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Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions
Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events (view source)
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:::::::::::::::::I also beg to differ about how both Mukade and Barabas are "clearly" less stable and capable than primes, and how this necessarily hinges on Hasegawa backing out of the project. Mukade may be less stable, and Barabas may be less capable, but they're different animals -- different prototypes exploring different approaches to mass-produced Chrysalises (something Hasegawa and Kerr hadn't even started getting into!). Muro&Co are learning from these prototypes and making decisions about where to go from there. My impression (again) is that Muro would be perfectly OK with Barabas-grade minions, and in that sense there is nothing wrong with "secondary" ending up weaker than "prime". As for Mukade, he's a freak but he ain't weak, and Muro can absolutely ''not'' afford (my impression) to surround himself with Mukade-grade secondaries. As for why Muro ended up keeping Mukade around, and even entrusted him with a whole Ninja army... that's [http://geyser.oni2.net/pics/avatars/himagain.png another story]. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::::::I also beg to differ about how both Mukade and Barabas are "clearly" less stable and capable than primes, and how this necessarily hinges on Hasegawa backing out of the project. Mukade may be less stable, and Barabas may be less capable, but they're different animals -- different prototypes exploring different approaches to mass-produced Chrysalises (something Hasegawa and Kerr hadn't even started getting into!). Muro&Co are learning from these prototypes and making decisions about where to go from there. My impression (again) is that Muro would be perfectly OK with Barabas-grade minions, and in that sense there is nothing wrong with "secondary" ending up weaker than "prime". As for Mukade, he's a freak but he ain't weak, and Muro can absolutely ''not'' afford (my impression) to surround himself with Mukade-grade secondaries. As for why Muro ended up keeping Mukade around, and even entrusted him with a whole Ninja army... that's [http://geyser.oni2.net/pics/avatars/himagain.png another story]. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::Specifically on what you said up there: indeed Griffin's "pet doctors" wouldn't be able to just go and google up Wilderness lifeforms from their Science Prison quarters. On the other hand, prisoners can't blab, so if there's any classified knowledge that can help in analyzing the Daodan, then there's nothing that's keeping the Directorate from sharing that information with Griffin's science team. However, if we adopt BGI as an important faction and the WCG's true response to Muro and STURMANDERUNG, then perhaps there isn't much interest in Daodan development at all -- Kerr&Co are supposed to cautiously experiment with Konoko, and then BGI will just crush Muro and the Strikers, shutting down STURMANDERUNG and leaving Griffin with no reason to keep Konoko alive. If that's what the WCG's game is, then indeed it makes sense if Daodan scientists are left in the black about the alien/Daodan nature of the Wilderness. And of course all of that is moot if no one at the time of Oni's events is actually aware of the subtle Daodan influence on WP plants, let alone of Diluvians being the source of that influence. The best kept secrets are ones that ''no one'' knows about. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::Specifically on what you said up there: indeed Griffin's "pet doctors" wouldn't be able to just go and google up Wilderness lifeforms from their Science Prison quarters. On the other hand, prisoners can't blab, so if there's any classified knowledge that can help in analyzing the Daodan, then there's nothing that's keeping the Directorate from sharing that information with Griffin's science team. However, if we adopt BGI as an important faction and the WCG's true response to Muro and STURMANDERUNG, then perhaps there isn't much interest in Daodan development at all -- Kerr&Co are supposed to cautiously experiment with Konoko, and then BGI will just crush Muro and the Strikers, shutting down STURMANDERUNG and leaving Griffin with no reason to keep Konoko alive. If that's what the WCG's game is, then indeed it makes sense if Daodan scientists are left in the black about the alien/Daodan nature of the Wilderness. And of course all of that is moot if no one at the time of Oni's events is actually aware of the subtle Daodan influence on WP plants, let alone of Diluvians being the source of that influence. The best kept secrets are ones that ''no one'' knows about. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::As for whether Hasegawa and Kerr knew the truth -- I feel like we haven't even started debating how much those 2001 Bungie-made characters ''should'' have known about all that Diluvian business that ''we'' made up eons later ^_^ In my view, if you scrap the Diluvians ([[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#I_had_no_need_of_that_hypothesis|Laplace-]] and [[wp:Occam's_razor|Occam]]-style), then there doesn't need to be ''any'' link or similarity ''at all'' between Hasegawa's Chrysalis research and the virulent pathogens from the Contaminated Zones (whether they're poisonous bushes, pools of goo, WMD payloads, etc) -- well, no link apart from how the Contaminated Zones have an ample store of threats that the Chrysalis is supposed to counter. If that's what the Wilderness is (nothing ''too'' special), then Hasegawa merely regards it as a versatile repository of "stress or harm" (and incidentally "the nightmare that killed Jamie", hence his quest for a palliative). If, however, some of the flora in the Zones ''is'' phase-enhanced, then it's something that Hasegawa may have identified during his preliminary research -- after which he would have naturally tried to emulate some of those symbiotic properties in his own experiments (like synthetic cell-sized organelles that allow a Daodan entity to "stay online" after a first contact with a human host). Whichever it is, and whether an ancient race of symbiotes has anything to do with it, I think we both agree that the Daodan entities that exalted Konoko and Muro are two distinct phase entities, and also quite distinct from the entity/entities that may be influencing WP flora through phase-induced mutation. Therefore it might make sense that neither Hasegawa | :::::::::::::As for whether Hasegawa and Kerr knew the truth -- I feel like we haven't even started debating how much those 2001 Bungie-made characters ''should'' have known about all that Diluvian business that ''we'' made up eons later ^_^ In my view, if you scrap the Diluvians ([[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#I_had_no_need_of_that_hypothesis|Laplace-]] and [[wp:Occam's_razor|Occam]]-style), then there doesn't need to be ''any'' link or similarity ''at all'' between Hasegawa's Chrysalis research and the virulent pathogens from the Contaminated Zones (whether they're poisonous bushes, pools of goo, WMD payloads, etc) -- well, no link apart from how the Contaminated Zones have an ample store of threats that the Chrysalis is supposed to counter. If that's what the Wilderness is (nothing ''too'' special), then Hasegawa merely regards it as a versatile repository of "stress or harm" (and incidentally "the nightmare that killed Jamie", hence his quest for a palliative). If, however, some of the flora in the Zones ''is'' phase-enhanced, then it's something that Hasegawa may have identified during his preliminary research -- after which he would have naturally tried to emulate some of those symbiotic properties in his own experiments (like synthetic cell-sized organelles that allow a Daodan entity to "stay online" after a first contact with a human host). Whichever it is, and whether an ancient race of symbiotes has anything to do with it, I think we both agree that the Daodan entities that exalted Konoko and Muro are two distinct phase entities, and also quite distinct from the entity/entities that may be influencing WP flora through phase-induced mutation. Therefore it might make sense that neither Hasegawa nor Kerr&Co have actually drawn much of a connection. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::Short answer: I think it's a good idea to paint Griffin, Kerr and (initially) Hasegawa and Jamie as being ignorant of the full picture, whatever that picture includes. I see no reason why they *wouldn't* be ignorant. Hasegawa's later discoveries about the true nature of the BioCrisis, or the real agenda of the WCG, or the existence of the Daomen, etc. would provide ample explanation for his sudden disappearance ("No, it's all wrong! My work might do more harm than good! I've got to learn more…"). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::Short answer: I think it's a good idea to paint Griffin, Kerr and (initially) Hasegawa and Jamie as being ignorant of the full picture, whatever that picture includes. I see no reason why they *wouldn't* be ignorant. Hasegawa's later discoveries about the true nature of the BioCrisis, or the real agenda of the WCG, or the existence of the Daomen, etc. would provide ample explanation for his sudden disappearance ("No, it's all wrong! My work might do more harm than good! I've got to learn more…"). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::I'd actually like to back up to a higher level and address what I think is your largest single question, which is, "Why complicate things when it's clear that Hardy just intended the Preserves to be waste dumps?" I felt it was necessary to diverge from this approach precisely because of the derivative feeling of the "social commentary". Industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada. Been there, done that dystopia. Likewise, if Oni's world was said to be warming dangerously, I would find some way to subvert that narrative into a more interesting, less "concern of the moment" type of problem. Star Trek IV was entertaining but nowadays nobody has any idea what it's going on about with all that whale stuff. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::I'd actually like to back up to a higher level and address what I think is your largest single question, which is, "Why complicate things when it's clear that Hardy just intended the Preserves to be waste dumps?" I felt it was necessary to diverge from this approach precisely because of the derivative feeling of the "social commentary". Industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada. Been there, done that dystopia. Likewise, if Oni's world was said to be warming dangerously, I would find some way to subvert that narrative into a more interesting, less "concern of the moment" type of problem. Star Trek IV was entertaining but nowadays nobody has any idea what it's going on about with all that whale stuff. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | ||