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User talk:Iritscen/Archive1: Difference between revisions
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Here's an interesting article: Starbucks offers 2 hours free wifi each day. | Here's an interesting article: Starbucks offers 2 hours free wifi each day. https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2008-06-02-starbucks-wifi_N.htm | ||
Also, this site may help: | Also, this site may help: https://www.wififreespot.com/ | ||
So now you have no excuse for not hanging out at the OCF and the wiki, during your move :-) | So now you have no excuse for not hanging out at the OCF and the wiki, during your move :-) | ||
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'''Seriously, if you have time, can you write an AE wiki tutorial about how you modified Griffin's head --[[User:EdT|EdT]] 06:41, 5 June 2008 (CEST)''' | '''Seriously, if you have time, can you write an AE wiki tutorial about how you modified Griffin's head --[[User:EdT|EdT]] 06:41, 5 June 2008 (CEST)''' | ||
:Quite. "How to [[ | :Quite. "How to [[wp:List of military slang terms#FUBAR|FU]] Griffin's head [[wp:List of military slang terms#FUBAR|BAR]]: a Blender tutorial by Iritscen". Definitely looking forward to it. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:35, 5 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::...Are you saying you don't agree with a modeling decision I made with Griffin, or that I FUBARed the actual model file? Choose your words carefully, [[friend]]. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 22:57, 5 June 2008 (CEST) | ::...Are you saying you don't agree with a modeling decision I made with Griffin, or that I FUBARed the actual model file? Choose your words carefully, [[friend]]. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 22:57, 5 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
I complied this version of AETools on my MacBook, hopefully, it works better for you. | I complied this version of AETools on my MacBook, hopefully, it works better for you. | ||
http://drop.io/EdT_OniFiles/ | <nowiki>http://drop.io/EdT_OniFiles/</nowiki> (dead link) | ||
Also be sure to get the latest version of OniSplit | Also be sure to get the latest version of OniSplit | ||
[[User:EdT|EdT]] 02:12, 11 June 2008 (CEST) | [[User:EdT|EdT]] 02:12, 11 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
I have written a first draft of a tutorial that is aimed at total newbies to 3D work and to Blender. It's currently a subpage at | I have written a first draft of a tutorial that is aimed at total newbies to 3D work and to Blender. It's currently a subpage at User:Iritscen/BlenderTutorial [This was deleted after languishing unfinished for years. --Iritscen]. It can be left there until done or I can finish it after someone moves it somewhere. I'm basically leaving that to geyser or someone else with the time to think about where it should go (but I know you have your strong views on how pages should be organized, geyser, so I imagine you should be the one to find a place for it). Please read the comments hidden with the <nowiki><!----></nowiki> tags, too. | ||
--[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:37, 11 June 2008 (CEST) | --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:37, 11 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
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'''How much was accomplished?''' | '''How much was accomplished?''' | ||
:Some memory findings (pointers, player/enemy values, ...). (All?) results are stored [http://oniplayer.oni2.net/contents/whatsdone/found_stuff.php here] (Used program: [ | :Some memory findings (pointers, player/enemy values, ...). (All?) results are stored [http://oniplayer.oni2.net/contents/whatsdone/found_stuff.php here] (Used program: [[wp:Tsearch|TSearch]]). | ||
'''What were the obstacles?''' | '''What were the obstacles?''' | ||
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:::::Actually, everything but Griffin's head is untouched ''and 100% correct'', so you can work with Iritscen's file, without pasting the head elsewhere. [[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::::Actually, everything but Griffin's head is untouched ''and 100% correct'', so you can work with Iritscen's file, without pasting the head elsewhere. [[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::::geyser... you're looking at Ed's fixed version, aren't you? I refused to link to mine because it was so messed up. If the copy you're looking at has correct part names, then ''it's not the copy I was working with''. It would be a waste of time to examine that model and fix every problem when Neo has already fixed the export bugs and newly-made exports are fine. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ::::::geyser... you're looking at Ed's fixed version, aren't you? I refused to link to mine because it was so messed up. If the copy you're looking at has correct part names, then ''it's not the copy I was working with''. It would be a waste of time to examine that model and fix every problem when Neo has already fixed the export bugs and newly-made exports are fine. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::::::No, I'm looking at | :::::::No, I'm looking at this one (<nowiki>https://www.sendspace.com/file/rl6zre</nowiki>, dead link). As far as I can tell it's the exact same "flawed" version as you gave to Ed, and apart from the head name/hierarchy/placement (and the head mesh per se) there's nothing wrong with that model. Oh, and I still don't like how you blame OniSplit (version number?) for abstract bugs. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::::::Whoops, I forgot Ed linked to my uploaded flawed model. See below for my answer on the "abstract bug" part. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:00, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ::::::::Whoops, I forgot Ed linked to my uploaded flawed model. See below for my answer on the "abstract bug" part. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:00, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:Make the changes. | :Make the changes. | ||
