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| __TOC__
| | '''Talk page archives''': [[/Archive1|#1]] (2008); [[/Archive2|#2]] (2009-2014) |
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| ==General Talk== | | ==Re: Banner== |
| ;Chapters and added value
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| :Flipping through the stuff as I updated the page layout, I was really impressed with the quality of some of the "added value".
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| :Keep up the good work, dude. I'm sure the chapter pages will grow (just a little bit) to be brilliant appetizers for all the rest.
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| ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 03:38, 18 February 2008 (CET)
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| "I'm sure the chapter pages will grow (just a little bit) to be brilliant appetizers for all the rest."
| | Hey, |
| That's what I'm hoping; I just spouted some random stuff off the top of my head as I made each chapter's Added Value section, so there's plenty of room for corrections/additional insights. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:48, 19 February 2008 (CET)
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| | haha yes, I'm sorry for that. The banner was located on my installation CD and actually, this is the installer splashscreen: [https://i.imgur.com/xti8qZC.png Click] --[[User:Noneatme|Noneatme]] |
| Here's an interesting article: Starbucks offers 2 hours free wifi each day. http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2008-06-02-starbucks-wifi_N.htm
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| Also, this site may help: http://www.wififreespot.com/
| | :Hehe, I feel somehow cheated that these levels never made it into the final game. The jewel case image you mentioned also gave me cancer and aids so I scanned the case for myself. Here is the [https://i.imgur.com/efLP43w.jpg back], [https://i.imgur.com/aUhqU3I.jpg CD], [https://i.imgur.com/JGf5AgJ.jpg inner part] and [https://i.imgur.com/NGwIbni.jpg front]. Also, the german sounds and voice lines are also well made and we have some translated textures like STAIRS at the warehouse level. And I also found some unused textures in some levels. --[[User:Noneatme|Noneatme]] ([[User talk:Noneatme|talk]]) 17:49, 29 July 2015 (CEST) |
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| So now you have no excuse for not hanging out at the OCF and the wiki, during your move :-)
| | ==Annoying sidebar on smartphone== |
| | When I browse the wiki with my Samsung/Android phone the side bar takes a good portion of the screen especially if you try to zoom in. |
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| Sorry, I didn't know where else to put this, the Blender thread was getting long.
| | It would be nice if that would hide when you scroll down and show when scroll up. --[[User:Paradox-01|paradox-01]] ([[User talk:Paradox-01|talk]]) 19:46, 23 August 2015 (CEST) |
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| [[User:EdT|EdT]] 00:25, 4 June 2008 (CEST) | | :When you are ready to test this on your phone, try commenting out the "div#mw-panel" modification on [[MediaWiki:Vector.css]], then see how things look on your phone. I'm not sure if this is a mobile-friendliness issue with MediaWiki 1.19, but I'm thinking it's probably the fixed sidebar CSS that's the issue. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 23:16, 23 August 2015 (CEST) |
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| Aw, Ed... I kinda ''liked'' the idea of Iritscen taking up iPod therapy ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 12:56, 4 June 2008 (CEST)
| | Couldn't edit the page you linked to so I took that equivalent at my place. Also cleared the browser cache but didn't work. Then I tried Google Chrome while I wasn't even logged in and it looks normal. Whatever the bug(?) is, at least I know now I could use chrome when surfing with a small-screened device. --[[User:Paradox-01|paradox-01]] ([[User talk:Paradox-01|talk]]) 21:27, 24 August 2015 (CEST) |
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| It's as geyser says, being restricted to my little iPod keyboard will do wonders for my verbosity. Suddenly I'll have to get right to the point and not write rambling diatribes. Seriously, I will probably take my laptop down to the library once in a while to use their free wi-fi (more of a library person than a Starbucks person; I don't even drink coffee). But I'm kinda lazy and rarely feel like unhooking my 'Book from all my stuff and schlepping it downtown. My iPod can get wi-fi right in my backyard, so I'll probably use that most of the time. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:25, 4 June 2008 (CEST)
| | :Ah, well that's good. Sorry, I didn't realize the main Vector.css page wasn't freely editable. But keep in mind that your user Vector.css page stacks on top of the main Vector.css, so when you comment out that CSS on your user page, it simply means that the main Vector.css is still used for mw-panel. You would have to re-declare mw-panel on your user page with its original properties in order to get rid of the anchored sidebar mod. Let me know if you want help with that. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:44, 24 August 2015 (CEST) |
| ----
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| '''It's your mind I have trouble reading, geyser ^_^ --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:00, 3 June 2008 (CEST)'''
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| :Quite. Your attention span is killing me. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:35, 5 June 2008 (CEST)
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| ::Your incessant criticism is killing me. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 22:57, 5 June 2008 (CEST)
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| ----
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| '''Seriously, if you have time, can you write an AE wiki tutorial about how you modified Griffin's head --[[User:EdT|EdT]] 06:41, 5 June 2008 (CEST)'''
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| :Quite. "How to [[wikipedia:FUBAR|FU]] Griffin's head [[wikipedia:FUBAR|BAR]]: a Blender tutorial by Iritscen". Definitely looking forward to it. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 22:35, 5 June 2008 (CEST)
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| ::...Are you saying you don't agree with a modeling decision I made with Griffin, or that I FUBARed the actual model file? Choose your words carefully, [[friend]]. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 22:57, 5 June 2008 (CEST)
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| ==Hacking Multiplayer==
| | Yes please. I couldn't figure out the right defaults. --[[User:Paradox-01|paradox-01]] ([[User talk:Paradox-01|talk]]) 22:40, 24 August 2015 (CEST) |
| '''Who here was involved with that effort to hack multiplayer into Oni?''' | |
| :Memory search: Alloc, Kumo, typhen (leader) and me. | |
| :Programs: typhen (Onyx/OnyxPatcher), neonew (OniHook) | |
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| '''How was the multiplayer actually supposed to get implemented into Oni?''' | | :It seems like you only need to change "position" back to "absolute", which is the default, but that's just one of the changes made to the panel in Vector.css, so let me know how it works on your phone. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 23:31, 24 August 2015 (CEST) |
| :Overwrite the memory at runtime.
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| '''How much was accomplished?'''
| | Okay thanks. With your code it works now on the phone. --[[User:Paradox-01|paradox-01]] ([[User talk:Paradox-01|talk]]) 08:38, 25 August 2015 (CEST) |
| :Some memory findings (pointers, player/enemy values, ...). (All?) results are stored [http://oniplayer.oni2.net/contents/whatsdone/found_stuff.php here] (Used program: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsearch TSearch]).
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| '''What were the obstacles?'''
| | ==Red links - weapon pages== |
| :Working in the memory in general
| | There's no talk page for [[Special:WantedPages]] so I will my question here: Why do we need extra pages for Plasma Rifle, Super Ball Gun, Black Adder, Plasma Rifle, Screaming Cannon, Wave Motion Cannon? |
| :Find the pointers (because the pointer position varies from OS to OS and from level to level).
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| :Time (as usual).
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| ----
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| typhen stopped his efforts on the project in August of 2005 for real life (girlfriend).
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| :[[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 00:25, 15 February 2008 (CET)
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| :Kumo contributed some pseudonetcode in C++ that was supposed to interface with Onyx.
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| :Alloc's OniTrainer implemented most of the gathered knowledge as the project went.
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| :(OniTrainer had no network component, but it was a good tool for experimentation.)
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| :The problem with TSearching was with all the big dynamically allocated structures.
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| :It was a rather crazy idea to figure out those structures without disassembling...
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| :I think the project started in April/May 2005, so it spanned the summer of 2005.
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| :neonew's OniHook was totally independent of Onyx, so it's another project, sorta.
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| :I'm not sure whether neonew disassembled Oni's engine in order to do the hooking.
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| :A fair amount of Oni's engine has been disassembled since, by both SFeLi and Neo.
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| :The structures responsible for the "game state" and "character state" are known.
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| ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 02:04, 15 February 2008 (CET)
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| ----
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| Some history:
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| typhen came up with the project in December of 2004. The first steps in the memory were made with RAMCheat. In January of 2005 typhen found the (great) program TSearch and the real memory search began. In April of 2005 geyser joined the Oni community and two or three weeks later the Ikonboard-based Oni forum crashed. (Because of too many verbose postings by him. :p *just kidding* ;-)
| | There's this [[Quotes/Weapons]] and IMO there's not more to say about them. Let's delete the red links? --[[User:Paradox-01|paradox-01]] ([[User talk:Paradox-01|talk]]) 20:51, 24 November 2015 (CET) |
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| Unfortunately Harry never made this forum available as an archive.
| | :There's also [[Gameplay]], for some brief weapon tips. Here's the thing, though. [[Mercury Bow]] is already an article. Why should the M Bow get an article and not the other weapons? In fact, I would say that most of the red links highlighted at the top of "Wanted pages" are equally minor. While there may not be a lot to say about them, they deserve at least a short page, I think. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 04:22, 25 November 2015 (CET) |
| :[[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 11:57, 15 February 2008 (CET) | |
| :The crash in April 2005 ''was'' supposedly due to me posting over a bad connection, which corrupted the database.
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| :My impression is that the actual project started in May 2005 and thus is largely covered on the after-crash forum.
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| :That's where you can see typhen and Kumo exchanging pseudonetcode, typhen and me talking about sync philosophy...
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| ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 12:22, 15 February 2008 (CET)
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| ----
| |
| Thanks for the info, guys. And sorry for being something of a jerk yesterday, geyser. Now, you said that the structures for game state and character state are now known -- are you referring to runtime variables? I don't see where those are documented in the wiki, unless [[OBD:ONCC|this sort of page]] covers that information. Is that whole structure just loaded into memory to be worked with at runtime, and do we know where in memory to look for it, or is that where the process became difficult, due to that whole "dynamically allocated" structure that you mentioned? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:42, 15 February 2008 (CET)
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| :"And sorry for being something of a jerk yesterday, geyser." Sigh. I just don't understand why you avoid gathering first-hand knowledge.
| | ==Wrong pseudo code== |
| :Since you have that much free time, why not ''really'' come to terms with the object you want to provide accurate documentation for? Sigh.
| |
| :I must say you still post and edit a wee bit too compulsively (a hyperactive kind of hyperdedication), and with not enough second sight.
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| :Sure, the wiki needs regular editors, but you pretty much "jumped on it like an oversexed hippo" (C) Bungie. Hope it'll wear off somehow.
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| :^_^
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| :The disassembled engine is only documented in private databases, and we do not plan to publish those in any foreseeable future.
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| :The "game state" is a huge chunk of data holding various runtime variables and structured objects (other, big chunks of data).
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| :In particular, the game state structure holds a dynamically allocated array of character objects, each with a character state.
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| :The character state holds various runtime variables specific to a given character, much more than the static game content.
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| :Dynamical allocation means that the space required for the structures is not part of the EXE; it's requested at runtime.
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| :Depending on the history prior to the allocation, the dynamically allocated space may end up at a different location.
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| :The ONCC has little to do with "character state". In fact, the character state holds a mere link to the current ONCC.
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| ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 15:43, 16 February 2008 (CET)
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| ==Importing from Blender==
| | Hi Iritscen thanks for fixing my wording. |
| '''''This is the place where EdT tells me what was wrong with that Griffin model I gave him.''''' :-) What did you have to do to get it imported? (I know you already told me some of this, but let's state it here to lay the groundwork for the discussion.)
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| :--[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:59, 2 June 2008 (CEST)
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| ::General note 1: please provide links to every file you "cite" as an example, because "I extracted Motoko from the files you posted" or "geyser's earlier copy had triangles connected" just isn't informative enough. "Help us help you help us all."
| | I have just noticed a small error. |
| ::General note 2: please stop guessing and start looking for systematic ways of investigating problems, because stuff like
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| :::"Its hard to say where the problem is, it could be Cheetah3D or it could be FBXConverter. All I know, is that the model's triangles are disconnected once I have it in Cheetah3D"
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| ::and
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| :::"Hmm, I guess Blender's exported DAE might have had a problem that Cheetah only noticed upon exporting; that almost sounds more like a Cheetah problem, though. Maybe it's both program's faults, technically."
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| ::is just not good for you.
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| :::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
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| ::::geyser, geyser, geyser. Although I didn't strictly label it as such, this was really going to be a discussion between Ed and myself (see ''my'' bold italics). The reason I didn't send you the files I was working with was so that I could focus on problem-solving. So when I used terms like "geyser's earlier copy", Ed knew exactly what I meant, because this dialogue was picking up from PMs we were exchanging. Now you've come in here telling us how to talk about stuff, and the page is all gummed up. I'm the one who should be "meta-sighing" here. I have little time for these games, as this is my last week on the Net for the next month, I barely have any time this week at all, and *all* I want to know is how to get my own models into Oni. Your comments so far are largely distracting from our efforts. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
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| :::::This discussion is a public follow-up to your PM exchange, and if you mean to lay a solid groundwork for it, no detail is superfluous ''even'' if you're only talking to Ed. Precision is what enables expert troubleshooting and saves everybody's precious time. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
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| Where do I start? :-)
| | The following code: |
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| Here's the basic workflow I use for Blender:
| | for (int i = 0; i < 50; i++) |
| :Export from Oni using AE Tools, option for Blender.
| | { |
| :Import into Blender, using Collada 1.4
| | print("Is this annoying yet?"); |
| :The 3D model will appear in a standing position. Do not change the rotation or position of the body parts.
| | wait(20); |
| ::Interesting. Griffin was always standing up, but when I extracted Motoko from the files you posted, and brought her into Blender, she had her legs behind her head! (Get your mind out of the gutter!) All her limbs were pointing up above her head. Have you seen that happen? What does that indicate? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST)
| | } |
| :::That's how the body looks like when the rotation of all the body parts is set to 0 on the x,y,z axis, also this is known as the default orientation. I believe that when a body part is selected and you type "n" a window appears showing the properties such as position, scale, rotation. [[User:EdT|EdT]]
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| :::For further reference, see [[TRTA|HERE]] and [[OBD:TRAM/raw0x34#Origin_and_direction_of_the_angles|HERE]]. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
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| ::::Okay, I thought that might be what zero rotation looks like. Now, are you saying that if a model imports like that, I shouldn't rotate the parts to more normal angles? Because I did that for Motoko. Did that cause a problem when you went to import her into Oni? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 22:06, 2 June 2008 (CEST)
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| :::::Yes, so I just copied the head from your files and pasted into my original one. Also, the head's center point was off, so I had to correct it. [[User:EdT|EdT]]
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| :::::Actually, everything but Griffin's head is untouched ''and 100% correct'', so you can work with Iritscen's file, without pasting the head elsewhere. [[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
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| ::::::geyser... you're looking at Ed's fixed version, aren't you? I refused to link to mine because it was so messed up. If the copy you're looking at has correct part names, then ''it's not the copy I was working with''. It would be a waste of time to examine that model and fix every problem when Neo has already fixed the export bugs and newly-made exports are fine. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
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| :::::::No, I'm looking at [http://www.sendspace.com/file/rl6zre THIS] one. As far as I can tell it's the exact same "flawed" version as you gave to Ed, and apart from the head name/hierarchy/placement (and the head mesh per se) there's nothing wrong with that model. Oh, and I still don't like how you blame OniSplit (version number?) for abstract bugs. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
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| ::::::::Whoops, I forgot Ed linked to my uploaded flawed model. See below for my answer on the "abstract bug" part. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:00, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
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| :Make the changes.
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| :Export from Blender, Collada 1.4, options: triangles, disable physics, current scene. (I'm doing this from memory, I do not have access to Blender at work. will correct if necessary)
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| :Import to Oni, using AE Tools.
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| Things to remember:
| | found here: |
| :Each body part has a center point, when exporting from Oni as Collada, these center points are at the correct location. However, if new parts are added, then the center point must be set. To set the center point, position the cursor at the correct location on the body part, you will need to adjust it on all 3 axis. Then go to the menu Object: Transform: Set to cursor. (from memory)
| | [[BSL:Manual#schedule_..._repeat_..._every_...]] |
| :When replacing a body part, its important that its rotation matches the original part. Also, the name must be exactly as the one replaced. Finally, the parent/child relationship must be re-established.
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| ::''The notion of rotation matching is a bit fuzzy here, there, and everywhere. You're not making it clear what to do about rotations that don't match. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
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| What went wrong with Griffin?
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| :It appears there is an additional object connected to the new head, which needs to be deleted. The new head needs to be named correctly, it needs to be attached to the neck (parent/child). Finally the scale/rotation needs to match the previous head.
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| ::I did in fact forget to establish a link to the new head (I realized after I had sent it to you). I will have to examine the issue of scale/rotation to make sure it is set properly in Griffin, I don't know that part of the program yet. I can probably figure that out. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST)
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| :::The scaling is fine. As for the rotation, the head is supposed to be aligned with the neck. So the only things that need to be done (apart from deleting the garbage object) are as follows: rename to "head"; reparent to "neck"; move/rotate into place; set center from cursor; "Object|Clear/Apply|Apply Scale/Rotation to ObData". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
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| ::::See, this is genuinely helpful. Thank you. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
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| :::::My pleasure, but it's ''not'' helpful until you acknowledge that it actually fixes the Griffin you've been working with, in-place. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
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| :Perhaps, since I was working with the .dae version, and not the original Blender file, I was not able to export to Collada, it kept failing on me. Not sure why...
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| ::Afraid you lost me here. DAE *is* Collada, but you said you couldn't export it to Collada.... --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST)
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| :::All I know is that after importing your .dae file, I could not export it out as .dae. [[User:EdT|EdT]]
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| ::::Hmm, I guess Blender's exported DAE might have had a problem that Cheetah only noticed upon exporting; that almost sounds more like a Cheetah problem, though. Maybe it's both program's faults, technically. Well, in the future I will send you the .blend file if I need help, but hopefully I can make my own imports from now on. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 22:06, 2 June 2008 (CEST)
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| :::::Actually, the exporting error came from Blender itself, you can try it yourself. Import the .dae file you sent me into Blender, now try to export that file as Collada. [[User:EdT|EdT]]
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| ::::::Just to clear things up: Iritscen, Ed's DAE->DAE problem has ''nothing'' to do with Cheetah3D. He's just importing your .dae into Blender and trying to export it as .dae from Blender afterwards. I'm not sure why he's having trouble doing so, because for me that same operation works fine.
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| ::::::Still, I'd have a piece of advice as for exporting COLLADA from Blender: disable physics, use ''relative'' texture paths, ''and'' export selection only (select all body parts before exporting). The latter is to avoid accumulating layers of irrelevant and confusing metadata in the COLLADA file format.
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| :::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
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| ::::::::I have yet to try to import my exported .dae back into Blender and export it again, so I can't say yet if it will work for me. But I will follow geyser's advice about exporting from now on. The point about selecting all body parts and only exporting the selection, in particular, may be key to avoiding future problems. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
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| :::::::::Well, DAEs exported with scene metadata are annoying more than anything else. It will justs end up as nested scenes when and if you import and reexport the DAE again, but it doesn't screw up the model in any way. For one thing, [http://www.sendspace.com/file/rl6zre THIS] includes scene data and I can work with it just fine.
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| :::::::::Please note your misunderstanding of Ed's DAE->DAE problem as an example of a situation where early disambiguation wouldn't have hurt. Just because you and Ed have been talking about Blender and HD Griffin in private doesn't make you able to read each other's minds. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
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| ::::::::::I know what you're talking about when you say the scene metadata is annoying, I tried to read the file once with the naked eye, and got pretty ticked off trying to make heads or tails out of all the nesting.
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| ::::::::::As regards my little misunderstanding about Ed's DAE->DAE problem, that was easily corrected by a short exchange between us. Even being as vague as you seem to think we are, we actually haven't wasted any real time due to misunderstandings so far. So we can at least read each others' minds enough that we don't have to spell out everything letter by letter. It's your mind I have trouble reading, geyser ^_^ --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:00, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| :What did I do? I used Cheetah3D. I exported ONCCgriffin_generic as Collada, used FBXConverter to convert the file to .fbx. I also converted your new model to .fbx. I then copied the new griffin head to the griffin_generic fbx file, replaced the original head, set the correct rotation and parent/child relationship. Exported it out as .fbx, converted it to .dae using FBXConverter, then imported into Oni. Also, regarding the triangles not being connected in my model, I did not Optimize the model in Cheetah3D before exporting.
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| [[User:EdT|EdT]] 20:51, 2 June 2008 (CEST)
| | is not correct. It is not equivalent to (at least if you change the variables, let say 50 to -1) in |
| ::When you say you did not optimize the model... was that supposed to connect the triangles? Does Cheetah otherwise disconnect the triangles? That would be very odd. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST)
| | schedule dprint("Is this annoying yet?") repeat 50 every 20; |
| :::Optimize in Cheetah3D connects the triangles, and a couple of others things, I don't remember right now. [[User:EdT|EdT]]
| |
| ::::See, I just don't get that, because geyser's earlier copy had triangles connected. It concerns me that Cheetah would disconnect the triangles unless you specifically tell it not to. When you're working with the file in Cheetah, are the triangles already disconnected, or is that only happening when it exports? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 22:06, 2 June 2008 (CEST)
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| :::::What can I say? I didn't know there was a problem, until you pointed it out. Its hard to say where the problem is, it could be Cheetah3D or it could be FBXConverter. All I know, is that the model's triangles are disconnected once I have it in Cheetah3D [[User:EdT|EdT]]
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| ::::::You could shed some light on this mystery by uploading the FBX file output by FBXConverter. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
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| ::::::Yes, EdT, this may be helpful. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| :'''it's important that its rotation matches the original part''' Conceptually, this has to do with the "center point": you have to define not only a position for it, but also a rotation, and thinking of it as a "point" can be misleading. I have no idea how Blender handles this exactly, but I'd be surprised if it was working with ill-defined frames of reference. Therefore the "center point" mentioned by Ed ''must'' have an adjustable orientation property.
| |
| ::Hmm, not sure I get this, but do I need to get it? As long as I alter polys and don't add new parts (which, yes, I did do for Griffin, but only to get his new head on the old body that was un-importable), do I need to worry about center points and rotations? As long as I don't change either of those? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| :::That is correct [[User:EdT|EdT]]
| |
| :::'''do I need to get it?''' That's entirely up to you. Stuff like "bastardizing" can indeed be done without "worrying about center points and rotations". But without a solid notion of the "reference frames" (a.k.a. "systems of coordinates") involved, a major screw-up is only a matter of time. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| :::'''only to get his new head on the old body that was un-importable''' Er? I'm confused again: what old body are we talking about, how was it un-importable, and how does this all fit in with you eventually combining that supposedly un-importable body with the new head? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| ::::Just to explain this once and for all: I exported Griffin. Months ago. OniSplit was still buggy in the area of exporting at the time. Stuff was messed up in the model, but that would only become known later. It wasn't anything that I could notice while working on it. Eventually I realized, from seeing Ed's bug reports on Neo's talk page, that my model was going to be trouble. So, last week, I used OniSplit 0.9.14 to export Griffin, and appended my old file with the HD head onto the imported new export. I deleted the head in the new export and put the HD head into place (but forgot to parent it). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| :::::That explains a lot, but the information is still incomplete without the version number of the OniSplit you used "months ago" and the way in which "stuff was messed up". Are we even talking about COLLADA? Didn't you start working on a Griffin imported from OBJ, before OniSplit even started supporting COLLADA? It may look like a detail to you, but it's very important that you remember. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| ::::::I don't have an exact record of what version of OniSplit was used to export Griffin, or what month it was done in, but it was probably the end of March. And yes, I did in fact export Griffin as OBJ before the Collada support came along. The model on my sendspace account is in fact that model (imported to, and worked with in, Blender, then exported to DAE). Now, as far as the exact 'stuff that was messed up', all I can say is that I was reading Neo's talk page (which was completely different at the time), and my eyes were glazing over, because I had not delved into the technicalities and a lot of the exchange between EdT and Neo was like Greek to me, but I do remember reading about incorrect part names. I can no longer find that discussion in his page or any version of it in the past, but Ed can back me up on this, that he noticed that there were parts with names like "right right" instead of "calf right", etc. I believe there were other issues aside from naming, but I also felt that, even if I didn't know what the problems were, they were out there, lurking, and it was best to paste the HD head onto a new export. So, because I refused to let the old model's export problems trip me up (and yes, OniSplit was buggy, Neo will admit that), I never determined ''exactly'' what those problems would have been. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:00, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| :'''What went wrong with Griffin?''' If that's of any help, you can let ''me'' (or Neo) try and import him ''any time at all''. When in trouble, there's nothing wrong with asking those familiar with OniSplit and/or the COLLADA format to have a look. What kind of masochist are you? If you're scared of me, try and "use" Neo. He may not help you all the way out, but he won't bite, that's for sure.
| |
| :: *shrug* Ed just seemed to be the person to ask. We're using the same programs, and he had clear experience in importing models already. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| :::From what I have seen, Ed was quick to turn away from Blender and has since been working with Cheetah3D. No to say that he can't be of any help at all, but when it comes to Blender's COLLADA plugin and possible issues with ''that'', the right person to ask is Neo, who has taken the time to look at the plugin's (buggy) source to make sure Blender is decently compatible with the flavor of COLLADA used by OniSplit. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| :Oh, and I'm also very confused about '''work on Griffin began so long ago that OniSplit had some model exporting issues, which are now a part of the model, so the model is not able to be imported as is''' ... No bug report at all? Just what "issues" could we be talking about? Are those ''assumptions'', maybe? Well?
| |
| ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 20:16, 2 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| ::The reason I didn't attempt a bug report was that I suspected the problems were extensive (wrong part names, for one thing, but probably more), and it was pointless to analyze the Griffin model I was working with as long as the head could be stuck on a new export of the original body. I knew I was going to do that so I never asked anyone to analyze the body I was working with (after all, only the head was changed and only the head mattered). Then, I *did* ask for a bug report from Ed by sending him my model, since I didn't know enough to find those bugs myself. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| :::Meta-sigh. There is ''nothing'' wrong with the Griffin model you were working on: it's ''100% consistent'' with "a new export of the original body". It is ''not'' corrupt in ''any'' way, except for the hierarchy of the head, and that one can be fixed in-place without sticking anything anywhere.
| |
| :::Either way, in the future it'll be great if you don't casually attribute non-existing "issues" to OniSplit as if that was a fact. We have respect for user error; in return, please ''at least'' give the benefit of the doubt to the tools at your disposal (it's about ''your credibility'', not about offense).
| |
| ::::--[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| :::::You probably get this by now, but the model that's "100% consistent" with a new export *is* a new export (except the HD head). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| ::::::Yes, but (see above) this still isn't telling me whatever was wrong with the old export: "wrong part names, for one thing, but probably more"... "probably"? Just what kind of suspectedly extensive problems were those. Please cope with my curiosity. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| :::::::(Answered above.) --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:00, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| ::geyser, sorry my terminology is not correct. What I called "center point" is the point where the body part will rotate around. I used "Rotation" as the orientation of the body part in 3D space. When the rotation for all the body parts is 0 for x,y,z, then the pose of the model is the default orientation. But since the pose in Blender is a standing pose, the rotation of the body parts is not 0,0,0. So if you replaced the head, with one that had a different rotation (even though it looked the same), the head will appear wrong in Oni.
| |
| :::''That's where the catch is, Ed: are you sure you understand how it is possible that 2 heads have "different rotations" even though they "look the same"? And in what sense is the rotation of the body parts not 0,0,0 for a standing pose? Think "local reference". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| :::''Blender designers do a great job at confusing people, in the way only global orientations can be seen and edited, but it's the ''local reference'' of each body part that matters, and the ''local'' orientations of most body parts (e.g., the head) are 0,0,0. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| ::Here's the link to Iritscen's Griffin: http://www.sendspace.com/file/rl6zre Also, you can find my version of Griffin here: http://drop.io/EdT_OniFIles
| |
| ::[[User:EdT|EdT]] 20:51, 2 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| :::Thanks, Ed. Your TRBS is OK, I guess (as for the head mesh, that's a completely different story). The problematic .dae has been an opportunity to check out just what tool Iritscen is "forced" to work with. I'm definitely appalled at how much Blender sucks, from the confusing/confused design/philosophy to the online manual. In particular when it comes to coordinate systems and transformations, it's ''unspeakably'' clumsy. Of course, there are some decent workarounds (see 5-step instructions for fixing Griffin's head above), but that doesn't cover every real-world situation, and every such "exception" will be a little big nightmare. Maybe for HD modding or bastardizing the workflow won't be ''too'' lousy, but it will never ''soar'', that much is certain. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| ::::Yes, the design is crappy (but don't tell them that, they have blinders on and can't see the appalling stupidity of things like no copy/paste command). Yes, the wiki-manual is crappy. But I think that we are actually close to a perfectly serviceable workflow. I used AETools this morning to export Griffin from the .oni file that Ed has up on his drop.io page, and it looks correct in Blender. I still have to test what happens when I edit the file (thus saving it in the .blend format), then export it to .dae from Blender, then import it into a .oni using AETools. It may very well work. Don't nay-say so much, geyser. Griffin in specific has had issues that will not ever come up again in the future. I still have to discuss him here because I need to fix the model for further work going forward, but our discussion here about workflow is somewhat a separate topic because it assumes that the OniSplit export is not buggy, etc. That's okay, because the OS export isn't buggy anymore. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| :::::Blender is irredeemable beyond any complaint to developers. But I'll help you out if you choose to stick with it.
| |
| :::::Calling OniSplit export buggy without a proper bug report or even a version number... Final credibility warning.
| |
| :::::'''I need to fix the model for further work going forward''' "Yes you do... perhaps more than you know..." (C)Kerr
| |
| ::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| :::::::If you are insinuating something, please spell it out [[Image_talk:Poly_Mods-Griffin_Master_Comp.jpg|here]]. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:00, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| ::P.S. to geyser: I did offer these files to you by saying you could ask Ed for them... so, you can't accuse me of withholding them from you since I only just made them available to anyone at all, and you were included in that offer. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| :::I wasn't accusing anyone of anything right there, but you have to admit that "oh, just go and ask Ed if you really wanna have a look at it, but I really wouldn't bother if I were you" is not the same as "here it is". Also, it's not just about "offering" stuff to ''me''; this is typically the case where I'd address ''Neo'' directly, at the first sign of trouble... "if I were you". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
|
| |
|
| Where do I begin? There is much being discussed here, so I'm just going to put all my comments in one area.
| | the correct code should be the following: |
| :Regarding the "Rotation" terminology, this is my point of reference: I exported ONCCgriffin_generic from Oni for Blender, get standing pose, select head, look at the Transform Properties I see RotX 90.00 RotY-90.00 RotZ 0.00 In comparison, Iritscen's griffin head has the properties RotX -0.08 RotY-1.993, RotZ 3.315. So even though the head looked the same, the Rotation properties were different. So if we were to export that file to .oni, would the head be in the correct position?
| |
|
| |
|
| :Now my problem with exporting Iritscen's .dae I get this error from Blender (I followed what geyser stated about the export settings)
| | int i = 0; |
| | do |
| | { |
| | print("Is this annoying yet?"); |
| | wait(20); |
| | i++; |
| | } while (i != 50); |
|
| |
|
| FEEDBACK: Illusoft Collada 1.4 Plugin v0.3.159 started
| | Why? If the conditional value is -1 or 0 (instead of 50) your code would never run (it would stop at first loop condition validation). |
| Traceback (most recent call last):
| |
| File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/cstartup.py", line 609, in ButtonEvent
| |
| File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 63, in __init__
| |
| File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 71, in __Export
| |
| File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 346, in Export
| |
| File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 516, in SaveToDae
| |
| File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 1879, in SaveSceneToDae
| |
| File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 2848, in GetBindMaterials
| |
| File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 3106, in SaveToDae
| |
| File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 2911, in AddImageTexture
| |
| AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'name'
| |
|
| |
|
| :For the disconnected triangles, I found the issue. Converting from .dae to .fbx no disconnected triangles, going from .fbx to .dae, disconnected triangles. Here are all the files: http://drop.io/EdT_OniFiles griffin_dae_fbx.zip The .dae/.fbx files with ORG in the name are the original .dae and converted .fbx. The ones with 2 is the .dae converted from the .fbx and back to .fbx. | | While with: |
|
| |
|
| :One other thought, the messed up names, I had that same problem when importing the ONCC as an object into Blender (Prior to the Collada option). The names of the body parts would be misapplied in Blender, so the head would be named something else, I don't remember the details. So that's probably what Iritscen used when he first started to modify Griffin's head
| | schedule dprint("Is this annoying yet?") repeat -1 every 20; |
|
| |
|
| [[User:EdT|EdT]] 18:51, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | | It would run forever. Please consider to edit the page or if you want I can do it. Thanks. [[User:Script 10k|Script 10k]] ([[User talk:Script 10k|talk]]) 19:27, 2 November 2017 (CET) |
|
| |
|
| :So, um, what can we do about the FBX->DAE problem? I just noticed that the Griffin model in your drop.io TRBS.oni file, when exported to .dae, has twice as many vertices as my original file (on the sendspace account). The face count is largely the same (= no extra triangles, just extra points). Many connections between triangles are broken, though not all of them. You can see for yourself by exporting the .oni to .dae and opening it in Blender. As long as you're in Object Mode, the stats at the top-right (V-xxxx and F-xxxx) tell you the vertex and face counts. You can also start grabbing points and trying to move them, to see how many are disconnected. If *all* of them were broken, it would mean 3-5 times as many vertices; some triangles *are* still connected to others. Still, that means Oni is taking way more of a hit than it needs to. When I used AETools to make your fixed HD Griffin cel-shaded, it worked nicely (well, the edge color is not black, but it actually looks kind of cool to me). But that model has twice as many faces (natch), as well as still having twice as many vertices due to the disconnect issue, so it's gotta be hitting Oni's engine pretty hard. | | :Oh, good point! Sorry I changed your pseudocode and didn't think about why you used "!=" instead of "<". Before I fix the page, let me ask, shouldn't I just set it back to the "for" loop that you wrote before? Is there a reason why the "do-while" loop above is preferable? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 22:41, 2 November 2017 (CET) |
| :--[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:35, 4 June 2008 (CEST)
| | :: Hi, yes I used the "!=" in the for loop because the reason above. Turns out that it was also wrong! Because it would also fail for this example: |
| | schedule dprint("Is this annoying yet?") repeat 0 every 20; |
|
| |
|
| ::The easiest way to overcome the FBX-DAE problem is for me to learn Blender! Seriously, if you have time, can you write an AE wiki tutorial about how you modified Griffin's head, so that even a dummy like me can understand it. Please include what tools you used, how to access them, how to increase the polygons for the "HD" look and so on. (If possible screenshots would also be helpful) I know that a tutorial geared toward Oni 3D modeling will be very valuable.
| | for (int i = 0; i != 0; i++) |
| | { |
| | print("Is this annoying yet?"); # this would never run with this code because 0 == 0 |
| | wait(20); |
| | } |
|
| |
|
| ::[[User:EdT|EdT]] 06:41, 5 June 2008 (CEST) | | See, it would also never run using my code for 0, so the do while loop is the correct equivalent imo. [[User:Script 10k|Script 10k]] ([[User talk:Script 10k|talk]]) 00:17, 3 November 2017 (CET) |
|
| |
|
| :::I can certainly do that at some point, although I'm a tad hesitant to teach anyone Blender when it's giving me so much trouble (see below). Although, just to be fair, Blender's weird design is not causing any problems. The problems are all coming from the third-party Collada plug-in. If we can iron out the problems I'm going to report, then, sure, I'll make an Oni-oriented quick tutorial for Blender on the wiki. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:57, 5 June 2008 (CEST) | | Also I am thinking if the following code: |
| | schedule dprint("Is this annoying yet?") repeat 0 every 20; |
| | runs for long enough it could theoretically overflow with counter becoming negative and eventually reach 0 and stop, practically this can't ever happening because even if the counter would increase one 60 times per second it would need (2^31)*2/60/60/24 hours to reach zero (sorry if I'm doing bad the math but I am sure the number of hours it would take is just ridiculous). [[User:Script 10k|Script 10k]] ([[User talk:Script 10k|talk]]) 00:41, 3 November 2017 (CET) |
|
| |
|
| ---- | | :Okay, I implemented your "do-while" loop except that I am starting "i" at 1 instead of 0. I think that's what you actually wanted because it will iterate the correct number of times in all cases. (If it was initialized to 0 then it would stop after one iteration instead of running forever.) But I'm pretty tired right now, so let me know if that is also a mistake. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 05:13, 3 November 2017 (CET) |
|
| |
|
| Okay, some of this is in response to geyser/Ed's comments above, but I'm throwing it all down here to keep things simple. Hopefully you can add your responses down here too, since that top part is pretty crazy now.
| | ::It wouldn't, note the i++ before the condition check, so the first check would be 1!=0. I will fix that part of the code no problem. [[User:Script 10k|Script 10k]] ([[User talk:Script 10k|talk]]) 11:09, 3 November 2017 (CET) |
|
| |
|
| General Notes: These attempts all used the latest AETools and OniSplit v0.9.14. They use Ed's model, not my working model, which DOES have wrong part names, geyser (the word "iteration" and some other junk is part of each part name). Also, the files linked to below are named [x].dae and [x]2.dae to differentiate, but when I worked with them in the importing-to-Oni process, they were named identically.
| | :::Oops, my bad. I shouldn't try to code after midnight. Thanks for the fix. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:35, 3 November 2017 (CET) |
|
| |
|
| '''Working with HD Griffin'''<br>
| | == slowmo revisited == |
| Attempt 1
| |
| # Used AETools to extract Ed's TRBSgriffin_body_high.oni using "for Blender" option.
| |
| # Imported into Blender, did nothing with it except select all 19 bones.
| |
| # Exported to Collada format using "only current scene", "disable physics", "only export selection", and "use relative paths" (as well as "triangles" option) per geyser's suggestion.
| |
| # Used AETools' Import and Rebuild to bring .dae back into Oni.
| |
|
| |
|
| Notes: My Blender-exported .dae is 744KB, but the original .oni-exported .dae was only 228KB. Also, I later imported the Blender-exported .dae back into Blender itself and the model was horribly messed up ([http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t72/Iritscen/Screen%20Caps/Oni/messedupexport.jpg]).
| | ''[In reference to [[User_talk:Iritscen/Archive2#slowmo|this old discussion]].]''<br/> |
| | Hi guys! Sorry for the massive bump. I am finishing my Omega Tournament Level and since I use slowmo in two calls, so I needed to investigate this issue (to find the correct ratio for both platforms). So I asked EdT to run the following BSL scripts (http://script10k.oni2.net/wikifiles/EnvWarehouse_slowmo_test_scripts.7z) on mac and to record it in a 60 FPS video. I did the same thing in windows. In the end I created two videos that compare the two versions of the scripts (one with slowmo 100 and other with slowmo 600) in both operating systems. The results seem to be the same!<br/> |
| | You can watch the comparison here (you need a libx265 player):<br/> |
| | http://script10k.oni2.net/videos/comparison_slowmo_win_mac_1.mp4<br/> |
| | http://script10k.oni2.net/videos/comparison_slowmo_win_mac_2.mp4 |
|
| |
|
| Results: Oni immediately crashes when I shapeshift to Griffin.
| | In case you are interested the original videos can be found here:<br/> |
| | http://script10k.oni2.net/videos/slowmo_os_comparison_original_videos.7z --[[User:Script 10k|Script 10k]] ([[User talk:Script 10k|talk]]) 04:58, 24 August 2019 |
|
| |
|
| Attempt 2
| | [[Category:Userspace]] |
| # Used AETools to extract Ed's TRBSgriffin_body_high.oni.
| |
| # Used AETools' Import and Rebuild to bring .dae back into Oni.
| |
| | |
| Notes: This is simply testing that AETools/OniSplit actually are working with themselves and that their input/output are compatible.
| |
| | |
| Results: Success, not that this really helps me when I am trying to edit the model in Blender and bring it into Oni.
| |
| | |
| Attempt 3
| |
| # Used AETools to extract Ed's TRBSgriffin_body_high.oni.
| |
| # Imported into Blender, did nothing with it.
| |
| # Exported to Collada format using "only current scene", "disable physics", and "use relative paths" (as well as "triangles" option).
| |
| # Used AETools' Import and Rebuild to bring .dae back into Oni.
| |
| | |
| Notes: The Blender export is still very large (748KB). But this time it imports back into Blender properly, at least.
| |
| | |
| Results: Same crash as in Attempt 1.
| |
| | |
| Attempt 4
| |
| # Used AETools to extract Ed's TRBSgriffin_body_high.oni.
| |
| # Imported into Blender, did nothing with it.
| |
| # Exported to Collada format using "only current scene" and "disable physics" (as well as "triangles" option).
| |
| # Used AETools' Import and Rebuild to bring .dae back into Oni.
| |
| | |
| Notes: Blender export still 748KB.
| |
| | |
| Results: Same crash.
| |
| | |
| '''Working with Motoko'''<br>
| |
| Attempt 1
| |
| # Used AETools to extract dae. for Blender from geyser's TRBSmotoko_body_high.oni.
| |
| # Imported into Blender, changed nothing.
| |
| # Exported as .dae using "triangles", "disable physics", "only current scene", "use relative paths".
| |
| # Halted process here, as it has the same issues as the Blender-exported Griffin and failure is certain.
| |
| | |
| Notes: Second .dae is again much bigger than first; examining it, I see arrays of UV coord.s that are a few times larger than the first .dae's versions. Also, hundreds of normal coord.s have been added for each part, where before there were none. Also, the arrays found at places like "neck-geo-position" (now marked with <nowiki><p></p></nowiki>) seem to be in a completely different format than in the original .dae (series of whole numbers, always positive, rather than the +/- floating point numbers in the original .dae). See http://www.drop.io/blenderisdumb for the first and second .dae files.
| |
| | |
| '''Working with Barabus'''<br>
| |
| Attempt 1
| |
| # Used AETools to extract ONCCbarabus.oni for Blender from level0_Final.
| |
| # Imported into Blender, changed nothing.
| |
| # Exported using triangles, disable physics, only current scene, relative paths.
| |
| # Halted process due to seeing same issue with output.
| |
| | |
| Notes: Same issues as Motoko and Griffin with second .dae. See http://www.drop.io/blenderisdumb for the two .dae files.
| |
| | |
| Okay, so my basic point here is, What are we gonna go about the screwed-up DAE output from Blender's Collada plug-in?
| |
| --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 17:26, 5 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| | |
| P.S.: If for some reason you want to post a file to that drop.io account, like maybe a fixed version of something, go to http://www.drop.io/blenderisdumb. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:57, 5 June 2008 (CEST)
| |
| | |
| :I'll run the same tests as you did and post my results. Note your links to the .dae have timed out, better change the links just to the drop.io folder.
