Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions

:::::::::::Saying "pretty clearly" is pushing it a bit. The existence of "another world" isn't directly stated in Oni, only in Hardy's description of a "Screamer World", but there's the WPge mention of how the Screamers "seem to exist out of Earth phase". Regardless, we seem to be agreeing on the "fact" that the Phase is like a "fringe" (or hub), rather than an alternative Earth. You call it a "veil", I call it the Phase, but we're still referring to this ever-changing "in-between-ness" that's immediately adjacent to our world, but which no one (at least in Oni canon) has been able to traverse. Whether there are 3D worlds beyond the "veil", and how many if any, we do not know. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::No, we're actually using the terminology quite differently. Perhaps this is responsible for a lot of confusion. I think we both assumed the other was operating off the same definitions. To me, the term "phase" simply describes the state of an object — what "dimension" is it in? Phase tech is technology that manipulates the phase of objects. The "phase veil" that Hardy spoke of is simply the boundary between this world and another. Neither term is referring to a place. I'm quite confident about that reading of Oni's premise. There is no term given in the game for the actual "other side" that Screaming Cells are drawn from. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::Just so you know (or remember), projected weapons for "my" Oni2 included a "halver" (something that would decrease your presence in this world with every hit, and shifting presence to "another world" (or to immaterial "limbo presence"); while "halved" you would be less visible to others, and you would get visions of the Phase (and/or of the "other" world). Same for teleporting -- while "phased out" your vision of the "real world" is blurred and augmented with "phase visions", not unlike wearing the ring in Jackson's LOTR. I also wanted to have "screaming swords" and "screaming whips" -- life-draining, blood-less "cold weapons", which would operate and look similarly to Spirit claws/tentacles from Final Fantasy: The Spirit Within. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::Sounds interesting. I have some material in my Oni 2 notes as well about life-draining whips. Though it's rather difficult to make them work in a 3D game, but I suppose it's been done here and there. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::If it were up to me, I wouldn't keep much of those "[https://3dbrute.com/homunculus-loxodontus/ Waiters]" or their human/Daodan proxies, except for the notion that the Phase is tied to "Gaia", i.e., that you can't do phase tech in outer space. It would explain why Oni's sci-fi-powered civilization isn't actively colonizing Mars or the Moon, and it would keep the plot "Earth-centered" in a [[wp:Ring Around the Sun (novel)|Ring Around the Sun]] kind of way. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:06, 10 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::To me, it would be much more surprising if the world of Oni ''was'' doing anything advanced in space. Where do you think ''we'll'' be in 12 years? Even colonizing the moon? Doubtful (sadly). Oni's world doesn't feel a lot more advanced than ours except for their phase tech, and there's nothing in the canonical depiction of that technology which would aid in settling another world. I would expect Oni's world to be ''less'' advanced in matters of space than ours, seeing as they have some very time-consuming and expensive issues to deal with here on Earth. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::I haven't found the time to re-read ASFO2, either, or SoW, or RS/CB. We all have our realities (children, working hours, RL projects, conflicting hobbies), so things happen when they happen, not sooner. I am not apathetic to Hardy's work (can't really say until I read it, though), but you of all people should understand how attention span works. Re:bush, it seems to me like you're reacting to the wrong thing. Oni's scientists see the Chrysalis as ominous ("what the presence of such a creature might portend for humanity we cannot know", etc), regardless of her impetuous personality (although it matters too, rash decisions and all). Your Wilderness is ominous too (per Oni canon, Hasegawa saw is as an "impending collapse of the Earth's biosphere"; you're giving it a different twist but it's still a doomsday scenario). But they're very different ominousnesses, and it's presenting them as two sides of the same medal that seems forced to me. The ''variety'' of Wilderness lifeforms, their poisonousness (as opposed to a Chrysalis's resilience), and how the Daodan scientists only talk about the Chrysalis -- that's what sets the two concepts apart (in my impression). The Daodans that were used to enhance Konoko and Muro, and the ones that are supposedly enhancing every living being in the Zones -- they look like very different Daodans to me, so much that I would just as soon label them differently: Daodan as the thing powering a Chrysalis as per Oni canon, and "Shmaodan" or whatever as the alien invasion proxy virus thing that supposedly killed Jamie. I'm only speaking my mind, of course -- this is just how I feel about your theory here and now. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::The Daodan enhancing my Wilderness *is* a very different thing from the ones in Muro and Konoko. In the first case you have the natural Daodan and in the second you have the Daodan Chrysalis. There's no reason to expect that they would behave the same. And again, comparing life that does not have agency, like plants, with life that does is a big mistake. The Chrysalis is frightening because it's inside a human; it would be much less intimidating inside of a fern. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::A couple more things: I don't understand how the variety of life in the Wilderness has anything to say about the presence or absence of a Daodan in that life. Also, I'm not sold on the idea that everything in the Wilderness is poisonous. That seems illogical under both the "industrial pollution" theory and my "Daodan Wilderness" theory. Hasegawa only makes the statement that "the world outside the Atmospheric Processors is poisonous", which is clearly a generalization or they wouldn't have survived out there at all. All we really know is that the bush that scratched Jamie is inimical to human life, and air emanating from the Wilderness apparently is linked to the BioCrisis. In my opinion, my explanation actually works better with Oni's notion of a BioCrisis than the "straight" reading that it's all just a lot of industrial waste making everything toxic. (Also, Hasegawa says he's going to do something about "the nightmare that killed her", which would be an odd way to describe a toxic waste dump.)  --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::On a sidenote, I don't see a strong correlation with Nausicaa's and my work, so perhaps this Miyazaki manga is just an obsession of yours. I could easily reduce your ideas to references to existing works as well, but haven't done so. "There is nothing new under the sun." All we can do is try to present old ideas in a new light. Presuming that you can create anything truly novel is vanity. And putting words in my mouth to make my ideas seem more Nausicaa-like is especially rude, so please stop. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::The edit history of the Nausicaa page(s) seems to indicate that you've been fascinated with the Wilderness/Sea-Of-Corruption parallel as much as myself, if not more, and the insects splashing into airplanes and/or seeding new territories just rang ''so'' many bells for me (sorry). Anyway, you are bringing up an important point -- not only are we bound to "contaminate" the story with cultural influences or tropes, but the very core of our work is referential/parasitic since we are "enhancing" an existing work by Hardy&Co, as if it was in need of an enhancement. I don't feel guilt over this, but I do feel a certain responsibility. If it was a new story we were telling, then we would be entitled to any kind of creative licence -- including, and not limited to, the "nothing new under the sun" attitude, i.e., more-or-less indiscriminate "melting-pot"-ness. For a derivative work, I feel like I need to be super-careful and super-discriminate about the alienation. Using Kerr's lexicon: whatever the final form or our work, it should be an expression of Oni's true nature. And, to take the analogy even further, I would hate it if, by the end of my work as a storyteller, Oni grew horns and became all livid and veiny-like. "Glorious, isn't it?" -- do not want. That's all. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::Agreed that we don't want to port a lot of stuff in from other places. I'm generally against taking inspiration from anything, consciously, in anything I create. If I ended up taking any influence from Nausicaa, it was only because extrapolating logically from the sparse facts in Oni's plot led me there. But in the end Oni should be an action game in a cyberpunk universe, so of course we don't want to turn Mai into Nausicaa and the Wilderness into the Sea of Corruption. Considering the twist in Nausicaa that the forest is actually a good thing, my take on the Wilderness is very much in the opposite direction: it will irrevocably destroy Earth's current biosphere if it isn't stopped. No twist in the end about it actually being a good thing, and no way to co-exist; it's destroy or be destroyed, and the Daodan symbiotes are unfortunately on the wrong side (biologically speaking). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::Not sure what you mean with the role of "game design" (2D/3D themes/assets? or gameplay choices?), but I'm trying very hard to keep additions and "departures" to a minimum. Biopunk, as far as I can tell, is already in Oni (it doesn't matter that it started as a GITS clone -- by 2001 it already had an identity of its own, with the original SLD and Daodan/Chrysalis concepts at its core). And the balance with cyberpunk is achieved quite naturally, because you still have those huge machines for growing/monitoring all the biotech, the man-machine interface, sub-dermal chips and cables, cyborg parts, etc. As for the rest, I tend to list alternative takes intermixed with my preferences, so you may not always realize how little I'm actually adding. For one thing, I haven't had any need for Forerunners or Protheans so far. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:05, 10 June 2020 (CEST)   

::::::::"Not sure what you mean with the role of "game design" (2D/3D themes/assets? or gameplay choices?)" — the former. The atmosphere of the game will be cyberpunk precisely to the degree that the levels are set in cyberpunk surroundings. If the focus, on the other hand, was on exploring the Wilderness, it would be a very different game indeed. I'm not suggesting we do that, if you look at my settings concepts on the SoW Settings page. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST)