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Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions
Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events (view source)
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::::::::::::::(1) Where the hell is Hasegawa during Oni? (2) Why aren't there more symbiotes being made? How could Hasegawa's technology have been so far advanced that it hasn't been replicated over a decade later? (3) Who is Mukade? (4) Why did Muro say that Hasegawa envisioned a world where people choked on dead air and foul water, when his father seemed to want the opposite? (5) What is the nature of "phase technology"? (6) What exactly are the Screamers that came through the phase veil? (7) What is BGI? (8) What is in the Wilderness Preserves? (9) What is behind the BioCrisis? | ::::::::::::::(1) Where the hell is Hasegawa during Oni? (2) Why aren't there more symbiotes being made? How could Hasegawa's technology have been so far advanced that it hasn't been replicated over a decade later? (3) Who is Mukade? (4) Why did Muro say that Hasegawa envisioned a world where people choked on dead air and foul water, when his father seemed to want the opposite? (5) What is the nature of "phase technology"? (6) What exactly are the Screamers that came through the phase veil? (7) What is BGI? (8) What is in the Wilderness Preserves? (9) What is behind the BioCrisis? | ||
::::::::::::::These are the major gaps that come to mind. The absence of Hasegawa and the seeming loss of Daodan knowledge are the two big ones. I'm not saying that you and I haven't proposed answers to these things already, but to pretend there's no big gaps in the story is just silly. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::These are the major gaps that come to mind. The absence of Hasegawa and the seeming loss of Daodan knowledge are the two big ones. I'm not saying that you and I haven't proposed answers to these things already, but to pretend there's no big gaps in the story is just silly. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::::I've been meaning to address this one elsewhere (thanks for answering, BTW). For most of your perceived gaps, since they're listed as open questions, my replies would probably grow out of proportion rather easily, so it seems wise to take this (important) argument to a dedicated page. A few quick replies, though: 9) Per game data, the BioCrisis at the time of Oni's events is mostly about the steady rise in toxin levels, which (per game data again) is because of how Muro has infiltrated ACCs worldwide, sabotaged the "core filtration systems", and made sure that it all remained undetected for as long as possible (at least until the "Daodan core technology" was ready for mass implantation, at which point less subtle bio-terror could take over); so Oni's answer is "Muro's Sturmanderung is behind the BioCrisis, [[:Image:Act_3_.MISSION_FAILED.png|simple as that]]"; the pre-Muro and pre-ACC eco-issues are another story, but [[Quotes/Consoles#BioCrisis|THIS]] BioCrisis is almost certainly Muro-made; 7) In the trimmed Oni, BGI/Musashi is a corrupt consortium that is "joined at the hip" with Muro's Sturmanderung project (logistics, infrastructure, ACC sabotage); Muro's gambit in Chapter 2 can be a hint to BGI that their services are no longer needed and/or a threat to keep them from spilling the beans; 2) The prime symbiotes were ''prototypes''; little about them is suitable for mass production: implantation at a young age, 24/7 monitoring, potential instability, out-of-control superpowers.... Muro&Co apparently spent some time developing the "Daodan core technology" that would allow consenting adult hosts to survive in a toxic world, without turning them into uncontrollable freaks (and with minimal load on QA&Support); 4) | :::::::::::::::I've been meaning to address this one elsewhere (thanks for answering, BTW). For most of your perceived gaps, since they're listed as open questions, my replies would probably grow out of proportion rather easily, so it seems wise to take this (important) argument to a dedicated page. A few quick replies, though: 9) Per game data, the BioCrisis at the time of Oni's events is mostly about the steady rise in toxin levels, which (per game data again) is because of how Muro has infiltrated ACCs worldwide, sabotaged the "core filtration systems", and made sure that it all remained undetected for as long as possible (at least until the "Daodan core technology" was ready for mass implantation, at which point less subtle bio-terror could take over); so Oni's answer is "Muro's Sturmanderung is behind the BioCrisis, [[:Image:Act_3_.MISSION_FAILED.png|simple as that]]"; the pre-Muro and pre-ACC eco-issues are another story, but [[Quotes/Consoles#BioCrisis|THIS]] BioCrisis is almost certainly Muro-made; 7) In the trimmed Oni, BGI/Musashi is a corrupt consortium that is "joined at the hip" with Muro's Sturmanderung project (logistics, infrastructure, ACC sabotage); Muro's gambit in Chapter 2 can be a hint to BGI that their services are no longer needed and/or a threat to keep them from spilling the beans; 2) The prime symbiotes were ''prototypes''; little about them is suitable for mass production: implantation at a young age, 24/7 monitoring, potential instability, out-of-control superpowers.... Muro&Co apparently spent some time developing the "Daodan core technology" that would allow consenting adult hosts to survive in a toxic world, without turning them into uncontrollable freaks (and with minimal load on QA&Support); 4) In a way, that's close enough to Hasegawa's declared goal: people ''will'' be killed by the poisonous world, unless they embrace "hyper-evolution"; Muro is just providing some extra motivation by making sure the world ''does'' become poisonous; 3) For that matter, who is Barabas? he and Muro seem to be referencing some non-trivial events in their common past ("I'm ready for anything. You made sure of that. - There's always someone stronger. Have you forgotten? - No, I haven't. I'll be careful. - See that you are. You know the consequences of failure."), which in a way is more intriguing than Mukade's aura of mystery; in the light of the "Daodan core technology" as a part of the Sturmanderung plan, Barabas and Mukade are clearly more prototypes -- test beds for all the little "do"s and "don't"s of general-availability Daodan symbiosis; from what we see, Barabas turned out rather well with mass production in mind (strong yet docile and relatively sane); Mukade, not so much (more like a one-of-a-kind overpowered freak). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 03:32, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::Specifically on what you said up there: indeed Griffin's "pet doctors" wouldn't be able to just go and google up Wilderness lifeforms from their Science Prison quarters. On the other hand, prisoners can't blab, so if there's any classified knowledge that can help in analyzing the Daodan, then there's nothing that's keeping the Directorate from sharing that information with Griffin's science team. However, if we adopt BGI as an important faction and the WCG's true response to Muro and STURMANDERUNG, then perhaps there isn't much interest in Daodan development at all -- Kerr&Co are supposed to cautiously experiment with Konoko, and then BGI will just crush Muro and the Strikers, shutting down STURMANDERUNG and leaving Griffin with no reason to keep Konoko alive. If that's what the WCG's game is, then indeed it makes sense if Daodan scientists are left in the black about the alien/Daodan nature of the Wilderness. And of course all of that is moot if no one at the time of Oni's events is actually aware of the subtle Daodan influence on WP plants, let alone of Diluvians being the source of that influence. The best kept secrets are ones that ''no one'' knows about. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::Specifically on what you said up there: indeed Griffin's "pet doctors" wouldn't be able to just go and google up Wilderness lifeforms from their Science Prison quarters. On the other hand, prisoners can't blab, so if there's any classified knowledge that can help in analyzing the Daodan, then there's nothing that's keeping the Directorate from sharing that information with Griffin's science team. However, if we adopt BGI as an important faction and the WCG's true response to Muro and STURMANDERUNG, then perhaps there isn't much interest in Daodan development at all -- Kerr&Co are supposed to cautiously experiment with Konoko, and then BGI will just crush Muro and the Strikers, shutting down STURMANDERUNG and leaving Griffin with no reason to keep Konoko alive. If that's what the WCG's game is, then indeed it makes sense if Daodan scientists are left in the black about the alien/Daodan nature of the Wilderness. And of course all of that is moot if no one at the time of Oni's events is actually aware of the subtle Daodan influence on WP plants, let alone of Diluvians being the source of that influence. The best kept secrets are ones that ''no one'' knows about. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::As for whether Hasegawa and Kerr knew the truth -- I feel like we haven't even started debating how much those 2001 Bungie-made characters ''should'' have known about all that Diluvian business that ''we'' made up eons later ^_^ In my view, if you scrap the Diluvians ([[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#I_had_no_need_of_that_hypothesis|Laplace-]] and [[wp:Occam's_razor|Occam]]-style), then there doesn't need to be ''any'' link or similarity ''at all'' between Hasegawa's Chrysalis research and the virulent pathogens from the Contaminated Zones (whether they're poisonous bushes, pools of goo, WMD payloads, etc) -- well, no link apart from how the Contaminated Zones have an ample store of threats that the Chrysalis is supposed to counter. If that's what the Wilderness is (nothing ''too'' special), then Hasegawa merely regards it as a versatile repository of "stress or harm" (and incidentally "the nightmare that killed Jamie", hence his quest for a palliative). If, however, some of the flora in the Zones ''is'' phase-enhanced, then it's something that Hasegawa may have identified during his preliminary research -- after which he would have naturally tried to emulate some of those symbiotic properties in his own experiments (like synthetic cell-sized organelles that allow a Daodan entity to "stay online" after a first contact with a human host). Whichever it is, and whether an ancient race of symbiotes has anything to do with it, I think we both agree that the Daodan entities that exalted Konoko and Muro are two distinct phase entities, and also quite distinct from the entity/entities that may be influencing WP flora through phase-induced mutation. Therefore it might make sense that neither Hasegawa not Kerr&Co have actually drawn much of a connection. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::As for whether Hasegawa and Kerr knew the truth -- I feel like we haven't even started debating how much those 2001 Bungie-made characters ''should'' have known about all that Diluvian business that ''we'' made up eons later ^_^ In my view, if you scrap the Diluvians ([[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#I_had_no_need_of_that_hypothesis|Laplace-]] and [[wp:Occam's_razor|Occam]]-style), then there doesn't need to be ''any'' link or similarity ''at all'' between Hasegawa's Chrysalis research and the virulent pathogens from the Contaminated Zones (whether they're poisonous bushes, pools of goo, WMD payloads, etc) -- well, no link apart from how the Contaminated Zones have an ample store of threats that the Chrysalis is supposed to counter. If that's what the Wilderness is (nothing ''too'' special), then Hasegawa merely regards it as a versatile repository of "stress or harm" (and incidentally "the nightmare that killed Jamie", hence his quest for a palliative). If, however, some of the flora in the Zones ''is'' phase-enhanced, then it's something that Hasegawa may have identified during his preliminary research -- after which he would have naturally tried to emulate some of those symbiotic properties in his own experiments (like synthetic cell-sized organelles that allow a Daodan entity to "stay online" after a first contact with a human host). Whichever it is, and whether an ancient race of symbiotes has anything to do with it, I think we both agree that the Daodan entities that exalted Konoko and Muro are two distinct phase entities, and also quite distinct from the entity/entities that may be influencing WP flora through phase-induced mutation. Therefore it might make sense that neither Hasegawa not Kerr&Co have actually drawn much of a connection. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||