Oni2:A Storyline/PostSummary2

Part 2/2 of the post summary of the thread "A storyline for Oni 2" from OCF. The first 15 pages are found HERE.

A storyline for Oni 2
(unimportant posts = "--")
[my notes in square brackets]

Post #	Post Link	Poster	Topic(s)	Summary
151	here	guido	Art	Explains that Konoko's smile doesn't mean she is happy to be with Mukade. She could be contemplating the irony, or perhaps it's her Chrysalis that is happy, resonating with Mukade's. Didn't spend much time conceptualizing bike, just wanted a "small assault vehicle". Posts a rough sketch, link is broken now [I suspect this is the pic I linked to in post #142's summary].
152	here	geyser	Story	Thinks firing weapons sideways off that bike is a bad idea, but it would work on the bike he imagines for Mai. As far as fast assault vehicles go, that was what he envisioned for Mr. Big's Humvee. Still doesn't think Mai would trust Mukade. "Teaming up with Mukade would be a living nightmare for Mai" because he would re-awaken bad memories for her. But in theory there's no reason two Daodan hosts couldn't work together; perhaps that's even the "grand design". Points out that, eventually, there is no "Daodan host" anymore, only a new being composed of Daodan cells. But their memories of being human should mean some mental conflict.
153	here	Your_Mom	Story	Perhaps it's a good thing if meeting Mukade re-awakens her memories. Perhaps her view of Mukade changes when she learns something about him (e.g., "Dad?"). Or he forgives her when she didn't think she deserved it, and this touches her heart. We could even have Mukade betray her after earning her trust. Can lead to psychological conflict for Mai. Perhaps her inner conflict leads her to be unable to save Mukade in a "Kerr takes mercury bow shot for Mai" kind of way, which gives us the element of tragedy. Or perhaps she only learns he was her father after he dies. Thinks that Mai and Mukade could work together and put the past behind them if they wanted.
154	here	geyser	Art	Posts pic assembled from various sources to illustrate Konoko's "metabike".
155	here	Your_Mom	Art	Wheels mounted to Mai's feet make sense as a fast way to travel without the bulk of a vehicle. Could wheels fold up or be used as a shield? What are those rods on ninjas' backs for? Perhaps they're plasma swords?
156	here	geyser	Story	Points to Dark Horse's take on the ninja rods, but he doesn't think much of it. [Here's the real answer, per the guy who put the rods there, with a link to the Dark Horse comic's idea.]
157	here	geyser	Story	Mukade talked about becoming something and how Mai should surrender to it. But he speaks of it happening in the future, so either he hasn't made the change himself yet, or he can resist it to some degree. So yes, Mai still needs to act as a human being in order to have a playable game, but there's no "peaceful coexistence" possible for Daodan hosts.
158	here	Seventeen Seconds	Story	Perhaps the ninja rods are "blood-scrubbers that hyper-oxygenate the bloodstream and remove lactic acid so they can run down Konoko." Points out Hardy's statement about Mukade and Mai acting towards each other as "super predators", not as dad and daughter. Mukade shouldn't be brought back because his killing showed Mai crossing an important moral boundary. If he is explored, he shouldn't be made to be Konoko's dad, in order to develop Mukade as his own character and keep separate the question of why Hasegawa abandoned his family. He would be an awkward fit in an Oni 2 story and would tend to hijack the plot towards himself. There are other ways for him to appear in the story without actually being revived. Suggests to guido that they try to illustrate the Oni 2 story he has on paper [this would become the Wasteland Flowers project].
159	here	geyser	Project	Planned to start working on some Oni 2 material by Christmas. "Amnesia is not just a plot trick", it will allow us to give the game a natural-feeling introduction and learning curve. And characters like Mukade from Oni 1 won't be the same as before. We can draw new connections between them.
160	here	guido	Project	Welcomes working with 17sec, but feels that an Oni 2 story belongs to the community and shouldn't be told by just one or two people. So it's valuable to have these discussions on the forum. Also, the story can't be planned from just a top-down direction, or bottom-up, but we need to slowly work at it from all angles.
161	here	guido	Story	Konoko didn't want to see everyone be implanted with Chrysalises, so instead she blew up the ACCs. She knew the danger the world would be in if everyone survived by having Chrysalises implanted. Agrees that amnesia is a good way to build a plot and show Mai's quest for an identity. Perhaps Imago stage is actually something "transient", temporary and unstable. A butterfly does not live as long as its larval form does, and is very delicate. When the Daodan finishes consuming and replacing the host cells, what will satiate it? It may consume itself in the end, but leave behind a "seed", a "regenerated host" which is improved, sans Daodan. Perhaps the Mai that awakes with no memories years after Oni 1 is the regenerated seed of the original Mai. We should strike a balance between the cliche of bringing everyone back and creating a totally new villain with some newly-invented connection to Oni 1.
