Oni2:A Storyline/PostSummary2: Difference between revisions

| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=16#post_3164 here]

| geyser

| Introduces notion of META, a "technological mega-consortium run by the Syndicate++ state. It makes everything from weapons to vehicles to droids/SLDs/mechas/cyborgs(/Daodans?)". It's essentially the source of all technological innovation in the world. Questions how guido's notion of Konoko's motivation in blowing up the ACCs jives with the outro movie. Konoko had faith in the Daodan, almost blindly, thinking that it could be given to all the people. Perhaps this was additionally due to mental alienation caused by her Daodan Chrysalis. Agrees that giving everyone Chrysalises would practically lead to Armageddon, with Mutant Muros all over the place. Although perhaps that conflict is part of the "grand design", but that kind of climax couldn't happen until about halfway through Oni ''3''. But his explanation of Konoko's decision is that she wasn't "herself". Having to deal with that realization is what would lead to her trance and amnesia, as it wouldn't be possible to kill oneself as a Daodan host. But his version of the story does have this point in common with guido's, that she "dies" after Oni 1. The will of her human mind to remain human disrupts the Daodan's evolution and they both collapse into inactivity. The story of Oni 2 would be both Konoko regaining her mind, and the Daodan regaining its "mind", its programming to evolve its host. Whichever regains its strength first will win. If both regain strength and come into conflict again, the cycle will repeat (perhaps in Oni 3!). The solution might be learning to communicate with this "other mind". The other characters returning from Oni 1 might be able to help. Muro is an example of what happens when one gives in to the Daodan and loses one's own mind. But because Mai and Mukade are still resisting mentally, they can't achieve Imago. Agrees that we don't want to introduce a totally new villain with no connection to Oni 1's story. Wants to bring back Shinatama, who backed herself up (perhaps only partially) before being physically destroyed. Likes owldreamer's concept of Hikari being a resurrected Shinatama. But Shinatama 2 doesn't necessarily help Mai a lot, because at first she's scared of her, and also she doesn't know all the answers herself, pertaining to the Daodan and Mai's fate. Kerr did not survive Oni 1, but he could have left recordings with valuable information, perhaps anticipating some events in Oni 2 a la Hari Seldon [who predicts the future using mathematics in Asimov's "Foundation" novels]. Shinatama 2 might discover these recordings and selectively share them with Mai over time. Barabas could return, but in a non-notable role where he's hardly even recognizable -- just something for players of Oni 1 to catch. Repeats his doubts about the Hasegawa story: it was on a CD dropped by Mukade; he did all that research in just months [as mentioned in the summary of post #18, Hasegawa had up to 3 years]; and years later, at the time of Oni, there still isn't a "pending environmental crisis" [ [[Quotes/Consoles#BioCrisis|actually...]] ]. Thinks that Hasegawa was being tampered with in order to start the project and make such quick advancement (and this tampering may also involve Jamie's death); later on, he must have realized he was being influenced. He eventually implanted a Chrysalis in himself, before or after Muro, either to be able to understand what Muro would face, or to be able to watch over him if he doubted Muro's goodness, or to investigate the Daodan's mission himself. He knew to expect a battle of wills and was able to stay human, perhaps even achieving communication with his Chrysalis. Doesn't accept that Hasegawa and Kerr simply thought of the Daodan as a great cure for polluted air; they must have understood the deeper, darker implications. Perhaps Imagoes do consume themselves and Muro would have died soon after fighting Mai anyway. That would make the ones who resist full Imago, like Mai and Mukade, the strong ones. As long as they hold on to their humanity, they continue to get some of the benefits of the Daodan, but will remain vulnerable, unlike an Imago. That might be the only possibility for stability in a Daodan host. Perhaps the "grand design" behind the Daodan is actually to select these stronger-willed people, in order to face some danger or challenge. Only those "survivors" will be able to communicate with the beings guiding the Daodan; although that might be the subject of Oni 3.

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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=16#post_3172 here]

| geyser

| Suggests the message of Oni 2 be: "Our strength lies in our imperfection. So does our inner beauty. Imperfection is key. Imperfection is what provides a dynamic aspect to our existence. Imperfection is our true essence." Interprets Kerr's and Mukade's words to Konoko to mean that she should resist the transformation. The true expression of a weak-willed person's nature is to give in to the Daodan and become an Imago, but those who resist, like Konoko, are the ones who are "beautiful" and "strong" in their imperfection and weakness. Compares falling in love as an act of giving up oneself to Mai's need to hold onto herself; she is always <u>falling</u> in love, but never fallen. Perhaps Mai ends up fighting Hikari because she thinks Hikari's hiding something from her.

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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=16#post_3190 here]

| geyser

| Questions why Meta tech can't be refined and elegant. And what threats is Meta responding to? Perhaps they seem to be doing it for their own reasons, not in response to a known threat. Implies that Mukade is the head inventor. As the devices are the product of an unearthly intelligence, they should be "wrong" somehow, beyond normal human understanding. And the Metabike is something that a normal human would not be agile enough to use, plus you have no body protection as you speed along. "The disturbing thing about it (as it will be for most other Meta-stuff) is that it's simply not meant for human operators." Agrees that Meta tech should be rare, but they can also have multiple variations on the same device, and vary them randomly like Oni does with ONCC body sizes. Doesn't agree with guido's interpretation of the outro monologue, as Konoko still made the choice to blow up the ACCs; did she do that out of fear of the Daodan or out of hope in it? Reiterates point about cause of Mai's amnesia; if she'd known from the start what the Daodan was, the struggle with it wouldn't have been too bad, but she only realized when it was almost too late to retain her faculties. Perhaps she is trapped in her own mind by the Daodan, which would allow for levels like the movie "The Cube". The Daodan is trying to track her down in her own mind, kind of like Agent Smith and Neo in the Matrix. She has to become even fitter mentally in order to continue to resist the Daodan's increasingly smart attacks. With regards to fear, Mai needs to learn to not be afraid of the Daodan, in order to cope with it. She can learn from Mukade, who is more experienced. Together they can walk a path perpendicular to the one the Daodan wants to evolve in, and find a new way. Dislikes idea of Mai deciding to give in to Imago, as this means alienation for the player. How can we even write a story around an alien intelligence? "The whole purpose of the Daodan may be to face strong minds with the threat of disappearing completely, and maintain that threat in order to make the human mind achieve a greater knowledge and control of itself as well as of the Daodan entity, develop at a whole new level (telepathy etc) while retaining its very essence. Ultimately, the human mind gets so strong that its strength and that of the Daodan are perfectly matched, and it's some kind of peaceful coexistence then." Seven years is not long enough to let Griffin be dead without having to specify how he died [Cf. Oni's forked ending], and to let the Cataclysm's effects die down. If it's too soon after the Cataclysm, people will be more likely to simply lynch Konoko. Reiterates idea of Mai joining a Rebellion, which allows for lots of individuals with separate motivations. When it's revealed who Mai is, they each have to take a stand on what to do about her. Similar to Oni 1, Mai would start off as a "clueless pawn" and gradually realize the truth. Shinatama/Hikari may have trouble understanding the new Mai, making their new relationship more complex. Disagrees that the host or the Daodan has to win; "as in the case of war, there is then no victor to speak of. True victory means ceasefire, compromise, cooperation, peace." We can show that the human spirit is strong even if the flesh is weak. This can mean an interesting reversal of Oni 1, where Konoko as a host is being invaded by the Daodan; this time <u>she's</u> mentally invading the Daodan that has replaced her cells.

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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=19#post_3401 here]

| geyser

| Agrees that TCTF would no longer be around. Airport level could simply take place before curfew. If those masks are for filtering air, why would only high-level troops have them? And civilians don't seem to need them.... Doesn't think that Hasegawa's grief would allow him to overlook the dangers of the project. The skyboxes are just ugly and garish, that's the only reason for slight differences in color from reality. You aren't even allowed to see a whole sky in Oni's levels, because there's no sun. Reiterates that the engine was too limited to allow for more civilian activity. Suggests that explanations for Hasegawa's actions can be ambiguous; we can have multiple options. If Hikari can change her skin's color, can she wear a "chameleon" skin or some form of phase cloak?

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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=19#post_3410 here]

