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Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Digest: Difference between revisions
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::That's two plus Mukade in the TNZ perspective (and any resources/knowledge he might have), but I get your point. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:46, 21 May 2020 (CEST) | ::That's two plus Mukade in the TNZ perspective (and any resources/knowledge he might have), but I get your point. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:46, 21 May 2020 (CEST) | ||
:Iritscen has basically split the amount of work by saying the Daodan was invented and the Chrysalis was discovered (originating from behind the Phase Veil, IIRC). --''''Dox''' | :Iritscen has basically split the amount of work by saying the Daodan was invented and the Chrysalis was discovered (originating from behind the Phase Veil, IIRC). --''''Dox''' | ||
::Basically, yes, but the other way around: "My approach to the backstory has Hasegawa inventing the Chrysalis — the implantable form of the Daodan — but not the Daodan itself." ([[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Overview#Backstory|Backstory]]) --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:42, 22 May 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::In that case it's close enough to "my" theory below... well, except for the plants and alien invasion and time travel. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 20:30, 22 May 2020 (CEST) | |||
::For me, the Daodan (aura) not only comes from the Phase but is also sentient. This adds a "new dimension" to the term 'symbiosis', besides the mere coexistence inside one body with one's own "tumor clone". However, the Daodan does not speak English, and its "sentience" can only be judged by the "optimal/optimizing" behavior of Chrysalis cells under its influence. Kerr's poetic tirade - "whatever your final form, it is an expression of your true nature" - is of course totally unscientific <strike>bullshit</strike> wishful thinking, and he mainly says it to reassure Mai and himself - but it ''does'' tell us that, somehow, the Chrysalis is really good at preserving its host's life ''and'' integrity. | ::For me, the Daodan (aura) not only comes from the Phase but is also sentient. This adds a "new dimension" to the term 'symbiosis', besides the mere coexistence inside one body with one's own "tumor clone". However, the Daodan does not speak English, and its "sentience" can only be judged by the "optimal/optimizing" behavior of Chrysalis cells under its influence. Kerr's poetic tirade - "whatever your final form, it is an expression of your true nature" - is of course totally unscientific <strike>bullshit</strike> wishful thinking, and he mainly says it to reassure Mai and himself - but it ''does'' tell us that, somehow, the Chrysalis is really good at preserving its host's life ''and'' integrity. | ||
::I don't have a "full picture" to show you right now, but imagine - if you can - that both the Daodan and Screamers (and Phase entities in general), are ''transdimensional'', i.e., they are either 100% "latent" (fully residing in their home dimension), 100% "present" (pulled entirely into our world), or something in between. In some conditions the entities can flow freely back-and-forth between the two worlds. In other cases there will be little bits - "tips of the iceberg" - sticking into our dimension while the bulk of the entity remains "home". Force fields, for example, can be seen as "slices" of the other dimension temporarily inserted into ours - light can travel through such a slice, but for matter it will behave like a solid barrier. As another example, phase cloak wearers are still mostly in "our" dimension, but the agitation slightly "displaces" them in the direction of the Phase (a dangerous process that can lead to cellular damage or disintegration). Teleportation is similar to cloaking, but it's an even deeper (and more dangerous) excursion towards the Phase - thus, in the TNZ view, only fully integrated Daodan symbiotes can survive a teleport. | ::I don't have a "full picture" to show you right now, but imagine - if you can - that both the Daodan and Screamers (and Phase entities in general), are ''transdimensional'', i.e., they are either 100% "latent" (fully residing in their home dimension), 100% "present" (pulled entirely into our world), or something in between. In some conditions the entities can flow freely back-and-forth between the two worlds. In other cases there will be little bits - "tips of the iceberg" - sticking into our dimension while the bulk of the entity remains "home". Force fields, for example, can be seen as "slices" of the other dimension temporarily inserted into ours - light can travel through such a slice, but for matter it will behave like a solid barrier. As another example, phase cloak wearers are still mostly in "our" dimension, but the molecular agitation slightly "displaces" them in the direction of the Phase (a dangerous process that can lead to cellular damage or disintegration). Teleportation is similar to cloaking, but it's an even deeper (and more dangerous) excursion towards the Phase - thus, in the TNZ view, only fully integrated Daodan symbiotes can survive a teleport. | ||
::Screaming Cells are an example of entities that normally live "elsewhere" (out of Earth phase, as Oni puts it), but can venture into our dimension - the higher or lower "presence" of a Screamer can be seen as a larger or smaller projection of its transdimensional/multi-dimensional form onto our familiar 3D space (see [https://gifer.com/en/Rpck HERE] for a typical illustration of how a "hypersphere" is perceived in lower dimensions as a sphere of variable size). A Screaming Cannon's projectiles are material pieces of Phase tech that "hook" the Cell in our world and make sure it sticks around for long enough to do some damage (without the hook, the Cell could probably disappear into the Phase right away, and wouldn't need to fly around looking for "food"). | ::Screaming Cells are an example of entities that normally live "elsewhere" (out of Earth phase, as Oni puts it), but can venture into our dimension - the higher or lower "presence" of a Screamer can be seen as a larger or smaller projection of its transdimensional/multi-dimensional form onto our familiar 3D space (see [https://gifer.com/en/Rpck HERE] for a typical illustration of how a "hypersphere" is perceived in lower dimensions as a sphere of variable size). A Screaming Cannon's projectiles are material pieces of Phase tech that "hook" the Cell in our world and make sure it sticks around for long enough to do some damage (without the hook, the Cell could probably disappear into the Phase right away, and wouldn't need to fly around looking for "food"). | ||
::A Daodan is similar to a Screamer, in the way that its extension/projection into our dimension can appear as a smaller or larger "presence" (the aura's glow, the amount of available "energy", and the "bandwidth" if you think of the Daodan as a supercomputer residing in the other dimension and "connecting wirelessly" to the host and its Chrysalis). The Daodan also has a "hook" (the Chrysalis cells), which maintains the Daodan in contact with the host even at full (or nearly full) "latency" - and allows the aura/energy/information to flow from the Phase into our dimension and back. | ::A Daodan is similar to a Screamer, in the way that its extension/projection into our dimension can appear as a smaller or larger "presence" (the aura's glow, the amount of available "energy", and the "bandwidth" if you think of the Daodan as a supercomputer residing in the other dimension and "connecting wirelessly" to the host and its Chrysalis). The Daodan also has a "hook" (the Chrysalis cells), which maintains the Daodan in contact with the host even at full (or nearly full) "latency" - and allows the aura/energy/information to flow from the Phase into our dimension and back. | ||
::The Chrysalis biomass can also be seen as a portal between dimensions. When the process is initiated, the portal/hook is the size of a single cell, so there is a narrow "bottleneck" in terms of the energy and information that can come through "from the other side" (thus the growth and adaptability of the Chrysalis are slow at this stage). However, as the Chrysalis grows further and produces "metastases", the "energy throughput" and informational "bandwidth" increase dramatically - allowing faster, more powerful and more intelligent transformations. It is important that this process is not rushed, otherwise there's a risk of "instability" (integrity loss; deformity, inhuman features, insanity, etc). Finally the whole body of the host turns into a transdimensional portal, and the "aura" has direct access from the Phase to any of the host's cells - what happens then (Imago) is anyone's guess, but "the possibilities are endless!!!" (teleportation, telekinesis, flight, summoning...). | ::The Chrysalis biomass can also be seen as a portal between dimensions. When the process is initiated, the portal/hook is the size of a single cell, so there is a narrow "bottleneck" in terms of the energy and information that can come through "from the other side" (thus the growth and adaptability of the Chrysalis are slow at this stage). However, as the Chrysalis grows further and produces "metastases", the "energy throughput" and informational "bandwidth" increase dramatically - allowing faster, more powerful and more intelligent transformations. It is important that this process is not rushed, otherwise there's a risk of "instability" (integrity loss; deformity, inhuman features, insanity, etc). Finally the whole body of the host turns into a transdimensional portal, and the "aura" has direct access from the Phase to any of the host's cells - what happens then (Imago) is anyone's guess, but "the possibilities are endless!!!" (teleportation, telekinesis, flight, summoning...). | ||
::Seen from that perspective, the Daodan is "just" a benevolent Screamer. Instead of draining energy from living cells, it provides them with extra energy and "motivation". Hasegawa's first experiments may have been with Screaming Cells as a tunable "source of damage" (trying to genetically engineer cells that would resist a Screamer's draining for as long as possible) - until one day the parameters of the "Phase hook" changed and, instead of "fishing" a Screamer as usual, it is a Daodan that came out of the Phase and "bit" the tissue sample. The amazing properties of this new entity became clear immediately: the sample doesn't die from energy draining; in fact the cells look healthy and start dividing/mutating, even without a [[wp: | ::Seen from that perspective, the Daodan is "just" a benevolent Screamer. Instead of draining energy from living cells, it provides them with extra energy and "motivation". Hasegawa's first experiments may have been with Screaming Cells as a tunable "source of damage" (trying to genetically engineer cells that would resist a Screamer's draining for as long as possible) - until one day the parameters of the "Phase hook" changed and, instead of "fishing" a Screamer as usual, it is a Daodan that came out of the Phase and "bit" the tissue sample. The amazing properties of this new entity became clear immediately: the sample doesn't die from energy draining; in fact the cells look healthy and start dividing/mutating, even without a [[wp:Growth medium|growth medium]] (!); the mutant cells are able to infiltrate/assimilate other cells from the same organism; they resist surgery; if extended to larger samples, they inexplicably enhance the original while preserving its integrity. | ||
::That's just real-time brainstorming up there - generated on the spot, as usual - but it fits in rather well with my general ideas-so-far about the Daodan/Chrysalis entity, so I will probably add it to TNZ as "plausible fact". Let me know if you think it makes sense as an alternative to your ideas and 'Scen's. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:46, 21 May 2020 (CEST) | ::That's just real-time brainstorming up there - generated on the spot, as usual - but it fits in rather well with my general ideas-so-far about the Daodan/Chrysalis entity, so I will probably add it to TNZ as "plausible fact". Let me know if you think it makes sense as an alternative to your ideas and 'Scen's. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:46, 21 May 2020 (CEST) | ||
:My approach is computation. Kerr and Hasegawa heavily relied on Avatara's power to pull off that kind of research. Also to adapt to any threat (through non-random mutation, '''smart''' cancer) the Daodan needs to be a quantum computer in blood and flesh. That's totally another research field. | :My approach is computation. Kerr and Hasegawa heavily relied on Avatara's power to pull off that kind of research. Also to adapt to any threat (through non-random mutation, '''smart''' cancer) the Daodan needs to be a quantum computer in blood and flesh. That's totally another research field. | ||
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::To me, Daodan symbiosis works as a "leap of faith" (both for an unwitting subject such as Mai and for the "designers" of the project, like Hasegawa - Kerr's "true nature" tirades are a good example). It is much less convincing as "controlled technology" or "calculated risk" - Griffin's failure is a testament to that. The only guarantees about the Daodan is that it will deceive ''any'' expectations - other than expressing the "true nature" of its host (whatever that means) - and elude ''any'' form of control. It can be "invented"/"discovered", but not "mastered" or "harnessed" --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 20:47, 21 May 2020 (CEST) | ::To me, Daodan symbiosis works as a "leap of faith" (both for an unwitting subject such as Mai and for the "designers" of the project, like Hasegawa - Kerr's "true nature" tirades are a good example). It is much less convincing as "controlled technology" or "calculated risk" - Griffin's failure is a testament to that. The only guarantees about the Daodan is that it will deceive ''any'' expectations - other than expressing the "true nature" of its host (whatever that means) - and elude ''any'' form of control. It can be "invented"/"discovered", but not "mastered" or "harnessed" --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 20:47, 21 May 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::Are you crushing Mai's hope of a better humanity? Monsters everywhere. ^_^ --[[User:Paradox-01|paradox-01]] ([[User talk:Paradox-01|talk]]) 09:10, 22 May 2020 (CEST) | :::Are you crushing Mai's hope of a better humanity? Monsters everywhere. ^_^ --[[User:Paradox-01|paradox-01]] ([[User talk:Paradox-01|talk]]) 09:10, 22 May 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::Monsters!?? Where!?? No, seriously, which part are you reacting to? If the Daodan isn't 100% man-made, that makes it "more monstrous" somehow? Or is it the unpredictable/uncontrollable aspect? | |||
::::Either way, if there's just Mai and Muro (and Mukade; and Barabas), that's hardly "everywhere". Or is it the Screamers and Daodans that you're objecting to? Too many sentient "creatures"? | |||
::::Mai's "hope of a better humanity" would be the part where she says "Mankind as we knew it is doomed. The Chrysalis will change us all."? And then she breaks a mirror, just to make sure. | |||
::::Note, though, that despite her "anti-hero" antics, Mai turns out great (so far) as a symbiote - we don't see her "giving in" to Imago as Muro does, or going schizo like Mukade, etc. | |||
::::Somehow she manages to "stay human" (c.f. "saboi astatsa dolshe" from Origa's "Inner Universe" - to stay oneself longer) while accepting the Daodan's upgrades. Arguably this is just another gameplay necessity, because she needs to remain relatable as a character. But the in-universe explanation is that Mai is a relatively "good" example of symbiosis, and so she might be holding the answer of "better humanity" as you say - she is balancing on the razor's edge, undergoing radical transformation without losing her identity. So, monsters or not, this is still about Hope, Faith and Love. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:36, 22 May 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::"The only guarantees about the Daodan is that it will deceive any expectations" The means it would also deceives Mai's hope (in the outro sequence) that the Daodan will help out the people. Looking at Muro, Barabas and Mukade and your comment there rather will be more monsters and destruction. --[[User:Paradox-01|paradox-01]] ([[User talk:Paradox-01|talk]]) 11:03, 23 May 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::(When I say that the Daodan is "guaranteed to deceive any expectations", that's a typical logical trap, à la "this sentence is false". ''Some'' hopes will necessarily turn out to be true.) | |||
