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:::::::::::Communication with an alien mind is hard to get right, but a kaiju fight sequence is also not something that I'd recommend planning for an Oni sequel. However, perhaps there is no need for such creatures to surface or come ashore? If they are pelagic or abyssal, but possess a hivemind that (when awake) turns the aquasphere into a "thinking ocean", then supposedly they can cause tsunamis and wipe out most of the large cities -- yet they won't be able to do to much about deserts or mountain areas (at least at first). So the direct threat from the Diluvians' awakening seems manageable to me -- you just move further inland, find ways to counter the xenoforming processes (or adapt to them), and ultimately abandon Earth as a last resort. Remote "xenoimpregnation" and "indoctrination" by the Diluvians may be a problem, but probably such interference can be "screened" or "jammed" somehow, too (once you know it exists). The way I see it, the largest threat in this story may be a mere side effect of the Diluvians awakening -- namely, as their collective Daodan aura comes back to full power, it increases the Earth's "exposure"/openness to the Phase. Portals now open not just in labs or WPs, but all over the world: ball lightnings, Screamers and Mukade-knows-what-else... It doesn't matter if the Diluvians themselves are relatively placid -- once they're awake, there will be more "phase hazards" on the surface than ever before, warlords will be empowered with new weapons and entities, and civilization as we know it will take quite a blow (even if not in a doomsday kind of way). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::Communication with an alien mind is hard to get right, but a kaiju fight sequence is also not something that I'd recommend planning for an Oni sequel. However, perhaps there is no need for such creatures to surface or come ashore? If they are pelagic or abyssal, but possess a hivemind that (when awake) turns the aquasphere into a "thinking ocean", then supposedly they can cause tsunamis and wipe out most of the large cities -- yet they won't be able to do to much about deserts or mountain areas (at least at first). So the direct threat from the Diluvians' awakening seems manageable to me -- you just move further inland, find ways to counter the xenoforming processes (or adapt to them), and ultimately abandon Earth as a last resort. Remote "xenoimpregnation" and "indoctrination" by the Diluvians may be a problem, but probably such interference can be "screened" or "jammed" somehow, too (once you know it exists). The way I see it, the largest threat in this story may be a mere side effect of the Diluvians awakening -- namely, as their collective Daodan aura comes back to full power, it increases the Earth's "exposure"/openness to the Phase. Portals now open not just in labs or WPs, but all over the world: ball lightnings, Screamers and Mukade-knows-what-else... It doesn't matter if the Diluvians themselves are relatively placid -- once they're awake, there will be more "phase hazards" on the surface than ever before, warlords will be empowered with new weapons and entities, and civilization as we know it will take quite a blow (even if not in a doomsday kind of way). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::To be clear, I never planned to have an actual battle against a kaiju in Oni 2. It is totally doable, as plenty of video games have tackled the idea of fighting massive-scale bosses, but I don't think it's in keeping with Oni's spirit. The idea was to have just the hand of the alien enemy reaching through a phase portal, with the understanding that if the portal isn't closed soon, he'll be all the way through. The final battle would be against human-scale foes who serve the Diluvians, and it would probably be a timed battle. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::To be clear, I never planned to have an actual battle against a kaiju in Oni 2. It is totally doable, as plenty of video games have tackled the idea of fighting massive-scale bosses, but I don't think it's in keeping with Oni's spirit. The idea was to have just the hand of the alien enemy reaching through a phase portal, with the understanding that if the portal isn't closed soon, he'll be all the way through. The final battle would be against human-scale foes who serve the Diluvians, and it would probably be a timed battle. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::Here you go again with an "alien enemy" going for a very literal "land grab". Simply put, I'm against it: it's human motives in alien attire, and human-sized minions don't really help. Also, to me it sounds more like "Dunby 4" than "Oni 2", see the final battles of [https://half-life.fandom.com/wiki/Gene_Worm#Gallery HL:Opposing Force] or [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= | :::::::::::::Here you go again with an "alien enemy" going for a very literal "land grab". Simply put, I'm against it: it's human motives in alien attire, and human-sized minions don't really help. Also, to me it sounds more like "Dunby 4" than "Oni 2", see the final battles of [https://half-life.fandom.com/wiki/Gene_Worm#Gallery HL:Opposing Force] or [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URXzXyThaXE&t=79s Borderlands]{{ref|group=geyser|I hope you can appreciate Angel's eerily fitting advice in "Destroy the Destroyer": ''Don't give up! This creature may be immortal in its own realm, but in this reality it cannot survive without a host, and that makes it vulnerable. When it becomes flesh and blood, it can be hurt, even killed. You just need to know where to aim.}} -- and that's just off the top of a non-gamer's head. I'll try and present you with a final challenge concept that's more original and compelling (to me, of course). Off the top of my head, taking the fight ''inside'' of a giant alien is something I'm sure to bring up, so here goes: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNqSLisW6z0 Fiona and Sasha inside the Traveler]--[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::I don't know what to tell you. Every idea can be phrased as, "It's like X meets Y." That's the basis of the "elevator pitch". If it wouldn't seem spiteful, to make my point I'd do the same on this page for each of your ideas suggested so far. It seems counter-productive to dwell on the fact that something has been done before. I'll repeat myself: There is nothing new under the sun. The only thing that matters is whether a trope has been used to the point of cliché. The idea of aliens trying to take over the planet is indeed an old notion, going at least as far back as H.G. Wells. It's also not a new idea to interact with aliens who have no specific conscious purpose. I think what matters more than precedent is simply considering where the most dramatic potential, fun gameplay, or aesthetic enjoyment can be found, and going with that option. I certainly am not recommending a final boss fight where you have to shoot the portion of the alien that has entered our world, so there's no need to link to examples of such encounters from other games. That Borderlands battle, for instance, is boring as hell, so it's a good argument for human-scale enemies. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::I don't know what to tell you. Every idea can be phrased as, "It's like X meets Y." That's the basis of the "elevator pitch". If it wouldn't seem spiteful, to make my point I'd do the same on this page for each of your ideas suggested so far. It seems counter-productive to dwell on the fact that something has been done before. I'll repeat myself: There is nothing new under the sun. The only thing that matters is whether a trope has been used to the point of cliché. The idea of aliens trying to take over the planet is indeed an old notion, going at least as far back as H.G. Wells. It's also not a new idea to interact with aliens who have no specific conscious purpose. I think what matters more than precedent is simply considering where the most dramatic potential, fun gameplay, or aesthetic enjoyment can be found, and going with that option. I certainly am not recommending a final boss fight where you have to shoot the portion of the alien that has entered our world, so there's no need to link to examples of such encounters from other games. That Borderlands battle, for instance, is boring as hell, so it's a good argument for human-scale enemies. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::I'm not in favor of the idea that the aliens control the ocean and can cause tsunamis. As you pointed out, a tsunami could be avoided by staying inland. So it's either world-ending (no way to fight back against a massive wave), or it's out of sight and of little importance to the characters you're controlling. It also changes the nature of the story's big threat from xenoforming to a more conventional end-of-world scenario. I like the rest of your suggestion, about the increase in phase activity or anomalies, though this could also be explained by the simple fact that humans invented phase tech and are finding an increasing number of ways to use it, perhaps unaware of the dangers that come with it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::I'm not in favor of the idea that the aliens control the ocean and can cause tsunamis. As you pointed out, a tsunami could be avoided by staying inland. So it's either world-ending (no way to fight back against a massive wave), or it's out of sight and of little importance to the characters you're controlling. It also changes the nature of the story's big threat from xenoforming to a more conventional end-of-world scenario. I like the rest of your suggestion, about the increase in phase activity or anomalies, though this could also be explained by the simple fact that humans invented phase tech and are finding an increasing number of ways to use it, perhaps unaware of the dangers that come with it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
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::::::::::::::First off, the STURMANDERUNG consoles are very, very badly written, from the funkily-indexed "plan for world domination" to the infamous "increase percentage", and finally Konoko's "monkey hacking". Now is as good a time as any to say that I'd probably rewrite it, and it will help if we can agree on the implications that we'd like to convey when and if that happens (because self-centered overstatement is a sin ^_^ ). Some of the most obvious things I'd fix: steps (4), (8) and (12) are missing, and (10) is the same as (6) -- carried over, possibly, and leading towards (14) -- whereas ACC sabotage starts as early as (1) and (2) and then ACCs are never mentioned until (13). More generally, the timeline of mountain-compound construction, ACC sabotage and satellite uplinking needs to be clarified -- at least to the point where those consoles don't look like something Hardy threw together at the last minute. And of course I'd try and expand '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' into something relatable. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::First off, the STURMANDERUNG consoles are very, very badly written, from the funkily-indexed "plan for world domination" to the infamous "increase percentage", and finally Konoko's "monkey hacking". Now is as good a time as any to say that I'd probably rewrite it, and it will help if we can agree on the implications that we'd like to convey when and if that happens (because self-centered overstatement is a sin ^_^ ). Some of the most obvious things I'd fix: steps (4), (8) and (12) are missing, and (10) is the same as (6) -- carried over, possibly, and leading towards (14) -- whereas ACC sabotage starts as early as (1) and (2) and then ACCs are never mentioned until (13). More generally, the timeline of mountain-compound construction, ACC sabotage and satellite uplinking needs to be clarified -- at least to the point where those consoles don't look like something Hardy threw together at the last minute. And of course I'd try and expand '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' into something relatable. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::::Okay, the Sturdmanderung consoles are indeed rather problematic, so I won't try to argue anything from them. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::::Okay, the Sturdmanderung consoles are indeed rather problematic, so I won't try to argue anything from them. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::Second -- face it, man: your "it doesn't feel like the reason that the story is implying" and "the impression one gets is that..." are entirely subjective. You are suggesting a "loss of knowledge and ability regarding the Daodan" as fact, I will argue to the contrary. And, if it is true that Diluvian interference "makes as much sense as a theory as anything else does", then by all means ''do'' hear out what I make of Oni's material -- spoiler: in my view, there isn't much of a lacuna to fill --, and just what the "anything else" might be. Simple things first, let me reiterate that even if Kerr brought some project notes along (like, on a portable drive) -- and thus was easily cornered by Griffin when it was time to implant and monitor Mai's Chrysalis --, the WCG's regulations wouldn't have allowed Griffin to banalize symbiosis and to experiment on other people. | ::::::::::::::Second -- face it, man: your "it doesn't feel like the reason that the story is implying" and "the impression one gets is that..." are entirely subjective. You are suggesting a "loss of knowledge and ability regarding the Daodan" as fact, I will argue to the contrary. And, if it is true that Diluvian interference "makes as much sense as a theory as anything else does", then by all means ''do'' hear out what I make of Oni's material -- spoiler: in my view, there isn't much of a lacuna to fill --, and just what the "anything else" might be. Simple things first, let me reiterate that even if Kerr brought some project notes along (like, on a portable drive) -- and thus was easily cornered by Griffin when it was time to implant and monitor Mai's Chrysalis --, the WCG's regulations wouldn't have allowed Griffin to banalize symbiosis and to experiment on other people.{{ref|group=geyser|'''G.C.''' How do you plead?<br>'''J.J.''' Not guilty! My experiments are only theoretical, and completely within legal boundaries.<br>'''G.C.''' We believe you actually... created something.<br>'''J.J.''' "Created something?" Hah! ''That'' would be... irresponsible! and unethical! I would never, ever... <Stitch is revealed> ...make... more than one.}} Griffin is probably frustrated about this, but his hands are tied by the Directorate, and this frustration escalates to the science team.{{ref|[[Quotes/Consoles#Sytropin|'''Quote:''']] Project goals remain unclear: Commander Griffin seems content to stabilize the host/Daodan symbiote for as long as possible. If she is intended as a contingency of some kind the team has recommended cryofreeze as an all around safer alternative to keeping the organism active and evolving, however slowly.}} That's why Kerr ''et al'' can't do much besides observing Konoko's "wild" transformation, trying their best to keep it sedated, and recommending cryo as the only sensible approach. Some of those scientists would be happy to have more test subjects, but they're prisoners in this, so they don't get to call any shots. And they can't try anything too daring on Konoko, either, or they may ruin Griffin's only trump card against Muro. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::Sorry to be the bearer of accurate canon, but "secondary symbiotes" are never mentioned in Oni. All we know is that Konoko is one of two | ::::::::::::::Sorry to be the bearer of accurate canon, but "secondary symbiotes" are never mentioned in Oni. All we know is that Konoko is one of two{{ref|group=geyser|Strictly speaking, when the sci-goon says "You...you're the other prime symbiote!", this ''may'' imply -- even if a bit of a stretch -- that Konoko is merely the only prime symbiote ''outside the sci-goon's ordinary scope'', i.e., that there may be multiple ''familiar'' prime symbiotes at the Syndicate, but only one that has been grown over at the TCTF, and thus qualifies as an "other" (unfamiliar), or even (arguably) as a "''the'' other". Also, there may have been another prime symbiote at the Syndicate, but if he's dead-ish now (like, I dunno, from a broken neck), then that would leave only Muro as "the" prime symbiote, and Mai as "the (only) other".}} "prime symbiotes", as implied by [[Quotes/Speech#Is_that_a_yes?|THIS]] sci-goon and by the [[Quotes/Consoles#CHAPTER_12_._SINS_OF_THE_FATHER|Science Prison consoles]], where Konoko is labeled '''1B(h)''' -- likely because '''1A(h)''' (Muro's Chrysalis) was created first. We do not know what any of the other symbiotes are called -- "secondary" ("accessory"), "subsequent" ("post-prime"), "lesser" ("subprime"), "composite" ("reductible")... -- and we don't know a priori that "secondary" symbiotes are in any way inferior to "prime" ones. Maybe their only handicap with respect to a prime/emeritus symbiote such as Muro is that their Chrysalises were grown/implanted much later in time (and into grown adults) -- and therefore Muro, who has been working on his symbiosis for years, is confident that none of the later-implanted symbiotes will end up as a clear rival to him. In some aspects, later symbiotes may be ''more'' advanced if anything, as compared to prime/emeritus ones -- more stable, easier to implant and monitor (not needing to be implanted at a young age, and not requiring a dedicated scientific team to look after them 24/7). Developing a protocol that allows mass production and implantation of Chrysalises, without it becoming a QA/support nightmare -- that's more than enough justification for the many years of "post-prime" research that went into "Daodan core technology" (i.e., again, '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' -- whatever they are). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::::I maintain that it makes no sense that we see so few symbiotes in Oni if the technology exists at both TCTF and Syndicate to make more. Apparently we read certain parts of the story very differently, and there's no resolving that, no matter how many words we throw at it. The fact remains that the only two prime symbiotes are the ones that were implanted with the Chrysalises grown under Hasegawa's supervision. You can speculate all you want about additional symbiotes, and of course that's an avenue that one could choose to explore in a sequel if one decided to insert new facts into the original story, but it's very clear that Hardy had two prime symbiotes in mind, Muro and Mai, and that something had happened, after the development of these two Chryalises, to explain why more could not be made. Don't bother posting any more "rebuttals" to this, as I won't be convinced by them. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::::I maintain that it makes no sense that we see so few symbiotes in Oni if the technology exists at both TCTF and Syndicate to make more. Apparently we read certain parts of the story very differently, and there's no resolving that, no matter how many words we throw at it. The fact remains that the only two prime symbiotes are the ones that were implanted with the Chrysalises grown under Hasegawa's supervision. You can speculate all you want about additional symbiotes, and of course that's an avenue that one could choose to explore in a sequel if one decided to insert new facts into the original story, but it's very clear that Hardy had two prime symbiotes in mind, Muro and Mai, and that something had happened, after the development of these two Chryalises, to explain why more could not be made. Don't bother posting any more "rebuttals" to this, as I won't be convinced by them. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::Speaking of "Daodan core technology", here's another real-time brainstorming idea | ::::::::::::::Speaking of "Daodan core technology", here's another real-time brainstorming idea{{ref|group=geyser|Actually, that's only half true: it feels like well-forgotten old stuff rather than 100% new brainstorming. When I elaborated on Barabas [[Barabas#Barabas_as_power_without_alienation|HERE]], I already brought up the "paradigm of controlled technology" and implied that new symbiotes (at least Barabas) may have been deliberately limited in their abilities, e.g., by installing a barrier/interface that keeps the Chrysalis from infiltrating the brain. However, at that point I hadn't given much thought to the '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' codes, and didn't read much into "Daodan core technology", either.}} that just might shed some light on what's going on. Remember how Barabas looks fairly close to Imago-as-we-know-it (livid and veiny, horns, funny eyes) and has superpowers, yet doesn't seem to go into overpower, and overall seems inferior to Mai (a tradeoff, it would seem, for remaining sane, articulate, and mostly human, despite a near-complete transformation)? The same can be said of Mukade, if we don't imply some outstanding "emeritus" status for him, and pretend that he's just "another Barabas": with his own set of superpowers, more formidable as a foe than Barabas -- but also, it would seem, less stable on the mental level (with animal pulsions, mad talk, etc), and still no match for Mai (assuming he didn't lose on purpose) and no sign of Daodan overpower. Now, could it be that the "Daodan core technology" is a ''follow-up'' to prime Daodan symbiosis, which takes care of the issues identified by Kerr's colleagues, and allows the implantation of a Chrysalis to an adult, with little risk of instability and virtually no need for advanced monitoring? In this view, the word "core" does not have the basic meaning of "let's develop some generic technology for the core/essence of that process/entity that we know as Daodan". Instead we're looking at a qualitatively new protocol for Daodan symbiosis -- one that involves a new device or concept called "core" (or "Daodan core") --, and it's this novel "core approach" to symbiosis that (7 - '''ssob''') and (9 - '''uwlb''') are about: they are experiments with adult hosts, whose transformation is constrained/restricted/directed in some way or other, as opposed to prime symbiotes for whom it is "bound to run free". One could assume, for simplicity, that '''uwlb''' (9) is Mukade (the more powerful of the two, but also a more deeply alienated freak) and '''ssob''' (7) is Barabas (a more stable version, even if somewhat weak-ass as compared to a "prime"). Together they pave the way for mass production -- not of Muro's peers (of course not), but of ''Barabases'' -- "stabilized"/"tamed"/"constrained" symbiotes, strong enough to survive in a toxic world, but not so strong as to challenge Muro's authority -- an ideal balance of muscle and loyalty. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::Summing up, I don't see much in Oni canon to support the view that "11) Symbiote candidate selection and implantation" is about Muro trying to surround himself with "prime"-quality ''peer'' symbiotes (and failing for whatever reason, making do with "secondary" ones instead). Rather, whoever "sells his soul to [Muro] for a Chrysalis" (as Mai puts it) will get to be a '''"ssob"''' -- reassuringly stable mentally if not physically, even if somewhat limited with respect to Muro himself. From Muro's point of view, that's ideal, and -- judging by Barabas's devotion to Muro -- Muro's minions would have been quite content with "subprime" faculties. Closer allies may get to be '''"uwlb"'''s -- powerful in their own way, but still no match for Muro (supposedly). That of course leaves open the question of Hasegawa's whereabouts, whether he left and (if he did) how much damage he did by leaving. With the Diluvians added to the equation, an extra question would be whether they were "aware" of Muro's STURMANDERUNG and were trying to counteract it (at least the Daodan research part). My position regarding the latter is a bit like Laplace's when asked why God was never mentioned in his ''Mécanique celeste'': [[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#I_had_no_need_of_that_hypothesis|"I had no need of that hypothesis."]] | ::::::::::::::Summing up, I don't see much in Oni canon to support the view that "11) Symbiote candidate selection and implantation" is about Muro trying to surround himself with "prime"-quality ''peer'' symbiotes (and failing for whatever reason, making do with "secondary" ones instead). Rather, whoever "sells his soul to [Muro] for a Chrysalis" (as Mai puts it) will get to be a '''"ssob"''' -- reassuringly stable mentally if not physically, even if somewhat limited with respect to Muro himself. From Muro's point of view, that's ideal, and -- judging by Barabas's devotion to Muro -- Muro's minions would have been quite content with "subprime" faculties. Closer allies may get to be '''"uwlb"'''s -- powerful in their own way, but still no match for Muro (supposedly). That of course leaves open the question of Hasegawa's whereabouts, whether he left and (if he did) how much damage he did by leaving. With the Diluvians added to the equation, an extra question would be whether they were "aware" of Muro's STURMANDERUNG and were trying to counteract it (at least the Daodan research part). My position regarding the latter is a bit like Laplace's when asked why God was never mentioned in his ''Mécanique celeste'': [[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#I_had_no_need_of_that_hypothesis|"I had no need of that hypothesis."]]{{ref|group=geyser|Even if Laplace didn't feel the need to mention God in his treatise about celestial bodies, he did mention a [[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#Laplace's_demon|demon]]. Unlike Maxwell's demon, Laplace's demon is huge, and is really God in disguise.}} --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::P.S. I don't have backronyms ready for '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' (and if we rewrite that part, then we can always pick our own acronyms), but I really think they're an important piece of the puzzle when it comes to understanding TITAN (whatever it is) and the STURMANDERUNG project as planned out by Muro. Spontaneous ideas that came to mind are "Stabilized Symbiosis / Organic Body" (Barabas) and "Unstable Within Liminal Bounds" (Mukade). I also haven't addressed the part where Muro is stealing experimental gene surgery equipment; I might finish rationalizing that soon. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::P.S. I don't have backronyms ready for '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' (and if we rewrite that part, then we can always pick our own acronyms), but I really think they're an important piece of the puzzle when it comes to understanding TITAN (whatever it is) and the STURMANDERUNG project as planned out by Muro. Spontaneous ideas that came to mind are "Stabilized Symbiosis / Organic Body" (Barabas) and "Unstable Within Liminal Bounds" (Mukade). I also haven't addressed the part where Muro is stealing experimental gene surgery equipment; I might finish rationalizing that soon. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::::Feel free to expand on these ideas, but I'm afraid this is a road I can't travel with you. I'm at my limit, as far as the time I'm willing to spend arguing about the premise for a sequel that neither of us is working on. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::::Feel free to expand on these ideas, but I'm afraid this is a road I can't travel with you. I'm at my limit, as far as the time I'm willing to spend arguing about the premise for a sequel that neither of us is working on. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
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::::::::::::I always thought the increasing toxicity was the result of the BioCrisis, whatever that may be. It's an ongoing problem, building over time. [[Quotes/Consoles#BioCrisis|THIS]] console makes it clear that the toxins have been building for a while, and the BioCrisis Subcommittee is refitting their ACCs to try to keep up. They don't seem puzzled by this, nor have they noticed that the toxins are coming from their own tampered-with ACCs, which would be a rather large thing to overlook. The increase in toxins (though poorly calculated in that console) is thus of "natural" origin. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::I always thought the increasing toxicity was the result of the BioCrisis, whatever that may be. It's an ongoing problem, building over time. [[Quotes/Consoles#BioCrisis|THIS]] console makes it clear that the toxins have been building for a while, and the BioCrisis Subcommittee is refitting their ACCs to try to keep up. They don't seem puzzled by this, nor have they noticed that the toxins are coming from their own tampered-with ACCs, which would be a rather large thing to overlook. The increase in toxins (though poorly calculated in that console) is thus of "natural" origin. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::The [[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Secondary_Stage|STURMANDERUNG console]] that I quoted above contains a "baseline report" on Dioxin levels in the scope of Muro's STURMANDERUNG project, so when they say it went from 97 ppm to 100 ppm and then to 152 ppm, they're presenting it as a consequence of the ACC sabotage. If you've "always believed" that this Dioxin increase has "natural" causes (i.e., outside WCG turf, e.g., inside the WPs), and that ACC operators wouldn't have been able to overlook it if it's their own facilities that contributed to the increase -- that's fine. It only means that we will have to rewrite that STURMANDERUNG console, which is also fine because I hate it (as well as all the other STURMANDERUNG consoles; see above). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::The [[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Secondary_Stage|STURMANDERUNG console]] that I quoted above contains a "baseline report" on Dioxin levels in the scope of Muro's STURMANDERUNG project, so when they say it went from 97 ppm to 100 ppm and then to 152 ppm, they're presenting it as a consequence of the ACC sabotage. If you've "always believed" that this Dioxin increase has "natural" causes (i.e., outside WCG turf, e.g., inside the WPs), and that ACC operators wouldn't have been able to overlook it if it's their own facilities that contributed to the increase -- that's fine. It only means that we will have to rewrite that STURMANDERUNG console, which is also fine because I hate it (as well as all the other STURMANDERUNG consoles; see above). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::Then again, we are shown/told that: 1) Musashi/BGI is manufacturing atmospheric processing equipment | :::::::::::::Then again, we are shown/told that: 1) Musashi/BGI is manufacturing atmospheric processing equipment{{ref|[[Quotes/Diary#CHAPTER_02_._ENGINES_OF_EVIL|'''Quote:''']] Some of this stuff looks like atmospheric processing equipment. I can't believe I KNOW that! Maybe that means I'm a nerd?}}; 2) Muro has agents that have ''infiltrated'' ACCs worldwide{{ref|[[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Primary_Stage|'''Quote:''']] 1) Worldwide infiltration of Atmospheric Conversion Centers}}, and ''then'' sabotaged the ACCs' "core filtration systems"{{ref|[[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Primary_Stage|'''Quote:''']] 2) Modification of ACC core filtration systems with smuggled parts}}. This means that there would be people at each ACC (whitecoats and/or engineers) who would be able to temporarily conceal the sabotage (ever-so-subtle "toxification" of the filtration system), one facility at a time, in the event of suspicion and inspection -- not unlike Volkswagen's [[wp:Volkswagen_emissions_scandal|defeat devices]]. That's just one quick way to rationalize it, but I think it's fairly close to the mark: early "infiltration" means that Muro has undercover agents at the ACCs, which is how he's been able to mess with ACCs for so long without anyone noticing.{{ref|group=geyser|The not-so-subtle ACC raid in chapters 7 and 8 is something completely different from how Muro had been managing ACCs until then. I don't have an answer yet as for what business Muro had at the ACC -- or at Vago BioTech, for that matter.}} --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::I still find it hard to reconcile the WCG's awareness of the Wilderness threat ("losing battle" and all) with the seeming unawareness of Griffin's Daodan team. It's OK to have a surge in xeno-life post-Oni (triggered by Konoko's Cataclysm, perhaps?), but at the time of Oni's events I'd expect the xeno-flora to be mostly dormant, complementary to the other sources of pollution that may exist in the Zones (man-made, phase-enhanced, etc) and to the toxin rise, but not readily identifiable either as an invasive threat or as a form of Daodan symbiosis. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::I still find it hard to reconcile the WCG's awareness of the Wilderness threat ("losing battle" and all) with the seeming unawareness of Griffin's Daodan team. It's OK to have a surge in xeno-life post-Oni (triggered by Konoko's Cataclysm, perhaps?), but at the time of Oni's events I'd expect the xeno-flora to be mostly dormant, complementary to the other sources of pollution that may exist in the Zones (man-made, phase-enhanced, etc) and to the toxin rise, but not readily identifiable either as an invasive threat or as a form of Daodan symbiosis. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::To be clear, Griffin's team is interested in Konoko, how she functions, and how to contain her. They're a police force, basically. You'd have to talk to someone much higher up to see what they know about the Wilderness. Your suggestion is certainly a decent one, that the true nature of the wildlife in the Preserves is not known. After all, if people commonly knew where the Daodan came from, Hasegawa's work would be more easily replicable. But perhaps he never shared that with anyone, or perhaps just his brother-in-law, who kept the secret. There's honestly little reason for the alien nature of the Wilderness to come up in Oni, as big of a deal as it may be. Yes, you'd think BWest would have made sure to mention it in a console somewhere as a natural part of their world-building, but no matter what we can't deny that there's some kind of big gap in Oni's story. This is just my proposal for filling it. It's entirely possible that hardly anyone in Oni's world realized that the alien life was alien until after the game ended. After all, if it's really life from Earth's past, then it's not *that* alien to begin with. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::To be clear, Griffin's team is interested in Konoko, how she functions, and how to contain her. They're a police force, basically. You'd have to talk to someone much higher up to see what they know about the Wilderness. Your suggestion is certainly a decent one, that the true nature of the wildlife in the Preserves is not known. After all, if people commonly knew where the Daodan came from, Hasegawa's work would be more easily replicable. But perhaps he never shared that with anyone, or perhaps just his brother-in-law, who kept the secret. There's honestly little reason for the alien nature of the Wilderness to come up in Oni, as big of a deal as it may be. Yes, you'd think BWest would have made sure to mention it in a console somewhere as a natural part of their world-building, but no matter what we can't deny that there's some kind of big gap in Oni's story. This is just my proposal for filling it. It's entirely possible that hardly anyone in Oni's world realized that the alien life was alien until after the game ended. After all, if it's really life from Earth's past, then it's not *that* alien to begin with. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
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:::::::::::The antagonist in "my" Oni 2 would have been the deeply alienated head of the META technocracy (best seen as a "collective Mukade"). Very broadly, META is a Daodan-enhanced government, forcing hyperevolutionary paradigm shifts on post-Oni society and essentially xenoforming civilization itself (rather than the biosphere's lower lifeforms). The natural resistance to this process is embodied by Phoenix folks (in the same way as Konoko's mind and body resist the hyperevolutionary alienation brought about by her Chrysalis). This is the basic concept of host-Chrysalis "symbiosis" (actually a struggle on the verge of insanity and alienation), transposed from the level of an individual to that of civilization as a whole. I've always thought of it as fairly straightforward and having enough plot-driving potential (once the initially underpowered protagonist reveals herself as a Daodan symbiote, she'll become an enemy both for META and for most of her Phoenix buddies). As for the ultimate goal for META's hyperevolution -- there doesn't have to be any, but if tropes must be, then either META is "good" and intends to avert a "clash of two worlds" kind of threat -- like the Diluvians waking up and/or phase portals opening all over the place (with water and/or Screamers and/or furry zerglings pouring through), or a good old comet or asteroid headed our way... Or, META is "evil", performing an increasingly unfathomable alienation of humanity, with little regard for those old-school humans who (like Phoenix - and Konoko?) are not welcoming such a transition. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::The antagonist in "my" Oni 2 would have been the deeply alienated head of the META technocracy (best seen as a "collective Mukade"). Very broadly, META is a Daodan-enhanced government, forcing hyperevolutionary paradigm shifts on post-Oni society and essentially xenoforming civilization itself (rather than the biosphere's lower lifeforms). The natural resistance to this process is embodied by Phoenix folks (in the same way as Konoko's mind and body resist the hyperevolutionary alienation brought about by her Chrysalis). This is the basic concept of host-Chrysalis "symbiosis" (actually a struggle on the verge of insanity and alienation), transposed from the level of an individual to that of civilization as a whole. I've always thought of it as fairly straightforward and having enough plot-driving potential (once the initially underpowered protagonist reveals herself as a Daodan symbiote, she'll become an enemy both for META and for most of her Phoenix buddies). As for the ultimate goal for META's hyperevolution -- there doesn't have to be any, but if tropes must be, then either META is "good" and intends to avert a "clash of two worlds" kind of threat -- like the Diluvians waking up and/or phase portals opening all over the place (with water and/or Screamers and/or furry zerglings pouring through), or a good old comet or asteroid headed our way... Or, META is "evil", performing an increasingly unfathomable alienation of humanity, with little regard for those old-school humans who (like Phoenix - and Konoko?) are not welcoming such a transition. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::See my comments above on my preference for a more concrete story. There's nothing wrong with an alienated techno-hegemon, but if he's the only villain in the story, it feels a bit world-weary for me. I want a sense of urgency and visceral danger in Oni 2. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::See my comments above on my preference for a more concrete story. There's nothing wrong with an alienated techno-hegemon, but if he's the only villain in the story, it feels a bit world-weary for me. I want a sense of urgency and visceral danger in Oni 2. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= | :::::::::::::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAjCIgPX95w World-weary], yes (oh yes!), but if he sends [[:Image:Duality concept art - BioCorp VR avatar.jpg|THESE]] after you, then you'll still be in more than enough visceral danger, trust me -- and that's only part of what META has in store. Also please don't ignore what I said above about how META could be "good" and merely building up strength to counter greater threats (Diluvians/Screamers/whatever) -- it's all there in my iteration, so don't act like it isn't. And of course the Phoenix faction would be Mai's more or less radical enemy (once it becomes clear that she's "one of [[:Image:Duality concept art - BioCorp VR avatar.jpg|THEM]]"), and multiple other factions would either pre-exist or split off from META and Phoenix, following Mai's/META's actions and/or a parallel evolution of the Diluvian/Phase threat. If that's not potential for a concrete story with urgency and such, then I don't know what is. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::I'm not doubting that your Oni 2 would have a visceral aspect to the gameplay, but I was questioning how compelling this character would be on a story level. Even talking to the guy in a cutscene could be a drag. But I'm not saying it can't work. And yes, I did favor the idea of having Mai hook up with a cell of the Rebellion, but eventually have a major falling out with them (perhaps when they find out who/what she is). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::I'm not doubting that your Oni 2 would have a visceral aspect to the gameplay, but I was questioning how compelling this character would be on a story level. Even talking to the guy in a cutscene could be a drag. But I'm not saying it can't work. And yes, I did favor the idea of having Mai hook up with a cell of the Rebellion, but eventually have a major falling out with them (perhaps when they find out who/what she is). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::P.S. Here I was, looking into [[wp:Ediacaran biota|Ediacaran biota]] and the [[wp:Hallucigenia|Cambrian explosion]] (musing on possible Diluvian candidates), and then it hit me: tectonics! There is actually a major problem with the Diluvians going into a deep stasis following the P-Tr extinction event, and regaining consciousness only 250+ Ma later. As it is, plate tectonics have either subducted or elevated the entirety of the pre-Triassic seabed (Panthalassa), so either way the Diluvians would have gone from dormant to extinct long before they'd have had a chance to "stir up trouble" in 2000 AD. The only way to resolve this is to imply that, in the meantime, the Diluvians haven't just been "stirring in their sleep" to make adjustments to the biosphere; they must also have had a cycle where they'd wake up and relocate -- away from subduction trenches and towards oceanic rifts. During such "sleepwalking" events they'd probably be even more phase-active than while "stirring", triggering episodes of high "phase presence", along with evolutionary explosions. The emergence of phase phenomena prior to Oni's events, and the possible alienation of Wilderness Preserves can be part of such an event -- a mere side effect of Diluvian migration along the ocean floor, rather than a "deliberate" xenoforming, let alone a means to an "invasion". It will still be ominous, of course, but rather because of the wide range of phase hazards (and alienating mutations) that the otherwise placid creatures are causing to appear. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:58, 30 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::P.S. Here I was, looking into [[wp:Ediacaran biota|Ediacaran biota]] and the [[wp:Hallucigenia|Cambrian explosion]] (musing on possible Diluvian candidates), and then it hit me: tectonics! There is actually a major problem with the Diluvians going into a deep stasis following the P-Tr extinction event, and regaining consciousness only 250+ Ma later. As it is, plate tectonics have either subducted or elevated the entirety of the pre-Triassic seabed (Panthalassa), so either way the Diluvians would have gone from dormant to extinct long before they'd have had a chance to "stir up trouble" in 2000 AD. The only way to resolve this is to imply that, in the meantime, the Diluvians haven't just been "stirring in their sleep" to make adjustments to the biosphere; they must also have had a cycle where they'd wake up and relocate -- away from subduction trenches and towards oceanic rifts. During such "sleepwalking" events they'd probably be even more phase-active than while "stirring", triggering episodes of high "phase presence", along with evolutionary explosions. The emergence of phase phenomena prior to Oni's events, and the possible alienation of Wilderness Preserves can be part of such an event -- a mere side effect of Diluvian migration along the ocean floor, rather than a "deliberate" xenoforming, let alone a means to an "invasion". It will still be ominous, of course, but rather because of the wide range of phase hazards (and alienating mutations) that the otherwise placid creatures are causing to appear. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:58, 30 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
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:::::::::::::My take on this (which redeems the Diluvians' godlike intellect, if anything) is that perhaps they wouldn't have any "chambers" (there's nothing wrong with lying low on the ocean floor, with a bit of sediment on top), and that they'd have instinctive alarm calls that would periodically wake them up when a subduction or a shallowing is imminent (or when the ocean's acidity becomes critical and such), which would allow them to react and/or relocate. This implies that they'd have cycles of long stasis and brief awareness, which (if we assume "Phase activity" to be a side effect of Diluvian activity) may coincide with some of the more enigmatic evolutionary explosions and extinctions (P-Tr being only one of those). Not having chambers (or architecture), they'd be free to relocate to anywhere on the ocean floor, as long as it's far enough from a subduction zone. As primitive beings hyperevolved from Cambrian/Ediacaran biota, they'd be mostly soft-bodied, but possibly with a carapace made of rock and sediment (not unlike [[wp:Caddisfly#Underwater_structures|Caddisfly larvae]]). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::My take on this (which redeems the Diluvians' godlike intellect, if anything) is that perhaps they wouldn't have any "chambers" (there's nothing wrong with lying low on the ocean floor, with a bit of sediment on top), and that they'd have instinctive alarm calls that would periodically wake them up when a subduction or a shallowing is imminent (or when the ocean's acidity becomes critical and such), which would allow them to react and/or relocate. This implies that they'd have cycles of long stasis and brief awareness, which (if we assume "Phase activity" to be a side effect of Diluvian activity) may coincide with some of the more enigmatic evolutionary explosions and extinctions (P-Tr being only one of those). Not having chambers (or architecture), they'd be free to relocate to anywhere on the ocean floor, as long as it's far enough from a subduction zone. As primitive beings hyperevolved from Cambrian/Ediacaran biota, they'd be mostly soft-bodied, but possibly with a carapace made of rock and sediment (not unlike [[wp:Caddisfly#Underwater_structures|Caddisfly larvae]]). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::My notion, though I didn't spell it out, was that their sleep chambers were mobile and took measures to save their occupants. But yes, they could just be hibernating and occasionally waking up and moving. Seems unlikely they would last that long without some kind of artificial preservation, though, considering even the mountains are younger than they would be…. Unlike you, I never envisioned the Diluvians as being godlike in intellect, so I see no reason why they would have to be broadly successful at surviving millions of years in stasis. They may never have thought they'd have to wait that long to awaken. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::My notion, though I didn't spell it out, was that their sleep chambers were mobile and took measures to save their occupants. But yes, they could just be hibernating and occasionally waking up and moving. Seems unlikely they would last that long without some kind of artificial preservation, though, considering even the mountains are younger than they would be…. Unlike you, I never envisioned the Diluvians as being godlike in intellect, so I see no reason why they would have to be broadly successful at surviving millions of years in stasis. They may never have thought they'd have to wait that long to awaken. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::To be clearer on my mental image of the Daomen, I was thinking of something highly structured and differentiated that could have existed on land. Placing such a creature in the pre-Permian era would mean it would have to be something like a [[wp:Dinocephalia|dinocephalian]], the lost forebear of the dinosaurs. The main problems with that idea are the fact that reptiles of this era were more or less 100% quadrupedal, which means no "hands" freed up to do things like make tools, plus most of them had tiny craniums and so were likely unintelligent (some Moschops had [[wp:File:Tapinocephalidae_-_Moschops_capensis.JPG|huge craniums]] but were very much gravity-bound to stand on all four of their feet). However, the timing is right (middle-Permian) to explain the sudden disappearance of coal and other suspiciously-simultaneous events like the sudden rise in CO2 and the acidification of the oceans (read [[wp:Guadalupian|this short page]] for some intriguing detail on the time period where the dinocephalians had their sudden rise and fall in the fossil record). Maybe the "Daomen" were descendants of the earlier [[wp:Troodontidae|troodons]] which we haven't found fossils for because of the nature of their extinction and the survivors' move to the oceans. There's some [https://www.sciencefocus.com/nature/inside-the-mind-of-a-dinosaur-2 | ::::::::::::::To be clearer on my mental image of the Daomen, I was thinking of something highly structured and differentiated that could have existed on land. Placing such a creature in the pre-Permian era would mean it would have to be something like a [[wp:Dinocephalia|dinocephalian]], the lost forebear of the dinosaurs. The main problems with that idea are the fact that reptiles of this era were more or less 100% quadrupedal, which means no "hands" freed up to do things like make tools, plus most of them had tiny craniums and so were likely unintelligent (some Moschops had [[wp:File:Tapinocephalidae_-_Moschops_capensis.JPG|huge craniums]] but were very much gravity-bound to stand on all four of their feet). However, the timing is right (middle-Permian) to explain the sudden disappearance of coal and other suspiciously-simultaneous events like the sudden rise in CO2 and the acidification of the oceans (read [[wp:Guadalupian|this short page]] for some intriguing detail on the time period where the dinocephalians had their sudden rise and fall in the fossil record). Maybe the "Daomen" were descendants of the earlier [[wp:Troodontidae|troodons]] which we haven't found fossils for because of the nature of their extinction and the survivors' move to the oceans. There's some [https://www.sciencefocus.com/nature/inside-the-mind-of-a-dinosaur-2 very recent evidence] for the tyrannosaurs being a lot smarter than we realized, having large brains for their ilk. This would include the T. rex, but also the intriguingly human-sized [[wp:Timurlengia|Timurlengia]]. Note that these were bipedal reptiles, albeit with frustratingly short forelimbs. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:48, 9 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::If we're going to consider the ocean as the habitat and source of the Diluvians, then I think we should be looking seriously at the octopus, which has been around since [[wp:Octopus#Evolution|before the P-Tr boundary]]. The octopus is the most likely oceanic life to succeed us as Earth's dominant intelligent species, should anything happen to us, which is why I suggested at the end of [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Story#Daodan|this section]] of my Story page that the game should end with the Daodan being passed on (bequeathed, accidentally) to the octopus. I suppose we could invert that and ask, What if some type of (no doubt giant) octopus already preceded us as the dominant species, until something went wrong and they had to retreat into sleep chambers until it blew over? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:48, 9 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::If we're going to consider the ocean as the habitat and source of the Diluvians, then I think we should be looking seriously at the octopus, which has been around since [[wp:Octopus#Evolution|before the P-Tr boundary]]. The octopus is the most likely oceanic life to succeed us as Earth's dominant intelligent species, should anything happen to us, which is why I suggested at the end of [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Story#Daodan|this section]] of my Story page that the game should end with the Daodan being passed on (bequeathed, accidentally) to the octopus. I suppose we could invert that and ask, What if some type of (no doubt giant) octopus already preceded us as the dominant species, until something went wrong and they had to retreat into sleep chambers until it blew over? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:48, 9 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
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==Notes== | ==Notes== | ||
===Canon quotes=== | ===Canon quotes=== | ||
{{Reflist}} | |||
===geyser=== | ===geyser=== | ||
{{Reflist|group=geyser}} | |||
[[Category:Oni 2]] | [[Category:Oni 2]] | ||