Restless Souls/Technology: Difference between revisions

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@geyser: I hope this is an improvement. If it still not suits you feel free to change the page yourself. I still want to conciliate our Daodan ideas. Good night.
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m (@geyser: I hope this is an improvement. If it still not suits you feel free to change the page yourself. I still want to conciliate our Daodan ideas. Good night.)
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===Origin===
===Origin===
====Naming====
====Naming====
The Kanji of Daodan are not known. In the English version of the game the Kanji are never shown and in the Japanese version Katakana is used.
Interestingly Kerr speaks of the Daodan Chrysalis as if it is one unit.  
Unlike Kanji with their rich history and meaning to each symbole Katakana symbols give you only the pronunciation and hence "true meaning" and actual Kanji of "Daodan" remains open to interpretation.


In the community there are two different interpretations:
:13_65_13 Kerr: "The Daodan Chrysalis. Your father believed that the only way to save the human race from the poisonous atmosphere was to change them so they could adapt to the new world."
* one with rather ethical and political focus (geyser)
* one with rather philosophical and biological focus (Paradox-01)


The word Daodan is always translated to Katakana symbols ダオダン which gives you a separation of da-o-da-n (in English more or less pronounced Day-o-den according to Iritscen). ダオダン [[Quotes/Speech#CHAPTER_01_._TRIAL_RUN|subtitles]] can be found at 01_01_08, 02_09_02, 08_29_01, 13_65_13, 14_51_09
The community sometimes thinks of it as two different things. And while Daodan remained ''untranslated'' and ambiguous, the Chrysalis appeared to be ''clear enough''. As if there were two subsystems of different origin. The one being from an Chinese/Japanese speaking person (Hasegawa) and the other one being from an English-speaking person (Kerr). But that's most probably overinterpretation.


The word Daodan is always translated to Katakana symbols ダオダン. [[Quotes/Speech#CHAPTER_01_._TRIAL_RUN|subtitles]] can be found at 01_01_08, 02_09_02, 08_29_01, 13_65_13, 14_51_09


'''Interpretation with political and ethical focus'''
The Kanji of Daodan were not known: In the English version of the game the Kanji are never shown and in the Japanese version Katakana is used. Hence the "true meaning" Daodan remained open to interpretation - until Hardy LeBel re-appeared in the community after many years to answer some questions.


geyser: '''Dǎo dàn''' guǐ '''捣蛋'''鬼 is Chinese for "troublemaker", and dǎo dàn 捣蛋 means "to stir up trouble". Hasegawa may have coined the name "Daodan" in memory of his and Jamie's past as "troublemakers" (activists). The 捣蛋 part actually came [http://oni.bungie.org/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=52760#p52760 from Hardy].
From all existing interpretations RS incorporates basically two:
* The one with rather ethical and political focus by Hardy and geyser.
* The one with rather philosophical and biological focus by Paradox-01.


geyser/Hardy explicitly said "Chinese" because there are no Japanese examples of this word on the net but both language use Kanji. On the other hand Japanese not always give Kanji the same meaning as Chinese do, let alone compound nouns? So, the interpretation and use of 捣蛋鬼 is a stress because unproven. Let's check this. It turns out there is a Chinese wikipedia page for [[wp:zh:%E6%8D%A3%E8%9B%8B%E9%AC%BC|捣蛋鬼]]. It is actually not about "troublemaker" but a mythological being, a "trickster". When you follow the link to the Japanese version there is a Katakana writing for trickster トリックスター meaning there is no real Japanese equivalent. A trickster can be described as troublemaker but that does not describe the character in its wholeness and Konoko definitively doesn't look like she has "her situation" or the persons around her under control. The Daodan gives Konoko powers that potentially grant her control but by geyser's earlier words the Daodan also symbolize "[[Daodan#Efficiency_and_loss_of_control|lose of control]]". So the whole 捣蛋鬼 interpretation begins to contradict itself.
'''Interpretation - or the "original intention" - with political and ethical focus'''


For what it is worth, besides the already forced-looking interpretation obviously geyser also wanted a connection between Oni (鬼, demon/monster/ghost/(bad) person, and game title) and Daodan.
[http://oni.bungie.org/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=52760#p52760 Hardy]: "The origin [of Daodan] is a Chinese word [捣蛋]. [https://www.linguee.com/chinese-english/translation/%E6%90%97%E8%9B%8B.html It means to cause or '''stir up trouble'''.]"
 
