User talk:Ssg: Difference between revisions

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==Oni Stuff==
test
:ssg, I ''beg'' you to synchronize OBD pages as you see fit (as long as you don't use RAW HTML, I suppose it's OK ^^)
:At least the pages for which you've changed the image on OS. And those for which you've documented not-yet-synced data.
:Of course, read through whatever you'll be overwriting, and merge anything you deem relevant into your update.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:36, 21 April 2007 (CEST)
 
 
----
==Shadow thingie==
http://www6.fh-eberswalde.de/user/dkriesch/oni/l1_6813_6836.jpg
http://www6.fh-eberswalde.de/user/dkriesch/oni/l1_this.jpg
http://www6.fh-eberswalde.de/user/dkriesch/oni/l10_1215.jpg
:
:
#AGQG id: [http://www6.fh-eberswalde.de/user/dkriesch/oni/crate.txt 6813-6836]
<!--### top table ###-->
#Shows where that box is. It's in level 1 at the beginning after the first door you have to unlock with the first console.
{| border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"
#Level 10, across from Shinatama; AGQG id: 1215
| rowspan="2" | http://14mb.de/u/ccc/top_left.gif || width="98%" bgcolor="#000000" | http://14mb.de/u/ccc/10x1.gif || rowspan="2" | http://14mb.de/u/ccc/topright.gif
:
|-
Any idea where the shadow thing is stored? It's not in the AGQG files and not in the TXMP files.
| bgcolor="#e9e9e9" | <TT>Hex Image - First 64 Bytes</TT>
:;ssg
|}
:Basically, it's just the effect of the round shadow texture being projected vertically onto sloped floor quads.
<!--### image table ###-->
::In pic 3, the wall is actually not vertical: it's as if Konoko was standing at the bottom of a very steep ramp.
{| border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="border: 1px solid black"
:Same for those crates: the walls are not vertical, so the shadow casts on them as if they were floors.
| bgcolor="#f9f9f9" | [[Image:agdb_a.gif]]
::So those shadows are nothing special, and are not stored anywhere. All that stuff is handled dynamically.
|}
:In order to better see what happens to the shadow quad(s) during those distorsions, try the wireframe mode.
<!--### bottom table ###-->
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:36, 21 April 2007 (CEST)
{| border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"
:
| rowspan="2" | http://14mb.de/u/ccc/bot_left.gif || width="98%" bgcolor="#e9e9e9" | http://14mb.de/u/ccc/1x10.gif || rowspan="2" | http://14mb.de/u/ccc/botright.gif
Aaaaaahhhhh... thanks. Sloping walls... Why don't I recognize such things? *headdesk*
|-
:
| bgcolor="#000000" | http://14mb.de/u/ccc/10x1.gif
[[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 09:52, 23 April 2007 (CEST)
|}


----


==OTA hacking==
<!--### top table ###-->
func RespawnPlayer(int ai_id, string ai_team, string ai_name) {
{| border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"
    RandFlag
| rowspan="2" | http://14mb.de/u/ccc/top_left.gif || width="98%" bgcolor="#000000" | http://14mb.de/u/ccc/10x1.gif || rowspan="2" | http://14mb.de/u/ccc/topright.gif
    if(selection eq 1) RandWeapon
|-
    chr_teleport(ai_name, rand_flag_id)
| bgcolor="#e9e9e9" | <TT>Hex Image Description</TT>
    chr_inv_reset(ai_name)
|}
    if(selection eq 1){
<!--### main table ###-->
        chr_giveweapon(ai_name, rand_weapon_name)
{| border="0" width="100%" bgcolor="#ff0000" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" style="background-color: #000000"
        chr_givepowerup(ai_name, cell, rand_cell)
|- bgcolor="#d9d9d9" align="center"
        chr_givepowerup(ai_name, ammo, rand_ammo)
| width="7%" | '''Offset''' || width="7%" | '''Type''' || width="10%" | '''Raw Hex''' || width="10%" | '''Value''' || width="66%" |  '''Description'''
    }
|- bgcolor="#f9f9f9" align="center" valign="top"
    if(RandShield()) chr_givepowerup(ai_name, shield)
| 0x00 || file id || bgcolor="#ff0000" | 01 4C 02 00 || 588 || align="left" | 00588-.AGDB
    if(RandInvis()) chr_givepowerup(ai_name, invis)
|- bgcolor="#f9f9f9" align="center" valign="top"
    chr_full_health(ai_name)
| 0x04 || level id || bgcolor="#ffff00" | 01 00 00 06 || 3 || align="left" | level 3
|- bgcolor="#f9f9f9" align="center" valign="top"
    if(ai_team eq Konoko) fork FullyAware(ai_name, Syndicate)
| 0x08 || nowrap | unused (20) || bgcolor="#00ff00" | AD DE || dead || align="left" | not used
    if(ai_team eq Syndicate) fork FullyAware(ai_name, Konoko)
|- bgcolor="#f9f9f9" align="center" valign="top"
| 0x1C || long || bgcolor="#00ffff" | 15 8A 00 00 || 35349 || align="left" | 35349 packages follow (the first package is edged in black)
    chr_wait_health(ai_name, 1)
|- bgcolor="#737373" align="center"
    if(ai_name eq Tower_MB_1 and selection2 eq 0) chr_set_health(ai_name, 0)
| colspan="5" style="color: #f9f9f9" | The cells below show the first package.
    chr_pain(ai_name, "death")
|- bgcolor="#f9f9f9" align="center" valign="top"
    fork Death(ai_team)
| 0x20 || raw link || bgcolor="#ffc8c8" | 80 B6 46 00 || 46 B6 80 || align="left" | at this position starts the "old file name 1" part in the raw file
|- bgcolor="#f9f9f9" align="center" valign="top"
    if(ai_name eq Tower_MB_1 and selection2 eq 0) {sleep 200; ai2_spawn(ai_name, force);}
| 0x40 || raw link || bgcolor="#ffffc8" nowrap | A0 B6 46 00 || nowrap | 46 B6 A0 || align="left" | at this position starts the "old file name 2" part in the raw file
    chr_inv_reset(ai_name)
    chr_givepowerup(ai_name, invis, 300)
    chr_changeteam(ai_name, Switzerland)
    if(chr_is_player(ai_name)) p3_removedangerous
    sleep 50
    chr_wait_animstate(ai_name, standing)
    chr_changeteam(ai_name, ai_team)
    fork RespawnPlayer(ai_id, ai_team, ai_name)
}
:Oni ignores the '''chr_teleport(ai_name, rand_flag_id)''' irregular for the respawned mad bomber.
::Anyone who has an idea why Oni ignores it? And why irregular?
:::(Even if I write the teleport command twice with sleep 200 between them, it doesn't work.)
::;ssg
:Why hack the old core? There were lots of things wrong with it...
:
==> Well, it works fine for me. Except the mad bomber teleport. [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 09:56, 23 April 2007 (CEST)
:
::Why don't you port [http://geyser.oni2.net/OniTeamArena/WIP/ABPbis.zip this] instead? ^^
:
==> I'll have  a look... [[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 09:56, 23 April 2007 (CEST)
:
:By "irregular" I assume you mean "sometimes"... Well, in OTA 2, he respawns nicely.
::And the previous core is such a mess, it's really hard to say without trimming it.
:(yeah, generally, comment out everything that isn't essential for investigation)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:36, 21 April 2007 (CEST)
:Plus the mad bommber goes passive after some successful respawns.
::I can punch and kick him and nothing happens. He ignores me.
:*strange*
::;ssg
:I haven't figured out why that happens yet. Usually happens when there are many bots.
:Could be that there's only that much melee that can be run at a time (sixteen?).
:Anyway, you have 18 chars in there, and that's a lot. Not debug-friendly, anyway.
:I can't actiavely help right now. Try playing with dev console on, with fewer chars.
:I'd say you're almost guaranteed to get an error message corresponding to both problems.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:36, 21 April 2007 (CEST)
 
 
----
 
==Linking to [[BSL]] files==
:[http://www6.fh-eberswalde.de/user/dkriesch/oni/arena_lab.txt complete file] rename the txt extension to bsl. Wiki don't want bsl extensions.
::;ssg
:The wiki normally supports linking to anything ASCII. See [[IGMD]] and subpages. The problem, if any, is with your browser.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:36, 21 April 2007 (CEST)
 
<!--  
### Text below disabled ###
:ssg, ''please'' don't update ''all'' the OBD pages
:to the format you chose. Allow for a "trial period".
:Choose a few representative file types and do ''them''.
:Also, we have to agree of how we call the data types
::(could you give me a list of those, e.g., [[OBD:Data|HERE]]?)
:Again, I ask you, ''please'' don't update everything at once.
:You can edit individual articles whenever you like,
::but something as systematic as a namespace-wide format change
:::have to be ground out a bit before it's applied at large scale.
:If anything, you're flooding "Recent changes"
::while we have our first spam to take care of.
:::(and you don't log in, naughty naughty).
:Please hear me. And "be patient".
::[[User:134.157.8.115|134.157.8.115]] 17:24, 24 November 2006 (CET)
 
 
:Only the most recent entries are visible
::(older ones have been commented out).
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:I have a few complaints about the image files you just uploaded :
:*Their names are not capitalized properly (i.e., in consistence with the OBD file types);
:*There's no specific information on the file the data belongs to;
:*They can't be easily renamed or reorganized (e.g., split) : a "feature" of image pages;
:*Those images are not supposed to be thumbnailed : they'll be included in one page and that's all.
:I'd say there are other ways to ''actually'' improve OBD right now :
:*updating information : half of the "unknown" fields are actually known by now;
:*homogenizing the format (using the special "OBD" header/footer/table templates).
:If you want to upload images on oni2.net, I suggest you do it on ssg.oni2.net
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:01, 31 October 2006 (CET)
:And you flooded the Recent Changes, too ^^
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:03, 31 October 2006 (CET)
----
*Normally they aren't capitalized. Wiki did that. (Who cares about that? Is this important?)
*I know it.
*First: Please don't rename them. Second: You can overwrite it f.e. with the first part of a splitted image and add the the other splitted parts as seperate images.
*Normally they aren't thumbnailed. Wiki did that.
:-
*Be patient.
*I've saved the header and footer templates already. (Where are table templates?)
*No one can alter images on ssg.oni2.net, except the admin and me, so I'd like to upload them to the wiki.
:-
*I'm sorry ;-)
:
:'''Edit:''' To your ONCP example:
*I won't add offsets. (Why does the offset of the package starts with 0x00?)