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:::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::::::I have yet to try to import my exported .dae back into Blender and export it again, so I can't say yet if it will work for me. But I will follow geyser's advice about exporting from now on. The point about selecting all body parts and only exporting the selection, in particular, may be key to avoiding future problems. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ::::::::I have yet to try to import my exported .dae back into Blender and export it again, so I can't say yet if it will work for me. But I will follow geyser's advice about exporting from now on. The point about selecting all body parts and only exporting the selection, in particular, may be key to avoiding future problems. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::Well, DAEs exported with scene metadata are annoying more than anything else. It will justs end up as nested scenes when and if you import and reexport the DAE again, but it doesn't screw up the model in any way. For one thing, | :::::::::Well, DAEs exported with scene metadata are annoying more than anything else. It will justs end up as nested scenes when and if you import and reexport the DAE again, but it doesn't screw up the model in any way. For one thing, this (<nowiki>https://www.sendspace.com/file/rl6zre</nowiki>, dead link) includes scene data and I can work with it just fine. | ||
:::::::::Please note your misunderstanding of Ed's DAE->DAE problem as an example of a situation where early disambiguation wouldn't have hurt. Just because you and Ed have been talking about Blender and HD Griffin in private doesn't make you able to read each other's minds. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::::::::Please note your misunderstanding of Ed's DAE->DAE problem as an example of a situation where early disambiguation wouldn't have hurt. Just because you and Ed have been talking about Blender and HD Griffin in private doesn't make you able to read each other's minds. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::I know what you're talking about when you say the scene metadata is annoying, I tried to read the file once with the naked eye, and got pretty ticked off trying to make heads or tails out of all the nesting. | ::::::::::I know what you're talking about when you say the scene metadata is annoying, I tried to read the file once with the naked eye, and got pretty ticked off trying to make heads or tails out of all the nesting. | ||
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:::''That's where the catch is, Ed: are you sure you understand how it is possible that 2 heads have "different rotations" even though they "look the same"? And in what sense is the rotation of the body parts not 0,0,0 for a standing pose? Think "local reference". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::''That's where the catch is, Ed: are you sure you understand how it is possible that 2 heads have "different rotations" even though they "look the same"? And in what sense is the rotation of the body parts not 0,0,0 for a standing pose? Think "local reference". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::''Blender designers do a great job at confusing people, in the way only global orientations can be seen and edited, but it's the ''local reference'' of each body part that matters, and the ''local'' orientations of most body parts (e.g., the head) are 0,0,0. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::''Blender designers do a great job at confusing people, in the way only global orientations can be seen and edited, but it's the ''local reference'' of each body part that matters, and the ''local'' orientations of most body parts (e.g., the head) are 0,0,0. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::Here's the link to Iritscen's Griffin: | ::Here's the link to Iritscen's Griffin: <nowiki>https://www.sendspace.com/file/rl6zre</nowiki> (dead link) Also, you can find my version of Griffin here: <nowiki>http://drop.io/EdT_OniFIles</nowiki> (dead link) | ||