From there it was a little step to "troublemaker" [捣蛋鬼]. However, under Hardy's watch Daodan and Oni somewhat broke apart into the Daodan Chrysalis and into the "demon" and "monster" theme.


Inside the story you can see how Hardy LeBel tried to translate Oni (Daodan hosts) with (figuratively) monster.
:07_26_06 Scientist: [...] You should have seen that '''monster [Barabas]''' that grabbed Shinatama!
:07_26_06 Scientist: [...] You should have seen that '''monster [Barabas]''' that grabbed Shinatama!
:13_65_34 Konoko: '''Muro and his men. They're monsters'''... What am I?
:13_65_34 Konoko: '''Muro and his men. They're monsters'''... What am I?
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:14_54_21 Konoko: Ashamed of myself? '''Griffin made me a monster''' when I was 07 years old [...]
:14_54_21 Konoko: Ashamed of myself? '''Griffin made me a monster''' when I was 07 years old [...]


After all Oni is a story about Konoko and the Daodan - of a troublemaker (according to geyser) and an internal (and external) transformation - in equal shares. (In the community Konoko's quest is mostly seen as a search for her own identity. One might say that those two points don't rule out each other.)
The idea of a more stand-alone Oni kind of degenerated as the "monster" translation was of rather marginal importance and also the "Iron Demon" was cut from the final game version.<!-- Also, inconsistency? The word "monster" was also used for Griffin as immoral character.


Inconsistency: "monster" was also used for Griffin as immoral character.
:14_53_01 Konoko: [...] YOU lied to me, betrayed me. '''You [Griffin] are a monster.'''-->
:14_53_01 Konoko: [...] YOU lied to me, betrayed me. '''You [Griffin] are a monster.'''


In best case the Daodan itself can be seen as a trickster but not Konoko - at least not in Oni 1. Then again Konoko can be seen as an instrument/vehicle/host to the Daodan, a system disturbing technology. (A trickster inside a troublemaker. ''When you deal with Konoko the trouble is double.'')
geyser repaired Hardy's initial idea by gluing 捣蛋 and 鬼 back together. Both, Daodan hosts (system disturbing mutants) and the Hasegawas as activists can be considered as troublemakers (捣蛋鬼).


The ethical dimension is embedded in Hasegawa's initial motivation to find a cure for what killed Jamie. To find that cure Hasegawa needed to outwit/break WCG regulations and laws. The higher cause (Daodan) justified his civil disobedience. It just happened that Mukade corrupted Hasegawa for Project Sturmanderung.
Added value: The Chinese wikipedia translates [[wp:zh:%E6%8D%A3%E8%9B%8B%E9%AC%BC|捣蛋鬼]] not totally as "troublemaker" but as a mythological being, a "trickster". This is not the same, but close enough and gives rise to even further interpretation paths:
* Shinatama can be described as a trickster doll. This means Shina'''tama''' has not only inherited Mai's innocent '''soul''' but also her trickster attributes, making the SLD a troublemaker as well.
* As for Mai herself: She is not only a troublemaker but also a host for a system disturbing technology. A trickster inside a troublemaker. ''When you deal with Konoko the trouble is double.'' Or do you? After all Oni is a story about both: Konoko and the Daodan - of internal (body) and external (state) transformation - in equal shares. In the community Konoko's quest is mostly seen as a search for her own identity. So, after being a disruptive force Mai could decide to be a positive force by re-interpretating (or re-discovering) Hasegawa's old Daodan concept. She would leave 捣蛋 behind and adapt the idea of 道段. (That is the conciliation of the two interpretations.)


The ethical dimension is embedded in Hasegawa's '''initial motivation to find a cure''' for what killed Jamie. To find that cure Hasegawa needed to outwit/break WCG regulations and laws. The higher cause (Daodan) justified his civil disobedience. It might be that Mukade simply corrupted Hasegawa for Project Sturmanderung.


'''Interpretation with philosophical and biological focus'''
'''Interpretation with philosophical and biological focus'''
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