*I don't like the double border around the table.
*I won't split the table/images for such small images.
*I'll kick out the "overview @ Onistuff" and the "struct def for OUP"
{|width=100%
|align=right|ssg, 17:58, 1. November 2006 (CET)
|}
|}
----
<!--### bottom table ###-->
notes:
{| border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"
*The inline table borders look only good with Firefox. Have to fix that.
| rowspan="2" | http://14mb.de/u/ccc/bot_left.gif || width="98%" bgcolor="#e9e9e9" | http://14mb.de/u/ccc/1x10.gif || rowspan="2" | http://14mb.de/u/ccc/botright.gif
*The brown table cell background colour doesn't fit to the white wiki background. Will look for some alternatives.
|-
*Wiki does not thumbnail images if you use them in an article (tested with OBD:CRSA).
| bgcolor="#000000" | http://14mb.de/u/ccc/10x1.gif
*Will update some more pages the next days/weeks. The ONGS file was only a check, if my offline html2wiki translator works fine.
:
{|width=100%
|align=right|[[User:80.78.168.2|80.78.168.2]] 19:45, 9 November 2006 (CET)
|}
|}
----
Hm, things went faster than I thought. Some of your concerns/"threats" I didn't address [[Current events|HERE]].
I'm glad you didn't actually "kick out" the "overview @ Onistuff" and the "struct def for OUP"... ^^
But I ''really'' wish you held your horses with the wiki-based image business : as in "do we need this"?
That said, I'm positively impressed by your dedication and active contribution. Happy, even ^^
;Editing
:Please log in unless you absolutely can't do so. You're gonna make me learn your IP by heart... ^^
;Tables
:The "File" in "OBD File Header" (or "... Footer") was for disambiguation from
::"OBD BINA Header", "OBD OBJC Header", "OBD OSBD Header" and maybe others...
:Since your table will be used for generic binary chunks, regardless of where they belongs to,
::I'd call your new template "OBD Table", as suggested earlier.
;Tables too
:If you ask me, there's nothing ''very'' wrong with a light brown (gold) background.
::Or with a white one, for that matter. Matches the default skin just fine. ^^
:::Anyway, I'm colorblind, so I'll let you handle those matters as you see fit.
:An "End" column is not needed. I'm not sure I'd call the first column "Start", but it's OK.
:I also don't like "Translation" and "Meaning" at all, but it's also cosmetic.
:As for the "Bytes", I think I'd replace it with a ''type'' when applicable
::(long, short, float, level ID, file ID, RAW/SEP address)
:::(maybe with a distinction between different DAT-link and RAW-link types, OBD-style)
::::(ideally, informative tables should replicate fully functional struct-defs and vice-versa)
::Actually, I wouldn't integrate the column headers (or their sizes) into the template at all.
:::Because in specific cases, you may want to organize the data somewhat differently
::::(e.g. [[OBD:BINA|HERE]] or [[OBD:TRAM/raw0x34|HERE]] or [[OBD:ONCC#0x15C_-_0x293|HERE]]) (it's messy, but you get the idea)
:The 100% width can be cancelled out by embedding the "OBD File Table" in another set of table tags
::Custom alignment of small tables can be handled there, too.
:::Headers and column sizes can't be overridden that way, though.
:I think a good compromise would be to split the "OBD File Table" in two :
:*the first half including the table tags (fancy backgeound color, 100%, etc). We'd call it "Fancy Table" because it has nothing to do with OBD.
:*the second half would be the header row, with its own fancy color, the column header names and their sizes. We'd call "Fancy OBD Header"
:Additionally, we can have a third template that just creates a row of "header" color, but doesn't specify column names and sizes. We'd call it "Fancy Header"
:By combining "Fancy Table" with either "Fancy OBD Header" or "Fancy Header", you'll be able to get :
:*the "predefined" format for documenting generic chunks of binary data
:*or a more "loose" (not OBD-specific) format where you'll be able to set up custom columns
:You can even use several "Fancy Header"s per table if you so wish
:We may also have such a "fancy row" template for the "Below follows the first package" (which is a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleonasm#Semantic_pleonasm semantic pleonasm] BTW), probably with custom text.
;Images:
:Thumbnailing : I ''know'' images don't get thumbnailed by default (duh)
::The appearance on the article page will be ''exactly'' the same as with a URL
::And that's exactly my problem : ''no one'' will ''ever'' want to thumbnail them
::(or right-align them, or resize them, or do any fancy wiki-image stuff with them)
::The only advantages are then :
::*a shorter location to type
:::(but it's not like you type those links in often)
::::(the image is featured on a single page and that's all)
::*the ability for dedicated users to provide alternative snapshots
:::(but they can do it just fine by linking to remote images)
::::(or, better, to images stored on their oni2.net accounts)
::*the permanent presence of the image at that location and on oni2.net
:::(again, the more dedicated people get an account on oni2.net, the better)
::::(in your case, is there a good reason for not mirroring stuff on ssg.oni2.net?)
:::::(if not for the whole site, at least the images...)
::The inability to rename the images, and the lousy short-term flexibility (e.g., splitting/merging snapshots)
:::are IMO ''major drawbacks'' of wiki-based images as compared to external URLs.
::::(in this specific case) (and so I'd really ask you to think it over again)
:Another "problem" (if you insist on having the images wiki-based) is with the format and filenames :
::Make it PNG rather than GIF
::Capitalize the names according to the names of the actual files
;Images Too
:Whatever your "OBD Image" template is supposed to do, it's probably a bad idea. ^^
:Don't center images, or embed them in a table spanning the whole page.
:Please don't. Or at least say what's wrong with plain old left-aligned images
::(external ones ^^ )
:More generally, always think in terms of "what was wrong with the old stuff?"
;Images Again
:Actually, it may sound crazy, but I feel like taking [[Test#OBD file types|THIS]] experiment a bit further.
:Basically, I'd set up a "table row" template where you'd type the color, colspan and content of the fields.
:It may look like taking the "editability" of the images to the absurd, though
::Then again, they're not really images : there's nothing there but colors and text...
;Content
:You told me to "be patient". And fancyfying headers and tables is all very nice.
::(BTW, we didn't mention [[Template:OBD TXT]] and [[Template:OBD TXT dec]])
:::(they're a bit specific to Oni Stuff, so maybe we should call them something else)
:But I'd still appreciate if crucial files like [[OBD:AGQG|AGQG]] were kept in sync with Oni Stuff...
::I have a few pending contributions, but they'd have to do with generic stuff like [[OBD:IDXA|IDXA]].
:I do understand that you words about html2wiki may reflect that kind of synchronization.
::So sorry if I sound like I'm rushing you again, but content sorta prevails for me. ^^
[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:49, 15 November 2006 (CET)
:Thanks for keeping it short. :p
::ssg
:Thank ''you'' for cooperating
:(e.g., for taking the time to reply)
:I try to keep things organized, hope you like it.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:It's best if all talk page comments are signed,
:in case someone else wonders what's going on...
:... and "who's who"
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:Bold-faced lines are best achieved with the "definition" markup (leading ";")
;like this
:(the only limitation is that you can't use ":" normally)
:(and you have to be careful when indenting, too)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:I'd also recommend the use of hlines to break up not-too-related content
:(e.g., on the ABNA page, what was wrong with the hlines before the footer?)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:I also don't like "Translation" and "Meaning" at all [...]
::;geyser
:You can change it if you want. Only one template to alter.
::;ssg
:I will, thank you. ^^ But since the world's in motion...
:(I mean, templates will be split, renamed, etc...
::Any column names will do for now)
:(even "shpadoinkle" or "kalamazoo") (sorry ^^ )
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:As for the "Bytes", I think I'd replace it with a type when applicable
::;geyser
:Well, the type is stored indirectly in the "translation" column. So I'd prefer "bytes".
::;ssg
:Illustrative examples are OK (I wouldn't say your examples are always very illustrative)
:But ''I'' would prefer to provide the actual information in a way that isn't tied to the example used
:(same as in a struct def, ideally)
:So "type" for me, definitely. The names "short", "long", "float", "char" ring an immediate bell,
:whereas looking at the "bytes" column, then at the "translation", then back...
:(I'm willing to give in to Delphi folks and capitalize those types : Short, Char, etc)
:(Also, I don't mind about String[X] rather than char[X] for strings of size X)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:As for Oni's internal types : I'd "define" extra types for file-ids and raw-addresses.
:Same as the OUP types and extensions. We've talked about that with Alloc, basically we need :
:*1 type for a DAT's ID, and another one for its level-ID
:*98 more types for DAT-links (ignoring the 16 defunct filetypes)
:*21 more types for RAW/SEP-links
::(1 for BINA, AKVA, OSBD, SNDD SUBT and TXMP; 2 for AGDB; 13 for TRAM)
:Tell me about any other types that come to your mind : we should "define" them too.
::(yes, I think we ''really'' need that, otherwise the info will be incomplete)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:I think the "long-with-high-bit" occurring, e.g., in the [[OBD:IDXA|IDXA]],
::is best viewed as two shorts... "Bitsets" are best viewed as chars.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:If the table row is a template (cf. "good idea" below),
:the name of a type could be a hyperlink to its "definition"
::(common page + anchor in that page).
:It's quite easy to set up, really.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:I think a good compromise would be to split the "OBD File Table" in two
::;geyser
:Yes, that's a good idea. I'd suggest to take
<nowiki>{| WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=2 STYLE="border-style:solid; border-width:1px; border-collapse:collapse; empty-cells:show; background:#F9F9F9;"</nowiki>
<nowiki>|- ALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR="#E9E9E9"</nowiki>
:as a basic "prettytable"-like template. Maybe we should call the template "wikitable" or something like that.
::;ssg
:You misunderstood me as for the splitting.
:I meant to have nothing but that first line in the basic template : no header row.
:Some of your flags seem redundant to me, but I might be wrong. More, later.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:Actually, there are lots of table templates on Wikipedia and elsewhere.
:Not that we should pick from them (yours is fine), but of course we can ^^
:Since it's a very plain-looking table, I'd call the template {{Table}}. Or {{TableHeader}}
::("...Header" to reflect that it's not a full set of table tags, just the opening)
:I'd call it {{GrayTable}}... if we weren't so likely to change the wiki's bg color... :P
:And I'd have it look like this (with flexibility in mind) :
<nowiki>{|BORDER=1 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=2 STYLE="border-style:solid; border-collapse:collapse; empty-cells:show; background:#F9F9F9;" WIDTH={{{1|100%}}} ALIGN={{{2|center}}}</nowiki>
:Tell me what you think.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:Choose a ''good'' name. (Please don't use words like "fancy". It confuses more than it explains.)
