Oni2:A Storyline/PostSummary2

Part 2/2 of the post summary of the thread "A storyline for Oni 2" from OCF. The first 15 pages are found HERE.

Out of the questions that arose when I reviewed these posts, the following are currently unanswered:

• Do a ninja's back rods glow when he uses punch_heavy and other moves? (Post #170)
• Where are solar panels in Oni's levels? (Post #190)

A storyline for Oni 2
(unimportant posts = "--")
[my notes in square brackets]

Post #	Post Link	Poster	Keywords	Summary
151	here	guido	Art, Mukade, Mai	Explains that Konoko's smile doesn't mean she is happy to be with Mukade. She could be contemplating the irony, or perhaps it's her Chrysalis that is happy, resonating with Mukade's. Didn't spend much time conceptualizing bike, just wanted a "small assault vehicle". Posts a rough sketch, link is broken now [I suspect this is the pic I linked to in post #142's summary].
152	here	geyser	Vehicles, Mukade, Mai, Daodan	Thinks firing weapons sideways off that bike is a bad idea, but it would work on the bike he imagines for Mai. As far as fast assault vehicles go, that was what he envisioned for Mr. Big's Humvee. Still doesn't think Mai would trust Mukade. "Teaming up with Mukade would be a living nightmare for Mai" because he would re-awaken bad memories for her. But in theory there's no reason two Daodan hosts couldn't work together; perhaps that's even the "grand design". Points out that, eventually, there is no "Daodan host" anymore, only a new being composed of Daodan cells. But their memories of being human should mean some mental conflict.
153	here	Your_Mom	Mukade, Mai, Themes	Perhaps it's a good thing if meeting Mukade re-awakens her memories. Perhaps her view of Mukade changes when she learns something about him (e.g., "Dad?"). Or he forgives her when she didn't think she deserved it, and this touches her heart. We could even have Mukade betray her after earning her trust. Can lead to psychological conflict for Mai. Perhaps her inner conflict leads her to be unable to save Mukade in a "Kerr takes mercury bow shot for Mai" kind of way, which gives us the element of tragedy. Or perhaps she only learns he was her father after he dies. Thinks that Mai and Mukade could work together and put the past behind them if they wanted.
154	here	geyser	Art, Vehicles	Posts pic assembled from various sources to illustrate Konoko's "metabike".
155	here	Your_Mom	Art, Vehicles, Ninjas	Wheels mounted to Mai's feet make sense as a fast way to travel without the bulk of a vehicle. Could wheels fold up or be used as a shield? What are those rods on ninjas' backs for? Perhaps they're plasma swords?
156	here	geyser	Ninjas	Points to Dark Horse's take on the ninja rods, but he doesn't think much of it. [Here's the real answer, per the guy who put the rods there, with a link to the Dark Horse comic's idea.]
157	here	geyser	Mukade, Daodan	Mukade talked about becoming something and how Mai should surrender to it. But he speaks of it happening in the future, so either he hasn't made the change himself yet, or he can resist it to some degree. So yes, Mai still needs to act as a human being in order to have a playable game, but there's no "peaceful coexistence" possible for Daodan hosts.
158	here	Seventeen Seconds	Mukade	Perhaps the ninja rods are "blood-scrubbers that hyper-oxygenate the bloodstream and remove lactic acid so they can run down Konoko." Points out Hardy's statement about Mukade and Mai acting towards each other as "super predators", not as dad and daughter. Mukade shouldn't be brought back because his killing showed Mai crossing an important moral boundary. If he is explored, he shouldn't be made to be Konoko's dad, in order to develop Mukade as his own character and keep separate the question of why Hasegawa abandoned his family. He would be an awkward fit in an Oni 2 story and would tend to hijack the plot towards himself. There are other ways for him to appear in the story without actually being revived. Suggests to guido that they try to illustrate the Oni 2 story he has on paper [this would become the Wasteland Flowers project].
159	here	geyser	Project, Gameplay	Planned to start working on some Oni 2 material by Christmas. "Amnesia is not just a plot trick", it will allow us to give the game a natural-feeling introduction and learning curve. And characters like Mukade from Oni 1 won't be the same as before. We can draw new connections between them.
160	here	guido	Project	Welcomes working with 17sec, but feels that an Oni 2 story belongs to the community and shouldn't be told by just one or two people. So it's valuable to have these discussions on the forum. Also, the story can't be planned from just a top-down direction, or bottom-up, but we need to slowly work at it from all angles.
161	here	guido	Mai, Daodan	Konoko didn't want to see everyone be implanted with Chrysalises, so instead she blew up the ACCs. She knew the danger the world would be in if everyone survived by having Chrysalises implanted. Agrees that amnesia is a good way to build a plot and show Mai's quest for an identity. Perhaps Imago stage is actually something "transient", temporary and unstable. A butterfly does not live as long as its larval form does, and is very delicate. When the Daodan finishes consuming and replacing the host cells, what will satiate it? It may consume itself in the end, but leave behind a "seed", a "regenerated host" which is improved, sans Daodan. Perhaps the Mai that awakes with no memories years after Oni 1 is the regenerated seed of the original Mai. We should strike a balance between the cliche of bringing everyone back and creating a totally new villain with some newly-invented connection to Oni 1.
162	here	geyser	META, Mai, Mukade, Hasegawa, Kerr, Hikari, Shinatama, Barabas, Daodan, Themes	Introduces notion of META, a "technological mega-consortium run by the Syndicate++ state. It makes everything from weapons to vehicles to droids/SLDs/mechas/cyborgs(/Daodans?)". It's essentially the source of all technological innovation in the world. Questions how guido's notion of Konoko's motivation in blowing up the ACCs jives with the outro movie. Konoko had faith in the Daodan, almost blindly, thinking that it could be given to all the people. Perhaps this was additionally due to mental alienation caused by her Daodan Chrysalis. Agrees that giving everyone Chrysalises would practically lead to Armageddon, with Mutant Muros all over the place. Although perhaps that conflict is part of the "grand design", but that kind of climax couldn't happen until about halfway through Oni 3. But his explanation of Konoko's decision is that she wasn't "herself". Having to deal with that realization is what would lead to her trance and amnesia, as it wouldn't be possible to kill oneself as a Daodan host. But his version of the story does have this point in common with guido's, that she "dies" after Oni 1. The will of her human mind to remain human disrupts the Daodan's evolution and they both collapse into inactivity. The story of Oni 2 would be both Konoko regaining her mind, and the Daodan regaining its "mind", its programming to evolve its host. Whichever regains its strength first will win. If both regain strength and come into conflict again, the cycle will repeat (perhaps in Oni 3!). The solution might be learning to communicate with this "other mind". The other characters returning from Oni 1 might be able to help. Muro is an example of what happens when one gives in to the Daodan and loses one's own mind. But because Mai and Mukade are still resisting mentally, they can't achieve Imago. Agrees that we don't want to introduce a totally new villain with no connection to Oni 1's story. Wants to bring back Shinatama, who backed herself up (perhaps only partially) before being physically destroyed. Likes owldreamer's concept of Hikari being a resurrected Shinatama. But Shinatama 2 doesn't necessarily help Mai a lot, because at first she's scared of her, and also she doesn't know all the answers herself, pertaining to the Daodan and Mai's fate. Kerr did not survive Oni 1, but he could have left recordings with valuable information, perhaps anticipating some events in Oni 2 a la Hari Seldon [who predicts the future using mathematics in Asimov's "Foundation" novels]. Shinatama 2 might discover these recordings and selectively share them with Mai over time. Barabas could return, but in a non-notable role where he's hardly even recognizable -- just something for players of Oni 1 to catch. Repeats his doubts about the Hasegawa story: it was on a CD dropped by Mukade; he did all that research in just months [as mentioned in the summary of post #18, Hasegawa had up to 3 years]; and years later, at the time of Oni, there still isn't a "pending environmental crisis" [ actually... ]. Thinks that Hasegawa was being tampered with in order to start the project and make such quick advancement (and this tampering may also involve Jamie's death); later on, he must have realized he was being influenced. He eventually implanted a Chrysalis in himself, before or after Muro, either to be able to understand what Muro would face, or to be able to watch over him if he doubted Muro's goodness, or to investigate the Daodan's mission himself. He knew to expect a battle of wills and was able to stay human, perhaps even achieving communication with his Chrysalis. Doesn't accept that Hasegawa and Kerr simply thought of the Daodan as a great cure for polluted air; they must have understood the deeper, darker implications. Perhaps Imagoes do consume themselves and Muro would have died soon after fighting Mai anyway. That would make the ones who resist full Imago, like Mai and Mukade, the strong ones. As long as they hold on to their humanity, they continue to get some of the benefits of the Daodan, but will remain vulnerable, unlike an Imago. That might be the only possibility for stability in a Daodan host. Perhaps the "grand design" behind the Daodan is actually to select these stronger-willed people, in order to face some danger or challenge. Only those "survivors" will be able to communicate with the beings guiding the Daodan; although that might be the subject of Oni 3.
163	here	TNT	Shinatama, Kerr, Daodan, Gameplay	"Don't give Shinatama amnesia", will make story too corny if everyone is running around with amnesia. Although she might have kept regular backups of her mind, she still would probably not have a record of anything that happened after her kidnapping or other later events, so that in and of itself can explain her lack of total knowledge. Thinks that bringing Kerr back in recordings is too reminiscent of Dr. Light in Megaman X; limit him to a flashback or diary entries. Wants to stay close to interpretation of Jamie's death as mercy kill, rather than conflicting with the story we were given in Oni 1. Thinks that, if Muro became an Imago because he gave in to the Daodan, then Mai did as well; she jumped into that acid vat; she trusted in the Chrysalis to help her defeat Muro. Perhaps hypos sedate the human consciousness somewhat, and that's what allows the Daodan to overpower them. Questions the meaning of the word "perfect" in relation to the Imago. Doesn't "perfect" mean being able to adapt to changing situations, not being unable to adapt? So the Imago has no reason to self-destruct just because it finishes adapting to a certain situation; it would remain able to keep adapting. Could first level of Oni 2 be a dream level where Konoko is seeing parts of the events of Oni 1? Might make a good training level.
164	here	geyser	Themes, Mai, Hikari	Suggests the message of Oni 2 be: "Our strength lies in our imperfection. So does our inner beauty. Imperfection is key. Imperfection is what provides a dynamic aspect to our existence. Imperfection is our true essence." Interprets Kerr's and Mukade's words to Konoko to mean that she should resist the transformation. The true expression of a weak-willed person's nature is to give in to the Daodan and become an Imago, but those who resist, like Konoko, are the ones who are "beautiful" and "strong" in their imperfection and weakness. Compares falling in love as an act of giving up oneself to Mai's need to hold onto herself; she is always falling in love, but never fallen. Perhaps Mai ends up fighting Hikari because she thinks Hikari's hiding something from her.
165	here	geyser	Shinatama, Kerr, Mai, Daodan, Gameplay	TNT's point about why Shinatama has amnesia is exactly what he was getting at. And if she remains in digital form, she might be emotionally distant from Mai. And he had the same basic plan for bringing back Kerr, through diary entries and the like. But Mai can still "talk" to Kerr and others from Oni 1, in dream levels. Is okay with leaving Jamie's mercy kill at face value. But Mai is not completely trusting in the Daodan when she dives into the acid vat, and she's definitely not an Imago by the end of Oni. Likes point about hypo allowing Daodan to be more dominant; shows the danger of taking too many hypos. The Daodan is perfect in that it can adapt to anything, but its mind is still replacing the host's mind and becoming something more like an animal's mind. And anyway, the word "perfect" doesn't have any clear absolute meaning, we have to define it within a certain context ourselves. Better to use the cave as a training level; there will be a nightmare intro before that, but it will work better as a cinematic.
166	here	guido	Mai, Mukade, Daodan, Themes, META	Suggests that Mai and Mukade will have to learn that the Daodan is not the final answer, and overcome their fears so they don't lose themselves [I'm not totally sure I follow what guido is saying here]. Mai will need to learn to trust her father and/or someone else, and learn from Mukade. Interprets Mai's line "The Chrysalis will change us all" to refer to the changes she and Muro have brought about; the question is whether a new seed can be planted in this soil of chaos. Her "father's work" refers to something like a figurative change in humankind's perspective, not to giving everyone the Daodan [again, I feel like I'm translating a language I don't know here, this is a really difficult post for me]. A failed Imago such as Mai is like someone who refuses to grow up. But a failed Imago will still age, so 20 years is too long. He doesn't see Mai sleeping in some kind of suspended animation. Let's make it more like 7 years. The story could have three phases: Konoko struggling for control over her Chrysalis; then deciding to become an Imago to save the world; in the climax, we are introduced to the Seed, "and new horizons will arise". Likes idea of Meta Industries. They think that technology is the answer to all their problems. "In some sense Meta Industries are repeating the same errors from the past, and someone would have to change it." But he doesn't see Meta tech as being refined and elegant; they are always rushing to move to the next level, so their machines are built hastily. They also need to appear rarely, and be somewhat unstable, maybe dangerous to use, albeit capable of amazing things. Likens to concept of "If I had a Trow..." in Myth.
167	here	geyser	META, Hikari, Shinatama, Mai, Mukade, Daodan, Vehicles, Phoenix, Themes	Questions why Meta tech can't be refined and elegant. And what threats is Meta responding to? Perhaps they seem to be doing it for their own reasons, not in response to a known threat. Implies that Mukade is the head inventor. As the devices are the product of an unearthly intelligence, they should be "wrong" somehow, beyond normal human understanding. And the Metabike is something that a normal human would not be agile enough to use, plus you have no body protection as you speed along. "The disturbing thing about it (as it will be for most other Meta-stuff) is that it's simply not meant for human operators." Agrees that Meta tech should be rare, but they can also have multiple variations on the same device, and vary them randomly like Oni does with ONCC body sizes. Doesn't agree with guido's interpretation of the outro monologue, as Konoko still made the choice to blow up the ACCs; did she do that out of fear of the Daodan or out of hope in it? Reiterates point about cause of Mai's amnesia; if she'd known from the start what the Daodan was, the struggle with it wouldn't have been too bad, but she only realized when it was almost too late to retain her faculties. Perhaps she is trapped in her own mind by the Daodan, which would allow for levels like the movie "The Cube". The Daodan is trying to track her down in her own mind, kind of like Agent Smith and Neo in the Matrix. She has to become even fitter mentally in order to continue to resist the Daodan's increasingly smart attacks. With regards to fear, Mai needs to learn to not be afraid of the Daodan, in order to cope with it. She can learn from Mukade, who is more experienced. Together they can walk a path perpendicular to the one the Daodan wants to evolve in, and find a new way. Dislikes idea of Mai deciding to give in to Imago, as this means alienation for the player. How can we even write a story around an alien intelligence? "The whole purpose of the Daodan may be to face strong minds with the threat of disappearing completely, and maintain that threat in order to make the human mind achieve a greater knowledge and control of itself as well as of the Daodan entity, develop at a whole new level (telepathy etc) while retaining its very essence. Ultimately, the human mind gets so strong that its strength and that of the Daodan are perfectly matched, and it's some kind of peaceful coexistence then." Seven years is not long enough to let Griffin be dead without having to specify how he died [Cf. Oni's forked ending], and to let the Cataclysm's effects die down. If it's too soon after the Cataclysm, people will be more likely to simply lynch Konoko. Reiterates idea of Mai joining a Rebellion, which allows for lots of individuals with separate motivations. When it's revealed who Mai is, they each have to take a stand on what to do about her. Similar to Oni 1, Mai would start off as a "clueless pawn" and gradually realize the truth. Shinatama/Hikari may have trouble understanding the new Mai, making their new relationship more complex. Disagrees that the host or the Daodan has to win; "as in the case of war, there is then no victor to speak of. True victory means ceasefire, compromise, cooperation, peace." We can show that the human spirit is strong even if the flesh is weak. This can mean an interesting reversal of Oni 1, where Konoko as a host is being invaded by the Daodan; this time she's mentally invading the Daodan that has replaced her cells.
168	here	geyser	Vehicles, Mukade, Mai, Ninjas, Themes	The Meta bike's wheels will be easily removable, but they will slow you down if you want to carry them. You can use them to attack enemies with kicks or jumps. Once they exhaust their limited energy, you can throw them at opponents like with an empty weapon. Reiterates that Mukade will be "king of the world", although he won't go by "Mukade". He may have doubles everywhere, so Mai goes into META to investigate who is really behind things. She and Mukade sense each other, and it begins to bring back memories for her; Mukade begins investigating who she is. Thinks Oni 1's ninjas are robots or SLDs. Rods on their backs may be grenades or some kind of jump boosters. [See post #156 summary for real answer.] Perhaps ninjas are based on Mukade's brain engrams. Mukade's spikes are for defense, maybe electrified. Bottom one retracts so he can sit on a vehicle. Perhaps ninjas self-destruct to keep their secret. Discounts Hardy's explanation of Mai and Mukade as "super predators" [despite the fact that Hardy wrote the story...]. Why doesn't she sense Muro then? Hasegawa doesn't "abandon" his family [responding to post #158], he is abducted by Syndicate. Then "the logical step is not to run away, but to become the true master of the situation." Yes, "killing" Mukade was an important moment in Oni 1, but not in the sense of removing Konoko's innocence (she goes through the whole game killing dudes!), but rather in a more Oedipal, Greek tragedy kind of way. There's still the possibility of redemption and forgiveness by Mukade.
169	here	geyser	Project	Asks 17sec about his "trailer work", and if he's done any animations for his Iron Demon model so geyser can use it in his upcoming Oni 2 work.
170	here	Your_Mom	Gameplay, Ninjas, Vehicles	Wasn't geyser against "primitive weapons" like katanas [which Mai is holding in geyser's Meta bike concept art]? Attacking with swords would mean blood spraying all over the place in a fight. Wonders if ninjas could be aliens, which would also explain their masks and wide-set eyes. The back rods are probably batteries, which power their moves, because there is an electricity effect on their moves, and their back glows during some attacks such as punch_heavy [is this true?]. Suggests that Metabike wheels could be used as shields, or even still used like rollerblades once powerless; they would still save energy over running on foot.
171	here	geyser	Ninjas, Weapons, Vehicles	He is against primitive weapons, it was just a sample image. Doesn't think bulky masks make sense for ninjas; what's the point of even masking their voices when they're supposed to be silent? They might be experimental SLDs made by Mukade. Maybe the masks are just to create a sense of "group psychology". Likes Your_Mom's idea about backpacks -- if they are cyborgs, then the backpack might even contain a confined Daodan biomass as a booster. Doesn't want to keep Metabike around as a shield or "rollerblades" when it's run out of gas, as it would weigh down Mai, and we want the player to discard the Bike when it's an encumbrance.
172	here	Seventeen Seconds	Project	Tells guido that he has a script that he would love to work with him on for a graphic novel. He has tried to keep community's wishes and developers' intent in mind when writing it, and will post a rough draft when it's ready.
173	here	owldreamer	Art	Posts a new render of Hikari.
174	here	geyser	--	--
175	here	Your_Mom	Ninjas, Vehicles	Obscuring their voices would make sense if the ninjas sometimes appear in public in plainclothes to track someone, or to infiltrate a group. Agrees that ninjas don't have to be aliens, likes SLD idea better. Metabike would not weight down Mai as a shield because the motors would stay attached to her legs or get thrown away; the remaining wheel is much lighter. Agrees that it would be more difficult for Mai to move, and she could be knocked down more easily.
