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Talk:BioCrisis: Difference between revisions
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:Originally from '''Restless_Souls/Reconstruction/Global_development''' | |||
:Please translate this into English. Expand and cross-link appropriately. | :Please translate this into English. Expand and cross-link appropriately. | ||
:Allow for alternatives. Oh, and don't read too much into the manual ^_^ | :Allow for alternatives. Oh, and don't read too much into the manual ^_^ | ||
| Line 22: | Line 22: | ||
:And the hasty points, ok, lets see: | :And the hasty points, ok, lets see: | ||
;We know from at least four sources (console reports, Fuji article, airport poster and Hasegawa's diary) that the smog (smog, really??? ''geyser'') | ;We know from at least four sources (console reports, Fuji article, airport poster and Hasegawa's diary) that the smog (smog, really??? ''geyser'') | ||
:Smog. Yes... We could say polluted air but that's what smog is, too. In Oni's case most of the population is concentrated in cities, and that is where smog gets [[ | :Smog. Yes... We could say polluted air but that's what smog is, too. In Oni's case most of the population is concentrated in cities, and that is where smog gets [[wp:Smog#Health_effects|''heavy'' and poisonous]]. Now I wonder if the quarantine zones aren't cleaner. ^_^ | ||
::;paradox-01 | ::;paradox-01 | ||
:When I read "smog", I inevitably think of Victorian London. Or Mexico. Or Beijing. Fumes blocking the daylight. | :When I read "smog", I inevitably think of Victorian London. Or Mexico. Or Beijing. Fumes blocking the daylight. | ||
:It is certainly tempting to see smog in Oni, but I'd make a difference between ''clean'' air and ''clear'' air. | :It is certainly tempting to see smog in Oni, but I'd make a difference between ''clean'' air and ''clear'' air. | ||
:The city air in Oni is definitely not ''clean'', at least not all the time, and the air's [[ | :The city air in Oni is definitely not ''clean'', at least not all the time, and the air's [[wikt:toxicity|toxicity]] is an issue. | ||
:It is, however, remarkably ''clear'', even though late autumn is not the best period to scan a modern city for smog. | :It is, however, remarkably ''clear'', even though late autumn is not the best period to scan a modern city for smog. | ||
:Note the presence of ''solar panels'' (of course they might make as little plotwise sense as other furniture). | :Note the presence of ''solar panels'' (of course they might make as little plotwise sense as other furniture). | ||
| Line 35: | Line 35: | ||
:Nice... I mixed facts with my own interpretation. Seems that I wrote this without having a second look onto the material. | :Nice... I mixed facts with my own interpretation. Seems that I wrote this without having a second look onto the material. | ||
:Mai "blew the processors" by "overloading the generators". And then I remembered "something" in the ACC report about toxins which will arise by an "accident or something"... | :Mai "blew the processors" by "overloading the generators". And then I remembered "something" in the ACC report about toxins which will arise by an "accident or something"... | ||
:In fact (i.e., in a not re-interpreted storyline like [[Oni2:Truth Number Zero|Truth Number Zero]]) [[Muro]]'s men sabotaged the [[ACC]]s so that they'd spread out "Class 4 airborne toxins" after the [[ | :In fact (i.e., in a not re-interpreted storyline like [[Oni2:Truth Number Zero|Truth Number Zero]]) [[Muro]]'s men sabotaged the [[ACC]]s so that they'd spread out "Class 4 airborne toxins" after the [[STURMANDERUNG]] pulse was sent. | ||
:Yeah, I think that's what happened. So, please, don't hit me or "something". ;-) | :Yeah, I think that's what happened. So, please, don't hit me or "something". ;-) | ||
::;paradox-01 | ::;paradox-01 | ||
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::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST) | ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST) | ||
:The meaning of both informative consoles in {{C7}} starts and stops with Mai's interpretations. | :The meaning of both informative consoles in {{C7}} starts and stops with Mai's interpretations. | ||
:She read about the | :She read about the inversion process, and ''thought'' that's what Sturmanderung was about. | ||
:She also read the ACCs were being tested tier by tier, and used that knowledge to blow them up. | :She also read the ACCs were being tested tier by tier, and used that knowledge to blow them up. | ||
:Her intuition about Sturmanderung is "confirmed" by Muro's lines during their final encounter. | :Her intuition about Sturmanderung is "confirmed" by Muro's lines during their final encounter. | ||
:Still, ''any'' further assumptions are speculations, be it [[Oni2:Truth Number Zero|Truth Number Zero]] or [[ | :Still, ''any'' further assumptions are speculations, be it [[Oni2:Truth Number Zero|Truth Number Zero]] or [[Restless_Souls|your story]]. | ||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST) | ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST) | ||
