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Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions
Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events (view source)
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:::::::::::::Here you go again with an "alien enemy" going for a very literal "land grab". Simply put, I'm against it: it's human motives in alien attire, and human-sized minions don't really help. Also, to me it sounds more like "Dunby 4" than "Oni 2", see the final battles of [https://half-life.fandom.com/wiki/Gene_Worm#Gallery HL:Opposing Force], [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_p424bYTFQ&t=12s Borderlands]<ref group=geyser>I hope you can appreciate Angel's eerily fitting advice in "Destroy the Destroyer": ''Don't give up! This creature may be immortal in its own realm, but in this reality it cannot survive without a host, and that makes it vulnerable. When it becomes flesh and blood, it can be hurt, even killed. You just need to know where to aim.</ref> -- and that's just off the top of a non-gamer's head. I'll try and present you with a final challenge concept that's more original and compelling (to me, of course). Off the top of my head, taking the fight ''inside'' of a giant alien is something I'm sure to bring up, so here goes: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNqSLisW6z0 Fiona and Sasha inside the Traveler]--[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::Here you go again with an "alien enemy" going for a very literal "land grab". Simply put, I'm against it: it's human motives in alien attire, and human-sized minions don't really help. Also, to me it sounds more like "Dunby 4" than "Oni 2", see the final battles of [https://half-life.fandom.com/wiki/Gene_Worm#Gallery HL:Opposing Force], [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_p424bYTFQ&t=12s Borderlands]<ref group=geyser>I hope you can appreciate Angel's eerily fitting advice in "Destroy the Destroyer": ''Don't give up! This creature may be immortal in its own realm, but in this reality it cannot survive without a host, and that makes it vulnerable. When it becomes flesh and blood, it can be hurt, even killed. You just need to know where to aim.</ref> -- and that's just off the top of a non-gamer's head. I'll try and present you with a final challenge concept that's more original and compelling (to me, of course). Off the top of my head, taking the fight ''inside'' of a giant alien is something I'm sure to bring up, so here goes: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNqSLisW6z0 Fiona and Sasha inside the Traveler]--[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::I'm not in favor of the idea that the aliens control the ocean and can cause tsunamis. As you pointed out, a tsunami could be avoided by staying inland. So it's either world-ending (no way to fight back against a massive wave), or it's out of sight and of little importance to the characters you're controlling. It also changes the nature of the story's big threat from xenoforming to a more conventional end-of-world scenario. I like the rest of your suggestion, about the increase in phase activity or anomalies, though this could also be explained by the simple fact that humans invented phase tech and are finding an increasing number of ways to use it, perhaps unaware of the dangers that come with it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::I'm not in favor of the idea that the aliens control the ocean and can cause tsunamis. As you pointed out, a tsunami could be avoided by staying inland. So it's either world-ending (no way to fight back against a massive wave), or it's out of sight and of little importance to the characters you're controlling. It also changes the nature of the story's big threat from xenoforming to a more conventional end-of-world scenario. I like the rest of your suggestion, about the increase in phase activity or anomalies, though this could also be explained by the simple fact that humans invented phase tech and are finding an increasing number of ways to use it, perhaps unaware of the dangers that come with it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::As you have noted yourself the threat of increasingly awake/aware Diluvians is a hybrid one. Tsunamis (if any) are only part of the picture, and can be seen merely as a plot device for destroying familiar cityscapes and driving subsequent action into new locations. The influence of an increasingly active hivemind on the Wilderness is a much farther-reaching threat (explosive growth), as well as the possible emergence of human proxies ( | :::::::::::::As you have noted yourself the threat of increasingly awake/aware Diluvians is a hybrid one. Tsunamis (if any) are only part of the picture, and can be seen merely as a plot device for destroying familiar cityscapes and driving subsequent action into new locations. The influence of an increasingly active hivemind on the Wilderness is a much farther-reaching threat (explosive growth? you got it!), as well as the possible emergence of human proxies (another of your suggestions). As for the more general surge of phase anomalies -- whether a heightened Phase activity is spontaneous, man-made, or caused by Diluvian cycles, I am glad that you acknowledge the additional plot-driving potential of such a development (complementary to the Wilderness threat). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::Pushing that idea further, the "phase veil" can be seen as a side effect of the Diluvian hivemind, and the improbable emergence of Phase tech in human scope (around 2000 AD) may be directly linked to the Diluvians awaking from stasis. In that view, the "other worlds" (if any) and "transdimensional" phenomena are not created by the Diluvians, but their planet-sized hivemind is what makes it all apparent and "tangible" to us. Thus, if we were to kill all the Diluvians, phase phenomena all over the world would shut down and portals to other worlds (if any) would be closed permanently. In that case it wouldn't be as clear-cut as "destroy or be destroyed": the WCG placed its bets on Phase tech (and scrapped most of the old tech), so they wouldn't be too keen on going back to the Stone age. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::Pushing that idea further, the "phase veil" can be seen as a side effect of the Diluvian hivemind, and the improbable emergence of Phase tech in human scope (around 2000 AD) may be directly linked to the Diluvians awaking from stasis. In that view, the "other worlds" (if any) and "transdimensional" phenomena are not created by the Diluvians, but their planet-sized hivemind is what makes it all apparent and "tangible" to us. Thus, if we were to kill all the Diluvians, phase phenomena all over the world would shut down and portals to other worlds (if any) would be closed permanently. In that case it wouldn't be as clear-cut as "destroy or be destroyed": the WCG placed its bets on Phase tech (and scrapped most of the old tech), so they wouldn't be too keen on going back to the Stone age. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::The malevolence of the Diluvians (i.e., how and why they would pollute the above-the-surface world) isn't entirely clear to me, but here are a few thoughts. If you are linking the "invasion" to the P-Tr extinctions, then it would look like the Diluvians would just need a world with much less acidity in the oceans, and much less CO2 in the air, and that's about it -- i.e., essentially, they'd try to reverse the massive emergence of oxygen-breathing lifeforms. Supposedly they could achieve this by seeding the surface with a super ecosystem (super-plants that would eat up CO2 very quicky -- and thus leave regular photosynthetic plants to die --, while producing not plain O2 but various organic compounds, some of them hazardous). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::The malevolence of the Diluvians (i.e., how and why they would pollute the above-the-surface world) isn't entirely clear to me, but here are a few thoughts. If you are linking the "invasion" to the P-Tr extinctions, then it would look like the Diluvians would just need a world with much less acidity in the oceans, and much less CO2 in the air, and that's about it -- i.e., essentially, they'd try to reverse the massive emergence of oxygen-breathing lifeforms. Supposedly they could achieve this by seeding the surface with a super ecosystem (super-plants that would eat up CO2 very quicky -- and thus leave regular photosynthetic plants to die --, while producing not plain O2 but various organic compounds, some of them hazardous). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
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::::::::::::Two things to reply to here. '''A)''' Regarding a direct confrontation with the alien(s), I still think that's about as good an idea as having said alien(s) communicate in English. If they really are territorial/protective about Daodan symbiosis (perceiving human symbiotes either as a direct threat to their existence or as an anomaly that needs correcting), then I'd expect them to keep operating on a "Gaia" level, squashing symbiotes with tsunamis, or phase-jamming them somehow (forcing their Daodans into latency -- another possible explanation for Mai's stasis/amnesia between Oni and "my" Oni2). '''B)''' As for the "difficulty that humanity seems to be having in making Daodan symbiotes" -- and how it may already be a Diluvian counter to Mai's and Muro's inception -- I don't think there is much to support this theory (other than the "it's up to us" argument). We see in Oni that human symbiosis is delicate to monitor and to stabilize -- especially, it would seem, on a grown adult (Mai and Muro, who were implanted at a young age, turn out OK; Barabas, not so much, and Mukade comes across as a bit of a freak too). Even if we can't exclude that Hasegawa is the only one who knew how to "pull it off" and took the secret to his grave (or wherever he is now), my personal impression is that the knowledge wasn't lost, it's just used very sparingly. For Griffin's Damocles, it's the ethical aspects that hold the scientists back (and the massive logistics of Mai's monitoring, too). For Muro, a symbiote's unconditional loyalty seems to be a key requirement, at least until the STURMANDERUNG initiative is complete, therefore the only symbiotes (or symbiote candidates) at the time of Oni's events are Muro's personal pets (or otherwise worthy people). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::Two things to reply to here. '''A)''' Regarding a direct confrontation with the alien(s), I still think that's about as good an idea as having said alien(s) communicate in English. If they really are territorial/protective about Daodan symbiosis (perceiving human symbiotes either as a direct threat to their existence or as an anomaly that needs correcting), then I'd expect them to keep operating on a "Gaia" level, squashing symbiotes with tsunamis, or phase-jamming them somehow (forcing their Daodans into latency -- another possible explanation for Mai's stasis/amnesia between Oni and "my" Oni2). '''B)''' As for the "difficulty that humanity seems to be having in making Daodan symbiotes" -- and how it may already be a Diluvian counter to Mai's and Muro's inception -- I don't think there is much to support this theory (other than the "it's up to us" argument). We see in Oni that human symbiosis is delicate to monitor and to stabilize -- especially, it would seem, on a grown adult (Mai and Muro, who were implanted at a young age, turn out OK; Barabas, not so much, and Mukade comes across as a bit of a freak too). Even if we can't exclude that Hasegawa is the only one who knew how to "pull it off" and took the secret to his grave (or wherever he is now), my personal impression is that the knowledge wasn't lost, it's just used very sparingly. For Griffin's Damocles, it's the ethical aspects that hold the scientists back (and the massive logistics of Mai's monitoring, too). For Muro, a symbiote's unconditional loyalty seems to be a key requirement, at least until the STURMANDERUNG initiative is complete, therefore the only symbiotes (or symbiote candidates) at the time of Oni's events are Muro's personal pets (or otherwise worthy people). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::To reiterate, I never said anything about the aliens speaking English or communicating directly with humans at all. But it's helpful for storytelling and game design purposes if there are human servants of the aliens who can explain what their mission is. Any concern you might have about explaining things too clearly is simply a matter of style — the choices that are made in how the dialogue is written and staged — and way premature at this point. I see no reason to explain everything 100%, but it's also unsatisfactory in the extreme to have aliens that are simply acting without any explanation or spokesman. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::To reiterate, I never said anything about the aliens speaking English or communicating directly with humans at all. But it's helpful for storytelling and game design purposes if there are human servants of the aliens who can explain what their mission is. Any concern you might have about explaining things too clearly is simply a matter of style — the choices that are made in how the dialogue is written and staged — and way premature at this point. I see no reason to explain everything 100%, but it's also unsatisfactory in the extreme to have aliens that are simply acting without any explanation or spokesman. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::I didn't say your aliens would communicate in English, I just meant that fighting a kaiju, sci-fi-wise, is about as good an idea as speaking to one (that's probably a statement on our own communication skills, eh). As for explaining alien motives clearly or at all, indeed much of it is a matter of personal preference and style, and could be debated/polished later, but I feel like using this opportunity to debate/decide just how much there would be to explain. If you allow for the possibility that a Diluvian is really an early Earth organism exalted through Daodan symbiosis, then that supposed hyper-evolution took it straight to a cosmic level of awareness -- bypassing any notion of emotion, language, religion, science, culture, etc. The way I see it, those things don't just have an inhuman mindset, they don't even have any animal instincts besides survival -- and it's those raw survival reflexes that lead to WP xenoforming, Phase resurgence, etc. Thus maybe we can have them placid, and leave the invasions to someone else (like Screamers, or "giants from beyond the veil"?)? Also, for what it's worth, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbNqPEqLa7o HERE] is what I regard as a decent rendition of communication with a primitive yet sentient lifeform. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::I didn't say your aliens would communicate in English, I just meant that fighting a kaiju, sci-fi-wise, is about as good an idea as speaking to one (that's probably a statement on our own communication skills, eh). As for explaining alien motives clearly or at all, indeed much of it is a matter of personal preference and style, and could be debated/polished later, but I feel like using this opportunity to debate/decide just how much there would be to explain. If you allow for the possibility that a Diluvian is really an early Earth organism exalted through Daodan symbiosis, then that supposed hyper-evolution took it straight to a cosmic level of awareness -- bypassing any notion of emotion, language, religion, science, culture, etc. The way I see it, those things don't just have an inhuman mindset, they don't even have any animal instincts besides survival -- and it's those raw survival reflexes (paired with godlike power) that lead to WP xenoforming, Phase resurgence, etc. Thus maybe we can have them placid (mostly), and leave the invasions to someone else (like Screamers, or "giants from beyond the veil"?)? Also, for what it's worth, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbNqPEqLa7o HERE] is what I regard as a decent rendition of communication with a primitive yet sentient lifeform. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::You bring up good points about why it might have been a choice not to pump out large numbers of symbiotes from either the Syndicate or the TCTF, but it doesn't feel like the reason that the story is implying. Why is Muro stealing experimental gene surgery equipment? Why are only "secondary" symbiotes being created, unlike Muro and Mai? The impression one gets is that knowledge has indeed been lost (taken) by the absent Hasegawa. Kerr, of course, only absconded with Mai and the Chrysalis based off her DNA, and it's possible that he too is unable to replicate Hasegawa's research. Still, isn't it rather odd that neither Kerr nor the Syndicate have enough data, years later, to replicate Hasegawa's work? You may say that Muro is capable of doing so, but simply sees the creation of full-fledged symbiotes as too dangerous… but that's not what his STURMANDERUNG plan suggested: "11) Symbiote candidate selection and implantation". Muro was working on a way to elevate others to his level, otherwise who would even be left to work under him? So whatever happened before Oni starts that caused the loss of knowledge and ability regarding the Daodan, there's a major lacuna in the story here that has to be filled in Oni 2. Outside interference makes as much sense as a theory as anything else does. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::You bring up good points about why it might have been a choice not to pump out large numbers of symbiotes from either the Syndicate or the TCTF, but it doesn't feel like the reason that the story is implying. Why is Muro stealing experimental gene surgery equipment? Why are only "secondary" symbiotes being created, unlike Muro and Mai? The impression one gets is that knowledge has indeed been lost (taken) by the absent Hasegawa. Kerr, of course, only absconded with Mai and the Chrysalis based off her DNA, and it's possible that he too is unable to replicate Hasegawa's research. Still, isn't it rather odd that neither Kerr nor the Syndicate have enough data, years later, to replicate Hasegawa's work? You may say that Muro is capable of doing so, but simply sees the creation of full-fledged symbiotes as too dangerous… but that's not what his STURMANDERUNG plan suggested: "11) Symbiote candidate selection and implantation". Muro was working on a way to elevate others to his level, otherwise who would even be left to work under him? So whatever happened before Oni starts that caused the loss of knowledge and ability regarding the Daodan, there's a major lacuna in the story here that has to be filled in Oni 2. Outside interference makes as much sense as a theory as anything else does. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::First off, the STURMANDERUNG consoles are very, very badly written, from the funkily-indexed "plan for world domination" to the infamous "increase percentage", and finally Konoko's "monkey hacking". Now is as good a time as any to say that I'd probably rewrite it, and it will help if we can agree on the implications that we'd like to convey when and if that happens (because self-centered overstatement is a sin ^_^ ). Some of the most obvious things I'd fix: steps (4), (8) and (12) are missing, and (10) is the same as (6) -- carried over, possibly, and leading towards (14) -- whereas ACC sabotage starts as early as (1) and (2) and then ACCs are never mentioned until (13). More generally, the timeline of mountain-compound construction, ACC sabotage and satellite uplinking needs to be clarified -- at least to the point where those consoles don't look like something Hardy threw together at the last minute. And of course I'd try and expand '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' into something relatable. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::First off, the STURMANDERUNG consoles are very, very badly written, from the funkily-indexed "plan for world domination" to the infamous "increase percentage", and finally Konoko's "monkey hacking". Now is as good a time as any to say that I'd probably rewrite it, and it will help if we can agree on the implications that we'd like to convey when and if that happens (because self-centered overstatement is a sin ^_^ ). Some of the most obvious things I'd fix: steps (4), (8) and (12) are missing, and (10) is the same as (6) -- carried over, possibly, and leading towards (14) -- whereas ACC sabotage starts as early as (1) and (2) and then ACCs are never mentioned until (13). More generally, the timeline of mountain-compound construction, ACC sabotage and satellite uplinking needs to be clarified -- at least to the point where those consoles don't look like something Hardy threw together at the last minute. And of course I'd try and expand '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' into something relatable. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::Second -- face it, man: your "it doesn't feel like the reason that the story is implying" and "the impression one gets is that..." are entirely subjective. You are suggesting a "loss of knowledge and ability regarding the Daodan" as fact, I will argue to the contrary. And, if it is true that Diluvian interference "makes as much sense as a theory as anything else does", then by all means ''do'' hear out what I make of Oni's material -- spoiler: in my view, there isn't much of a lacuna to fill --, and just what the "anything else" might be. Simple things first, let me reiterate that even if Kerr brought some notes along (like, on a portable drive) -- and thus was easily cornered by Griffin when it was time to implant and monitor Mai's Chrysalis --, the WCG's regulations wouldn't have allowed Griffin to banalize symbiosis and to experiment on other people.<ref group=geyser>'''G.C.''' How do you plead?<br>'''J.J.''' Not guilty! My experiments are only theoretical, and completely within legal boundaries.<br>'''G.C.''' We believe you actually... created something.<br>'''J.J.''' "Created something?" Hah! ''That'' would be... irresponsible! and unethical! I would never, ever... <Stitch is revealed> ...make... more than one.</ref> Griffin is probably frustrated about this, but his hands are tied by the Directorate, and this frustration escalates to the science team.<ref>[[Quotes/Consoles#Sytropin|'''Quote:''']] Project goals remain unclear: Commander Griffin seems content to stabilize the host/Daodan symbiote for as long as possible.</ref> That's why Kerr ''et al'' can't do much besides observing Konoko's "wild" transformation, trying their best to keep it sedated, and recommending cryo as the only sensible approach. Some of those scientists would be happy to have more test subjects, but they're prisoners in this, so they don't get to call any shots. And they can't try anything too daring on Konoko, either, or they may ruin Griffin's only trump card against Muro. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::Second -- face it, man: your "it doesn't feel like the reason that the story is implying" and "the impression one gets is that..." are entirely subjective. You are suggesting a "loss of knowledge and ability regarding the Daodan" as fact, I will argue to the contrary. And, if it is true that Diluvian interference "makes as much sense as a theory as anything else does", then by all means ''do'' hear out what I make of Oni's material -- spoiler: in my view, there isn't much of a lacuna to fill --, and just what the "anything else" might be. Simple things first, let me reiterate that even if Kerr brought some notes along (like, on a portable drive) -- and thus was easily cornered by Griffin when it was time to implant and monitor Mai's Chrysalis --, the WCG's regulations wouldn't have allowed Griffin to banalize symbiosis and to experiment on other people.<ref group=geyser>'''G.C.''' How do you plead?<br>'''J.J.''' Not guilty! My experiments are only theoretical, and completely within legal boundaries.<br>'''G.C.''' We believe you actually... created something.<br>'''J.J.''' "Created something?" Hah! ''That'' would be... irresponsible! and unethical! I would never, ever... <Stitch is revealed> ...make... more than one.</ref> Griffin is probably frustrated about this, but his hands are tied by the Directorate, and this frustration escalates to the science team.<ref>[[Quotes/Consoles#Sytropin|'''Quote:''']] Project goals remain unclear: Commander Griffin seems content to stabilize the host/Daodan symbiote for as long as possible.</ref> That's why Kerr ''et al'' can't do much besides observing Konoko's "wild" transformation, trying their best to keep it sedated, and recommending cryo as the only sensible approach. Some of those scientists would be happy to have more test subjects, but they're prisoners in this, so they don't get to call any shots. And they can't try anything too daring on Konoko, either, or they may ruin Griffin's only trump card against Muro. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::Sorry to be the bearer of accurate canon, but "secondary symbiotes" are never mentioned in Oni. All we know is that Konoko is one of two<ref group=geyser>Strictly speaking, when the sci-goon says "You...you're the other prime symbiote!", this ''may'' imply -- even if a bit of a stretch -- that Konoko is merely the only prime symbiote ''outside the sci-goon's ordinary scope'', i.e., that there may be multiple ''familiar'' prime symbiotes at the Syndicate, but only one that has been grown over at the TCTF, and thus qualifies as an "other" (unfamiliar), or even (arguably) as a "''the'' other". Also, there may have been another prime symbiote at the Syndicate, but if he's dead now (like, I dunno, from a broken neck), then that would leave only Muro as "the" prime symbiote, and Mai as "the (only) other".</ref> "prime symbiotes", as implied by [[Quotes/Speech#Is_that_a_yes?|THIS]] sci-goon and by the [[Quotes/Consoles#CHAPTER_12_._SINS_OF_THE_FATHER|Science Prison consoles]], where Konoko is labeled '''1B(h)''' -- likely because '''1A(h)''' (Muro's Chrysalis) was created first. We do not know what any of the other symbiotes are called -- "secondary" ("accessory"), "subsequent" ("post-prime"), "lesser" ("subprime"), "composite" ("reductible")... -- and we don't know a priori that "secondary" symbiotes are in any way inferior to "prime" ones. Maybe their only handicap with respect to a prime/emeritus symbiote such as Muro is that their Chrysalises were grown/implanted much later in time -- and therefore Muro, who has been working on his symbiosis for years, is confident that none of the later-implanted symbiotes will end up as a clear rival to him. In some aspects, later symbiotes may be ''more'' advanced if anything, as compared to prime/emeritus ones -- more stable, easier to implant and monitor (not needing to be implanted at a young age, and not requiring a dedicated scientific team to look after them 24/7). Developing a protocol that allows mass production and implantation of Chrysalises, without it becoming a QA/support nightmare -- that's more than enough justification for the many years of "post-prime" research that went into "Daodan core technology" (i.e., again, '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' -- whatever they are). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::Sorry to be the bearer of accurate canon, but "secondary symbiotes" are never mentioned in Oni. All we know is that Konoko is one of two<ref group=geyser>Strictly speaking, when the sci-goon says "You...you're the other prime symbiote!", this ''may'' imply -- even if a bit of a stretch -- that Konoko is merely the only prime symbiote ''outside the sci-goon's ordinary scope'', i.e., that there may be multiple ''familiar'' prime symbiotes at the Syndicate, but only one that has been grown over at the TCTF, and thus qualifies as an "other" (unfamiliar), or even (arguably) as a "''the'' other". Also, there may have been another prime symbiote at the Syndicate, but if he's dead-ish now (like, I dunno, from a broken neck), then that would leave only Muro as "the" prime symbiote, and Mai as "the (only) other".</ref> "prime symbiotes", as implied by [[Quotes/Speech#Is_that_a_yes?