176	here	guido	Project, Art	Asks to see 17sec's story. Posts another broken art link [apparently this one].
177	here	owldreamer	Art	Likes guido's sketch, but what is he doing to Hikari?! Is optimizing Hikari's 3D model.
178	here	Your_Mom	Art	Doesn't think it's Hikari, just an incomplete SLD.
179	here	geyser	Art	Doesn't think it's Hikari either. Points to Strident as something akin to Oni 2. Wants to have Metabike talk in another thread.
180	here	guido	Mai, Mukade, Daodan, Society, Themes	Replying to geyser's post [#167] taking issue with guido's figurative interpretation of Konoko's outro monologue. We don't know how much time has passed, so Konoko could have had the time to reflect on the situation. She sees the results of her action and feels sympathy and guilt. Since a person taking action on a large scale is bound to bring about not just their good intentions, but much damage as well, Mai is stating that the Chrysalises have changed humanity in that Daodan hosts have brought an end to the old world through their aggressiveness. Reiterates his notion that the Daodan inside a host leads to a permanent state of struggle in Mai and Mukade, who don't give in to the "oblivion", and become stronger as a result. This realization could take place during the time of Oni 2. Likens process to a flower becoming a fruit; one thing of beauty is replaced by something else. The Daodan host can't exactly control the process, but they can choose a path to go down. Lastly, the large changes brought about in Oni, and the world problems that have been brought to light, are likely to lead to large countermeasures. The resulting state of emergency, or martial law, could be seen as an analogue to Mai's mental resistance to the changing force of the Daodan.
181	here	guido	Art	Posts more Hikari art (broken link).
182	here	guido	Art	Posts more Hikari art (broken link).
183	here	owldreamer	Art	Likes guido's art. Wonders what kind of clothes Hikari should wear.
184	here	geyser	Daodan, Themes, Hasegawa	Agrees with analogy between Mai's state of mind and the state of the populace, but does guido intend to say that the people should just give in to their destiny of being ruled by a "dehumanizing government"? Doesn't see a Daodan host as changing into some final form. The change is ongoing and never ends -- "constant evolution towards nothing in particular". Thinks that the interesting part of the premise is that it never ends. Also, the Daodan and Mai could be seen as improving each other cooperatively (the Daodan brings the physical component and Mai brings the mind), rather than being at war. Doesn't think that we should expect Mai et al. to accept some mysterious "destiny" and allow themselves to transform into something that may turn out to be "evil incarnate" or simply a tool in some larger plan. Points out that guido's ironic interpretation of Konoko's outro speech makes the line about "salvation" particularly hard to understand. Questions whether anyone even had an optimistic view of how the Chrysalis would be used, besides Hasegawa. And why would Hasegawa try to treat the symptoms of the problem using the Chrysalis instead of fighting the pollution? Disagrees with guido's interpretation meaning that any real societal issues were "revealed" by Konoko blowing up the ACCs. Her actions don't somehow prove the WCG to be in the wrong. Rather, people are now desperately trying to survive somehow in a polluted world, due to an action one person took impulsively. Perhaps the Daodan does have deeper meaning as part of some ET plan, but that would be a subject for another sequel after Oni 2.
185	here	caddy	Daodan, Mai, Pollution	Suggests that if a race of immaterial beings needed host bodies in order to survive, then perhaps they are behind the pollution that is encroaching on civilization. The Daodan could be the means by which they inhabit a body, and in order to promote its use, they have created the current ecological crisis. However, they may not have anticipated that the material beings would invent ACCs to tame the pollution. Thus, they had to influence Konoko to blow them up.
186	here	Your_Mom	Mai, Hasegawa, Themes, Daodan	Thinks Konoko was foolish not to destroy the dish instead of destroying the ACCs. Hasegawa knew that the Chrysalis was needed because he saw that the ACCs were not going to solve the problem. The problem was not going to go away, and in fact was getting worse. The world's reliance on ACCs was bad precisely because it was a weak point for someone like Muro to attack. Disagrees with entire idea of having a higher intelligence planning things from behind the scenes. Disagrees with idea of never-ending evolution of the Daodan host; Kerr said "Whatever your final form...". Thinks that Kerr was telling the truth about this final form being an expression of one's true nature. We simply have to look at Muro for an example of this; he was evil, so he became monstrous in form. That was his final form. Nowhere does the game indicate that the Daodan is going to take away one's humanity, but rather the host's mind influences the way that the host's body turns out.
187	here	geyser	Daodan, Mai, Kerr, Pollution	Agrees that caddy's idea is one possible interpretation of the Daodan not being so benevolent. At the very least this idea can be used as a sort of red herring while Mai and others are trying to figure out what is really going on. Perhaps Mai even wonders if she was being influenced to blow the ACCs (which may or may not be true). Perhaps guido's "benevolent intentions" idea can also be floated as a possibility for the player and for Mai as she investigates. Reiterates that the idea of giving everyone Chrysalises, which Konoko seems to support, is a really bad idea considering how Muro turned out. Reiterates that Kerr didn't know anything about how the Chrysalis experiment would turn out. ACCs were working perfectly well at keeping pollution at bay two decades after Hasegawa was saying the sky was falling. People could walk around freely without masks, etc.
188	here	geyser	Settings	Likes idea in guido's art of Mai fighting SLDs as they come off an assembly line. Not sure that they should be able to be manufactured so quickly, though. Perhaps the finished SLDs are put on ice, but Konoko's intrusion causes them to be thawed out and attack her. Perhaps she even encounters Barabas++ in one cryo-chamber.
189	here	Your_Mom	Hasegawa, Kerr, Pollution	Disagrees that Kerr was ignorant about the Daodan. He knew there would be a transformation into a final form, didn't he? And that's what happened with Muro. Why wouldn't scientists like Hasegawa and Kerr have tested the Chrysalis first, as a prototype, before making Mai's and Muro's Chrysalises? After all, they designed it to save the human race. And geyser hasn't addressed the fact that if an ACC shut down, people would start dying. The pollution is very visible in the sky in some levels. And Red Strikers do wear gas masks [and has everyone forgotten about Hapécat?!?]. And why are there so few people out and about?
190	here	geyser	Pollution, Daodan, Hasegawa	Does not see pollution in levels' skyboxes. Some levels are at sunset and so the sky is orange in one direction and purple in the other; just like our skies, except that the skyboxes are garish. There's also solar panels [where?], so there can't be too much smog getting in the way of the sun. And some high-level enemies/cops do get masks, but those are part of their full-body armor. Civilians, on the other hand, walk around in casual clothing. Just because Muro became monstrous, that doesn't mean it was a full representation of his true nature. The transformation was hasty and inexact, a caricature. And no one implanted a Chrysalis to save the human race. The Syndicate wanted a human bomb, and Griffin wanted a countermeasure. Does not think that Hasegawa was in his right mind when initiating the Daodan project. After all, if he knew that someone could turn out like Mutant Muro did, then wouldn't a world of Daodan hosts lead to Armageddon? So perhaps he was under some intangible influence. And since they were made to implant the Chrysalises, they probably were not sure yet what would happen. It's strange that Hasegawa thought he could develop the Chrysalis under the Syndicate and not have them take over the project at some point; perhaps he even planned it this way. The reason there's so few people milling about is that thugs are running around with guns, TCTF is closing off the perimeter, etc. Maybe the cities have curfews. Besides which, we know the engine wasn't ready for lots of civilians and cars driving around.
191	here	Your_Mom	Pollution, Hasegawa, Daodan, TCTF	Still thinks that masks on Strikers are significant and thinks skyboxes look unnatural. If there was a curfew, why are there people at the airport? Discounts geyser's statement that the engine was too limited to have more cars and people. Hasegawa might have simply been driven by grief when starting the Daodan project. If Chrysalises weren't originally meant to be implanted, then what were they for? Will TCTF exist in Oni 2?
192	here	geyser	TCTF, Pollution, Hasegawa, Hikari	Agrees that TCTF would no longer be around. Airport level could simply take place before curfew. If those masks are for filtering air, why would only high-level troops have them? And civilians don't seem to need them.... Doesn't think that Hasegawa's grief would allow him to overlook the dangers of the project. The skyboxes are just ugly and garish, that's the only reason for slight differences in color from reality. You aren't even allowed to see a whole sky in Oni's levels, because there's no sun. Reiterates that the engine was too limited to allow for more civilian activity. Suggests that explanations for Hasegawa's actions can be ambiguous; we can have multiple options. If Hikari can change her skin's color, can she wear a "chameleon" skin or some form of phase cloak?
193	here	Your_Mom	Hasegawa, Kerr, Pollution	The skyboxes are actually some of the better textures in the game. There's a lens flare if you look up at where the sun should be. Bungie at least could have made more cars in cutscenes. And not every level is barricaded -- you can run freely around the outside of TCTF HQ. There's not even any traffic lights, let alone traffic! Is unsatisfied with a lack of explanation for Hasegawa's actions; why start a project to save the world using funds from criminals? If he was behaving so irrationally, why did Kerr work with him? Points out that long-term phase cloaking causes cellular damage; this would not be a problem for an SLD!