| geyser

| SLDs are made from organics too, although Hikari is a more mechanical kind of android. Prefers to stay away from topics like invisible walls in levels and other obvious limitations of the game technology. Re: adding more moving cars, Bungie couldn't even make the Warehouse truck's doors move with the truck. There are solar panels and civilians don't wear masks; that's as much as we need to know to understand that the air isn't heavily polluted, end of story. Hasegawa's connection to the Syndicate was probably not direct enough for Kerr to become aware of the danger. Kerr is rather submissive and naive, too, as seen in Oni, so he simply follows where Hasegawa leads. Questions how anyone knows what really happened to Jamie, as only witness was Hasegawa; why was he carrying a gun, anyway? Maybe that "virus" that was killing Jamie before Hasegawa shot her was just a cover story. Maybe the 'global poisoning' was a fabrication. Either Hasegawa was being manipulated, and really believed the things he wrote and really thought working under the Syndicate was a good idea, or else he had some ulterior motive. Maybe he expected the Syndicate to take over at some point. Maybe the goal was to use the Daodan as leverage to take over the organization. Either he planned to put his children in place at the head of the Syndicate, or else he became cautious because of the danger that Muro represented, and decided to allow him to (seemingly) lead the Syndicate, and use him as a tool. Perhaps Muro's plan to hold the world hostage with the ACCs was given to him by Hasegawa. However, Hasegawa actually engineered improvements to the ACCs that would reverse the damage in months or years. If any Syndicate scientists realized this, Hasegawa/Mukade's ninjas would take care of them. Muro wouldn't have found this out until it was too late, and then as the Syndicate collapsed, Hasegawa could simply have slipped into the shadows. This means that Konoko did everything wrong, incapacitating Mukade (dad) so he couldn't direct the final stages of the process, and blowing up the ACCs instead of allowing Hasegawa's plan to proceed. When Mukade confronted Konoko, he was curious to see if she was developing in a good way or bad, especially after seeing how Muro had turned out. After she took him out and caused things to get much worse, the opposite of what he had planned, he would naturally be resentful and/or afraid of her in Oni 2. Now he has no choice but to re-take control of the Syndicate to deal with the worsening situation, instead of ditching the Syndicate to flounder and die as he had planned. Acknowledges that this series of events makes the Daodan just a pawn in Hasegawa's master plan and may not be the desired direction we want for an Oni 2. But it does explain a lot of Oni's loose threads, doesn't it? It makes out Hasegawa to be brilliant after all, unless the Daodan has actually been controlling him all along.

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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=20#post_3553 here]

| geyser

| Is less interested in Bungie's "context" and more in how the story itself makes us feel and how it's open to interpretation. Where did these ideas go astray from what Oni is about? Points out all the similarities between the themes in Oni 2 and Oni 1: a nameless heroine without a past; a struggle between two communities, one of which adopts her (perhaps for their own purposes); the heroine developing superhuman abilities while discovering her identity; an obscure community of enemies; the heroine's community rejecting her out of fear of her powers; an enemy mastermind who is somehow connected to the heroine; "marginal people" who can help the heroine find her identity. But we shouldn't idolize the original story too much; the motivations and settings are rather derivative and simplistic. Why shouldn't we aim higher? Thinks that a new player will be able to come into this story without a learning curve from not knowing Oni 1, and returning players will recognize the themes well enough (authoritarian gov't, Mai being used as a weapon, etc.) that they can connect to it. As for Big, has purposely held off on elaborating on that character so fans wouldn't complain about geyser shoe-horning his own creation into the story; focusing first on elaborating on characters such as Mukade. Hikari isn't geyser's character, but if guido finds her inspiring, then is happy to have her around. In any case, we've only come up with a handful of new characters so far, so before we reject them, we need to give them time to see how they will interact with the established cast. Also, Hikari can be involved in revealing information to Mai about who/what she is (although Hikari is also afraid of her, which adds an interesting dynamic). Will start working on summarizing the thread using the aforementioned keyword index. Will also summarize his personal ideas on the wiki; others are welcome to contribute their own material. Art gallery for Guido is in progress; why hasn't anyone commented on his own art yet? Agrees that Oni 2 should start with multiplayer and basic gameplay elements. This thread is for planning out the story stuff that comes much later in the process.

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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=21#post_3651 here]

| geyser

| Likes it [whatever it is], but a sword in a bloodless game is questionable, "and maybe even the conventional gun". Links to some Tank Girl art for comparison. Complains about guido's art blog's restrictions. Thinks Hikari's com link is rather retro [he must be referring to [[:Image:GUIDO_Hikari_TCTF.jpg|this art]]].

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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=21#post_3654 here]

| guido

| The com link shouldn't be necessary at all for an android; perhaps it's part of a desire on Hikari's part to appear human, or relate to humans.

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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=21#post_3658 here]

| geyser

| That com link certainly won't help her to blend in on the streets. Unless she's trying to infiltrate Phoenix, but they all know each other, so that wouldn't be effective anyway. Thinks Guido should get an oni2.net account.

