User talk:Geyser

• M3GM talk/info moved to OBD_talk:M3GM
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• General OBD talk moved to OBD_talk:Oni Binary Data for further sorting
  • that includes adding stuff to DAT, static object IDs, the Fight of the Century, all that... ^^
• Pathfinding & Co moved to OBD_talk:AKVA

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Hey Geyser

I sent you an email last week, perhaps you didn't get it.

I was wondering if you have time to take a look at the key binding issue with the OSX version of Oni where the RETURN and ENTER keys are disabled.

I've tried looking for the lookup table, but with no success.

Hope you are well,

EdT

---

^^

I've just turned twenty-f##king-six, and I'm in deep s##t.

Wiki maintenance is about the only hobby I'm allowing myself these days.

Your mail got lost in a heap of spam :

I may discontine the email address @oni2.net altogether in the near future.

There's still the other one I may have told you of.

I've checked out the last version of KP :

definitely a kick-ass proof of concept already,

but there's still much room for improvement.

Converters between FBX, SE3 and Oni are mostly planned out,

I just need to find myself with a free week or something

to actively code and debug it (easy to wish for, hard to get)

Dunno what Ky4yM is up for with his Java-based model/anim exporter

(like, what formats he'll interface with, when and if...)

I'll just try and document the way everything is stored

(basically just writing up Pierre's extracting code

in a human-readable way (thanks Pierre, BTW! ))

That would be my 2 cents for now,

active Oni 2 development will have to wait.

As for the key binding that OMNI screwed up and won't fix :

it's motivating to fix it up, but I can only succeed

if the table looks very much like the one on PC.

(I may even have to read up on Mac hardware a bit...)

If I come around to fix it, you'll be the first to know.

geyser 18:21, 24 November 2006 (CET)

Macs suck anyway ^^

geyser 18:21, 24 November 2006 (CET)

Almost said that KP still needs its coverage here on the wiki,

but perhaps you're not the right person to ask about that ^^

Take care

geyser 18:21, 24 November 2006 (CET)

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I can see you have your hands full, lots of projects and things to do. I'm finding out more Mac Users are playing around with the Dev Mode and that's cool. (For awhile, I thought I was the only one).

Regarding the keybinding issue, can you make a screenshot of the PC lookup table, perhaps that could give me a clue. Something for me to try, until you have the time.

I know the "Mac version of Oni sucks" :-)

In the meantime, I've been having fun at the Oni Central Forums with the "Going places you are not supposed to" and "Trivia" threads.

Take care, don't let your age get you down. (This coming from a guy much older than you!)

EdT

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Gee, how "much older" can you be? ^^

It's not my age that's getting me down,

but my lousy survival skills (sorta).

I'm having big trouble concentrating

on my professional life, even when

drastically cutting down on hobbies.

geyser 16:41, 25 November 2006 (CET)

I haven't checked on OCF at all since

my last post (two months ago? more?)

I'll be back as soon as I'm able. ^^

(more Dev Mode users is cool)

(more OTA players is cool, too)

I forwarded a Mac OTA fan to you this week...

(and I've written a new kick-ass core ^^ )

geyser 16:41, 25 November 2006 (CET)

As for key mapping, I really haven't

looked at it that much for a few months.

I may have to talk to SFeLi a bit,

he's not online much, and neither am I.

I have no Internet at home for the time being

and real-time Oni hacking at the office is,

well, not much of an option...

I'll see what I can do and let you know.

geyser 16:41, 25 November 2006 (CET)

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How old am I? Have you seen my avatar?  :-) Well maybe not that old...

Professional life... balancing it with hobbies can be hard. The solution is to have a 30 hour day, then you'll have enough time for everything. :-)

When you need to have the new OTA core tested on the Mac, let me know.

I got the email from the Mac OTA fan, he was trying to run the manplant script. I never got around to fixing it. So I just pointed him to the scripts on my site and that's the last I heard from him.

On OCF, we're doing silly but fun things, I just started a thread to find hidden rooms in the various levels and post screenshots of them. As you know some of those rooms where used for cutscenes, but othere are just there.

So Oni never gets old, there's always something new to do.

What! you mean at work they won't let you play????

I really appreciate your willingness to help with the Mac key binding issue.

EdT

P.S. how do you get the date stamp on your entries?

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Hm, I sorta assumed you were one of the younger Oni fans ^^

Didn't expect anyone much older than myself, anyway.

(I know of a few exceptions, like Pierre, but I think they're rather rare)

I'm afraid I'll have to make an all different OTA core for you rebels, ^^

because my kick-ass functionality uses chr_focus a lot.

(basically, you focus to a remote "meta-character" every time you call up the menu)

Another limitation is that on PC we can watch show_performance and on Mac, we can't.

(calling up the menu with that built-in hotkey feels really good)

The show_performance-toggled menu is aimed at those who won't use the DevMode.

For those who will... we'll have to decide on what dev-mode variable we'll watch.

We should have a look at the few variables that are registered on the Mac (e.g., HERE)

and see which ones we can toggle with a dev-mode hotkey (hopefully ai2_showlocalmelee).

(you have to be careful about how you check on the state of a preset variable, though)

(on PC, at least, I got quite a headache before I got show_performance to work)

BTW, the functions are still underdocumented: HERE ^^

Oni never gets old: that's good to hear

(even if I don't think any of the hidden rooms would be much news to me ^^ )

As for the messed-up ENTER key, I'll really have to figure out just what to look for, first.

geyser 14:59, 27 November 2006 (CET)

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I guess I'm still young at heart!

Oh well, I guess I can't enjoy the new OTA core until I get a new computer, probably sometime early next year.

Its kinda hard to test the functions since I can't use the console! :-)

Loser posted his melee patch on OCF, right now its for the striker_easy, but he intends to do more.

What's nice is that the patch works fine on the Mac.

EdT 04:56, 30 November 2006 (CET)

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OMG, people are so spoiled... Did I have the console to help me do Oni Menu? ^^

RETURN doesn't work, but other dev mode hotkeys do, and that's all you need...

In order to actually know if they're detectable, you still have to actually script

load-time logic by hand : variable-watching forks, for one thing.

So the console doesn't really enter into it.

Unfortunately, I've done a bit of testing, and it looks like Ctrl+B

doesn't correspond to any script variable (I hoped for ai2_showlocalmelee)

That leaves cheatcode watching as the only alternative to direct hotkeys

(and autocompletion-powered console entries if we can fix RETURN)

Everyone should play Oni on PC, anyway.

geyser 17:55, 30 November 2006 (CET)

Like, I sat down and wrote a Rail Gun mode last night, that will only work on PC.

(crouching with a rifle makes you zoom in till you see the other end of the map)

It really rocks, but right now the plasma rifle is a lot more enjoyable than the MB

(I should add a long-range laser sight to the MB, and that means patched ONWC...)

It rocks so much it really makes me want to make a few squad missions.

(every member of the squad has special weapons and faculties : X-ray vision, sniper sight, reflex time, etc)

You can have none of that on Mac, because chr_focus is not registered.

(the Rail Gun mode relies on camera parameters (cm_...) and gs_fov_set)

geyser 17:55, 30 November 2006 (CET)

Loser's patch is good news (of course it works fine...).

There really oughta be a lot more of those BINA patches.

Alloc and I may craft a complete patch engine some time soon.

geyser 17:55, 30 November 2006 (CET)

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Rail Gun mode sounds cool!

Hopefully early next year, I'll get an Intel Mac with XP, then I'll be able to enjoy Oni fully.

In the meantime, there's enough to do to keep me busy.

So keep coming up with new ways to play Oni!!!

EdT 00:05, 1 December 2006 (CET)

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---

I was looking for the flag location information at:

http://geyser.oni2.net/OniTeamArena/flags/QuickList/

but I get a "not found" error message

Can you give me the correct URL?

EdT 02:06, 13 December 2006 (CET)

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Late followup to the previous conversation:

• On an Intel Mac, Oni should run fine with wine.

No XP needed, hopefully. Please try and report.

• Rail Gun Mode truly rocks now. Whoo-ee.

All scripted, no ONWC modding required.

No Mac version though: that's a no-go...

• I've had a look at the place in the English EXE where the SHIFT key was mistakenly mapped to mousebutton3.

and I'll be damned if I can see an array-like structure.

Actually, they are a bunch of ASM instructions here, another there...

SFeLi and his trusty disassembler were able to make some sense out of all that, but I'm helpless.

Things look even more bleak on Mac since we can't check conjectures.

Your only hope is a guy who can un-ASM the OSX port (SFeLi tried, but gave up because of the different format)

I'll try to catch SFeLi in ICQ, and ask him to "at least" try and find where RETURN is (not) mapped.

So, not much good news, eh? Don't cry. Have some wine instead ^^

geyser 15:23, 13 December 2006 (CET)

As for the flag lists, it's been a while since I moved them here:

http://geyser.oni2.net/OBD/BINA/OBJC/FLAG/

The new URL was posted in the BIP thread. Everything's there.

geyser 15:23, 13 December 2006 (CET)

I went through the recent threads of Oni Central Forum yesterday.

Haven't checked Loser's melee patch yet. Same for his Crazy Rooftops script.

Nevertheless, here's a similar challenge for the whole family:

get to Mukade in 2 minutes (cutscenes not included)

Something I call Storming the Rooftops: good parkour fun.

Once you've done that, you're left with the problem of beating Mukade.

With no hypo, no shield, no weapon, and what health you still have.

geyser 15:23, 13 December 2006 (CET)

And a bit of trivia (actually, a question to Mac users):

Do the Mac resources have the glitch mentioned HERE?

Or is it specific to the PC version (perhaps only the English one?)?

geyser 15:23, 13 December 2006 (CET)

Tosh's highlighter doesn't work at all with Opera (9.01 here).

I might log in some time soon and post these few things myself.

But I'm not too sure of that.

geyser 15:23, 13 December 2006 (CET)

Thanks for the flag URL. I missed the update :-)

Once I get an IntelMac, hopefully early next year, I'll be able to play the PC version.

I plan on getting XP loaded through Bootcamp, so I can use it without any emulation.

I appreciate your effort to solve the keybinding issue, I guess the only hope is that either Take2 or Feral will decide to update Oni for the Intel Mac and fix the bugs.

The Mac does not have the quote glitch that you mentioned. (Hey finally something the Mac got right!!!)

When you have a chance, can you post a movie of the Rail Gun mode?

EdT 04:33, 14 December 2006 (CET)

The advantage of emulated environments is that you don't need to buy/borrow/steal Windows at all.

Alloc plays Oni under Linux, with wine, and it works OK. So does OUP.

As Feral said, Take 2 are the exclusive owners of the Oni franchise (Rockstar and Feral are just borrowing it ^^).

Therefore, it's up to Take2 to decide (financially) whether, e.g., Oni's source should be distributed or not.

However, what we've seen of Take 2 so far doesn't leave much hope in that matter.

I'm sure they have their reasons (actually, rather a lack thereof).

The release of patches is a different story. It depends on what exactly the patch is supposed to "fix".

The network and dev mode were left out intentionally, so one shouldn't expect an official patch for those.

Actual bugs such as Blam we somehow think "ought to be fixed".

We know, however, that Ian suggested to de-Blam Oni way back in 2000 (not sure about the year).

And got no reply.

As for erroneous key mapping, mousebutton3 mismapped to SHIFT, or a non-mapped mouse wheel are one thing.

Getting those right allows one to customise one's controls and to enhance one's "normal" Oni experience.

The ENTER key screwed up by OMNI is a completely different thing.

No one will bind ENTER to a normal-gameplay event. It will only serve for the Developer Mode.

And that's where it might hurt...

Politically, I fear that releasing a patch at this stage would mean to acknowledge the die-hard community,

along with what that community has been doing (hacking, reverse-engineering, resource extracting...).

That sounds like a pretty good reason for the bureaucrats involved not to do anything. Just to be on the safe side.

I think those considerations ought to be kept in mind when contacting Take2 or whoever: we're licence violators.

I might release the script for the Rail Gun Mode some time soon. And a little video just for you Mac-haxxors ^^.

You can view WMVs, can't you?

As for Storming the Rooftops, make it 1:50 to Mukade with the original scripts, bar the cutscenes.

(I played Loser's script, and Mukade is way slow, especially on SP1, where you can outrun him by miles)

Here's something worth a thread on Oni Central Forum (and maybe another video by you, hmm?)

ONI IN SE7EN MINUTES

There's Marathon 1 & 2 in the same thread, as well as Halo, all of them quite enjoyable.

Another idea: a contest of "cat & mouse" pics ^^

geyser 16:46, 14 December 2006 (CET)

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Stamina Rose

As for the Rooftops chase, I hereby initiate a team project... ^^

The idea is to create a music video highlighting CHAPTER 10 . CAT AND MOUSE

One that captures the "hot pursuit" feel of Loser's script.

(the fight with Mukade and the outro are best left out)

The soundtrack would be Yoko Kanno's Stamina Rose (from the GITS:SAC OST).

The video can be recorded in several sessions, but it should feature "seamless" action from SP0 to SP4.

1. .MISSION COMPLETE splashscreen with Mukade holding the disc (no sound)
2. "Loading" progress bar (no sound)
3. SP0 cutscene (first strains)
4. SP1 (beat starts, 0:07.5) speed run to the elevator
5. SP2... (power beat kicks in, 0:45) dramatic speed run to zip line
6. SP3... (music settles down a bit) short run to elevator (final loop) Mukade circles Konoko
7. SP4 (beat stops, 2:44) Mukade teleports away, fade out

The timing is really tight, especially for SP1

• we could slow the track down a bit
• or speed up the cutscenes
• or hack Konoko so that she can run faster
• or just resample the video so that it's not really real-time

I'll give it a "trial run" tonight, maybe (SP1 in under 40 secs sounds really hard) ^^

I'd have to register FRAPS in order to record over 30 seconds, though...

Question for you, EdT. What would YouTube do with a movie in letterbox format? resize it to 4:3?

geyser 20:16, 14 December 2006 (CET)

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Geyser: Lots of things to talk about.

For "Storming the Rooftops", how about using ssg's nocutscene script and adding a 2:00 minute countdown timer?

Of course, if I use the jetpack mode, I should have no problem finishing it under that time limit! :-)

Stamina Rose video, sounds like a cool idea.

Youtube wants the video in 320x240 format.

Regarding Feral, :I asked about the possibility of making a special edition of Oni with the missing levels and multiplayer feature. And making it compatible with the Intel Macs and fixing the known issues, such as the RETURN key. Here is part of their reply to me

if the opportunity arises that we can make an Intel patch we would, however if we added in all of those features I think it would be a pay for patch although the cost would be a lot lower than for a traditional full game. Don't hold your breath waiting for a patch but as I said if we can get all the potential issues out the way and it makes sense to do so we will make a patch.

There is no free version of Wine for the Mac, only a commerical version called Crossover. Anyways, since I need some Windows programs for work, it makes sense for me to get XP.

The 1 minute Oni was funny, I'll post the link on OCF.

Did you mean another video like Oni Universe except make the cutscenes shorter? If so, I am working on another version, it has more cutscenes added, but its hard to match the scenes with the beat of the music. I found the actual music video for Inner Universe http://youtube.com/watch?v=svWHGTMyWt8

That's all for now.

EdT 04:42, 15 December 2006 (CET)

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The mail from Feral sounds nice. Looks like nagging pays off after all... We shall see.

You should check out Darwine rather than CrossOver. There are issues, but it's definitely not commercial...

I've timed the thing yesterday. SP1 to SP4 is just feasible in 2:45, all cutscenes included.

So I'd leave the original zipline sounds for the intro, and start the music at SP1.

If you're serious about "Storming the Rooftops" on a regular basis (that's awesome movement training, sure)...

I'd take Loser's script as a basis, rather than ssg's, because setting up Mukade is more work than bypassing cutscenes...

As for the timer: time limits are frustrating (Loser's script is frustrating), so I won't be doing this.

What I have right now is a nice trainer script with the time (minutes, seconds, tenths) dmsged in a column.

The difference with the timer is that it's not a countdown: just the time since you started the SP.

I can pause the counter during cutscenes (whereas the built-in timer can't be paused).

I can reset the counter (and call restore_game) with certain animations. Flailing resets, too.

Apart from that, I'm invincible, and there are no AI. So I can train for speed with a 100% clear path.

It would be exactly the same with the level logic on: no time limit; time bonuses, maybe (hypos?).

My best times right now are 0:40 from SP1 to the 1st elevator, 0:50 from SP2 to the zipline, and 0:20 from SP3 to the 2nd elevator.

That fits perfectly with Stamina Rose (with all the musical movements of the track, strong beats etc).

As for the "1 minute Oni" video, I meant exactly the "filmlets" suggested by Mango. Sorta like Red VS Blue...

As for your "shorter" storyline video, I might have a few suggestions about syncing.

(make Konoko dive into the acid and land in front of Griffin's office, all in one movement)

Point is, if such a collaboration is OK with you, perhaps it would makes sense to

lay out the timeline of a Hi-Q video here on the wiki, and open it to suggestions on Oni Central Forum...

Another ass-kicking video I had in mind (it's itching, it's itching...) would be set to Rob Zombie's Superbeast.

A little bit in-your-face, but well-fit to illustrate the more badass side of Oni: boss fights.

Barabas, Mukade, Mutant Muro, and more generally, the violent side of the Daodan

"Yeah-hey, I'm the one that you wanted, yeah-hey, I'm your super beast" (Konoko disarming Griffin)

^^

Oh, BTW, I think now I really know who Mukade is... ^^

geyser 01:45, 17 December 2006 (CET)

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Thanks for the the tip about Konoko diving in acid/landing at office, it looks great!

I think it would be fun to make a collaboration of Stamina Rose.

Can you post the Rooftops Trainer script.

Regarding Darwine, a known flaw is Darwine doesn't have working sound at this time, that would spoil the fun of Oni :-)

Care to share who Mukade is? Or you could post that question on OCF "Who is Mukade?"

EdT 04:48, 21 December 2006 (CET)

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This is getting long...

May comment out or delete some of the older stuff...

About Darwine: the lack of sound is a well-known flaw indeed... But.

I thought you were beyond that: I frequently "play" Oni with no sound ^^

About Mukade: the Mukade=Hasegawa theory is controversial but pretty obvious.

I've elaborated that theory in great detail on the ASFO2 thread.

My more recent revelation was somewhat more cynical :

He'd be Marathon's Security Officer AKA Halo's Master Chief ^^

Rather than an ordinary thread, I'd make it a poll, but I need a few more options:

• an android? (interesting...)
• an alien? (Pfhor or S'Pht or Covenant or?)
• the Seventh incarnation of the Leveler? (who?)
• the Laughing Man?
• Obi-wan Kenobi?
• your father?
• etc...

I may have other tips for your "Oni Universe Too"

(or are you planning to change the soundtrack?),

but they're better if they're incremental to a WIP that's visible somewhere.

wanted scenes, timeline of the soundtrack, that kind of thing.

As for Stamina Rose (and Superbeast), I may start a page here...

The trainer (it's not really specific to Rooftops) is no big deal at all.

var int m=0;
var int S=0;
var int s=0;
var int d=0;
func main {
    invincible=1
    fork TickTockReset
    fork TickTock
}
func TickTockReset {
    restore_game
    ai2_kill
    m=0; S=0; s=0; d=0;
    sleep 1
    chr_wait_animation 0 KONOKOjump_flail KONOKOrun_bk_1stepa KONCOMrun_bk_1stepa
    fork TickTockReset
}
func TickTock {
    dmsg " "
    PrintDigit(m); PrintDigit(S); PrintDigit(s); PrintDigit(d);
    sleep 6
    d=d+1; if(d eq 10) {d=0;
        s=s+1; if(s eq 10) {s=0;
            S=S+1; if(S eq 6) {S=0;
                m=m+1; if(m eq 10) m=0;
            }
        }
    }
    fork TickTock
}
func PrintDigit(int digit){
    if(digit eq 0) dmsg "0"
    if(digit eq 1) dmsg "1"
    if(digit eq 2) dmsg "2"
    if(digit eq 3) dmsg "3"
    if(digit eq 4) dmsg "4"
    if(digit eq 5) dmsg "5"
    if(digit eq 6) dmsg "6"
    if(digit eq 7) dmsg "7"
    if(digit eq 8) dmsg "8"
    if(digit eq 9) dmsg "9"
}

In order to use this, you need to have the savepoints recorded properly

(i.e., you need to have played the original level once)

Then remove the original scripts and keep only the above stuff.

The chr_wait_animation may be frustrating if you feel like backpedaling at some point or another.

Also, obviously, the timer will fail to reset if you've shapeshifted to a non-KON character.

Those two can be "fixed" by customizing the chr_wait_anim... line, as usual.

---

Thanks for the trainer script.

The "Oni Universe Take2" is almost done, there are more cutscenes that are edited for a faster pace.

So if you have any more ideas, please let me know ASAP!

Other ideas about Mukade

• Sonny Chiba (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002002/)
• Motoko in disguise (hey that's another poll "who would win in a fight between Konoko and Motoko?)
• askaninja

EdT

---

"Take 2", eh? Nice one... ^^

I can't make any specific suggestions if I can't see anything specific.

For one thing, I don't know if you mean to keep the order chronological.

More dynamic splicing of the cutscenes is a general request: you have that covered.

Another "tip" would be to fit some scenes to the English/Russian lyrics.

(but that basically supposes a largely non-chronological reshuffle)

More generally, telling Oni's story in a linear way, to some soundtrack or another, is rather limited.

Even if you shuffle them. Watching the same cutscenes over and over... the déjà vu is inevitable.

Massively scripted and hacked videos... that's something different.

I'm willing to provide scripts and binaries for "revolutionary" videos.

So revolutionary they'll look like Oni 2 trailers ^^. Your call.

If you don't care about the tenth-of-a-second precision,

the trainer script can be modified as follows:

var float time=0.;
func main {
    invincible=1
    fork TickTockReset
    fork TickTock
}
func TickTockReset {
    restore_game(); ai2_kill(); time= 0;
    chr_wait_animation 0 KONOKOjump_flail KONOKOrun_bk_1stepa KONCOMrun_bk_1stepa
    sleep 13; fork TickTockReset
}
func TickTock {
    dmsg " "
    sleep 6
    time= time + 0.1;
    if(time > 3600.) time= 0.
    timer_start(time);
    fork TickTock
}

The advantage is that when you pause the game, the (frozen) timer will remain visible.

Concerning Mukade, suitable actors would make the list too long if I added them.

(If you look HERE, you'll see that Chiba is indeed very close, alongside Chia Hui Liu)

(so maybe I'll add him)

(there can only be 10 options to pick from, the rest will have to go in a post...)

("Ooh choices")

Motoko is already there, sorta. "askaninja" sounds weird.

geyser 21:20, 25 December 2006 (CET)

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LastmanSAC

This is LastmanSAC, just wanted to say hello.

Do you guys all use Macs, because i've only got the PS2 port.

And is there any way you can run Oni on a Xp or windows?

Keep up the good work?

P.S Mukade isn't a Daoden as far as Muro and Baraas are concerned. But he has the original Daoden that Konoko has inside her. My theory is that Muro has been implanted with a second generation Daoden cell, and that Mukade has the same Daoden strcutre as Konoko, so they can sense each other.

OR something.

Bye

LastmanSAC 14:58, 1 September 2007 (CEST)

---

Hi,

• Oni was released for Windows, Mac, and PS2. Most of the hacking is carried out on PC, but we've managed to release a few fixes/upgrades for the Mac engine (nothing as powerful as the Daodan DLL, though). The PS2 port is not subject to modding at all, sorry.
• Any self-consistent theory concerning Mukade is welcome. My personal idea is that both Mai and Muro are both 2nd-gen and thus much closer genetically to the 1st-gen Mukade than to each other. That said, the telepathy in CHAPTER 12 . SINS OF THE FATHER doesn't have to be 100% real.
• Not sure what you mean by "Mukade isn't a Daodan as far as Muro and Barabas are concerned": that neither Muro nor Barabas know that Mukade is a Daodan?

geyser 22:46, 3 September 2007 (CEST)

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Your theory on Mukade probably makes more sense. And as for "Mukade isn't a Daoden..." i meant that Mukade is from a different branch of the Daoden...family, and that he and Konoko share a telepathic bond because of their being part of the same family. Whether Mai is 1st or 2nd gen is probably immaterial. Muro and Barrabas possibly have a more refined daoden cell, that although appears to be more docile (as far as a daoden can be) may be easier to control and thus keep a semblance of homo sapien-ness. I think that the imago stage of Muro, may be a imperfection in his generation of daoden, as Konoko didn't need to transform to beat him (more evidence for the case). Perhaps what the Elite Strikers have is yet another generation of Daoden, thus are easily beaten by Konoko. They are refined even further, yet capable of retaining the humanity (I.E, emotional conrtol) Konoko is yet to lose (completely). By the way, maybe Mukade lead the raid that captured Muro and the Daoden cells and realised their potential, but kept it from Mukade. Or not. i hope that makes sense... --LastmanSAC 13:01, 7 September 2007 (CEST)

• No matter how much sense "my theory" makes, it's always better to have several parallel theories.
  However, your points would make more sense if you proofread them a bit more. Have a look at this:

"Mukade [...] realised their potential, but kept it from Mukade." OK now, who kept it from whom?

• An Imago is "perfect" in the sense that it is a final stage, but that also means it stopped evolving.
  Therefore a symbiosis in progress (e.g., Mai's) can be seen as superior to Imago in terms of potential.
• I don't think it's a good idea to pack Oni with 2nd-rate symbiotes (Elites). It trivializes the Daodan.
  If anything, I'd assume that the Ninja are a successful breed of super-soldiers (Daodandroids ^^).
• My point about Mai and Muro is that there's the same bond between Mukade and Muro as between Mukade and Mai.
  Muro and Mai are both closer to Mukade than to each other (genetically), hence the more intense telepathy/whatever.

geyser 03:42, 9 September 2007 (CEST)

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• About super-soldiers, HERE is a suitable statement by "chef" (Hardy LeBel).
• But I don't see why Muro and Mai should differ a lot. The commune idea is that they are (two-egg-)twins.
  Additional: Kerr talked about two prototypes.
  I think commune scientific is again that a test serial works the same type. Improvements/Limitations in a second run.
  So, genetically, shouldn't Muro and Mai feel more connected to each other?

Paradox-01 19:14, 9 September 2007 (CEST)

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• Hardy's statement is about Mukade, not the Ninja. I think there's a fundamental difference between the two ^_^
  I don't like the tiger analogy (tigers just smell each other's pee), but the idea of an "uncontrolled" bond is nice.
  Whether it's pheromones or "telepathy" (with a touch of subjectivity), neither one totally controls the "messages".
• As long they are not perfect twins, siblings are usually further apart from each other than from their parents ^_^
  That's just genetic recombination at work: one of the main mechanisms of biodiversity, the other being mutation.
  So Muro and Mai could feel each other, but a lot less intensely than they would feel a Daodanned Hasegawa.
• Of course, Mukade=Hasegawa is not the only explanation of the Mai-Mukade bond.
  It could be that Mai's "killer sense" was disrupted through denial when Mukade died.
  Still, the total absence of bond between Mai and Muro or Barabas is disturbing.
  Also note that the senseloop between Shinatama and Mai is one-way only.

geyser 22:06, 9 September 2007 (CEST)

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Sorry about that, i've just been real tired lately.

• Anyway i meant that Mukade tried to keep the Daoden cells a secret, but Muro found out once he took control of the Syndicate

(which i imagine, would of been pretty tough without already being implanted with a Daoden cell)

and used Synicate scientists to refine the Daoden cells further, not knowing that Mukade had already implanted one in himself

(and possibly his Ninjas - as you suggested).

• I think that the Syndicate was falling apart - as well as the TCTF (relatively speaking) - and that each class of unit was from a different faction inside the Syndicate and that towards the time of Muro's leadership - fought each other constantly, like wolves in a pack.

So Mukade would want to get an advantage over others. This still begs an answer to the question " Why is Mukade weaker then the rest of the Daoden( if he is one)?"

• But taking a new path entirely - perhaps Bungie just wanted that level (Tiger by the tail) to be more exciting by putting in that "emotion link" .

Perhaps the bond between Konoko and Mukade is a kind of "ability" that Konoko used instinctivley when she chased after Mukade?

• I don't think there is that much evidence to suggest that Mai and Muro are related (genetically) at all, it just says in game that they where brother and sister - which can mean that they where bred at the same time by their "parents", Hasegawa and Jamie. Which leaves a lot of room to maneuver with all kinds of theories.

...a purple moon over a blackened land...as it where.

LastmanSAC 08:26, 16 September 2007 (CEST)

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Re. Looks Like I forgot all about that last post of yours. Short attention span or something. Mea culpa.

• By "Tiger by the tail" you of course mean CHAPTER 10 . CAT AND MOUSE. I've been through the multiple interpretations already.

I quoted Hardy and I moderated the pheromonal/telepathic hypothesis with possible psychological effects.

• Your idea of a pack of wolves is incorrect. There's a strong leader, and no fights except for succession.

Neither were there rival factions under Muro, IMO. Classes are normal in an elaborate paramilitary group.

As for what was falling apart and why, maybe have a look HERE (work in progress, subject to change)

(it's just a summary of what has been repeatedly stated on ASFO2 and more or less agreed upon)

• You're making a point about adoption, even though from Hasegawa's tale I rather have the opposite impression:

that parental care was somehow secondary to the Hasegawas during their fateful excursion into the Zone.

They were prepared to be branded enemies of the state, regardless of the consequences for their children.

Such carelessness is not too typical for young parents, and even less typical for adoptive parents.

BTW, that's one of the many points that seem to indicate that Hasegawa's story is made (or dreamt) up.

That said, I think there's enough evidence of Mai and Muro being Hasegawa's children (e.g., the hair).

• I don't think of Mukade as weaker than either Mai or Muro. He could kick Muro's ass any time. Or Mai's.

I already elaborated on that and on the corollaries (why Muro tolerated him, and why he gave in to Mai).

• If Mukade had full control of the Daodan (like, he was the one who staged the raid on Hasegawa's lab)

and didn't want Muro to find out or ever pose a threat, then whom exactly did he expect to fool?

I mean, if Mukade doesn't kill Muro or lock him away, then how could the Daodan remain a secret?

For whoever kidnapped Muro, the obvious thing to do was to implant his (Muro's) Chrysalis. IMO.

• As for the Ninja, they were IMO not Daodan-enhanced. They were not even human. They were androids. ^_^
• "...a purple moon over a blackened land...as it where." Do you mean "as it were?" Shouldn't it be "as it was?"

"Purple haze" is one of the coolest-looking atmospheric effects in OTA. We haven't tried the moon yet :)

geyser 01:20, 28 September 2007 (CEST)

whoa whoa whoa! I forgot about this completely - just came here to check your "Black Eyed Teeth" thing and remembered. so, it looks like you got me, but i'll try and figure a way out of it. (remember i'm working with only the data one can glean from a PS2) okay- you're right about the wolf thing, but i just wanted to point out that Muro probably had to fight to get to the top, then killed most of the old leaders and instated his own loyal followers prior to the vents of Oni. Mukade probably wouldn't of been top dog of the "Ninja part" of the syndicate back then, just a standard infiltrator who grabbed a vial of something that would come in handy for gainnig favour when his superiors wanted to promote someone(this is based on nothing)later. Then when the "old syndicate" realised Muro's abilities they raised him as a weapon over a few years(a secret weapon, from mere "green" class soldiers like Mukade) and then there's the whole "turning on the bad master thing" where everyone who used to lead the Syndicate got killed by Muro (with Mukade as one of his followers) . Anyway, when the dust cleaared, Muro was king, his faithful Mukade the top ninja, and everything starting to look good for the Syndicate. Mukade would of then known what Muro was, and the significence of his stolen "vial" understood - cue a Mukade who had Daoden abilities that were less evolved then Muro's, Muro may or may not of known of Mukade's "vial" for the entire of the "syndicat uprising" (terrible, i know). I was thinking that Hasegawa created Mai and Muro after the incident in the "WPS", as clones (for want of a better word) with some of Hasegawa's genes and Jamie's genes. Perhaps Hasegawa made Mai and Muro more susceptible to Daoden "infection". As for that little tagline, it ain't got nothing to do with Oni man.

(I eagerly await your systematic destruction of my statements, but it's late and i've got school tomorrow so i really don't have any more time to make it better) Cheers.

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Placeholders. Right.

Subject: Restless Souls/Reconstruction/Gapfilling‎; 20:24 . . Geyser (Talk | contribs) (Reverted edits by 213.211.227.113 (Talk); changed back to last version by 88.72.160.74)

Any reasons for that? He/she fixed a lot of spelling mistakes. And the formula + the "thatsnotsexylink" looks more like placeholders to me, because he/she removed them with the last edit.

ssg

Are you kidding? o_O

The spelling mistakes were fixed in an automatic way, probably with a spellchecker. Worthless.

Maybe I overreacted, but it seems to me that all four edits were cases of spam/vandalism.

If anything, how can we tolerate users who include that kind of picture in our pages?

So what if he removed it 2 seconds later? Oh, so those "placeholders" were "jokes"?

Those are the kind of jokes that make people doubt the joker's good will forever...

The person who did this has been behaving rather weirdly on the IRC channel, too.

I've analyzed his edits together with paradox-01 (the author of RS) and Alloc.

Have another look at those edits and talk to Alloc if you want more info.

geyser 22:45, 10 September 2007 (CEST)

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Well, I've checked the history:

1st edit: fixed spelling mistakes

2nd edit: fixed spelling mistakes + added formula

3rd edit: added link (I didn't watch the pic) + deleted formula

4th edit: deleted link

The last edit was clean. After your "rollback" the mistakes are there again. That's why I asked.

Ssg 23:07, 10 September 2007 (CEST)

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Rollbacks undo all edits by a user in a row, unlike manual reverts.

In this case, it was IMO appropriate to revert all four edits.

• There's the image, of course. The image was already enough.
• The "formula" was nothing like a real formula. Plain weird.
• The "fixed spelling" introduced a number of new mistakes (!)

Therefore I think it was just a (bad) spellchecker routine.

It is not critical to fix the spelling of RS pages,

because they'll be translated in-place anyway.

Voilà.

geyser 02:09, 11 September 2007 (CEST)

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The "fixed spelling" introduced a number of new mistakes (!)

Now I'm curious. What new mistakes?

Ssg 11:31, 11 September 2007 (CEST)

• My bad. No new mistakes. I overreacted + didn't bother to check. Shame on me.

At first sight I found "womöglich", "nichtsdestotrotz" and "sowas" unlikely.

• Actually, I didn't mean to revert the first two edits at first...

After the rollback, I guess I sorta made up those "new" mistakes.

• Basically, I didn't want to make a new edit just to restore that.

Because it would have meant a step in the direction of the joker.

geyser 21:03, 11 September 2007 (CEST)

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Two more cents from me (the author of RS).

I talked to him. Eventually he admitted to those sudden actions.

He tried editing seriously, then toyed with wiki functions (formula), and finally put and deleted the link. (Bad Joke ^TM, indeed)

talk with freddy aka Manu

I "reallowed" him to proofread my texts from now on, but in any case not more than that.

He won't do such a thing again. (PS: Yes, he is a bored, strange person)

Paradox-01 16:46, 11 September 2007 (CEST)

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...apropos placeholders

What was wrong with the Syndicate troop links?

Paradox-01 13:52, 14 September 2007 (CEST)

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OBD again

Your image link is broken.

(Go here to fix it: TRAM/raw0x34

(above wiki's "Contents" box))

http://geyser.oni2.net/obd/tram/raw0x34/SHINZOMidle1.png

ssg

Done (if it wasn't so easy I'd have replaced it with a HexRow table instead).

A for your table, I think the implicit dequantization (from short integer to degrees) is confusing.

Also, you use "position" for offsets first, and then for Euler angles, which is... er... confusing.

Also, the "element" notation is misleading since it can be confused with the fixed-size array elements.

I'm also not sure raw0x34 etc is a systematic enough name for the raw parts. Maybe prefer TRAM_0 etc.

Thanks a lot for your ongoing effort.

geyser 03:44, 14 September 2007 (CEST)

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>>to table, postion, elements:

Well, that's why it's on the wiki. Alter it, if you think something is wrong.

ssg

Certainly. More generally though, don't try to beat all the data into that table format.

As you know, in some specific cases the information can be shown in more didactic ways.

For example, with your method you often show one (non-representative) resource/element.

86.67.12.43 14:48, 14 September 2007 (CEST)

>>to raw0x34:

Are you kiddin'? Who came up with that "wonderful" name?

ssg

I came up with "raw0x###" while working on the TRAM. For the TRAM it made perfect sense as a substitute for "TRAM/thingamajig_part"

However, the absolute offsets of the RAW addresses in the DAT resources make no sense for AKVA and AGDB, which are arrays.

Therefore I've come to the idea that we should simply index the different kinds of raw parts in the normal order of occurrence.

For example, AKVA, BINA, OSBD, SNDD, and TXMP only have one types of RAW part, hence BINA0, SNDD0, OSBD0, TXMP0, and AKVA0.

AGDB has 2 different liks-to-RAW, hence AGDB0 and AGDB1. And TRAM would have TRAM0, TRAM1, TRAM2, TRAM3, ..., TRAMB, TRAMC.

Never mind that, there are not that many cross-links right now, so we can always rename pages around once the work is done.

Man, do I love this talk page ^^

86.67.12.43 14:48, 14 September 2007 (CEST)

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I would like to ignore the useless (IMO) "OBD:BINA/OBJC" site.

It contains no new information plus the overview table is already part of the OBD:BINA file.

Ssg 13:08, 20 September 2007 (CEST)

And I'm not happy about what you did to IDXA :)

Will you organize MELE/CMBT/etc in the same way?

You're totally free to reorganize OBD as you wish.

Just be careful about just how you "ignore" pages.

OBJC is no big deal, and I think it's low-priority.

As a 4-character tag I think it deserves an entry.

I would rather have complete reference ASAP.

No matter how redundant or ugly.

geyser 21:18, 20 September 2007 (CEST)

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What's wrong with the IDXA sites? I like them.

And I like the OBJC page. :)

Why should I organize MELE/CMBT/etc in the same way as IDXA??? I don't follow. There's only one MELE file and one only CMBT file and not seven.

MELE/CMBT/etc are all objects that can be found in an OBJC. Therefore you could have treated them as 16 different kinds of OBJC.

"Ignore" means no link to it. (I'm going to link to the BINA site plus an anchor to the OBJC table, I guess)

IMO you should not mix the 16 subtypes of OBJC with the 5 big subtypes of BINA: OBJC, ONIE, PAR3, SABD, and TMBD.

You had done so in Oni Stuff, but I always thought it was confusing to neglect the OBJC level of hierarchy.

Then again, do everything as you see fit. You're overloading my reflexes now, but we'll see afterwards ^_^

Ssg 23:59, 20 September 2007 (CEST)

One thing I'm still very unhappy about is the image names. PSpc becomes pspc, and then Pspc... WTF?

It would have been so much more consistent if you capitalized all the files the same as in Oni... Sigh.

geyser 22:24, 22 September 2007 (CEST)

"Oncc m.gif", "Bin r do.gif", "Bin r ch.gif"... Looking at those names, I have no idea what they mean.

And BTW, I'm OK if you don't want to use HexRow, but... is there anything wrong with PNG versus GIF?

geyser 22:29, 22 September 2007 (CEST)

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For outstanding header and footer design:

Ssg 22:48, 25 September 2007 (CEST)

D I E

(should be "tongue", BTW)

geyser 17:02, 26 September 2007 (CEST)

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Images

Hi geyser, you really need to move all this talk out to an archive :)

Well, as you can see, I went a little nuts with the wiki, but I am only putting ideas out there, to be cleaned up later if you don't like :)

See the talk page for the main page for more.

Iritscen 17:26, 16 January 2008 (CET)

A question about your Oni cycles: Is the blue "O" and the gold-silver wiki icon designed by yourself? We just want to clarify stuff.

Paradox-01 21:45, 16 January 2008 (CET)

Obviously the "O" is the same logo as THIS ONE. I just flipped it around and inverted the color channels.

(although, come to think of it, I actually did edit it a bit because the "halo" was missing a few pixels)

geyser 23:11, 16 January 2008 (CET)

So... is the blue "O" official, i.e., from Bungie? That's the main question.

Iritscen 16:21, 17 January 2008 (CET)

Dunno, duncare. I got them from Google Image :)

Can't find them now for some reason, either one.

The smaller O (32x32) is from the Godgames site.

The bigger one (128x128) seems to be from Feral.

Both of them supposedly created by/for Bungie.

The ones we use have been edited by myself.

geyser 02:08, 20 January 2008 (CET)

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"Oni"

The page at "Oni" should probably be devoted to info about the video game (release date, reception, deadline difficulties, etc.). Would you mind if I moved your page from "Oni" to "Oni (name)"? Or something similar? Also, I think the item about Oni's title at the bottom of Names should link to that page, although technically you don't address the real origin of the name there -- that is, it sounded like a cool working title and only later was made the official name. --Iritscen 17:11, 29 January 2008 (CET)