Oni2:A Storyline/PostSummary1: Difference between revisions

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Pages 1-15 of the thread "A Storyline for Oni 2" from OCF (the first half) are summarized below, for eventual further summarization on the Oni2:Storyline page. The summary of pages 15-30 is found [[Oni2:Storyline/PostSummary2|HERE]].
Pages 1-15 (the first half) of the thread "A Storyline for Oni 2" from OCF are summarized below, for eventual further summarization on the Oni2:A Storyline page. The summary of pages 16-30 is found [[Oni2:A Storyline/PostSummary2|here]].


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{| class="wikitable" align="center"  
{| class="wikitable" align="center"  
! Post #
! Post #
! Post Link
<!--! Post Link-->
! Poster
! Poster
! Topic(s)
! Keywords
! Summary
! Summary
|-
|-
| 1
| 1
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=0#post_40 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=0#post_40 here]-->
| geyser
| geyser
| Daodan
| Daodan
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| 2
| 2
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=0#post_42 here]
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| TNT
| TNT
| Daodan
| Daodan
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|-
| 3
| 3
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=0#post_45 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Daodan
| Daodan
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|-
| 4
| 4
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=0#post_68 here]
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| owldreamer
| owldreamer
| Project
| Project
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|-
| 5
| 5
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=0#post_72 here]
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| Script 10000
| Script 10000
| --
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|-
|-
| 6
| 6
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=0#post_75 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Project
| Project
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|-
|-
| 7
| 7
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=0#post_77 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=0#post_77 here]-->
| Kumo
| Kumo
| Project/Story
| Project, MainChar
| What tools would we use? What if the game is told from the POV of a friend of Mai's? The Chrysalis is being used as a cure, but only now are the dangers becoming known, and she seeks out Mai for answers.
| What tools would we use? What if the game is told from the POV of a friend of Mai's? The Chrysalis is being used as a cure, but only now are the dangers becoming known, and she seeks out Mai for answers.
|-
|-
| 8
| 8
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=0#post_82 here]
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| owldreamer
| owldreamer
| Project
| Project
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|-
|-
| 9
| 9
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=0#post_88 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Project/Setting
| Project, Settings
| Also mentions Blender. Designs aren't in a format ready to post yet. Training level could be set in a natural cave, and player is helped to "remember" the controls and their abilities. Some settings: Vansam City, under control of government, not totally post-apocalyptic; a dingy nightclub in a warehouse; a lounge in a skyscraper; various streets and suburbs; a "man hunt" [for Mai?] in a mall closed for the night; and lots of natural settings with trees and grass. Likes idea of chaos in serene nature settings.
| Also mentions Blender. Designs aren't in a format ready to post yet. Training level could be set in a natural cave, and player is helped to "remember" the controls and their abilities. Some settings: Vansam City, under control of government, not totally post-apocalyptic; a dingy nightclub in a warehouse; a lounge in a skyscraper; various streets and suburbs; a "man hunt" in a mall closed for the night; and lots of natural settings with trees and grass. Likes idea of chaos in serene nature settings.
|-
|-
| 10
| 10
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=0#post_89 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story/Gameplay/Daodan
| MainChar, Mai, Gameplay, Daodan, Vehicles
| Mai would not have the answers for the Daodan because she was ignorant in Oni 1. Mai should be main character since she has the appeal and the powers; Chrysalis use would be opposed by public; gov't puts project under wraps, some people try to investigate. Wishes for driveable vehicles, palpable superpowers (breaking stuff with fists, super-high jumps, throwing energy balls), capable allies in combat, ability to disguise as allies, parts of game where you have to wear disguise. Mentions that some of this is on Pierre's to-do list for KP. Elaborates on "chenille" referring to restructuring of the body's internals while the outside remains the same (like a chrysalis) until it's time for the new being to emerge.
| Mai would not have the answers for the Daodan because she was ignorant in Oni 1. Mai should be main character since she has the appeal and the powers; Chrysalis use would be opposed by public; gov't puts project under wraps, some people try to investigate. Wishes for drivable vehicles, palpable superpowers (breaking stuff with fists, super-high jumps, throwing energy balls), capable allies in combat, ability to disguise as allies, parts of game where you have to wear disguise. Mentions that some of this is on Pierre's to-do list for KP. Elaborates on "chenille" referring to restructuring of the body's internals while the outside remains the same (like a chrysalis) until it's time for the new being to emerge.
|-
|-
| 11
| 11
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=1#post_96 here]
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| TNT
| TNT
| Story
| MainChar
| Likes Kumo's idea of main character not being Mai. Super-powered playable Mai would be overpowered. If the gov't is not using Chrysalises yet, then that's why the main char. seeks Mai out.
| Likes Kumo's idea of main character not being Mai. Super-powered playable Mai would be overpowered. If the gov't is not using Chrysalises yet, then that's why the main char. seeks Mai out.
|-
|-
| 12
| 12
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=1#post_98 here]
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| Pierre
| Pierre
| Gameplay
| Gameplay, Vehicles
| Vehicles are easy to code, but of limited usefulness; would rather drive a "battle hardsuit from [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xnKPegu0SA Bubblegum Crisis]" using [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sOC8gi2Bik ZOE 2]'s controls. Laments lack of artists. Affirms that he has done, or will do, the other things that geyser listed, except for allies and disguises. Overpower mode should be gauge-limited, not time-limited.
| Vehicles are easy to code, but of limited usefulness; would rather drive a "battle hardsuit from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xnKPegu0SA Bubblegum Crisis]" using [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sOC8gi2Bik ZOE 2]'s controls. Laments lack of artists. Affirms that he has done, or will do, the other things that geyser listed, except for allies and disguises. Overpower mode should be gauge-limited, not time-limited.
|-
|-
| 13
| 13
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=1#post_101 here]
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| ssg
| ssg
| --
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| 14
| 14
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=1#post_102 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Gameplay/Daodan
| Gameplay, Daodan, Mai
| Mai won't be overpowered because she'll be matched up with many strong opponents and weapons. They will be easy to defeat one-on-one, but they'll be attacking in groups to make it challenging. "Butterfly" Mai should be similar to her original form, rather than uglifying her like Imago Muro. Maybe a hair color change when she transforms. Admits that Imago Muro was pretty overpowered because he was mostly invulnerable and reaffirms desire to time-limit Mai's powers.
| Mai won't be overpowered because she'll be matched up with many strong opponents and weapons. They will be easy to defeat one-on-one, but they'll be attacking in groups to make it challenging. "Butterfly" Mai should be similar to her original form, rather than uglifying her like Imago Muro. Maybe a hair color change when she transforms. Admits that Imago Muro was pretty overpowered because he was mostly invulnerable and reaffirms desire to time-limit Mai's powers.
|-
|-
| 15
| 15
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=1#post_107 here]
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| Kumo
| Kumo
| Story/Gameplay
| MainChar, Gameplay, Mai, Daodan
| Acknowledges that Mai won't know much about the Chrysalis either, but she is searching for the truth while main char. searches for Mai. Suggests that they only meet at the last boss fight, and that maybe the game be playable with both characters. Maybe gov't hasn't put Chrysalises to public use yet, but is experimenting on its police officers. What if limit on Daodan use is not health (overhealing with hypos) but rather "damage taken and time fought", allowing mid-battle transformations? Changing Mai's hair color is blasphemous. Using disguises would slow down an action game.
| Acknowledges that Mai won't know much about the Chrysalis either, but she is searching for the truth while main char. searches for Mai. Suggests that they only meet at the last boss fight, and that maybe the game be playable with both characters. Maybe gov't hasn't put Chrysalises to public use yet, but is experimenting on its police officers. What if limit on Daodan use is not health (overhealing with hypos) but rather "damage taken and time fought", allowing mid-battle transformations? Changing Mai's hair color is blasphemous. Using disguises would slow down an action game.
|-
|-
| 16
| 16
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=1#post_110 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Gameplay/Story
| Gameplay, MainChar, Vehicles, Daodan, Mai
| Mai's hair shape should stay the same, but something like a color change is needed for the transformation (makes reference to [[wikipedia:Dragon Ball|DBZ's]] Super Saiyan transformation). "Last boss fight" - you mean, fight ''against'' Mai? And wouldn't main char. be much weaker than Mai? Likes his suggestion of a more adventure-esque side story with a female investigator. "Land vehicle" he mentioned earlier would be like Konoko's bike in Oni 1; maybe you can jump onto it and ride it hands-free. Is fine with idea of gauge-limited overpower mode, but wants gauge to increase over course of game. Elaborates on interactive environment: kicking boxes, climbing ropes and some walls, breaking some objects with bare fists and some only when in overpower, and some only with heavy weapons. Also taking injury from falling down stairs (triggering rag doll physics), from being driven into wall by attack, or from running into closed door; suggests ways to prevent this from being an annoyance. Fast-moving character has to lean into turns or else they will slide/fall (at least when on bike), and with proper velocity one can run around the walls of a room. References racing games that use friction and "local gravity" to allow loop-de-loops and such.
| Mai's hair shape should stay the same, but something like a color change is needed for the transformation (makes reference to [[wikipedia:Dragon Ball|DBZ's]] Super Saiyan transformation). "Last boss fight" - you mean, fight ''against'' Mai? And wouldn't main char. be much weaker than Mai? Likes his suggestion of a more adventure-esque side story with a female investigator. "Land vehicle" he mentioned earlier would be like Konoko's bike in Oni 1; maybe you can jump onto it and ride it hands-free. Is fine with idea of gauge-limited overpower mode, but wants gauge to increase over course of game. Elaborates on interactive environment: kicking boxes, climbing ropes and some walls, breaking some objects with bare fists and some only when in overpower, and some only with heavy weapons. Also taking injury from falling down stairs (triggering rag doll physics), from being driven into wall by attack, or from running into closed door; suggests ways to prevent this from being an annoyance. Fast-moving character has to lean into turns or else they will slide/fall (at least when on bike), and with proper velocity one can run around the walls of a room. References racing games that use friction and "local gravity" to allow loop-de-loops and such.
|-
|-
| 17
| 17
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=1#post_113 here]
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| Kumo
| Kumo
| Gameplay
| Gameplay, MainChar, Daodan, Mai
| Likes idea of DBZ-style [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azQWUAtGUmQ#t=0m40s power-up scene]. Clarifies that he meant fighting alongside Mai. In response to main char. being weaker, maybe (again, referencing DBZ) the newer generation of Chrysalis reaches maturity faster. Likes wall-running idea, suggests using it for counter-attacks a la Double Dragon [I couldn't find video of that, but here's [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy59xjF21Rs#t=2m44s a video] of Double Dragon III, a game that predated Street Fighter II -- some of these moves look pretty familiar ^_^]. But wall flips would be hard to do without being able to see behind you. Suggests that Mai's hair grow when she transforms, and float in the air.
| Likes idea of DBZ-style power-up scene. Clarifies that he meant fighting alongside Mai. In response to main char. being weaker, maybe (again, referencing DBZ) the newer generation of Chrysalis reaches maturity faster. Likes wall-running idea, suggests using it for counter-attacks a la Double Dragon [I couldn't find video of that, but here's [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy59xjF21Rs#t=2m44s a video] of Double Dragon III, a game that predated Street Fighter II -- some of these moves look pretty familiar ^_^]. But wall flips would be hard to do without being able to see behind you. Suggests that Mai's hair grow when she transforms, and float in the air.
|-
|-
| 18
| 18
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=1#post_115 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Gameplay/Story
| Gameplay, Daodan, Hasegawa
| A "proximity map" in corner of screen would let you see who is behind you. Asks Pierre if a black hole gun is doable. Long floating hair would obscure player's view. Did Hasegawa really start working with Daodan only after Jamie died? Was only months or days [really?] before Syndicate raided his lab and found his two Chrysalises. Perhaps he lied in his diary.
| A "proximity map" in corner of screen would let you see who is behind you. Asks Pierre if a black hole gun is doable. Long floating hair would obscure player's view. Did Hasegawa really start working with Daodan only after Jamie died? Was only months or days [actually, Konoko was orphaned at age 3, which gives us up to 3 years between Jamie dying and Mai being taken from her dad] before Syndicate raided his lab and found his two Chrysalises. Perhaps he lied in his diary.
|-
|-
| 19
| 19
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=1#post_118 here]
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| owldreamer
| owldreamer
| Project
| Project, Vehicles
| Points out that natural settings are hard to make, hence the advantage to knowing game development before writing a story. Posts pic of his Hikari model. Fighting with a hardsuit hand-to-hand would be boring.
| Points out that natural settings are hard to make, hence the advantage to knowing game development before writing a story. Posts pic of his Hikari model [without naming her, causing confusion]. Fighting with a hardsuit hand-to-hand would be boring.
|-
|-
| 20
| 20
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=1#post_119 here]
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| Alloc
| Alloc
| --
| --
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| 21
| 21
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=2#post_122 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Project
| Project
| Acknowledges difficulty of natural settings, but would be content with how Serious Engine did it three years ago (2002). And anyway, fun is most important factor, not graphics. Likes some of Hikari's model, but arms are too small. Is it supposed to be Mai?
| Acknowledges difficulty of natural settings, but would be content with how Serious Engine did it three years ago [2002]. And anyway, fun is most important factor, not graphics. Likes some of owldreamer's model, but arms are too small. Is it supposed to be Mai?
|-
|-
| 22
| 22
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=2#post_123 here]
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| owldreamer
| owldreamer
| Project/Story
| Project, MainChar
| Is not Mai. Thinks original Mai model should be used, or else a new character be created for sequel. Arms are following standard anime proportions. Hair was difficult to simulate. Will convert to in-game model when done. Doesn't think much of sequel having powered-up Mai.
| Is not Mai. Thinks original Mai model should be used, or else a new character be created for sequel. Arms are following standard anime proportions. Hair was difficult to simulate. Will convert to in-game model when done. Doesn't think much of sequel having powered-up Mai.
|-
|-
| 23
| 23
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=2#post_125 here]
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| Onifan
| Onifan
| --
| --
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|-
| 24
| 24
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=2#post_129 here]
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| Pierre
| Pierre
| Gameplay
| Gameplay, Vehicles
| Agrees with notion of DBZ-style power-up sequence. Explains difficulty of "local gravity". Isn't sure what geyser wants from a black hole gun. Fails to see issue with strong character needing strong opponents. Fighting in suit would be basically identical to regular melee fighting, but flashier, so why would it be boring?
| Agrees with notion of DBZ-style power-up sequence. Explains difficulty of "local gravity". Isn't sure what geyser wants from a black hole gun. Fails to see issue with strong character needing strong opponents. Fighting in suit would be basically identical to regular melee fighting, but flashier, so why would it be boring?
|-
|-
| 25
| 25
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=2#post_130 here]
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| Pierre
| Pierre
| Gameplay
| Gameplay
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|-
| 26
| 26
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=2#post_131 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Gameplay
| Gameplay
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|-
| 27
| 27
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=2#post_136 here]
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| Pierre
| Pierre
| Gameplay
| Gameplay
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|-
| 28
| 28
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=2#post_138 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Settings, MainChar, Hikari, Mai
| Hadn't realized Hikari was an SLD, that explains the face. How tall is she compared to Mai? Just read [http://www.haibane.de/oni/ owldreamer's proposal] for an Oni 2. Likes it, but it's adventurey, not actiony; should be a separate game, maybe with Hikari and Mai glimpsing each other throughout game and meeting at the end. Taking place 20 years after Oni is what he had in mind, too, but not with Mai dead, but in fact the same apparent age as in Oni.
| Hadn't realized Hikari was an SLD, that explains the face. How tall is she compared to Mai? Just read owldreamer's proposal (<nowiki>http://www.haibane.de/oni/</nowiki>, dead link) for an Oni 2. Likes it, but it's adventurey, not actiony; should be a separate game, maybe with Hikari and Mai glimpsing each other throughout game and meeting at the end. Taking place 20 years after Oni is what he had in mind, too, but not with Mai dead, but in fact the same apparent age as in Oni.
|-
|-
| 29
| 29
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=2#post_142 here]
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| Kumo
| Kumo
| Story
| Gameplay, Mai
| Didn't want action-less story, maybe there are street fights. Also wants Mai to be alive for sequel. Agrees with notion of two separate games.
| Didn't want action-less story, maybe there are street fights. Also wants Mai to be alive for sequel. Agrees with notion of two separate games.
|-
|-
| 30
| 30
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=2#post_146 here]
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| TheTurnipKing
| TheTurnipKing
| Daodan
| Daodan
| Re what Chrysalis "wants", aren't the Chrysalises just hyper-evolved versions of the hosts? Wonders if more than two Chrysalises were made.
| As far as what Chrysalis "wants", aren't the Chrysalises just hyper-evolved versions of the hosts? Wonders if more than two Chrysalises were made.
|-
|-
| 31
| 31
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=3#post_148 here]
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| owldreamer
| owldreamer
| Story
| Mai, Hikari
| Doesn't plan for Mai to actually be dead, just to shock the player and then have Mai show up later. Hikari is same height as Mai, for story reasons and so that she can use Mai's animations.
| Doesn't plan for Mai to actually be dead, just to shock the player and then have Mai show up later. Hikari is same height as Mai, for story reasons and so that she can use Mai's animations.
|-
|-
| 32
| 32
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=3#post_153 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Daodan
| Daodan, OtherChar, Screaming Cells
| Reiterates that Daodan is a separate entity that replaces the host. Points to mention of its "unearthly" abilities. It could be a "sentient cancer from outer space". From "another dimension"... wherever Screaming Cells and Mukade's Devil Star are from. Chrysalis is what results when this alien lifeform comes into contact with one of us. Its cells are like stem cells that don't lose their totipotence and which split rapidly and want to replace other cells. Smarter than cancer because it doesn't kill its host. Perhaps Daodan comes from superior, immaterial beings who want to evolve material life to serve some purpose of their own... references Asimov [*consults mental record of his comprehensive library of Asimov stories* Perhaps he means "Does A Bee Care?", one of my favorites. Here's [[wikipedia:Does a Bee Care?|a crappy summary]] of that short story, but you're better off reading the real thing than spoiling it for yourself.] Muro's monstrous transformation was a result of being unstable (noting the talk of "stability" with regards to Mai in the story); he developed too fast. Daodan has to gather info about host by finishing an initial transformation before it can settle down and adapt at a "standby" rate. Aura in overpower mode is visible aspect of the original immaterial Daodan being, which continues to guide the process. Unlike host, it's immortal. Responding to TTK, says that there are three or four prime symbiotes (counts Barabas and Mukade). Asks why owldreamer why Hikari should simply re-use Mai's animations. Is his Syndicate leader a Daodan Imago? Asks for opinions on cel shading.
| Reiterates that Daodan is a separate entity that replaces the host. Points to mention of its "unearthly" abilities. It could be a "sentient cancer from outer space". From "another dimension"... wherever Screaming Cells and Mukade's Devil Star are from. Chrysalis is what results when this alien lifeform comes into contact with one of us. Its cells are like stem cells that don't lose their totipotence and which split rapidly and want to replace other cells. Smarter than cancer because it doesn't kill its host. Perhaps Daodan comes from superior, immaterial beings who want to evolve material life to serve some purpose of their own... references Asimov [is referring to "Does A Bee Care?", one of my favorite Asimov stories. Here's [[wikipedia:Does a Bee Care%3F|a shoddy summary]] of that short story, but you're better off reading the real thing than spoiling it for yourself.] Muro's monstrous transformation was a result of being unstable (noting the talk of "stability" with regards to Mai in the story); he developed too fast. Daodan has to gather info about host by finishing an initial transformation before it can settle down and adapt at a "standby" rate. Aura in overpower mode is visible aspect of the original immaterial Daodan being, which continues to guide the process. Unlike host, it's immortal. Responding to TTK, says that there are three or four prime symbiotes (counts Barabas and Mukade). Asks why owldreamer why Hikari should simply re-use Mai's animations. Is his Syndicate leader a Daodan Imago? Asks for opinions on cel shading.
|-
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=3#post_154 here]
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| TheTurnipKing
| TheTurnipKing
| Daodan
| Daodan, Mukade, Barabas, Mai
| Explains his point that if the Daodan has become Mai, then it still *is* Mai, mentally at least. Physically, food consumption should be less since the Daodan must be drawing energy from more than food anyway. Mai and Muro were the only prime symbiotes, based off Hasegawa Chrysalises. Mukade and Barabas are Muro's attempts at modified Daodans; Baba is just strong, whereas the ninja is a "much more complete package". Shouldn't be possible to communicate with Daodan as it is analogous to a disease, but perhaps one can still guide its development. Likes cel shading, but wants whatever style is best for the story.
| Explains his point that if the Daodan has become Mai, then it still *is* Mai, mentally at least. Physically, food consumption should be less since the Daodan must be drawing energy from more than food anyway. Mai and Muro were the only prime symbiotes, based off Hasegawa Chrysalises. Mukade and Barabas are Muro's attempts at modified Daodans; Baba is just strong, whereas the ninja is a "much more complete package". Shouldn't be possible to communicate with Daodan as it is analogous to a disease, but perhaps one can still guide its development. Likes cel shading, but wants whatever style is best for the story.
|-
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=3#post_158 here]
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| TNT
| TNT
| Daodan
| Daodan, Barabas
| Wants cel shading for Oni 2. Reminds geyser that he suggested once that Barabas' Chrysalis is a clone of Muro's, thus making him not a prime symbiote.
| Wants cel shading for Oni 2. Reminds geyser that he suggested once that Barabas' Chrysalis is a clone of Muro's, thus making him not a prime symbiote.
|-
|-
| 35
| 35
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=3#post_163 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Daodan
| Daodan, Kerr, Barabas, Mukade, Mai
| Doesn't agree that Daodan simply becomes a new Mai. Kerr's "expression of your true nature" speech was mostly a hopeful attempt at being reassuring. Points to her violent expression when in overpower mode as evidence of another "nature" than Mai's taking root. Agrees that Daodan has another source of energy besides food. Daodan should at least be "smart", if not "intelligent", seeing as it alters the insides of the host without changing the outside. Makes host hard to kill. Must have a purpose. If Screamers are sentient, this thing must be a genius. Thinks that some of Muro's biomass was grafted to Barabas to mutate him. That means Barabas is not prime, but Mukade must be, considering how "perfect" his abilities are, and his mental connection with Mai that she doesn't have with Shinnie or Muro.
| Doesn't agree that Daodan simply becomes a new Mai. Kerr's "expression of your true nature" speech was mostly a hopeful attempt at being reassuring. Points to her violent expression when in overpower mode as evidence of another "nature" than Mai's taking root. Agrees that Daodan has another source of energy besides food. Daodan should at least be "smart", if not "intelligent", seeing as it alters the insides of the host without changing the outside. Makes host hard to kill. Must have a purpose. If Screamers are sentient, this thing must be a genius. Thinks that some of Muro's biomass was grafted to Barabas to mutate him. That means Barabas is not prime, but Mukade must be, considering how "perfect" his abilities are, and his mental connection with Mai that she doesn't have with Shinnie or Muro.
|-
|-
| 36
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=3#post_171 here]
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| Gatkowski
| Gatkowski
| Story
| TCTF, Syndicate, Themes
| Has been writing fanfics that focus on the characters and their back story because they're underdeveloped. In his ideas for Oni 2, TCTF and Syndicate have to join forces to save humanity. Points out that a good storyline can also be based on characters and personalities [Yes, yes, a thousand times "yes" to this comment].
| Has been writing fanfics that focus on the characters and their back story because they're underdeveloped. In his ideas for Oni 2, TCTF and Syndicate have to join forces to save humanity. Points out that a good storyline can also be based on characters and personalities.
|-
|-
| 37
| 37
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=3#post_172 here]
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| TheTurnipKing
| TheTurnipKing
| Daodan
| Daodan, Themes, Mukade, Muro
| Not sure that Mukade is perfect (he could be a freak under the mask), or that his abilities all come from Daodan. He doesn't have Muro and Mai's aura. Reiterates that if a complete copy is being made, memories and all, then Imago host should still be themselves, unless they're "broken" in some way "like Muro". But perhaps another stage of evolution kicks in after the first one.... Doubts that Screamers or Daodan is all that intelligent based on their actions. Compares humans in storyline to cancer; both exploit their resources until the host (or planet) is dead. Perhaps Daodan represents a change in attitude to living in harmony with nature.  
| Not sure that Mukade is perfect (he could be a freak under the mask), or that his abilities all come from Daodan. He doesn't have Muro's and Mai's aura. Reiterates that if a complete copy is being made, memories and all, then Imago host should still be themselves, unless they're "broken" in some way "like Muro". But perhaps another stage of evolution kicks in after the first one.... Doubts that Screamers or Daodans are all that intelligent based on their actions. Compares humans in storyline to cancer; both exploit their resources until the host (or planet) is dead. Perhaps Daodan represents a change in attitude to living in harmony with nature.  
|-
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| 38
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=3#post_175 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story/Daodan
| Daodan, Mukade, Mai, Themes, Screaming Cells
| Points out that Mukade doesn't show his face because he's a ninja, not necessarily because he's a freak. Lack of aura is because he doesn't go into overpower mode like Mai and Muro. Points out that a copy is never an original, by definition. The Imago host is upgraded in all ways. If it doesn't have the same biological needs as a human, then why should Mai's motivations or way of thinking remain the same? Then again, the brain remains "whole" even as it is replaced by the Daodan, so there's a certain kind of common identity between host and Daodan. Explains that "sentient" in context of Screamers doesn't mean "human-like intellect", just feeling and responding to sensation. Thinks, however, that the aura is what separates the Daodan from the merely sentient Screamer, and represents a guiding entity. Story would be much less interesting without this kind of intelligent design. Agrees with idea of another stage of evolution after Imago. Responding to Gatkowski, feels that there is not enough room in an action game for a focus on personalities [...?!......?!?!]. Wants story to be light, with back story and scientific details hidden in optional places like consoles and diary. Should have some humor in there, too.
| Points out that Mukade doesn't show his face because he's a ninja, not necessarily because he's a freak. Lack of aura is because he doesn't go into overpower mode like Mai and Muro. Points out that a copy is never an original, by definition. The Imago host is upgraded in all ways. If it doesn't have the same biological needs as a human, then why should Mai's motivations or way of thinking remain the same? Then again, the brain remains "whole" even as it is replaced by the Daodan, so there's a certain kind of common identity between host and Daodan. Explains that "sentient" in context of Screamers doesn't mean "human-like intellect", just feeling and responding to sensation. Thinks, however, that the aura is what separates the Daodan from the merely sentient Screamer, and represents a guiding entity. Story would be much less interesting without this kind of intelligent design. Agrees with idea of another stage of evolution after Imago. Responding to Gatkowski, feels that there is not enough room in an action game for a focus on personalities [...?!......?!?!]. Wants story to be light, with back story and scientific details hidden in optional places like consoles and diary. Should have some humor in there, too.
|-
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=3#post_176 here]
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| Gatkowski
| Gatkowski
| --
| --
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| 40
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=3#post_179 here]
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| TheTurnipKing
| TheTurnipKing
| Daodan
| Daodan, Mukade
| Lack of overpower for Mukade proves his point about Mukade not being a prime symbiote. Agrees that an Imago symbiote would be different, but they would still remember being human. Where *does* Daodan gets its energy from? Still thinks Daodan is little smarter than cells. The aura could be the upgraded "ghost" of the host. As far as introducing an "ETs with a purpose" angle, prefers that Oni be left open to interpretation. Asks if anyone has read the Dark Horse comics, and if they explain any more of Oni's abbreviated story [HA!].
| Lack of overpower for Mukade proves his point about Mukade not being a prime symbiote. Agrees that an Imago symbiote would be different, but they would still remember being human. Where *does* Daodan gets its energy from? Still thinks Daodan is little smarter than cells. The aura could be the upgraded "ghost" of the host. As far as introducing an "ETs with a purpose" angle, prefers that Oni be left open to interpretation. Asks if anyone has read the Dark Horse comics, and if they explain any more of Oni's abbreviated story [HA!].
|-
|-
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=4#post_180 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Daodan
| Daodan, Themes
| Situation with Daodan replacing someone cell by cell is more complex than a clone killing his original; at what point does one individual cease to be when he is replaced gradually by another? Suggests that TTK's "ghost" aura is the actual "oni" that Brent had in mind. Agrees that some openness is good, and appreciates the room for interpretation that it allows in a sequel. No, comics don't really explain anything in the game's story.
| Situation with Daodan replacing someone cell by cell is more complex than a clone killing his original; at what point does one individual cease to be when he is replaced gradually by another? Suggests that TTK's "ghost" aura is the actual "oni" that Brent had in mind. Agrees that some openness is good, and appreciates the room for interpretation that it allows in a sequel. No, comics don't really explain anything in the game's story.
|-
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| 42
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=4#post_186 here]
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| TheTurnipKing
| TheTurnipKing
| Daodan
| Daodan
| Difference in geyser's clone example is that the clone has a different past; the question there is "if two fundamentally identical people live different lives, would they end up differently"? It goes back to "nature vs nurture" because their nature is the exact same but their "nurture" was different. Daodan situation is the reverse: the nurture is shared, but the nature is very different.
| Difference in geyser's clone example is that the clone has a different past; the question there is "if two fundamentally identical people live different lives, would they end up differently"? It goes back to "nature vs. nurture" because their nature is the exact same but their "nurture" was different. Daodan situation is the reverse: the nurture is shared, but the nature is very different.
|-
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=4#post_190 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Daodan
| Daodan
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| 44
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=4#post_199 here]
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| TheTurnipKing
| TheTurnipKing
| Story
| Mukade, Barabas, Shinatama, Themes
| We know nothing about Mukade, not even his (?) gender. Perhaps he's a Daodan host, perhaps he's a mutated clone of Konoko. Mukade and Barabas are probably both Chrysalis experiments, but Barabas less successful, and augmented by technology. Shinatama's death was symbolic because she had Konoko's brain engrams, and it marks the point at which Konoko goes rogue. And why does TCTF only then decide to kill Konoko, when she loses her SLD and engram-mate?
| We know nothing about Mukade, not even his (?) gender. Perhaps he's a Daodan host, perhaps he's a mutated clone of Konoko. Mukade and Barabas are probably both Chrysalis experiments, but Barabas less successful, and augmented by technology. Shinatama's death was symbolic because she had Konoko's brain engrams, and it marks the point at which Konoko goes rogue. And why does TCTF only then decide to kill Konoko, when she loses her SLD and engram-mate?
|-
|-
| 45
| 45
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=4#post_202 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Mukade
| Actually, Shinatama's death *was* TCTF's first attempt to kill Konoko, because she had that convenient Xiox device in her that they could use. Thinks there is enough info on Mukade to speculate with, esp. considering the case of the missing Hasegawa.
| Actually, Shinatama's death *was* TCTF's first attempt to kill Konoko, because she had that convenient Xiox device in her that they could use. Thinks there is enough info on Mukade to speculate with, esp. considering the case of the missing Hasegawa.
|-
|-
| 46
| 46
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=4#post_203 here]
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| guido
| guido
| Story
| Project
| Focusing on Oni's missing pieces is a lost cause. We should think up new scenarios, designs, and ideas that we want to see, and then work out how to make them happen as part of the story.
| Focusing on Oni's missing pieces is a lost cause. We should think up new scenarios, designs, and ideas that we want to see, and then work out how to make them happen as part of the story.
|-
|-
| 47
| 47
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=4#post_204 here]
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| guido
| guido
| --
| Art
| [Posts drawings to illustrate what he means, but images and links are gone. Probably posted some of [[:Category:Art_by_Guido|these]].]
| [Posts drawings to illustrate what he means, but images and links are gone. Probably posted some of [[:Category:Art_by_Guido|these]].]
|-
|-
| 48
| 48
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=4#post_205 here]
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| guido
| guido
| --
| Art
| [Ibid.]
| [Ibid.]
|-
|-
| 49
| 49
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=4#post_206 here]
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| Script10000
| Script10000
| --
| --
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| 50
| 50
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=4#post_211 here]
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| TheTurnipKing
| TheTurnipKing
| Story
| Daodan, Griffin
| What does "Daodan" mean, anyway? And why did Griffin try to kill Konoko at that point when she hadn't done much yet?
| What does "Daodan" mean, anyway? And why did Griffin try to kill Konoko at that point when she hadn't done much yet?
|-
|-
| 51
| 51
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=5#post_212 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Daodan, Settings, Griffin
| Griffin had seen enough to know that the Daodan host was unpredictable and dangerous. "I can't allow her transformation to continue uncontrolled." Look up Daodan as "dao-dan". Like's guido's sketches but they seem to take place in a post-apocalypse shortly after Oni, whereas he, owldreamer and Pierre want a sequel set about 20 years later in a more controlled environment that is better suited for a melee action game.
| Griffin had seen enough to know that the Daodan host was unpredictable and dangerous. "I can't allow her transformation to continue uncontrolled." Look up Daodan as "dao-dan". Like's guido's sketches but they seem to take place in a post-apocalypse shortly after Oni, whereas he, owldreamer and Pierre want a sequel set about 20 years later in a more controlled environment that is better suited for a melee action game.
|-
|-
| 52
| 52
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=5#post_213 here]
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| TheTurnipKing
| TheTurnipKing
| Story
| Daodan, Griffin, Iron Demon
| But how does Griffin expect to stop Muro if he kills Konoko? And Konoko is mostly safe by this point and can still be monitored. Maybe Iron Demon was his backup plan? "Daodan" means "missile" in Chinese?
| But how does Griffin expect to stop Muro if he kills Konoko? And Konoko is mostly safe by this point and can still be monitored. Maybe Iron Demon was his backup plan? "Daodan" means "missile" in Chinese?
|-
|-
| 53
| 53
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=5#post_220 here]
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| guido
| guido
| Story
| Pollution, Settings, Syndicate, Iron Demon, Society, Barabas, Themes, OtherChar
| Konoko makes it clear at the end of Oni that the atmospheric damage is not going to be reversed, so even 20 years, order is not a sure thing. Thinks that geyser et al. are brushing that major issue under the rug when they wish for a stable setting for their game. Also, the Syndicate draws its strength from the underprivileged masses living outside the cities, therefore after the fall of the cities the struggle between authorities and Syndicate will only grow and chaos will increase. Finally, 20 years passing will disconnect the story's atmosphere from Oni 1. Points to Bungie's trend with other sequels -- in Myth and Halo, a single charismatic individual survives destruction to bring about a new order. Also, game doesn't have to be set in a wasteland; half-ruined cities, secret installations, even offices in new cities can be settings. Simply doesn't see how post-apocalyptic setting limits potential of an action game. Describes scenes wherein Mai runs from TCTF recovery squads and the Iron Demon battles its way through a ruined building out into the street under a toxic rain. Questions for a sequel: (A) Might there have been other Daodan research teams, or someone who picked up where Kerr left off?; (B) Who financed Griffin and who investigated his supposed corruption [referring to [[Quotes/Consoles#Terrance_Griffin|this console]]]; (C) Might anyone at the TCTF who knew Konoko want to join her?; (D) Did Muro have any rivals who survived him at the Syndicate? Perhaps now they are seeking Konoko, as a threat or as a guide; (E) Did Hasegawa meet "other relevant persons" during his captivity in the Syndicate?; (F) Mukade could communicate with his Daodan and with Mai mentally [I'm pretty sure the game doesn't say this], so perhaps he was a more advanced prototype of Hasegawa's; was this an attempt to attain the equilibrium or control that [[Quotes/Consoles#Chrysalis_Removal|the TCTF wanted]]?; (G) Perhaps Barabas was only KOed by Konoko and is imprisoned in Oni 2, and sought out by Konoko for some answers.
| Konoko makes it clear at the end of Oni that the atmospheric damage is not going to be reversed, so even after 20 years, order is not a sure thing. Thinks that geyser et al. are brushing that major issue under the rug when they wish for a stable setting for their game. Also, the Syndicate draws its strength from the underprivileged masses living outside the cities, therefore after the fall of the cities the struggle between authorities and Syndicate will only grow and chaos will increase. Finally, 20 years passing will disconnect the story's atmosphere from Oni 1. Points to Bungie's trend with other sequels -- in Myth and Halo, a single charismatic individual survives destruction to bring about a new order. Also, game doesn't have to be set in a wasteland; half-ruined cities, secret installations, even offices in new cities can be settings. Simply doesn't see how post-apocalyptic setting limits potential of an action game. Describes scenes wherein Mai runs from TCTF recovery squads and the Iron Demon battles its way through a ruined building out into the street under a toxic rain. Questions for a sequel: (A) Might there have been other Daodan research teams, or someone who picked up where Kerr left off?; (B) Who financed Griffin and who investigated his supposed corruption [referring to [[Quotes/Consoles#Terrance_Griffin|this console]]]; (C) Might anyone at the TCTF who knew Konoko want to join her?; (D) Did Muro have any rivals who survived him at the Syndicate? Perhaps now they are seeking Konoko, as a threat or as a guide; (E) Did Hasegawa meet "other relevant persons" during his captivity in the Syndicate?; (F) Mukade could communicate with his Daodan and with Mai mentally [actually, the game only says that Konoko can "feel" Mukade and that Mukade can "feel" his Chrysalis taking him over; no actual language use is implied], so perhaps he was a more advanced prototype of Hasegawa's; was this an attempt to attain the equilibrium or control that [[Quotes/Consoles#Chrysalis_Removal|the TCTF wanted]]?; (G) Perhaps Barabas was only KOed by Konoko and is imprisoned in Oni 2, and sought out by Konoko for some answers.
|-
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| 54
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=5#post_221 here]
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| TheTurnipKing
| TheTurnipKing
| Story
| Daodan
| Perhaps Daodan experiments from Hasegawa's lab escaped, and entered the food chain, spreading Daodan DNA?
| Perhaps Daodan experiments from Hasegawa's lab escaped, and entered the food chain, spreading Daodan DNA?
|-
|-
| 55
| 55
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=5#post_226 here]
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| TNT
| TNT
| Story
| Daodan, Barabas, Mukade
| Konoko, Muro, Mukade and Barabas all have red shields that protect them, so perhaps this comes from the Daodan. Barabas' appears after his first defeat, so perhaps he's still evolving.
| Konoko, Muro, Mukade and Barabas all have red shields that protect them, so perhaps this comes from the Daodan. Barabas' appears after his first defeat, so perhaps he's still evolving.
|-
|-
| 56
| 56
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=5#post_228 here]
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| owldreamer
| owldreamer
| --
| --
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| 57
| 57
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=5#post_230 here]
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| TheTurnipKing
| TheTurnipKing
| Story
| Daodan, Barabas, Mukade
| Suggests that Hasegawa experimented on animals, which was the earliest source of Daodan DNA. There's also the "original" Daodan, not primed with DNA like the Chrysalises in Mai and Muro. "Barabas and Mukade were most likely based on Muro's Daodan data, though with further refinements" by Hasegawa or the Syndicate. "It seems likely that all of the Daodans 'in play' are based on Hasegawa's Chrysalises."
| Suggests that Hasegawa experimented on animals, which was the earliest source of Daodan DNA. There's also the "original" Daodan, not primed with DNA like the Chrysalises in Mai and Muro. "Barabas and Mukade were most likely based on Muro's Daodan data, though with further refinements" by Hasegawa or the Syndicate. "It seems likely that all of the Daodans 'in play' are based on Hasegawa's Chrysalises."
|-
|-
| 58
| 58
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=5#post_248 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Pollution, Settings, Syndicate, TCTF, WCG, Mai
| Contrary to guido's suggestion, it could be a fast process to establish a new order under martial law, especially when the people are burying their dead. Wonders about "clean air" posters in airport when air seems to be fine. WCG must have begun a PR campaign to convince people that they cared about environment, and strengthened the ACCs, after Jamie died. Hasegawa anticipated a cataclysm that never came until Konoko blew up the ACCs. Perhaps she missed a few. Anyway, mankind is resilient and inventive; we would find ways to make the air decent in at least confined areas, and in 20 years the city streets should be clean enough that only a mask is needed. Post-apocalypses are dull and difficult for gameplay. Also, let's not focus on just TCTF vs. Syndicate. What about the rest of the WCG's forces? Questions guido's "fact" about the Syndicate drawing strength from the people outside the cities. Can people even live outside the cities? Syndicate won't mess around with old-fashioned crime after Cataclysm; they'll make a grab for true power, having been prepared for the poison air scenario. They just need a charismatic and intelligent leader, more like Mukade than Muro. TCTF was never a match for Syndicate to begin with. How is WCG governed; dictatorship, council, democracy? There is a Directorate above Griffin. WCG allows free speech and protests and works to improve air, so they don't seem too bad. But they're wusses (demilitarized?). They have no ability to match the Syndicate, as far as we can see. TCTF just does enough on a low level to make the public think things are under control. Therefore, being prepared and well-armed, the Syndicate will steamroll the WCG after the Cataclysm. WCG will probably blame Mai for Cataclysm and she will become World Enemy #1. So Mai will have to run away. Also, her conscience will plague her for what she did and she may just have to "sleep it off" for 20 years.
| Contrary to guido's suggestion, it could be a fast process to establish a new order under martial law, especially when the people are busy burying their dead. Wonders about "clean air" posters in airport when air seems to be fine. WCG must have begun a PR campaign to convince people that they cared about environment, and strengthened the ACCs, after Jamie died. Hasegawa anticipated a cataclysm that never came until Konoko blew up the ACCs. Perhaps she missed a few. Anyway, mankind is resilient and inventive; we would find ways to make the air decent in at least confined areas, and in 20 years the city streets should be clean enough that only a mask is needed. Post-apocalypses are dull and difficult for gameplay. Also, let's not focus on just TCTF vs. Syndicate. What about the rest of the WCG's forces? Questions guido's "fact" about the Syndicate drawing strength from the people outside the cities. Can people even live outside the cities? Syndicate won't mess around with old-fashioned crime after Cataclysm; they'll make a grab for true power, having been prepared for the poison air scenario. They just need a charismatic and intelligent leader, more like Mukade than Muro. TCTF was never a match for Syndicate to begin with. How is WCG governed; dictatorship, council, democracy? There is a Directorate above Griffin. WCG allows free speech and protests and works to improve air, so they don't seem too bad. But they're wusses (demilitarized?). They have no ability to match the Syndicate, as far as we can see. TCTF just does enough on a low level to make the public think things are under control. Therefore, being prepared and well-armed, the Syndicate will steamroll the WCG after the Cataclysm. WCG will probably blame Mai for Cataclysm and she will become World Enemy #1. So Mai will have to run away. Also, her conscience will plague her for what she did and she may just have to "sleep it off" for 20 years.
|-
|-
| 59
| 59
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=5#post_249 here]
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| Alloc
| Alloc
| Story
| Mai
| Why say that the Cataclysm is Mai's fault? She just read a console and then fought Muro.
| Why say that the Cataclysm is Mai's fault? She just read a console and then fought Muro.
|-
|-
| 60
| 60
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=5#post_250 here]
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| guido
| guido
| Story
| Art
| [Another broken art link.]
| [Another broken art link.]
|-
|-
| 61
| 61
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=6#post_252 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Mai, Settings, Hikari, Pollution, Project, Vehicles, Muro, Barabas, Mukade, Daodan
| Tells Alloc to play the end of Oni again. Asks Guido why Hikari would fight Mai. Doesn't want to set story in post-apocalypse. It will simply be mission after mission of bunkers and dead people and ruined city streets. Doesn't think that the TCTF chasing Mai through a city is compelling because she can out-run everyone, especially if they have to wear protective gear. The Iron Demon wouldn't do too well under acid rain, either. Does not see much potential for action when Mai can hide anywhere and outpace everybody, plus why would she be running around ruined cities, anyway? And who says cities have to be in ruins, for that matter? All that happened is that the ACCs outside the cities [are they really?] blew up and then the air went bad. Ghost cities, yes; ruins, no. Suggests that Oni 2 have 30 missions and 100+ hours of gameplay. Doesn't think that 20 years would be too distant from Oni 1; we can revisit old settings. Maybe the only green areas are under domes now. And that 20 years of technological advancement cuts both ways: how can we introduce new weapons and Mai's fancy new bike if Oni 2 takes place right after Oni? But perhaps a couple opening levels could resume right after Oni 1, as Mai realizes what she's done, wandering around the cities. Then she falls into a "kind of painful trance/hibernation" for 20 years, and wakes up in a cave inside the Wilderness, unsure of who or what she is. She gradually notices that she's "different" and has to learn about the Daodan and her abilities again. In contrast to this player-friendly approach, picking up with after Cataclysm means that she is getting hunted by mobs of enemies and shot at, and the player might not know Oni's story and be totally overwhelmed. If anything, that scenario might make a good unlockable "prologue" after beating the game. Doubts that Muro or Barabas survived Oni. They may not have been killed by Mai, but the TCTF would have taken their bodies and finished them off, maybe autopsied them. Mukade, however, was KOed away from the reaches of the TCTF. Shoots down Guido's ideas of Mukade having "equilibrium" (the Daodan replaces you) and "telepathy" (they can sense each other, it's mutual between Daodan hosts). However, Mukade is probably a very advanced symbiote, maybe more so than Mai and Muro. Also negates Guido's suggestion of Griffin being "financed" or "corrupt"; the console says no such thing.
| Tells Alloc to play the end of Oni again. Asks Guido why Hikari would fight Mai. Doesn't want to set story in post-apocalypse. It will simply be mission after mission of bunkers and dead people and ruined city streets. Doesn't think that the TCTF chasing Mai through a city is compelling because she can out-run everyone, especially if they have to wear protective gear. The Iron Demon wouldn't do too well under acid rain, either. Does not see much potential for action when Mai can hide anywhere and outpace everybody, plus why would she be running around ruined cities, anyway? And who says cities have to be in ruins, for that matter? All that happened is that the ACCs, which are outside the cities [actually, the manual states that the ACCs are <u>in</u> the cities], blew up and then the air went bad. Ghost cities, yes; ruins, no. Suggests that Oni 2 have 30 missions and 100+ hours of gameplay. Doesn't think that 20 years would be too distant from Oni 1; we can revisit old settings. Maybe the only green areas are under domes now. And that 20 years of technological advancement cuts both ways: how can we introduce new weapons and Mai's fancy new bike if Oni 2 takes place right after Oni? But perhaps a couple opening levels could resume right after Oni 1, as Mai realizes what she's done, wandering around the cities. Then she falls into a "kind of painful trance/hibernation" for 20 years, and wakes up in a cave inside the Wilderness, unsure of who or what she is. She gradually notices that she's "different" and has to learn about the Daodan and her abilities again. In contrast to this player-friendly approach, picking up with after Cataclysm means that she is getting hunted by mobs of enemies and shot at, and the player might not know Oni's story and be totally overwhelmed. If anything, that scenario might make a good unlockable "prologue" after beating the game. Doubts that Muro or Barabas survived Oni. They may not have been killed by Mai, but the TCTF would have taken their bodies and finished them off, maybe autopsied them. Mukade, however, was KOed away from the reaches of the TCTF. Shoots down Guido's ideas of Mukade having "equilibrium" (the Daodan replaces you) and "telepathy" (they can sense each other, it's mutual between Daodan hosts). However, Mukade is probably a very advanced symbiote, maybe more so than Mai and Muro. Also negates Guido's suggestion of Griffin being "financed" or "corrupt"; the console says no such thing.
|-
|-
| 62
| 62
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=6#post_253 here]
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| Alloc
| Alloc
| --
| --
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|-
| 63
| 63
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=6#post_254 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Mai, Daodan, Mukade, Pollution
| Points out strange behaviors on Mai's part: (1) "Killing" Mukade instead of asking him questions (and who's to say that the disc he drops is the data she wanted? Maybe it's planted by Muro/Mukade), and (2) blowing up the ACCs instead of finding another way, like "re-re-purposing" them. Wasn't the situation under control, since no Cataclysm happened since Jamie's death? Muro only planned to ''gradually'' make the atmosphere more toxic to blackmail the world, and Mai made things way worse. Questions why there are "too many stations [to disarm] before Muro activates them" unless there are more we didn't see or they keep re-activating after she leaves. Mai also seems to think the ends justify the means in getting WCG to acknowledge the situation (which she just made 100x worse!), and is naive for thinking that everyone can simply be implanted with Chrysalises. Plans to further explain Mukade's link to Mai since no one is getting it.
| Points out strange behaviors on Mai's part: (1) "Killing" Mukade instead of asking him questions (and who's to say that the disc he drops is the data she wanted? Maybe it's planted by Muro/Mukade), and (2) blowing up the ACCs instead of finding another way, like "re-re-purposing" them. Wasn't the situation under control, since no Cataclysm happened since Jamie's death? Muro only planned to ''gradually'' make the atmosphere more toxic to blackmail the world, and Mai made things way worse. Questions why there are "too many stations [to disarm] before Muro activates them" unless there are more we didn't see or they keep re-activating after she leaves. Mai also seems to think the ends justify the means in getting WCG to acknowledge the situation (which she just made 100x worse!), and is naive for thinking that everyone can simply be implanted with Chrysalises. Plans to further explain Mukade's link to Mai since no one is getting it.
|-
|-
| 64
| 64
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=6#post_255 here]
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| TNT
| TNT
| Story
| TCTF, Syndicate, Pollution
| Isn't sure that TCTF actually knew how strong Syndicate was; they didn't believe in Barabas' strength [per [[Quotes/Consoles#Barabas|this console]]]. Manual remarks that the elite Red Strikers are 'only a rumor'. TCTF may still have known they were out-matched (perhaps that's what Iron Demon was for). Additionally, the Syndicate was able to create adult SLDs; they had the advantage of none of the legal restrictions that the police had. Also, who says they only had to fight the Syndicate? Reminds geyser that Hasegawa had seen that the pollution was indeed going to overwhelm the ACCs. Not sure that all ACCs were destroyed.
| Isn't sure that TCTF actually knew how strong Syndicate was; they didn't believe in Barabas' strength [per [[Quotes/Consoles#Barabas|this console]]]. Manual remarks that the elite Red Strikers are 'only a rumor'. TCTF may still have known they were out-matched (perhaps that's what Iron Demon was for). Additionally, the Syndicate was able to create adult SLDs; they had the advantage of none of the legal restrictions that the police had. Also, who says they only had to fight the Syndicate? Reminds geyser that Hasegawa had seen that the pollution was indeed going to overwhelm the ACCs. Not sure that all ACCs were destroyed.
|-
|-
| 65
| 65
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=6#post_256 here]
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| Gatkowski
| Gatkowski
| Story
| Mukade, Daodan, Mai, Pollution
| Mukade and Mai only sense one another because they're Daodan hosts, no further connection is needed to explain that. The reason why Mukade "fails" to get away from Mai is not conspiratorial in nature; his mission is to get away, but his "blood burns" at the thought of fighting Konoko, like a martial artist responding to another's strength with a desire to conquer that strength. Isn't sure that Syndicate knew as much about Konoko as geyser assumes. Who says Mukade would or could have told Konoko anything? Her fear probably got the better of her, as well. Doubts that ACC's reversal was reversible, Muro had no need to be able to reverse things. Thinks that Konoko is strong enough to take the hatred of society because she knows that her choice was necessary in order to save the majority of humanity.
| Mukade and Mai only sense one another because they're Daodan hosts, no further connection is needed to explain that. The reason why Mukade "fails" to get away from Mai is not conspiratorial in nature; his mission is to get away, but his "blood burns" at the thought of fighting Konoko, like a martial artist responding to another's strength with a desire to conquer that strength. Isn't sure that Syndicate knew as much about Konoko as geyser assumes. Who says Mukade would or could have told Konoko anything? Her fear probably got the better of her, as well. Doubts that ACC's reversal was reversible, Muro had no need to be able to reverse things. Thinks that Konoko is strong enough to take the hatred of society because she knows that her choice was necessary in order to save the majority of humanity.
|-
|-
| 66
| 66
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=6#post_258 here]
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| Seventeen Seconds
| Seventeen Seconds
| Story
| Themes
| Believes that story-writing process should focus less on details, and secondary characters like Mukade, and more on "archetypes and motivations and how characters fit together". Bend the continuity to make a more compelling story and you'll get more suspension of disbelief and emotional involvement from the player. Save the heavy details for the console text.
| Believes that story-writing process should focus less on details, and secondary characters like Mukade, and more on "archetypes and motivations and how characters fit together". Bend the continuity to make a more compelling story and you'll get more suspension of disbelief and emotional involvement from the player. Save the heavy details for the console text.
|-
|-
| 67
| 67
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=6#post_259 here]
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| owldreamer
| owldreamer
| Story
| Themes
| Agrees with 17sec.
| Agrees with 17sec.
|-
|-
| 68
| 68
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=6#post_261 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Mukade
| Doesn't consider Mukade to be secondary. Plans him to be main character besides Mai that carries over from Oni 1. Doesn't want people to have to suspend their belief because of a sloppy story, wants to build a careful, consistent world. So we need to work out all these details now, not later. At the same time, agrees that we should keep the opening of Oni 2 simple and only later fill in details. Does care about characters; has idea for Mai's best "friend" [referencing [[Oni2:Characters/Big|Mr. Big]]].
| Doesn't consider Mukade to be secondary. Plans him to be main character besides Mai that carries over from Oni 1. Doesn't want people to have to suspend their belief because of a sloppy story, wants to build a careful, consistent world. So we need to work out all these details now, not later. At the same time, agrees that we should keep the opening of Oni 2 simple and only later fill in details. Does care about characters; has idea for Mai's best "friend" [referencing [[Oni2:Big|Mr. Big]]].
|-
|-
| 69
| 69
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=6#post_267 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| TCTF, Syndicate, Mukade, Hasegawa, Griffin
| TCTF didn't believe in Barabas' abilities but they knew he was an "exceptional" Enforcer. The Syndicate *is* the only enemy of the TCTF's, they're the whole worldwide Network of criminals. Mai could feel Mukade not just because they are Daodan hosts, but because they share genetic material in common, even more than with her sibling, Muro [he's hinting that Mukade is Daddy]. TCTF is cowardly because they only fight Syndicate on small scale and "quit the game when it gets rough". Konoko was not a weapon to bring down the Syndicate, she was just a "toy" for Griffin.
| TCTF didn't believe in Barabas' abilities but they knew he was an "exceptional" Enforcer. The Syndicate *is* the only enemy of the TCTF's, they're the whole worldwide Network of criminals. Mai could feel Mukade not just because they are Daodan hosts, but because they share genetic material in common, even more than with her sibling, Muro [he's hinting that Mukade is Daddy]. TCTF is cowardly because they only fight Syndicate on small scale and "quit the game when it gets rough". Konoko was not a weapon to bring down the Syndicate, she was just a "toy" for Griffin.
|-
|-
| 70
| 70
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=6#post_268 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Mr. Big, Vehicles
| [Posts links to pages about the Serious Engine II.] Mr. Big is agile as well as strong and has lots of personality, as evidenced by his T-shirts. His weapons fire all kinds of different shots depending on ammo type picked up, and he drives a levitating high-speed Humvee.
| [Posts links to pages about the Serious Engine II.] Mr. Big is agile as well as strong and has lots of personality, as evidenced by his T-shirts. His weapons fire all kinds of different shots depending on ammo type picked up, and he drives a levitating high-speed Humvee.
|-
|-
| 71
| 71
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=7#post_281 here]
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| TNT
| TNT
| Story
| TCTF, Griffin
| TCTF wasn't cowardly, they just didn't want to face the Syndicate head-on if it was stronger. Griffin hadn't "given up", he'd sent strike team to get Shinatama; they arrive at the end of the level. Shouldn't make Griffin sound so evil.
| TCTF wasn't cowardly, they just didn't want to face the Syndicate head-on if it was stronger. Griffin hadn't "given up", he'd sent strike team to get Shinatama; they arrive at the end of the level. Shouldn't make Griffin sound so evil.
|-
|-
| 72
| 72
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=7#post_282 here]
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| guido
| guido
| Story
| Iron Demon, Society, Mai, WCG, Pollution
| Perhaps if the Iron Demon cannot withstand acid rain, that gives us an idea for level design with the ID. They seem to disagree on when Oni should take place; perhaps they should write two separate stories for Oni 2 in separate threads and then compare and merge the interesting points together. Backs up statement about "underprivileged masses" with quote from manual, translated from Italian. Asserts that another console about Griffin talked about him receiving money from an unknown source. "Confirms" that maybe one-third of ACCs still stand after Cataclysm, hence why he pictures some cities as untouched. Likes ideas of Mai's internal struggle and the WCG's "changing role".
| Perhaps if the Iron Demon cannot withstand acid rain, that gives us an idea for level design with the ID. They seem to disagree on when Oni should take place; perhaps they should write two separate stories for Oni 2 in separate threads and then compare and merge the interesting points together. Backs up statement about "underprivileged masses" with quote from manual, translated from Italian. Asserts that another console about Griffin talked about him receiving money from an unknown source. "Confirms" that maybe one-third of ACCs still stand after Cataclysm, hence why he pictures some cities as untouched. Likes ideas of Mai's internal struggle and the WCG's "changing role".
|-
|-
| 73
| 73
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=7#post_283 here]
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| guido
| guido
| --
| --
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|-
|-
| 74
| 74
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=7#post_286 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Griffin, Settings, Vehicles, Pollution, Mai
| Reiterates that TCTF is no match for Syndicate, therefore team sent after Shinatama was meant to be wiped out and fail their mission. Then refers to this same team [?] as a death squad sent after Konoko. Griffin may not be evil, but he's a clichéd "just doing his job" kind of character. And English console doesn't say anything about Griffin receiving money, so maybe the Italian has a bad translation. Downplays canonicity of manual. Reason for wanting to make Mai amnesiac at start of Oni 2 was precisely this -- so that the player doesn't have to be intimately familiar with Oni's story; we can then introduce the facts to Mai and the player at will. Reason for time skip is to allow technological development and add spice to the action. Not sure that setting the game right after Cataclysm is going to be compatible with fast-paced action. Doesn't want a depressing and desolate setting to fight in. And maybe the Humvee doesn't levitate. Questions assertion that not all ACCs blew up.
| Reiterates that TCTF is no match for Syndicate, therefore team sent after Shinatama was meant to be wiped out and fail their mission. Then refers to a second team as a death squad sent after Konoko. Griffin may not be evil, but he's a clichéd "just doing his job" kind of character. And English console doesn't say anything about Griffin receiving money, so maybe the Italian has a bad translation. Downplays canonicity of manual. Reason for wanting to make Mai amnesiac at start of Oni 2 was precisely this -- so that the player doesn't have to be intimately familiar with Oni's story; we can then introduce the facts to Mai and the player at will. Reason for time skip is to allow technological development and add spice to the action. Not sure that setting the game right after Cataclysm is going to be compatible with fast-paced action. Doesn't want a depressing and desolate setting to fight in. And maybe the Humvee doesn't levitate. Questions assertion that not all ACCs blew up.
|-
|-
| 75
| 75
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=7#post_298 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Society, Pollution, WCG
| Asks about "air dispensers" in [[:Image:GuidoArt-Gimme.jpg|Guido's art]]; would WCG even bother trying to help the "underprivileged masses"? Separate threads may not be needed.  
| Asks about "air dispensers" in [[:Image:Guido - Gimme.jpg|Guido's art]]; would WCG even bother trying to help the "underprivileged masses"? Separate threads may not be needed.  
|-
|-
| 76
| 76
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=7#post_306 here]
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| TheTurnipKing
| TheTurnipKing
| Story/Gameplay
| Pollution, Daodan, Gameplay
| Responding to geyser's deconstruction of Konoko's ending monologue (post #63); wasn't the problem that we were dependent on the ACCs? We were slowly killing ourselves as a race, and the Chrysalis was forcing us to make a change that we weren't making on our own. Questions geyser saying that action was taken by WCG after Jamie's death. Are you suggesting Mukade is Hasegawa? Wants Oni 2 to basically be more Oni 1, but with better physics and more stylized graphics. Also, melee weapons and interactive environments. Save points before dangerous areas a must.
| Responding to geyser's deconstruction of Konoko's ending monologue (post #63); wasn't the problem that we were dependent on the ACCs? We were slowly killing ourselves as a race, and the Chrysalis was forcing us to make a change that we weren't making on our own. Questions geyser saying that action was taken by WCG after Jamie's death. Are you suggesting Mukade is Hasegawa? Wants Oni 2 to basically be more Oni 1, but with better physics and more stylized graphics. Also, melee weapons and interactive environments. Save points before dangerous areas a must.
|-
|-
| 77
| 77
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=7#post_307 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Mai, WCG, Project
| It was very naive of Konoko to think that Chrysalises could save everyone, as mentioned before. Confirms his hints about Mukade. Something being done after Jamie's death is logical since it wasn't covered up Big Brother-style. Completely dismisses usefulness of manual except for line about WCG permitting Syndicate to exist. What sort of stylized graphics? Is working to put Oni's world into Serious Engine.
| It was very naive of Konoko to think that Chrysalises could save everyone, as mentioned before. Confirms his hints about Mukade. Something being done after Jamie's death is logical since it wasn't covered up Big Brother-style. Completely dismisses usefulness of manual except for line about WCG permitting Syndicate to exist. What sort of stylized graphics? Is working to put Oni's world into Serious Engine.
|-
|-
| 78
| 78
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=7#post_308 here]
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| TheTurnipKing
| TheTurnipKing
| Graphics/Story
| Project, WCG
| Points to Beyond Good & Evil and Killer 7 for stylized graphics. Just because Jamie's death was reported on doesn't mean anything was done about it. Story focuses more on their trespassing [and Jamie's murder!] than on what is going on in the Wilderness. Could be more subtle form of Big Brother control. Isn't a Serious Engine mod going to require everyone to own the game, or for geyser to license the engine?
| Points to Beyond Good & Evil and Killer 7 for stylized graphics. Just because Jamie's death was reported on doesn't mean anything was done about it. Story focuses more on their trespassing [and Jamie's murder!] than on what is going on in the Wilderness. Could be more subtle form of Big Brother control. Isn't a Serious Engine mod going to require everyone to own the game, or for geyser to license the engine?
|-
|-
| 79
| 79
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=7#post_310 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=7#post_310 here]-->
| geyser
| geyser
| Graphics/Story
| Project, WCG
| Main wish for graphics is just to give characters higher-res textures. Licensing Serious Engine is only needed if selling the game or needing advanced support. Links to larger "Murder or Mercy?" newspaper picture.
| Main wish for graphics is just to give characters higher-res textures. Licensing Serious Engine is only needed if selling the game or needing advanced support. Links to larger "Murder or Mercy?" newspaper picture.
|-
|-
| 80
| 80
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=7#post_313 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=7#post_313 here]-->
| TheTurnipKing
| TheTurnipKing
| Story
| WCG
| Is familiar with picture. Doesn't think it proves/disproves anything. Focus is placed on Hasegawa, and authorities will investigate virus, which means little because they are overlooking the root cause of the problem.
| Is familiar with picture. Doesn't think it proves/disproves anything. Focus is placed on Hasegawa, and authorities will investigate virus, which means little because they are overlooking the root cause of the problem.
|-
|-
| 81
| 81
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=8#post_317 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| --
| --
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|-
|-
| 82
| 82
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=8#post_318 here]
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| TheTurnipKing
| TheTurnipKing
| --
| --
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|-
|-
| 83
| 83
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=8#post_319 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| WCG, Hasegawa
| Points out that the story gives gruesome details on what happened to Jamie [as evidence against a cover-up]. It does make things more interesting for Hasegawa's motivation if he was branded a criminal; his research might have had a mix of "altruism and resentment". What about doodles on whiteboard in his Lab?
| Points out that the story gives gruesome details on what happened to Jamie [as evidence against a state cover-up]. It does make things more interesting for Hasegawa's motivation if he was branded a criminal; his research might have had a mix of "altruism and resentment". What about doodles on whiteboard in his Lab?
|-
|-
| 84
| 84
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=8#post_320 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=8#post_320 here]-->
| Snake007x
| Snake007x
| Story
| WCG, Pollution, OtherChar, Mai
| Has own idea for Oni 2: takes place 20 years after Oni 1. TCTF [he means WCG] has diminished power, but still controls some regions. World is stylized but polluted. Man starting to use mainly solar and wind energy. "Humans in the future generally don't have increased strength because of the Chrysalis at this point because they've spent most of their lives adapting to the pollution, but there are a few exceptions to the rule." Story is set in nation called United Federation (UF). Not a wealthy or well-organized nation. Former police take hostages in bank to force government to merge with "TCTF". Konoko sent in to take them out, but she saves them instead. New government that is established gives most of the control to a leftist named Bismarck. He puts Konoko in charge of the Federal Security Force, but it soon becomes clear that he has been conspiring to become a dictator. He arms rebels so that they can be used as a premise for increasing his own power. Konoko tries to take him down and loses the fight against his guards, retreating. She needs to decide if she should team up with the "TCTF" or find another way.
| Has own idea for Oni 2: takes place 20 years after Oni 1. "TCTF" [he means WCG] has diminished power, but still controls some regions. World is stylized but polluted. Man starting to use mainly solar and wind energy. "Humans in the future generally don't have increased strength because of the Chrysalis at this point because they've spent most of their lives adapting to the pollution, but there are a few exceptions to the rule." Story is set in nation called United Federation. Not a wealthy or well-organized nation. Former police take hostages in bank to force government to merge with "TCTF". Konoko sent in to take them out, but she saves them instead. New government that is established gives most of the control to a leftist named Bismarck. He puts Konoko in charge of the Federal Security Force, but it soon becomes clear that he has been conspiring to become a dictator. He arms rebels so that they can be used as a premise for increasing his own power. Konoko tries to take him down and loses the fight against his guards, retreating. She needs to decide if she should team up with the "TCTF" or find another way.
|-
|-
| 85
| 85
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=8#post_323 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=8#post_323 here]-->
| Nyctasia
| Nyctasia
| Story
| OtherChar
| Points out that TCTF is just the police force. Why "Bismarck"? [I'm guessing he is feeling defensive of the famous Prussian ruler.] Can't understand remarks about Marxist dictatorships. And what happened to the Syndicate?
| Points out that TCTF is just the police force. Why "Bismarck"? [I'm guessing he is feeling defensive of the famous Prussian ruler.] Can't understand remarks about Marxist dictatorships. And what happened to the Syndicate?
|-
|-
| 86
| 86
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=8#post_324 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=8#post_324 here]-->
| Snake007x
| Snake007x
| Story
| WCG
| Meant WCG, not TCTF. "Marxist dictator" would be someone like Castro. Did intentionally use Bismarck's name because he was the father of [[wikipedia:Realpolitik|Realpolitik]]. Didn't use Syndicate because he wanted to think up new enemy for Konoko, but maybe they are assisting the rebels. But Konoko did kill most of them.
| Meant WCG, not TCTF. "Marxist dictator" would be someone like Castro. Did intentionally use Bismarck's name because he was the father of [[wikipedia:Realpolitik|Realpolitik]]. Didn't use Syndicate because he wanted to think up new enemy for Konoko, but maybe they are assisting the rebels. But Konoko did kill most of them.
|-
|-
| 87
| 87
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=8#post_325 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=8#post_325 here]-->
| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Syndicate, OtherChar
| Isn't sure that we should use "patented" [well-known] names for characters. Isn't fond of some of the political message. Syndicate won't just go away, they're a major military force that was prepared for the poisoning of the air.
| Isn't sure that we should use "patented" [famous historical] names for characters. Isn't fond of some of the political message. Syndicate won't just go away, they're a major military force that was prepared for the poisoning of the air.
|-
|-
| 88
| 88
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=8#post_330 here]
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| Snake007x
| Snake007x
| --
| --
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|-
|-
| 89
| 89
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=8#post_335 here]
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| Nyctasia
| Nyctasia
| Story
| Mai, WCG, Syndicate, Griffin
| Thinks that gov't would have to find a scapegoat for the pollution and would pick Konoko. Not sure that future situation will be about forceful oppression, maybe more propaganda. Only part of Syndicate was destroyed by Konoko, plus they must have had ties to world powers. Also suggests that Griffin shows up to help Konoko partly for his own reasons, or perhaps to finish off Muro if Konoko fails.
| Thinks that gov't would have to find a scapegoat for the pollution and would pick Konoko. Not sure that future situation will be about forceful oppression, maybe more propaganda. Only part of Syndicate was destroyed by Konoko, plus they must have had ties to world powers. Also suggests that Griffin shows up to help Konoko partly for his own reasons, or perhaps to finish off Muro if Konoko fails.
|-
|-
| 90
| 90
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=8#post_336 here]
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| Nyctasia
| Nyctasia
| Story
| OtherChar
| Otto von Bismarck ruled by 'brute wits, not brute strength', so Bismarck is not really a fitting name for Snake's character.
| Otto von Bismarck ruled by 'brute wits, not brute strength', so Bismarck is not really a fitting name for Snake's character.
|-
|-
| 91
| 91
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=9#post_341 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=9#post_341 here]-->
| Snake007x
| Snake007x
| Story
| OtherChar
| Acknowledges that Bismarck used brains, but that was only part of his inspiration; was also thinking of Castro. We need some physical conflict, or story would be pretty boring.
| Acknowledges that Bismarck used brains, but that was only part of his inspiration; was also thinking of Castro. We need some physical conflict, or story would be pretty boring.
|-
|-
| 92
| 92
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=9#post_343 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=9#post_343 here]-->
| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Hasegawa
| Yes, too much politics is boring, so why emphasize it so much in the story? And what about Hasegawa's whiteboard?
| Yes, too much politics is boring, so why emphasize it so much in the story? And what about Hasegawa's whiteboard?
|-
|-
| 93
| 93
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=9#post_345 here]
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| TNT
| TNT
| Story
| Syndicate, TCTF
| Can't recall whiteboard clearly. Disagrees that Syndicate troops are clearly superior to TCTF, manual says they have some advantages. Agrees that SLD recovery team was probably meant to fail. geyser shouldn't ignore manual, it's a part of the game.
| Can't recall whiteboard clearly. Disagrees that Syndicate troops are clearly superior to TCTF, manual says they have some advantages. Agrees that SLD recovery team was probably meant to fail. Geyser shouldn't ignore manual, it's a part of the game.
|-
|-
| 94
| 94
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=9#post_373 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Project
| The most important part of the game is the game itself.
| The most important part of the game is the game itself.
|-
|-
| 95
| 95
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=9#post_376 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=9#post_376 here]-->
| TNT
| TNT
| Story
| Project
| Manual is still part of the complete picture.
| Manual is still part of the complete picture.
|-
|-
| 96
| 96
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=9#post_380 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=9#post_380 here]-->
| ZDLO
| ZDLO
| Story
| Project
| "Many fans want to see real Oni 2". [I guess he means from T2 et al.?]
| "Many fans want to see real Oni 2" [I guess he means an Oni 2 from T2].
|-
|-
| 97
| 97
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=9#post_384 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=9#post_384 here]-->
| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Project, Mai
| Oni 2 is only going to come from the fans in this thread. Disagrees with Gatkowski (post #65) that Konoko could take the world's hatred. She was thrown into the situation and the public eye too quickly.
| Oni 2 is only going to come from the fans in this thread. Disagrees with Gatkowski (post #65) that Konoko could take the world's hatred. She was thrown into the situation and the public eye too quickly.
|-
|-
| 98
| 98
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=9#post_385 here]
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| ZDLO
| ZDLO
| --
| --
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|-
|-
| 99
| 99
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=9#post_388 here]
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| Nyctasia
| Nyctasia
| Story
| Project
| geyser is focused too much on eyecandy [he is referring to geyser's signature, which was "Life is a game. The plot is lousy, the gameplay sucks, but the *graphics* are just *awesome*!!!"]. Everyone is talking about plot [yes, he just contradicted himself...], but not about fixing what was wrong with Oni 1. Would rather read a story about Oni 2 than play it, if it's going to play just like Oni 1.
| geyser is focused too much on eyecandy [he is referring to geyser's signature, which was "Life is a game. The plot is lousy, the gameplay sucks, but the *graphics* are just *awesome*!!!"]. Everyone is talking about plot [yes, he just contradicted himself...], but not about fixing what was wrong with Oni 1. Would rather read a story about Oni 2 than play it, if it's going to play just like Oni 1.
|-
|-
| 100
| 100
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=9#post_389 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=9#post_389 here]-->
| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Project
| Denies sig having anything to do with his plans for Oni 2. States that Oni 2 should have "perfect" melee combat, "drop-dead" physics, and a "killer" plot, or it's not worth doing. Hints that Croteam [makers of Serious Sam] might find the challenge interesting.
| Denies sig having anything to do with his plans for Oni 2. States that Oni 2 should have "perfect" melee combat, "drop-dead" physics, and a "killer" plot, or it's not worth doing. Hints that Croteam [makers of Serious Sam] might find the challenge interesting.
|-
|-
| 101
| 101
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_397 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_397 here]-->
| Nyctasia
| Nyctasia
| Story
| Muro, Barabas, Mukade
| Wonders if defeating an opponent means killing them or KOing them. Perhaps Muro is still alive somewhere in captivity alongside Barabas, but Mukade is clearly killed by Konoko, although it seems senseless.
| Wonders if defeating an opponent means killing them or KOing them. Perhaps Muro is still alive somewhere in captivity alongside Barabas, but Mukade is clearly killed by Konoko, although it seems senseless.
|-
|-
| 102
| 102
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_398 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Mukade, Barabas, Muro, Project
| Thinks it's the other way around: Konoko seemed to break Mukade's neck, and then left without making sure he was dead. Whereas when she beat Barabas and Muro, she could have stuck around and made sure they were dead. Thinks it likely that Mukade would survive his injury and come back better than ever. Especially Muro would not be allowed by Griffin to live, or if he is, he would be frozen. Muro as a returning villain would be boring anyway. Barabas could be a challenging fight if his abilities have advanced. Mukade would be even tougher. Thinks that Mukade was acting according to a plan in the game, except perhaps for getting his neck broken. Asks if others agree that Mukade was the toughest boss. Recommends everyone try Lugaru, being an interesting proof of concept for combat. Reiterates that the planning for Oni 2 has to start in this thread, whether it becomes a fan-made game or is taken over by "someone big".
| Thinks it's the other way around: Konoko seemed to break Mukade's neck, and then left without making sure he was dead. Whereas when she beat Barabas and Muro, she could have stuck around and made sure they were dead. Thinks it likely that Mukade would survive his injury and come back better than ever. Especially Muro would not be allowed by Griffin to live, or if he is, he would be frozen. Muro as a returning villain would be boring anyway. Barabas could be a challenging fight if his abilities have advanced. Mukade would be even tougher. Thinks that Mukade was acting according to a plan in the game, except perhaps for getting his neck broken. Asks if others agree that Mukade was the toughest boss. Recommends everyone try Lugaru, being an interesting proof of concept for combat. Reiterates that the planning for Oni 2 has to start in this thread, whether it becomes a fan-made game or is taken over by "someone big".
|-
|-
| 103
| 103
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_400 here]
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| Snake007x
| Snake007x
| Story
| Project
| Points out that, although not all gamers appreciate a political storyline, the Metal Gear games have certainly done well.
| Points out that, although not all gamers appreciate a political storyline, the Metal Gear games have certainly done well.
|-
|-
| 104
| 104
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_407 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_407 here]-->
| Nyctasia
| Nyctasia
| Story
| OtherChar, Mukade
| Thinks that Furies are the toughest non-bosses and speculates that there was going to be a Fury boss in the game. Mukade is a level above the other ninjas because of his higher health and his Devil Stars. But Muro is hardest because his moves do the most damage. Thinks that Mukade is dead and that he simply overestimated his abilities, like Barabas; that's why he only took one brown ninja with him at the end. If Konoko can "sense" Mukade, then how did he hide his survival from her? Tells Snake that there was another Bismark [sic] that was all about brute power.
| Thinks that Furies are the toughest non-bosses and speculates that there was going to be a Fury boss in the game. Mukade is a level above the other ninjas because of his higher health and his Devil Stars. But Muro is hardest because his moves do the most damage. Thinks that Mukade is dead and that he simply overestimated his abilities, like Barabas; that's why he only took one brown ninja with him at the end. If Konoko can "sense" Mukade, then how did he hide his survival from her? Tells Snake that there was another Bismarck that was all about brute power.
|-
|-
| 105
| 105
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_414 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_414 here]-->
| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Mukade
| Mukade could have been luring Konoko in, that's why he didn't give himself more bodyguards. Perhaps Konoko doesn't sense him because he goes into a sort of coma after being injured. Or perhaps he's advanced enough that he can choose to hide himself psychically from Konoko. The "senselessness" of Konoko trying to kill him is partly his own fault for working her into a killing frenzy. So if they meet again, he won't resent her for it. Opines that "cat and mouse" refers to Konoko as the mouse, not the cat. Wonders if Nyctasia was referring to the battleship Bismarck.
| Mukade could have been luring Konoko in, that's why he didn't give himself more bodyguards. Perhaps Konoko doesn't sense him because he goes into a sort of coma after being injured. Or perhaps he's advanced enough that he can choose to hide himself psychically from Konoko. The "senselessness" of Konoko trying to kill him is partly his own fault for working her into a killing frenzy. So if they meet again, he won't resent her for it. Opines that "cat and mouse" refers to Konoko as the mouse, not the cat. Wonders if Nyctasia was referring to the battleship Bismarck.
|-
|-
| 106
| 106
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_445 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_445 here]-->
| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Art
| [Posts drawing of Mr. Big and Mai].
| [Posts drawing of Mr. Big and Mai].
|-
|-
| 107
| 107
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_489 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_489 here]-->
| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Art, Project
| [Posts drawing of Syndicate Guard gunner.] [Links to ssg's collection of pre-beta screenshots and the two trailers.] Why did Konoko used to look more mechanical (eyes, skin plugs...)? Was she a cyborg like Motoko originally, and the Daodan stuff was added later? "Motoko" certainly sounds like "Konoko". And Konoko allegedly means "kitty".
| [Posts drawing of Syndicate Guard gunner.] [Links to ssg's collection of pre-beta screenshots and the two trailers.] Why did Konoko used to look more mechanical (eyes, skin plugs...)? Was she a cyborg like Motoko originally, and the Daodan stuff was added later? "Motoko" certainly sounds like "Konoko". And Konoko means "kitty" [...no, it doesn't].
|-
|-
| 108
| 108
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_492 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_492 here]-->
| TNT
| TNT
| Story
| Project
| Why do many of the pre-beta shots look nicer? Glad that blood is gone, it looked awful.
| Why do many of the pre-beta shots look nicer? Glad that blood is gone, it looked awful.
|-
|-
| 109
| 109
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_512 here]
<!--| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_512 here]-->
| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Mr. Big, Mai, OtherChar
| At beginning of Oni 2, a rebellion is brewing. Mr. Big is one of the rebels. He encounters Mai and takes her along on some missions in Vansam City. Enemies are Syndicate troops. Mai is starting to have troubling flashbacks. Mr. Big eventually realizes who she is and helps her recover her memories. Her abilities come back gradually as she gains more awareness of them and she recovers from her "coma". Rebels then have to decide whether to work with her or hold her responsible for the cataclysm. This will cause a schism in the rebellion, with some trying to hurt her or betray her. Perhaps Mai acquires a leadership role herself. Then she meets the world leader and is surprised to find that he knows her.
| At beginning of Oni 2, a rebellion is brewing. Mr. Big is one of the rebels. He encounters Mai and takes her along on some missions in Vansam City. Enemies are Syndicate troops. Mai is starting to have troubling flashbacks. Mr. Big eventually realizes who she is and helps her recover her memories. Her abilities come back gradually as she gains more awareness of them and she recovers from her "coma". Rebels then have to decide whether to work with her or hold her responsible for the cataclysm. This will cause a schism in the rebellion, with some trying to hurt her or betray her. Perhaps Mai acquires a leadership role herself. Then she meets the world leader and is surprised to find that he knows her.
|-
|-
| 110
| 110
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=10#post_513 here]
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| ssg
| ssg
| Story
| Project
| Quotes Alex Okita from Harry's Bungie West interviews explaining what the deal was with Konoko's eyes in the '99 trailer.
| Quotes Alex Okita from Harry's Bungie West interviews explaining what the deal was with Konoko's eyes in the '99 trailer.
|-
|-
| 111
| 111
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=11#post_524 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Project
| So Konoko's eyes were like the SLDs' then.
| So Konoko's eyes were like the SLDs' then.
|-
|-
| 112
| 112
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=11#post_525 here]
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| Gatkowski
| Gatkowski
| Story
| Project
| Doesn't "kono-ko" mean "this child", referring to an orphaned Mai?
| Doesn't "kono-ko" mean "this child", referring to an orphaned Mai?
|-
|-
| 113
| 113
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=11#post_534 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Project, Vehicles, Art
| "konoko" means "cutie" or "sweet thing", applied to kids, pets, etc. [Posts drawing of mechanical combat frame for Mai that could be used to fight Iron Demon.]
| "Konoko" means "cutie" or "sweet thing", applied to kids, pets, etc. [Posts drawing of mechanical combat frame for Mai that could be used to fight Iron Demon.]
|-
|-
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=11#post_535 here]
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| AnonAnom
| AnonAnom
| Story
| Mukade
| Maybe Mukade is an SLD based off Shinatama's engrams, copied by Muro after her abduction. If Mukade was Hasegawa, why would he work for his own son, unless he were secretly organizing things behind Muro's back? And in geyser's theory, Mukade should be more advanced of a symbiote than his children, unless he had it implanted after them, or he hasn't seen much combat due to sneaking around as a ninja.
| Maybe Mukade is an SLD based off Shinatama's engrams, copied by Muro after her abduction. If Mukade was Hasegawa, why would he work for his own son, unless he were secretly organizing things behind Muro's back? And in geyser's theory, Mukade should be more advanced of a symbiote than his children, unless he had it implanted after them, or he hasn't seen much combat due to sneaking around as a ninja.
|-
|-
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=11#post_536 here]
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| typhen
| typhen
| --
| --
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|-
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=11#post_537 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Settings, Pollution, Griffin, OtherChar, Mai
| Since "chenille" means butterfly, is tempted to name sequel Oni 2: Butterfly Effect. Going forward 20 years will allow technology to improve, new architecture to develop, and the air to become breathable, at least under domes. A new order will be established, and Griffin will be gone either way (regardless of Oni's ending), and his children will be grown up. Reiterates ideas about Mai waking up in cave with no memories. Then describes her coming back to the cave looking for a message from herself. She runs into Syndicate forces who are swarming the area looking for her, and she has to escape the cave and Wilderness and get back to Mr. Big.
| Since "chenille" means butterfly, is tempted to name sequel Oni 2: Butterfly Effect. Going forward 20 years will allow technology to improve, new architecture to develop, and the air to become breathable, at least under domes. A new order will be established, and Griffin will be gone either way (regardless of Oni's ending), and his children will be grown up. Reiterates ideas about Mai waking up in cave with no memories. Then describes her coming back to the cave looking for a message from herself. She runs into Syndicate forces who are swarming the area looking for her, and she has to escape the cave and Wilderness and get back to Mr. Big.
|-
|-
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=11#post_538 here]
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| typhen
| typhen
| Project
| Project
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| 118
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=11#post_539 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Project
| Project
| Thinks "skeletal animation" is perfectly feasible [he missed the "dynamic" part of typhen's statement]. No game needs 100% perfect clipping, 80% or 90% will do. Points to Pierre as example of what just one person can do. An improved Oni (adding the ID, MP, new maps) could be done in "not much more than a year". But sure, an Oni 2 will take longer. Will continue to write and plan the game. Will buy Serious Sam II when it comes out to investigate the engine (thinks it will seriously speed up development time). "Once the plot and models and art are up and going, I'd definitely get someone 'Big' to carry on the project." A studio like CroTeam should be interested in making an Oni 2 if the fans create a compelling sort of rough version of how it would look.
| Thinks "skeletal animation" is perfectly feasible [he missed the "dynamic" part of typhen's statement]. No game needs 100% perfect clipping, 80% or 90% will do. Points to Pierre as example of what just one person can do. An improved Oni (adding the ID, MP, new maps) could be done in "not much more than a year". But sure, an Oni 2 will take longer. Will continue to write and plan the game. Will buy Serious Sam II when it comes out to investigate the engine; thinks it will seriously speed up development time. "Once the plot and models and art are up and going, I'd definitely get someone 'Big' to carry on the project." A studio like CroTeam should be interested in making an Oni 2 if the fans create a compelling sort of rough version of how it would look.
|-
|-
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=11#post_540 here]
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| typhen
| typhen
| Story/Gameplay
| Society, Pollution, Syndicate, Mukade, Gameplay, Mai
| What if, 20 years after Oni, most humans live in cities with repaired atmo. processors, but some have Chrysalises and live outside the cities in their own settlements. Normal humans can venture outside in suits for a limited time, which are manufactured and controlled by the TCTF. Syndicate troops live inside and outside the cities, but they have the most power outside. The Chrysalises came from the Syndicate, but they are inferior to Konoko's. Mukade is running the Syndicate. Konoko can use her adaptive abilities to survive being thrown into pits of acid (which she can throw enemies into) and swim underwater for long periods of time, allowing stealthy approaches to situations. Imagines Konoko breaking into TCTF HQ and speaking to new commander, then escaping TCTF soldiers into the Wilderness, where the Syndicate attacks her. Likes idea of Konoko being underdog; she can be outnumbered, but not out-run. She can even jump-kick pilots chasing her in helicopters. Hopes that she would still be young in appearance, and also that she's not transformed into something ugly.
| What if, 20 years after Oni, most humans live in cities with repaired atmo. processors, but some have Chrysalises and live outside the cities in their own settlements. Normal humans can venture outside in suits for a limited time, which are manufactured and controlled by the TCTF. Syndicate troops live inside and outside the cities, but they have the most power outside. The Chrysalises came from the Syndicate, but they are inferior to Konoko's. Mukade is running the Syndicate. Konoko can use her adaptive abilities to survive being thrown into pits of acid (which she can throw enemies into) and swim underwater for long periods of time, allowing stealthy approaches to situations. Imagines Konoko breaking into TCTF HQ and speaking to new commander, then escaping TCTF soldiers into the Wilderness, where the Syndicate attacks her. Likes idea of Konoko being underdog; she can be outnumbered, but not out-run. She can even jump-kick pilots chasing her in helicopters. Hopes that she would still be young in appearance, and also that she's not transformed into something ugly.
|-
|-
| 120
| 120
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=11#post_542 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Mukade, Barabas, Shinatama, Muro, Pollution, Society, Syndicate, Mai, Gameplay, Daodan
| Thinks that AnonAnom's ideas are interesting, but still prefers Mukade=Dad hypothesis for the more interesting story it yields. Not sure that you can extract an SLD's engrams like that anyway, certainly not that quickly. And you can't implant a Daodan into an SLD [is this true?]. But maybe Barabas was a cyborg who was given a Daodan; the Daodan only modified his organic parts, thus explaining his incomplete transformation. Shinatama can appear elsewhere in Oni 2 (likes Owldreamer's ideas for her/Hikari). Mukade could be Hasegawa and still work for Muro, as he has plenty of leeway in carrying out his missions. He might prefer to observe from the shadows while Muro does his dictator thing, plus it lets him get close to Mai. And he might indeed have plans which are unknown to Muro. Agrees with typhen that air could be breathable again in 20 years, esp. with Mukade being a scientist and having "ET-enhanced intelligence". Would not call TCTF the "TCTF" anymore; "if Mai's amnesiac, you don't want too many bells to ring at once." And why would Mai go to the police HQ? They'd be more likely to take her in when she shows up on the streets. You then have to escape custody. Dislikes idea of Chrysalis folk; too many difficult implications, and besides, why would they ally with Mai? And the Syndicate should definitely be the world power since they were the world's only army and they were ready for the Cataclysm. Doesn't see Syndicate getting scattered or putting Chrysalises in everyone, only a trusted few close to Mukade. Mai would definitely be young and human-looking, as the Chrysalis will aim for immortality and also allowing the host to fit in with its kin and not be destroyed. Does want her to be weakened so player can learn her abilities gradually as she recovers them. The "hardsuits" that let you play in "Godzilla" mode will use the same combat system so you already know how to control it. Like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly, Mai's diet could change radically, allowing her to go without much food. Maybe she could have a "teleport gauge" that allows her to automatically escape instant-death situations like the ones in Rooftops if she has enough charge built up. Prefers his "shattered rebellion" idea to a simple alternation between Wilderness and City; allows for more variety in situations, more character motivations, and more interesting story developments. Agrees that Mai should be able to take out helicopters by jumping, even vaulting from one to another in order to climb, or throwing objects at them like expended weapons. Has more plans for how weapons are used in melee combat....
| Thinks that AnonAnom's ideas are interesting, but still prefers Mukade=Dad hypothesis for the more interesting story it yields. Not sure that you can extract an SLD's engrams like that anyway, certainly not that quickly. And you can't implant a Daodan into an SLD [this is not stated anywhere explicitly, however SLDs are inorganic, so this is probably true]. But maybe Barabas was a cyborg who was given a Daodan; the Daodan only modified his organic parts, thus explaining his incomplete transformation. Shinatama can appear elsewhere in Oni 2 (likes Owldreamer's ideas for her/Hikari). Mukade could be Hasegawa and still work for Muro, as he has plenty of leeway in carrying out his missions. He might prefer to observe from the shadows while Muro does his dictator thing, plus it lets him get close to Mai. And he might indeed have plans which are unknown to Muro. Agrees with typhen that air could be breathable again in 20 years, esp. with Mukade being a scientist and having "ET-enhanced intelligence". Would not call TCTF the "TCTF" anymore; "if Mai's amnesiac, you don't want too many bells to ring at once." And why would Mai go to the police HQ? They'd be more likely to take her in when she shows up on the streets. You then have to escape custody. Dislikes idea of Chrysalis folk; too many difficult implications, and besides, why would they ally with Mai? And the Syndicate should definitely be the world power since they were the world's only army and they were ready for the Cataclysm. Doesn't see Syndicate getting scattered or putting Chrysalises in everyone, only a trusted few close to Mukade. Mai would definitely be young and human-looking, as the Chrysalis will aim for immortality and also allowing the host to fit in with its kin and not be destroyed. Does want her to be weakened so player can learn her abilities gradually as she recovers them. The "hardsuits" that let you play in "Godzilla" mode will use the same combat system so you already know how to control it. Like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly, Mai's diet could change radically, allowing her to go without much food. Maybe she could have a "teleport gauge" that allows her to automatically escape instant-death situations like the ones in Rooftops if she has enough charge built up. Prefers his "shattered rebellion" idea to a simple alternation between Wilderness and City; allows for more variety in situations, more character motivations, and more interesting story developments. Agrees that Mai should be able to take out helicopters by jumping, even vaulting from one to another in order to climb, or throwing objects at them like expended weapons. Has more plans for how weapons are used in melee combat....
|-
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=12#post_543 here]
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| typhen
| typhen
| Story/Gameplay
| Gameplay, Daodan
| Acknowledges that he wasn't thinking of plot implications when it comes to his ideas. His main interest is gameplay; remove the Chrysalis folk if they aren't going to lead to some fun gameplay concepts. Thinks that geyser's idea of throwing things like vehicles at aerial enemies is better than jumping super-high. How would you control the jump, esp. when indoors or leaping from roof to roof? Maybe Konoko should breathe fire. Also, wonders what happens when a Daodan symbiote gets pregnant.
| Acknowledges that he wasn't thinking of plot implications when it comes to his ideas. His main interest is gameplay; remove the Chrysalis folk if they aren't going to lead to some fun gameplay concepts. Thinks that geyser's idea of throwing things like vehicles at aerial enemies is better than jumping super-high. How would you control the jump, esp. when indoors or leaping from roof to roof? Maybe Konoko should breathe fire. Also, wonders what happens when a Daodan symbiote gets pregnant.
|-
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=12#post_548 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Project/Story/Gameplay
| Project, Daodan, Gameplay
| Doesn't want to make too many outdoor areas, instead focusing on making the Cave map perfect and using it twice. Rejects the idea of "Chrysalis to the people". High-jumping would be directed by a targeting system. You'd have a gauge for "high jumping, fast running, strong punching, teleporting, throwing heavy stuff, KAMEHAMEHAing balls of fire etc." Falling off a roof can be solved with either auto-teleporting (also on a gauge) or else allowing the player to continue through the level on the ground. Dislikes idea of a holstered gun disappearing as in Oni 1. They could have anti-gravity devices on them so that they float up in the air above Konoko until she grabs them again. Or perhaps she can throw them very high up, do some melee fighting, then grab the gun as it falls (the game can show where the gun is going to land). Large guns probably shouldn't be holsterable at all; you either carry them and get slowed down, or drop them and regain your agility. [Links to Serious Sam 2 footage about which he is very excited.] Loves open spaces in SSII and the futuristic cities. Doesn't want to consider having Mai get pregnant, as that requires working in a romantic angle. Doubts that a fully-integrated symbiote would even reproduce in a normal human way. Perhaps they simply "bud" when it's time to reproduce. Fighting a bunch of budded Mukade clones might be interesting, but it's not something he's keen on.
| Doesn't want to make too many outdoor areas, instead focusing on making the Cave map perfect and using it twice. Rejects the idea of "Chrysalis to the people". High-jumping would be directed by a targeting system. You'd have a gauge for "high jumping, fast running, strong punching, teleporting, throwing heavy stuff, KAMEHAMEHAing balls of fire etc." Falling off a roof can be solved with either auto-teleporting (also on a gauge) or else allowing the player to continue through the level on the ground. Dislikes idea of a holstered gun disappearing as in Oni 1. They could have anti-gravity devices on them so that they float up in the air above Konoko until she grabs them again. Or perhaps she can throw them very high up, do some melee fighting, then grab the gun as it falls (the game can show where the gun is going to land). Large guns probably shouldn't be holsterable at all; you either carry them and get slowed down, or drop them and regain your agility. [Links to Serious Sam 2 footage about which he is ''very'' excited.] Loves open spaces in SSII and the futuristic cities. Doesn't want to consider having Mai get pregnant, as that requires working in a romantic angle. Doubts that a fully-integrated symbiote would even reproduce in a normal human way. Perhaps they simply "bud" when it's time to reproduce. Fighting a bunch of budded Mukade clones might be interesting, but it's not something he's keen on.
|-
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| ssg
| ssg
| Project
| Project
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| geyser
| geyser
| Project
| Project
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| geyser
| geyser
| Project
| Project
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=12#post_670 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Project
| Art
| [Posts pics from Syndicate Wars' CG intro as model for Oni 2's real-time look.]
| [Posts pics from Syndicate Wars' CG intro as model for Oni 2's real-time look.]
|-
|-
| 127
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=12#post_742 here]
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| Seraf Ethifeo
| Seraf Ethifeo
| Story
| Daodan, Mukade
| What if ETs governing the Daodan are immaterial, and so they have to convert humans to serve as ambassadors? But the issue is that the mutated Daodan hosts won't look very human, so Mukade would need to rule from the shadows.
| What if ETs governing the Daodan are immaterial, and so they have to convert humans to serve as ambassadors? But the issue is that the mutated Daodan hosts won't look very human, so Mukade would need to rule from the shadows.
|-
|-
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=12#post_744 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Mukade, Daodan
| Mukade probably is still mostly human-looking, as he is human-sized in Oni. Perhaps his near-death experience caused him to mutate, but he can probably still wear a mask while in public. But what do these "oni" want with us? Are they benevolent, and are evolving us in order to allow us to avoid a catastrophe to humanity that they know is coming, or are they using us for their own ends? Are they just indifferent to us?
| Mukade probably is still mostly human-looking, as he is human-sized in Oni. Perhaps his near-death experience caused him to mutate, but he can probably still wear a mask while in public. But what do these "oni" want with us? Are they benevolent, and are evolving us in order to allow us to avoid a catastrophe to humanity that they know is coming, or are they using us for their own ends? Are they just indifferent to us?
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=12#post_752 here]
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| Seraf Ethifeo
| Seraf Ethifeo
| Story
| Daodan
| Perhaps there's a threat they want to avoid, but since it's physical, they need our help.
| Perhaps there's a threat they want to avoid, but since it's physical, they need our help.
|-
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=12#post_1083 here]
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| ZDLO
| ZDLO
| --
| --
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=13#post_1084 here]
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| ZDLO
| ZDLO
| --
| --
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| ZDLO
| ZDLO
| --
| --
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| geyser
| geyser
| --
| --
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| TNT
| TNT
| Story
| Themes
| Quotes a post of geyser's [from where? not this thread?] about not wanting to tell an Oni 2 story that is relentlessly dark because it's numbing for the player. Disagrees, a dark story can still have strong emotion. Although Oni 1 didn't really use any visual language to augment its story except perhaps in Dream Lab, where the feeling is dismal and enclosed because of the space Konoko is in while listening to her father's account.
| Quotes a post of geyser's [from another thread] about not wanting to tell an Oni 2 story that is relentlessly dark because it's numbing for the player. Disagrees, a dark story can still have strong emotion. Although Oni 1 didn't really use any visual language to augment its story except perhaps in Dream Lab, where the feeling is dismal and enclosed because of the space Konoko is in while listening to her father's account.
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=13#post_2525 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Themes
| Is not against darkness in Oni 2, just unrelenting darkness. Agrees that darkness isn't really used for story purposes in Oni, although perhaps for corner-cutting purposes on a technical level. Oni is fairly glum overall, but was more colorful in pre-beta.
| Is not against darkness in Oni 2, just unrelenting darkness. Agrees that darkness isn't really used for story purposes in Oni, although perhaps for corner-cutting purposes on a technical level. Oni is fairly glum overall, but was more colorful in pre-beta.
|-
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=13#post_2574 here]
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| TNT
| TNT
| Story
| Themes
| Agrees that we don't want a story that just keeps getting darker. There's enough misery in real life.
| Agrees that we don't want a story that just keeps getting darker. There's enough misery in real life.
|-
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=13#post_2592 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Themes
| Yes, but sometimes over-the-top misery in fiction is a welcome distraction from realistic miseries. Isn't that what noir is about?
| Yes, but sometimes over-the-top misery in fiction is a welcome distraction from realistic miseries. Isn't that what noir is about?
|-
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| 138
| 138
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=13#post_2604 here]
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| TNT
| TNT
| Story
| Themes
| Thought geyser didn't want a dark story where it's just a question of who dies next and gives Mai a reason to kill more bad guys. Noir genre can also involve detective work. But you don't need to show everything to the viewer. Their imagination can fill in some things, although the effectiveness of the subtlety varies with one's personality.
| Thought geyser didn't want a dark story where it's just a question of who dies next and gives Mai a reason to kill more bad guys. Noir genre can also involve detective work. But you don't need to show everything to the viewer. Their imagination can fill in some things, although the effectiveness of the subtlety varies with one's personality.
|-
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| 139
| 139
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=13#post_2616 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Themes
| Wasn't advocating darkness in Oni 2 per se. However, Oni's world "allows for a multifaceted plot: from the most trivial to the most complex, there's cops and criminals (or government and rebellion), friendship and betrayal, mercy and vengeance, insanity and kinslaying, questionable humanity (androids, cyborgs, clones, symbiotes), non-human intelligence, grand design... It's quite rich indeed, so if there's darkness, it won't be trivial who-dies-next darkness. Neither will the player really know what kind of plot twists to expect. Oni (2) is not confined to a genre (such as "noir" for [Max Payne]), it's rather complex science-fiction (maybe more complex than Ghost in the Shell, even), and I think it's a very good thing." Also, we should have some nightmare sequences in Oni 2.
| Wasn't advocating darkness in Oni 2 per se. However, Oni's world "allows for a multifaceted plot: from the most trivial to the most complex, there's cops and criminals (or government and rebellion), friendship and betrayal, mercy and vengeance, insanity and kinslaying, questionable humanity (androids, cyborgs, clones, symbiotes), non-human intelligence, grand design... It's quite rich indeed, so if there's darkness, it won't be trivial who-dies-next darkness. Neither will the player really know what kind of plot twists to expect. Oni (2) is not confined to a genre (such as "noir" for Max Payne), it's rather complex science-fiction (maybe more complex than Ghost in the Shell, even), and I think it's a very good thing." Also, we should have some nightmare sequences in Oni 2.
|-
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| 140
| 140
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=13#post_2661 here]
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| TNT
| TNT
| Story
| Themes
| Doubts we can create the kind of depth that GitS has, but agrees otherwise.
| Doubts we can create the kind of depth that GitS has, but agrees otherwise.
|-
|-
| 141
| 141
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=14#post_2707 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Mukade, Hasegawa
| Recapitulates his theory on Mukade: the attack on TCTF HQ was Muro's doing, but the Regional State operation was Mukade's. He planned the confrontation with Mai, and he dropped a disc with only the information he wanted her to have. Mukade is Mai's dad. He survived their fight.
| Recapitulates his theory on Mukade: the attack on TCTF HQ was Muro's doing, but the Regional State operation was Mukade's. He planned the confrontation with Mai, and he dropped a disc with only the information he wanted her to have. Mukade is Mai's dad. He survived their fight.
|-
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| 142
| 142
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=14#post_2711 here]
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| guido
| guido
| Story
| Mukade
| Agrees with almost all of geyser's ideas concerning Mukade. "I think he could assume a number of very different (maybe conflicting) roles, even in a single storyline. I also think that his relationship with Konoko should be kept ambiguous in any case." [Posts picture but link is broken. I think it was an earlier version of [[:Image:GUIDO_Mai_Tandem_2.jpg|THIS]].]
| Agrees with almost all of geyser's ideas concerning Mukade. "I think he could assume a number of very different (maybe conflicting) roles, even in a single storyline. I also think that his relationship with Konoko should be kept ambiguous in any case." [Posts picture but link is broken. I think it was an earlier version of [[:Image:Guido - Mai_Tandem_2.jpg|THIS]].]
|-
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| 143
| 143
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=14#post_2713 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Mukade, Vehicles
| Doesn't think Mukade can be that ambiguous. And how can Mai sit next to him smiling like they didn't fight to the death earlier? But the idea of multiple Mukades is interesting, whether images or clones, making him more enigmatic. Doesn't like giant Akira-style bikes. [Points out various errors in the drawing's perspective, concept, etc.]
| Doesn't think Mukade can be that ambiguous. And how can Mai sit next to him smiling like they didn't fight to the death earlier? But the idea of multiple Mukades is interesting, whether images or clones, making him more enigmatic. Doesn't like giant Akira-style bikes. Points out various errors in the drawing's perspective, concept, etc.
|-
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| 144
| 144
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=14#post_2721 here]
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| TNT
| TNT
| Story
| Mukade
| Doesn't think a ninja would ride a giant motorcycle around.
| Doesn't think a ninja would ride a giant motorcycle around.
|-
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| 145
| 145
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=14#post_2722 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Mukade, Vehicles
| Yes, Mukade should have a quieter method of transportation, maybe something more like Spiderman, or a grappling hook gun. He ought to be able to invent a hover vehicle.
| Yes, Mukade should have a quieter method of transportation, maybe something more like Spiderman's web slinger, or a grappling hook gun. He ought to be able to invent a hover vehicle.
|-
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| 146
| 146
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=14#post_2730 here]
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| Your_Mom
| Your_Mom
| Story
| Mukade
| Why didn't Mukade teleport away from Konoko instead of letting her catch him? Points out that we don't know Hasegawa's first name. Mai and Muro both begin with an 'M'....
| Why didn't Mukade teleport away from Konoko instead of letting her catch him? Points out that we don't know Hasegawa's first name. Mai and Muro both begin with an 'M'....
|-
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| 147
| 147
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=14#post_2732 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Mukade
| Yes, that's what he's getting at. But if the relationship is supposed to be ambiguous, it's not in Guido's pic....
| Yes, that's what he's getting at. But if the relationship is supposed to be ambiguous, it's not in Guido's pic....
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| 148
| 148
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=14#post_2735 here]
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| TNT
| TNT
| Story
| Mukade
| Ending the story without disambiguating Mukade would be rather unsatisfying for the player. Maybe Mukade *wanted* to fight Mai.
| Ending the story without disambiguating Mukade would be rather unsatisfying for the player. Maybe Mukade *wanted* to fight Mai.
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| 149
| 149
| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=14#post_2736 here]
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| geyser
| geyser
| Story
| Mukade
| Yes, that's what he's getting at! It's all too convenient that Mukade doesn't jump out the window until Mai has finally gotten through the building's ninjas and made her way up there, and that Konoko manages to catch up to him on the roof only once he's alone.
| Yes, that's what he's getting at! It's all too convenient that Mukade doesn't jump out the window until Mai has finally gotten through the building's ninjas and made her way up there, and that Konoko manages to catch up to him on the roof only once he's alone.
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| 150
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| [http://konokoffin.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=9&page=14#post_2746 here]
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| Guido
| Guido
| Art
| Art

Latest revision as of 23:25, 20 February 2022

Pages 1-15 (the first half) of the thread "A Storyline for Oni 2" from OCF are summarized below, for eventual further summarization on the Oni2:A Storyline page. The summary of pages 16-30 is found here.

A storyline for Oni 2
(unimportant posts = "--")
(my notes in square brackets)

Post # Poster Keywords Summary
1 geyser Daodan Introduction; "What does the Chrysalis want?"
2 TNT Daodan Maybe nothing; Daodan just wants to survive. "Are you suggesting that the Daodan is sentient?"
3 geyser Daodan "Yes."
4 owldreamer Project "Start learning how to create game levels from scratch before writing a storyline."
5 Script 10000 -- --
6 geyser Project "What I'll post here can be just a literary effort. [...] Or, it can be a full-scale game project." Mentions that he has level designs on paper.
7 Kumo Project, MainChar What tools would we use? What if the game is told from the POV of a friend of Mai's? The Chrysalis is being used as a cure, but only now are the dangers becoming known, and she seeks out Mai for answers.
8 owldreamer Project Recommends Wings3D, Cinema4D CE 6, Nendo, Mirai. Asks to see geyser's level designs.
9 geyser Project, Settings Also mentions Blender. Designs aren't in a format ready to post yet. Training level could be set in a natural cave, and player is helped to "remember" the controls and their abilities. Some settings: Vansam City, under control of government, not totally post-apocalyptic; a dingy nightclub in a warehouse; a lounge in a skyscraper; various streets and suburbs; a "man hunt" in a mall closed for the night; and lots of natural settings with trees and grass. Likes idea of chaos in serene nature settings.
10 geyser MainChar, Mai, Gameplay, Daodan, Vehicles Mai would not have the answers for the Daodan because she was ignorant in Oni 1. Mai should be main character since she has the appeal and the powers; Chrysalis use would be opposed by public; gov't puts project under wraps, some people try to investigate. Wishes for drivable vehicles, palpable superpowers (breaking stuff with fists, super-high jumps, throwing energy balls), capable allies in combat, ability to disguise as allies, parts of game where you have to wear disguise. Mentions that some of this is on Pierre's to-do list for KP. Elaborates on "chenille" referring to restructuring of the body's internals while the outside remains the same (like a chrysalis) until it's time for the new being to emerge.
11 TNT MainChar Likes Kumo's idea of main character not being Mai. Super-powered playable Mai would be overpowered. If the gov't is not using Chrysalises yet, then that's why the main char. seeks Mai out.
12 Pierre Gameplay, Vehicles Vehicles are easy to code, but of limited usefulness; would rather drive a "battle hardsuit from Bubblegum Crisis" using ZOE 2's controls. Laments lack of artists. Affirms that he has done, or will do, the other things that geyser listed, except for allies and disguises. Overpower mode should be gauge-limited, not time-limited.
13 ssg -- --
14 geyser Gameplay, Daodan, Mai Mai won't be overpowered because she'll be matched up with many strong opponents and weapons. They will be easy to defeat one-on-one, but they'll be attacking in groups to make it challenging. "Butterfly" Mai should be similar to her original form, rather than uglifying her like Imago Muro. Maybe a hair color change when she transforms. Admits that Imago Muro was pretty overpowered because he was mostly invulnerable and reaffirms desire to time-limit Mai's powers.
15 Kumo MainChar, Gameplay, Mai, Daodan Acknowledges that Mai won't know much about the Chrysalis either, but she is searching for the truth while main char. searches for Mai. Suggests that they only meet at the last boss fight, and that maybe the game be playable with both characters. Maybe gov't hasn't put Chrysalises to public use yet, but is experimenting on its police officers. What if limit on Daodan use is not health (overhealing with hypos) but rather "damage taken and time fought", allowing mid-battle transformations? Changing Mai's hair color is blasphemous. Using disguises would slow down an action game.
16 geyser Gameplay, MainChar, Vehicles, Daodan, Mai Mai's hair shape should stay the same, but something like a color change is needed for the transformation (makes reference to DBZ's Super Saiyan transformation). "Last boss fight" - you mean, fight against Mai? And wouldn't main char. be much weaker than Mai? Likes his suggestion of a more adventure-esque side story with a female investigator. "Land vehicle" he mentioned earlier would be like Konoko's bike in Oni 1; maybe you can jump onto it and ride it hands-free. Is fine with idea of gauge-limited overpower mode, but wants gauge to increase over course of game. Elaborates on interactive environment: kicking boxes, climbing ropes and some walls, breaking some objects with bare fists and some only when in overpower, and some only with heavy weapons. Also taking injury from falling down stairs (triggering rag doll physics), from being driven into wall by attack, or from running into closed door; suggests ways to prevent this from being an annoyance. Fast-moving character has to lean into turns or else they will slide/fall (at least when on bike), and with proper velocity one can run around the walls of a room. References racing games that use friction and "local gravity" to allow loop-de-loops and such.
17 Kumo Gameplay, MainChar, Daodan, Mai Likes idea of DBZ-style power-up scene. Clarifies that he meant fighting alongside Mai. In response to main char. being weaker, maybe (again, referencing DBZ) the newer generation of Chrysalis reaches maturity faster. Likes wall-running idea, suggests using it for counter-attacks a la Double Dragon [I couldn't find video of that, but here's a video of Double Dragon III, a game that predated Street Fighter II -- some of these moves look pretty familiar ^_^]. But wall flips would be hard to do without being able to see behind you. Suggests that Mai's hair grow when she transforms, and float in the air.
18 geyser Gameplay, Daodan, Hasegawa A "proximity map" in corner of screen would let you see who is behind you. Asks Pierre if a black hole gun is doable. Long floating hair would obscure player's view. Did Hasegawa really start working with Daodan only after Jamie died? Was only months or days [actually, Konoko was orphaned at age 3, which gives us up to 3 years between Jamie dying and Mai being taken from her dad] before Syndicate raided his lab and found his two Chrysalises. Perhaps he lied in his diary.
19 owldreamer Project, Vehicles Points out that natural settings are hard to make, hence the advantage to knowing game development before writing a story. Posts pic of his Hikari model [without naming her, causing confusion]. Fighting with a hardsuit hand-to-hand would be boring.
20 Alloc -- --
21 geyser Project Acknowledges difficulty of natural settings, but would be content with how Serious Engine did it three years ago [2002]. And anyway, fun is most important factor, not graphics. Likes some of owldreamer's model, but arms are too small. Is it supposed to be Mai?
22 owldreamer Project, MainChar Is not Mai. Thinks original Mai model should be used, or else a new character be created for sequel. Arms are following standard anime proportions. Hair was difficult to simulate. Will convert to in-game model when done. Doesn't think much of sequel having powered-up Mai.
23 Onifan -- --
24 Pierre Gameplay, Vehicles Agrees with notion of DBZ-style power-up sequence. Explains difficulty of "local gravity". Isn't sure what geyser wants from a black hole gun. Fails to see issue with strong character needing strong opponents. Fighting in suit would be basically identical to regular melee fighting, but flashier, so why would it be boring?
25 Pierre Gameplay Replying to geyser's earlier wish list: has already implemented kicking boxes; climbing would need new anims; breaking walls presents AI pathfinding difficulties; rag dolls for falling down stairs not advisable because it's too hard to go from rag doll back to canned animation; thinks taking damage from running into walls and doors would get annoying.
26 geyser Gameplay Has less of a concern with Hikari's hair than her face looking plastic. Wonders if kicked boxes in KP impact characters? Black hole gun effect is mainly a visual one, not physics. Can't rag doll-to-canned anims be interpolated?
27 Pierre Gameplay Yes, kicked boxes can hurt characters. Interpolation looks awful.
28 geyser Settings, MainChar, Hikari, Mai Hadn't realized Hikari was an SLD, that explains the face. How tall is she compared to Mai? Just read owldreamer's proposal (http://www.haibane.de/oni/, dead link) for an Oni 2. Likes it, but it's adventurey, not actiony; should be a separate game, maybe with Hikari and Mai glimpsing each other throughout game and meeting at the end. Taking place 20 years after Oni is what he had in mind, too, but not with Mai dead, but in fact the same apparent age as in Oni.
29 Kumo Gameplay, Mai Didn't want action-less story, maybe there are street fights. Also wants Mai to be alive for sequel. Agrees with notion of two separate games.
30 TheTurnipKing Daodan As far as what Chrysalis "wants", aren't the Chrysalises just hyper-evolved versions of the hosts? Wonders if more than two Chrysalises were made.
31 owldreamer Mai, Hikari Doesn't plan for Mai to actually be dead, just to shock the player and then have Mai show up later. Hikari is same height as Mai, for story reasons and so that she can use Mai's animations.
32 geyser Daodan, OtherChar, Screaming Cells Reiterates that Daodan is a separate entity that replaces the host. Points to mention of its "unearthly" abilities. It could be a "sentient cancer from outer space". From "another dimension"... wherever Screaming Cells and Mukade's Devil Star are from. Chrysalis is what results when this alien lifeform comes into contact with one of us. Its cells are like stem cells that don't lose their totipotence and which split rapidly and want to replace other cells. Smarter than cancer because it doesn't kill its host. Perhaps Daodan comes from superior, immaterial beings who want to evolve material life to serve some purpose of their own... references Asimov [is referring to "Does A Bee Care?", one of my favorite Asimov stories. Here's a shoddy summary of that short story, but you're better off reading the real thing than spoiling it for yourself.] Muro's monstrous transformation was a result of being unstable (noting the talk of "stability" with regards to Mai in the story); he developed too fast. Daodan has to gather info about host by finishing an initial transformation before it can settle down and adapt at a "standby" rate. Aura in overpower mode is visible aspect of the original immaterial Daodan being, which continues to guide the process. Unlike host, it's immortal. Responding to TTK, says that there are three or four prime symbiotes (counts Barabas and Mukade). Asks why owldreamer why Hikari should simply re-use Mai's animations. Is his Syndicate leader a Daodan Imago? Asks for opinions on cel shading.
33 TheTurnipKing Daodan, Mukade, Barabas, Mai Explains his point that if the Daodan has become Mai, then it still *is* Mai, mentally at least. Physically, food consumption should be less since the Daodan must be drawing energy from more than food anyway. Mai and Muro were the only prime symbiotes, based off Hasegawa Chrysalises. Mukade and Barabas are Muro's attempts at modified Daodans; Baba is just strong, whereas the ninja is a "much more complete package". Shouldn't be possible to communicate with Daodan as it is analogous to a disease, but perhaps one can still guide its development. Likes cel shading, but wants whatever style is best for the story.
34 TNT Daodan, Barabas Wants cel shading for Oni 2. Reminds geyser that he suggested once that Barabas' Chrysalis is a clone of Muro's, thus making him not a prime symbiote.
35 geyser Daodan, Kerr, Barabas, Mukade, Mai Doesn't agree that Daodan simply becomes a new Mai. Kerr's "expression of your true nature" speech was mostly a hopeful attempt at being reassuring. Points to her violent expression when in overpower mode as evidence of another "nature" than Mai's taking root. Agrees that Daodan has another source of energy besides food. Daodan should at least be "smart", if not "intelligent", seeing as it alters the insides of the host without changing the outside. Makes host hard to kill. Must have a purpose. If Screamers are sentient, this thing must be a genius. Thinks that some of Muro's biomass was grafted to Barabas to mutate him. That means Barabas is not prime, but Mukade must be, considering how "perfect" his abilities are, and his mental connection with Mai that she doesn't have with Shinnie or Muro.
36 Gatkowski TCTF, Syndicate, Themes Has been writing fanfics that focus on the characters and their back story because they're underdeveloped. In his ideas for Oni 2, TCTF and Syndicate have to join forces to save humanity. Points out that a good storyline can also be based on characters and personalities.
37 TheTurnipKing Daodan, Themes, Mukade, Muro Not sure that Mukade is perfect (he could be a freak under the mask), or that his abilities all come from Daodan. He doesn't have Muro's and Mai's aura. Reiterates that if a complete copy is being made, memories and all, then Imago host should still be themselves, unless they're "broken" in some way "like Muro". But perhaps another stage of evolution kicks in after the first one.... Doubts that Screamers or Daodans are all that intelligent based on their actions. Compares humans in storyline to cancer; both exploit their resources until the host (or planet) is dead. Perhaps Daodan represents a change in attitude to living in harmony with nature.
38 geyser Daodan, Mukade, Mai, Themes, Screaming Cells Points out that Mukade doesn't show his face because he's a ninja, not necessarily because he's a freak. Lack of aura is because he doesn't go into overpower mode like Mai and Muro. Points out that a copy is never an original, by definition. The Imago host is upgraded in all ways. If it doesn't have the same biological needs as a human, then why should Mai's motivations or way of thinking remain the same? Then again, the brain remains "whole" even as it is replaced by the Daodan, so there's a certain kind of common identity between host and Daodan. Explains that "sentient" in context of Screamers doesn't mean "human-like intellect", just feeling and responding to sensation. Thinks, however, that the aura is what separates the Daodan from the merely sentient Screamer, and represents a guiding entity. Story would be much less interesting without this kind of intelligent design. Agrees with idea of another stage of evolution after Imago. Responding to Gatkowski, feels that there is not enough room in an action game for a focus on personalities [...?!......?!?!]. Wants story to be light, with back story and scientific details hidden in optional places like consoles and diary. Should have some humor in there, too.
39 Gatkowski -- --
40 TheTurnipKing Daodan, Mukade Lack of overpower for Mukade proves his point about Mukade not being a prime symbiote. Agrees that an Imago symbiote would be different, but they would still remember being human. Where *does* Daodan gets its energy from? Still thinks Daodan is little smarter than cells. The aura could be the upgraded "ghost" of the host. As far as introducing an "ETs with a purpose" angle, prefers that Oni be left open to interpretation. Asks if anyone has read the Dark Horse comics, and if they explain any more of Oni's abbreviated story [HA!].
41 geyser Daodan, Themes Situation with Daodan replacing someone cell by cell is more complex than a clone killing his original; at what point does one individual cease to be when he is replaced gradually by another? Suggests that TTK's "ghost" aura is the actual "oni" that Brent had in mind. Agrees that some openness is good, and appreciates the room for interpretation that it allows in a sequel. No, comics don't really explain anything in the game's story.
42 TheTurnipKing Daodan Difference in geyser's clone example is that the clone has a different past; the question there is "if two fundamentally identical people live different lives, would they end up differently"? It goes back to "nature vs. nurture" because their nature is the exact same but their "nurture" was different. Daodan situation is the reverse: the nurture is shared, but the nature is very different.
43 geyser Daodan Disagrees, Daodan does not share host's past. Any current/future stimuli are shared by the Chrysalis and host, and the Chrysalis is stronger so it's "hogging" the stimuli. But let's not get too philosophical about the nature of Mai, let's just think of her as upgraded for now and continue working on understanding the details of Oni's story before inventing new facts. Why not talk about Mukade for a while? Expresses enthusiasm for coming Serious Engine II as an ideal engine for Oni 2.
44 TheTurnipKing Mukade, Barabas, Shinatama, Themes We know nothing about Mukade, not even his (?) gender. Perhaps he's a Daodan host, perhaps he's a mutated clone of Konoko. Mukade and Barabas are probably both Chrysalis experiments, but Barabas less successful, and augmented by technology. Shinatama's death was symbolic because she had Konoko's brain engrams, and it marks the point at which Konoko goes rogue. And why does TCTF only then decide to kill Konoko, when she loses her SLD and engram-mate?
45 geyser Mukade Actually, Shinatama's death *was* TCTF's first attempt to kill Konoko, because she had that convenient Xiox device in her that they could use. Thinks there is enough info on Mukade to speculate with, esp. considering the case of the missing Hasegawa.
46 guido Project Focusing on Oni's missing pieces is a lost cause. We should think up new scenarios, designs, and ideas that we want to see, and then work out how to make them happen as part of the story.
47 guido Art [Posts drawings to illustrate what he means, but images and links are gone. Probably posted some of these.]
48 guido Art [Ibid.]
49 Script10000 -- --
50 TheTurnipKing Daodan, Griffin What does "Daodan" mean, anyway? And why did Griffin try to kill Konoko at that point when she hadn't done much yet?
51 geyser Daodan, Settings, Griffin Griffin had seen enough to know that the Daodan host was unpredictable and dangerous. "I can't allow her transformation to continue uncontrolled." Look up Daodan as "dao-dan". Like's guido's sketches but they seem to take place in a post-apocalypse shortly after Oni, whereas he, owldreamer and Pierre want a sequel set about 20 years later in a more controlled environment that is better suited for a melee action game.
52 TheTurnipKing Daodan, Griffin, Iron Demon But how does Griffin expect to stop Muro if he kills Konoko? And Konoko is mostly safe by this point and can still be monitored. Maybe Iron Demon was his backup plan? "Daodan" means "missile" in Chinese?
53 guido Pollution, Settings, Syndicate, Iron Demon, Society, Barabas, Themes, OtherChar Konoko makes it clear at the end of Oni that the atmospheric damage is not going to be reversed, so even after 20 years, order is not a sure thing. Thinks that geyser et al. are brushing that major issue under the rug when they wish for a stable setting for their game. Also, the Syndicate draws its strength from the underprivileged masses living outside the cities, therefore after the fall of the cities the struggle between authorities and Syndicate will only grow and chaos will increase. Finally, 20 years passing will disconnect the story's atmosphere from Oni 1. Points to Bungie's trend with other sequels -- in Myth and Halo, a single charismatic individual survives destruction to bring about a new order. Also, game doesn't have to be set in a wasteland; half-ruined cities, secret installations, even offices in new cities can be settings. Simply doesn't see how post-apocalyptic setting limits potential of an action game. Describes scenes wherein Mai runs from TCTF recovery squads and the Iron Demon battles its way through a ruined building out into the street under a toxic rain. Questions for a sequel: (A) Might there have been other Daodan research teams, or someone who picked up where Kerr left off?; (B) Who financed Griffin and who investigated his supposed corruption [referring to this console]; (C) Might anyone at the TCTF who knew Konoko want to join her?; (D) Did Muro have any rivals who survived him at the Syndicate? Perhaps now they are seeking Konoko, as a threat or as a guide; (E) Did Hasegawa meet "other relevant persons" during his captivity in the Syndicate?; (F) Mukade could communicate with his Daodan and with Mai mentally [actually, the game only says that Konoko can "feel" Mukade and that Mukade can "feel" his Chrysalis taking him over; no actual language use is implied], so perhaps he was a more advanced prototype of Hasegawa's; was this an attempt to attain the equilibrium or control that the TCTF wanted?; (G) Perhaps Barabas was only KOed by Konoko and is imprisoned in Oni 2, and sought out by Konoko for some answers.
54 TheTurnipKing Daodan Perhaps Daodan experiments from Hasegawa's lab escaped, and entered the food chain, spreading Daodan DNA?
55 TNT Daodan, Barabas, Mukade Konoko, Muro, Mukade and Barabas all have red shields that protect them, so perhaps this comes from the Daodan. Barabas' appears after his first defeat, so perhaps he's still evolving.
56 owldreamer -- --
57 TheTurnipKing Daodan, Barabas, Mukade Suggests that Hasegawa experimented on animals, which was the earliest source of Daodan DNA. There's also the "original" Daodan, not primed with DNA like the Chrysalises in Mai and Muro. "Barabas and Mukade were most likely based on Muro's Daodan data, though with further refinements" by Hasegawa or the Syndicate. "It seems likely that all of the Daodans 'in play' are based on Hasegawa's Chrysalises."
58 geyser Pollution, Settings, Syndicate, TCTF, WCG, Mai Contrary to guido's suggestion, it could be a fast process to establish a new order under martial law, especially when the people are busy burying their dead. Wonders about "clean air" posters in airport when air seems to be fine. WCG must have begun a PR campaign to convince people that they cared about environment, and strengthened the ACCs, after Jamie died. Hasegawa anticipated a cataclysm that never came until Konoko blew up the ACCs. Perhaps she missed a few. Anyway, mankind is resilient and inventive; we would find ways to make the air decent in at least confined areas, and in 20 years the city streets should be clean enough that only a mask is needed. Post-apocalypses are dull and difficult for gameplay. Also, let's not focus on just TCTF vs. Syndicate. What about the rest of the WCG's forces? Questions guido's "fact" about the Syndicate drawing strength from the people outside the cities. Can people even live outside the cities? Syndicate won't mess around with old-fashioned crime after Cataclysm; they'll make a grab for true power, having been prepared for the poison air scenario. They just need a charismatic and intelligent leader, more like Mukade than Muro. TCTF was never a match for Syndicate to begin with. How is WCG governed; dictatorship, council, democracy? There is a Directorate above Griffin. WCG allows free speech and protests and works to improve air, so they don't seem too bad. But they're wusses (demilitarized?). They have no ability to match the Syndicate, as far as we can see. TCTF just does enough on a low level to make the public think things are under control. Therefore, being prepared and well-armed, the Syndicate will steamroll the WCG after the Cataclysm. WCG will probably blame Mai for Cataclysm and she will become World Enemy #1. So Mai will have to run away. Also, her conscience will plague her for what she did and she may just have to "sleep it off" for 20 years.
59 Alloc Mai Why say that the Cataclysm is Mai's fault? She just read a console and then fought Muro.
60 guido Art [Another broken art link.]
61 geyser Mai, Settings, Hikari, Pollution, Project, Vehicles, Muro, Barabas, Mukade, Daodan Tells Alloc to play the end of Oni again. Asks Guido why Hikari would fight Mai. Doesn't want to set story in post-apocalypse. It will simply be mission after mission of bunkers and dead people and ruined city streets. Doesn't think that the TCTF chasing Mai through a city is compelling because she can out-run everyone, especially if they have to wear protective gear. The Iron Demon wouldn't do too well under acid rain, either. Does not see much potential for action when Mai can hide anywhere and outpace everybody, plus why would she be running around ruined cities, anyway? And who says cities have to be in ruins, for that matter? All that happened is that the ACCs, which are outside the cities [actually, the manual states that the ACCs are in the cities], blew up and then the air went bad. Ghost cities, yes; ruins, no. Suggests that Oni 2 have 30 missions and 100+ hours of gameplay. Doesn't think that 20 years would be too distant from Oni 1; we can revisit old settings. Maybe the only green areas are under domes now. And that 20 years of technological advancement cuts both ways: how can we introduce new weapons and Mai's fancy new bike if Oni 2 takes place right after Oni? But perhaps a couple opening levels could resume right after Oni 1, as Mai realizes what she's done, wandering around the cities. Then she falls into a "kind of painful trance/hibernation" for 20 years, and wakes up in a cave inside the Wilderness, unsure of who or what she is. She gradually notices that she's "different" and has to learn about the Daodan and her abilities again. In contrast to this player-friendly approach, picking up with after Cataclysm means that she is getting hunted by mobs of enemies and shot at, and the player might not know Oni's story and be totally overwhelmed. If anything, that scenario might make a good unlockable "prologue" after beating the game. Doubts that Muro or Barabas survived Oni. They may not have been killed by Mai, but the TCTF would have taken their bodies and finished them off, maybe autopsied them. Mukade, however, was KOed away from the reaches of the TCTF. Shoots down Guido's ideas of Mukade having "equilibrium" (the Daodan replaces you) and "telepathy" (they can sense each other, it's mutual between Daodan hosts). However, Mukade is probably a very advanced symbiote, maybe more so than Mai and Muro. Also negates Guido's suggestion of Griffin being "financed" or "corrupt"; the console says no such thing.
62 Alloc -- --
63 geyser Mai, Daodan, Mukade, Pollution Points out strange behaviors on Mai's part: (1) "Killing" Mukade instead of asking him questions (and who's to say that the disc he drops is the data she wanted? Maybe it's planted by Muro/Mukade), and (2) blowing up the ACCs instead of finding another way, like "re-re-purposing" them. Wasn't the situation under control, since no Cataclysm happened since Jamie's death? Muro only planned to gradually make the atmosphere more toxic to blackmail the world, and Mai made things way worse. Questions why there are "too many stations [to disarm] before Muro activates them" unless there are more we didn't see or they keep re-activating after she leaves. Mai also seems to think the ends justify the means in getting WCG to acknowledge the situation (which she just made 100x worse!), and is naive for thinking that everyone can simply be implanted with Chrysalises. Plans to further explain Mukade's link to Mai since no one is getting it.
64 TNT TCTF, Syndicate, Pollution Isn't sure that TCTF actually knew how strong Syndicate was; they didn't believe in Barabas' strength [per this console]. Manual remarks that the elite Red Strikers are 'only a rumor'. TCTF may still have known they were out-matched (perhaps that's what Iron Demon was for). Additionally, the Syndicate was able to create adult SLDs; they had the advantage of none of the legal restrictions that the police had. Also, who says they only had to fight the Syndicate? Reminds geyser that Hasegawa had seen that the pollution was indeed going to overwhelm the ACCs. Not sure that all ACCs were destroyed.
65 Gatkowski Mukade, Daodan, Mai, Pollution Mukade and Mai only sense one another because they're Daodan hosts, no further connection is needed to explain that. The reason why Mukade "fails" to get away from Mai is not conspiratorial in nature; his mission is to get away, but his "blood burns" at the thought of fighting Konoko, like a martial artist responding to another's strength with a desire to conquer that strength. Isn't sure that Syndicate knew as much about Konoko as geyser assumes. Who says Mukade would or could have told Konoko anything? Her fear probably got the better of her, as well. Doubts that ACC's reversal was reversible, Muro had no need to be able to reverse things. Thinks that Konoko is strong enough to take the hatred of society because she knows that her choice was necessary in order to save the majority of humanity.
66 Seventeen Seconds Themes Believes that story-writing process should focus less on details, and secondary characters like Mukade, and more on "archetypes and motivations and how characters fit together". Bend the continuity to make a more compelling story and you'll get more suspension of disbelief and emotional involvement from the player. Save the heavy details for the console text.
67 owldreamer Themes Agrees with 17sec.
68 geyser Mukade Doesn't consider Mukade to be secondary. Plans him to be main character besides Mai that carries over from Oni 1. Doesn't want people to have to suspend their belief because of a sloppy story, wants to build a careful, consistent world. So we need to work out all these details now, not later. At the same time, agrees that we should keep the opening of Oni 2 simple and only later fill in details. Does care about characters; has idea for Mai's best "friend" [referencing Mr. Big].
69 geyser TCTF, Syndicate, Mukade, Hasegawa, Griffin TCTF didn't believe in Barabas' abilities but they knew he was an "exceptional" Enforcer. The Syndicate *is* the only enemy of the TCTF's, they're the whole worldwide Network of criminals. Mai could feel Mukade not just because they are Daodan hosts, but because they share genetic material in common, even more than with her sibling, Muro [he's hinting that Mukade is Daddy]. TCTF is cowardly because they only fight Syndicate on small scale and "quit the game when it gets rough". Konoko was not a weapon to bring down the Syndicate, she was just a "toy" for Griffin.
70 geyser Mr. Big, Vehicles [Posts links to pages about the Serious Engine II.] Mr. Big is agile as well as strong and has lots of personality, as evidenced by his T-shirts. His weapons fire all kinds of different shots depending on ammo type picked up, and he drives a levitating high-speed Humvee.
71 TNT TCTF, Griffin TCTF wasn't cowardly, they just didn't want to face the Syndicate head-on if it was stronger. Griffin hadn't "given up", he'd sent strike team to get Shinatama; they arrive at the end of the level. Shouldn't make Griffin sound so evil.
72 guido Iron Demon, Society, Mai, WCG, Pollution Perhaps if the Iron Demon cannot withstand acid rain, that gives us an idea for level design with the ID. They seem to disagree on when Oni should take place; perhaps they should write two separate stories for Oni 2 in separate threads and then compare and merge the interesting points together. Backs up statement about "underprivileged masses" with quote from manual, translated from Italian. Asserts that another console about Griffin talked about him receiving money from an unknown source. "Confirms" that maybe one-third of ACCs still stand after Cataclysm, hence why he pictures some cities as untouched. Likes ideas of Mai's internal struggle and the WCG's "changing role".
73 guido -- --
74 geyser Griffin, Settings, Vehicles, Pollution, Mai Reiterates that TCTF is no match for Syndicate, therefore team sent after Shinatama was meant to be wiped out and fail their mission. Then refers to a second team as a death squad sent after Konoko. Griffin may not be evil, but he's a clichéd "just doing his job" kind of character. And English console doesn't say anything about Griffin receiving money, so maybe the Italian has a bad translation. Downplays canonicity of manual. Reason for wanting to make Mai amnesiac at start of Oni 2 was precisely this -- so that the player doesn't have to be intimately familiar with Oni's story; we can then introduce the facts to Mai and the player at will. Reason for time skip is to allow technological development and add spice to the action. Not sure that setting the game right after Cataclysm is going to be compatible with fast-paced action. Doesn't want a depressing and desolate setting to fight in. And maybe the Humvee doesn't levitate. Questions assertion that not all ACCs blew up.
75 geyser Society, Pollution, WCG Asks about "air dispensers" in Guido's art; would WCG even bother trying to help the "underprivileged masses"? Separate threads may not be needed.
76 TheTurnipKing Pollution, Daodan, Gameplay Responding to geyser's deconstruction of Konoko's ending monologue (post #63); wasn't the problem that we were dependent on the ACCs? We were slowly killing ourselves as a race, and the Chrysalis was forcing us to make a change that we weren't making on our own. Questions geyser saying that action was taken by WCG after Jamie's death. Are you suggesting Mukade is Hasegawa? Wants Oni 2 to basically be more Oni 1, but with better physics and more stylized graphics. Also, melee weapons and interactive environments. Save points before dangerous areas a must.
77 geyser Mai, WCG, Project It was very naive of Konoko to think that Chrysalises could save everyone, as mentioned before. Confirms his hints about Mukade. Something being done after Jamie's death is logical since it wasn't covered up Big Brother-style. Completely dismisses usefulness of manual except for line about WCG permitting Syndicate to exist. What sort of stylized graphics? Is working to put Oni's world into Serious Engine.
78 TheTurnipKing Project, WCG Points to Beyond Good & Evil and Killer 7 for stylized graphics. Just because Jamie's death was reported on doesn't mean anything was done about it. Story focuses more on their trespassing [and Jamie's murder!] than on what is going on in the Wilderness. Could be more subtle form of Big Brother control. Isn't a Serious Engine mod going to require everyone to own the game, or for geyser to license the engine?
79 geyser Project, WCG Main wish for graphics is just to give characters higher-res textures. Licensing Serious Engine is only needed if selling the game or needing advanced support. Links to larger "Murder or Mercy?" newspaper picture.
80 TheTurnipKing WCG Is familiar with picture. Doesn't think it proves/disproves anything. Focus is placed on Hasegawa, and authorities will investigate virus, which means little because they are overlooking the root cause of the problem.
81 geyser -- --
82 TheTurnipKing -- --
83 geyser WCG, Hasegawa Points out that the story gives gruesome details on what happened to Jamie [as evidence against a state cover-up]. It does make things more interesting for Hasegawa's motivation if he was branded a criminal; his research might have had a mix of "altruism and resentment". What about doodles on whiteboard in his Lab?
84 Snake007x WCG, Pollution, OtherChar, Mai Has own idea for Oni 2: takes place 20 years after Oni 1. "TCTF" [he means WCG] has diminished power, but still controls some regions. World is stylized but polluted. Man starting to use mainly solar and wind energy. "Humans in the future generally don't have increased strength because of the Chrysalis at this point because they've spent most of their lives adapting to the pollution, but there are a few exceptions to the rule." Story is set in nation called United Federation. Not a wealthy or well-organized nation. Former police take hostages in bank to force government to merge with "TCTF". Konoko sent in to take them out, but she saves them instead. New government that is established gives most of the control to a leftist named Bismarck. He puts Konoko in charge of the Federal Security Force, but it soon becomes clear that he has been conspiring to become a dictator. He arms rebels so that they can be used as a premise for increasing his own power. Konoko tries to take him down and loses the fight against his guards, retreating. She needs to decide if she should team up with the "TCTF" or find another way.
85 Nyctasia OtherChar Points out that TCTF is just the police force. Why "Bismarck"? [I'm guessing he is feeling defensive of the famous Prussian ruler.] Can't understand remarks about Marxist dictatorships. And what happened to the Syndicate?
86 Snake007x WCG Meant WCG, not TCTF. "Marxist dictator" would be someone like Castro. Did intentionally use Bismarck's name because he was the father of Realpolitik. Didn't use Syndicate because he wanted to think up new enemy for Konoko, but maybe they are assisting the rebels. But Konoko did kill most of them.
87 geyser Syndicate, OtherChar Isn't sure that we should use "patented" [famous historical] names for characters. Isn't fond of some of the political message. Syndicate won't just go away, they're a major military force that was prepared for the poisoning of the air.
88 Snake007x -- --
89 Nyctasia Mai, WCG, Syndicate, Griffin Thinks that gov't would have to find a scapegoat for the pollution and would pick Konoko. Not sure that future situation will be about forceful oppression, maybe more propaganda. Only part of Syndicate was destroyed by Konoko, plus they must have had ties to world powers. Also suggests that Griffin shows up to help Konoko partly for his own reasons, or perhaps to finish off Muro if Konoko fails.
90 Nyctasia OtherChar Otto von Bismarck ruled by 'brute wits, not brute strength', so Bismarck is not really a fitting name for Snake's character.
91 Snake007x OtherChar Acknowledges that Bismarck used brains, but that was only part of his inspiration; was also thinking of Castro. We need some physical conflict, or story would be pretty boring.
92 geyser Hasegawa Yes, too much politics is boring, so why emphasize it so much in the story? And what about Hasegawa's whiteboard?
93 TNT Syndicate, TCTF Can't recall whiteboard clearly. Disagrees that Syndicate troops are clearly superior to TCTF, manual says they have some advantages. Agrees that SLD recovery team was probably meant to fail. Geyser shouldn't ignore manual, it's a part of the game.
94 geyser Project The most important part of the game is the game itself.
95 TNT Project Manual is still part of the complete picture.
96 ZDLO Project "Many fans want to see real Oni 2" [I guess he means an Oni 2 from T2].
97 geyser Project, Mai Oni 2 is only going to come from the fans in this thread. Disagrees with Gatkowski (post #65) that Konoko could take the world's hatred. She was thrown into the situation and the public eye too quickly.
98 ZDLO -- --
99 Nyctasia Project geyser is focused too much on eyecandy [he is referring to geyser's signature, which was "Life is a game. The plot is lousy, the gameplay sucks, but the *graphics* are just *awesome*!!!"]. Everyone is talking about plot [yes, he just contradicted himself...], but not about fixing what was wrong with Oni 1. Would rather read a story about Oni 2 than play it, if it's going to play just like Oni 1.
100 geyser Project Denies sig having anything to do with his plans for Oni 2. States that Oni 2 should have "perfect" melee combat, "drop-dead" physics, and a "killer" plot, or it's not worth doing. Hints that Croteam [makers of Serious Sam] might find the challenge interesting.
101 Nyctasia Muro, Barabas, Mukade Wonders if defeating an opponent means killing them or KOing them. Perhaps Muro is still alive somewhere in captivity alongside Barabas, but Mukade is clearly killed by Konoko, although it seems senseless.
102 geyser Mukade, Barabas, Muro, Project Thinks it's the other way around: Konoko seemed to break Mukade's neck, and then left without making sure he was dead. Whereas when she beat Barabas and Muro, she could have stuck around and made sure they were dead. Thinks it likely that Mukade would survive his injury and come back better than ever. Especially Muro would not be allowed by Griffin to live, or if he is, he would be frozen. Muro as a returning villain would be boring anyway. Barabas could be a challenging fight if his abilities have advanced. Mukade would be even tougher. Thinks that Mukade was acting according to a plan in the game, except perhaps for getting his neck broken. Asks if others agree that Mukade was the toughest boss. Recommends everyone try Lugaru, being an interesting proof of concept for combat. Reiterates that the planning for Oni 2 has to start in this thread, whether it becomes a fan-made game or is taken over by "someone big".
103 Snake007x Project Points out that, although not all gamers appreciate a political storyline, the Metal Gear games have certainly done well.
104 Nyctasia OtherChar, Mukade Thinks that Furies are the toughest non-bosses and speculates that there was going to be a Fury boss in the game. Mukade is a level above the other ninjas because of his higher health and his Devil Stars. But Muro is hardest because his moves do the most damage. Thinks that Mukade is dead and that he simply overestimated his abilities, like Barabas; that's why he only took one brown ninja with him at the end. If Konoko can "sense" Mukade, then how did he hide his survival from her? Tells Snake that there was another Bismarck that was all about brute power.
105 geyser Mukade Mukade could have been luring Konoko in, that's why he didn't give himself more bodyguards. Perhaps Konoko doesn't sense him because he goes into a sort of coma after being injured. Or perhaps he's advanced enough that he can choose to hide himself psychically from Konoko. The "senselessness" of Konoko trying to kill him is partly his own fault for working her into a killing frenzy. So if they meet again, he won't resent her for it. Opines that "cat and mouse" refers to Konoko as the mouse, not the cat. Wonders if Nyctasia was referring to the battleship Bismarck.
106 geyser Art [Posts drawing of Mr. Big and Mai].
107 geyser Art, Project [Posts drawing of Syndicate Guard gunner.] [Links to ssg's collection of pre-beta screenshots and the two trailers.] Why did Konoko used to look more mechanical (eyes, skin plugs...)? Was she a cyborg like Motoko originally, and the Daodan stuff was added later? "Motoko" certainly sounds like "Konoko". And Konoko means "kitty" [...no, it doesn't].
108 TNT Project Why do many of the pre-beta shots look nicer? Glad that blood is gone, it looked awful.
109 geyser Mr. Big, Mai, OtherChar At beginning of Oni 2, a rebellion is brewing. Mr. Big is one of the rebels. He encounters Mai and takes her along on some missions in Vansam City. Enemies are Syndicate troops. Mai is starting to have troubling flashbacks. Mr. Big eventually realizes who she is and helps her recover her memories. Her abilities come back gradually as she gains more awareness of them and she recovers from her "coma". Rebels then have to decide whether to work with her or hold her responsible for the cataclysm. This will cause a schism in the rebellion, with some trying to hurt her or betray her. Perhaps Mai acquires a leadership role herself. Then she meets the world leader and is surprised to find that he knows her.
110 ssg Project Quotes Alex Okita from Harry's Bungie West interviews explaining what the deal was with Konoko's eyes in the '99 trailer.
111 geyser Project So Konoko's eyes were like the SLDs' then.
112 Gatkowski Project Doesn't "kono-ko" mean "this child", referring to an orphaned Mai?
113 geyser Project, Vehicles, Art "Konoko" means "cutie" or "sweet thing", applied to kids, pets, etc. [Posts drawing of mechanical combat frame for Mai that could be used to fight Iron Demon.]
114 AnonAnom Mukade Maybe Mukade is an SLD based off Shinatama's engrams, copied by Muro after her abduction. If Mukade was Hasegawa, why would he work for his own son, unless he were secretly organizing things behind Muro's back? And in geyser's theory, Mukade should be more advanced of a symbiote than his children, unless he had it implanted after them, or he hasn't seen much combat due to sneaking around as a ninja.
115 typhen -- --
116 geyser Settings, Pollution, Griffin, OtherChar, Mai Since "chenille" means butterfly, is tempted to name sequel Oni 2: Butterfly Effect. Going forward 20 years will allow technology to improve, new architecture to develop, and the air to become breathable, at least under domes. A new order will be established, and Griffin will be gone either way (regardless of Oni's ending), and his children will be grown up. Reiterates ideas about Mai waking up in cave with no memories. Then describes her coming back to the cave looking for a message from herself. She runs into Syndicate forces who are swarming the area looking for her, and she has to escape the cave and Wilderness and get back to Mr. Big.
117 typhen Project Oni 2 won't be a fast project for a few fans to make, and concepts like "perfect clipping" and "dynamically-generated skeletal animation" aren't feasible.
118 geyser Project Thinks "skeletal animation" is perfectly feasible [he missed the "dynamic" part of typhen's statement]. No game needs 100% perfect clipping, 80% or 90% will do. Points to Pierre as example of what just one person can do. An improved Oni (adding the ID, MP, new maps) could be done in "not much more than a year". But sure, an Oni 2 will take longer. Will continue to write and plan the game. Will buy Serious Sam II when it comes out to investigate the engine; thinks it will seriously speed up development time. "Once the plot and models and art are up and going, I'd definitely get someone 'Big' to carry on the project." A studio like CroTeam should be interested in making an Oni 2 if the fans create a compelling sort of rough version of how it would look.
119 typhen Society, Pollution, Syndicate, Mukade, Gameplay, Mai What if, 20 years after Oni, most humans live in cities with repaired atmo. processors, but some have Chrysalises and live outside the cities in their own settlements. Normal humans can venture outside in suits for a limited time, which are manufactured and controlled by the TCTF. Syndicate troops live inside and outside the cities, but they have the most power outside. The Chrysalises came from the Syndicate, but they are inferior to Konoko's. Mukade is running the Syndicate. Konoko can use her adaptive abilities to survive being thrown into pits of acid (which she can throw enemies into) and swim underwater for long periods of time, allowing stealthy approaches to situations. Imagines Konoko breaking into TCTF HQ and speaking to new commander, then escaping TCTF soldiers into the Wilderness, where the Syndicate attacks her. Likes idea of Konoko being underdog; she can be outnumbered, but not out-run. She can even jump-kick pilots chasing her in helicopters. Hopes that she would still be young in appearance, and also that she's not transformed into something ugly.
120 geyser Mukade, Barabas, Shinatama, Muro, Pollution, Society, Syndicate, Mai, Gameplay, Daodan Thinks that AnonAnom's ideas are interesting, but still prefers Mukade=Dad hypothesis for the more interesting story it yields. Not sure that you can extract an SLD's engrams like that anyway, certainly not that quickly. And you can't implant a Daodan into an SLD [this is not stated anywhere explicitly, however SLDs are inorganic, so this is probably true]. But maybe Barabas was a cyborg who was given a Daodan; the Daodan only modified his organic parts, thus explaining his incomplete transformation. Shinatama can appear elsewhere in Oni 2 (likes Owldreamer's ideas for her/Hikari). Mukade could be Hasegawa and still work for Muro, as he has plenty of leeway in carrying out his missions. He might prefer to observe from the shadows while Muro does his dictator thing, plus it lets him get close to Mai. And he might indeed have plans which are unknown to Muro. Agrees with typhen that air could be breathable again in 20 years, esp. with Mukade being a scientist and having "ET-enhanced intelligence". Would not call TCTF the "TCTF" anymore; "if Mai's amnesiac, you don't want too many bells to ring at once." And why would Mai go to the police HQ? They'd be more likely to take her in when she shows up on the streets. You then have to escape custody. Dislikes idea of Chrysalis folk; too many difficult implications, and besides, why would they ally with Mai? And the Syndicate should definitely be the world power since they were the world's only army and they were ready for the Cataclysm. Doesn't see Syndicate getting scattered or putting Chrysalises in everyone, only a trusted few close to Mukade. Mai would definitely be young and human-looking, as the Chrysalis will aim for immortality and also allowing the host to fit in with its kin and not be destroyed. Does want her to be weakened so player can learn her abilities gradually as she recovers them. The "hardsuits" that let you play in "Godzilla" mode will use the same combat system so you already know how to control it. Like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly, Mai's diet could change radically, allowing her to go without much food. Maybe she could have a "teleport gauge" that allows her to automatically escape instant-death situations like the ones in Rooftops if she has enough charge built up. Prefers his "shattered rebellion" idea to a simple alternation between Wilderness and City; allows for more variety in situations, more character motivations, and more interesting story developments. Agrees that Mai should be able to take out helicopters by jumping, even vaulting from one to another in order to climb, or throwing objects at them like expended weapons. Has more plans for how weapons are used in melee combat....
121 typhen Gameplay, Daodan Acknowledges that he wasn't thinking of plot implications when it comes to his ideas. His main interest is gameplay; remove the Chrysalis folk if they aren't going to lead to some fun gameplay concepts. Thinks that geyser's idea of throwing things like vehicles at aerial enemies is better than jumping super-high. How would you control the jump, esp. when indoors or leaping from roof to roof? Maybe Konoko should breathe fire. Also, wonders what happens when a Daodan symbiote gets pregnant.
122 geyser Project, Daodan, Gameplay Doesn't want to make too many outdoor areas, instead focusing on making the Cave map perfect and using it twice. Rejects the idea of "Chrysalis to the people". High-jumping would be directed by a targeting system. You'd have a gauge for "high jumping, fast running, strong punching, teleporting, throwing heavy stuff, KAMEHAMEHAing balls of fire etc." Falling off a roof can be solved with either auto-teleporting (also on a gauge) or else allowing the player to continue through the level on the ground. Dislikes idea of a holstered gun disappearing as in Oni 1. They could have anti-gravity devices on them so that they float up in the air above Konoko until she grabs them again. Or perhaps she can throw them very high up, do some melee fighting, then grab the gun as it falls (the game can show where the gun is going to land). Large guns probably shouldn't be holsterable at all; you either carry them and get slowed down, or drop them and regain your agility. [Links to Serious Sam 2 footage about which he is very excited.] Loves open spaces in SSII and the futuristic cities. Doesn't want to consider having Mai get pregnant, as that requires working in a romantic angle. Doubts that a fully-integrated symbiote would even reproduce in a normal human way. Perhaps they simply "bud" when it's time to reproduce. Fighting a bunch of budded Mukade clones might be interesting, but it's not something he's keen on.
123 ssg Project Serious Sam is an FPS, so can we make the engine work in third-person?
124 geyser Project The engine allows switching between views. The only question is whether to recreate the JelloCam or use a more traditional player-controlled camera. Either way, you can still "cheat" by looking through/around things. The Serious Engine allows lots of variety in total conversions, such as third-person bike-riding and swordplay, just using the modding tools provided, even without an engine license.
125 geyser Project On subject of feasibility, the biggest obstacle is AI. Melee AI, and getting the whole combat system together in a new engine. Until the fans can demonstrate that this will work, and over a network, we can't expect a big studio to take on the project.
126 geyser Art [Posts pics from Syndicate Wars' CG intro as model for Oni 2's real-time look.]
127 Seraf Ethifeo Daodan, Mukade What if ETs governing the Daodan are immaterial, and so they have to convert humans to serve as ambassadors? But the issue is that the mutated Daodan hosts won't look very human, so Mukade would need to rule from the shadows.
128 geyser Mukade, Daodan Mukade probably is still mostly human-looking, as he is human-sized in Oni. Perhaps his near-death experience caused him to mutate, but he can probably still wear a mask while in public. But what do these "oni" want with us? Are they benevolent, and are evolving us in order to allow us to avoid a catastrophe to humanity that they know is coming, or are they using us for their own ends? Are they just indifferent to us?
129 Seraf Ethifeo Daodan Perhaps there's a threat they want to avoid, but since it's physical, they need our help.
130 ZDLO -- --
131 ZDLO -- --
132 ZDLO -- --
133 geyser -- --
134 TNT Themes Quotes a post of geyser's [from another thread] about not wanting to tell an Oni 2 story that is relentlessly dark because it's numbing for the player. Disagrees, a dark story can still have strong emotion. Although Oni 1 didn't really use any visual language to augment its story except perhaps in Dream Lab, where the feeling is dismal and enclosed because of the space Konoko is in while listening to her father's account.
135 geyser Themes Is not against darkness in Oni 2, just unrelenting darkness. Agrees that darkness isn't really used for story purposes in Oni, although perhaps for corner-cutting purposes on a technical level. Oni is fairly glum overall, but was more colorful in pre-beta.
136 TNT Themes Agrees that we don't want a story that just keeps getting darker. There's enough misery in real life.
137 geyser Themes Yes, but sometimes over-the-top misery in fiction is a welcome distraction from realistic miseries. Isn't that what noir is about?
138 TNT Themes Thought geyser didn't want a dark story where it's just a question of who dies next and gives Mai a reason to kill more bad guys. Noir genre can also involve detective work. But you don't need to show everything to the viewer. Their imagination can fill in some things, although the effectiveness of the subtlety varies with one's personality.
139 geyser Themes Wasn't advocating darkness in Oni 2 per se. However, Oni's world "allows for a multifaceted plot: from the most trivial to the most complex, there's cops and criminals (or government and rebellion), friendship and betrayal, mercy and vengeance, insanity and kinslaying, questionable humanity (androids, cyborgs, clones, symbiotes), non-human intelligence, grand design... It's quite rich indeed, so if there's darkness, it won't be trivial who-dies-next darkness. Neither will the player really know what kind of plot twists to expect. Oni (2) is not confined to a genre (such as "noir" for Max Payne), it's rather complex science-fiction (maybe more complex than Ghost in the Shell, even), and I think it's a very good thing." Also, we should have some nightmare sequences in Oni 2.
140 TNT Themes Doubts we can create the kind of depth that GitS has, but agrees otherwise.
141 geyser Mukade, Hasegawa Recapitulates his theory on Mukade: the attack on TCTF HQ was Muro's doing, but the Regional State operation was Mukade's. He planned the confrontation with Mai, and he dropped a disc with only the information he wanted her to have. Mukade is Mai's dad. He survived their fight.
142 guido Mukade Agrees with almost all of geyser's ideas concerning Mukade. "I think he could assume a number of very different (maybe conflicting) roles, even in a single storyline. I also think that his relationship with Konoko should be kept ambiguous in any case." [Posts picture but link is broken. I think it was an earlier version of THIS.]
143 geyser Mukade, Vehicles Doesn't think Mukade can be that ambiguous. And how can Mai sit next to him smiling like they didn't fight to the death earlier? But the idea of multiple Mukades is interesting, whether images or clones, making him more enigmatic. Doesn't like giant Akira-style bikes. Points out various errors in the drawing's perspective, concept, etc.
144 TNT Mukade Doesn't think a ninja would ride a giant motorcycle around.
145 geyser Mukade, Vehicles Yes, Mukade should have a quieter method of transportation, maybe something more like Spiderman's web slinger, or a grappling hook gun. He ought to be able to invent a hover vehicle.
146 Your_Mom Mukade Why didn't Mukade teleport away from Konoko instead of letting her catch him? Points out that we don't know Hasegawa's first name. Mai and Muro both begin with an 'M'....
147 geyser Mukade Yes, that's what he's getting at. But if the relationship is supposed to be ambiguous, it's not in Guido's pic....
148 TNT Mukade Ending the story without disambiguating Mukade would be rather unsatisfying for the player. Maybe Mukade *wanted* to fight Mai.
149 geyser Mukade Yes, that's what he's getting at! It's all too convenient that Mukade doesn't jump out the window until Mai has finally gotten through the building's ninjas and made her way up there, and that Konoko manages to catch up to him on the roof only once he's alone.
150 Guido Art Apologizes for rough work on drawing, here is better version. [Link is broken.]