AE talk:Combat system: Difference between revisions

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(crazy question)
(for iritscen)
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:This is not really a question, but I think this statement about the new package is a bit confusing...
CLEARED 10/27/2008
*''Directional kicks, running kicks, jumping kicks now cause mild stagger
*''Directional punches and running punches now cause knockdown for all classes
:Why does it make sense that a running kick is less powerful (stagger) than a running punch (knockdown)?
:Is the first statement about blocked kicks and the second about unblocked punches, or something else?
:Generally, whenever you say "now", it's a good idea to remind people of what things were like "before".
:I fail to see a difference with Konoko's running kicks, for example. What ''exactly'' changed about them?
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 15:39, 9 September 2008 (CEST)
 
 
Thank you for noticing this page.
I should learn to write. By those statements is meant:
:''Directional kicks, running kicks, jumping kicks now cause mild stagger'' -
::These kicks are now blockable only in "standing" stance. If you crouch and they miss completely, good for you. If they connect, you get hit.
::These kicks now cause mild stagger if you guard them (usually 20-30 frames, originally they caused simple 8 frames block)
::These kicks still knockdown you if you are hit by them or (Comguy, Fury) cause heavy stagger (40 - 45 frames)
 
::Why? Just to uplift them. Now you can argue with me (and win, of course) but I have friend who is not playing Oni but he plays games from time to time. I let him play vanilla Oni. Punch spamming, throw spamming. Forgot about kicks the moment he tried them a few times (exception were front running kick and front standing kick). Why? Slower, not giving him enough time if opponent blocks. And they had "no advantages"  as he said when I asked him why he is not using them.
 
::Then, I let him play AE. It was clearly visible that his usual spamming now works less then before. It does not mean he was killed by nearest come-n'go enemy. It means he had problems with him as my friend does not use evasion moves. It goes like this: "Evading? Time wasting. Let's throw'em! WHAT? I got kicked to the ground? OK, EAT THIS!!!" *Forward + left mouse spam*. Enemy killed in the end. My friend had 1/4 of his HP away. 20 other enemies are waiting for him later in level ^_^. Then, I played. A few rolls, some average-placed kicks, finished with 2x punch combo in the end. Enemy hit me once (threw me).
 
::That was my goal. More technical gameplay (like "big fighting games", Tekken/DOA/Virtua fighter), less spamming. I 80% suceeded. At least I think so.
 
::'''Tirade = 1''' (put '''#''' in front and ignore if not interested)
:::Now you can say "OK, so why was Konoko's front kick penalized? Why it is now blocked so swiftly (4 frames block animation)? It is not real!" Answer is: it is lightning fast kick, easy to spam. I had to weaken it in order to prevent "mindless spamming". That is deal of game: if you want to make it entertaining, you have to do some thing differently from real world.
 
:::Now you again: "Then, if we are doing things "differently from real world", why you want to make fights "more realistic?" It is contradicting! Plus, you are talking about "weakening overpowered moves" but Mutant Muro is now tremdeously powerful, capable of hitting you multiple times with one animation!" Well, here my little tirade ends. Simply because I want tom make Oni fun to play. Spamming is no fun. And no, proclamation "so don't spam" is NOT solution. I want to be able to use everything as well as I want AI2 to use everything. Then it is fun.
 
:::If Mutant Muro is exceptional boss, 2x bigger than you and with super shield, then he can have more powerful attacks. I tried and defeated him, no big job. Only difference is that now you cannot rush and spam and retreat and rush and spam.... so easily. Well, you have to do it this way aganist such a boss. But against vanilla Mutant Muro it is easy the moment you are a bit skilled + you saved shield to prevent HP loss if he does PAR3 powered attack and you get caught.
 
:::Aganist AE Mutant Muro it is harder. you WILL do it same way, but first time he catches you with his attack you realize this is serious. And once again-I defeated him, no big job. You only have to be more careful.
::'''Tirade = 0'''
 
:''Directional punches and running punches now cause knockdown for all classes''
::Directional punches can be blocked in any stance
::If they are not guarded, directional punches now cause knockdown (or medium stagger in some cases)
::If guarded, these punches now do 10 frames block instead of 8 frames. Better chance for you to run away if you were not sucessful with directional punch and you face threat of being back thrown. But still not enough time to spam these, I think.
 
::REASON: Original directional punches are usually useless. Sorry if it sounds too definite, but if we count out punch forward (part of everyday attack arsenal), then left/right/back punches were seriously underpowered. For example, Ninja's directional punches caused only hurt anim if they hit enemy (no stagger/knockdown). Practical joke. So enemy eats 10 points damage from side punch, then he swiftly finishes his back positioning and backthrows you for minimal 30 damage (I count out SWAT's broken non-damaging back throw). Or he waits for you to attack, block it and THEN he does it. I apologize, but that is useless.
:Similar with running punches of some classes (Konoko for example). You run into opponent, strike him. He plays simple hit animation from your full body powered impact, then he PWNS you hard. If you feel weird about this sentence, read Tirade first, then react, please.
::Overall, it is a bit better now. Of course you can spam punches. But kicks have now their advantages as well. And still, 10 frames from blocked punch is not much (kick do usually 20+ staggers now) but still you have better chance to escape back throw. Especially aganist more skilled classes (and aganist AE opponents ^_^'). Of course wait now-backthrow later still works. But even +2 frames into block gives you sometimes chance to get away. And AI2 can use it, too.
 
Finally:  "I fail to see a difference with Konoko's running kicks, for example. What exactly changed about them."
:[http://loser.oni2.net/Videos/Vanilla_X_AE.wmv VIDEO]. First is vanilla ONI, second is AE combat system.
:vanilla: enemy can counterattack your directional kick almost immediately.
:AE: Enemy staggers a bit from impact. Nothing big, but still you have chance to get away or try to continue combo. But as you can see, enemy still has upper hand as he finishes his stagger (and can attack) way before I land from my side kick. Which is good. (maybe not realistic but prevents spamming)
 
I hope I answered all of your questions. Feel free to react. --[[User:Loser|Loser]] 21:36, 9 September 2008 (CEST)
 
I still haven't tried your system out, but from the sound of it, I like your changes, Loser. By the way, have you changed Barabus' moves at all? I experienced some amazing and wicked behavior from him in my last fight with him that made him much harder. Maybe it was just a fluke (I can post video if you want).  --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:53, 10 September 2008 (CEST)
----
:Loser, I have no intention to argue, so you don't have to, either. Gumby notified me about your release, so I came around and checked it out. As I said, I was confused by seemingly contradictory statements in your overview and I wanted you to develop. Maybe a detailed changelog with some explanations (whenever the effect of the change isn't obvious) would have been better than a "virtual argument" between you and me. But even if I still don't have a clear idea of your changes, I am getting the impression that your current modifications are quite subtle (like that mild stagger, which is not so easy to see even when you point the finger at it). And subtle is probably good. I encourage you to go on with throws and other stuff. And since you're taking a modular approach, I'd also give the domino effect a second chance (blownups causing knockdowns is totally OK, and as for knockdowns - they could cause a mild stagger during the first few frames ''or'' a knockdown if there is no early contact). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 20:48, 10 September 2008 (CEST)
:While I have your attention, Loser, you should ''definitely'' provide the ingredients of [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwF0FynUhgQ THIS] or offer to re-record it yourself. Other AI upgrades (like reaction to dead comrades or to contact with a sneaking player) can be simulated with scripts for the needs of the trailer, so that's not an emergency, but it would be nice if they, too, were available in some form... eventually. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 20:48, 10 September 2008 (CEST)
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Loser, I have a quick question on something pretty basic, but I don't remember seeing it addressed before. Does pressing the 'back' button have any effect when blocking? Does it do anything differently than blocking by pressing nothing? *Can* it be made to do anything different from blocking while doing nothing? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 00:19, 20 September 2008 (CEST)
Loser, I have a quick question on something pretty basic, but I don't remember seeing it addressed before. Does pressing the 'back' button have any effect when blocking? Does it do anything differently than blocking by pressing nothing? *Can* it be made to do anything different from blocking while doing nothing? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 00:19, 20 September 2008 (CEST)
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::::"'''No parry/reversal'''" Hey! Stop reading my mind! It's creepy :-) But that's too bad, that we can't play other animations. Oh well.
::::"'''No parry/reversal'''" Hey! Stop reading my mind! It's creepy :-) But that's too bad, that we can't play other animations. Oh well.
::::Re "backpedaling"; sorry, I forgot that's not a common word and that you might not know what it means; backpedaling simply means "running backwards at a constant rate" (the movement resembles pedaling backwards on a bicycle; Konoko's backwards run is a beautiful example of backpedaling). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:57, 20 September 2008 (CEST)
::::Re "backpedaling"; sorry, I forgot that's not a common word and that you might not know what it means; backpedaling simply means "running backwards at a constant rate" (the movement resembles pedaling backwards on a bicycle; Konoko's backwards run is a beautiful example of backpedaling). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:57, 20 September 2008 (CEST)
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::::I was reading about offset 0x3C in the TRAM, where the attack statuses are set, such as BlockHigh/Low. It's not possible to take advantage of a new bit value in there, is it, to allow for a new kind of blocking status? It looked like the fourth bit is unused, if I read that right. I guess the point is that the engine would have to be hacked to make an 'if' statement based on that bit, right? I don't know how hard that would be; probably a question for Neo. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:01, 26 September 2008 (CEST)
::::I was reading about offset 0x3C in the TRAM, where the attack statuses are set, such as BlockHigh/Low. It's not possible to take advantage of a new bit value in there, is it, to allow for a new kind of blocking status? It looked like the fourth bit is unused, if I read that right. I guess the point is that the engine would have to be hacked to make an 'if' statement based on that bit, right? I don't know how hard that would be; probably a question for Neo. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:01, 26 September 2008 (CEST)
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Separate question that came up on another wiki page: have you fixed the MURCOMthrow_fw bug (where the legbreaker doesn't always play the right animation?) --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 14:13, 20 September 2008 (CEST)
Yes, that is for Neo. Still want to make more sophisticated melee, eh? Me too, trust me (read my personal page ^_^). But I would save these ideas. We cannot do very much with engine so far. Altough Neo can, imagine that you have to "learn" AI2 this new ability as well. That means far more than just a few lines of code. --[[User:Loser|Loser]] 12:26, 27 September 2008 (CEST)
:In this version of throws, this bug is gone. BTW, do you know that this bug (wrong animation played) appeared also in vanilla Oni? It was different throw and it was not that frequent. Can you gess it?
::Are you referring to Konoko's Backbreaker, which magically attracts more enemies if they come in from behind her while she's doing it? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:57, 20 September 2008 (CEST)

Revision as of 10:26, 27 September 2008

CLEARED 10/27/2008

Loser, I have a quick question on something pretty basic, but I don't remember seeing it addressed before. Does pressing the 'back' button have any effect when blocking? Does it do anything differently than blocking by pressing nothing? *Can* it be made to do anything different from blocking while doing nothing? --Iritscen 00:19, 20 September 2008 (CEST)


Yes, It makes you more likely to be hit ^_^

serious stuff: when you press "back", character performs two animations: step back A, then step back B. Step back A is vulnerable for all characters, step back B again for all except Konoko, she has it "block high". So better is to do nothing.
Well, you inspired me -> I will try to set both back steps as "block high". Maybe it will be good. Thank you very much ^_^.

--Loser 06:28, 20 September 2008 (CEST)

Yeah, if you compare it to fighting games (within my very limited experience), backing up automatically becomes a block when under sttack. I had seen Konoko go into blocking status while backing up but I wasn't sure it was consistent. At the very least, it should be consistent and not matter which foot she's on.
I was also asking this because I was wondering if an animation can be set up to be used only while a character is back-pedaling and being attacked. Is that possible within the current framework of how TRAMs work? --Iritscen 14:08, 20 September 2008 (CEST)
There is NO possibility to make character play different block animation just because character is doing back steps. No parry/reversal ^_^. Once bit "BlockHigh" or "BlockLow" is set, it simply blocks according to already existing and hardcoded mechanics.
Also, I won't give block status to backpedaling, only I will try to give it to back steps. Blocking while backpedaling = cheap. But backsteps...maybe it will spice up melee. We will see.
"No parry/reversal" Hey! Stop reading my mind! It's creepy :-) But that's too bad, that we can't play other animations. Oh well.
Re "backpedaling"; sorry, I forgot that's not a common word and that you might not know what it means; backpedaling simply means "running backwards at a constant rate" (the movement resembles pedaling backwards on a bicycle; Konoko's backwards run is a beautiful example of backpedaling). --Iritscen 17:57, 20 September 2008 (CEST)


I was reading about offset 0x3C in the TRAM, where the attack statuses are set, such as BlockHigh/Low. It's not possible to take advantage of a new bit value in there, is it, to allow for a new kind of blocking status? It looked like the fourth bit is unused, if I read that right. I guess the point is that the engine would have to be hacked to make an 'if' statement based on that bit, right? I don't know how hard that would be; probably a question for Neo. --Iritscen 20:01, 26 September 2008 (CEST)

Yes, that is for Neo. Still want to make more sophisticated melee, eh? Me too, trust me (read my personal page ^_^). But I would save these ideas. We cannot do very much with engine so far. Altough Neo can, imagine that you have to "learn" AI2 this new ability as well. That means far more than just a few lines of code. --Loser 12:26, 27 September 2008 (CEST)

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