|THIS]] sci-goon and by the [[Quotes/Consoles#CHAPTER_12_._SINS_OF_THE_FATHER|Science Prison consoles]], where Konoko is labeled '''1B(h)''' -- likely because '''1A(h)''' (Muro's Chrysalis) was created first. We do not know what any of the other symbiotes are called -- "secondary" ("accessory"), "subsequent" ("post-prime"), "lesser" ("subprime"), "composite" ("reductible")... -- and we don't know a priori that "secondary" symbiotes are in any way inferior to "prime" ones. Maybe their only handicap with respect to a prime/emeritus symbiote such as Muro is that their Chrysalises were grown/implanted much later in time -- and therefore Muro, who has been working on his symbiosis for years, is confident that none of the later-implanted symbiotes will end up as a clear rival to him. In some aspects, later symbiotes may be ''more'' advanced if anything, as compared to prime/emeritus ones -- more stable, easier to implant and monitor (not needing to be implanted at a young age, and not requiring a dedicated scientific team to look after them 24/7). Developing a protocol that allows mass production and implantation of Chrysalises, without it becoming a QA/support nightmare -- that's more than enough justification for the many years of "post-prime" research that went into "Daodan core technology" (i.e., again, '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' -- whatever they are). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::Speaking of "Daodan core technology", here's another real-time brainstorming idea<ref group=geyser>Actually, that's only half true: it feels like well-forgotten old stuff rather than 100% new brainstorming. When I elaborated on Barabas [[Barabas#Barabas_as_power_without_alienation|HERE]], I already brought up the "paradigm of controlled technology" and implied that new symbiotes (at least Barabas) may have been deliberately limited in their abilities, e.g., by installing a barrier/interface that keeps the Chrysalis from infiltrating the brain. However, at that point I hadn't given much thought to the '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' codes, and didn't read much into "Daodan core technology", either.</ref> that just might shed some light on what's going on. Remember how Barabas looks fairly close to Imago-as-we-know-it (livid and veiny, horns, funny eyes) and has superpowers, yet doesn't seem to go into overpower, and overall seems inferior to Mai (a tradeoff, it would seem, for remaining sane, articulate, and mostly human, despite a near-complete transformation)? The same can be said of Mukade, if we don't imply some outstanding "emeritus" status for him, and pretend that he's just "another Barabas": with his own set of superpowers, more formidable as a foe than Barabas -- but also, it would seem, less stable on the mental level (with animal pulsions, mad talk, etc), and still no match for Mai (assuming he didn't lose on purpose) and no sign of Daodan overpower. Now, could it be that the "Daodan core technology" is a ''follow-up'' to prime Daodan symbiosis, which takes care of the issues identified by Kerr's colleagues, and allows the implantation of a Chrysalis to an adult, with little risk of instability and virtually no need for advanced monitoring? In this view, the word "core" does not have the basic meaning of "let's develop some generic technology for the core/essence of that process/entity that we know as Daodan" -- instead it's a qualitatively new protocol for Daodan symbiosis -- one that involves a new device or concept called "core" (or "Daodan core") --, and it's this novel "core approach" to symbiosis that (7 - '''ssob''') and (9 - '''uwlb''') are about: they are experiments with adult hosts, whose transformation is constrained/restricted/directed in some way or other, as opposed to prime symbiotes for whom it is "bound to run free". One could assume, for simplicity, that '''uwlb''' (9) is Mukade (the more powerful of the two, but also a more deeply alienated freak) and '''ssob''' (7) is Barabas (a more stable version, even if somewhat weak-ass as compared to a "prime"). Together they pave the way for mass production -- not of Muro's peers (of course not), but of ''Barabases'' -- "stabilized"/"tamed"/"constrained" symbiotes, strong enough to survive in a toxic world, but not so strong as to challenge Muro's authority -- an ideal balance of muscle and loyalty. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::Speaking of "Daodan core technology", here's another real-time brainstorming idea<ref group=geyser>Actually, that's only half true: it feels like well-forgotten old stuff rather than 100% new brainstorming. When I elaborated on Barabas [[Barabas#Barabas_as_power_without_alienation|HERE]], I already brought up the "paradigm of controlled technology" and implied that new symbiotes (at least Barabas) may have been deliberately limited in their abilities, e.g., by installing a barrier/interface that keeps the Chrysalis from infiltrating the brain. However, at that point I hadn't given much thought to the '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' codes, and didn't read much into "Daodan core technology", either.