194	here	geyser	Hikari, Pollution, Kerr, Hasegawa, Mukade, Sturm., Syndicate	SLDs are made from organics too, although Hikari is a more mechanical kind of android. Prefers to stay away from topics like invisible walls in levels and other obvious limitations of the game technology. Re: adding more moving cars, Bungie couldn't even make the Warehouse truck's doors move with the truck. There are solar panels and civilians don't wear masks; that's as much as we need to know to understand that the air isn't heavily polluted, end of story. Hasegawa's connection to the Syndicate was probably not direct enough for Kerr to become aware of the danger. Kerr is rather submissive and naive, too, as seen in Oni, so he simply follows where Hasegawa leads. Questions how anyone knows what really happened to Jamie, as only witness was Hasegawa; why was he carrying a gun, anyway? Maybe that "virus" that was killing Jamie before Hasegawa shot her was just a cover story. Maybe the 'global poisoning' was a fabrication. Either Hasegawa was being manipulated, and really believed the things he wrote and really thought working under the Syndicate was a good idea, or else he had some ulterior motive. Maybe he expected the Syndicate to take over at some point. Maybe the goal was to use the Daodan as leverage to take over the organization. Either he planned to put his children in place at the head of the Syndicate, or else he became cautious because of the danger that Muro represented, and decided to allow him to (seemingly) lead the Syndicate, and use him as a tool. Perhaps Muro's plan to hold the world hostage with the ACCs was given to him by Hasegawa. However, Hasegawa actually engineered improvements to the ACCs that would reverse the damage in months or years. If any Syndicate scientists realized this, Hasegawa/Mukade's ninjas would take care of them. Muro wouldn't have found this out until it was too late, and then as the Syndicate collapsed, Hasegawa could simply have slipped into the shadows. This means that Konoko did everything wrong, incapacitating Mukade (dad) so he couldn't direct the final stages of the process, and blowing up the ACCs instead of allowing Hasegawa's plan to proceed. When Mukade confronted Konoko, he was curious to see if she was developing in a good way or bad, especially after seeing how Muro had turned out. After she took him out and caused things to get much worse, the opposite of what he had planned, he would naturally be resentful and/or afraid of her in Oni 2. Now he has no choice but to re-take control of the Syndicate to deal with the worsening situation, instead of ditching the Syndicate to flounder and die as he had planned. Acknowledges that this series of events makes the Daodan just a pawn in Hasegawa's master plan and may not be the desired direction we want for an Oni 2. But it does explain a lot of Oni's loose threads, doesn't it? It makes out Hasegawa to be brilliant after all, unless the Daodan has actually been controlling him all along.
195	here	Your_Mom	Hasegawa, Mukade, Syndicate	Can agree with most of geyser's hypothesis, but doubts Hasegawa would have needed to be cautious with Muro; if Hasegawa is Mukade, then why couldn't he handle Muro and take leadership of the Syndicate himself? All the better to carry out his plans, then. In any case, Mukade wouldn't have to kill the scientists who were onto his plan, just persuade them to not tell Muro. And if the Syndicate reversed the atmospheric damage, they'd be hailed as heroes. Hasegawa could stay in charge, and perhaps even overthrow the WCG in time, making him President of the World. Questions how Konoko's signal could have destroyed the ACCs. Is against idea that Daodan is somehow masterminding this whole process.
196	here	geyser	Mukade, Hasegawa, Daodan, Ninjas, Syndicate, Muro	Mukade could not simply persuade Muro's men to not tell him, not with ordinary means of persuasion; human nature is not that reliable. But perhaps his Daodan allows him to control minds; that might even be what his spikes are for. The other ninjas' spikes allow him to monitor/control his ninjas, and through them, he can monitor the thoughts of the Syndicate around the world, and "tweak" their minds as necessary if they stumble too close to the truth. It made more sense for Hasegawa to operate in secret; how would he convince the Syndicate that cleaning up the atmosphere was a good idea? Better to convince the Syndicate under Muro to become maniacs working for a cause that they think is criminal. Muro was the charismatic, crazed leader that was needed to push the Syndicate in the desired direction; Hasegawa couldn't have played that role, and he also needed privacy and time to work on his real plan; better to stay in the background as Lead Researcher or Master Ninja or just The Boss's Daddy. But once they fulfill Hasegawa's plan, there would be no more Syndicate because there'd be no work for maniacs trying to pollute the world. Muro also did away with the more sensible, business-minded leaders of the Syndicate, making it that much easier for the organization to topple. And the Syndicate wouldn't have any way to prove that they were the "heroes" that fixed the pollution; the WCG's ACCs did the job, after all. It made more sense in Oni 1 for Hasegawa to use the Syndicate than the WCG because the WCG is too conservative, and it's easier to mislead the Syndicate than to convince the WCG of the problem. In Oni 2, he'll need the Syndicate again because they're in the best position to help him get things done and they're the only ones who will listen to him. However, he'll need to convince them that the ACCs are now needed; that it's better to restore the few that are still around than to just prey on survivors in a wasteland. However, he'll have lots of blood on his hands by this point, and even more when the Syndicate has to fight against rebels in Oni 2. Combined with his weighty responsibility and the Daodan inside him, he may become alienated from humanity. He is stuck in a position where he has no choice but to try to control the Syndicate and limit its violence while fighting the pollution, and there may be no end to his task. When Mai is discovered by the rebels, he gradually becomes aware of her, but decides to let her fight it out, as he does in Oni 1. Eventually he'll reach out to her.... As far as Your_Mom's objection to the "grand design" theory, it can be one possibility that some characters believe in. And there's no denying that something odd is behind the behavior of Hasegawa and Konoko. And Konoko's signal destroyed the ACCs because she sent them parameters that were too high and it "overload[ed] the generators".
197	here	Your_Mom	Hasegawa	Even being known as Boss's Daddy would probably be too close an association. And Hasegawa might reach out to Konoko in order to kill her.
198	here	geyser	Hasegawa, Syndicate, Phoenix	On the contrary, being known as Muro's Dad should make him seem harmless, which will suit his plans. What does it matter to the Syndicate if they're related? And anyway, they will be bound to wonder why Hasegawa has a Chrysalis in him, and how it is that they both joined the organization at the same time. But Hasegawa will eventually have to take control of the Syndicate in Oni 2, reluctantly, to try and rule the world so he can fix things. It will be a great burden for him and he may eventually be unable to tell if he is even doing the right thing. Since he will live forever, he feels the need to guide humanity in a certain direction; the rebels, and Mai, are fighting against that. Agrees that Hasegawa might try to kill Mai, but only if he has a good reason. Will post combat move sketches soon.
199	here	Your_Mom	Themes	Simply thinks that idea of a "grand design" is clichéd and boring.
200	here	geyser	Project, Art, Themes	Posts combat move pics. Points out that this will still be an action game; all the philosophy and master plans will be in the background for players who wish to contemplate them (like Oni 1's terminals). Some amount of cliché is sort of unavoidable in an action game where a good guy fights against bad guys. But we can leave the issue of a grand design as just one possibility for the player. For the most part, the events of the game can seem straight-forward, but occasionally a character will give his own diverging take on what is going on. Perhaps the game will even have multiple endings, based on what the player believes is going on. Since guido is all for "grand design" and Your_Mom is dead-set against it, perhaps a pluralistic approach really is the best one.
201	here	caddy	Themes, Project	Is concerned about complexity of geyser's plot, but also thinks he is overlooking the kind of layers that Deus Ex had, where the triad war is separate from the larger story of the game. There should be more "external factors" in Oni 2. Is also concerned that "pluralism" in the actual development process will lead to conflicts; one POV needs to take precedence. Asks for a summary of the main points of the Storyline thread so far.
202	here	geyser	Themes, Phoenix, Meta, Project	Actually, the story allows for lots of complexity, as well as third (and fourth) parties. The rebels aren't all necessarily of the same mind on every issue, for instance what to do with Mai. Some will hate her, some will want to use her as a Daodan-powered tool, some may forgive her, etc. And Meta (the new Syndicate) isn't entirely under Mukade's control. Some of the head guys may realize they're being used, or have their own motivations. Goal behind pluralism is to allow for disagreement among the devs when it comes to the plot. At the same time, someone may have to be in charge of the story to iron out any impassible contradictions. Was planning to summarize thread on OniGalore, but the task would be mind-numbing [tell me about it!]. Suggests that he use his first post as an index of keywords, and then users can search the thread by clicking "Print topic" and getting a one-page listing of all posts which they can search in their browser for those keywords. Recommends some sci-fi reading such as Lem.
203	here	MorrisDay	Themes, Mai	Is concerned that this "Meta/Phoenix" thing is getting too far from what Oni was about. We should simply build on what Bungie provided in Oni 1; the inspiration taken from GitS, the pulp sci-fi story. Haven't we overlooked how Konoko acts and sees herself? What do the new characters (Hikari, Big) bring to the table? And can we get a summary of this thread and a gallery of Guido's art? Wouldn't even mind if Oni 2 was just a multiplayer game with little story.
204	here	geyser	Themes, Hikari, Project	Is less interested in Bungie's "context" and more in how the story itself makes us feel and how it's open to interpretation. Where did these ideas go astray from what Oni is about? Points out all the similarities between the themes in Oni 2 and Oni 1: a nameless heroine without a past; a struggle between two communities, one of which adopts her (perhaps for their own purposes); the heroine developing superhuman abilities while discovering her identity; an obscure community of enemies; the heroine's community rejecting her out of fear of her powers; an enemy mastermind who is somehow connected to the heroine; "marginal people" who can help the heroine find her identity. But we shouldn't idolize the original story too much; the motivations and settings are rather derivative and simplistic. Why shouldn't we aim higher? Thinks that a new player will be able to come into this story without a learning curve from not knowing Oni 1, and returning players will recognize the themes well enough (authoritarian gov't, Mai being used as a weapon, etc.) that they can connect to it. As for Big, has purposely held off on elaborating on that character so fans wouldn't complain about geyser shoe-horning his own creation into the story; focusing first on elaborating on characters such as Mukade. Hikari isn't geyser's character, but if guido finds her inspiring, then is happy to have her around. In any case, we've only come up with a handful of new characters so far, so before we reject them, we need to give them time to see how they will interact with the established cast. Also, Hikari can be involved in revealing information to Mai about who/what she is (although Hikari is also afraid of her, which adds an interesting dynamic). Will start working on summarizing the thread using the aforementioned keyword index. Will also summarize his personal ideas on the wiki; others are welcome to contribute their own material. Art gallery for Guido is in progress; why hasn't anyone commented on his own art yet? Agrees that Oni 2 should start with multiplayer and basic gameplay elements. This thread is for planning out the story stuff that comes much later in the process.
205	here	guido	Art	Offers to put up a art blog. Welcomes new ideas from others, especially if they remain faithful to Bungie's direction.
206	here	geyser	--	--
207	here	guido	Art	Posts link to his art blog [there's nothing there now].
208	here	geyser	Project	Links to some pages on wiki for Oni 2 characters, and to his "interactive index" of key concepts from this thread [that would be the Oni2:Storyline page, which was mostly unfinished at the time].
209	here	caddy	Gameplay, Project	On second thought, he probably won't be the one to summarize the thread so far. Asks about how blocking will work, whether there will be blade weapons, whether we can use a combo system like Matrix: Path of Neo's, how Daodan Overpower mode will work, whether there should be an experience system and skill tree, and what we will do if Oni's owners decide to shut down our work.
210	here	geyser	Gameplay	The gameplay points belong in the Oni 2 Gameplay or Game Concepts thread. Will post later on the subject of "what if our work gets shut down?".
211	here	guido	Art	Posts art [link is broken].
212	here	geyser	Art, Weapons, Hikari	Likes it [whatever it is], but a sword in a bloodless game is questionable, "and maybe even the conventional gun". Links to some Tank Girl art for comparison. Complains about guido's art blog's restrictions. Thinks Hikari's com link is rather retro [he must be referring to this art].
213	here	guido	Art, Hikari	The com link shouldn't be necessary at all for an android; perhaps it's part of a desire on Hikari's part to appear human, or relate to humans.
214	here	geyser	Art, Hikari	That com link certainly won't help her to blend in on the streets. Unless she's trying to infiltrate Phoenix, but they all know each other, so that wouldn't be effective anyway. Thinks Guido should get an oni2.net account.
215	here	geyser	Griffin, Mukade, Meta, OtherChar	Asks whether Griffin was spared in Oni 1. Although the spared-Griffin path is a preferable path to the killed-Griffin path [due to geyser's issues with the Mutant Muro fight], in fact the point is somewhat moot, because Oni 2 allows plenty of time for Griffin to be dead anyway, one way or another. Either he dies in or after the battle with Muro, or else he dies in the Cataclysm, or else he is executed for sharing responsibility for Mai's actions. We can then introduce a new character, a former subordinate or a younger relative of Griffin who tries to get revenge against Mai, perhaps egged on by the "old man". Her attempts to assassinate Mai may seem at first like they're coming from anti-Mai elements of Phoenix. Eventually they'll fight openly, and afterwards they'll talk and Mai will learn more about herself. Also, some of the Meta bad guys may know Mai from the old days and reveal some of her history. Mukade himself will show up in mysterious ways, perhaps leaving her riddles, before the old man finally decides to confront her openly. But neither side is all bad; they have their justifications. Meta will occasionally tell Mai to join them by saying "You're one of us, they'll never forgive you for what you did".
216	here	Your_Mom	OtherChar, META	Suggests that Griffin's avenger also be a Daodan host. Perhaps Meta's line to Mai, à la Athrun to Kira in Gundam SEED, is "Join us, they're only using you."
217	here	geyser	Art, META, Phoenix, OtherChar, Themes	Points Guido to OniGalore as somewhere to place his art. That line of Your_Mom's does fit well, "they're only using you", although doesn't Meta want to use her as well? As for Phoenix, they are against the use of the Daodan because they see it as part of Meta's master plan for humanity. Once they realize Mai is a Daodan host, they will be conflicted on whether it's okay to use her to fight Meta. Doesn't want to give Griffin's avenger a Daodan, that's for Mai's true rival, "Pandora". Pandora is a scientist who defects from Meta, having figured out the Chrysalis implantation process. She brings with her to Phoenix a box of equipment for making a few Chrysalises (Pandora's Box), and preaches the advantages of using the Daodan, but she doesn't really understand the danger that it represents. Mai eventually remembers more about the Daodan's dark side, and confronts Pandora in a fight. Perhaps Pandora doesn't reveal what the box contains, except to a few people. Eventually the Chrysalises from therein may lead to some evil Imagoes for Mai to fight.
218	here	Se_Renkas	Gameplay	Perhaps the game can start in a dojo where the player can practice Konoko's moves while wearing a gi. Then the player gets to transition from the traditional dojo to the futuristic high-tech world outside. In later missions, you get to pick the outfit for Konoko before the level begins.
219	here	geyser	Gameplay, OtherChar, Themes	Isn't that a total rip-off of The Matrix? How would we justify the dojo plot-wise? Perhaps it's in her head as part of her amnesiac nightmares. She can enter into that world at any time if she wants to, in order to (mentally) train more. As for Pandora, her dialogue with Mai can help shed light on the duality of the Daodan as a force for good or evil. Suggests to Guido that his art of Mai on a bike with Mukade might actually be Pandora in a spare Mukade suit that she stole when she fled Meta. Even having their differences, perhaps they have to depend on each other in Oni 2, especially if they are cast out of Phoenix.
220	here	guido	Art	Will try to upload his art to wiki.
221	here	geyser	Themes	Points out that, according to one interpretation of the Pandora myth, hope was an evil, a self-delusion, because it meant trying to bring about a positive future, when in fact none of us can control the future.
222	here	geyser	Art, Vehicles, Themes	Posts drawing of mech that Mai could pilot at some point. Discusses Gunnm as a reference for an Oni 2, especially because the emphasis is on martial arts more than GitS, where guns are the primary weapon of choice. Also mentions Armitage. Finds the idea of a woman becoming less human to be a more unique angle for a character than all those properties with androids trying to become more human. Points to Alita's "rides" - a one-wheeled bike and her Rollerball gear.
223	here	guido	Art, Meta, Mukade	Posts some art [links now broken]. Sees Meta less as a global government and more as a "contingency alliance between present stakeholders and interested individuals". Meta then interacts with the Syndicate and the WCG/TCTF. We should keep in mind that Konoko really meant to kill Mukade, whether or not she succeeded. Does want to bring back Mukade, but not as world ruler, but more in the role of someone associated mysteriously with Hasegawa. He's the kind of person who follows orders, and perhaps teaches Mai about her Daodan, to obtain some satisfaction from sharing his knowledge with a fellow member of a small group. But doesn't see Mukade as a "leading character".
224	here	guido	Art, Griffin, Kerr, Muro	Griffin and Kerr and Muro all served their purpose in Oni 1. Griffin and Kerr started out Konoko on her path of self-discovery; their role is done. Muro was "simply the symbol of what Mai shouldn't ever be". We need new characters for the next stage of the story. As geyser said, there are too many new female characters, so he will try to do something about that. Posts drawing of Mr. Big in a fight, asking Mai for help.
225	here	guido	Art	Posts drawing of unnamed character speaking with Mr. Big. References Blame! as an Oni 2 reference.
226	here	geyser	Art, OtherChar, Hikari, Muro, Themes, Mukade, TCTF	Critiques Guido's art, discusses his plans for his own art. Griffin's relative needn't be female. Pandora will be, and Hikari; sees interesting parallel to the Daodan process in the idea of continually upgrading Hikari. The "old man" and Meta leaders will be male. Wants to bring back Muro as well, not in the flesh, but in Mai's mind. He haunts her because of their relationship in Oni 1, perhaps confronting her, or challenging her philosophically. Since he's not real, he only knows what Mai (or the Daodan) knows. Perhaps his image is actually being used by the Daodan to communicate with Mai. He also may serve as a teacher for Mai in a training environment; since he's not real, his abilities can increase over time, to a fantastical degree, to prepare her for upcoming challenges. He can also represent, as Guido pointed out, what Mai could still become, if she follows the wrong path. So his presence in her head can paint a picture of the struggle that Mai faces, and the balance between human and the inhuman inside her. Mai can become quite familiar with this mental Muro, whereas Mukade will remain distant. This allows for ambiguity about who he really is. Although he may also serve as a sensei to Mai, he doesn't know the whole picture; he has to learn from Mai, as well. (An alternate approach: What if Mukade was the one who introduced the Daodan to Hasegawa?). Mukade may not identify anymore with who he used to be, leading to enigmatic conversations with Mai that only slowly reveal the truth. Why is Mukade using a rifle in that art? He was already able to teleport and fire energy balls in Oni 1; imagine what he can do after his near-death experience makes him even stronger. Re: Blame!, questions how dark Oni 2 should be. Wants variety in tone, not a dark monotony like Max Payne. Doesn't like Guido's weaker version of Meta. It leaves out Mukade's struggles as leader of the world. And who rules the world then? Doesn't see a place for conventional corporations in the world of Oni 2, just Meta and the rebellion. Groups like the TCTF would be absorbed into those two sides. Names from Oni 1 like "TCTF" and "Syndicate" would now be obsolete. A new third party is fine, but Meta needs to be the centralized gov't in control. "No politics. No corporations. The state is the law. The state is the industry." Mentions web site made by war gamers which has interesting weapon concepts.
227	here	Your_Mom	Muro, Mukade, Themes	Likes idea of Head Muro -- "What she learns, she already knows, it is just that her human mind has yet to accept the fact that she does." Perhaps one of Mukade's new abilities is creating clones of himself? Geyser's mention of "irrational hatred extended to anything related to the Daodan process" reminds him of extremists/terrorists, like in Gundam SEED.
228	here	guido	Art	Posts re-drawn group fight with Mr. Big [link broken].
229	here	mackan	Project	Asks if this is just a hobby or if they are connected to Bungie.
230	here	geyser	Project, Art, Mukade, Themes, Phoenix, Settings, Meta	"Do we look like Bungie?" Critiques re-drawn art of Mr. Big (he's still not big enough). Making clones of Mukade is way too similar a concept to Jango Fett in Star Wars prequels. Plus, Daodan-powered clones would be too unpredictable; Mukade needs to maintain control. Does like the idea of doubles for Mukade, however; soldiers who appear to be him, but lacking the mental connection that Mai sensed in the original. Agrees that the line between rebels/guerilla fighters and terrorists can become hazy; perhaps something to explore in Oni 2. Phoenix may have to kill people to keep them quiet when they operate clandestinely; this may lead to a crisis of conscience for Mai where she has to disobey orders. Wants to introduce Hikari in a chase sequence like Rooftops, but faster, where Mai pursues her while dodging Meta patrols. Advantage of his plans for Meta/Syndicate is that it's a simple picture of the world which we can present to the player at the start of the game; later we can reveal that not all is as it seems, or introduce new factions, but the initial setting will be easy to understand.
231	here	mackan	--	--
232	here	guido	--	--
233	here	geyser	--	--
234	here	Your_Mom	Gameplay, Mukade	Clarifies that he was suggesting on-the-spot clones, "for distractions, extra hands", etc. The Hikari chase scene could have checkpoints with individual time limits, or else you need to stay within a certain distance of her or the mission ends. Is geyser saying there will be vehicles in use on the roofs? Maybe the chase leads into the SLD factory and the next level. Shouldn't Mr. Big in Guido's art be throwing his assailants around easily?
235	here	geyser	Gameplay, Mukade, Mr. Big	Making a complete clone out of thin air would require a *lot* of air (and ad hoc nuclear fusion!). Air-based clones wouldn't be solid enough for combat, but perhaps useful for distraction. And if Mukade can use telekinesis to form clones, then he doesn't need extra hands. There also may be a Meta machine that produces more solid clones of Mukade. [Spontaneous review of Björk's musical career omitted, sorry geyser.] As for the Hikari chase leading into the SLD factory, we shouldn't mash all our ideas into such a small portion of gameplay. The SLD factory would make more sense as a separate mission for Mai given by Phoenix. The chase scene won't just be on rooftops, it can be on the street, too, hence the vehicles. Agrees that normally Mr. Big would be throwing those guys around. Perhaps he's sedated. His normal fighting style is a mix of whatever works -- karate, boxing, etc., using his weight to his advantage.
236	here	Your_Mom	Mukade	Acknowledges difficulties in solid-air clones, but then how does Mukade teleport? Maybe he can have both kinds of clones, illusion clones and (fragile) solid clones.
237	here	geyser	Mukade, Gameplay	Both types might be feasible, yes. Teleporting is less far-fetched than making clones. The player would see the world in a sort of shadow form, and could take their time in traveling elsewhere, at least until a gauge runs out. This might be disorienting since no-clip mode would be on, and you might kill yourself by ending up inside a wall; perhaps ending up inside a person could tele-frag them.
238	here	mackan	Mr. Big	Where did Mr. Big come from?
239	here	guido	Art, Mr. Big	Idea behind drawing of Mai walking away from Big in a fight is that she might betray him at some point.
240	here	geyser	Mr. Big, Hikari	Mr. Big was his idea, "as an archetype of brute force combined with a mix of cunning situation assessment and (possibly faked) good-heartedness". He's a rogue element in the plot, not tied to one faction. Initially he brings Mai into Phoenix and supports her on her first missions while the player is learning the ropes. Big also owns a warehouse-turned-night club. It would be hard to have Mai betray Big in a game where you play as Mai; you'd have to take away control from the player, possibly disillusioning them. Perhaps some TCTF gear remains from the old days; it may even serve as a trigger for Mai's memory; perhaps Hikari even wears it for that purpose. "Does Big take Mai as a rival, a friend, a sister... or a collector's item?"
241	here	Last_Hero	Mukade, Phoenix, MainChar	What if Mukade founded Phoenix, as a way to control both sides? He could control certain leaders mentally or else they could be SLDs made for this purpose. Maybe he even founded a third group of environmentalists trying to fix the planet. Could an SLD be implanted with a Daodan? Suggests character of a male investigator who player could take control of in short segments where they solve puzzles or act as a sort of secret agent.
242	here	Your_Mom	MainChar, Phoenix	Compares Last_Hero's idea to how Darth Sidious [Emperor Palpatine of Star Wars] used the separatists as part of his scheme to gain power over the Republic. Would like to play as various characters like Last_Hero's, but geyser has said that Oni 2 will just be played as Konoko.
243	here	Last_Hero	MainChar	It's worth the extra effort to allow alternate characters to play some levels, even if it's only on a second play-through.
244	here	geyser	Mukade, MainChar, Phoenix	Mukade can't control *that* many things at once; he's still supposed to be somewhat human and capable of error. Doubts SLD could be Daodanized, but you could Daodanize the human parts of a cyborg like Barabas. Did not ever pronounce that Oni 2 could only be played as Mai. Is open to allowing shapeshifter on replay, as well as parallel missions as alternate characters.
245	here	Last_Hero	Mukade, Phoenix	Mukade could simply have founded those other groups, but lacks day-to-day control over them. The fact that he's still human will be borne out by the fact that he eventually fails to hold everything together. But his main focus, since he's not a bad guy, is still saving the world through the Syndicate.
246	here	geyser	Mukade, Phoenix	Doubts that Mukade had that level of control in order to found those groups all by himself, nor to guarantee that those groups will continue to do his bidding, once founded. Isn't sure this is a necessary plot contrivance, either. He is already well-hidden and well-informed as the head of the Syndicate. Besides, there's little need for him to found a rebellion; that will happen on its own in response to Meta. He doesn't need to control this rebellion from the inside, only to continue to repress it from without.
247	here	Last_Hero	Project	Oni 2 could have mission titles like the episodes of Martian Successor Nadesico; they hint at the plot and are quite poetic [proceeds to list episode titles].
248	here	geyser	Projects	Yes, something like that would be nice. New ideas and characters are welcome, even if they aren't cyberpunk, as "holding style" is not a priority for him.
249	here	Last_Hero	Project	What sort of characters is geyser looking for?
250	here	geyser	Project	"Quality over quantity. With that in mind, anything goes." Links to character art from Nadesico fan site, asks about masked character from the movie.
251	here	Last_Hero	Project	Answers geyser's question [hey, that's a spoiler!]. Will work on some characters.
252	here	Underdog	Project	Asks status of storyline. Is reading thread from beginning but would really like a summary. Wrote his own rough story once, asks if anyone is interested.
253	here	geyser	Project	Vaguely replies on subject of summary. Yes, we would like to hear his story ideas.
254	here	Last_Hero	OtherChar	Suggests character of Dr. Edward, who is head of Meta's Daodan research team (of which Pandora is a part). He is wary of the Daodan's abilities. Has a granddaughter; wife is deceased.
255	here	Your_Mom	OtherChar	Another Daodan scientist with a dead wife? He can't be the sole head of the department because Mukade would want to run it. Re: Edward's granddaughter, doesn't want Pandora to be related to Dr. Edward as it is too trite and similar to Oni 1 [he's reading too far into Last_Hero's post here].
256	here	Blaghman	Griffin	Thinks Griffin was the mastermind behind "the whole thing". He left the Syndicate alone because "Griffin wanted secret control of the Syndicate".
257	here	geyser	OtherChar, Mukade, Themes	Reminds others that Pandora is a descriptive name for the character, not her actual name. We would only hint at the mythical connection. And maybe Mukade/Hasegawa isn't in control of things at all; refers to Meta's head simply as "HIM" to make this point. It does make sense that if someone was working on the Daodan under Muro in Oni 1, they would now be heading up the work in the Syndicate. Doesn't think that there would be any need for Edward to research the Daodan anymore if they can successfully implant people with it. Perhaps the scientists only do routine work, and the forbidden knowledge is held by HIM. Paints contrast between the cautious Edward, who doesn't want that knowledge, and Pandora, who does. The name "Edward" is too reminiscent of the hacker from Cowboy Bebop, and those kinds of connotations are better left for owldreamer's hacker character.
258	here	Last_Hero	OtherChar	Feel free to change character, also hadn't noticed name link to Bebop.
259	here	geyser	--	--
260	here	typhen	Project	States concern that this is more of a "Geyser's Storyline" thread than an "Oni 2 Storyline" thread. The thread's length makes it hard for newcomers to catch up, and geyser persistently defends his own story ideas, even when they're based on "contentious decisions" such as Konoko having amnesia and waking up in a cave after 20 years. Suggests making a thread for each diverging storyline so it's not about who's "winning" the one true storyline thread. Multiple storylines aren't an issue per se because not everyone wants to make a game out of their storyline.
261	here	Your_Mom	Project	Thinks geyser is running the thread, but doing so fairly. There aren't really any other fan storylines being worked on. The story that is "winning" is going to be the one that is most logical.
262	here	typhen	Project	There's more to it than just which story is most logical; different fans will want different kinds of stories, ranging from action-oriented to stealth-oriented. Still thinks forum can support more than one storyline.
263	here	geyser	Project	Links to disclaimer about Storyline thread on wiki [has been deleted, but it's found here.] Still welcomes others' ideas in the thread. "The index should really ease things out. It would clearly separate the objective from the subjective; Oni's raw material and 'sensible blank-filling' that isn't part of any particular 'Oni 2 plot'... from interpretations/speculations that are a bit less flexible as for the way to let the story evolve in... and finally actual ideas of missions, cinematics, character interaction, parties in presence, etc." Story aside, the mission ideas generated ex nihilo such as the cave and SLD factory simply need to be built and tested, and if they are fun, they can be worked into the story. Acknowledges the weightiness of his walls of text. Is considering stepping back to allow others in thread more room to put forth their ideas. Thinks his ideas are generally compatible with other fans', even where they conflict, because we can allow for multiple possible truths in the story of the game, as much quality writing does. (However, the amnesia element is an exception to this pluralist approach.) For that matter, many of his ideas were made in response to others' ideas. Thinks it is time to step back and consider how things have turned out so far and where we want to go next. One possibility is an online fanzine where we can publish any Oni-related content. At any rate, anyone can start their own thread for their own storyline.
264	here	guido	Project	In fact, the discussions and arguments in this thread are necessary when trying to propose ideas if we want those ideas to be enduring and successful. Rather than shying away from this main storyline thread and making their own, fans need to make the effort to understand and confront the existing ideas, as well as be willing to have their own ideas confronted here. However, sees a need for a second place to propose ideas in a more free-form artistic manner, perhaps showcased somewhere else on Oni Central. These creations can be influenced by, and in turn influence, the storyline ideas on the forum.
265	here	typhen	Project	Still thinks that there is value in someone starting fresh in a new thread. Doesn't want to see current thread stop, though, as it seems to be successful so far. Perhaps we should discuss this kind of thing outside the actual Storyline thread.
266	here	geyser	Project, Themes, OtherChar, Hikari	Agrees with Guido. Wiki makes a better place for a showcase than a "limited access" page on Oni Central. Points to Quotes page that he has created on wiki. Having read all the quotes anew, issues some quasi-retractions on the subjects of whether the increasing pollution was just in Hasegawa's imagination, whether Muro's plan was legitimate, and whether Mai's decision was logical. Questions whether Oni really takes place in 2032 since there are conflicting dates. Game mentions Freedom Riots of 2012 but manual says WCG wasn't formed until after January 2032 [is this necessarily a conflict?]. Reviews main ideas generated to date. Pandora and her optimism for the Daodan vs. Mai's skepticism. The alienation caused by the Daodan and whether there is a grand design behind it, and whether it can be communicated with. The Daodan process, and Meta's rule, try to make things perfect, but the message of Oni 2 will be wabi-sabi-esque: that our beauty and strength lie in our imperfection. Outlines interaction between Mai and Hikari, who is the embodiment of the resurrected Shinatama. "Hacker boy" who works for Hikari may become torn between a distant AI that gives him orders and his "enemy" Mai, who is still partially human. Perhaps Dr. Edward(s) is hacker boy's granddad. "Collective storytelling has its problems [but] having story elements, and especially points of view and interpretations contributed by many individuals is a definite plus". Pluralistic storytelling is "much closer" to how animé and good sci-fi tells stories, leaving some things for the audience to think about. A sophisticated game could even allow Mai to die, and have the player continue with another character such as Hikari or Pandora or Big. That may be over-ambitious for a video game, but maybe a gamebook is a better idea. Points to gamebook on another wiki which is about Oni and has Guido listed as artist: "What the hell is this?" [this was a d20 gamebook worked on by several people we don't know, plus Guido; it didn't seem to be active for very long, and then it was deleted by admins because Wikibooks is not for original material; here's a peek at what it looked like].
267	here	geyser	Sturm., Project, Daodan	Points to new content on wiki such as Barabas article. Links to thread by Loser on Oni Name Translations. Quotes post by Loser relating the Sturm und Drang literature movement to Oni. Questions whether relationship between Daodan and host is symbiosis or parasitism. If the Daodan gives everything to the host, then isn't it the opposite of a parasite? A "metasite"?
268	here	Last_Hero	Syndicate, Hasegawa, Daodan	Wonders if part of the Syndicate's mission wasn't to grant the people more freedom than under the WCG, although the Syndicate would in fact be the ones in charge then. Perhaps they would have become worse than the WCG after all. Bacteria can evolve rapidly when threatened. Where did Hasegawa get the first Chrysalis?
269	here	Your_Mom	Hasegawa, Daodan	Didn't Hasegawa create the Chrysalis?
270	here	geyser	Syndicate, Muro, Daodan, Hasegawa, Mukade, Project	Muro was hardly benevolent: "Join me, or die like all the others". Vaguely discusses possibility that Daodan came from "out of Earth's phase" as the Screamers do [and, he suggests, Mukade's Devil Star]. Either they found Hasegawa or he found them. Or maybe Mukade found the Devil Star. Maybe Hasegawa and Mukade are one and the same, or maybe Mukade absorbed Hasegawa at some point; maybe they're totally separate. For now, it's best to leave these things ambiguous; "what counts about the Daodan is the power and the alienation: doesn't really matter whether those come 'from within' [...] or 'from without'". Wants to keep exploring ideas before settling on final answers for these things. Explains how Oni Galore could be used as a place for the gamebook.
271	here	Laughing_Man_Ra	Syndicate, Hasegawa, Kerr, Daodan	[Apparently this is somewhat of a continuation of Laughing_Man_Ra's thoughts from another thread, the link to which is broken, on his ideas for the story that occurs before the beginning of Oni.] The Syndicate at the time is similar to the Mafia, organized by competing families, with a few families more prominent than the rest. Member of a head family is approached by Hasegawa and Kerr looking for financing to develop the Daodan, which will allow people to survive outside the Cities. They expect the Syndicate will only want patent rights in exchange. Then, it becomes apparent that the Daodan will do much more than make people pollution-resistant. Hasegawa and Kerr are unwilling to test the Chrysalises by implanting them. When the Syndicate family sees the applications of this powerful technology, they move in on the lab. Kerr escapes with Mai, and Hasegawa is forced to implant a Chrysalis in Muro as a test.
272	here	geyser	Society, Daodan	[geyser is now replying to Laughing_Man_Ra's posts from another thread, and even with some quoting going on, it's like trying to follow one side of a phone conversation, so I've left out most of this.] Agrees that it would be impossible to govern a society of Daodan hosts.
273	here	Laughing_Man_Ra	Mukade	Konoko being able to catch up to Mukade doesn't mean he was planning something, it was "merely indicative of her exceptional abilities".
274	here	geyser	Mukade	Then why was Mukade waiting for her before proceeding? Mai just told herself what she needed to believe, that it was because she was good at tracking him. Asserts in passing that Mukade is a telepath.
275	here	Laughing_Man_Ra	Mukade	"I think the scenes where you almost catch up to Mukade are mostly there to build dramatic tension. It's more exciting to be right on the heels of the enemy, isn't it?" But perhaps Mukade was playing mind games with her. How do we know he's a telepath?
276	here	geyser	Mukade	"There is a visceral telepathic connection between him and Mai." Konoko is not "on his heels"; he waits for her before continuing to run; he's familiar with the rooftops and could easily have lost her if he wanted to. The stolen disc is his bait. Since Muro would not approve of these actions, let's say he doesn't work for Muro.
277	here	Laughing_Man_Ra	Mukade, Daodan, Hasegawa, Barabas, Syndicate, Sturm.	Only sees Mukade in motion when he plays. Knows that Daodan hosts can sense each other, but doesn't consider them to be telepathic, capable of communicating sentences mentally. Hasegawa must have stopped cooperating with the Syndicate, based on the disfigured appearance of Barabas (and Mukade too, under that mask?). They turned out weaker than Muro and Mai, too. And why hasn't the Syndicate made a whole squad of Daodan Elites yet? Because they can't get the process quite right yet. Or perhaps they realized that they couldn't control a group of Daodan hosts, but then why would they go with the Sturmanderung scheme? Or maybe Barabas and Mukade are the result of another experiment altogether, in "hyperevolution".
278	here	geyser	Muro, Mukade, Griffin	Points to Muro in Airport level as analogue to Mukade on Rooftops; he allows Konoko to keep up with him, he throws bad guys at her that he knows she can beat, and his comm guy is monitoring her the whole time. Somehow they then disable the tracker she put on the plane while in mid-air; perhaps it was Griffin's idea, to "avoid exposing Mai to prolonged stress... or a way for the TCTF to avoid too big an operation deep inside enemy territory." Lists four places you can spot Mukade, at least one of which has him standing still and watching Konoko before running off. Lists Konoko's lines of dialogue, including the cut ones; although Mukade seems "frustrated", that's only Mai's impression, and it might have nothing to do with her. Since he can teleport, there should be no reason he can't escape if he really wants to. Mukade drops the disc in a way that seems staged, and geyser thinks it odd that Konoko suddenly decides she doesn't want answers when she meets Mukade, and also how in the previous level Konoko said the data was about 'her life', yet later she merely calls it 'her father's file'. She was only given what Mukade wanted her to know; perhaps he manipulated her mentally so that she wouldn't notice the switch. Reiterates that we don't have any evidence of Mukade being deformed; all ninjas cover themselves up.
279	here	geyser	Muro, Barabas, Hasegawa, Mukade, Sturm., Syndicate, Ninjas	Doesn't think that Muro gave much thought to whether a society of Daodan hosts could be contained. He wasn't really thinking for himself, either -- "I've accomplished everything our father dreamed of doing." Either Muro ignores the ethical ramifications of Hasegawa's old plan that became clear later, or else he is following something that he was told his father dreamed of doing. Isn't sure why Laughing_Man_Ra separates Daodan implantation from "hyperevolution". Barabas was definitely a Daodan product; he looks similar to Mutant Muro, like he was an attempt at containing 'Mutant Barabas'. Disagrees with idea that Hasegawa is no longer providing support for the Syndicate; "I only have evidence to the contrary". Rejects assertion that Mai and Muro were clearly superior Daodan hosts to Barabas and Mukade. Barabas was at least controlled, unlike Muro, and Mukade could have been even stronger than Mai and chose not to win. Questions why Muro would be okay with Mukade working under him, as such a powerful Daodan host with his own ninja corps [he is suggesting that Mukade and his ninjas were operating independently]. Reason for lack of Daodan Elites is that the Daodan process has to be kept a secret until Sturmanderung goes into effect. One console tells us that Muro had indeed selected Daodan candidates, so that was certainly in the works. In fact, the console says that "Symbiote candidate selection and implantation" is complete; perhaps the ninjas were subjected to some minor Daodan tweaks. Doesn't think it would be hard to end up working for the Syndicate; it was probably just a matter of telling them about their work on a "resilience patch". And anything that the WCG branded illegal would make money for the Syndicate. Doesn't see the Syndicate being like the Mafia at all; a console specifically paints the Syndicate as outsmarting the Mafia through high-tech business. They are probably less like competing mafiosos and more like a legitimate corporation with a board of directors. Internecine violence would not be permitted by this "Council". Doubts that Hasegawa had such a rough treatment in the Syndicate; Muro became its leader, so his dad would have been protected; if any harm did come to him, then perhaps that's what led to Muro's takeover of the organization.
280	here	Laughing_Man_Ra	Syndicate, Hasegawa, Kerr, TCTF, Mukade	Used Mafia as reference because he wanted some level of organization but also thought that in-fighting would only be natural, and also more interesting for the player. One faction might raid another's warehouses disguised as the TCTF, etc. References Dune's Atreides-Harkonnen conflict. Thinks that Hasegawa's and Kerr's grief over Jamie would have led them to pursue their research too far before realizing its dangers. If TCTF was behind that lost tracker signal, it wasn't Griffin's doing; he's plenty ticked in that "Mission Complete" splashscreen. Points to console that says Griffin is under investigation as evidence that he might be doing too good a job at kicking Syndie butt. Clarifies that he doesn't see Mukade sending intentional psychic messages to Mai to "come get me", but something more like how insects send out pheromones automatically. Doesn't think it's a good idea to take everything in a game as meaningful; we need to acknowledge that sometimes a game is just a game. Why does Mukade survive being shot continuously on Rooftops [referring to catching him standing still before a script kicks in]? Why doesn't Griffin put one of Shinatama's consoles behind his force field in the Omega Vault? Because he's secretly rooting for Konoko, or because a game with an unbeatable boss is no fun?
281	here	geyser	Syndicate, Hasegawa, Kerr	Points out numerous flaws in a Mafia-like Syndicate; points to description of Syndicate as a worldwide paramilitary force, which requires strict organization. They are also faceless to the WCG, unlike Mafias with their dons and capos. Some internal conflict might be interesting, but it could take the form of enforcing the rules, "firing" people (literally!), and keeping lower-tier suppliers in line. Disagrees that Hasegawa was ever naive about the Daodan's abilities; he was working on a global cure from the start, not just a cure for what killed Jamie. He came up with a "seed" process which would then act in an uncontrolled manner. So H&K as well as the Syndicate should have known that it could have other applications, like super-soldiers, right from the start. Why would Hasegawa have ever expected the Syndicate to restrain themselves, if that was the case? That's why he suggests that Hasegawa planned it from the beginning, or at least that H&K were working carefully. The idea of messing with humanity's very genetic makeup was too important to simply let them work blindly, led by emotion.
282	here	geyser	Mukade, Griffin	The fact that Mukade waits for Konoko towards the end of the level, and his “cryptic tirade”, are evidence that he is indeed toying with her. Is well aware of the difference between game bugs and intentional elements; has only dwelled on the things that you are “supposed to see” while playing. But reading into things can be considered “adding value”. But even things that seem unintentional on the part of Bungie don’t have to be labeled as “just bugs”. Mukade can survive getting shot many times because he has a special shield (and why would Konoko shoot him with a grenade launcher when he has her disc, since that would be out of character?). Griffin doesn’t put one of the Zombie Shinatama consoles on his side of the force field because the consoles are part of the defense structure and there probably wasn’t time, nor did Griffin think that it could fail to stop Konoko. He wasn’t counting on Konoko winning by reaching Shinatama’s heart [geyser doesn’t think that Konoko simply hacks the console, but that she is communicating with Shinatama]. That’s why Shinatama disconnects at the end and approaches Griffin. She may be bound by something like Asimov’s Three Laws, but she can circumvene unclear orders; also, someone disabled Griffin’s low-level overrides, as mentioned in a console. The investigation of Griffin could have a lot to do with his Daodan project. It’s true that Griffin is not reluctant to go after the Syndicate at times, but he also sends a tiny squad to “rescue” Shinatama, expecting them to fail.
283	here	Loser	Shinatama	Shinatama didn’t stop when ordered because of the removal of those override codes [geyser then edited his post to include this answer].
284	here	Laughing_Man_Ra	Shinatama, Muro, Griffin	Even if the overrides worked, Shinatama probably could have resisted his order, seeing as she had been falsifying data in the preceding days about Konoko’s Daodan. Muro must have wanted that disc because he didn’t have enough data on Konoko. After all, he kidnaps Shinatama and has his comguy take readings on Konoko at the Airport, so he must be trying to gauge her progress. Why didn’t Griffin remove the files at Regional State since he knew she was coming for them?
285	here	geyser	Muro, Shinatama, Mukade	Muro kidnapped Shinatama just to torture her; he’s a “capricious child”. Shinatama wouldn’t have had much data in her brain on Konoko anyway, that would be in Damocles. The data at Regional State would be useless to Muro; it’s old and only talks in general terms about Hasegawa’s work, which Muro already knows about. The only useful data on Konoko is on TCTF’s intranet, because that’s the only place the up-to-the-minute information is stored on her progress. He only took Shinatama from TCTF because he didn’t care about the data anyway; he is confident in his superior power. Either Muro had something else in mind when he sent Mukade for the Regional State data, or it wasn’t Muro’s order at all. Imagines added scene for TCTF during Syndicate’s attack where someone [I assume he means Mukade] breaks into the Damocles room to tamper with Shinatama and gain information from her.
286	here	Laughing_Man_Ra	Muro, Shinatama	Does geyser really think it was just about torture, and it was a coincidence that she was Konoko’s SLD? Even old data could be useful to Muro; he doesn’t know when Mai was even implanted, so any info is helpful. How does geyser know how much Shinatama knew, and what Muro learned from her? We only see the end of their discussion.
287	here	geyser	Muro, Shinatama, Mukade	It’s true that the kidnapping had the benefit of disrupting the monitoring of Konoko, but it was mainly just a short distraction for Muro. Muro is not curious about his sister. And perhaps Shinatama had a little information stored internally, but for the most part Damocles serves that function. Even if she knew some interesting facts, Muro would have to extract them orally, which would be a pain. If he cared about that, he would have taken data from the TCTF computers on Mai, but he’s overconfident and impulsive, so he didn’t. Doubts that the RSB files even talked about the Daodan directly. They weren’t highly classified, and they were under “light security”, so why would Muro even learn so much as an implantation date for Mai? Sees Mukade as an equal to Muro, so he can’t imagine the ninja working under him. Mukade being Daddy would help explain why Muro tolerates this situation.
288	here	Laughing_Man_Ra	Muro, Mukade	Perhaps Muro’s curiosity about Shinatama results from a preceding attempt to hack her, which fails because of her free will, and he wants to learn more. Perhaps the RSB data was not terribly useful, but something’s better than nothing if Muro wants to learn how close Konoko is to his own level. Muro is confident, but still curious about Konoko, which is why he collects data on her at Airport and by sending Barabas against her in Ch. 3 (since he apparently expects Barabas to lose). Geyser’s picture of Mukade is inconsistent: if he wanted to talk with Konoko, why is he so cryptic when they finally meet? Why bother copying data that isn’t that useful to him? If he only wanted to hide the truth from Konoko, he could have simply deleted the important data in the archives. And, if Mukade is really stronger than Mai and Muro, why would he have been holding back in the fight? If he had no intent to kill her, he could have just escaped. Doubts that it’s significant that he can beat Mutant Muro, as the bosses are calibrated for fighting Konoko, not each other.
289	here	geyser	Muro, Barabas, Mukade, Mai	How would they even attempt to interface with Shinatama at an ACC anyway? Muro was simply curious how she reacted to pain, because she differed from his Tankers. There’s no way Muro cared about any data on Mai because they ran right past the databanks at the TCTF HQ. Muro probably set up Barabas for that fight so he would learn his limitations. Mukade handles Mai that way on Rooftops because he needs to know how much she already knows and what she is ready to learn; he’s afraid to tell her everything if she can’t handle it because it might trigger a bad reaction in her unstable state, even kill her. If she’s not ready, he’ll drop the disc in a way that seems accidental, and the disc will lead her to Kerr, who can break the news about the Daodan to her gently. He has to stage things that way, even seeming to steal the data from RSB, in order for Mai not to question the provenance of the data. The data on the disc may in fact be totally different from, and more truthful than, the data that he deleted from the RSB. His one mistake is not playing dead, leading to his neck being snapped. Mai’s action, in turn, is due to the Daodan perceiving Mukade's veiled remarks as a threat to her fragile mental state. The speech Mukade gave ultimately led to his own "demise".
290	here	TNT	Mai, Ninjas	[For some reason TNT quotes a post from another thread and replies to it here. Some material omitted.] Isn't Konoko still kind of innocent [replying to an assertion by geyser to the contrary]? Questions basis for geyser's theory of "unadvanced" ninjabots.
291	here	geyser	Ninjas, Mai	Asks to keep that talk in another thread. "I don't think 'less human' qualifies as 'unadvanced'. Humanity isn't optimal. There's nothing wrong with killing machines having as good as no personality." And Konoko kills enemies left and right, so how is she innocent?
292	here	TNT	Mai	Maybe less humanity is helpful for being an assassin. Maybe for hackers too? Isn't Konoko's violence coming from the Daodan, not her? And are those enemies dying or being knocked out?
293	here	geyser	Daodan, Ninjas, Mai	Connects "less humanity" statement with what happens to a Daodan host as well. Yes, hacking would be easier, the more machine-like you are. Distinguishes Mukade from the other ninjas; they seem robotic, as if they're SLDs based off Mukade, perhaps with a tinge of Daodan, whereas Mukade has a real personality. Konoko's violence is a response to the dangerous situations she's in; the Daodan is going above and beyond the usual adrenaline rush to make her even more efficient, that is, deadly. "She doesn't enjoy violence. She's just good at it. A posteriori, she may feel a lot of guilt. But she's an angel of death nonetheless."