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| :[[User:EdT|EdT]] 20:24, 5 June 2008 (CEST)
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| ::Thanks and thanks, Ed. I didn't know those links would time out, at least until the account is deleted, which will be in a month (unless I renew). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 20:41, 5 June 2008 (CEST)
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| Here's the results of my brief test:
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| Working with Barabas same procedure as Iritscen's Attempt 1:
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| #Original ONCCbaraus.dae exported from Oni 144KB, exported from Blender 284KB.
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| #Imported back to Oni, works fine.
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| EDIT: Added ONCCbarabus_EdT.dae to http://www.drop.io/blenderisdumb
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| Working with HD same procedure as Iritscen's Griffin Attempt 4:
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| #Original TRBSgriffin_body_high.dae exported from Oni 228KB, exported from Blender 436KB
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| #Imported back to Oni, once Griffin comes into view (he was off camera, but once I turned toward him), Oni crashes.
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| The TRBSgriffin_body_high_EdT.dae was added to http://www.drop.io/blenderisdumb
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| Crash report:
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| Thread 0:
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| srr0: 0x9000b348 srr1: 0x0000d030 cr: 0x24022024 xer: 0x00000000 lr: 0x9000b29c ctr: 0x9000b340
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| r0: 0xffffffe1 r8: 0x00000000 r16: 0x00000000 r24: 0xf0182840
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| r1: 0xf0182770 r9: 0x00000000 r17: 0x00000000 r25: 0x00000450
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| r2: 0xa1b1c1d3 r10: 0x91444fa8 r18: 0x00006803 r26: 0x00006703
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| r3: 0xf0182840 r11: 0xa0006a28 r19: 0x00000000 r27: 0x00000000
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| r4: 0x03000006 r12: 0x9000b340 r20: 0x05c7f91c r28: 0x00000000
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| r5: 0x00000000 r13: 0x00000000 r21: 0x849336f2 r29: 0x03000006
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| r6: 0x00000450 r14: 0x00000000 r22: 0x0063e508 r30: 0x03000006
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| r7: 0x00006703 r15: 0x00000001 r23: 0x00000000 r31: 0x907de670
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| 0 -- 0x9000b348 -- _mach_msg_trap
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| 1 -- 0x9000b29c -- _mach_msg
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| 2 -- 0x907de998 -- ___CFRunLoopRun
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| 3 -- 0x907de29c -- _CFRunLoopRunSpecific
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| 4 -- 0x91458524 -- __ZN10HALRunLoop9OwnThreadEPv
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| 5 -- 0x914582c4 -- __ZN9CAPThread5EntryEPS_
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| 6 -- 0x9002bd08 -- __pthread_body
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| Thread 1:
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| srr0: 0x000ef5f0 srr1: 0x0200f030 cr: 0x44000220 xer: 0x00000004 lr: 0x000ef5e4 ctr: 0x900031c0
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| r0: 0x44000220 r8: 0xd83c9f00 r16: 0x00000000 r24: 0x00000000
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| r1: 0xbfffdc80 r9: 0x00000009 r17: 0x00000000 r25: 0x00195f6d
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| r2: 0x00000020 r10: 0x015f2020 r18: 0x00000001 r26: 0x00000000
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| r3: 0x00000000 r11: 0x001b9610 r19: 0x00000000 r27: 0x001c67bc
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| r4: 0xbffff7ac r12: 0x900031c0 r20: 0xbffff7ac r28: 0x00003fff
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| r5: 0x0b04d312 r13: 0x00000000 r21: 0x00000000 r29: 0xbffff9b8
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| r6: 0xbffff9b8 r14: 0x00000000 r22: 0x000000ff r30: 0x0b04d300
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| r7: 0xbfffddc8 r15: 0x00000000 r23: 0xbffff9c0 r31: 0x000ef5e4
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| 0 -- 0x000ef5f0 -- _TSrContext_FormatString
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| 1 -- 0x000ef5e4 -- _TSrContext_FormatString
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| 2 -- 0x000b9770 -- _COrTextArea_Display
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| 3 -- 0x000b8e04 -- _COrConsole_Display_Messages
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| 4 -- 0x00062598 -- _ONiGameState_Display_Overlay_Elements
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| 5 -- 0x00062d28 -- _ONrGameState_Display
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| 6 -- 0x00003d48 -- _ONiRunGame
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| 7 -- 0x00004610 -- _ONiMain
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| 8 -- 0x0000470c -- _main
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| 9 -- 0x00002b40 -- __start
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| 10 -- 0x00002970 -- start
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| Thread 2:
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| srr0: 0x90054388 srr1: 0x0200f030 cr: 0x24008244 xer: 0x00000000 lr: 0x90070be8 ctr: 0x90054380
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| r0: 0xffffffd9 r8: 0x91468918 r16: 0x00000000 r24: 0x00000000
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| r1: 0xf0284b00 r9: 0xa0001fac r17: 0x00000000 r25: 0xa00009dc
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| r2: 0x00000001 r10: 0x00ac5323 r18: 0x00000000 r26: 0x0063fce4
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| r3: 0x00000031 r11: 0xa0006be0 r19: 0x00000000 r27: 0x0063fd10
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| r4: 0x00002c03 r12: 0x90054380 r20: 0x00000000 r28: 0xf0284bb0
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| r5: 0x00000000 r13: 0x00000000 r21: 0x00000000 r29: 0xa0001fac
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| r6: 0x00ac5323 r14: 0x00000000 r22: 0x00000000 r30: 0xa0001fac
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| r7: 0xf0284d58 r15: 0x00000000 r23: 0x00000000 r31: 0x900709dc
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| 0 -- 0x90054388 -- _semaphore_timedwait_signal_trap
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| 1 -- 0x90070be8 -- _pthread_cond_timedwait_relative_np
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| 2 -- 0x914696ac -- __ZN7CAGuard7WaitForEy
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| 3 -- 0x914695bc -- __ZN7CAGuard9WaitUntilEy
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| 4 -- 0x91467800 -- __ZN11HP_IOThread8WorkLoopEv
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| 5 -- 0x91467498 -- __ZN11HP_IOThread11ThreadEntryEPS_
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| 6 -- 0x914582c4 -- __ZN9CAPThread5EntryEPS_
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| 7 -- 0x9002bd08 -- __pthread_body
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| Thread 3:
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| srr0: 0x9003288c srr1: 0x0000d030 cr: 0x82000002 xer: 0x00000000 lr: 0x33332814 ctr: 0x90032880
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| r0: 0x00000007 r8: 0x00000000 r16: 0x00000000 r24: 0x00000000
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| r1: 0xf00807d0 r9: 0xa0010204 r17: 0x00000000 r25: 0x00000000
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| r2: 0x000000dc r10: 0x90032824 r18: 0x00000000 r26: 0xf0080bec
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| r3: 0x000006de r11: 0x42000008 r19: 0x00000000 r27: 0x000ef5f0
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| r4: 0x00000000 r12: 0x90032880 r20: 0x00000000 r28: 0x00000001
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| r5: 0x00000000 r13: 0x00000000 r21: 0x00000000 r29: 0x000006de
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| r6: 0x00000000 r14: 0x00000000 r22: 0x00000000 r30: 0x00000002
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| r7: 0x00000000 r15: 0x00000000 r23: 0x00000000 r31: 0x333325c8
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| 0 -- 0x9003288c -- _wait4
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| 1 -- 0x33332814 -- _OCCHandleException
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| 2 -- 0x33331e34 -- _OCCExc_catch_exception_raise_state_identity
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| 3 -- 0x333329cc -- __Xexception_raise_state_identity
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| 4 -- 0x33332adc -- _OCCExc_server
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| 5 -- 0x33331ee0 -- +[OCCCrashCatcher(MachPrivate) _handleExceptions]
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| 6 -- 0x92bf6118 -- _forkThreadForFunction