162	here	geyser	Story	Introduces notion of META, a "technological mega-consortium run by the Syndicate++ state. It makes everything from weapons to vehicles to droids/SLDs/mechas/cyborgs(/Daodans?)". It's essentially the source of all technological innovation in the world. Questions how guido's notion of Konoko's motivation in blowing up the ACCs jives with the outro movie. Konoko had faith in the Daodan, almost blindly, thinking that it could be given to all the people. Perhaps this was additionally due to mental alienation occurring due to her Daodan Chrysalis. Agrees that giving everyone Chrysalises would practically lead to Armageddon, with Mutant Muros all over the place. Although perhaps that conflict is part of the "grand design", but that kind of climax couldn't happen until about halfway through Oni 3. But his explanation of Konoko's decision is that she wasn't "herself". Having to deal with that realization is what would lead to her trance and amnesia, as it wouldn't be possible to kill oneself as a Daodan host. But his version of the story does have this point in common with guido's, that she "dies" after Oni 1. The will of her human mind to remain human disrupts the Daodan's evolution and they both collapse into inactivity. The story of Oni 2 would be both Konoko regaining her mind, and the Daodan regaining its "mind", its programming to evolve its host. Whichever regains its strength first will win. If both regain strength and come into conflict again, the cycle will repeat (perhaps in Oni 3!). The solution might be learning to communicate with this "other mind". The other characters returning from Oni 1 might be able to help. Muro is an example of what happens when one gives in to the Daodan and loses one's own mind. But because Mai and Mukade are still resisting mentally, they can't achieve Imago. Agrees that we don't want to introduce a totally new villain with no connection to Oni 1's story. Wants to bring back Shinatama, who backed herself up (perhaps only partially) before being physically destroyed. Likes owldreamer's concept of Hikari being a resurrected Shinatama. But Shinatama 2 doesn't necessarily help Mai a lot, because at first she's scared of her, and also she doesn't know all the answers herself, pertaining to the Daodan and Mai's fate. Kerr did not survive Oni 1, but he could have left recordings with valuable information, perhaps anticipating some events in Oni 2 a la Hari Seldon [who predicts the future using mathematics in Asimov's Foundation stories]. Shinatama 2 might discover these recordings and selectively share them with Mai over time. Barabas could return, but in a non-notable role where he's hardly even recognizable -- just something for players of Oni 1 to catch. Repeats his doubts about the Hasegawa story: it was on a CD dropped by Mukade; he did all that research in just months [what is this time estimate based on?]; and years later, at the time of Oni, there still isn't a "pending environmental crisis" [um...]. Thinks that Hasegawa was being tampered with in order to start the project and make such quick advancement (and this tampering may also involve Jamie's death); later on, he must have realized he was being influenced. He eventually implanted a Chrysalis in himself, before or after Muro, either to be able to understand what Muro would face, or to be able to watch over him if he doubted Muro's goodness, or to investigate the Daodan's mission himself. He knew to expect a battle of wills and was able to stay human, perhaps even achieving communication with his Chrysalis. Doesn't accept that Hasegawa and Kerr simply thought of the Daodan as a great cure for polluted air; they must have understood the deeper, darker implications. Perhaps Imagoes do consume themselves and Muro would have died soon after fighting Mai anyway. That would make the ones who resist full Imago, like Mai and Mukade, the strong ones. As long as they hold on to their humanity, they continue to get some of the benefits of the Daodan, but will remain vulnerable, unlike an Imago. That might be the only possibility for stability in a Daodan host. Perhaps the "grand design" behind the Daodan is actually to select these stronger-willed people, in order to face some danger or challenge. Only those "survivors" will be able to communicate with the beings guiding the Daodan; although that might be the subject of Oni 3.
163	here	TNT	Story	"Don't give Shinatama amnesia", will make story too corny if everyone is running around with amnesia. Although she might have kept regular backups of her mind, she still would probably not have a record of anything that happened after her kidnapping or other later events, so that in and of itself can explain her lack of total knowledge. Thinks that bringing Kerr back in recordings is too reminiscent of Dr. Light in Megaman X; limit him to a flashback or diary entries. Wants to stay close to interpretation of Jamie's death as mercy kill, rather than conflicting with the story we were given in Oni 1. Thinks that, if Muro became an Imago because he gave in to the Daodan, then Mai did as well; she jumped into that acid vat; she trusted in the Chrysalis to help her defeat Muro. Perhaps hypos sedate the human consciousness somewhat, and that's what allows the Daodan to overpower them. Questions the meaning of the word "perfect" in relation to the Imago. Doesn't "perfect" mean being able to adapt to changing situations, not being unable to adapt? So the Imago has no reason to self-destruct just because it finishes adapting to a certain situation; it would remain able to keep adapting. Could first level of Oni 2 be a dream level where Konoko is seeing parts of the events of Oni 1? Might make a good training level.
164	here	geyser	Story	Suggests the message of Oni 2 be: "Our strength lies in our imperfection. So does our inner beauty. Imperfection is key. Imperfection is what provides a dynamic aspect to our existence. Imperfection is our true essence." Interprets Kerr's and Mukade's words to Konoko to mean that she should resist the transformation. The true expression of a weak-willed person's nature is to give in to the Daodan and become an Imago, but those who resist, like Konoko, are the ones who are "beautiful" and "strong" in their imperfection and weakness. Compares falling in love as an act of giving up oneself to Mai's need to hold onto herself; she is always falling in love, but never fallen. Perhaps Mai ends up fighting Hikari because she thinks Hikari's hiding something from her.
165	here	geyser	Story	TNT's point about why Shinatama has amnesia is exactly what he was getting at. And if she remains in digital form, she might be emotionally distant from Mai. And he had the same basic plan for bringing back Kerr, through diary entries and the like. But Mai can still "talk" to Kerr and others from Oni 1, in dream levels. Is okay with leaving Jamie's mercy kill at face value. But Mai is not completely trusting in the Daodan when she dives into the acid vat, and she's definitely not an Imago by the end of Oni. Likes point about hypo allowing Daodan to be more dominant; shows the danger of taking too many hypos. The Daodan is perfect in that it can adapt to anything, but its mind is still replacing the host's mind and becoming something more like an animal's mind. And anyway, the word "perfect" doesn't have any clear absolute meaning, we have to define it within a certain context ourselves. Better to use the cave as a training level; there will be a nightmare intro before that, but it will work better as a cinematic.
166	here	guido	Story	Suggests that Mai and Mukade will have to learn that the Daodan is not the final answer, and overcome their fears so they don't lose themselves [I'm not totally sure I follow what guido is saying here]. Mai will need to learn to trust her father and/or someone else, and learn from Mukade. Interprets Mai's line "The Chrysalis will change us all" to refer to the changes she and Muro have brought about; the question is whether a new seed can be planted in this soil of chaos. Her "father's work" refers to something like a figurative change in humankind's perspective, not to giving everyone the Daodan [again, I feel like I'm translating a language I don't know here, this is a really difficult post for me]. A failed Imago such as Mai is like someone who refuses to grow up. But a failed Imago will still age, so 20 years is too long. He doesn't see Mai sleeping in some kind of suspended animation. Let's make it more like 7 years. The story could have three phases: Konoko struggling for control over her Chrysalis; then deciding to become an Imago to save the world; in the climax, we are introduced to the Seed, "and new horizons will arise". Likes idea of Meta Industries. They think that technology is the answer to all their problems. "In some sense Meta Industries are repeating the same errors from the past, and someone would have to change it." But he doesn't see Meta tech as being refined and elegant; they are always rushing to move to the next level, so their machines are built hastily. They also need to appear rarely, and be somewhat unstable, maybe dangerous to use, albeit capable of amazing things. Likens to concept of "If I had a Trow..." in Myth.
167	here	geyser	Story	Questions why Meta tech can't be refined and elegant. And what threats is Meta responding to? Perhaps they seem to be doing it for their own reasons, not in response to a known threat. Implies that Mukade is the head inventor. As the devices are the product of an unearthly intelligence, they should be "wrong" somehow, beyond normal human understanding. And the Metabike is something that a normal human would not be agile enough to use, plus you have no body protection as you speed along. "The disturbing thing about it (as it will be for most other Meta-stuff) is that it's simply not meant for human operators." Agrees that Meta tech should be rare, but they can also have multiple variations on the same device, and vary them randomly like Oni does with ONCC body sizes. Doesn't agree with guido's interpretation of the outro monologue, as Konoko still made the choice to blow up the ACCs; did she do that out of fear of the Daodan or out of hope in it? Reiterates point about cause of Mai's amnesia; if she'd known from the start what the Daodan was, the struggle with it wouldn't have been too bad, but she only realized when it was almost too late to retain her faculties. Perhaps she is trapped in her own mind by the Daodan, which would allow for levels like the movie "The Cube". The Daodan is trying to track her down in her own mind, kind of like Agent Smith and Neo in the Matrix. She has to become even fitter mentally in order to continue to resist the Daodan's increasingly smart attacks. With regards to fear, Mai needs to learn to not be afraid of the Daodan, in order to cope with it. She can learn from Mukade, who is more experienced. Together they can walk a path perpendicular to the one the Daodan wants to evolve in, and find a new way. Dislikes idea of Mai deciding to give in to Imago, as this means alienation for the player. How can we even write a story around an alien intelligence? "The whole purpose of the Daodan may be to face strong minds with the threat of disappearing completely, and maintain that threat in order to make the human mind achieve a greater knowledge and control of itself as well as of the Daodan entity, develop at a whole new level (telepathy etc) while retaining its very essence. Ultimately, the human mind gets so strong that its strength and that of the Daodan are perfectly matched, and it's some kind of peaceful coexistence then." Seven years is not long enough to let Griffin be dead without having to specify how he died [Cf. Oni's forked ending], and to let the Cataclysm's effects die down. If it's too soon after the Cataclysm, people will be more likely to simply lynch Konoko. Reiterates idea of Mai joining a Rebellion, which allows for lots of individuals with separate motivations. When it's revealed who Mai is, they each have to take a stand on what to do about her. Similar to Oni 1, Mai would start off as a "clueless pawn" and gradually realize the truth. Shinatama/Hikari may have trouble understanding the new Mai, making their new relationship more complex. Disagrees that the host or the Daodan has to win; "as in the case of war, there is then no victor to speak of. True victory means ceasefire, compromise, cooperation, peace." We can show that the human mind is strong even if the flesh is weak. This can mean an interesting reversal of Oni 1, where Konoko as a host is being invaded by the Daodan; this time she's mentally invading the Daodan that has replaced her cells.
168	here	geyser	Story	The Meta bike's wheels will be easily removable, but they will slow you down if you want to carry them. You can use them to attack enemies with kicks or jumps. Once they exhaust their limited energy, you can throw them at opponents like with an empty weapon. Reiterates that Mukade will be "king of the world", although he won't go by "Mukade". He may have doubles everywhere, so Mai goes into META to investigate who is really behind things. She and Mukade sense each other, and it begins to bring back memories for her; Mukade begins investigating who she is. Thinks Oni 1's ninjas are robots or SLDs. Rods on their backs may be grenades or some kind of jump boosters. [See post #156 summary for real answer.] Perhaps ninjas are based on Mukade's brain engrams. Mukade's spikes are for defense, maybe electrified. Bottom one retracts so he can sit on a vehicle. Perhaps ninjas self-destruct to keep their secret. Discounts Hardy's explanation of Mai and Mukade as "super predators" [despite the fact that Hardy wrote the story...]. Why doesn't she sense Muro then? Hasegawa doesn't "abandon" his family [responding to post #158], he is abducted by Syndicate. Then "the logical step is not to run away, but to become the true master of the situation." Yes, "killing" Mukade was an important moment in Oni 1, but not in the sense of removing Konoko's innocence (she goes through the whole game killing dudes!), but rather in a more Oedipal, Greek tragedy kind of way. There's still the possibility of redemption and forgiveness by Mukade.
169	here	geyser	Project	Asks 17sec about his "trailer work", and if he's done any animations for his Iron Demon model so geyser can use it in his upcoming Oni 2 work.
170	here	Your_Mom	Gameplay	Wasn't geyser against "primitive weapons" like katanas [which Mai is holding in geyser's Meta bike concept art]? Attacking with swords would mean blood spraying all over the place in a fight. Wonders if ninjas could be aliens, which would also explain their masks and wide-set eyes. The back rods are probably batteries, which power their moves, because there is an electricity effect on their moves, and their back glows during some attacks such as punch_heavy [is this true?]. Suggests that Metabike wheels could be used as shields, or even still used like rollerblades once powerless; they would still save energy over running on foot.
171	here	geyser	Project	He is against primitive weapons, it was just a sample image. Doesn't think bulky masks make sense for ninjas; what's the point of even masking their voices when they're supposed to be silent? They might be experimental SLDs made by Mukade. Maybe the masks are just to create a sense of "group psychology". Likes Your_Mom's idea about backpacks -- if they are cyborgs, then the backpack might even contain a confined Daodan biomass as a booster. Doesn't want to keep Metabike around as a shield or "rollerblades" when it's run out of gas, as it would weigh down Mai, and we want the player to discard the Bike when it's an encumbrance.
172	here	Seventeen Seconds	Project	Tells guido that he has a script that he would love to work with him on for a graphic novel. He has tried to keep community's wishes and developers' intent in mind when writing it, and will post a rough draft when it's ready.
173	here	owldreamer	Project	Posts a new render of Hikari.
174	here	geyser	--	--
175	here	Your_Mom	Project	Obscuring their voices would make sense if the ninjas sometimes appear in public in plainclothes to track someone, or to infiltrate a group. Agrees that ninjas don't have to be aliens, likes SLD idea better. Metabike would not weight down Mai as a shield because the motors would stay attached to her legs or get thrown away; the remaining wheel is much lighter. Agrees that it would be more difficult for Mai to move, and she could be knocked down more easily.
176	here	guido	Project	Asks to see 17sec's story. Posts another broken art link [apparently this one].
177	here	owldreamer	Project	Likes guido's sketch, but what is he doing to Hikari?! Is optimizing Hikari's 3D model.
178	here	Your_Mom	Project	Doesn't think it's Hikari, just an incomplete SLD.
179	here	geyser	Project	Doesn't think it's Hikari either. Points to Strident as something akin to Oni 2. Wants to have Metabike talk in another thread.
180	here	guido	Project	Replying to geyser's post [#167] taking issue with guido's figurative interpretation of Konoko's outro monologue. We don't know how much time has passed, so Konoko could have had the time to reflect on the situation. She sees the results of her action and feels sympathy and guilt. Since a person taking action on a large scale is bound to bring about not just their good intentions, but much damage as well, Mai is stating that the Chrysalises have changed humanity in that Daodan hosts have brought an end to the old world through their aggressiveness. Reiterates his notion that the Daodan inside a host leads to a permanent state of struggle in Mai and Mukade, who don't give in to the "oblivion", and become stronger as a result. This realization could take place during the time of Oni 2. Likens process to a flower becoming a fruit; one thing of beauty is replaced by something else. The Daodan host can't exactly control the process, but they can choose a path to go down. Lastly, the large changes brought about in Oni, and the world problems that have been brought to light, are likely to lead to large countermeasures. The resulting state of emergency, or martial law, could be seen as an analogue to Mai's mental resistance to the changing force of the Daodan.
181	here	guido	Art	Posts more Hikari art (broken link).
182	here	guido	Art	Posts more Hikari art (broken link).
183	here	owldreamer	Art	Likes guido's art. Wonders what kind of clothes Hikari should wear.
184	here	geyser	Story	Agrees with analogy between Mai's state of mind and the state of the populace, but does guido intend to say that the people should just give in to their destiny of being ruled by a "dehumanizing government"? Doesn't see a Daodan host as changing into some final form. The change is ongoing and never ends -- "constant evolution towards nothing in particular". Thinks that the interesting part of the premise is that it never ends. Also, the Daodan and Mai could be seen as improving each other cooperatively (the Daodan brings the physical component and Mai brings the mind), rather than being at war. Doesn't think that we should expect Mai et al. to accept some mysterious "destiny" and allow themselves to transform into something that may be "evil incarnate" or simply a tool in some larger plan. Points out that guido's ironic interpretation of Konoko's outro speech makes the line about "salvation" particularly hard to understand. Questions whether anyone even had an optimistic view of how the Chrysalis would be used, besides Hasegawa. And why would Hasegawa try to treat the symptoms of the problem using the Chrysalis instead of fighting the pollution? Disagrees with guido's interpretation meaning that any real societal issues were "revealed" by Konoko blowing up the ACCs. Her actions don't somehow prove the WCG to be in the wrong. Rather, people are now desperately trying to survive somehow in a polluted world, due to an action one person took impulsively. Perhaps the Daodan does have deeper meaning as part of some ET plan, but that would be a subject for another sequel after Oni 2.
185	here	caddy	Story	Suggests that if a race of immaterial beings needed host bodies in order to survive, then perhaps they are behind the pollution that is encroaching on civilization. The Daodan could be the means by which they inhabit a body, and in order to promote its use, they have created the current ecological crisis. However, they may not have anticipated that the material beings would invent ACCs to tame the pollution. Thus, they had to influence Konoko to blow them up.
186	here	Your_Mom	Story	Thinks Konoko was foolish not to destroy the dish instead of destroying the ACCs. Hasegawa knew that the Chrysalis was needed because he saw that the ACCs were not going to solve the problem. The problem was not going to go away, and in fact was getting worse. The world's reliance on ACCs was bad precisely because it was a weak point for someone like Muro to attack. Disagrees with entire idea of having a higher intelligence planning things from behind the scenes. Disagrees with idea of never-ending evolution of the Daodan host; Kerr said "Whatever your final form...". Thinks that Kerr was telling the truth about this final form being an expression of one's true nature. We simply have to look at Muro for an example of this; he was evil, so he became monstrous in form. That was his final form. Nowhere does the game indicate that the Daodan is going to take away one's humanity, but rather the host's mind influences the way that the host's body turns out.
187	here	geyser	Story	Agrees that caddy's idea is one possible interpretation of the Daodan not being so benevolent. At the very least this idea can be used as a sort of red herring while Mai and others are trying to figure out what is really going on. Perhaps Mai even wonders if she was being influenced to blow the ACCs (which may or may not be true). Perhaps guido's "benevolent intentions" idea can also be floated as a possibility for the player and for Mai as she investigates. Reiterates that the idea of giving everyone Chrysalises, which Konoko seems to support, is a really bad idea considering how Muro turned out. Reiterates that Kerr didn't know anything about how the Chrysalis experiment would turn out. ACCs were working perfectly well at keeping pollution at bay two decades after Hasegawa was saying the sky was falling. People could walk around freely without masks, etc.
