19,993
edits
Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions
Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events (view source)
Revision as of 05:08, 23 April 2025
, 23 Aprilmissed fixing these two add'l links when the image was moved in 2023
m (→The Scratch: duality) |
m (missed fixing these two add'l links when the image was moved in 2023) |
||
| (40 intermediate revisions by 2 users not shown) | |||
| Line 63: | Line 63: | ||
::::::::::::::::Okay, I get it now that you've explained that the Phase and the veil are the same in your mind, since the other side is not being explored or glimpsed clearly. I still think it's a mistake to lump them together in a single term, because from my standpoint I want to know exactly what is on the other side. If the only people using the term "Phase" (according to your definition) are some scientists within the story, that would make sense because it reflects their lack of knowledge, but if we also use the term, it discourages us from deciding what's really on the other side — an alternate-universe Earth? a past Earth? another type of universe altogether? But perhaps this is a case where you value ambiguity and I eschew it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::::Okay, I get it now that you've explained that the Phase and the veil are the same in your mind, since the other side is not being explored or glimpsed clearly. I still think it's a mistake to lump them together in a single term, because from my standpoint I want to know exactly what is on the other side. If the only people using the term "Phase" (according to your definition) are some scientists within the story, that would make sense because it reflects their lack of knowledge, but if we also use the term, it discourages us from deciding what's really on the other side — an alternate-universe Earth? a past Earth? another type of universe altogether? But perhaps this is a case where you value ambiguity and I eschew it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::::::I am investing more brains into this than I used to, so this is no longer a case of "procrastinated ambiguity" on my part. Rather, I am still brainstorming, whereas you seem to have a rather complete wishlist already. That said, you're also not 100% clear as for "what is on the other side" (even assuming you could "know for sure" somehow). First you hint at alien ingerence from beyond the veil (as if from an alternate universe or Earth), then it turns out that it's echoes from a distant past, and finally they're not echoes at all, just remote control from the seabed. Even if you see this as a carefully constructed series of revelations where you as a writer know ''exactly'' what's going on (i.e. that it's all here-and-now-ish, at least the Diluvian survivors) -- you are not saying how the Diluvians contracted Daodan powers in the first place, and where from (if it's from the Phase, then doesn't that mean that there ''is'' an alternate Earth/universe out there? and if so, just what have you disambiguated, really?). Also, what about Screamers? Are they also from a past Earth? It's OK not to know, and you don't have to lay it all out in advance. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:52, 4 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::::::I am investing more brains into this than I used to, so this is no longer a case of "procrastinated ambiguity" on my part. Rather, I am still brainstorming, whereas you seem to have a rather complete wishlist already. That said, you're also not 100% clear as for "what is on the other side" (even assuming you could "know for sure" somehow). First you hint at alien ingerence from beyond the veil (as if from an alternate universe or Earth), then it turns out that it's echoes from a distant past, and finally they're not echoes at all, just remote control from the seabed. Even if you see this as a carefully constructed series of revelations where you as a writer know ''exactly'' what's going on (i.e. that it's all here-and-now-ish, at least the Diluvian survivors) -- you are not saying how the Diluvians contracted Daodan powers in the first place, and where from (if it's from the Phase, then doesn't that mean that there ''is'' an alternate Earth/universe out there? and if so, just what have you disambiguated, really?). Also, what about Screamers? Are they also from a past Earth? It's OK not to know, and you don't have to lay it all out in advance. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:52, 4 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::::::Indeed, I don't really have the answers to the questions you brought up about what's on the other side of the phase veil. All the more reason not to lump two different concepts together under one word, which inhibits further thought on the subject. I'll continue to use my own terminology for this reason. Anyway, my rough idea on the subject was that the Diluvians invented the Daodan, which was why I was using the term "Daomen" for them in my writing. But it's not that I have everything worked out and decided already. I've had to spend this much time, writing this many words, just to convey to you what I had already written elsewhere. As with Hardy's words on the forum, there's a strange reluctance on your part to read what others have written unless it's placed directly in front of you, at which point you seem open to responding to the material. Should I paste his posts onto this page as well? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::The "Phase" moniker could be used by scientists and laymen alike, not unlike "Space". (When people say "Space", they can mean Earth orbit, outer space, distant galaxies and nebulae, stars and exoplanets, etc.) People naturally make the distinction between where they are and where they aren't. "Zero-phase Earth" is where people live and do science, and "out-of-phaseness" can be perceived more or less collectively and indiscriminately (disambiguating when needed, just as for Space). As briefly mentioned in a footnote on that other page, it's completely OK to treat "near" and "far" out-of-phaseness as a continuum, at least a priori. There can be any number of "alien Earths" out there, or there could be just one or two of those, or there could be none (i.e. there is just the "veil" -- impenetrable, getting thicker and more chaotic as you push in -- that allows you to boomerang back to Earth at a different place or time, but doesn't have a threshold depth past which you'd cross over to a new world). As another consideration, Phase properties don't need to be constant in time. Oni's world apparently saw a "phase emergence" in the late XX century that either was spontaneous or had something to do with the Diluvians. So maybe in the XIX century, even with the best probing technology, scientists wouldn't have detected much of a "veil", let alone "other worlds" -- and, conversely, with fully awake Diluvians (or an otherwise much larger Phase presence) there could be stable portals into "alien Earths", starting with the Screamer homeworld mentioned by Hardy. All these possibilities can unfold over time, because the Phase is subject to change. And it can seriously spice up the post-Oni world even if there isn't much of a fight with Diluvians per se. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:52, 4 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::::::The "Phase" moniker could be used by scientists and laymen alike, not unlike "Space". (When people say "Space", they can mean Earth orbit, outer space, distant galaxies and nebulae, stars and exoplanets, etc.) People naturally make the distinction between where they are and where they aren't. "Zero-phase Earth" is where people live and do science, and "out-of-phaseness" can be perceived more or less collectively and indiscriminately (disambiguating when needed, just as for Space). As briefly mentioned in a footnote on that other page, it's completely OK to treat "near" and "far" out-of-phaseness as a continuum, at least a priori. There can be any number of "alien Earths" out there, or there could be just one or two of those, or there could be none (i.e. there is just the "veil" -- impenetrable, getting thicker and more chaotic as you push in -- that allows you to boomerang back to Earth at a different place or time, but doesn't have a threshold depth past which you'd cross over to a new world). As another consideration, Phase properties don't need to be constant in time. Oni's world apparently saw a "phase emergence" in the late XX century that either was spontaneous or had something to do with the Diluvians. So maybe in the XIX century, even with the best probing technology, scientists wouldn't have detected much of a "veil", let alone "other worlds" -- and, conversely, with fully awake Diluvians (or an otherwise much larger Phase presence) there could be stable portals into "alien Earths", starting with the Screamer homeworld mentioned by Hardy. All these possibilities can unfold over time, because the Phase is subject to change. And it can seriously spice up the post-Oni world even if there isn't much of a fight with Diluvians per se. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:52, 4 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::P.S. About the Phase/veil -- "you can warp/travel through it, but you can't live there permanently" -- except maybe if you're immaterial? In the case of Screaming Cells and Daodan entities, there are no clear rules that would prevent them from living "in" the veil, so to speak -- as temporary/timeless disturbances of this ever-changing "fringe/hub world". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:42, 20 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::P.S. About the Phase/veil -- "you can warp/travel through it, but you can't live there permanently" -- except maybe if you're immaterial? In the case of Screaming Cells and Daodan entities, there are no clear rules that would prevent them from living "in" the veil, so to speak -- as temporary/timeless disturbances of this ever-changing "fringe/hub world". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:42, 20 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
| Line 68: | Line 69: | ||
::::::::::::Sounds interesting. I have some material in my Oni 2 notes as well about life-draining whips. Though it's rather difficult to make them work in a 3D game, but I suppose it's been done here and there. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::Sounds interesting. I have some material in my Oni 2 notes as well about life-draining whips. Though it's rather difficult to make them work in a 3D game, but I suppose it's been done here and there. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::The Final Fantasy movie offers a good visual image of how it could work/look (whip/claw going straight through a body -- unless stopped by a special shield -- and ripping out some fancy looking "life force"). Except of course I'd change it to moderate damage instead of an insta-kill. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:34, 19 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::The Final Fantasy movie offers a good visual image of how it could work/look (whip/claw going straight through a body -- unless stopped by a special shield -- and ripping out some fancy looking "life force"). Except of course I'd change it to moderate damage instead of an insta-kill. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:34, 19 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::If it were up to me, I wouldn't keep much of those "[https://3dbrute.com/homunculus-loxodontus/ Waiters]" or their human/Daodan proxies, except for the notion that the Phase is tied to "Gaia", i.e., that you can't do phase tech in outer space. It would explain why Oni's sci-fi-powered civilization isn't actively colonizing Mars or the Moon, and it would keep the plot "Earth-centered" in a [[wp:Ring Around the Sun (novel)|Ring Around the Sun]] kind of way. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:06, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::If it were up to me, I wouldn't keep much of those "[http://web.archive.org/web/20201001044704/https://3dbrute.com/homunculus-loxodontus/ Waiters]" or their human/Daodan proxies, except for the notion that the Phase is tied to "Gaia", i.e., that you can't do phase tech in outer space. It would explain why Oni's sci-fi-powered civilization isn't actively colonizing Mars or the Moon, and it would keep the plot "Earth-centered" in a [[wp:Ring Around the Sun (novel)|Ring Around the Sun]] kind of way. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:06, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::To me, it would be much more surprising if the world of Oni ''was'' doing anything advanced in space. Where do you think ''we'll'' be in 12 years? Even colonizing the moon? Doubtful (sadly). Oni's world doesn't feel a lot more advanced than ours except for their phase tech, and there's nothing in the canonical depiction of that technology which would aid in settling another world. I would expect Oni's world to be ''less'' advanced in matters of space than ours, seeing as they have some very time-consuming and expensive issues to deal with here on Earth. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::To me, it would be much more surprising if the world of Oni ''was'' doing anything advanced in space. Where do you think ''we'll'' be in 12 years? Even colonizing the moon? Doubtful (sadly). Oni's world doesn't feel a lot more advanced than ours except for their phase tech, and there's nothing in the canonical depiction of that technology which would aid in settling another world. I would expect Oni's world to be ''less'' advanced in matters of space than ours, seeing as they have some very time-consuming and expensive issues to deal with here on Earth. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::Colonizing the Moon or Mars would make sense in Oni's world, precisely because of the overwhelming issues (if the biosphere is lost, then there isn't anywhere else to go but space -- Ergo-Proxy-style, perhaps, or to Mars if the population is sufficiently depleted), but indeed we don't see much of a drive towards space conquest from the WCG: "dystopia sweet dystopia". I'd rather not rationalize that aspect right now, especially if there's an agreement (we just know that, somehow, there are satellites in orbit, and not much beyond that). As for our world, Musk&Co have been doing fine lately, and I am fairly confident we'll see at least a big Moon base in our lifetime. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 01:50, 11 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::Colonizing the Moon or Mars would make sense in Oni's world, precisely because of the overwhelming issues (if the biosphere is lost, then there isn't anywhere else to go but space -- Ergo-Proxy-style, perhaps, or to Mars if the population is sufficiently depleted), but indeed we don't see much of a drive towards space conquest from the WCG: "dystopia sweet dystopia". I'd rather not rationalize that aspect right now, especially if there's an agreement (we just know that, somehow, there are satellites in orbit, and not much beyond that). As for our world, Musk&Co have been doing fine lately, and I am fairly confident we'll see at least a big Moon base in our lifetime. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 01:50, 11 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
| Line 91: | Line 92: | ||
:::::::::::::::::I didn't say (Vanilla) Hasegawa was ecologically motivated! Poor choice of words, probably. I said he'd "let the world move on", but really meaning he couldn't help it going to hell (or could he? as you know, the whole point of TNZ is that he thought he ''could'', insofar as the Syndicate could be infiltrated and used as an "alienated" tool, for ACC retro-fitting and who knows what else.). So he (the Vanilla, non-TNZ Hasegawa) is humbly powerless in that respect, rather than deliberately letting nature be nature -- which means we're on the same page again, congratulations. Maybe we shouldn't be looking for disagreement in every sentence, instead finding favorable interpretations? ^_^ (maybe say things like: "assuming that by this-and-that you mean such-and-such, it looks like we agree; let me know if you meant something else") --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:52, 4 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::::::I didn't say (Vanilla) Hasegawa was ecologically motivated! Poor choice of words, probably. I said he'd "let the world move on", but really meaning he couldn't help it going to hell (or could he? as you know, the whole point of TNZ is that he thought he ''could'', insofar as the Syndicate could be infiltrated and used