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| 7 -- 0x9002bd08 -- __pthread_body
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| Thread 4:
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| srr0: 0x9002c3c8 srr1: 0x0000f030 cr: 0x24000084 xer: 0x00000000 lr: 0x90030eac ctr: 0x9002c3c0
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| r0: 0xffffffdb r8: 0xf0101a00 r16: 0x00000000 r24: 0x00000000
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| r1: 0xf0101c80 r9: 0xa0001fac r17: 0x00000000 r25: 0x00000000
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| r2: 0x00000001 r10: 0x90a3f628 r18: 0x00000000 r26: 0xa0000cdc
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| r3: 0x00002d03 r11: 0xa0006bf4 r19: 0x00000000 r27: 0x00623778
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| r4: 0x00002e03 r12: 0x9002c3c0 r20: 0x00000000 r28: 0xa0001fac
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| r5: 0x000003e8 r13: 0x00000000 r21: 0x00000000 r29: 0x006237a4
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| r6: 0xffffffff r14: 0x00000000 r22: 0x00000000 r30: 0xa0001fac
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| r7: 0x000000ff r15: 0x00000000 r23: 0x00000000 r31: 0x90030cdc
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| 0 -- 0x9002c3c8 -- _semaphore_wait_signal_trap
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| 1 -- 0x90030eac -- _pthread_cond_wait
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| 2 -- 0x92bfd284 -- -[NSConditionLock lockWhenCondition:]
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| 3 -- 0x001548a4 -- -[SoundChannelProcessor(Private) _processQueue]
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| 4 -- 0x0015483c -- -[SoundChannelProcessor processQueueForever:]
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| 5 -- 0x92bf6118 -- _forkThreadForFunction
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| 6 -- 0x9002bd08 -- __pthread_body
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| I think that your result with Griffin matches mine (didn't look at the crash report, but it sounds like the same issue, it crashes as soon as his model should be visible., but I am fascinated by Barabus actually working for you. Also, your second .dae for Barabus about half the size of mine, even though you followed the same steps. Maybe tomorrow I will post an actual video of what I am doing with Barabus, and also follow it through to trying it out in Oni to see if it really does crash as I assumed it would. I have a feeling that assuming Barabus/Motoko would crash based on Griffin crashing was a faulty premise, since we all know Griffin has the most issues. I guess I got tired of crashing Oni so I chickened out when it came time to try Motoko and Barabus with those bloated .daes.<br>
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| P.S.: I can't figure out anything from that crash report, though maybe someone else can. Sometimes I can read something in them, but not this time.<br>
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| P.P.S.: Thanks for putting your name in the filename you posted to the drop.io account, that will keep things from getting too confusing. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 22:52, 5 June 2008 (CEST)
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| Update: I did try to use Barabus in Oni after passing him through Blender and back out to a .oni file, and I did crash. But, Ed, I would love to know why your 2nd .dae for Barabus was only 284KB when mine (as seen in the drop.io) was 480KB. I looked for your Barabus upload to the drop.io and I don't see it. Do you still see it up there? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 18:28, 6 June 2008 (CEST)
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| ==Working with Blender part 2==
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| Sorry, I don't know what happened with the drop.io upload, it should be up now, I also included an export from my MacBook, but there was no material difference between the PPC and Intel version of Blender.
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| However, in comparing your file, I found the reason why your file is larger, but not the cause. For each body part you have a section for color array, which mine does not:
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| :<source id="mid-geo-color">
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| ::<float_array count="912" id="mid-geo-color-array">1.00000 1.00000 1.00000 </float_array>
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| :::<technique_common>
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| ::::<accessor count="228" source="#mid-geo-color-array" stride="4">
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| :::::<param type="float" name="R"></param>
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| :::::<param type="float" name="G"></param>
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| :::::<param type="float" name="B"></param>
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| :::::<param type="float" name="A"></param>
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| ::::</accessor>
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| :::</technique_common>
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| :</source>
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| Note: There were a lot more "1.00000" in the float array but I deleted them to save space.
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| [[User:EdT|EdT]] 05:02, 7 June 2008 (CEST)
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| :Ed, I see you're using a different version of Blender on your 2 Macs. Not that it should matter, but better be aware of that kind of thing, and maybe synchronize the Blender versions to rule out minor, distractive differences in the output. Another thing that definitely ''does'' matter is the version/features of Python, which Blender relies on for most of the import/export and even some internal stuff. Python scripts are more or less messy and may have issues with certain releases of Python: typically "too recent" Python versions shouldn't be a problem but, again, it's best if you know what your Python version is and say it out loud.
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| :I'm rather surprised that you didn't figure out the basic reason for the crashes right away, Ed, because you've been there before: too many points (over 2048) for certain body parts. In the case of Iritscen's Griffin, there are 4457 points for the head in the TRBS, so it's no wonder Oni crashes when it comes to drawing him. As for the more specific reason why there are so many points, it's also something you've encountered before for your "own" Motoko: non-smooth normals, which results in a faceted look and makes the point count increase 6-fold or so. For Konoko this still works, even with cel-shading on, but with HD Griffin, well, you get 4457 points even without cel-shading: blam.
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| :Now, this would all be perfectly manageable with OniSplit's -normals tag, which is supposed to calculate smooth normals and make those faceted models both lighter and better-looking. But there is one intriguing point: -normals fails to work with, e.g., the Barabas exported by Blender, i.e., he will yield a faceted TRBS with an exaggerated point count, whether you use the -normals tag or not. This ''may'' be due to a "feature" of the Collada plugin, but we're not sure yet: if it will require a new version of OniSplit; if it will require a new version of the Collada plugin; if Oni's models themselves have confusing mesh data (Barabas, for instance, has some weird thighs). Still investigating...
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| ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 14:21, 7 June 2008 (CEST)
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| ::Well, geyser, as you stated in earlier posts, is that I shouldn't "guess" about why something is going on, but investigate it. So regarding Griffin's head, I did not have the time to investigate the issue. As you are aware, I can import Iritscen's Griffin into Oni without crashing, if I use Cheetah3D to export the model to fbx and then use FBXConverter to convert it to .dae. Also, I used the -normals options when creating the Blender version.
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| ::I was wondering why Iritscen's .dae version was larger, so that's what I looked into. That's when I did discovered that Iritscen's Blender .dae export is including the '''<source id="pelvis-geo-color">''' for each body part which caused his .dae size to be much larger than the original .dae
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| ::Since I really don't use Blender anymore, I didn't have it on my Intel Mac, so I just got the latest version of Blender, just to see if it was the Intel version of Blender which was causing the larger .dae size (which it did not).
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| ::I had Python 2.3.3 on my PPC desktop (Now updating to 2.5.2), and Python 2.5 on my Intel Mac.
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| ::[[User:EdT|EdT]] 16:00, 7 June 2008 (CEST)
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