::;ssg
:I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, but the "fancification" was a joke.
:Not a ''good'' one, maybe, but a joke nonetheless ^^
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:"Fancy" is ''not'' confusing, though.
:I think it unambiguously and accurately reflects the spirit of your endeavour :
::custom in a nice-looking way, somewhat stylish. No offence meant, of course.
:We'll choose a ''good'' name. Heck, I'll let ''you'' choose it. Be my guest.
:(I can always rename the template around as long as it's not widely used :P )
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:The
<nowiki>! WIDTH=5% | Start || WIDTH=5% | Bytes || WIDTH=10% | Hex || WIDTH=10% | Translation || WIDTH=70% | Meaning</nowiki>
:I'd put in a template called f.e. "OBD_Table_Title_Row".
:(Same here. Choose a ''good'' name.)
::;ssg
:I'd make it :
<nowiki>|- BGCOLOR="#E9E9E9"</nowiki>
<nowiki>! WIDTH=5% | Offset || WIDTH=5% | Type || WIDTH=10% | Raw Hex || WIDTH=10% | Value || WIDTH=70% | Description</nowiki>
:And I'll let you choose the name, again
:({{OBD Table Header}} is fine by me)
:(maybe a bit confusing if we use "...Header" for the basic one)
:(yup, the basic one should be just {{Table}}, definitely)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:On second thought, those wide tables will only be ''the most common'' OBD tables.
::but by no means the only ones used to document Oni's binary data.
:Dunno what objective would suit them. We want something short enough to type.
:Since these tables will converge with OUP's Struct Defs eventually,
::(e.g., the info in the "Meaning" column should be as light as in a struct def)
:maybe either {{OBD Struct Header}} or {{OBD Struct Def Header}} is best.
:Or {{OBDstructHeader}}
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 12:52, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:Oh, and then of course we'd have another template called, say, {{OBD Struct Row}}
::(or {{OBDstructRow}})
:::that would go like this :
<nowiki>|- ALIGN=center</nowiki>
<nowiki>|{{{1|Offset?}}}</nowiki>
<nowiki>|[[OBD:Data#{{{2|Data types}}}|{{{2|Type?}}}]]</nowiki>
<nowiki>|BGCOLOR="#{{{3|F9F9F9}}}" style="white-space:nowrap"|{{{4|Raw hex?}}}</nowiki>
<nowiki>|style="white-space:nowrap"|{{{5|Value?}}}</nowiki>
<nowiki>|ALIGN=left|{{{6|Description?}}}</nowiki>
:Another one for strings, say, {{OBD Struct Row 2}} or {{OBDstructRow2}} :
<nowiki>|- ALIGN=center</nowiki>
<nowiki>|{{{1|Offset?}}}</nowiki>
<nowiki>|[[OBD:Data#{{{2|Data types}}}|{{{2|Type?}}}]]</nowiki>
<nowiki>|BGCOLOR="#{{{3|F9F9F9}}}" COLSPAN=2 style="white-space:nowrap"|{{{4|String?}}}</nowiki>
<nowiki>|ALIGN=left|{{{5|Description?}}}</nowiki>
:Finally, an extra one for the "Below follows" thing, say, {{OBD Struct Row 0}} or {{OBDstructRow0}}:
<nowiki>|- ALIGN=center BGCOLOR="#000000"</nowiki>
<nowiki>|COLSPAN=5|<FONT SIZE=2 COLOR="#FFFFFF">{{{1|Text?}}}<FONT></nowiki>
:And that would be enough to get us started.
:Tell me if I forgot anything.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 12:52, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:[...] which is a semantic pleonasm BTW
::;geyser
:But if I write "Below follows the second package" (because, f.e. the pic shows the second package),
:instead of "Below follows the first package", and it is the first package in the table,
:it wouldn't a semantic pleonasm any longer, right?
:(Unbelievable that you still know so much about that stuff.
:I remember that I heard something about that at school years ago.
:But I forgot all.)
::;ssg
:I actively remember all the time ^^.
:Nice try, but both your examples up there are equally pleonastic (redundant).
:Simply because of "Below follows". Those two words are redundant of each other.
:(I formulated that line a bit differently on a few pages, most recently on [[OBD:ABNA|ABNA]])
:(It's really no big deal, but when one sees it often... Hm. Hehe. Just delete all this... ^^)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:And that's exactly my problem : no one will ever want to thumbnail them
::;geyser
:I don't follow. What's exactly your problem?
:If you upload an image with 300x150, Wiki shows it with 300x150.
:Why do you care about so much, that "no one will ever want to thumbnail them".
:Sorry, but I don't get it.
::;ssg
:Auto-thumbnailing to any size you specify in an article,
::along with auto-hyperlinking to the "image page"
:::(possibly holding informative content or a redirect),
::::is ''the'' main advantage of wiki-based media content.
:Your images make no use of that, which is why the point for having them wiki-based is weak.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:Another reason why, e.g., Wikipedia has all its media wiki-based
:is that it there's no user directories stored on the server alongside the wiki
:(something we ''do'' have on oni2.net, and "always will" : both run in parallel)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:Some wikis prevent the display of external images. We do not, and the main reason
:is the ability, e.g., for me to link to Oni's [[Music/CD|OST MP3]] or [[Oni2:Influences/StateOfEmergency/Pictures|SoE screenshots]]
:(all that resides on oni2.net, and takes no more time to load than if it was wiki-based, maybe less)
:That also makes the point for uploading "plain-transcluded" images rather weak.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:The inability to rename the images
::;geyser
:You can rename them. (Why the heck do you want to rename them?)
::;ssg
:You can ''not'' rename ("move") media files. I'm sorry, but it's true.
:You can only delete them and/or upload them with a new name.
:I want to be able to rename them because the current names are
::a (not too pretty) relict of your own site's nomenclature.
:I want to be able to rename them because that's part of the full-control editing you're aiming at.
:It's wrong to massively edit (and ultimately split/merge) a file and be tied by the name someone else gave it, long ago.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:lousy short-term flexibility
::;geyser
:As I said: Split it and override the existing one. I can't see a problem here.
::;ssg
:See above : that's not what I call overwhelming editorial freedom.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:Make it PNG rather than GIF
::;geyser
:Yes, Wiki says: use png instead of gif, because gif supports only 256 colours.
:But: None of my hex screenshots uses more than 50 different colours.
:So it would be IMO really pretty stupid to change the file format without any need.
::;ssg
:There are a few other reasons to use PNG instead of GIF
:#It's open, not proprietary, but perhaps that's what we care about the least
:#It allows for advanced transparence effects (OK, that doesn't apply here either)
:#It compresses the images to much smaller sizes, despite the higher color depth.
:A high compression rate means more processor stress on the client side (peanuts)
:But the downloaded size is much smaller, which is especially felt by the server.
:How much is "much"? Well, it turns out that the PNG are about 70% smaller
:For instance, abna_a.gif takes up 5646 bytes.
:Converting it to PNG takes the size down to 1710 bytes.
:That's not much for a single download, of course.
:But it always helps to ease the load on the server, right?
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:Capitalize the names according to the names of the actual files
::;geyser
:Er... why should I do that? Are you trying to use a steamroller to crack a nut?
::;ssg
:Dunno. We use properly capitalized extensions everywhere : page names, OUP, plain text...
:The only exception is your site, and while I can't make you rename your own images, ^^
:I'd rather the ones you upload didn't inherit the "inconsistent" lowercase names.
:I ''so'' wish you'd have asked before uploading all of them... If you only knew... ^^
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:Whatever your "OBD Image" template is supposed to do, it's probably a bad idea.
::;geyser
:Well, this has something to do with style.
:If f.e. someone changes the wiki background colour, so that it isn't longer white, you will have
:*a centered header,
:*an image with white background but with a max. width of 690px on the left,
:*and a table with a width of 100 percent.
:That sucks. It doesn't look good.
:But if you put the white-backgrounded image in a white-backgrounded table with a width of 100 percent,
:it will look much better. (Try it if you don't believe me.)
::;ssg
:Personally and generally, I don't give a crap about the nice looks as long as the content is there.
:And, as I've said, I'm colorblind, so I feel like leaving the color issues entirely to your expertise.
:So I guess we could say I ''do'' "believe" you in those matters (I mean web design in general).
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:However, I've never seen a MediaWiki build with a non-white background : that'd be 100% vain.
:''That'' is what would suck. Oni or no Oni, I don't think I could stand running a ''vain'' wiki.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:How you systematically stretch your tables to the page's width is not ''exactly'' fine by me, either.
:In many cases, stretching the content over a large screen looks like a waste of space
:(and I feel like left-aligning or centering them without stretching them, instead)
:(if not for the main OBD tables, at least the auxiliary ones are often quite small)
:(see [[OBD:BINA|BINA]])
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:It's nothing I can't live with, of course. Most of the time page-wide tables look nice.
:And I always have the possibility to customize an O table'sembed a "100%" table into a normal table.
:(I ''insist'' on that right : see my suggestion for the wiki-wide table template)
:(custom width and custom alignment : you ''have'' to allow for those)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:Oh, and as for the centered header : it doesn't have to be centered.
:The alignment is one of the template's parameters, by design.
:First, the longer files (e.g., [[OBD:ONCC|ONCC]]) have a table of contents.
::(with the fields split up, even not too thematically, it allows one to
:::jump from the top of the page to the region one is interested in).
:The header is supposed to fit alongside the TOC on a reasonably large monitors (see, e.g., [[OBD:CRSA|CRSA]])
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:Second, even when there is no TOC, one can provide a few initial "words of wisdom".
:Something that introduces the reader to the general purpose of the file
::and outlines its layout in the most synthetic way (see, e.g., [[OBD:ONVL|ONVL]])
:::or [[OBD:ONCV|ONCV]], or even [[OBD:ONWC|ONWC]], although it certainly need reorganizing.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:Info on links, too : what kind of resources this file links to, as well as "what links here".
:All that infromation is IMO best presented before the detailed breakdown of the structure.
:Such a summary (very Wikipedia-like) would very well fit alongside the "header".
:Whenever there is a TOC, I'd still have the ''TOC'' alongside the header, though.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:I'd like to use the image template for the hex images (even if we don't need it now).
::ssg
:I have a few more considerations for you, and an alternative. Check out [[OBD:ABNA|ABNA]].
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:We should have a zip file with all the current struct defs somewhere.
::ssg
:On svn.oni2.net, of course. In the same folder as the individual struct defs will be.
:We'll have to redefine all of them (see above, talk to Alloc) in the "near" future...
:They have to allow for unambiguous browsing of the file-system by OUP (e.g., patching).
:Starting from a ''named'' file (same name on all versions), the patcher should use
::''nothing but version-independent information'' to browse the level-files.
:Then, and only then, can we create a "legal" patcher that works the same on every version
::and doesn't allow one to download all of Oni's resources for free.
:(I already stressed the other advantage of that system : ''modularity'')
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:Actually, it may sound crazy, but I feel like taking [[Test#OBD_file_types|THIS]] experiment a bit further.
::;geyser
:Well, if you have enough time, you can do that. Have fun. :p
::;ssg
:I did it. It works. Check it out [[Test#HexRow|HERE]] or on [[OBD:ABNA|ABNA]].
:I didn't implement the black/gray outlines but I don't think we really need them.
:The markup takes up half as much space as the PNG (and 84% less than a GIF, fa fa fa! )
:The rendered HTML takes up more space than a PNG, but it's still less than half as big as a GIF.
:The editability is unrivaled.
:Doing those by hand takes a reasonable time, I'd say, because of the handy layout.
:For larger chunks, though, scripts may be in order.
:Since it's fully editable, you can omit the irrelevant stuff
::(e.g., senseless ASCII, confirmed garbage...)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:But I'd still appreciate if crucial files like [[OBD:AGQG|AGQG]] were kept in sync with Oni Stuff...
::;geyser
:I'm not sure I understand correctly what you want, but if we agree on the design,
:I'll adapt the html2wiki translator to that and update all file pages with the new code.
::[[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 12:57, 17 November 2006 (CET)
:You got it right. I'm looking forward to that.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
==Logging in==
:No time to log in, sorry. Text was written at home.
::;ssg
:That's no excuse. You can type "<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>" into your home-made text. Then log in, edit, and paste your stuff.
:Every "<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>" will be replaced with a correct signature (user name, hyperlink, time and date).
:You may ''have'' to log in some time soon, since we have confirmed spam and I'm not too hot for manual reverts.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:43, 21 November 2006 (CET)
----
----
:After reading your little roman :p , I'd suggest the following things:
::;ssg
:They're called "novels" in English. No one knows why.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:43, 21 November 2006 (CET)
:That's it. Can I start now? Yes or yes? :p
::[[User:ssg|ssg]] 12:42, 21 November 2006 (CET)
:No. Since you're asking, you'll have to wait until tomorrow.
:^^
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:43, 21 November 2006 (CET)
----
----
==Templates==
;[[Template:Table]]
<nowiki>{|BORDER=1 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=2 STYLE="border-style:solid; border-collapse:collapse; empty-cells:show; background:#F9F9F9;" WIDTH={{{width|100%}}} ALIGN={{{align|center}}}</nowiki>
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:43, 21 November 2006 (CET)
:Why do we need the "|center" when the basic width is 100%?
::;ssg
:To have it centered by default if one specifies a smaller width.
:Maybe it should be "left" rather than "center". Minor detail.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:43, 21 November 2006 (CET)
;[[Template:OBD_Table_Header]]
<nowiki>|- BGCOLOR="#E9E9E9"</nowiki>
<nowiki>! WIDTH=5% | Offset || WIDTH=5% | Type || WIDTH=10% | Raw Hex || WIDTH=10% | Value || WIDTH=70% | Description</nowiki>
----
:''No other table templates''. It's not the idea of templates to replace everything.
:When I look to the wiki code, I want to see the real code and not a bunch of links to a hundred of templates.
::;ssg
:I disagree, as a wiki admin and as a "real coder" ^^
:Templates are meant to spare on redundant typing,
::and your tables have a lot of that, primarily :
::*BGCOLOR="#..." for the '''Hex''' column
::*ALIGN=right for the '''Meaning''' column
:If you think having this "information" present in every line is OK,
::think again. It's not this kind of "real code" a casual editor is after.
:An extreme example of that is [[Template:HexRow]].
::Can you imagine what it would look like to have anything close
:::to the "real code" while editing such a table?
:The HTML for such a table is heavy, the wiki-markup is lighter,
::and the templated wiki-markup is ''much'' lighter.
:(there's a template call per row, but it's ''one single'' template,
::so actually it looks very much like ordinary table row syntax)
:Now, the struct def tables are less extreme than that, sure,
::but they still have a rather strict format for every row.
:There's the custom color, there's the custom alignment,
::and there may be systematic hyperlinks from the type column.
:So I'd definitely template that row in the way I suggested.
:Same for the other 2. Their job is to make the code ''editable''.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:43, 21 November 2006 (CET)
----
----
==Misc==
===Type as a column===
:Okay. "Bytes" will be replaced.
::;ssg
:We'll have to agree on the type names...
:And on what page they'll link to.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:43, 21 November 2006 (CET)
===hlines===
:Sorry. My mistake. They will be there.
::;ssg
:What about [[Template:OBD TXT]] and [[Template:OBD TXT dec]]?
:You didn't plan on uploading them (the text files) as wiki-media, did you? ^^
:I'm thinking about making them into wiki-tables (subpages of their respective articles).
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:43, 21 November 2006 (CET)
===Below follows===
:"below follows" is a semantic pleonasm? Why? I don't get it. *tilt*
::;ssg
:Because we write from the top down. Because your tables are top-down lists.
:The "below follows" row splits your tables in two halves.
:Whatever "follows" will inevitably be "below" that row.
:So "before"=="above", and "after"=="below".
:Hence, "Below follows BLAH." is pleonastic.
:"Below is BLAH." is not, and neither is "BLAH follows."
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:00, 22 November 2006 (CET)
===BSP===
:BSP = Binary Space Partition. Use google if you want to know more about it.
::;ssg
:The problem is not with ''me'' not having taken the time to Google it up.
:The problem is that the [[OBD:ABNA|ABNA]] page deals with BSP trees,
::but doesn't provide any info as for what a BSP tree actually is
:::(which is why I asked the question ''there'', obviously).
:The other problem is : if you know what a BSP tree is,
::why those vague comments about the unknown fields?
:::Don't you already know everything about them?
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:00, 22 November 2006 (CET)
----
==Images==
:Let me quote "Sledge Hammer" to comment your "problem(s)":
::"That's a pish pot of nonsense." :p <== I hope you see the smiley.
:So take it easy, even if it sounds a bit rough. :-)
::;ssg
:Now ''that's'' the kind of argumentation I ''like'' ! ^^
:Seriously, it's great that we're no longer afraid of offending each other.
:However, that kind of half-serious subjectivity sorta kills a debate.
:When you call something nonsense and then say you don't mean it,
::what do you ''actually'' mean, if anything at all?
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:00, 22 November 2006 (CET)
:Heh, maybe I should answer you with another quote?
::''THISH ISH A LASHER BLASHTER, SHO YOU DO WHAT YOU'RE TOLD, REBEL SHWINE
:^^
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:00, 22 November 2006 (CET)
:Really, why don't you just mirror your stuff on ssg.oni2.net and link to it?
:Is there any clear reason for not doing so?
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:00, 22 November 2006 (CET)
----
:Besides, if you are really going to replace the images with a table,
::you don't have to care about the image format (gif or png),
:::where they  should be hosted and the presence of image templates.
::;ssg
:That's somewhat more relevant, although not entirely in your favor ^^
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:00, 22 November 2006 (CET)
:I really feel like generating those ASCII tables. With HxD and PsPad.
::("Willst Du mitmachen?" ^^ well, I sorta hoped you to)
:In that respect, no, I don't really care about what you do.
:I mean, images with odd names and formats don't hurt me directly.
:True. Sometimes I just complain about anything and everything... ^^
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:00, 22 November 2006 (CET)
===png===
:Wow, I didn't know that the file size of the png's are so much smaller.
:Nevertheless, I won't change the file format. I can't see any ''real need'' for that.
::;ssg
:If you don't do it, guess who will ^^
:I'll reupload them all as PNG.
::Properly capitalized.
:::On geyser.oni2.net ^^
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:00, 22 November 2006 (CET)
===capitalization===
:I do never capitalize file names.
::;ssg
:Principles, my friend, are yet another "pish pot of nonsense" ^^
::A really big one.
:Mediawiki capitalizes article names and that means filenames.
:''And you know it''. Why do you upload a file called '''wpge_all.gif'''
::when you know it will be shown as '''Wpge_all.gif'''
:(and the actual name of the resource is '''WPge''')?
:You're forcing anyone who wants to work with those images
::(e.g., split/rename them)
:::to live with that counter-intuitive mess.
:Why?
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:00, 22 November 2006 (CET)
:Actually, [[:Image:wpge_all.gif]] will still work,
::but how many can you expect to figure ''that'' out?
:Filenames for uploaded media have to be chosen carefully.
:They have to be ''good'' names, if you like ^^.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:00, 22 November 2006 (CET)
===image template===
:I've never seen a MediaWiki build with a non-white background...
::;geyser
:I have. It was dark blue and didn't look bad.
::;ssg
:Bad looks are ''not'' the problem there.
:OG is ''not'' getting a dark blue background.
:Over my dead body. ^^
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:00, 22 November 2006 (CET)
----
:However, I'll keep the template, because:
:*You can delete the table easily, if you don't like it.
:*If (!) we host the images not any longer at wiki, we can add the new url easily to the template
::;ssg
:Sounds good. You know what? I'll do the same with [[Template:OBDstructRow]] ^^
:I can't believe you were a fierce opponent of "templates everywhere" only a few lines earlier...
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:00, 22 November 2006 (CET)
----
==Bottom line==
:OK, feel free to do ''anything''.
:You are free to update all the tables in every article with your stuff.
:You are also free to only do a few pages, sorta like a test for the format.
:I may give a few pages a try with that [[Template:OBDstructRow]] of mine.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:00, 22 November 2006 (CET)
:The OBD-specific "OBD Table Header" template I'd make less general :
::it's not like we'll never ever have another OBD-specific table template.
:I suggested [[OBDstructHeader]] earlier...
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:00, 22 November 2006 (CET)
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Revision as of 14:17, 3 August 2007

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Retrieved from "https://wiki.oni2.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ssg&oldid=5491"