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Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions
Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events (view source)
Revision as of 14:45, 19 June 2020
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:::::::Now that I'm more or less clear on the contamination process, I am going to ask a mercilessly stupid question. If the Diluvians are all about water (not just hibernating on the ocean floor, but apparently pouring water at us as part of the invasion), then what do they care about the above-the-surface biosphere, and how come they're colonizing it with a full-blown garden-of-Eden (plants, insects, herbivores, carnivores), when it would look like they should be xenoforming the oceans (aquasphere) instead? Even if they need toxic air on the surface, it would make more sense if they pumped it in in large quantities through volcanoes and geysers and such (Yellowstone and Kamchatka as WPs? hmmm...). If I were them, I'd also be responsible for the greenhouse effect, because, melted icecaps, Waterworld sweet Waterworld. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:18, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::Now that I'm more or less clear on the contamination process, I am going to ask a mercilessly stupid question. If the Diluvians are all about water (not just hibernating on the ocean floor, but apparently pouring water at us as part of the invasion), then what do they care about the above-the-surface biosphere, and how come they're colonizing it with a full-blown garden-of-Eden (plants, insects, herbivores, carnivores), when it would look like they should be xenoforming the oceans (aquasphere) instead? Even if they need toxic air on the surface, it would make more sense if they pumped it in in large quantities through volcanoes and geysers and such (Yellowstone and Kamchatka as WPs? hmmm...). If I were them, I'd also be responsible for the greenhouse effect, because, melted icecaps, Waterworld sweet Waterworld. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:18, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::Here you've caught me in a contradiction. At one point I planned to make the Daomen aquatic creatures. This would be compatible with the notion I had of making them as large as possible, bigger than dinosaurs even, which I thought would be nice and unsettling. Then I realized, as you point out, that the above-ground world shouldn't matter much to them. So I am also considering making them land-dwelling. One could argue that an oceanic environment still depends on the air outside the oceans being of a certain composition. Also, they could be amphibious! --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::Here you've caught me in a contradiction. At one point I planned to make the Daomen aquatic creatures. This would be compatible with the notion I had of making them as large as possible, bigger than dinosaurs even, which I thought would be nice and unsettling. Then I realized, as you point out, that the above-ground world shouldn't matter much to them. So I am also considering making them land-dwelling. One could argue that an oceanic environment still depends on the air outside the oceans being of a certain composition. Also, they could be amphibious! --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::Land-dwelling/amphibious Leviathans/Diluvians/Whoever can't be much larger than dinosaurs, unless they have adamantium grafts or are held up by blimps/antigravity/etc. Ocean-dwelling looks fine to me, and -- if I may -- you can actually make the ocean into the main tool of their strength. Each individual could be kaiju-sized -- large as f##k, but not so large as to dwarf a skyscraper --, but the aquasphere would connect all the individuals together and make them into a planet-size hivemind, capable of mind control (like Lem's Solaris) or large-scale "waterbending" (tsunami and the like). So, something like whale-sized midichlorians. ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::Pushing that idea further, the "phase veil" can be seen a side effect of the Diluvian hivemind, and the improbable emergence of Phase tech in human scope (around 2000 AD) may be directly linked to the Diluvians awaking from stasis. In that view, the other worlds and "transdimensional" phenomena are not created by the Diluvians, but their planet-size hivemind is what makes it all apparent and "tangible". Thus, if we were to kill all the Diluvians, phase phenomena all over the world would shut down and portals to other worlds (if any) would be closed permanently. In that case it wouldn't be as clear-cut as "destroy or be destroyed": the WCG placed its bets on Phase tech (and scrapped most of the old tech), so they wouldn't be too keen on going back to the Stone age. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::The malevolence of the Diluvians (i.e., how and why they would pollute the above-the-surface world) isn't entirely clear to me, but here are a few thoughts. If you are linking the "invasion" to the P-Tr extinctions, then it would look like the Diluvians would just need a world with much less acidity in the oceans, and much less CO2 in the air, and that's about it -- i.e., essentially, they'd try to reverse the massive emergence of oxygen-breathing lifeforms. Supposedly they could achieve this by seeding the surface with an entirely different ecosystem (something that systematically eats up CO2 -- and thus leaves photosynthetic plants to die --, and turns it into various organic compounds, some of them hazardous). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::As a complement to that theory (and a deviation from yours), perhaps the Wilderness is not a planned xenoforming leading up to an "invasion", but rather a more or less regular process through which the Diluvians regulate the ocean's acidity? In other words, they do not intend to destroy the above-the-surface world so that they can "roam it once again", rather they are just "helping" us to keep our CO2 levels in check. Perhaps they're quite content with their meditative semi-stasis on the ocean floor, and wouldn't have gone to the trouble of "waking up" and infecting the WPs if it hadn't been for the XX century surge in greenhouse gases. And perhaps they're not keen on killing us either, it's just that we're like bugs to them, and all they care about is the CO2. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::Re: xenoforming, I definitely think that life (self-replicating machinery) is the best way to do this, rather than something as laborious as digging channels through the earth up into volcanoes, and pumping air produced by massive machinery. In real life, terraforming another planet via plant life would take many generations, but the Daodan's influence is my excuse for vastly speeding up the process. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::Re: xenoforming, I definitely think that life (self-replicating machinery) is the best way to do this, rather than something as laborious as digging channels through the earth up into volcanoes, and pumping air produced by massive machinery. In real life, terraforming another planet via plant life would take many generations, but the Daodan's influence is my excuse for vastly speeding up the process. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::Actually, I wasn't thinking tunnels and pumps, more like teleporting stuff directly into the volcanoes, or messing with submerged rifts and other tectonically active regions. But if the goal is to "eat up" the excess CO2 (without bothering much about byproducts), then seeding the Earth with "anti-plants" makes sense (see my elaboration above). I'm still not sure that we should be bringing the Daodan into this, though. To me it seems more comfortable if WP-based terraforming (if any) is one thing (reverse photosynthesis with poisonous byproducts, possibly "engineered" by Diluvians or "maxi-chlorians" or whatever), and the Daodan -- like the Screamers -- is another phase entity, one of many, and unrelated to the terraforming/invasion/whatever. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::"As long as that plant contained the Daodan, it doesn't matter if anything else did." As I said above, the similarities between Jamie's cellular breakdown and Daodan symbiosis are actually minor, and even Hasegawa's notion of a "poisonous world" doesn't quite describe the Wilderness as you see it (in my opinion), as well as Muro's "dead air and foul water". But, even if the bush was Daodan-enhanced, Hasegawa would want to know if it was just that one bush that was "poisonous", or that particular bush species, or, as he actually puts it, the whole "world outside the Atmospheric Processors". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::"As long as that plant contained the Daodan, it doesn't matter if anything else did." As I said above, the similarities between Jamie's cellular breakdown and Daodan symbiosis are actually minor, and even Hasegawa's notion of a "poisonous world" doesn't quite describe the Wilderness as you see it (in my opinion), as well as Muro's "dead air and foul water". But, even if the bush was Daodan-enhanced, Hasegawa would want to know if it was just that one bush that was "poisonous", or that particular bush species, or, as he actually puts it, the whole "world outside the Atmospheric Processors". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::One thing that you're not making clear in your Wilderness theory is how it spread a lot at first, engulfing large areas, and then seemingly stopped. If Daodan symbiosis propagates upon contact, and each affected cell becomes a new source, then wouldn't the WCG need to build new rings of fences every week? Also, it it's so good at spreading-upon-contact, then wouldn't it have hit Hasegawa too? Airplanes flying over a Zone notice contamination in the air -- spores? pollen? -- and Hasegawa is down there breathing that stuff... And, for that matter, if it causes noticable contamination on aircraft then why hasn't airborne propagation caused generalized Daodanization yet? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::One thing that you're not making clear in your Wilderness theory is how it spread a lot at first, engulfing large areas, and then seemingly stopped. If Daodan symbiosis propagates upon contact, and each affected cell becomes a new source, then wouldn't the WCG need to build new rings of fences every week? Also, it it's so good at spreading-upon-contact, then wouldn't it have hit Hasegawa too? Airplanes flying over a Zone notice contamination in the air -- spores? pollen? -- and Hasegawa is down there breathing that stuff... And, for that matter, if it causes noticable contamination on aircraft then why hasn't airborne propagation caused generalized Daodanization yet? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