188	here	geyser	Story	Likes idea in guido's art of Mai fighting SLDs as they come off an assembly line. Not sure that they should be able to be manufactured so quickly, though. Perhaps the finished SLDs are put on ice, but Konoko's intrusion causes them to be thawed out and attack her. Perhaps she even encounters Barabas++ in one cryo-chamber.
189	here	Your_Mom	Story	Disagrees that Kerr was ignorant about the Daodan. He knew there would be a transformation into a final form, didn't he? And that's what happened with Muro. Why wouldn't scientists like Hasegawa and Kerr have tested the Chrysalis first, as a prototype, before making Mai's and Muro's Chrysalises? After all, they designed it to save the human race. And geyser hasn't addressed the fact that if an ACC shut down, people would start dying. The pollution is very visible in the sky in some levels. And Red Strikers do wear gas masks [and has everyone forgotten about Hapécat?!?]. And why there so few people out and about?
190	here	geyser	Story	Does not see pollution in levels' skyboxes. Some levels are at sunset and so the sky is orange in one direction and purple in the other; just like our skies, except that the skyboxes are garish. There's also solar panels [where?], so there can't be too much smog getting in the way of the sun. And some high-level enemies/cops do get masks, but those are part of their full-body armor. Civilians, on the other hand, walk around in casual clothing. Just because Muro became monstrous, that doesn't mean it was a full representation of his true nature. The transformation was hasty and inexact, a caricature. And no one implanted a Chrysalis to save the human race. The Syndicate wanted a human bomb, and Griffin wanted a countermeasure. Does not think that Hasegawa was in his right mind when initiating the Daodan project. After all, if he knew that someone could turn out like Mutant Muro did, then wouldn't a world of Daodan hosts lead to Armageddon? So perhaps he was under some intangible influence. And since they were made to implant the Chrysalises, they probably were not sure yet what would happen. It's strange that Hasegawa thought he could develop the Chrysalis under the Syndicate and not have them take over the project at some point; perhaps he even planned it this way. The reason there's so few people milling about is that thugs are running around with guns, TCTF is closing off the perimeter, etc. Maybe the cities have curfews. Besides which, we know the engine wasn't ready for lots of civilians and cars driving around.
191	here	Your_Mom	Story	Still thinks that masks on Strikers are significant and thinks skyboxes look unnatural. If there was a curfew, why are there people at the airport? Discounts geyser's statement that the engine was too limited to have more cars and people. Hasegawa might have simply been driven by grief when starting the Daodan project. If Chrysalises weren't originally meant to be implanted, then what were they for? Will TCTF exist in Oni 2?
192	here	geyser	Story	Agrees that TCTF would no longer be around. Airport level could simply take place before curfew. If those masks are for filtering air, why would only high-level troops have them? And civilians don't seem to need them.... Doesn't think that Hasegawa's grief would allow him to overlook the dangers of the project. The skyboxes are just ugly and garish, that's the only reason for slight differences in color from reality. You aren't even allowed to see a whole sky in Oni's levels, because there's no sun. Reiterates that the engine was too limited to allow for more civilian activity. Suggests that explanations for Hasegawa's actions can be ambiguous; we can have multiple options. If Hikari can change her skin's color, can she wear a "chameleon" skin or some form of phase cloak?
193	here	Your_Mom	Story	The skyboxes are actually some of the better textures in the game. There's a lens flare if you look up at where the sun should be. Bungie at least could have made more cars in cutscenes. And not every level is barricaded -- you can run freely around the outside of TCTF HQ. There's not even any traffic lights, let alone traffic! Is unsatisfied with a lack of explanation for Hasegawa's actions; why start a project to save the world using funds from criminals? If he was behaving so irrationally, why did Kerr work with him? Points out that long-term phase cloaking causes cellular damage; this would not be a problem for an SLD!
194	here	geyser	Story	SLDs are made from organics too, although Hikari is a more mechanical kind of android. Prefers to stay away from topics like invisible walls in levels and other obvious limitations of the game technology. Re: adding more moving cars, Bungie couldn't even make the Warehouse truck's doors move with the truck. There are solar panels and civilians don't wear masks; that's as much as we need to know to understand that the air isn't heavily polluted, end of story. Hasegawa's connection to the Syndicate was probably not direct enough for Kerr to become aware of the danger. Kerr is rather submissive and naive, too, as seen in Oni, so he simply follows where Hasegawa leads. Questions how anyone knows what really happened to Jamie, as only witness was Hasegawa; why was he carrying a gun, anyway? Maybe that "virus" that was killing Jamie was just a cover story. Maybe the 'global poisoning' was a fabrication. Either Hasegawa was being manipulated, and really believed the things he wrote and really thought working under the Syndicate was a good idea, or else he had some ulterior motive. Maybe he expected the Syndicate to take over at some point. Maybe the goal was to use the Daodan as leverage to take over the organization. Either he planned to put his children in place at the head of the Syndicate, or else he became cautious because of the danger that Muro represented, and decided to allow him to (seemingly) lead the Syndicate, and use him as a tool. Perhaps Muro's plan to hold the world hostage with the ACCs was given to him by Hasegawa. However, Hasegawa actually engineered improvements to the ACCs that would reverse the damage in months or years. If any Syndicate scientists realized this, Hasegawa/Mukade's ninjas would take care of them. Muro wouldn't have found this out until it was too late, and then as the Syndicate collapsed, Hasegawa could simply have slipped into the shadows. This means that Konoko did everything wrong, incapacitating Mukade (dad) so he couldn't direct the final stages of the process, and blowing up the ACCs instead of allowing Hasegawa's plan to proceed. When Mukade confronted Konoko, he was curious to see if she was developing in a good way or bad, especially after seeing how Muro had turned out. After she took him out and caused things to get much worse, the opposite of what he had planned, he would naturally be resentful and/or afraid of her in Oni 2. Now he has no choice but to re-take control of the Syndicate to deal with the worsening situation, instead of ditching the Syndicate to flounder and die as he had planned. Acknowledges that this series of events makes the Daodan just a pawn in Hasegawa's master plan and may not be the desired direction we want for an Oni 2. But it does explain a lot of Oni's loose threads, doesn't it? It makes out Hasegawa to be brilliant after all, unless the Daodan has actually been controlling him all along.
