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User:Geyser/STFUn00b: Difference between revisions
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::Okay, I guess I'll take that approach, although I'd like to find out at some point what I did wrong with OM. Thanks, Ed. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 04:46, 24 August 2008 (CEST) | ::Okay, I guess I'll take that approach, although I'd like to find out at some point what I did wrong with OM. Thanks, Ed. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 04:46, 24 August 2008 (CEST) | ||
:Apart from the global folder not working on the Mac, there should be no problem. If in doubt, provide a snapshot of your IGMD folder. Also consider using the PC version, for which you can use [http://zdlo.oni2.net/Scripts/DeveloperMode/FlagMap/ THIS]. More generally, I'm looking forward to some follow-up to | :Apart from the global folder not working on the Mac, there should be no problem. If in doubt, provide a snapshot of your IGMD folder. Also consider using the PC version, for which you can use [http://zdlo.oni2.net/Scripts/DeveloperMode/FlagMap/ THIS]. More generally, I'm looking forward to some follow-up to '''Talk:Running_PC_versions_of_Oni_on_the_Mac''', and I'm curious why you're not using the PC version for recording. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:40, 24 August 2008 (CEST) | ||
:Lately I've been browsing flags in a simplified manner, by repeatedly entering "my_flag= my_flag+1; chr_teleport(my_flag); chr_facetoflag(my_flag);" from the console and occasionally setting my_flag explicitly (when there are large gaps between flag IDs). Of course during this process I keep an eye on the lists found [http://zdlo.oni2.net/Items/Flags/ HERE] or [http://geyser.oni2.net/OBD/BINA/OBJC/FLAG/ HERE]. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:40, 24 August 2008 (CEST) | :Lately I've been browsing flags in a simplified manner, by repeatedly entering "my_flag= my_flag+1; chr_teleport(my_flag); chr_facetoflag(my_flag);" from the console and occasionally setting my_flag explicitly (when there are large gaps between flag IDs). Of course during this process I keep an eye on the lists found [http://zdlo.oni2.net/Items/Flags/ HERE] or [http://geyser.oni2.net/OBD/BINA/OBJC/FLAG/ HERE]. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:40, 24 August 2008 (CEST) | ||
::Has anyone considered making an OniMenu-type script that actually lists a level's flags with descriptions of their locations in the level? You could drill down the menus, maybe starting with choosing what level's flags to look at if there's no way to find out the current level through BSL, then in a submenu choose the area of the level to go to, then choose the specific spot. In other words, scriptifying ZDLO's flag tables. It seems like a fair amount of work, but it would be easy work, mostly copying and pasting BSL code (wow, that guy in the Bungie West tour video was right, programming <u>is</u> cutting and pasting!; what was his name?). | ::Has anyone considered making an OniMenu-type script that actually lists a level's flags with descriptions of their locations in the level? You could drill down the menus, maybe starting with choosing what level's flags to look at if there's no way to find out the current level through BSL, then in a submenu choose the area of the level to go to, then choose the specific spot. In other words, scriptifying ZDLO's flag tables. It seems like a fair amount of work, but it would be easy work, mostly copying and pasting BSL code (wow, that guy in the Bungie West tour video was right, programming <u>is</u> cutting and pasting!; what was his name?). | ||
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===Shitstorm=== | ===Shitstorm=== | ||
:::Okay, I was totally ignorant of ZDLO's flag browser, so thank you for explaining it. I also didn't realize that PCs could display text above character's heads, but it sure explains [ | :::Okay, I was totally ignorant of ZDLO's flag browser, so thank you for explaining it. I also didn't realize that PCs could display text above character's heads, but it sure explains [[:Image:Run Loser.jpg|this]]. | ||
:::Also, you might be interested to know that I figured out why we disagree on the basic idea of making user-friendly modding tools; it came to me in a flash of insight. [ | :::Also, you might be interested to know that I figured out why we disagree on the basic idea of making user-friendly modding tools; it came to me in a flash of insight. [https://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/ ''I'm a Mac and you're a PC'']. The guiding principle behind the Macintosh was that if you provided a well-designed GUI, creative people could be more creative. It would empower them. For years, even after Windows was released, there were DOS stalwarts who insisted that it was better to have to do the hard work from the command line than to have 'frivolous' things like mice and windows. Even though no one still adheres to the command-line-is-better school of thought, that way of thinking has a hold on many of the technically-smart Windows users to this day. Once a person switches to Mac, they realize that making basic UI tasks intuitive, and making multimedia work easier encourages the user to actually ''be'' creative. There's no need to pull oneself over a technical hurdle like, say, using OniSplit from the command line (and oddly enough, you seem to support the idea of a GUI for OniSplit) in order to get things done so it's easier to let your initial enthusiasm carry over instead of getting mired in stuff that should be behind the scenes. A recent exchange from the forum (names have been changed to protect the innocent): | ||
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
:::OniVirgin: I think I should add some new moves to Yosemite Sam because he doesn't have as many moves as other characters. | :::OniVirgin: I think I should add some new moves to Yosemite Sam because he doesn't have as many moves as other characters. | ||
:::Burt: OniVirgin: You might be interested in this page: http://wiki.oni2.net/OBD_talk:TRAM. | :::Burt: OniVirgin: You might be interested in this page: <nowiki>http://wiki.oni2.net/OBD_talk:TRAM</nowiki>. | ||
:::OniVirgin: That page looks useful. But... my new semester is coming and I must focus on my study. Maybe other time I can modify it...</blockquote> | :::OniVirgin: That page looks useful. But... my new semester is coming and I must focus on my study. Maybe other time I can modify it...</blockquote> | ||
::::::What happened here? Our new and enthusiastic modder is thrown off by having to absorb 10 screenfuls of technical stuff that's not in his native language (and really, who ''does'' speak hex fluently? ;-). Now, imagine if we had a visual 3D TRAM editor, or even a GUI for OniSplit that basically said, "What parts of the TRAM do you want to focus on?" and there was a pulldown menu for "knockback", "damage-dealing bones", etc. and it would highlight those in the actual Oni binary data for an animation, and they could type a new decimal value in for damage, or pick a new bone from a popup menu, and the GUI would convert it to hex. That's just a random example of the philosophy of "enabling creativity through user-friendliness", and it's essential to the mindset of anyone who loves Macs. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:31, 25 August 2008 (CEST) | ::::::What happened here? Our new and enthusiastic modder is thrown off by having to absorb 10 screenfuls of technical stuff that's not in his native language (and really, who ''does'' speak hex fluently? ;-). Now, imagine if we had a visual 3D TRAM editor, or even a GUI for OniSplit that basically said, "What parts of the TRAM do you want to focus on?" and there was a pulldown menu for "knockback", "damage-dealing bones", etc. and it would highlight those in the actual Oni binary data for an animation, and they could type a new decimal value in for damage, or pick a new bone from a popup menu, and the GUI would convert it to hex. That's just a random example of the philosophy of "enabling creativity through user-friendliness", and it's essential to the mindset of anyone who loves Macs. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:31, 25 August 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::::::Iritscen, love_Oni is not a fool: http://oni.bungie.org | :::::::Iritscen, love_Oni is not a fool: http://oni.bungie.org/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=9103#p9103. He may not be the best modder out there (like anyone is just starting out), but he is not an "OniVirgin" who is put off by a hex editor. At one point or another most of the modding community is "Busy" for one reason or another with real life. | ||
:::::::#Do you know how much of a pain in the arse it is to create a good GUI? | :::::::#Do you know how much of a pain in the arse it is to create a good GUI? | ||
:::::::#Is it really worth it to spend the time required to make such a GUI? There aren't even a dozen modders at this point, and most of them are at the point where they don't need a GUI (Unless you count OUP as a GUI, but it is really only a glorified hex editor). Would the time spent on creating a superb GUI be more than the time that it would save for the people who use the GUI? | :::::::#Is it really worth it to spend the time required to make such a GUI? There aren't even a dozen modders at this point, and most of them are at the point where they don't need a GUI (Unless you count OUP as a GUI, but it is really only a glorified hex editor). Would the time spent on creating a superb GUI be more than the time that it would save for the people who use the GUI? | ||
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:P.P.P.S. This is unrelated to the above, but I have come to a point where I absolutely have to break virtually all contact with Oni, or else I'll never pick up the pieces of my PhD. I'll post an update when I delete this section, but basically that means: read-only access to the wiki at the most, maybe some updates in the form of links to freshly uploaded stuff, and definitely no chat. | :P.P.P.S. This is unrelated to the above, but I have come to a point where I absolutely have to break virtually all contact with Oni, or else I'll never pick up the pieces of my PhD. I'll post an update when I delete this section, but basically that means: read-only access to the wiki at the most, maybe some updates in the form of links to freshly uploaded stuff, and definitely no chat. | ||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:54, 26 August 2008 (CEST) | ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:54, 26 August 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::Well, I'll miss our lovely chats, geyser | :::Well, I'll miss our lovely chats, geyser *rolling eyes* Obviously I won't spend the time to rebut any of the above accusations since it's going to be erased soon (and I won't miss it). I will just say, re "initiative hijacking", that I am not guilty of that per se, only suggesting something and then finding out someone was already doing it. And you're really daring me to go to town on that Oni modding tool, aren't you? I'm not saying I will, but we'll see what happens when I get to a stage where it's possible. I'd also love to write a manifesto about how programmers usually epically fail at interface design and how they need to think more about the end-user to move the profession forward, but that is really something that, as you point out, I need to demonstrate through action or else shut up about. | ||
:::P.S.: If you can't tell that my edit summary ("you should totally go for it!") was a blatant and silly trap to provoke your annoyance, which you fell squarely into, then you have my condolences | :::P.S.: If you can't tell that my edit summary ("you should totally go for it!") was a blatant and silly trap to provoke your annoyance, which you fell squarely into, then you have my condolences :p | ||
:::P.P.S.: I appreciated your speech on humility that ended with "STFU forever", clearly your plan to stay humble is working. By the way, I'd like to announce that I am changing my name to <big>IRITSCEN</big>. | :::P.P.S.: I appreciated your speech on humility that ended with "STFU forever", clearly your plan to stay humble is working. By the way, I'd like to announce that I am changing my name to <big>IRITSCEN</big>. | ||
:::P.P.P.S: I didn't plan these addendums to match yours in number, but I bet that, even being a coincidence, you find it somehow annoying. I'd just like to say that I hope your whole doctorate thing goes well, if that is indeed the stage you're at. I can hardly say that we're best friends... or even moderate friends... but I think I can call you my worst friend. So I wish you well in your endeavors while you're away. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 22:44, 26 August 2008 (CEST) | :::P.P.P.S: I didn't plan these addendums to match yours in number, but I bet that, even being a coincidence, you find it somehow annoying. I'd just like to say that I hope your whole doctorate thing goes well, if that is indeed the stage you're at. I can hardly say that we're best friends... or even moderate friends... but I think I can call you my worst friend. So I wish you well in your endeavors while you're away. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 22:44, 26 August 2008 (CEST) | ||
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::::I wish myself the best of luck, too. As for you, remember to exercise restraint. Think before you act. | ::::I wish myself the best of luck, too. As for you, remember to exercise restraint. Think before you act. | ||