;Of course "we don't know that for sure", but with the upcoming global catastrophe (who can see it coming??? ''geyser'') | ;Of course "we don't know that for sure", but with the upcoming global catastrophe (who can see it coming??? ''geyser'') | ||
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:In short, your version is definitely not "Apocalypse Now". Everyone has lots of time to spare. | :In short, your version is definitely not "Apocalypse Now". Everyone has lots of time to spare. | ||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST) | ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST) | ||
:Heh. Time is relative.^^ But in this case I would say "a lot of time". | |||
:My current ''image'' of the '''time frame''' is that the toxic air will be fully share-out in 3 day - reaching ''every corner'' of the world. (Then 1 day later first symptoms. Refugee will try to enter the big city. After 2 more: heavy symptoms and diseases, and panic because of decreasing resources, etc.) | |||
::;paradox-01 | |||
:Note, however, that the explosions are likely to vaporize and spread some toxins right away. | :Note, however, that the explosions are likely to vaporize and spread some toxins right away. | ||
:The [[ACC]]s produce clean air and ''very concentrated toxic waste'' (vats in {{C8}}) | :The [[ACC]]s produce clean air and ''very concentrated toxic waste'' (vats in {{C8}}) | ||
| Line 63: | Line 66: | ||
:So I don't think that the time scales will be "politically manageable" by the WCG or anyone... | :So I don't think that the time scales will be "politically manageable" by the WCG or anyone... | ||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST) | ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST) | ||
'''[[Talk:Daodan|Daodan talk moved]]''' | |||
: | |||
;wow, are you reading Wikipedia upside down??? | ;wow, are you reading Wikipedia upside down??? | ||
:Maybe I just picked the right ones - and yes: the German wiki is smaller. Take a look [ | :Maybe I just picked the right ones - and yes: the German wiki is smaller. Take a look [[wp:de:Neue_Weltordnung_(Verschwörungstheorie)|HERE]] | ||
::;paradox-01 | ::;paradox-01 | ||
:Erm. | :Erm. Pax Americana is not really a conspiracy theory to me (then again, I'm a certified conspiracy theorist, so never mind ''me''). | ||
:The WCG is a logical continuation of Pax Americana, so I'd suggest you get familiar with it, rather than go for politically correct substitutes. | :The WCG is a logical continuation of Pax Americana, so I'd suggest you get familiar with it, rather than go for politically correct substitutes. | ||
:Of course the German wikipedia is smaller, but you had me fearing that its articles were ''more biased'' as well (e.g., anti-US). | :Of course the German wikipedia is smaller, but you had me fearing that its articles were ''more biased'' as well (e.g., anti-US). | ||
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---- | ---- | ||
;Present | ;Present | ||
:We know from at least four sources (console reports, [[Talk:Hasegawa|Fuji article]], airport poster and Hasegawa's diary) that | :We know from at least four sources (console reports, [[Talk:Hasegawa|Fuji article]], airport poster and Hasegawa's diary) that polluted air and/or quarantined zones had existed before the Big Bang (abnormal [[STURMANDERUNG]] pulse set off by Mai). The causes and direct consequences aren't mentioned. We can speculate that the citizens are often required to wear "[[:Image:TXMPPOSTER1.png|HAPEMASK]]" [[wp:Respirator|respirators]] as protection against airborne pollutants and that the natural environment is contaminated with [[wikt:virulent|virulent]] pathogens (toxins/bacteria/viruses). | ||
:152ppm was the last measured [[ | :152ppm was the last measured [[wp:Dioxin|dioxin]] level in the [[Quotes/Consoles/level_19c|Sturmanderung report]]; after the Big Bang the pollution and their symptoms will be much more and stronger. | ||
:According to an [[ACC]] report "Class 4 airborne toxins" can arise | :According to an [[ACC]] report "Class 4 airborne toxins" can arise when inverting the cleaning process. Whatever this means isn't clear - at least, Konoko talked about "The dead and the dying now line the streets" in the outro, so the effect must be enormous. | ||
;Past | ;Past | ||
:Of course "[[Kerr|we don't know that for sure]]", but with the upcoming global catastrophe (who can see it coming??? [[User:Geyser|geyser]]) there is bound to be a public outcry demanding answers as for why this happened (sorry, at what moment??? [[User:Geyser|geyser]]). And most probably the story started far in the past. | :Of course "[[Kerr|we don't know that for sure]]", but with the upcoming global catastrophe (who can see it coming??? [[User:Geyser|geyser]]) there is bound to be a public outcry demanding answers as for why this happened (sorry, at what moment??? [[User:Geyser|geyser]]). And most probably the story started far in the past. | ||
:The manual states that the government is only interested in a "centralization of wealth", hence in a "concentrated population" ("pull" factor), and a polluted environment was helpful in that respect (as a "push factor"). I think this was only made possible by a war - the WCG foundation war (an exceptional "pull" factor). | :The manual states that the government is only interested in a "centralization of wealth", hence in a "concentrated population" ("pull" factor), and a polluted environment was helpful in that respect (as a "push factor"). I think this was only made possible by a war - the WCG foundation war (an exceptional "pull" factor). | ||
:Parallel quotes (possibly applicable to the genesis of [[Oni2:META|META]]) are „If the truth were told, it was all about the money“ and „techno-phobia“. | :Parallel quotes (possibly applicable to the genesis of [[Oni2:META|META]]) are „If the truth were told, it was all about the money“ and „techno-phobia“. | ||
:Hence the thesis | :Hence the thesis that it's the economy that runs the government, not the other way round. | ||
:(NEW: which would have [[Oni2:META|META]] say "vote us in and we'll do it better"...) | :(NEW: which would have [[Oni2:META|META]] say "vote us in and we'll do it better"...) | ||
:(See also paragraph "New World Order" below) | :(See also paragraph "New World Order" below) | ||
| Line 154: | Line 104: | ||
:If no diplomatic solution can be found, then the WCG and the Syndicate will try to tear each other into pieces. The fact that the population suffers the most will make it all the easier to manipulate and to set against the "enemy". He who has convinced the masses has won. | :If no diplomatic solution can be found, then the WCG and the Syndicate will try to tear each other into pieces. The fact that the population suffers the most will make it all the easier to manipulate and to set against the "enemy". He who has convinced the masses has won. | ||
:This raises the following contradictory trends: | :This raises the following contradictory trends: | ||
::1) WCG is responsible for originally creating the | ::1) WCG is responsible for originally creating the pollution or for not dealing with it, and the Syndicate - for making it increase. (as a bonus, the WCG could brand [[Sturmanderung]] as a genocide with a neonazi background) (OMG... [[User:Geyser|geyser]]) | ||
::2) In the middle of the general panic the Syndicate can promote the [[Daodan]] Chrysalis as the only chance of survival. ("[[Kerr|We don't know for sure]]" how strong the contamination will be. So the Syndicate might be bluffing, not unlike the WCG's use of "techno-phobia".) | ::2) In the middle of the general panic the Syndicate can promote the [[Daodan]] Chrysalis as the only chance of survival. ("[[Kerr|We don't know for sure]]" how strong the contamination will be. So the Syndicate might be bluffing, not unlike the WCG's use of "techno-phobia".) | ||
:(NEW: The WCG itself can say that the Daodan Chrysalis is just part two of the (neonazi) Sturmanderung - converting the survivors into ''genetically clean and better humans''. (übermensch, eh??? [[User:Geyser|geyser]]) (actually, that's not a lie... [[User:Geyser|geyser]]) | :(NEW: The WCG itself can say that the Daodan Chrysalis is just part two of the (neonazi) Sturmanderung - converting the survivors into ''genetically clean and better humans''. (übermensch, eh??? [[User:Geyser|geyser]]) (actually, that's not a lie... [[User:Geyser|geyser]]) | ||
| Line 167: | Line 117: | ||
:After browsing Wikipedia a lot on those two aspects the statements in the material I found kept drifting in the direction of conspiracy theories. I'd like to stay away from that. Oni eigenes Material und dazugehörige Interpretationen sowie vereinzelte Fakten (z.B. aus Arte’s Themenabend: Why We Fight) sollen hierfür genügen. | :After browsing Wikipedia a lot on those two aspects the statements in the material I found kept drifting in the direction of conspiracy theories. I'd like to stay away from that. Oni eigenes Material und dazugehörige Interpretationen sowie vereinzelte Fakten (z.B. aus Arte’s Themenabend: Why We Fight) sollen hierfür genügen. | ||
:So I decided to concentrate on using Oni's own material and directly relevant interpretations, as well as isolated facts (e.g., "why we fight" and "Söldner - ein Beruf mit Zukunft", documentaries from Arte's Theme Night). | :So I decided to concentrate on using Oni's own material and directly relevant interpretations, as well as isolated facts (e.g., "why we fight" and "Söldner - ein Beruf mit Zukunft", documentaries from Arte's Theme Night). | ||
:(NEW: The interpretation and final use is a different story but I will also try my best not to overdo it. | :(NEW: The interpretation and final use is a different story but I will also try my best not to overdo it. :) | ||
:(wow, are you reading Wikipedia upside down??? [[User:Geyser|geyser]]) (or maybe the German Wikipedia is much less encyclopedical than the English one??? [[User:Geyser|geyser]]) | :(wow, are you reading Wikipedia upside down??? [[User:Geyser|geyser]]) (or maybe the German Wikipedia is much less encyclopedical than the English one??? [[User:Geyser|geyser]]) | ||
| Line 189: | Line 139: | ||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 03:44, 4 October 2007 (CEST) | ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 03:44, 4 October 2007 (CEST) | ||
:On a side note: fewer people means less pollution, ultimately. Regeneration (like in [[Nausicaa]] or [[Ergo Proxy]]). | :On a side note: fewer people means less pollution, ultimately. Regeneration (like in [[Nausicaa]] or [[Ergo Proxy]]). | ||
:However, if survivors concentrate, there's a risk of overpollution in the immediate vicinity (sorta like [[Ecoban]]). | :However, if survivors concentrate, there's a risk of overpollution in the immediate vicinity (sorta like [[Wonderful Days|Ecoban]]). | ||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 03:51, 4 October 2007 (CEST) | ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 03:51, 4 October 2007 (CEST) | ||
:Oh, note that I've made the console quotes conveniently transcludable. May add a few features later. | :Oh, note that I've made the console quotes conveniently transcludable. May add a few features later. | ||
| Line 200: | Line 150: | ||
:Same goes for some of the points you responded to up there (BTW, rather create new sections down here). | :Same goes for some of the points you responded to up there (BTW, rather create new sections down here). | ||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST) | ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST) | ||
:We should see this as an temporary place for discussion (the topics are related). After finishing it will be placed somewhere else or deleted. | |||
::[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 19:29, 17 October 2007 (CEST) | |||
;the official election was planned to be a fake. They declare war on the WCG but work secretly together. The people should believe "democracy is still alive". | ;the official election was planned to be a fake. They declare war on the WCG but work secretly together. The people should believe "democracy is still alive". | ||
:Democracy is dead. In Oni's world there's as much "freedom" and "democracy" as in today's [[Singapore]] | :Democracy is dead. In Oni's world there's as much "freedom" and "democracy" as in today's [[Singapore]] | ||
| Line 211: | Line 163: | ||
:Hard to think of a less appropriate time to organize (or fake) an electoral campaign... | :Hard to think of a less appropriate time to organize (or fake) an electoral campaign... | ||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST) | ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST) | ||
:About democracy ... ok, you convinced me. | |||
:: (.. today I'm thinking loud.) | |||
::Then again: what could be dis-/advantages in comparing faked democracy and a dictatorship? ... not important, never mind. ^^ | |||
::Well, I think the global community simply don't tolerate to many dictatorships... And "single-party states" like China and Singapore seems to be ''more okay''. Ironical this states are part of the UN. | |||
::However: this means that Big Brother (government as total) will choose some Little Brothers (WCG members) to be scapegoats. After ''cleaning up'' they (Syndicate / META / ...) can introduce new politics / ideology / "whatever". | |||
::But now the new BioCrisis would make it hard to control even one region. If the people goes onto the street it is less steps away from panic and lootings, or civil war because of the breaking political structure (a chance for taking down bigbro.) | |||
::So what can ''we'' do to avoid this? We talked about the Daodan .. it has virus features. I wonder if they couldn't spread it into the air over the cities. Actually: no, I cannot imagine this case... The DC has also to do with implantation. | |||
::Could the WGC say: we have a solution but it isn't enough? Will they hide them-self behind the TCTF / army? How many deserters among them will appear, and then the crowd in fury will overrun them? Are we really going to create an absolute horror scenario? | |||
::(We might move this part to the WCG talk page.) | |||
:And pollutions and it effects: please see my reply about "the time frame". | |||
::[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 19:29, 17 October 2007 (CEST) | |||
:"But if a diplomatic solution can be found, then I had called it META." ''You'' called it META? ;) | :"But if a diplomatic solution can be found, then I had called it META." ''You'' called it META? ;) | ||
::(maybe you meant "But if a diplomatic solution can be found, then I ''would'' call it META"?) | ::(maybe you meant "But if a diplomatic solution can be found, then I ''would'' call it META"?) | ||
| Line 219: | Line 182: | ||
:Even if there are moderate factions on either side, can they really stop Muro's Strikers? | :Even if there are moderate factions on either side, can they really stop Muro's Strikers? | ||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST) | ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST) | ||
:(META. Meta means for me also "übergreifend". I was thinking of it as something ambiguous.) | |||
:When Muro's Strikers are dangerous to everybody including BGI a possible step could be cooperation on the execution force base. | |||
:Taking own troops (semi-good hitmen, sniper mercenaries), TCTF, army, and even Mai. | |||
:In case on success WCG heads will become scapegoats and the old Syndicate choose a new hierarchy for them. | |||
:(The deal with Mai will also negated. -- But this is just an idea and won't happen. Because of .. well .. we don't want an WCG with Syndicate heads. ^^ | |||
::[[User:Paradox-01|Paradox-01]] 19:29, 17 October 2007 (CEST) | |||
---- | |||
---- | |||
:Sorry for not having written earlier. These days I find that elaborating Oni 2 is not the most urgent priority. | |||
:What is needed right now is an entertaining rehash of Oni's resources: the Seventh Anniversary Edition thing. | |||
:Please try not to insert thoughts in the middle of previous "posts". It makes the talk (even) less logical. | |||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 20:35, 18 November 2007 (CET) | |||
:If I understand correctly, the overwhelming power of the Strikers could motivate ''a coalition against them''. | |||
*I agree that it is appealing to imagine a few individuals or organisations with enough power to fight back. | |||
:For example, BGI could have a few strongholds that it might attempt to secure against everyone else. | |||
:Or there could be civilian "heroes": small groups of survivors fighting to protect their supplies. | |||
:But, in my opinion, no one will want to confront the Strikers just to protect the interests of the WCG. | |||
*One problem is that the forces that are supposed to oppose the Strikers were already there during Oni. | |||
:Whatever kept them from intervening? and why would they become so much more determined and organized? | |||
:In my opinion there is no entity that can oppose the Strikers on strategic scales. | |||
:"TCTF, army, and even Mai" will not be able to fight back the Strikers ''and'' to take care of the mob. | |||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 20:35, 18 November 2007 (CET) | |||
:"We don't want of a WCG with Syndicate heads"... heck, why not? That's the only thing that can happen. | |||
:The takeover is ambiguous. There's no real "scapegoat" here, and no actual "plan for world domination". | |||
:Only a WCG taken over by Strikers has enough credibility and power to "handle" Oni's aftermath. IMO. | |||
:As I said before, both the WCG and the Strikers can see the victory as their own. It's a synergy. | |||
:As for the people: the new entity will be popular if it acts in the direction of disaster relief. | |||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 20:35, 18 November 2007 (CET) | |||
:To your extra points on democracy above. Of course this is totally off-topic here. We should probably make a page called "Winter Number Zero" for the aftermath talk. | |||
:When you say "the global community simply doesn't tolerate dictatorships", as I said, it's best not to think of what's being called democracy in today's world... ;) | |||
:Dictatorships have ''always'' been OK in times of trouble. Even the oh-so-democratic USA would switch to martial law in a heartbeat if there was major global s##t. | |||
:To fake a democracy requires enormous financial resources and few other priorities than to preserve a relatively placid social status quo. In times of peace it works. | |||
:Martial law or dictatorship make things easier since you can bypass the more subtle propaganda, and do what you need to do, without having to conceal or explain it. | |||
:Thus, you don't have to go to the trouble of presenting your enemies as scapegoats to the public, or at least you can do so in much blunter ways than in democracy. | |||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 20:35, 18 November 2007 (CET) | |||
:"the new BioCrisis would make it hard to control even one region" - that's correct. | |||
:"So what can ''we'' do to avoid this?" - to avoid what exactly? Anarchy? Well, we can do META :) | |||
:If the most powerful factions spend time fighting each other, the public will be out of control. | |||
:If there's a quick victory and an overwhelming authority (at local scale), there will be order. | |||
:Propaganda alone can not contain the crowd. Neither can the Daodan (it's awfully unethical). | |||
:What can work is a series of measures towards disaster relief backed up by dissuasive force. | |||
:But that can only work if the resources are secured, and if there's no major enemy to fight. | |||
:In that sense, the best outcome for everyone is a quick end to the WCG-Syndicate struggle. | |||
:Whether it's a formal agreement or, more likely, a bloody coup, it will generate stability. | |||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 20:35, 18 November 2007 (CET) | |||
[[Category:Oni 2]][[Category:Events]] | |||