Talk:Pain: Difference between revisions

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-[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain Pain] on Wikipedia
+[[wp:Pain|Pain]] on Wikipedia
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 :And if she doesn't wince or scream or lose her train of thought, what kind of pain is that?
 :Not "unbearable" pain, definitely. Ignorable pain? Maybe not. I'd say ''familiar'' pain.
-::(check out [http://www.depechemode.se/A/a_pain_that_im_used_to.htm A pain that I'm used to] by Depeche Mode
+::(check out [http://www.depechemode.se/A/a_pain_that_im_used_to.htm A pain that I'm used to] by Depeche Mode)
-::(or [http://unit.bjork.com/specials/gh/SUB-14/index.htm Play dead] by Björk)
+::(or [http://web.archive.org/web/20121214133412/http://unit.bjork.com/specials/gh/SUB-14/index.htm Play dead] by Björk)
 ::(or early, saturnine stuff by Tears for Fears)
 :You said it yourself : resilience and pain levels are closely connected. What then?
 :Suffering can not be quantified on its own : it's all about how it affects the organism.
-:You can't define an absolute scale of pain and suffering that applies across individuals.
+:An absolute scale of pain and suffering, merely extrapolating from the one of "normal" people to "higher" degrees, just doesn't exist.
 :Also see the older piece of private correspondence I included below.
 :(it's uncomfortably down-to-earth, maybe, but at least it's consistent)
 ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 20:44, 30 November 2006 (CET)
 :As for how "pain is a big inconvenient for a resilient body"... Precisely.
-:Either you reject the whole idea that the Daodan is an autoevolutionary upgrade.
+:Either you reject the whole idea that the [[Daodan#Added value|Daodan]] is an autoevolutionary upgrade.
 :Or you have to tell me what kind of sadomasochistic upgrade that is :
-::making you resilient and not keep the pain in proportion with the body's limits.
+::making you resilient and not keeping the pain in proportion with your body's limits.
-:"we are not referring to torture"? Are you sure? Have a look at what you have...
+:"we are not referring to torture"? Are you ''sure''? Take a look at what you have...
-:You want Konoko to experience extreme pain because of nowhere-near-lethal stress.
+:You want Konoko to experience dramatic pain because of nowhere-near-lethal stress. Fact.
-:Doesn't that mean "generating the highest amount of pain with the lowest level of physical stress."?
+:Doesn't that mean "generating the highest amount of pain with the lowest level of physical stress"?
-:So your Daodan is balancing on the verge of both sadism and masochism (auto-torture).
+:So, looks like your Daodan is balancing on the verge of both sadism and masochism (auto-torture).
-:I can't see a consistent plotwise point for such a behavior.
+:I can't see much of a consistent point for such self-inflicted pain, plotwise.
 ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 20:44, 30 November 2006 (CET)
-:Self-inflicted pain is quite a different story. I guess we could develop on that (if you insist).
+:Self-inflicted pain is quite a different story. We ''could'' develop on that (if you insist).
 :Among the possible openings are various forms of social/psychological disorder.
 :A special case is that of religious rituals (fasting, self-flogging, etc).
-:It's a tricky topic to (aren't we call ascetic mortification "deranged"?).
+:It's a tricky topic to tackle (aren't we calling ascetic mortification "deranged"?).
-:But it's worth the shot to look at, e.g., [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_teresa St Teresa]
+:But it's worth the shot to look at, e.g., [[wp:Teresa_of_Ávila|St Teresa]]
 ::there's the killer quote "Lord, either let me suffer or let me die"
-::and there's [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecstasy_of_St_Theresa THIS], of course
+::and there's [[wp:Ecstasy_of_Saint_Teresa|THIS]], of course
 :That would bring us to what Oni's Konoko experiences after a boss fight...
 :If the terms "climax" and "orgasm" are uncomfortable, how about "ecstasy"?
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 :And then, after a couple dozen daring escapes through the sewers :
 ::"Here goes the last pair of pants... S##T, do you have any idea how much that itches?"
-:(that was a reference to Jeebs from [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Men_in_Black#Dialogue Men in Black])
+:(that was a reference to Jeebs from [[wikiquote:Men in Black (1997 film)|Men in Black]])
 :I'm not calling it pleasant. Pretty unpleasant, maybe. But in a familiar way : routine.
 :Now to the compromise. Where I agree with you, Guido, is :
@@ Line 108: / Line 108: @@
 :That is, during moments when she experiences ''new'', ''unprecedented'' forms of stress.
 :Same for Mukade and his broken neck : unprecedented + nearly lethal = utterly painful
-:I'll grant you that, and you'll let her ''not'' wince after an umpteenth bunch of fleshwounds.
+:I'll grant you that, and you'll let her ''not'' writhe in agony after an umpteenth bunch of fleshwounds.
 :Deal?
 ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 20:44, 30 November 2006 (CET)
+:In just a few words : it's "pushing the limits" that's ''really'' painful.
+:I guess you could compare Daodan to professional sports :
+::in a matter of years, through intensive training, people can dramatically
+::increase the physical performance their body can deliver.
+:A professional sportsperson can endure stress that would kill a normal person,
+::stress that would kill ''them'', had they not been through gradual training.
+:All of the intermediate forms of stress have become accessible to them, too.
+:Here, pain is definitely relative to the body's ''actual'' limits, not to what they used to be.
+:Think marathon or something. How much does a pro runner suffer while "jogging"?
+:How much does a pro liftweighter suffer when working out with "small" weights?
+:Definitely, it's ''pushing the limits'' that's painful, as opposed to routine.
+:Think about it : does the Daodan ''really'' have to stigmatize itself?
+::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:47, 1 December 2006 (CET)
+:Another thought : could we be talking about [[Shinatama]] rather than Mai?
+:The relationship with pain you suggest for Mai is IMO pretty close to [[Shinatama#Pain and death|THIS]]...
+::(added long ago, largely underdeveloped)
+:In the light of what you proposed for the Daodan, I'd like to draw your attention to this :
+::Shinatama can't train or adapt the way Konoko does. And she can withstand point-blank nuking by initial design.
+:What was built into her was a ''formal'' scale of pain. It coincides with human pain over the range we know.
+:And from there it's somehow extrapolated all the way to the top. As for thresholds, there are none (to Muro's delight).
+:And there you have it : the "absolute" pain scale you fancied in humans. And the "power to suffer".
+:Also check out (again) the essay on Zombie Shinatama by our mutual friend :
+::it revolves around pain and how Shinatama relates to it.
+::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 16:02, 1 December 2006 (CET)
 ----
 ----
-;Old comment on the impassive fighters of fighters
+;Old comment on the impassive faces of fighters
 Not sure it fits into the debate (it wasn't Daodan- or Konoko-related, strictly speaking).
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 ::Healing = a subtle balance of (intermittent) pain and relief leading (or not) to recovery.
 ----
+[[Category:Oni 2]]