the world won't help you. --geyser 22:58, 16 November 2008 (CET)

Here is a simple yet effective way to handle a "Demoniac" difficulty upgrade: unlock harder challenges throughout Oni if the "killed Griffin" flag is set; there can be 3 flavors of harder challenges, one for every difficulty level, so basically you have 6 difficulty levels, which is more than enough to accomodate the skill of every gamer. Of course, the lack of a stats system makes the thing easier to script, but someone will still have to sit down and script the supposed challenging encounters. And if I'm the only one who can do the job, none of this will ever happen. --geyser 22:48, 16 November 2008 (CET)

"Voice acting isn't feasible, is it?" Depends on what approach you take. Shinatame has a lot of quotes, from which you can piece a lot of new lines together - if you're creative. --geyser 22:48, 16 November 2008 (CET)

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Geez, it was all in fun. I don't regard the training level to be an actual part of the game, myself. And Karen dying is Easter Egg no more. She dies more for me than not. Adding rooms was not in my original plan, either. And I can script, too, or I wouldn't suggest these things. The only reason I haven't scripted new level logic is lack of good inspiration. And also, might I note something that I hadn't read before now:

"For example, both Motoko Kusanagi from GITS and Gally/Alita from GUNNM could appear as "sparring partners" late in the training course, probably not in the "default" course but hidden or unlocked in some way."

Goddamnit, if you are going to give me a shitstorm seven times larger than my idea (which you originally suggested, vaguely!) I won't bother anymore. You tell us to work on something in the AE:todo list.

Me: Oh look! AE:Training. Hey, I have an idea! Lets add Motoko in! ....hey look! Geyser already had this idea! Lets refine it a little bit!

And what do I get? Le-shitstorm

If you aren't going to tell us what to focus on, don't be surprised if you get a lot of ideas in places you don't want them. In fact, don't be surprised at any of the ideas. It takes a lot of bad ones to find the good ones that should be put in. And when YOU suggest something (Motoko in the training in this case) don't yell at us when we try to expand upon the idea. We are doing the best we can with what we have. Gumby 23:34, 16 November 2008 (CET)

I admit I'm taking it out on you a little bit (and maybe more than a little bit), but I'm understandably tired of how everybody is "systematically mucking about". Note that you didn't give me much to give you a shitstorm about up there, as I didn't even understand what your "main thought" was. I was reacting primarily to Iritscen's blurb, trying to respond in detail to every point: when I sensed scope creep, I said it, and when I could extract something constructive, I did so.

There is nothing wrong with unlocking one or several extra challenges based on the "rating" of the training course; either at the end of the course, when the rating is complete, or at intermediate stages, based on the rating-so-far. So I did not reject the rating-based "idea" for the training course (because the rating is already implemented). I did reject the generalization proposed by Iritscen, because on the scale of the whole game the answer to Who The Frack Will Script It And When is obvious: no one any time soon.

I made an additional remark in response to Iritscen's points about "veterans" and excessive difficulty: Griffin's death (or another similar variable) can act as a global switch, changing Easy/Normal/Hard to Challenging/Insane/Impossible: the training course can be affected dramatically by that secret variable, regardless of the rating-based non-linearity. That not shit-stormy in my book, that's constructive. Feel free to develop on that idea whenever "good inspiration" hits you.

If you think the training level is not actually worth the attention, then I can agree with you in part: pimping up the training course is not the best way to improve Oni, especially not in the eyes of the "general public". It is, however, a convenient dump for otherwise embarrassing "cameos", and an opportunity for you to deliver in terms of scripting. There are clear guidelines, reasonable creative freedom, guaranteed support from myself. Like for *cough* extra savepoints.

As for Karen losing to the robots more often than not, we can fix it, but we don't have to, as long as we pretend she isn't really dead. I still don't think shutting down the robots "manually" makes sense, because there was no malfunction. You can totally add TCTF troops in this spot or elsewhere (ahead of Konoko's progression, for example, as I suggested earlier), but, as I said up there, if you add too many people, you may have to develop the "backstory" of the training a bit: either a "realistic" tie-in (elevators, cyberspace) or deliberately random wackiness, but there will have to be some tender loving care, or the modified course may look awkward, neither serious or un-serious enough. I can't tell you what to watch out for more specifically: you have to actually start working on it and make some choices for yourself and then we'll see.

In any case, I can't see why you should be put off by my first post up there. It is edgy, but I have my reasons and you know them. You want me to tell you what to do? OK, here you go: Gumby, you must implement cutscene skipping and extra savepoints. If you need more specific directions for either task, just ask. And you're relieved of having ideas until you're done with these two items. You can refuse the task and work on multiplayer instead, but then I may not be of much help.

geyser 02:07, 17 November 2008 (CET)

Misunderstanding suck, huh? Anyways, savepoints+cutscenes: Roger Roger.

Also, about "cyberspace". Makes sense, as Karen+bots technically enter by walking through the walls :) Maybe Shinny can make an appearence then...or something. Or not. Doesn't matter right now though. Gumby 04:37, 17 November 2008 (CET)