::::::Oh, so it's the post-Oni monsters that you were objecting to (banalization of Daodan symbiosis, and most of the symbiotes ending up as freaks). That is something that I would like to avoid, too. The "hope" here (ours, not Mai's) is that the secret of Daodan "inception" and implantation died with Mukade/Hasegawa and Kerr, and/or that what's left of the WCG/TCTF will lock the technology away. | |||
::::::As for Mai, I already said that she does not look/sound very "hopeful" in the outro. The exact final words are "Mankind as we knew it is doomed: the Chrysalis will change us all. Let's hope it's for the better." - which is a very moderate form of optimism (also, grey colors, minor soundtrack, gloomy/sour appearance of Konoko in that scene...). Her faith in the Chrysalis is a somewhat uneasy one - after all, she was the first to ask Kerr "Muro and his men... they're monsters. What am I?". She is recognizing that change is inevitable - for better or worse -, and hopes for the better simply because it's the only alternative to ''despair'' (and she's not ready for that yet). She also says "My father's work may prove to be the salvation of the afflicted after all." - but, if she means mass-production and implantation of Chrysalises, then (fortunately or unfortunately) the decision is not up to her. It's not just about ethics and regulations - each person needs to understand the consequences and make a well-informed choice (unless she wants to do the same to all the victims as Griffin did to her - forced/secret implantation?). The ''feasibility'' of mass implantation is also dubious: both Mai and Muro were looked after by a whole team of sci-goons, and there is no way that this would work on a "general availability" scale, even if we imagine that the world population dropped to just a few million. | |||
::::::Another thing about Mai's final tirade is that it can be seen as metaphorical: she may not have meant it in the direct sense of "yay, let's implant Chrysalises to everyone!" but rather as "what my father started - and the big mess that is caused - has finally taken us out of our comfort zone; wherever this leads us, it can only be an improvement". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 12:30, 23 May 2020 (CEST) | |||
==Speeding up unification== | ==Speeding up unification== | ||
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:""It is important that this process is not rushed, otherwise there's a risk of "instability" (integrity loss; deformity, inhuman features, insanity, etc)."" ^_^ | :""It is important that this process is not rushed, otherwise there's a risk of "instability" (integrity loss; deformity, inhuman features, insanity, etc)."" ^_^ | ||
:Please let me take care of updating TNZ first, at least (merging 2017 French into 2007 English). Besides, it doesn't look like we're fighting, so feel free to keep asking questions. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 10:54, 22 May 2020 (CEST) | :Please let me take care of updating TNZ first, at least (merging 2017 French into 2007 English). Besides, it doesn't look like we're fighting, so feel free to keep asking questions. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 10:54, 22 May 2020 (CEST) | ||
:"the things you would like to keep of the material of others and mine" -- ooh, so I'd also have to (re)read all of RS/CB/SOW first (and either ask questions, or take some time to rationalize it on my own)... That could take a while, especially since I didn't plan for that kind of activity these days. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:41, 22 May 2020 (CEST) | |||
::Honestly, it's faster for you to read it (at least, I know that's the case with my writing) than for me to explain it all again somewhere else on the wiki. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:42, 22 May 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::I think Dox's idea is that by re-stating our fetishes (with the most concise wording, and in a common space) we are more likely to achieve consensus in a reasonable time frame. I already work iteratively (i.e., paraphrasing what I said earlier is not a waste of time for me, more like an opportunity to "stir it up"). But we all have our methods and priorities, so, yeah. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:16, 22 May 2020 (CEST) | |||
::P.S.: My writing is pretty focused and concise if you only look at Overview, Factions, and Story (only the "Wilderness" through "Daodan" sections would probably be of interest to you). Most of the meat is there. There's no actual plot, which was deliberate on my part. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:51, 22 May 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::I guess if you take some time to revisit your pages (as you've been doing) and/or invest in a one-page digest ("elevator pitch"), that will essentially be the same as what 'Dox is proposing. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:20, 22 May 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::I don't think I can sum it up more than I have on Overview. Any additional details given on the other pages are still in flux — for instance, exactly what's on the other side of the phase veil. I'm not willing to narrow down the possibilities more at this time, nor to write an explicit plot at all. I also don't necessarily endorse this idea of unification, but I couldn't help but reply when my name/project was mentioned ^_^ --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:28, 23 May 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::So is "Oni 3 = yellow" beyond trimming, too, or what? "You are such a disappointment." - well, not, really, c.f. what I said above about "to each his own". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 09:21, 23 May 2020 (CEST) | |||
[[Category:Oni 2]] | |||