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Talk:Shinatama: Difference between revisions
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:Apart from sleight-of-hand, "shinatama/shinadama" designates (or used to designate) the art of juggling. The modern Japanese term for juggling tends to be '''jaguringu ジャグリング''', and the aforementioned '''tejina 手品 (てじな)''' is sometimes used to designate juggling rather than sleight-of-hand, too. "Shinadama", however, goes way back to the Edo era, when juggling was a popular form of street performance. Since '''tama/dama 玉''' commonly means "ball", or "ball game" when used as a suffix, it is possible that the juggling connotations of "shinatama/shinadama" are the more fundamental ones (as in "doing with various objects as if they were balls"), whereas the sleight-of-hand meaning came slightly later, because of how both acts require a similar level of playful dexterity. | :Apart from sleight-of-hand, "shinatama/shinadama" designates (or used to designate) the art of juggling. The modern Japanese term for juggling tends to be '''jaguringu ジャグリング''', and the aforementioned '''tejina 手品 (てじな)''' is sometimes used to designate juggling rather than sleight-of-hand, too. "Shinadama", however, goes way back to the Edo era, when juggling was a popular form of street performance. Since '''tama/dama 玉''' commonly means "ball", or "ball game" when used as a suffix, it is possible that the juggling connotations of "shinatama/shinadama" are the more fundamental ones (as in "doing with various objects as if they were balls"), whereas the sleight-of-hand meaning came slightly later, because of how both acts require a similar level of playful dexterity. | ||
;Trickster puppet | ;Trickster puppet | ||
:One of the Edo-era entertainment automata ([[ | :One of the Edo-era entertainment automata ([[wp:Karakuri_puppet|karakuri puppets]], or '''karakuri ningyō からくり人形''') is called '''shinatama ningyō 品玉人形''', with '''ningyō 人形''' meaning "doll/puppet" and '''shinatama 品玉''' designating the parlor tricks that the puppet is capable of (as opposed to the core "trick" of having an autonomously operating puppet – which is what "karakuri" itself refers to). In the case of '''shinatama ningyō''', a typically seated puppet repeatedly lifts a large box off the ground or table, revealing different items each time. | ||
;Shina meaning "Chinese" | ;Shina meaning "Chinese" | ||
:Although the core meaning of '''shina 品''' is "objects/items/goods/wares", it is interesting to note that '''shina 支那''' is also an old Japanese term for "Chinese", nowadays considered pejorative. | :Although the core meaning of '''shina 品''' is "objects/items/goods/wares", it is interesting to note that '''shina 支那''' is also an old Japanese term for "Chinese", nowadays considered pejorative. | ||
:Of particular interest in this respect is the half-humorous, half-chauvinistic cartoon [http://www.myjapanesehanga.com/home/artists/kiyochika-kobayashi-1847-1915-/juggler-of-the-chinese-ball "Juggler of the Chinese ball"] (Shinadama-tsukai or Shina tama-tsukai 支那玉遣ひ). A Japanese officer is simultaneously performing two acts: a balancing act with some military gear, and a juggling act with balls that are shaped as caricatural Chinese people. In line with the intended pun ("doing with the Chinese as if they were balls" – and only needing one hand, too!), the caption combines the ordinary term '''shinadama/shinatama 品玉''', by replacing the ordinary/neutral '''shina 品''' with the pejorative '''shina 支那'''. | :Of particular interest in this respect is the half-humorous, half-chauvinistic cartoon [https://web.archive.org/web/20211127055141/http://www.myjapanesehanga.com/home/artists/kiyochika-kobayashi-1847-1915-/juggler-of-the-chinese-ball "Juggler of the Chinese ball"] (Shinadama-tsukai or Shina tama-tsukai 支那玉遣ひ). A Japanese officer is simultaneously performing two acts: a balancing act with some military gear, and a juggling act with balls that are shaped as caricatural Chinese people. In line with the intended pun ("doing with the Chinese as if they were balls" – and only needing one hand, too!), the caption combines the ordinary term '''shinadama/shinatama 品玉''', by replacing the ordinary/neutral '''shina 品''' with the pejorative '''shina 支那'''. | ||