</ref> that just might shed some light on what's going on. Remember how Barabas looks fairly close to Imago-as-we-know-it (livid and veiny, horns, funny eyes) and has superpowers, yet doesn't seem to go into overpower, and overall seems inferior to Mai (a tradeoff, it would seem, for remaining sane, articulate, and mostly human, despite a near-complete transformation)? The same can be said of Mukade, if we don't imply some outstanding "emeritus" status for him, and pretend that he's just "another Barabas": with his own set of superpowers, more formidable as a foe than Barabas -- but also, it would seem, less stable on the mental level (with animal pulsions, mad talk, etc), and still no match for Mai (assuming he didn't lose on purpose) and no sign of Daodan overpower. Now, could it be that the "Daodan core technology" is a ''follow-up'' to prime Daodan symbiosis, which takes care of the issues identified by Kerr's colleagues, and allows the implantation of a Chrysalis to an adult, with little risk of instability and virtually no need for advanced monitoring? In this view, the word "core" does not have the basic meaning of "let's develop some generic technology for the core/essence of that process/entity that we know as Daodan" -- instead it's a qualitatively new protocol for Daodan symbiosis -- one that involves a new device or concept called "core" (or "Daodan core") --, and it's this novel "core approach" to symbiosis that (7 - '''ssob''') and (9 - '''uwlb''') are about: they are experiments with adult hosts, whose transformation is constrained/restricted/directed in some way or other, as opposed to prime symbiotes for whom it is "bound to run free". One could assume, for simplicity, that '''uwlb''' (9) is Mukade (the more powerful of the two, but also a more deeply alienated freak) and '''ssob''' (7) is Barabas (a more stable version, even if somewhat weak-ass as compared to a "prime"). Together they pave the way for mass production -- not of Muro's peers (of course not), but of ''Barabases'' -- "stabilized"/"tamed"/"constrained" symbiotes, strong enough to survive in a toxic world, but not so strong as to challenge Muro's authority -- an ideal balance of muscle and loyalty. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::Summing up, I don't see much in Oni canon to support the view that "11) Symbiote candidate selection and implantation" is about Muro trying to surround himself with "prime"-quality ''peer'' symbiotes (and failing for whatever reason, making do with "secondary" ones instead). Rather, whoever "sells his soul to [Muro] for a Chrysalis" (as Mai puts it) gets to be a '''"ssob"''' -- reassuringly stable mentally if not physically, even if somewhat limited with respect to Muro himself. From Muro's point of view, that's ideal, and -- judging by Barabas's devotion to Muro -- Muro's minions would have been quite content with "subprime" faculties. Closer allies may get to be '''"uwlb"'''s -- powerful in their own way, but still no match for Muro (supposedly). That of course leaves open the question of Hasegawa's whereabouts, whether he left and (if he did) how much damage he did by leaving. With the Diluvians added to the equation, an extra question would be whether they were "aware" of Muro's STURMANDERUNG and were trying to counteract it (at least the Daodan research part). My position regarding the latter is a bit like Laplace's when asked why God was never mentioned in his ''Mécanique celeste'': [[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#I_had_no_need_of_that_hypothesis|"I had no need of that hypothesis."]]<ref group=geyser>Even if Laplace didn't feel the need to mention God in his treatise about celestial bodies, he did mention a [[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#Laplace's_demon|demon]]. Unlike Maxwell's demon, Laplace's demon is huge, and is really God in disguise.</ref> --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::Summing up, I don't see much in Oni canon to support the view that "11) Symbiote candidate selection and implantation" is about Muro trying to surround himself with "prime"-quality ''peer'' symbiotes (and failing for whatever reason, making do with "secondary" ones instead). Rather, whoever "sells his soul to [Muro] for a Chrysalis" (as Mai puts it) gets to be a '''"ssob"''' -- reassuringly stable mentally if not physically, even if somewhat limited with respect to Muro himself. From Muro's point of view, that's ideal, and -- judging by Barabas's devotion to Muro -- Muro's minions would have been quite content with "subprime" faculties. Closer allies may get to be '''"uwlb"'''s -- powerful in their own way, but still no match for Muro (supposedly). That of course leaves open the question of Hasegawa's whereabouts, whether he left and (if he did) how much damage he did by leaving. With the Diluvians added to the equation, an extra question would be whether they were "aware" of Muro's STURMANDERUNG and were trying to counteract it (at least the Daodan research part). My position regarding the latter is a bit like Laplace's when asked why God was never mentioned in his ''Mécanique celeste'': [[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#I_had_no_need_of_that_hypothesis|"I had no need of that hypothesis."]]<ref group=geyser>Even if Laplace didn't feel the need to mention God in his treatise about celestial bodies, he did mention a [[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#Laplace's_demon|demon]]. Unlike Maxwell's demon, Laplace's demon is huge, and is really God in disguise.</ref> --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
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::::::::::::Not a bad suggestion about the aliens' occasional stirrings leading to an increase in phase activity. I was aware of the issue with ocean floor subduction (see [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Story]] and search for "ocean floor"). I considered it a positive, as even if there was an alien civilization down there at the time of the P-Tr boundary, it would be buried by now, thus explaining why we haven't noticed its ruins. In fact, rather than our needing to explain how all the aliens could still be alive, the continual overturning of the ocean floor could actually explain why there are so few of them left, as I desired to be the case in my story. Perhaps only some of their sleep chambers have stayed out of trouble and survived this long. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::Not a bad suggestion about the aliens' occasional stirrings leading to an increase in phase activity. I was aware of the issue with ocean floor subduction (see [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Story]] and search for "ocean floor"). I considered it a positive, as even if there was an alien civilization down there at the time of the P-Tr boundary, it would be buried by now, thus explaining why we haven't noticed its ruins. In fact, rather than our needing to explain how all the aliens could still be alive, the continual overturning of the ocean floor could actually explain why there are so few of them left, as I desired to be the case in my story. Perhaps only some of their sleep chambers have stayed out of trouble and survived this long. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::My point above is that ''all'' of Panthalassa's seabed has been buried in sediment and either subducted and molten, or exposed and eroded. So if they were indeed a civilization of builders -- as opposed to primitive organisms (my suggestion) --, then some of their architecture ''might'' have been preserved to some extent along with Silurian/Devonian/Carboniferous/Permian fossils, and that's also where we'd find "sleep chambers" if there were any -- in ruins or fossilized (depending on whether the chambers are organic or not) -- and their occupants. Maybe those chambers that weren't subducted (and ended up in fossil layers) were made of phase-enhanced concrete and steel, and thus a few Diluvians may still be able to break free, say, from [[wp:Alnif|Alnif]] (which hosts fossils of trilobites from the Cambrian all the way to the late Permian). But, no matter how you look at it, if a once great civilization went so far as to build sleep chambers that would carry them through the ages, so that they could roam the Earth once more -- and then most of them were crushed by tectonics -- that would be a rather silly way to go for those who didn't make it. Would it not? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::My point above is that ''all'' of Panthalassa's seabed has been buried in sediment and either subducted and molten, or exposed and eroded. So if they were indeed a civilization of builders -- as opposed to primitive organisms (my suggestion) --, then some of their architecture ''might'' have been preserved to some extent along with Silurian/Devonian/Carboniferous/Permian fossils, and that's also where we'd find "sleep chambers" if there were any -- in ruins or fossilized (depending on whether the chambers are organic or not) -- and their occupants. Maybe those chambers that weren't subducted (and ended up in fossil layers) were made of phase-enhanced concrete and steel, and thus a few Diluvians may still be able to break free, say, from [[wp:Alnif|Alnif]] (which hosts fossils of trilobites from the Cambrian all the way to the late Permian). But, no matter how you look at it, if a once great civilization went so far as to build sleep chambers that would carry them through the ages, so that they could roam the Earth once more -- and then most of them were crushed by tectonics -- that would be a rather silly way to go for those who didn't make it. Would it not? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::My take on this (which redeems the Diluvians' godlike intellect, if anything) is that perhaps they wouldn't have any "chambers" (there's nothing wrong with lying low on the ocean floor, with a bit of sediment on top), and that they'd have instinctive alarm calls that would periodically wake them up when a subduction or a shallowing is imminent (or when the ocean's acidity becomes critical and such), which would allow them to react and/or relocate. This implies that they'd have cycles of long stasis and brief awareness, which (if we assume "Phase proximity" to be a side effect of Diluvian activity) may coincide with some of the more enigmatic evolutionary explosions and extinctions (P-Tr being only one of those). Not having chambers (or architecture), they'd be free to relocate to anywhere on the ocean floor, as long as it's far enough from a subduction zone. As primitive beings hyperevolved from Cambrian/Ediacaran biota, they'd be mostly soft-bodied, but possibly with a carapace made of rock and sediment (not unlike [[:Caddisfly#Underwater_architects|Caddisfly larvae]]). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::My take on this (which redeems the Diluvians' godlike intellect, if anything) is that perhaps they wouldn't have any "chambers" (there's nothing wrong with lying low on the ocean floor, with a bit of sediment on top), and that they'd have instinctive alarm calls that would periodically wake them up when a subduction or a shallowing is imminent (or when the ocean's acidity becomes critical and such), which would allow them to react and/or relocate. This implies that they'd have cycles of long stasis and brief awareness, which (if we assume "Phase proximity" to be a side effect of Diluvian activity) may coincide with some of the more enigmatic evolutionary explosions and extinctions (P-Tr being only one of those). Not having chambers (or architecture), they'd be free to relocate to anywhere on the ocean floor, as long as it's far enough from a subduction zone. As primitive beings hyperevolved from Cambrian/Ediacaran biota, they'd be mostly soft-bodied, but possibly with a carapace made of rock and sediment (not unlike [[wp:Caddisfly#Underwater_architects|Caddisfly larvae]]). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
===Daodan Genesis=== | ===Daodan Genesis=== | ||