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Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions
Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events (view source)
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:::::::::::::::::Off-road commuting for hundreds of miles has to be the worst job ever, indeed. Your point is clear, and I don't think there is any radical disagreement here (if anything, I said there's some welcome food for thought). However, like for the airborne spreading, it all boils down to quantitative considerations VS qualitative ones. I am a scientist at heart and by trade, so yeah, I tend to: a) read that kind of stuff literally; b) favor basic logic and math over figures of speech. On the face of it, the manual says that there are people living at the edge of atmospheric-processed areas, with "dead air and foul water" right next door: settle any further out, and the toxic air/water will start causing gruesome diseases and birth defects (that's just what the "edge of the habitable zone" is, by definition). Seen that way, it makes total sense for the "reclamation teams" to be hard at work right outside the shantytowns, "beating back" the limits of their ''own'' habitat (as well as helping to preserve the air quality in an ACC's "main area of effect"). That said, if the actual source of the contamination is identified as being located far outside the city limits, rather than adjacent to the slums, then indeed it makes sense to have "commuters" who wander towards the Wilderness Preserves and stamp out whatever is causing the toxicity to spread (although I am not sure the term "reclamation teams" would be fitting for this kind of task -- they'd be more like "excisors", "surgeons", "foresters" or, yes, "stalkers"). My key point, if I may reiterate it, is that, if this latter "stalking" occupation is even more precarious than that of the reclamation teams (the ones that merely decontaminate the areas around the slums that they live in), then -- as I already said -- this supposed WPTF comes across as much more humble than the dignified TCTF (despite a supposedly comparable importance of the two initiatives), and it may not fit in too well with the idea that there's this big high-level conspiracy surrounding the Wilderness. It can work, but it will require some new statements: about the WCG's penal system, about the not-so-free circulation of people or information between the inner cities and the slums, etc. If, on the other hand, the Wilderness expands only marginally (vegetative reproduction?), and there is no need for daily monitoring by a "WPTF" (precarious or otherwise), then the sentence from the manual is just about "reclamation teams" that are decontaminating areas right outside the slums, and that's it. It can work either way, and I don't feel like I'm closing any doors at this point. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 17:09, 28 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::::::Off-road commuting for hundreds of miles has to be the worst job ever, indeed. Your point is clear, and I don't think there is any radical disagreement here (if anything, I said there's some welcome food for thought). However, like for the airborne spreading, it all boils down to quantitative considerations VS qualitative ones. I am a scientist at heart and by trade, so yeah, I tend to: a) read that kind of stuff literally; b) favor basic logic and math over figures of speech. On the face of it, the manual says that there are people living at the edge of atmospheric-processed areas, with "dead air and foul water" right next door: settle any further out, and the toxic air/water will start causing gruesome diseases and birth defects (that's just what the "edge of the habitable zone" is, by definition). Seen that way, it makes total sense for the "reclamation teams" to be hard at work right outside the shantytowns, "beating back" the limits of their ''own'' habitat (as well as helping to preserve the air quality in an ACC's "main area of effect"). That said, if the actual source of the contamination is identified as being located far outside the city limits, rather than adjacent to the slums, then indeed it makes sense to have "commuters" who wander towards the Wilderness Preserves and stamp out whatever is causing the toxicity to spread (although I am not sure the term "reclamation teams" would be fitting for this kind of task -- they'd be more like "excisors", "surgeons", "foresters" or, yes, "stalkers"). My key point, if I may reiterate it, is that, if this latter "stalking" occupation is even more precarious than that of the reclamation teams (the ones that merely decontaminate the areas around the slums that they live in), then -- as I already said -- this supposed WPTF comes across as much more humble than the dignified TCTF (despite a supposedly comparable importance of the two initiatives), and it may not fit in too well with the idea that there's this big high-level conspiracy surrounding the Wilderness. It can work, but it will require some new statements: about the WCG's penal system, about the not-so-free circulation of people or information between the inner cities and the slums, etc. If, on the other hand, the Wilderness expands only marginally (vegetative reproduction?), and there is no need for daily monitoring by a "WPTF" (precarious or otherwise), then the sentence from the manual is just about "reclamation teams" that are decontaminating areas right outside the slums, and that's it. It can work either way, and I don't feel like I'm closing any doors at this point. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 17:09, 28 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::::::There is room for this alternative suggestion, I'll admit. It could be that, rather than the world being mostly Earthlike and only alien/hostile in patches designated as Preserves, the world could be mostly hostile outside of the cities, with only a few manmade oases that are inhabitable. In that case, yes, the poor would be the front-line soldiers, with the accompanying risk, in the battle against the encroaching Wilderness. This does not feel compatible, however, with the picture that Oni paints when it talks about Preserves that people are kept out of. Most significantly, ''Oni's cities are not domed''. The standard sci-fi trope of walled-in cities is not present here, as shown by the sky(boxes) above Konoko and the fact that the poor are able to get some benefit by being near the ACCs while outside the cities. If the Wilderness was all around the unwalled cities, it would not only be obvious to the citizens (as you pointed out), but running the ACCs without a dome would be as stupid as running your AC without walls on your house. Gonna take a while to cool the whole world down…. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:20, 28 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::::::There is room for this alternative suggestion, I'll admit. It could be that, rather than the world being mostly Earthlike and only alien/hostile in patches designated as Preserves, the world could be mostly hostile outside of the cities, with only a few manmade oases that are inhabitable. In that case, yes, the poor would be the front-line soldiers, with the accompanying risk, in the battle against the encroaching Wilderness. This does not feel compatible, however, with the picture that Oni paints when it talks about Preserves that people are kept out of. Most significantly, ''Oni's cities are not domed''. The standard sci-fi trope of walled-in cities is not present here, as shown by the sky(boxes) above Konoko and the fact that the poor are able to get some benefit by being near the ACCs while outside the cities. If the Wilderness was all around the unwalled cities, it would not only be obvious to the citizens (as you pointed out), but running the ACCs without a dome would be as stupid as running your AC without walls on your house. Gonna take a while to cool the whole world down…. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:20, 28 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::::::::See, that's why I hate the manual. It reminds us how stupid Oni can be ^_^ Seriously, though, there doesn't need to be a contradiction here. Is it clean oases in a toxic desert or vice-versa? The correct answer is: neither. There are areas of lethal toxicity (WPs), areas of inhabitable cleanliness (ACCs), and everywhere else there is a map with various degrees of toxicity (places where you wouldn't settle and raise children, but where you wouldn't instantly die the way Jamie did, either). Also, that "toxicity map" has probably been evolving over the decades (in 2014 the WCG only needed to keep people out of WPs, but by 2032 the trend may have shifted to keeping people ''in'' the cities instead). So in the end it's "up to us" how much of the manual we'd end up referencing, and to what part of Oni's history (and geography) we'd attribute it. As for an ACC's efficiency without a dome -- well, that's the elephant in the room, isn't it? I like to think that the ACCs really made a difference in the months/years that followed the Great Uprising (and that's how the WCG folks were able to sell their authority to the masses -- as effective crisis managers). But at the time of Oni's events the ACCs mostly looks like monuments to the WCG's proud past, barely able to keep up with the amplitude of the BioCrisis (and an easy target for Muro, too). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 04:26, 29 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::::::::See, that's why I hate the manual. It reminds us how stupid Oni can be ^_^ Seriously, though, there doesn't need to be a contradiction here. Is it clean oases in a toxic desert or vice-versa? The correct answer is: neither. There are areas of lethal toxicity (WPs), areas of inhabitable cleanliness (ACCs), and everywhere else there is a map with various degrees of toxicity (places where you wouldn't settle and raise children, but where you wouldn't instantly die the way Jamie did, either). Also, that "toxicity map" has probably been evolving over the decades (in 2014 the WCG only needed to keep people out of WPs, but by 2032 the trend may have shifted to keeping people ''in'' the cities instead). So in the end it's "up to us" how much of the manual we'd end up referencing, and to what part of Oni's history (and geography) we'd attribute it. As for an ACC's efficiency without a dome -- well, that's the elephant in the room, isn't it? I like to think that the ACCs really made a difference in the months/years that followed the Great Uprising (and that's how the WCG folks were able to sell their authority to the masses -- as effective crisis managers). But at the time of Oni's events the ACCs mostly looks like monuments to the WCG's proud past, barely able to keep up with the amplitude of the BioCrisis (and an easy target for Muro, too). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 04:26, 29 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::::::::True, it needn't be a black-and-white matter of habitable vs. totally uninhabitable areas. And as far as the ACCs not being able to keep up as well with the pollutants anymore… remember to wear your Hapémask! --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:35, 29 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::It may seem naive of the WCG to think they can contain the Wilderness, but they might know full well that it's a losing battle. They also are taking steps to contain the growing Wilderness, but clearly they're losing since the toxins in the air are increasing, according to Oni. Also, to whatever degree they're wrong about how well they have it contained, that's our way of adding some drama to the story. Finding out that the trophic level of the Wilderness is advancing to herbivores, insectivores, and then carnivores will be an alarming development. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::It may seem naive of the WCG to think they can contain the Wilderness, but they might know full well that it's a losing battle. They also are taking steps to contain the growing Wilderness, but clearly they're losing since the toxins in the air are increasing, according to Oni. Also, to whatever degree they're wrong about how well they have it contained, that's our way of adding some drama to the story. Finding out that the trophic level of the Wilderness is advancing to herbivores, insectivores, and then carnivores will be an alarming development. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::The [[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Secondary_Stage|increasing air toxicity]] is one of the most ambiguous parts of Oni canon. Not only does it involve the infamous "36.18% increase" of Dioxin levels, but it seemingly presents the toxin rise as a consequence of Muro's retrofitting of the ACCs. At no point are the WPs stated as a prominent source of airborne toxins in Oni's world: all we have is "biological contamination" encountered during flyovers, and the uncanny "virus" from Jamie's bush. Of course it doesn't mean that toxins don't emanate from the Contaminated Zones at all, but it doesn't establish the WPs as the planet's "toxic lungs", either. If anything, I'd blame a WCG-era toxin rise (pre-Muro) on imperfect waste processing procedures at the ACCs. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::The [[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Secondary_Stage|increasing air toxicity]] is one of the most ambiguous parts of Oni canon. Not only does it involve the infamous "36.18% increase" of Dioxin levels, but it seemingly presents the toxin rise as a consequence of Muro's retrofitting of the ACCs. At no point are the WPs stated as a prominent source of airborne toxins in Oni's world: all we have is "biological contamination" encountered during flyovers, and the uncanny "virus" from Jamie's bush. Of course it doesn't mean that toxins don't emanate from the Contaminated Zones at all, but it doesn't establish the WPs as the planet's "toxic lungs", either. If anything, I'd blame a WCG-era toxin rise (pre-Muro) on imperfect waste processing procedures at the ACCs. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | ||