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Review criticisms: Difference between revisions

adding some responses
(adding some responses)
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Before anyone speaks up in defense of the way things are, let me just throw one word out there: Casey. Someone we were already kinda considering adding (back) into the story. Perhaps a side story with him might allow us to flesh out Konoko's human side a little more. It's a tricky thing to contemplate, but I don't think that it shouldn't be brought up just because it's tricky. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
Before anyone speaks up in defense of the way things are, let me just throw one word out there: Casey. Someone we were already kinda considering adding (back) into the story. Perhaps a side story with him might allow us to flesh out Konoko's human side a little more. It's a tricky thing to contemplate, but I don't think that it shouldn't be brought up just because it's tricky. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:I can't comment on this much. Adding in BGI without screwing up the story is tricky enough as it is. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
:I can't comment on this much. Adding in BGI without screwing up the story is tricky enough as it is. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::This is the kind of thing that is very long-term (not something we'd aim to get into the next release of the AE, or even the one after that, etc.). As such, we need to allow this concept time to gel in our minds, and see if it's possible, or even a good idea. I think it will help to have a space to brainstorm in when we have a few minutes here and there. I recommend taking over [[AE_talk:Casey]] for that purpose. Anyone who has any thoughts on this idea that are more than a few words may want to just put them on that page so we can have plenty of room to discuss it. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)


==Gameplay==
==Gameplay==
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Of course, this feature is only as "underused" as the player underuses it, but the point I took away from this was that it is rarely useful/smart to use stealth. It's too easy to be spotted with the way the enemy walks and turns around from time to time, and the benefit seems pretty negligible to taking someone out stealthily, so I think that's why we don't take the time to sneak around more often. It seems to me that fixing this might require moving some obstacles around in levels, and editing patrol paths, and possibly finding some way to make stealth a rewarding approach that can be used in place of charging in every time. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
Of course, this feature is only as "underused" as the player underuses it, but the point I took away from this was that it is rarely useful/smart to use stealth. It's too easy to be spotted with the way the enemy walks and turns around from time to time, and the benefit seems pretty negligible to taking someone out stealthily, so I think that's why we don't take the time to sneak around more often. It seems to me that fixing this might require moving some obstacles around in levels, and editing patrol paths, and possibly finding some way to make stealth a rewarding approach that can be used in place of charging in every time. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:Agreed. One thing at a time though, I can't do all the scripting here. -_- [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
:Agreed. One thing at a time though, I can't do all the scripting here. -_- [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::Well, this, like Casey, might be a very long-term goal. We could put it way down on our list of priorities. For now, I'm just fishing for ideas, e.g., How can we make stealth rewarding to the player? One idea is to make stealth kills/KOs not alert any nearby AI, so there's a clear advantage to doing things that way when possible. I might have some more details to add later, possibly to a new page where this can be discussed in more depth. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)




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Another reviewer coins a term for this: "samey". He laments that a game with so much action could feel repetitive. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
Another reviewer coins a term for this: "samey". He laments that a game with so much action could feel repetitive. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:I'd like some more things like with Warehouse (have to save an AI who can open the doors, etc...if your AI dies, you are SOL and lose...like in Loser's mod) [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
:I'd like some more things like with Warehouse (have to save an AI who can open the doors, etc...if your AI dies, you are SOL and lose...like in Loser's mod) [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::Never got to play that (I assume it's still PC-only???). But it's true that "protect" missions are usually thrown into a game to vary the action a bit. Frankly, I've never been a big fan of protect missions, but that's usually because they're so hard. If we adjust the difficulty juuuust right, this might work out well. Although I'm not sure Warehouse is the best place to use this idea; Konoko's got to go in on her own because it's a sensitive, covert mission. But still, having an ally in some level who can do something you can't is one good idea for offering more variety. Let's keep brainstorming for more other ways to make things less "samey". I suggest we think about the airport level -- I agree with the reviewer on its being more intense. ''Why'' is it more intense? What makes it better than some other levels? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)


{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|There’s some promise shown early on with disabling the Deadly Brain even though it’s a modified jumping puzzle but it’s not found anywhere else. More innovation would have been welcomed.}}
{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|There’s some promise shown early on with disabling the Deadly Brain even though it’s a modified jumping puzzle but it’s not found anywhere else. More innovation would have been welcomed.}}


Well, the Deadly Brain "puzzle" <u>is</u> found one more time... but I don't think that invalidates the point he/she is making. --
Well, the Deadly Brain "puzzle" <u>is</u> found one more time... but I don't think that invalidates the point he/she is making. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:I don't like gimmicky things like this, but to each his own. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
:I don't like gimmicky things like this, but to each his own. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::For one thing, I am not even sure I consider the Deadly Brain a jumping puzzle (does anyone actually jump while fighting the one in Ch. 2? I sure don't.). But maybe it would make sense to require more agility from the player than simply timing their runs from console to console.
::But Gumby, you brought up another point -- I think you're saying that you aren't crazy about boss fights where there's some gimmick to beating them, right? Arguably, that might not be the direction we want to take Oni in. Currently, none of the boss fights are particularly gimmick-based (Mutant Muro is close, but doesn't really count IMO). Then again, that kind of boss fight can make things more interesting and force the player to use their wits more. What do you other guys feel on the matter? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)