:Also interesting is how some descriptions of the '''shinatama ningyō 品玉人形''' puppet specifically mention that the doll is wearing Chinese-style clothes (chūgoku kaze no fukusō 中国風の服装). There are no pejorative connotations in this case, and '''shina 支那''' does not appear explicitly either, but possibly we are looking at a "running gag" in Japanese culture, where the '''shina 品''' radical can act as a magnet for Chinese stereotypes, regardless of context. | :Also interesting is how some descriptions of the '''shinatama ningyō 品玉人形''' puppet specifically mention that the doll is wearing Chinese-style clothes (chūgoku kaze no fukusō 中国風の服装). There are no pejorative connotations in this case, and '''shina 支那''' does not appear explicitly either, but possibly we are looking at a "running gag" in Japanese culture, where the '''shina 品''' radical can act as a magnet for Chinese stereotypes, regardless of context. | ||
;Standalone meanings of 品 and 玉 | ;Standalone meanings of 品 and 玉 | ||
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:"Trickster puppet" still looks like the core meaning, even though the more appropriate reading is "trickery", more specifically referring to the art of sleight-of-hand. Additionally, it turns out that "Shinatama" (or rather "Shinadama") could be a reference to the art of juggling. (In both cases the '''shinatama/shinadama 品玉''' is an old term going back to the Edo era, whereas modern sleight-of-hand and juggling are termed differently.) | :"Trickster puppet" still looks like the core meaning, even though the more appropriate reading is "trickery", more specifically referring to the art of sleight-of-hand. Additionally, it turns out that "Shinatama" (or rather "Shinadama") could be a reference to the art of juggling. (In both cases the '''shinatama/shinadama 品玉''' is an old term going back to the Edo era, whereas modern sleight-of-hand and juggling are termed differently.) | ||
:It is worth noting that the "juggling" meaning of '''shinadama 品玉''' is perhaps lesser-known than the "sleight-of-hand" meaning, because of how the latter was perpetuated in visually arresting automaton form; and it is also in its automaton incarnation that '''shinadama 品玉''' seems to have evolved into a definite '''shinatama 品玉''', with a "T". | :It is worth noting that the "juggling" meaning of '''shinadama 品玉''' is perhaps lesser-known than the "sleight-of-hand" meaning, because of how the latter was perpetuated in visually arresting automaton form; and it is also in its automaton incarnation that '''shinadama 品玉''' seems to have evolved into a definite '''shinatama 品玉''', with a "T". | ||
:Then again, as seen in the case of the "Juggler of the Chinese ball", the two pronunciations "dama" and "tama" can be used interchangeably for the juggling act as well. So it is possible to see the name Shinatama as meaning either "trickster" or "juggler" (choosing the more intuitive "actor" naming over the literal metonymy, which would be "trickery" or "juggling"). Juggling | :Then again, as seen in the case of the "Juggler of the Chinese ball", the two pronunciations "dama" and "tama" can be used interchangeably for the juggling act as well. So it is possible to see the name Shinatama as meaning either "trickster" or "juggler" (choosing the more intuitive "actor" naming over the literal metonymy, which would be "trickery" or "juggling"). Juggling makes sense seeing as how much data Shinatama has to deal with, whereas trickery as a theme is somewhat harder to justify in-universe (though not much harder than, say, "[[Damocles]]"). | ||
:Last but not least, there is always a possibility to play with the writing of a given name, for additional connotations/interpretations. For what it's worth, the Japanese version of Oni spells out the name Shinatama as katakana (シナタマ), without favoring one reading or the other. | :Last but not least, there is always a possibility to play with the writing of a given name, for additional connotations/interpretations. For what it's worth, the Japanese version of Oni spells out the name Shinatama as katakana (シナタマ), without favoring one reading or the other. | ||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 20:39, 2 August 2021 (CEST) | ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 20:39, 2 August 2021 (CEST) | ||
:::Are you ''sure'' you can't think of any trickery that Shinatama engaged in? Anything important that she hid from anyone? =^_^= --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 20:53, 2 August 2021 (CEST) | :::Are you ''sure'' you can't think of any trickery that Shinatama engaged in? Anything important that she hid from anyone? =^_^= --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 20:53, 2 August 2021 (CEST) | ||
::::Is that a trick question? ^_^ It's an ''in-universe'' justification of such a naming that I find hard to justify, even more so than for Damocles. (For the sake of the argument I am going to pretend that the name "Damocles" made the cut, and that it designates either the tall mainframe that Shinatama's attached to – processing Konoko's data – or Griffin's whole anti-Muro program.) In the case of Damocles it sort of makes sense, humility-wise, to pick a name that reflects the precariousness and uncertainty that come with Daodan symbiosis. But setting up an android to act as a reliable interface between Konoko and HQ, and having trickery in mind while naming said android – that's a totally different level of foreshadowing. Like having treason in a story and naming the traitor's character Judas/Brutus/Ganelon/etc. So I ''like'' to think that whoever named Shinatama (in-universe) had juggling in mind, rather than sleight-of-hand or general trickery. Or, if they were aware of the sleight-of-hand connotations, they might have deemed them innocent enough, and in no way ominous: "Let's not forget SLDs are like automatons, shall we? She may be a trickster, but she's ''our'' trickster" – that kind of confidence on the part of the one who did the naming ''might'' work, although personally I find it a bit annoying when combined with the "Damocles" and "trouble-making" themes (it's like Griffin knows from the start that he's fighting a losing battle, and keeps naming stuff accordingly). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 00:35, 3 August 2021 (CEST) | |||
:::::Oh, I misunderstood. When you wrote "In other words, it's as if Shinatama's name had been picked to be 'trickery'", I thought you were talking about the choice made in the real world by BWest. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:40, 3 August 2021 (CEST) | |||
::::::The fragment you're referring to is indeed about the real-world choice at Bungie West (well, mostly), but at that point I am merely pointing out the somewhat awkward metonymy, i.e., how "trickster"/"juggler" comes more naturally as a character's name than "trickery"/"juggling", and how it's possibly more stilted than in the case of Daodan (if you go along with the Chinese origin), because Daodan is adjectivized in most of Oni's contexts, and Shinatama isn't. Taken separately, this metonymy issue is more about general linguistics, and less about foreshadowing any of Oni's events, so it exists both in the real world and in-universe. Later on I say that "trickery as a theme is somewhat harder to justify in-universe", and at this point I am indeed looking at Shinatama's naming from the perspective of Kerr&Griffin&Co: if deception is essentially Shinatama's middle name, then how reliable do they expect her to be? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:33, 3 August 2021 (CEST) | |||
==Dox: One more cent, the artificial soul== | |||
:Shina - 品 (goods, article, thing) | |||
:[[wp:Mitama|Tama]] - 魂 (soul) | |||
:: manufactured/constructed soul | |||
::: fitting for an Simulated Life '''Doll''' ;) | |||
:::: On a side note: I always found it strange that '''they named it "SLD" and not used traditional science fiction terms''' like "robot", "android" and such. | |||
::: I like how the different interpretations can blend into each other. @trickster puppet: you are tricked to believe that the robot is alive/has a soul. @treasure: a backup of Mai's soul and earlier personality? | |||
::: Ultimately, Shinatama could be a reference to "ghost in the shell", too. | |||
:::btw, here are a few older thoughts from RS story: | |||
::::Pensatore has rescued Shinatama from Omega Vault. But since then '''Shin questions her own ego''', is something of her soul missing? Hence removes "(a)tama" from her name, pun: tama = soul, atama = head (in Japanese)(it's a small step to "brain", "mind"), also: "Shin" is a base for the word "die", so in total: "died without a soul" or "without a head you die"). Therefore Shinatama 2.0 just refers to herself as "Shin" (to give hints of her inner conflict, doubts). | |||
::--[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] | |||
::Indeed. Shinatama is never "spelled out" in kanji form anywhere in Oni (and the Japanese version uses katakana), so anything goes. And even it Oni ''did'' specify the name as being '''Shinatama 品玉''', there is still this Japanese phenomenon when people go creative with their children's names (or their own) by using homophonic kanji. Thus, in a hypothetical remake/sequel/epilogue, Konoko (or someone from Kerr's team) may very well write Shinatama as 品魂 rather than 品玉, splicing the original idea of "dexterity"/"trickery" with the "spirit"/"soul" concept. By the way, that alternative '''tama 魂''' kanji is a doubly nice find, as it's built around '''oni 鬼''' (ghost). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:55, 3 August 2021 (CEST) | |||
[[Category:Characters]] | |||