::[[User:EdT|EdT]] 20:51, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ::[[User:EdT|EdT]] 20:51, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::Thanks, Ed. Your TRBS is OK, I guess (as for the head mesh, that's a completely different story). The problematic .dae has been an opportunity to check out just what tool Iritscen is "forced" to work with. I'm definitely appalled at how much Blender sucks, from the confusing/confused design/philosophy to the online manual. In particular when it comes to coordinate systems and transformations, it's ''unspeakably'' clumsy. Of course, there are some decent workarounds (see 5-step instructions for fixing Griffin's head above), but that doesn't cover every real-world situation, and every such "exception" will be a little big nightmare. Maybe for HD modding or bastardizing the workflow won't be ''too'' lousy, but it will never ''soar'', that much is certain. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::Thanks, Ed. Your TRBS is OK, I guess (as for the head mesh, that's a completely different story). The problematic .dae has been an opportunity to check out just what tool Iritscen is "forced" to work with. I'm definitely appalled at how much Blender sucks, from the confusing/confused design/philosophy to the online manual. In particular when it comes to coordinate systems and transformations, it's ''unspeakably'' clumsy. Of course, there are some decent workarounds (see 5-step instructions for fixing Griffin's head above), but that doesn't cover every real-world situation, and every such "exception" will be a little big nightmare. Maybe for HD modding or bastardizing the workflow won't be ''too'' lousy, but it will never ''soar'', that much is certain. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
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:::::'''I need to fix the model for further work going forward''' "Yes you do... perhaps more than you know..." (C)Kerr | :::::'''I need to fix the model for further work going forward''' "Yes you do... perhaps more than you know..." (C)Kerr | ||
::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::::::If you are insinuating something, please spell it out | :::::::If you are insinuating something, please spell it out at '''Image_talk:Poly_Mods-Griffin_Master_Comp.jpg'''. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:00, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::P.S. to geyser: I did offer these files to you by saying you could ask Ed for them... so, you can't accuse me of withholding them from you since I only just made them available to anyone at all, and you were included in that offer. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ::P.S. to geyser: I did offer these files to you by saying you could ask Ed for them... so, you can't accuse me of withholding them from you since I only just made them available to anyone at all, and you were included in that offer. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::I wasn't accusing anyone of anything right there, but you have to admit that "oh, just go and ask Ed if you really wanna have a look at it, but I really wouldn't bother if I were you" is not the same as "here it is". Also, it's not just about "offering" stuff to ''me''; this is typically the case where I'd address ''Neo'' directly, at the first sign of trouble... "if I were you". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::I wasn't accusing anyone of anything right there, but you have to admit that "oh, just go and ask Ed if you really wanna have a look at it, but I really wouldn't bother if I were you" is not the same as "here it is". Also, it's not just about "offering" stuff to ''me''; this is typically the case where I'd address ''Neo'' directly, at the first sign of trouble... "if I were you". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
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AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'name' | AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'name' | ||
:For the disconnected triangles, I found the issue. Converting from .dae to .fbx no disconnected triangles, going from .fbx to .dae, disconnected triangles. Here are all the files: http://drop.io/EdT_OniFiles griffin_dae_fbx.zip The .dae/.fbx files with ORG in the name are the original .dae and converted .fbx. The ones with 2 is the .dae converted from the .fbx and back to .fbx. | :For the disconnected triangles, I found the issue. Converting from .dae to .fbx no disconnected triangles, going from .fbx to .dae, disconnected triangles. Here are all the files: <nowiki>http://drop.io/EdT_OniFiles griffin_dae_fbx.zip</nowiki> (dead link) The .dae/.fbx files with ORG in the name are the original .dae and converted .fbx. The ones with 2 is the .dae converted from the .fbx and back to .fbx. | ||
:One other thought, the messed up names, I had that same problem when importing the ONCC as an object into Blender (Prior to the Collada option). The names of the body parts would be misapplied in Blender, so the head would be named something else, I don't remember the details. So that's probably what Iritscen used when he first started to modify Griffin's head | :One other thought, the messed up names, I had that same problem when importing the ONCC as an object into Blender (Prior to the Collada option). The names of the body parts would be misapplied in Blender, so the head would be named something else, I don't remember the details. So that's probably what Iritscen used when he first started to modify Griffin's head | ||
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# Used AETools' Import and Rebuild to bring .dae back into Oni. | # Used AETools' Import and Rebuild to bring .dae back into Oni. | ||
Notes: My Blender-exported .dae is 744KB, but the original .oni-exported .dae was only 228KB. Also, I later imported the Blender-exported .dae back into Blender itself and the model was horribly messed up ([http:// | Notes: My Blender-exported .dae is 744KB, but the original .oni-exported .dae was only 228KB. Also, I later imported the Blender-exported .dae back into Blender itself and the model was horribly messed up ([http://iritscen.oni2.net/wiki/Messed-up%20export.jpg]). | ||
Results: Oni immediately crashes when I shapeshift to Griffin. | Results: Oni immediately crashes when I shapeshift to Griffin. | ||
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# Halted process here, as it has the same issues as the Blender-exported Griffin and failure is certain. | # Halted process here, as it has the same issues as the Blender-exported Griffin and failure is certain. | ||
Notes: Second .dae is again much bigger than first; examining it, I see arrays of UV coord.s that are a few times larger than the first .dae's versions. Also, hundreds of normal coord.s have been added for each part, where before there were none. Also, the arrays found at places like "neck-geo-position" (now marked with <nowiki><p></p></nowiki>) seem to be in a completely different format than in the original .dae (series of whole numbers, always positive, rather than the +/- floating point numbers in the original .dae). See http://www.drop.io/blenderisdumb for the first and second .dae files. | Notes: Second .dae is again much bigger than first; examining it, I see arrays of UV coord.s that are a few times larger than the first .dae's versions. Also, hundreds of normal coord.s have been added for each part, where before there were none. Also, the arrays found at places like "neck-geo-position" (now marked with <nowiki><p></p></nowiki>) seem to be in a completely different format than in the original .dae (series of whole numbers, always positive, rather than the +/- floating point numbers in the original .dae). See <nowiki>http://www.drop.io/blenderisdumb</nowiki> (dead link) for the first and second .dae files. | ||
'''Working with Barabus'''<br> | '''Working with Barabus'''<br> | ||
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# Halted process due to seeing same issue with output. | # Halted process due to seeing same issue with output. | ||
Notes: Same issues as Motoko and Griffin with second .dae. See http://www.drop.io/blenderisdumb for the two .dae files. | Notes: Same issues as Motoko and Griffin with second .dae. See <nowiki>http://www.drop.io/blenderisdumb</nowiki> (dead link) for the two .dae files. | ||
Okay, so my basic point here is, What are we gonna go about the screwed-up DAE output from Blender's Collada plug-in? | Okay, so my basic point here is, What are we gonna go about the screwed-up DAE output from Blender's Collada plug-in? | ||
--[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:26, 5 June 2008 (CEST) | --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:26, 5 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
P.S.: If for some reason you want to post a file to that drop.io account, like maybe a fixed version of something, go to http://www.drop.io/blenderisdumb. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:57, 5 June 2008 (CEST) | P.S.: If for some reason you want to post a file to that drop.io account, like maybe a fixed version of something, go to <nowiki>http://www.drop.io/blenderisdumb</nowiki> (dead link). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:57, 5 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:I'll run the same tests as you did and post my results. Note your links to the .dae have timed out, better change the links just to the drop.io folder. | :I'll run the same tests as you did and post my results. Note your links to the .dae have timed out, better change the links just to the drop.io folder. | ||
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#Original ONCCbaraus.dae exported from Oni 144KB, exported from Blender 284KB. | #Original ONCCbaraus.dae exported from Oni 144KB, exported from Blender 284KB. | ||
#Imported back to Oni, works fine. | #Imported back to Oni, works fine. | ||
EDIT: Added ONCCbarabus_EdT.dae to http://www.drop.io/blenderisdumb | EDIT: Added ONCCbarabus_EdT.dae to <nowiki>http://www.drop.io/blenderisdumb</nowiki> (dead link) | ||
Working with HD same procedure as Iritscen's Griffin Attempt 4: | Working with HD same procedure as Iritscen's Griffin Attempt 4: | ||
#Original TRBSgriffin_body_high.dae exported from Oni 228KB, exported from Blender 436KB | #Original TRBSgriffin_body_high.dae exported from Oni 228KB, exported from Blender 436KB | ||
#Imported back to Oni, once Griffin comes into view (he was off camera, but once I turned toward him), Oni crashes. | #Imported back to Oni, once Griffin comes into view (he was off camera, but once I turned toward him), Oni crashes. | ||
The TRBSgriffin_body_high_EdT.dae was added to http://www.drop.io/blenderisdumb | The TRBSgriffin_body_high_EdT.dae was added to <nowiki>http://www.drop.io/blenderisdumb</nowiki> (dead link) | ||
Crash report: | Crash report: | ||
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==Collada import fixed in OniSplit v0.9.16== | ==Collada import fixed in OniSplit v0.9.16== | ||
:After testing the 3 post-Blender DAE provided by Iritscen (Barabas, Motoko, Griffin), it appears that only Griffin makes Oni crash as of OniSplit v0.9.15 (because the head ends up with 4457 points, and 4457>2048); for the other 2 models, the TRBS were faceted, but still well below the 2048 limit. It turns out that all the COLLADA files are OK (even if it's a shame what Blender does to normals): the actual problem was that OniSplit's [-normals] feature was implemented incorrectly and failed to eliminate the many duplicate vertices/normals/UVs. | :After testing the 3 post-Blender DAE provided by Iritscen (Barabas, Motoko, Griffin), it appears that only Griffin makes Oni crash as of OniSplit v0.9.15 (because the head ends up with 4457 points, and 4457>2048); for the other 2 models, the TRBS were faceted, but still well below the 2048 limit. It turns out that all the COLLADA files are OK (even if it's a shame what Blender does to normals): the actual problem was that OniSplit's [-normals] feature was implemented incorrectly and failed to eliminate the many duplicate vertices/normals/UVs. | ||
:The | :The NEW VERSION (<nowiki>https://cid-639aa31296681bfe.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Oni/OniSplit/OniSplit|_v0.9.16.zip</nowiki>, dead link) does that correctly, and should work optimally with both the .dae exported by Blender and the ones generated from Cheetah-made FBX by Autodesk's converter. Be sure to use the -normals tag so that the not-quite-smooth normals in the DAE are ignored and 100%-smooth normals are generated instead: that's when the point count of the TRBS will be minimal. Thus, Barabas's head went down from 129 points to 128 with OniSplit 0.9.16. | ||
:As for HD Griffin (imported with 0.9.16), the head has exactly 1024 points, and 1832 with cel-shading: clearly overkill, but at least it's below the limit and it doesn't make Oni crash. The source file I'm working with is TRBSgriffin_body_high_EdT.dae from that drop.io folder (why the frack are you guys messing with temporary links and accounts rather than uploading on oni2.net, BTW?) | :As for HD Griffin (imported with 0.9.16), the head has exactly 1024 points, and 1832 with cel-shading: clearly overkill, but at least it's below the limit and it doesn't make Oni crash. The source file I'm working with is TRBSgriffin_body_high_EdT.dae from that drop.io folder (why the frack are you guys messing with temporary links and accounts rather than uploading on oni2.net, BTW?) | ||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 19:52, 7 June 2008 (CEST) | ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 19:52, 7 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
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:::Thirdly, what the blam are you talking about? '''Asymmetric operations'''? In Griffin's ''face''? I hope that's not what you're saying. Please, geyser, if you really mean that, you must upload an image with the kind of notes that I made on the screenshots of Griffin and Muro, where I pointed out their existing flaws. I simply cannot imagine what you are seeing unless you are due for a new prescription on your glasses. Now, if you're talking about the hair, it's true that it is not perfectly symmetrical. This was intentional on my part, as a matter of fact. When dealing with stylized hair (such as the traditional anime spiky 'do), symmetry actually looks wrong. Hair is supposed to be organic. It's impossible to model it in a way that looks totally natural working with the technology available to us, but at the least, I thought that if Griffin's new hair had spikes added (in line with Lorraine's art), then they oughtn't to look symmetrical because then it looks cheesy. So the idea is that Griffin combs his hair back every day, but it goes back slightly differently on one side than on the other. I don't have the time to check out Konoko's original model at the moment, but I'm pretty sure her spikes are quite asymmetrical too. Not sure if that's what you were talking about or not, but honestly, saying things like "the mesh looks more like Mutant Griffin right now" is just not good for you. | :::Thirdly, what the blam are you talking about? '''Asymmetric operations'''? In Griffin's ''face''? I hope that's not what you're saying. Please, geyser, if you really mean that, you must upload an image with the kind of notes that I made on the screenshots of Griffin and Muro, where I pointed out their existing flaws. I simply cannot imagine what you are seeing unless you are due for a new prescription on your glasses. Now, if you're talking about the hair, it's true that it is not perfectly symmetrical. This was intentional on my part, as a matter of fact. When dealing with stylized hair (such as the traditional anime spiky 'do), symmetry actually looks wrong. Hair is supposed to be organic. It's impossible to model it in a way that looks totally natural working with the technology available to us, but at the least, I thought that if Griffin's new hair had spikes added (in line with Lorraine's art), then they oughtn't to look symmetrical because then it looks cheesy. So the idea is that Griffin combs his hair back every day, but it goes back slightly differently on one side than on the other. I don't have the time to check out Konoko's original model at the moment, but I'm pretty sure her spikes are quite asymmetrical too. Not sure if that's what you were talking about or not, but honestly, saying things like "the mesh looks more like Mutant Griffin right now" is just not good for you. | ||
:::--[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:26, 11 June 2008 (CEST) | :::--[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:26, 11 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
[[Category:Userspace]] | |||