[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)




{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|[...] the building structures may be nice, but aside from a few of your standard "jump" obstacles there is very little to actually interact with.}}


{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|[...] the building structures may be nice, but aside from a few of your standard "jump" obstacles there is very little to actually interact with.}}
<nowiki>*</nowiki>cough* *cough* Movable chairs would be a nice start. Remind me again, someone, why we haven't been able to do that? Is it bad collision detection? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)






{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|Despite the wonderfully crafted training tutorial stage for players to get accustomed to the complex controls, the minute the actual in-game mission started, I still found myself ill-prepared and dying and restarting quite frequently.}}
{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|Despite the wonderfully crafted training tutorial stage for players to get accustomed to the complex controls, the minute the actual in-game mission started, I still found myself ill-prepared and dying and restarting quite frequently.}}




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There's nothing wrong with a learning curve, of course. But wouldn't we all, as newbies, have welcomed a return to the training level, to practice moves that you had newly obtained? This is more practical, story-wise, if the room is indeed in virtual space, as there is some indication. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
There's nothing wrong with a learning curve, of course. But wouldn't we all, as newbies, have welcomed a return to the training level, to practice moves that you had newly obtained? This is more practical, story-wise, if the room is indeed in virtual space, as there is some indication. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:There are a few spots in the game where there is an empty level slot...but remember there is a point in the game where you can't go back to the nice training room. :)
:There are a few spots in the game where there is an empty level slot...but remember there is a point in the game where you can't go back to the nice training room. :)
::Yes, you're quite right. Even if the room is virtual, if it relies on the TCTF computers or on Shinatama in some way, it won't be accessible after Chapter 6. That's... pretty early on, considering a number of moves are yet to be unlocked at that point. If, however, Konoko can access this room on her own (how?) she can use it between any levels we want. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)




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This statement actually feels overly generous to me. <u>Are</u> there really multiple paths to each goal? Certainly in some places, but I don't feel that Oni is consistent in this; surely with such large levels, we can find some way to make things a bit more non-linear? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
This statement actually feels overly generous to me. <u>Are</u> there really multiple paths to each goal? Certainly in some places, but I don't feel that Oni is consistent in this; surely with such large levels, we can find some way to make things a bit more non-linear? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:More scripting :( [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
:More scripting :( [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::I'm not so sure about that, Gumby. Remember geyser's efforts to reveal hidden doors in the Warehouse? Allowing alternate paths in a level is sometimes all that's needed to make the game non-linear. Of course, that might require some touch-up of the scripting to prevent the level from being broken by the player following a newly-made path, but that shouldn't involve major effort. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)




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I know we have third-party tools for doing this, and the startup dialog box (that's currently broken for both OS X and Windows), but doesn't it seem like there should be some way to make this part of the interface? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
I know we have third-party tools for doing this, and the startup dialog box (that's currently broken for both OS X and Windows), but doesn't it seem like there should be some way to make this part of the interface? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:No matter what geyser says, I cannot find any key binding dialog box. However, someone (me? :<) could write up a utility called up at start (either through a .bat or the Daodan) to edit the keys. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
:No matter what geyser says, I cannot find any key binding dialog box. However, someone (me? :<) could write up a utility called up at start (either through a .bat or the Daodan) to edit the keys. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::Is it feasible to hack the WMDDs or whatever, to add a new screen where keys are set? The Daodan can monitor what's actually done on that screen, so as to write the appropriate changes to key_config.txt (this leaves the Mac out, of course :-( ). That way we could present an actual Oni-like, in-game screen for changing these settings. You already added the Options button to the mid-game Main Menu, so that's what made me wonder if this was possible. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)




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It seems that since the level scripting is based around the current, fixed savepoints, we can't just give the player the ability to save anytime, anywhere. We ''can'' add more savepoints, though, which is sort of on the long-term To-Do list already. Any other ideas on this subject? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
It seems that since the level scripting is based around the current, fixed savepoints, we can't just give the player the ability to save anytime, anywhere. We ''can'' add more savepoints, though, which is sort of on the long-term To-Do list already. Any other ideas on this subject? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:My view is that if you can't beat an SP, change your strategy. :) Indeed, we can't change the SP system. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
:My view is that if you can't beat an SP, change your strategy. :) Indeed, we can't change the SP system. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::Maybe only a couple additional SPs are needed. I vote for another one in Ch. 3, for instance. What do others feel on the subject? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)




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I know we are going to turn off Konoko's auto-dash hack in future AE releases, right? I do feel that's a good idea, but it will also reintroduce the above problem. So, what about a "dash" key? Is that possible? A separate key from the normal run key, or else using a modifier in conjunction with that key? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
I know we are going to turn off Konoko's auto-dash hack in future AE releases, right? I do feel that's a good idea, but it will also reintroduce the above problem. So, what about a "dash" key? Is that possible? A separate key from the normal run key, or else using a modifier in conjunction with that key? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:For PC - maybe (though I don't like the idea), for Mac - doubt it, unless you can do something like the Daodan DLL.
:For PC - maybe (though I don't like the idea), for Mac - doubt it, unless you can do something like the Daodan DLL. --[[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::What don't you like about it? Saying that an idea is a bad one *is* a valid response to any of these points, after all, but I want to know why you feel that way. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)
 




{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|The game itself exhibits many “clipping” problems in which characters can pass through walls, hang off ledges and pass through solid objects in such a way that one is jarringly reminded that you are playing a computer game. It is very common to enter a room, look back and find the foot or head of your just-vanquished foe sticking through the wall or protruding through the closed door; in several places in the game you can even fight an opponent through the closed door they are guarding, while being totally immune to gunfire.}}
{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|The game itself exhibits many “clipping” problems in which characters can pass through walls, hang off ledges and pass through solid objects in such a way that one is jarringly reminded that you are playing a computer game. It is very common to enter a room, look back and find the foot or head of your just-vanquished foe sticking through the wall or protruding through the closed door; in several places in the game you can even fight an opponent through the closed door they are guarding, while being totally immune to gunfire.}}
I know Loser already has done some experimentation with making characters actually *hit* walls, which should prevent most, if not all, of the "clipping" problems (I consider this to be a collision problem, not a clipping problem, but I guess it depends how you define "clipping"). I guess I just need to know what Loser's current feelings are on what we can actually do for this problem. Is the system he worked on going to be practical? I know he had concerns about it being too hard on the engine. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)




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This is sure to be a controversial point, as I think most of us are fine with the JelloCam, but I've put it here anyway for discussion, not because I necessarily agree with it. I need to go back and play Rune and FAKK<sup>2</sup> before I form an opinion, myself (can't remember how the cameras worked). --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
This is sure to be a controversial point, as I think most of us are fine with the JelloCam, but I've put it here anyway for discussion, not because I necessarily agree with it. I need to go back and play Rune and FAKK<sup>2</sup> before I form an opinion, myself (can't remember how the cameras worked). --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
:Can't comment. Never played em. Would be complicated to change the cam though.
:Can't comment. Never played em. Would be complicated to change the cam though. --[[User:Gumby|Gumby]]
::I included this even though I can only see it being changed if we had the source. I still think it might be useful to evaluate this point, though, even if we currently can't do anything about it. I can't say whether I even ''want'' to do anything about it until I have revisited those games, though. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)




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{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|[...] the Mercury Bow, a scopeless pseudo-sniper rifle}}
{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|[...] the Mercury Bow, a scopeless pseudo-sniper rifle}}


"Scopeless", eh? Well, now, I believe we might be able to do something about that ;-) --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
"Scopeless", eh? Well, now, I believe we might be able to do something about that ;-) --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 04:36, 9 December 2008 (CET)
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{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|The levels are very large at times too, but not always terribly well designed, with some rather shoddy texture work in areas. Japanese minimalism may be popular, but untextured areas don't really achieve this!}}
{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|The levels are very large at times too, but not always terribly well designed, with some rather shoddy texture work in areas. Japanese minimalism may be popular, but untextured areas don't really achieve this!}}
Obviously there are no truly untextured areas in the game. Let's face it, actual, real-life warehouses look boring too, that's not the fault of Oni's texture artists. I just want to say that I think one factor that led a lot of reviewers to complain about texturing was actually the poor lighting system Oni uses. I think that the lack of real depth in some areas of the levels probably subliminally made them feel like the walls were too bare, when really they just weren't properly lit. I've pointed the terrible lighting out in the past, such as in [http://iritscen.oni2.net/images/Oni-BadShadows1.jpg these] [http://iritscen.oni2.net/images/Oni-BadShadows4.jpg two] pictures. Of course, fixing this would require source. I still want to get you guys' thoughts on the matter. --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)






{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|[...] a general emptiness of detail which would leave even a Bauhaus architect screaming for a potted plant or a water cooler to break up the monotony.}}
{{pullquote|color=red|inset=5%|[...] a general emptiness of detail which would leave even a Bauhaus architect screaming for a potted plant or a water cooler to break up the monotony.}}
My feeling is that modern computers should be able to handle our adding some interior decoration to some levels. But -- let's just say we added a water cooler for the sake of discussion -- how would Oni handle collision with it? Is this going to be a problem? --[[User:Iritscen|iritscen]] 16:46, 9 December 2008 (CET)