:::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 03:37, 28 August 2008 (CEST) | :::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 03:37, 28 August 2008 (CEST) | ||
==Cherry picking== | |||
:: | |||
:P.S: ... and what about replacing "serendipity" with "cherry picking"? I think it would be more intuitive. [User:Guido|Guido]] 10:00, 26 October 2008 (CEST) | |||
::Well, the meaning of "[[wikipedia:Cherry_picking|cherry picking]]" was ''really'' not intuitive to ''me'', so I had to look it up. And it's still not clear to me what exactly it means as applied to this wiki (biased sample? WTF?) or why it's more appropriate than "[[wikipedia:Serendipity|serendipity]]". Eventually I meant to replace this with a link to the [[OniGalore_talk:General_disclaimer]], which would be a sort of condensed site map. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:10, 26 October 2008 (CET) | |||
:::It's true that I don't think "cherry picking" is the right phrase to replace "serendipity", but the more important question is what "serendipity" is supposed to mean in the first place. You should be aware that, as fond as you are of "serendipity", geyser, I can confidently say that a lot of native English speakers do not know its meaning, and those who do, like myself, are still at a loss as to what it means when used <u>here</u>. When I first saw that the word was a link, I assumed it would link to [[Special:Random]], not a dictionary definition of the word that still gives it no context.... | |||
:::"'''a link to the [[OniGalore_talk:General_disclaimer]]'''" o.O ...Come again, geyser? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:57, 26 October 2008 (CET) | |||
:Clicking "Random page" has less to do with serendipity than following intrawiki links. The idea is that beyond a certain amount of cross-linking, the wiki virtually "navigates itself", and allows casual/curious readers to end up in unexpected places, through a set of more or less loose associations with what they were initially interested in. Maybe I'm the only one who reads wikis like this (starting with Wikipedia) and enjoys it... Anyway, "serendipity" in the context of our wiki (casual navigation powered by intralinks) is not meant to be self-explanatory right now. The actual thing that's supposed to be featured on the main page is the disclaimer: I used to link to it without the serendipity label, and I will re:link to it eventually, probably without calling it serendipity either. Thus thee serendipity thing is just a placeholder, or at least you can think of it that way. Of course, you can decide to kill that initiative (and delete the disclaimer while you're at it), but I wouldn't do that, or if I did, I'd expect unexpected retribution. My advice is to ignore everything you can ignore, and I'll do my best to ignore bureau-cats and other uncyclopedic spam that is only funny to certain people while on certain drugs --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:04, 26 October 2008 (CET) | |||
::<sigh>Because the Disclaimers page is ''so'' much funnier to ''such'' a larger audience :rolleyes:. The fact that you use the words "uncyclopedic spam" simply blows my mind when you were just talking about [[OniGalore:General disclaimer|this]] page in the same breath. Anyway, what I was trying to ask above was, How is the Disclaimers page in any way connected with your concept of browsing the wiki by serendipity? And don't get jumpy, I never said I was thinking of killing any initiative, I don't attack what I can't even begin to understand :-3. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 01:39, 27 October 2008 (CET) | |||
:::Quite simply, a list of ill side effects is a nice place to start browsing; every ill side effect linking to an article, ideally. Seen that way, the disclaimer has the potential of becoming a condensed site map (and I already told you that). Not in the present form, of course (remember that I was young and stupid when I stole SOW's disclaimer, so comparing your own silliness with it is not to your advantage), but as outlined in the footer and on the talk page (which I also linked to, for Mukade's sake). My own brainstorming and Gumby's should give you an idea of what's cooking. Just don't tell me we have to explain the meaning of every single item, because we all have better things to do right now. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 02:16, 27 October 2008 (CET) | |||
::::Okay, now I get it, at least as much as I'm going to get it, I suppose. But if you think this plan was in any way clear before your last post, hate to tell ya, but it wasn't; don't act like you explained anything on the Disclaimers talk page, it's an incomprehensible list of gibberish right now. Whatever, have fun with it. | |||
::::P.S.: By injecting humor into official wiki pages such as [[OniGalore:Policy|Policy]], I am *trying* to preserve fun while adding functionality, sorry if you don't see it that way, but I daresay most people will; heck, even Wikipedia has [[wikipedia:WP:BEANS|joke pages]] as part of their system of policy articles. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 02:28, 27 October 2008 (CET) | |||
:::::The functionality added by those official pages is nil, and the humor is IMO fairly tasteless, so in a way it's "worse than nothing". You know as well as I do that there's more than enough places on the web that cultivate that kind of humor; no need to develop it here as if our wiki was Yet Another Weak Hu--[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 04:27, 27 October 2008 (CET)mor Site. If you can relate your humor to Bungie or Oni, that will already be more creative, if not better (I mean, since Bungie humor is already not very tasteful, either make the weak s##t part of the Bungie strain or leave it out). That's just my opinion of course, you're a big boy and I wouldn't want to tell you how to run an Oni wiki. ''<-- NOT ASKING FOR A FORMAL POLICY, OF COURSE; JUST TRYING TO APPEAL TO COMMON SENSE: THE WIKI IS NEITHER A SELF-INDULGENT BLOG NOR A PORTAL TO UNCYCLOPEDIA; SO LET'S AT LEAST TRY TO KEEP THE CRAP OUT | |||
:::::"don't act like you explained anything on the Disclaimers talk page, it's an incomprehensible list of gibberish right now" Let's not play dumb and dumber, please. Care to go and read it again? Here's what it says at the bottom: ''<-- OOPS! MISTAKING THE DISCLAIMER FOR THE TALK PAGE WAS A VERY BAD IDEA'' | |||
::::::''The above masterpiece was outrageousy stolen (by me, [[User:Geyser|geyser]]) from [https://www.swo.com/ Science of War and Oppression]. '''I am looking forward to making [[OniGalore talk:General disclaimer|a more Oni-oriented variant]] (you're welcome if you want to help)''', but for now it's [https://www.swo.com/disclaimer.shtml SWO's original version], with a few original entries by myself. No, I don't have permission to redistribute their disclaimer. I'll try to keep it clean :)'' | |||
:::::You have had the ample opportunity to check out SWO's original disclaimer (incomprehensible list of gibberish? ''riiiiiiight'' ''<-- OOPS! SAME MISTAKE AS ABOVE, LOOKING AT THE WRONG PAGE''), as well as the talk related to ours, and the recent contributions by Gumby and myself have made the initiative all the more explicit. Sorry if you didn't get the picture, but I didn't want to insult your intelligence. ''<-- THAT ONE STILL HOLDS, I GUESS. I MEAN, GUMBY GOT THE IDEA ALL BY HIMSELF AND EVEN ADDED THE FIRST HYPERLINK...'' | |||
::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 03:27, 27 October 2008 (CET) | |||
:::::::Non-Oni-related humor... is <u>that</u> what's been burning your biscuits all this time about my jokes? Sorry, I didn't think we had a Bungie-only humor rule here. Let's try not to be so insular and snobbish, 'kay? Let's also try not to be insulting, although it's too late for that today -- having an Editing Policy page, a Copyrights page, or any page defining user rights and roles is a ''hell'' of a lot more useful than your original Disclaimers page. And I certainly read that note at the bottom a while back... how on Earth do you think that wording conveys your plans to make a Site Map out of random Oni phrases on a ''Disclaimer'' page? The longer you continue this back-and-forth, the more ridiculous you look. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 03:35, 27 October 2008 (CET) | |||
:::::::P.S.: In response to your point about not making the wiki a portal to other crap, I don't plan on doing regularly what I did with the Editing Policy page. But to clarify what I meant above in case you missed it, I don't think we need to be insular as a community, where anything that's not Oni or generally Bungie-related is automatically "crap". I specifically put a note in my Talk page about how a community can go too far in that direction and become a barricaded fortress of in-jokes that only the community elite actually understand. I prefer a more approachable take on humor, personally. But I will try to keep the external links to a bare minimum. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 04:27, 27 October 2008 (CET) | |||
:::::::stop bitching or my ninjas will come and find you! [[User:guido|guido]] 18:47, 27 October 2008 (CET) | |||
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