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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=22#post_3881 here]

| geyser

| Critiques Guido's art, discusses his plans for his own art. Griffin's relative needn't be female. Pandora will be, and Hikari; sees interesting parallel to the Daodan process in the idea of continually upgrading Hikari. The "old man" and Meta leaders will be male. Wants to bring back Muro as well, not in the flesh, but in Mai's mind. He haunts her because of their relationship in Oni 1, perhaps confronting her, or challenging her philosophically. Since he's not real, he only knows what Mai (or the Daodan) knows. Perhaps his image is actually being used by the Daodan to communicate with Mai. He also may serve as a teacher for Mai in a training environment; since he's not real, his abilities can increase over time, to a fantastical degree, to prepare her for upcoming challenges. He can also represent, as Guido pointed out, what Mai could still become, if she follows the wrong path. So his presence in her head can paint a picture of the struggle that Mai faces, and the balance between human and the inhuman inside her. Mai can become quite familiar with this mental Muro, whereas Mukade will remain distant. This allows for ambiguity about who he really is. Although he may also serve as a sensei to Mai, he doesn't know the whole picture; he has to learn from Mai, as well. (An alternate approach: What if Mukade was the one who introduced the Daodan to Hasegawa?). Mukade may not identify anymore with who he used to be, leading to enigmatic conversations with Mai that only slowly reveal the truth. Why is Mukade using a rifle in that art? He was already able to teleport and fire energy balls in Oni 1; imagine what he can do after his near-death experience makes him even stronger. Re: Blame!, questions how dark Oni 2 should be. Wants variety in tone, not a dark monotony like Max Payne. Doesn't like Guido's weaker version of Meta. It leaves out Mukade's struggles as leader of the world. And who rules the world then? Doesn't see a place for conventional corporations in the world of Oni 2, just Meta and the rebellion. Groups like the TCTF would be absorbed into those two sides. Names from Oni 1 like "TCTF" and "Syndicate" would now be obsolete. A new third party is fine, but Meta needs to be the centralized gov't in control. "No politics. No corporations. The state is the law. The state is the industry." Mentions web site made by war gamers which has interesting weapon concepts.

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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=23#post_3964 here]

| geyser

| Mr. Big was his idea, "as an archetype of brute force combined with a mix of cunning situation assessment and (possibly faked) good-heartedness". He's a rogue element in the plot, not tied to one faction. Initially he brings Mai into Phoenix and supports her on her first missions while the player is learning the ropes. Big also owns a warehouse-turned-night club. It would be hard to have Mai betray Big in a game where you play as Mai; you'd have to take away control from the player, possibly disillusioning them. Perhaps some TCTF gear remains from the old days; it may even serve as a trigger for Mai's memory; perhaps Hikari even wears it for that purpose. "Does Big take Mai as a rival, a friend, a sister... or a collector's item?"

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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=26#post_4241 here]

| geyser

| Agrees with Guido. Wiki makes a better place for a showcase than a "limited access" page on Oni Central. Points to Quotes page that he has created on wiki. Having read all the quotes anew, issues some quasi-retractions on the subjects of whether the increasing pollution was just in Hasegawa's imagination, whether Muro's plan was legitimate, and whether Mai's decision was logical. Questions whether Oni really takes place in 2032 since there are conflicting dates. Game mentions Freedom Riots of 2012 but manual says WCG wasn't formed until after January 2032 [is this necessarily a conflict?]. Reviews main ideas generated to date. Pandora and her optimism for the Daodan vs. Mai's skepticism. The alienation caused by the Daodan and whether there is a grand design behind it, and whether it can be communicated with. The Daodan process, and Meta's rule, try to make things perfect, but the message of Oni 2 will be wabi-sabi-esque: that our beauty and strength lie in our imperfection. Outlines interaction between Mai and Hikari, who is the embodiment of the resurrected Shinatama. "Hacker boy" who works for Hikari may become torn between a distant AI that gives him orders and his "enemy" Mai, who is still partially human. Perhaps Dr. Edward(s) is hacker boy's granddad. "Collective storytelling has its problems [but] having story elements, and especially points of view and interpretations contributed by many individuals is a definite plus". Pluralistic storytelling is "much closer" to how animé and good sci-fi tells stories, leaving some things for the audience to think about. A sophisticated game could even allow Mai to die, and have the player continue with another character such as Hikari or Pandora or Big. That may be over-ambitious for a video game, but maybe a gamebook is a better idea. Points to gamebook on another wiki which is about Oni and has Guido listed as artist: "What the hell is this?" [this was a [[wikipedia:D20 System|d20]] gamebook worked on by several people we don't know, plus Guido; it didn't seem to be active for very long, and then it was deleted by admins because Wikibooks is not for original material; [http://web.archive.org/web/20050807011518/http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Oni_d20 here's a peek] at what it looked like].

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