195	here	Your_Mom	Story	Can agree with most of geyser's hypothesis, but doubts Hasegawa would have needed to be cautious with Muro; if Hasegawa is Mukade, then why couldn't he handle Muro and take leadership of the Syndicate himself? All the better to carry out his plans, then. In any case, Mukade wouldn't have to kill the scientists who were onto his plan, just persuade them to not tell Muro. And if the Syndicate reversed the atmospheric damage, they'd be hailed as heroes. Hasegawa could stay in charge, and perhaps even overthrow the WCG in time, making him President of the World. Questions how Konoko's signal could have destroyed the ACCs. Is against idea that Daodan is somehow masterminding this whole process.
196	here	geyser	Story	Mukade could not simply persuade Muro's men to not tell him, not with ordinary means of persuasion; human nature is not that reliable. But perhaps his Daodan allows him to control minds; that might even be what his spikes are for. The other ninjas' spikes allow him to monitor/control his ninjas, and through them, he can monitor the thoughts of the Syndicate around the world, and "tweak" their minds as necessary if they stumble too close to the truth. It made more sense for Hasegawa to operate in secret; how would he convince the Syndicate that cleaning up the atmosphere was a good idea? Better to convince the Syndicate under Muro to become maniacs working for a cause that they think is criminal. Muro was the charismatic, crazed leader that was needed to push the Syndicate in the desired direction; Hasegawa couldn't have played that role, and he also needed privacy and time to work on his real plan; better to stay in the background as Lead Researcher or Master Ninja or just The Boss's Daddy. But once they fulfill Hasegawa's plan, there would be no more Syndicate because there'd be no work for maniacs trying to pollute the world. Muro also did away with the more sensible, business-minded leaders of the Syndicate, making it that much easier for the organization to topple. And the Syndicate wouldn't have any way to prove that they were the "heroes" that fixed the pollution; the WCG's ACCs did the job, after all. It made more sense in Oni 1 for Hasegawa to use the Syndicate than the WCG because the WCG is too conservative, and it's easier to mislead the Syndicate than to convince the WCG of the problem. In Oni 2, he'll need the Syndicate again because they're in the best position to help him get things done and they're the only ones who will listen to him. However, he'll need to convince them that the ACCs are now needed; that it's better to restore the few that are still around than to just prey on survivors in a wasteland. However, he'll have lots of blood on his hands by this point, and even more when the Syndicate has to fight against rebels in Oni 2. Combined with his weighty responsibility and the Daodan inside him, he may become alienated from humanity. He is stuck in a position where he has no choice but to try to control the Syndicate and limit its violence while fighting the pollution, and there may be no end to his task. When Mai is discovered by the rebels, he gradually becomes aware of her, but decides to let her fight it out, as he does in Oni 1. Eventually he'll reach out to her.... As far as Your_Mom's objection to the "grand design" theory, it can be one possibility that some characters believe in. And there's no denying that something odd is behind the behavior of Hasegawa and Konoko. And Konoko's signal destroyed the ACCs because she sent them parameters that were too high and it "overload[ed] the generators".
197	here	Your_Mom	Story	Even being known as Boss's Daddy would probably be too close an association. And Hasegawa might reach out to Konoko in order to kill her.
198	here	geyser	Story	On the contrary, being known as Muro's Dad should make him seem harmless, which will suit his plans. What does it matter to the Syndicate if they're related? And anyway, they will be bound to wonder why Hasegawa has a Chrysalis in him, and how it is that they both joined the organization at the same time. But Hasegawa will eventually have to take control of the Syndicate in Oni 2, reluctantly, to try and rule the world so he can fix things. It will be a great burden for him and he may eventually be unable to tell if he is even doing the right thing. Since he will live forever, he feels the need to guide humanity in a certain direction; the rebels, and Mai, are fighting against that. Agrees that Hasegawa might try to kill Mai, but only if he has a good reason. Will post combat move sketches soon.
199	here	Your_Mom	Story	Simply thinks that idea of a "grand design" is clichéd and boring.
200	here	geyser	Story/Art	Posts combat move pics. Points out that this will still be an action game; all the philosophy and master plans will be in the background for players who wish to contemplate them (like Oni 1's terminals). Some amount of cliché is sort of unavoidable in an action game where the good guy fights against bad guys. But we can leave the issue of a grand design as just one possibility for the player. For the most part, the events of the game can seem straight-forward, but occasionally a character will give his own diverging take on what is going on. Perhaps the game will even have multiple endings, based on what the player believes is going on. Since guido is all for "grand design" and Your_Mom is dead-set against it, perhaps a pluralistic approach really is the best one.
201	here	caddy	Story	Is concerned about complexity of geyser's plot, but also thinks he is overlooking the kind of layers that Deus Ex had, where the triad war is separate from the larger story of the game. There should be more "external factors" in Oni 2. Is also concerned that "pluralism" in the actual development process will lead to conflicts; one POV needs to take precedence. Asks for a summary of the main points of the Storyline thread so far [I'm on it].
202	here	geyser	Story	Actually, the story allows for lots of complexity, as well as third (and fourth) parties. The rebels aren't all necessarily of the same mind on every issue, for instance what to do with Mai. Some will hate her, some will want to use her as a Daodan-powered tool, some may forgive her, etc. And Meta (the new Syndicate) isn't entirely under Mukade's control. Some of the head guys may realize they're being used, or have their own motivations. Goal behind pluralism is to allow for disagreement among the devs when it comes to the plot. At the same time, someone may have to be in charge of the story to iron out any impassible contradictions. Was planning to summarize thread on OniGalore, but the task would be mind-numbing [tell me about it!]. Suggests that he use his first post as an index of keywords, and then users can search the thread by clicking "Print topic" and getting a one-page listing of all posts which they can search in their browser for those keywords. Recommends some sci-fi reading such as Lem.
203	here	MorrisDay	Story	Is concerned that this "Meta/Phoenix" thing is getting too far from what Oni was about. We should simply build on what Bungie provided in Oni 1; the inspiration taken from GitS, the pulp sci-fi story. Haven't we overlooked how Konoko acts and sees herself? What do the new characters (Hikari, Big) bring to the table? And can we get a summary of this thread [I'm trying, man!] and a gallery of Guido's art? Wouldn't even mind if Oni 2 was just a multiplayer game with little story.
204	here	geyser	Story	Is less interested in Bungie's "context" and more in how the story itself makes us feel and how it's open to interpretation. Where did these ideas go astray from what Oni is about? (Points out all the similarities between the themes in Oni 2 and Oni 1.) But we shouldn't idolize the original story too much; the motivations and settings are rather derivative and simplistic. Why shouldn't we aim higher? Thinks that a new player will be able to come into this story without a learning curve from not knowing Oni 1, and returning players will recognize the themes well enough (authoritarian gov't, Mai being used as a weapon, etc.) that they can connect to it. As for Big, has purposely held off on elaborating on that character so fans wouldn't complain about geyser shoe-horning his own creation into the story; focusing first on elaborating on characters such as Mukade. Hikari isn't geyser's character, but if guido finds her inspiring, then is happy to have her around. In any case, we've only come up with a handful of new characters so far, so before we reject them, we need to give them time to see how they will interact with the established cast. Also, Hikari can be involved in revealing information to Mai about who/what she is (although Hikari is also afraid of her, which adds an interesting dynamic). Will start working on summarizing the thread using the aforementioned keyword index. Will also summarize his personal ideas on the wiki; others are welcome to contribute their own material. Art gallery for Guido is in progress; why hasn't anyone commented on his own art yet? Agrees that Oni 2 should start with multiplayer and basic gameplay elements. This thread is for planning out the story stuff that comes much later in the process.
205	here	guido	Story/Art	Offers to put up a art blog. Welcomes new ideas from others, especially if they remain faithful to Bungie's direction.
206	here	geyser	--	--
207	here	guido	Story	Posts link to his art blog [there's nothing there now].
208	here	geyser	Story	Links to some pages on wiki for Oni 2 characters and his "interactive index" of key concepts from this thread [this was a work in progress that was left 95% unfinished].
209	here	caddy	Gameplay	On second thought, probably won't be the one to summarize the thread so far. Asks about how blocking will work, whether there will be blade weapons, whether we can use a combo system like Matrix: Path of Neo's, how Daodan Overpower mode will work, whether there should be an experience system and skill tree, and what we will do if Oni's owners decide to shut down our work.
210	here	geyser	Gameplay	The gameplay points belong in the Oni 2 Gameplay or Game Concepts thread. Will post later on the subject of "what if our work gets shut down?".
211	here	guido	Art	Posts art [link is broken].
212	here	geyser	Art	Likes it [whatever it is], but a sword in a bloodless game is questionable, "and maybe even the conventional gun". Links to some Tank Girl art for comparison. Complains about guido's art blog's restrictions. Thinks Hikari's com link is rather retro [he must be referring to this art].
213	here	guido	Art	The com link shouldn't be necessary at all for an android; perhaps it's part of a desire on Hikari's part to appear human, or relate to humans.
214	here	geyser	Art	That com link certainly won't help her to blend in on the streets. Unless she's trying to infiltrate Phoenix, but they all know each other, so that wouldn't be effective anyway. Thinks Guido should get an oni2.net account.
215	here	geyser	Story	Asks whether Griffin was spared in Oni 1. Although the spared-Griffin path is a preferable path to the killed-Griffin path [due to geyser's issues with the Mutant Muro fight], in fact the point is somewhat moot, because Oni 2 allows plenty of time for Griffin to be dead anyway, one way or another. Either he dies in or after the battle with Muro, or else he dies in the Cataclysm, or else he is executed for sharing responsibility for Mai's actions. We can then introduce a new character, a former subordinate or a younger relative of Griffin who tries to get revenge against Mai, perhaps egged on by the "old man". Her attempts to assassinate Mai may seem at first like they're coming from anti-Mai elements of Phoenix. Eventually they'll fight openly, and afterwards they'll talk and Mai will learn more about herself. Also, some of the Meta bad guys may know Mai from the old days and reveal some of her history. Mukade himself will show up in mysterious ways, perhaps leaving her riddles, before the old man finally decides to confront her openly. But neither side is all bad; they have their justifications. Meta will occasionally tell Mai to join them by saying "You're one of us, they'll never forgive you for what you did".
216	here	Your_Mom	Story	Suggests that Griffin's avenger also be a Daodan host. Perhaps Meta's line to Mai, à la Athrun to Kira in Gundam SEED, is "Join us, they're only using you."
217	here	geyser	Art/Story	Points Guido to OniGalore as somewhere to place his art. That line of Your_Mom's does fit well, "they're only using you", although doesn't Meta want to use her as well? As for Phoenix, they are against the use of the Daodan because they see it as part of Meta's master plan for humanity. Once they realize Mai is a Daodan host, they will be conflicted on whether it's okay to use her to fight Meta. Doesn't want to give Griffin's avenger a Daodan, that's for Mai's true rival, "Pandora". Pandora is a scientist who defects from Meta, having figured out the Chrysalis implantation process. She brings with her to Phoenix a box of equipment for making a few Chrysalises (Pandora's Box), and preaches the advantages of using the Daodan, but she doesn't really understand the danger that it represents. Mai eventually remembers more about the Daodan's dark side, and confronts Pandora in a fight. Perhaps Pandora doesn't reveal what the box contains, except to a few people. Eventually the Chrysalises from therein may lead to some evil Imagoes for Mai to fight.
218	here	Se_Renkas	Gameplay	Perhaps the game can start in a dojo where the player can practice Konoko's moves while wearing a gi. Then the player gets to transition from the traditional dojo to the futuristic high-tech world outside. In later missions, you get to pick the outfit for Konoko before the level begins.