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:::::::My problem with the super-fence is that it sounds like a non-trivial installation, about as crucial/capital/vital as the ACCs, and yet it is completely missing from Hasegawa's tale (judging by the accents in his narrative in combination with the dream-a-roids). That, and how Daodan science is depicted as revolving around the Chrysalis, with the Wilderness cited only as the source of Hasegawa's "doomsday mindset". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:18, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::My problem with the super-fence is that it sounds like a non-trivial installation, about as crucial/capital/vital as the ACCs, and yet it is completely missing from Hasegawa's tale (judging by the accents in his narrative in combination with the dream-a-roids). That, and how Daodan science is depicted as revolving around the Chrysalis, with the Wilderness cited only as the source of Hasegawa's "doomsday mindset". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:18, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::The fence's energy field needn't be anything stronger than a bug zapper. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::The fence's energy field needn't be anything stronger than a bug zapper. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::Erm, if it has the range of a bug zapper, then nothing's keeping bugs or birds from flying over the fence (or wind-carried spores/seeds, even), allowing the Wilderness to cross the fence just as if it wasn't there. Either the containment needs to be "germ-tight" somehow, of the Wilderness isn't as volatile as you've been suggesting. I think I'd prefer the latter. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::I'd actually like to back up to a higher level and address what I think is your largest single question, which is, "Why complicate things when it's clear that Hardy just intended the Preserves to be waste dumps?" I felt it was necessary to diverge from this approach precisely because of the derivative feeling of the "social commentary". Industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada. Been there, done that dystopia. Likewise, if Oni's world was said to be warming dangerously, I would find some way to subvert that narrative into a more interesting, less "concern of the moment" type of problem. Star Trek IV was entertaining but nowadays nobody has any idea what it's going on about with all that whale stuff. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::I'd actually like to back up to a higher level and address what I think is your largest single question, which is, "Why complicate things when it's clear that Hardy just intended the Preserves to be waste dumps?" I felt it was necessary to diverge from this approach precisely because of the derivative feeling of the "social commentary". Industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada. Been there, done that dystopia. Likewise, if Oni's world was said to be warming dangerously, I would find some way to subvert that narrative into a more interesting, less "concern of the moment" type of problem. Star Trek IV was entertaining but nowadays nobody has any idea what it's going on about with all that whale stuff. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::Well, alien-engineered global warming sure would come in handy if it made Earth more "waterworldy". I may be getting it wrong, but your Daomen/Diluvians would actually be at home in a world with no icecaps and a significantly higher ocean level. It's still be a reference to the modern-day issue of global warming, but with an alien-initiative twist that could possibly act as a redeeming factor (if done right of course). As for Hardy's take on pollution, I think that there's not a lot to diverge from, actually, because canon Oni is no longer hammering it home as "industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada". Jamie was killed by an unidentified "virus", there are mad scientists doing ghastly stuff (Navarre), bioweapons are hinted at in the manual, and Phase tech can "enhance" man-made pestilence further, power-of-seven-fold if needed. So it's not like WPs are pure eco-activist cliché and can only be redeemed through alien ingerence. At least that's how I feel about it. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:18, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::Well, alien-engineered global warming sure would come in handy if it made Earth more "waterworldy". I may be getting it wrong, but your Daomen/Diluvians would actually be at home in a world with no icecaps and a significantly higher ocean level. It's still be a reference to the modern-day issue of global warming, but with an alien-initiative twist that could possibly act as a redeeming factor (if done right of course). As for Hardy's take on pollution, I think that there's not a lot to diverge from, actually, because canon Oni is no longer hammering it home as "industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada". Jamie was killed by an unidentified "virus", there are mad scientists doing ghastly stuff (Navarre), bioweapons are hinted at in the manual, and Phase tech can "enhance" man-made pestilence further, power-of-seven-fold if needed. So it's not like WPs are pure eco-activist cliché and can only be redeemed through alien ingerence. At least that's how I feel about it. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:18, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | ||