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Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions
Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events (view source)
Revision as of 23:50, 10 June 2020
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:::::::If it were up to me, I wouldn't keep much of those "[https://3dbrute.com/homunculus-loxodontus/ Waiters]" or their human/Daodan proxies, except for the notion that the Phase is tied to "Gaia", i.e., that you can't do phase tech in outer space. It would explain why Oni's sci-fi-powered civilization isn't actively colonizing Mars or the Moon, and it would keep the plot "Earth-centered" in a [[wp:Ring Around the Sun (novel)|Ring Around the Sun]] kind of way. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:06, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::If it were up to me, I wouldn't keep much of those "[https://3dbrute.com/homunculus-loxodontus/ Waiters]" or their human/Daodan proxies, except for the notion that the Phase is tied to "Gaia", i.e., that you can't do phase tech in outer space. It would explain why Oni's sci-fi-powered civilization isn't actively colonizing Mars or the Moon, and it would keep the plot "Earth-centered" in a [[wp:Ring Around the Sun (novel)|Ring Around the Sun]] kind of way. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:06, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::To me, it would be much more surprising if the world of Oni ''was'' doing anything advanced in space. Where do you think ''we'll'' be in 12 years? Even colonizing the moon? Doubtful (sadly). Oni's world doesn't feel a lot more advanced than ours except for their phase tech, and there's nothing in the canonical depiction of that technology which would aid in settling another world. I would expect Oni's world to be ''less'' advanced in matters of space than ours, seeing as they have some very time-consuming and expensive issues to deal with here on Earth. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::To me, it would be much more surprising if the world of Oni ''was'' doing anything advanced in space. Where do you think ''we'll'' be in 12 years? Even colonizing the moon? Doubtful (sadly). Oni's world doesn't feel a lot more advanced than ours except for their phase tech, and there's nothing in the canonical depiction of that technology which would aid in settling another world. I would expect Oni's world to be ''less'' advanced in matters of space than ours, seeing as they have some very time-consuming and expensive issues to deal with here on Earth. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::Colonizing the Moon or Mars would make sense in Oni's world, precisely because of the overwhelming issues (if the biosphere is lost, then there isn't anywhere else to go but space -- Ergo-Proxy-style, perhaps, or to Mars if the population is sufficiently depleted), but indeed we don't see much of a drive towards space conquest from the WCG: "dystopia sweet dystopia". I'd rather not rationalize that aspect right now, especially if there's an agreement (we just know that, somehow, there are satellites in orbit, and not much beyond that). As for our world, Musk&Co have been doing fine lately, and I am fairly confident we'll see at least a big Moon base in our lifetime. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 01:50, 11 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::The only problem then is, I'm no longer sure that it's still Oni that we're talking about and not some Mass Effect DLC (with timeless Leviathans at the bottom of oceans, or Reapers chilling in the darkness of space until it's "time to collect"). I know you're convinced that the dying Jamie (as dreamed up by Konoko) kinda looks like Barabas, but drawing a parallel between Jamie's complete cellular breakdown and Mai's or Muro's integrity-preserving symbiosis is a bit of a stretch even by my standards. You seem to imply that the "flowering shrub" is Daodan-enhanced (like Konoko? or in some other way that Oni says nothing about?), and Jamie, not having the same DNA signature as the shrub, is destroyed upon contact with its Chrysalis instead of being "reinforced or replaced". So how does this feed back into Oni? If Konoko spits in Griffin's face, does he rot alive in minutes? is that how it works? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::The only problem then is, I'm no longer sure that it's still Oni that we're talking about and not some Mass Effect DLC (with timeless Leviathans at the bottom of oceans, or Reapers chilling in the darkness of space until it's "time to collect"). I know you're convinced that the dying Jamie (as dreamed up by Konoko) kinda looks like Barabas, but drawing a parallel between Jamie's complete cellular breakdown and Mai's or Muro's integrity-preserving symbiosis is a bit of a stretch even by my standards. You seem to imply that the "flowering shrub" is Daodan-enhanced (like Konoko? or in some other way that Oni says nothing about?), and Jamie, not having the same DNA signature as the shrub, is destroyed upon contact with its Chrysalis instead of being "reinforced or replaced". So how does this feed back into Oni? If Konoko spits in Griffin's face, does he rot alive in minutes? is that how it works? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::Lot to respond to here, but I'll try to make it quick: | ::::::Lot to respond to here, but I'll try to make it quick: | ||
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:::::Mostly agree about the Wilderness Preserves being mostly overgrown -- not like a large dump can't be covered in greenery, mind you, or covered-up by limiting access to satellite imagery (Oni's space programs are not the same as NASA's and ESA's, so we don't know what satellites they had in orbit before the Uprising, and who was running them). At any rate, Hasegawa's tale is really telling us that "the world outside the ACCs is poisonous" so, at least in the one Zone that he and Jamie set foot into, the virus (or whatever) had apparently "gone to seed" in most of the Zone's lifeforms (that's if it wasn't in fact airborne, merely using Jamie's open wound as a way in). This is not telling us that the virus (or whatever) didn't spread from a man-made container discarded somewhere deep in the forest, or from a secret underground lab, or from an enigmatic phase portal (or xenoforming time capsule). Like I said earlier, Zones (Preserves) don't all have to look the same or kill their local Jamies in the same fashion. It's only your own Wilderness fixation that's giving you that idea. (For what it's worth, would Jamie's Zone cause "biological contamination" on a plane passing overhead, that would be immediately noticed and reported by pilots? I wouldn't be so sure.) --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::Mostly agree about the Wilderness Preserves being mostly overgrown -- not like a large dump can't be covered in greenery, mind you, or covered-up by limiting access to satellite imagery (Oni's space programs are not the same as NASA's and ESA's, so we don't know what satellites they had in orbit before the Uprising, and who was running them). At any rate, Hasegawa's tale is really telling us that "the world outside the ACCs is poisonous" so, at least in the one Zone that he and Jamie set foot into, the virus (or whatever) had apparently "gone to seed" in most of the Zone's lifeforms (that's if it wasn't in fact airborne, merely using Jamie's open wound as a way in). This is not telling us that the virus (or whatever) didn't spread from a man-made container discarded somewhere deep in the forest, or from a secret underground lab, or from an enigmatic phase portal (or xenoforming time capsule). Like I said earlier, Zones (Preserves) don't all have to look the same or kill their local Jamies in the same fashion. It's only your own Wilderness fixation that's giving you that idea. (For what it's worth, would Jamie's Zone cause "biological contamination" on a plane passing overhead, that would be immediately noticed and reported by pilots? I wouldn't be so sure.) --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::"would Jamie's Zone cause 'biological contamination' on a plane passing overhead?" In my conception, the Wilderness is emitting all kinds of stuff all the time, and there's not just flora down there, but fauna too. So there's any number of things that could cause biological contamination, including bugs that attached themselves to the fuselage, or splattered on it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::"would Jamie's Zone cause 'biological contamination' on a plane passing overhead?" In my conception, the Wilderness is emitting all kinds of stuff all the time, and there's not just flora down there, but fauna too. So there's any number of things that could cause biological contamination, including bugs that attached themselves to the fuselage, or splattered on it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::I'm probably becoming a nuisance by now, but this is very, very strongly reminiscent of Miyazaki's [[Nausicaa|Nausicaä]]. I'll embrace it if I have to, but right now I feel compelled to steer away and look for a different approach to the Zones, less "wilderness preserve"y and more "contaminated zone"y, if you will. After all, "wilderness preserves" is just what the WCG calls them. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 01:50, 11 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::Last but not least, "alien invasions" (doesn't matter if they're space aliens or time aliens or phase aliens) is one of the big caveats of sci-fi for me, if not one of the big no-nos. No matter how unfathomable and unfamiliar you're trying to picture them, they always come across as sock puppets and man-made "golems" (poor copies of ourselves) from the moment they appear on screen. If they turn out to be "bad guys", then the tropes get even worse. I probably could name more than a few exceptions to that rule (good sci-fi with believable aliens, and even with a convincing enough "invasion" going on), but the point is, I'm picky as hell when it comes to those things. The Screamer Queen mentioned by Hardy(?) I would probably tolerate because she'd be all immaterial and hungry, and probably would just equate to (super)natural disaster. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::Last but not least, "alien invasions" (doesn't matter if they're space aliens or time aliens or phase aliens) is one of the big caveats of sci-fi for me, if not one of the big no-nos. No matter how unfathomable and unfamiliar you're trying to picture them, they always come across as sock puppets and man-made "golems" (poor copies of ourselves) from the moment they appear on screen. If they turn out to be "bad guys", then the tropes get even worse. I probably could name more than a few exceptions to that rule (good sci-fi with believable aliens, and even with a convincing enough "invasion" going on), but the point is, I'm picky as hell when it comes to those things. The Screamer Queen mentioned by Hardy(?) I would probably tolerate because she'd be all immaterial and hungry, and probably would just equate to (super)natural disaster. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::I somewhat agree about the dangers of depicting aliens. For how I planned to deal with that, see [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Story#Daomen|this section]], starting with the paragraph beginning "Whatever form". Short answer: barely show them, and use human agents as their proxy. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::I somewhat agree about the dangers of depicting aliens. For how I planned to deal with that, see [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Story#Daomen|this section]], starting with the paragraph beginning "Whatever form". Short answer: barely show them, and use human agents as their proxy. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::Oh? (Muro's daughter, I see...) From my experience, "human proxies" of unfathomable aliens/invaders are even harder to swallow than the unfathomable aliens/invaders themselves -- as soon as the invaders (or their proxy) open their mouths and patiently explain their motives in English (or tell us how it's all "inevitable"), I feel cheated. But never say never, and I can't say for sure that I won't ever be guilty of something like that myself... Steering away from invasion tropes have served me well so far. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 01:50, 11 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::That said, I plead guilty myself -- I imagined an alien race a while back and had been thinking of ways of incorporating them into the Oni universe... as invaders. The Daodan, in that "story", would have been helping Mankind to prepare -- by hyperevolving -- so that they'd survive the encounter with the "actual" enemy all the way in Oni 3. From what I recall those "other aliens" were going to be powerful-but-stupid, kinda like furry zerglings. Good times... --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::That said, I plead guilty myself -- I imagined an alien race a while back and had been thinking of ways of incorporating them into the Oni universe... as invaders. The Daodan, in that "story", would have been helping Mankind to prepare -- by hyperevolving -- so that they'd survive the encounter with the "actual" enemy all the way in Oni 3. From what I recall those "other aliens" were going to be powerful-but-stupid, kinda like furry zerglings. Good times... --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:Having the WCG instituted in 2012 also feels a bit weird, with Jamie dying in 2014 and Chrysalises already grown in 2016 -- it just doesn't leave much time for the TCTF's regulations to have kicked in, or for the Network to have already evolved into "The Syndicate" by the time Hasegawa and Kerr start working there. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | :Having the WCG instituted in 2012 also feels a bit weird, with Jamie dying in 2014 and Chrysalises already grown in 2016 -- it just doesn't leave much time for the TCTF's regulations to have kicked in, or for the Network to have already evolved into "The Syndicate" by the time Hasegawa and Kerr start working there. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | ||