AE talk:Combat system

This is not really a question, but I think this statement about the new package is a bit confusing...

• Directional kicks, running kicks, jumping kicks now cause mild stagger
• Directional punches and running punches now cause knockdown for all classes

Why does it make sense that a running kick is less powerful (stagger) than a running punch (knockdown)?

Is the first statement about blocked kicks and the second about unblocked punches, or something else?

Generally, whenever you say "now", it's a good idea to remind people of what things were like "before".

I fail to see a difference with Konoko's running kicks, for example. What exactly changed about them?

geyser 15:39, 9 September 2008 (CEST)

Thank you for noticing this page. I should learn to write. By those statements is meant:

Directional kicks, running kicks, jumping kicks now cause mild stagger -

These kicks are now blockable only in "standing" stance. If you crouch and they miss completely, good for you. If they connect, you get hit.

These kicks now cause mild stagger if you guard them (usually 20-30 frames, originally they caused simple 8 frames block)

These kicks still knockdown you if you are hit by them or (Comguy, Fury) cause heavy stagger (40 - 45 frames)

Why? Just to uplift them. Now you can argue with me (and win, of course) but I have friend who is not playing Oni but he plays games from time to time. I let him play vanilla Oni. Punch spamming, throw spamming. Forgot about kicks the moment he tried them a few times (exception were front running kick and front standing kick). Why? Slower, not giving him enough time if opponent blocks. And they had "no advantages" as he said when I asked him why he is not using them.

Then, I let him play AE. It was clearly visible that his usual spamming now works less then before. It does not mean he was killed by nearest come-n'go enemy. It means he had problems with him as my friend does not use evasion moves. It goes like this: "Evading? Time wasting. Let's throw'em! WHAT? I got kicked to the ground? OK, EAT THIS!!!" *Forward + left mouse spam*. Enemy killed in the end. My friend had 1/4 of his HP away. 20 other enemies are waiting for him later in level ^_^. Then, I played. A few rolls, some average-placed kicks, finished with 2x punch combo in the end. Enemy hit me once (threw me).

That was my goal. More technical gameplay (like "big fighting games", Tekken/DOA/Virtua fighter), less spamming. I 80% suceeded. At least I think so.

Tirade = 1 (put # in front and ignore if not interested)

Now you can say "OK, so why was Konoko's front kick penalized? Why it is now blocked so swiftly (4 frames block animation)? It is not real!" Answer is: it is lightning fast kick, easy to spam. I had to weaken it in order to prevent "mindless spamming". That is deal of game: if you want to make it entertaining, you have to do some thing differently from real world.

Now you again: "Then, if we are doing things "differently from real world", why you want to make fights "more realistic?" It is contradicting! Plus, you are talking about "weakening overpowered moves" but Mutant Muro is now tremdeously powerful, capable of hitting you multiple times with one animation!" Well, here my little tirade ends. Simply because I want tom make Oni fun to play. Spamming is no fun. And no, proclamation "so don't spam" is NOT solution. I want to be able to use everything as well as I want AI2 to use everything. Then it is fun.

If Mutant Muro is exceptional boss, 2x bigger than you and with super shield, then he can have more powerful attacks. I tried and defeated him, no big job. Only difference is that now you cannot rush and spam and retreat and rush and spam.... so easily. Well, you have to do it this way aganist such a boss. But against vanilla Mutant Muro it is easy the moment you are a bit skilled + you saved shield to prevent HP loss if he does PAR3 powered attack and you get caught.

Aganist AE Mutant Muro it is harder. you WILL do it same way, but first time he catches you with his attack you realize this is serious. And once again-I defeated him, no big job. You only have to be more careful.

Tirade = 0

Directional punches and running punches now cause knockdown for all classes

Directional punches can be blocked in any stance

If they are not guarded, directional punches now cause knockdown (or medium stagger in some cases)

If guarded, these punches now do 10 frames block instead of 8 frames. Better chance for you to run away if you were not sucessful with directional punch and you face threat of being back thrown. But still not enough time to spam these, I think.

REASON: Original directional punches are usually useless. Sorry if it sounds too definite, but if we count out punch forward (part of everyday attack arsenal), then left/right/back punches were seriously underpowered. For example, Ninja's directional punches caused only hurt anim if they hit enemy (no stagger/knockdown). Practical joke. So enemy eats 10 points damage from side punch, then he swiftly finishes his back positioning and backthrows you for minimal 30 damage (I count out SWAT's broken non-damaging back throw). Or he waits for you to attack, block it and THEN he does it. I apologize, but that is useless.

Similar with running punches of some classes (Konoko for example). You run into opponent, strike him. He plays simple hit animation from your full body powered impact, then he PWNS you hard. If you feel weird about this sentence, read Tirade first, then react, please.

Overall, it is a bit better now. Of course you can spam punches. But kicks have now their advantages as well. And still, 10 frames from blocked punch is not much (kick do usually 20+ staggers now) but still you have better chance to escape back throw. Especially aganist more skilled classes (and aganist AE opponents ^_^'). Of course wait now-backthrow later still works. But even +2 frames into block gives you sometimes chance to get away. And AI2 can use it, too.

Finally: "I fail to see a difference with Konoko's running kicks, for example. What exactly changed about them."

VIDEO. First is vanilla ONI, second is AE combat system.

vanilla: enemy can counterattack your directional kick almost immediately.

AE: Enemy staggers a bit from impact. Nothing big, but still you have chance to get away or try to continue combo. But as you can see, enemy still has upper hand as he finishes his stagger (and can attack) way before I land from my side kick. Which is good. (maybe not realistic but prevents spamming)

I hope I answered all of your questions. Feel free to react. --Loser 21:36, 9 September 2008 (CEST)

I still haven't tried your system out, but from the sound of it, I like your changes, Loser. By the way, have you changed Barabus' moves at all? I experienced some amazing and wicked behavior from him in my last fight with him that made him much harder. Maybe it was just a fluke (I can post video if you want). --Iritscen 02:53, 10 September 2008 (CEST)