219	here	geyser	Gameplay	Isn't that a total rip-off of The Matrix? How would we justify the dojo plot-wise? Perhaps it's in her head as part of her amnesiac nightmares. She can enter into that world at any time if she wants to, in order to (mentally) train more. As for Pandora, her dialogue with Mai can help shed light on the duality of the Daodan as a force for good or evil. Suggests to Guido that his art of Mai on a bike with Mukade might actually be Pandora in a spare Mukade suit that she stole when she fled Meta. Even having their differences, perhaps they have to depend on each other in Oni 2, especially if they are cast out of Phoenix.
220	here	guido	Art	Will try to upload his art to wiki.
221	here	geyser	Story	Points out that, according to one interpretation of the Pandora myth, hope was an evil, a self-delusion, because it meant trying to bring about a positive future, when in fact none of us can control the future.
222	here	geyser	Art	Posts drawing of mech that Mai could pilot at some point. Discusses Gunnm as a reference for an Oni 2, especially because the emphasis is on martial arts more than GitS, where guns are the primary weapon of choice. Also mentions Armitage. Finds the idea of a woman becoming less human to be a more unique angle for a character than all these properties with female androids becoming more human. Points to Alita's "rides" - a one-wheeled bike and her Rollerball gear.
223	here	guido	Art/Story	Posts some art [links now broken]. Sees Meta less as a global government and more as a "contingency alliance between present stakeholders and interested individuals". Meta then interacts with the Syndicate and the WCG/TCTF. We should keep in mind that Konoko really meant to kill Mukade, whether or not she succeeded. Does want to bring back Mukade, but not as world ruler, but more in the role of someone associated mysteriously with Hasegawa. He's the kind of person who follows orders, and perhaps teaches Mai about her Daodan, to obtain some satisfaction from sharing his knowledge with a fellow member of a small group. But doesn't see Mukade as a "leading character".
224	here	guido	Art/Story	Griffin and Kerr and Muro all served their purpose in Oni 1. Griffin and Kerr started out Konoko on her path of self-discovery; their role is done. Muro was "simply the symbol of what Mai shouldn't ever be". We need new characters for the next stage of the story. As geyser said, there are too many new female characters, so he will try to do something about that. Posts drawing of Mr. Big in a fight, asking Mai for help.
225	here	guido	Art	Posts drawing of unnamed character speaking with Mr. Big. References Blame! as an Oni 2 reference.
226	here	geyser	Art	Critiques Guido's art, discusses his plans for his own art. Griffin's relative needn't be female. Pandora will be, and Hikari; sees interesting parallel to the Daodan process in the idea of continually upgrading Hikari. The "old man" and Meta leaders will be male. Wants to bring back Muro as well, not in the flesh, but in Mai's mind. He haunts her because of their relationship in Oni 1, perhaps confronting her, or challenging her philosophically. Since he's not real, he only knows what Mai (or the Daodan) knows. Perhaps his image is actually being used by the Daodan to communicate with Mai. He also may serve as a teacher for Mai in a training environment; since he's not real, his abilities can increase over time, to a fantastical degree, to prepare her for upcoming challenges. He can also represent, as Guido pointed out, what Mai could still become, if she follows the wrong path. So his presence in her head can paint a picture of the struggle that Mai faces, and the balance between human and the inhuman inside her. Mai can become quite familiar with this mental Muro, whereas Mukade will remain distant. This allows for ambiguity about who he really is. Although he may also serve as a sensei to Mai, he doesn't know the whole picture; he has to learn from Mai, as well. (An alternate approach: What if Mukade didn't learn about the Daodan from Hasegawa, but the other way around?). Mukade may not identify anymore with who he used to be, leading to enigmatic conversations with Mai that only slowly reveal the truth. Why is Mukade using a rifle in that art? He was already able to teleport and fire energy balls in Oni 1; imagine what he can do after his near-death experience makes him even stronger. Re: Blame!, questions how dark Oni 2 should be. Wants variety in tone, not a dark monotony like Max Payne. Doesn't like Guido's weaker version of Meta. It leaves out Mukade's struggles as leader of the world. And who rules the world then? Doesn't see a place for conventional corporations in the world of Oni 2, just Meta and the rebellion. Groups like the TCTF would be absorbed into those two sides. Names from Oni 1 like "TCTF" and "Syndicate" would now be obsolete. A new third party is fine, but Meta needs to be the centralized gov't in control. "No politics. No corporations. The state is the law. The state is the industry." Mentions web site made by war gamers which has interesting weapon concepts.
227	here	Your_Mom	Story	Likes idea of Head Muro -- "What she learns, she already knows, it is just that her human mind has yet to accept the fact that she does." Perhaps one of Mukade's new abilities is creating clones of himself? Geyser's mention of "irrational hatred extended to anything related to the Daodan process" reminds him of extremists/terrorists, like in Gundam SEED.
228	here	guido	Art	Posts re-drawn group fight with Mr. Big [link broken].
229	here	mackan	Project	Asks if this is just a hobby or if they are connected to Bungie.
230	here	geyser	Project	"Do we look like Bungie?" Critiques re-drawn art of Mr. Big (he's still not big enough). Making clones of Mukade is way too similar a concept to Jango Fett in Star Wars prequels. Plus, Daodan-powered clones would be too unpredictable; Mukade needs to maintain control. Does like the idea of doubles for Mukade, however; soldiers who appear to be him, but lacking the mental connection that Mai sensed in the original. Agrees that the line between rebels/guerilla fighters and terrorists can become hazy; perhaps something to explore in Oni 2. Phoenix may have to kill people to keep them quiet when they operate clandestinely; this may lead to a crisis of conscience for Mai where she has to disobey orders. Wants to introduce Hikari in a chase sequence like Rooftops, but faster, where Mai pursues her while dodging Meta patrols. Advantage of his plans for Meta/Syndicate is that it's a simple picture of the world which we can present to the player at the start of the game; later we can reveal that not all is as it seems, or introduce new factions, but the initial setting will be easy to understand.