as an "alienated" tool, for ACC retro-fitting and who knows what else.). So he (the Vanilla, non-TNZ Hasegawa) is humbly powerless in that respect, rather than deliberately letting nature be nature -- which means we're on the same page again, congratulations. Maybe we shouldn't be looking for disagreement in every sentence, instead finding favorable interpretations? ^_^ (maybe say things like: "assuming that by this-and-that you mean such-and-such, it looks like we agree; let me know if you meant something else") --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:52, 4 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::::::As for your "suggestion that the symbiotes are linked in a life-or-death way to the Wilderness" -- apart from the Wilderness fixation I'm all for it, even though it's a bit of a trope. I've already said that the Wilderness (with its "alien" pathogens and relentless spreading) may not be the only trouble caused by the Diluvians: if the Phase becomes more and more active as the Diluvians awake from their stasis (e.g., to relocate), then there will be more and more phase glitches worldwide, portals to other worlds, Screamer invasions... in short, fun times to live in. But, conversely, when/if the Diluvians are killed (or go back to sleep), it is entirely possible that the Phase will collapse, i.e., entities will no longer be able to travel through the "veil" as easily or at all, and those that rely on the "veil" (like Konoko's Chrysalis?) will be disrupted. Whether this should kill Konoko is debatable -- mostly it depends on how dramatic (or trope-y) you want the story to be, and I suppose there will be ample opportunity to argue about this later. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:52, 4 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::::::As for your "suggestion that the symbiotes are linked in a life-or-death way to the Wilderness" -- apart from the Wilderness fixation I'm all for it, even though it's a bit of a trope. I've already said that the Wilderness (with its "alien" pathogens and relentless spreading) may not be the only trouble caused by the Diluvians: if the Phase becomes more and more active as the Diluvians awake from their stasis (e.g., to relocate), then there will be more and more phase glitches worldwide, portals to other worlds, Screamer invasions... in short, fun times to live in. But, conversely, when/if the Diluvians are killed (or go back to sleep), it is entirely possible that the Phase will collapse, i.e., entities will no longer be able to travel through the "veil" as easily or at all, and those that rely on the "veil" (like Konoko's Chrysalis?) will be disrupted. Whether this should kill Konoko is debatable -- mostly it depends on how dramatic (or trope-y) you want the story to be, and I suppose there will be ample opportunity to argue about this later. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:52, 4 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::::::The problem from a dramatic perspective, of course, is that if the Chrysalis merely conveys extra-human power to the symbiote, whether that power comes from the Wilderness, through the phase veil, etc., then the natural assumption is that cutting off that power source merely results in de-powered symbiotes. There's nothing dramatic about that, as Konoko might even be happy to become normal. However, it's true that my life-or-death angle isn't the most original idea. I'm not terribly attached to it. There are other potential sources of drama, most obviously, the cliffhanger from Oni: without the Chrysalis, we are all doomed; with it, we might turn into monsters. The notion I've suggested of being able to beat back the Wilderness, defeat the Daomen, etc. does not need to be a possibility if we don't want it to be. If the Wilderness' advance is unstoppable, or the build-up of toxins is, at least within the next decades, then people are going to die without Chrysalises. We could simply take this original cliffhanger as the crux of the sequel's drama. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::I wouldn't advise trivializing Oni canon and implying that the "straight" reading is that a WP is "just" a toxic waste dump, or that the origin of the waste is 100% industrial. We Do Not Know. Some elements of canon hint at a military origin for the waste (ghastly bioweapons that were either developed, tested or dumped in "easy to ignore" areas), or at unethical "rogue science" during the years preceding the WCG's firm technology control. A "phase twist" is also possible, like teleportation/annihilation experiments gone wrong, or phase-induced mutation of Earth organisms (not as elegant as the Chrysalis, but enough to make an impression on Hasegawa). You said "good points" to all of this down below -- when I said that Contaminated Zones weren't reduced to industrial dumps in Oni canon, and that there were lots of ways to detail them without resorting to alien ingerence. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:34, 19 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::I wouldn't advise trivializing Oni canon and implying that the "straight" reading is that a WP is "just" a toxic waste dump, or that the origin of the waste is 100% industrial. We Do Not Know. Some elements of canon hint at a military origin for the waste (ghastly bioweapons that were either developed, tested or dumped in "easy to ignore" areas), or at unethical "rogue science" during the years preceding the WCG's firm technology control. A "phase twist" is also possible, like teleportation/annihilation experiments gone wrong, or phase-induced mutation of Earth organisms (not as elegant as the Chrysalis, but enough to make an impression on Hasegawa). You said "good points" to all of this down below -- when I said that Contaminated Zones weren't reduced to industrial dumps in Oni canon, and that there were lots of ways to detail them without resorting to alien ingerence. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:34, 19 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::On a sidenote, I don't see a strong correlation with Nausicaa's and my work, so perhaps this Miyazaki manga is just an obsession of yours. I could easily reduce your ideas to references to existing works as well, but haven't done so. "There is nothing new under the sun." All we can do is try to present old ideas in a new light. Presuming that you can create anything truly novel is vanity. And putting words in my mouth to make my ideas seem more Nausicaa-like is especially rude, so please stop. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::On a sidenote, I don't see a strong correlation with Nausicaa's and my work, so perhaps this Miyazaki manga is just an obsession of yours. I could easily reduce your ideas to references to existing works as well, but haven't done so. "There is nothing new under the sun." All we can do is try to present old ideas in a new light. Presuming that you can create anything truly novel is vanity. And putting words in my mouth to make my ideas seem more Nausicaa-like is especially rude, so please stop. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
| Line 156: | Line 158: | ||
:::::::::::Communication with an alien mind is hard to get right, but a kaiju fight sequence is also not something that I'd recommend planning for an Oni sequel. However, perhaps there is no need for such creatures to surface or come ashore? If they are pelagic or abyssal, but possess a hivemind that (when awake) turns the aquasphere into a "thinking ocean", then supposedly they can cause tsunamis and wipe out most of the large cities -- yet they won't be able to do to much about deserts or mountain areas (at least at first). So the direct threat from the Diluvians' awakening seems manageable to me -- you just move further inland, find ways to counter the xenoforming processes (or adapt to them), and ultimately abandon Earth as a last resort. Remote "xenoimpregnation" and "indoctrination" by the Diluvians may be a problem, but probably such interference can be "screened" or "jammed" somehow, too (once you know it exists). The way I see it, the largest threat in this story may be a mere side effect of the Diluvians awakening -- namely, as their collective Daodan aura comes back to full power, it increases the Earth's "exposure"/openness to the Phase. Portals now open not just in labs or WPs, but all over the world: ball lightnings, Screamers and Mukade-knows-what-else... It doesn't matter if the Diluvians themselves are relatively placid -- once they're awake, there will be more "phase hazards" on the surface than ever before, warlords will be empowered with new weapons and entities, and civilization as we know it will take quite a blow (even if not in a doomsday kind of way). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::Communication with an alien mind is hard to get right, but a kaiju fight sequence is also not something that I'd recommend planning for an Oni sequel. However, perhaps there is no need for such creatures to surface or come ashore? If they are pelagic or abyssal, but possess a hivemind that (when awake) turns the aquasphere into a "thinking ocean", then supposedly they can cause tsunamis and wipe out most of the large cities -- yet they won't be able to do to much about deserts or mountain areas (at least at first). So the direct threat from the Diluvians' awakening seems manageable to me -- you just move further inland, find ways to counter the xenoforming processes (or adapt to them), and ultimately abandon Earth as a last resort. Remote "xenoimpregnation" and "indoctrination" by the Diluvians may be a problem, but probably such interference can be "screened" or "jammed" somehow, too (once you know it exists). The way I see it, the largest threat in this story may be a mere side effect of the Diluvians awakening -- namely, as their collective Daodan aura comes back to full power, it increases the Earth's "exposure"/openness to the Phase. Portals now open not just in labs or WPs, but all over the world: ball lightnings, Screamers and Mukade-knows-what-else... It doesn't matter if the Diluvians themselves are relatively placid -- once they're awake, there will be more "phase hazards" on the surface than ever before, warlords will be empowered with new weapons and entities, and civilization as we know it will take quite a blow (even if not in a doomsday kind of way). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::To be clear, I never planned to have an actual battle against a kaiju in Oni 2. It is totally doable, as plenty of video games have tackled the idea of fighting massive-scale bosses, but I don't think it's in keeping with Oni's spirit. The idea was to have just the hand of the alien enemy reaching through a phase portal, with the understanding that if the portal isn't closed soon, he'll be all the way through. The final battle would be against human-scale foes who serve the Diluvians, and it would probably be a timed battle. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::To be clear, I never planned to have an actual battle against a kaiju in Oni 2. It is totally doable, as plenty of video games have tackled the idea of fighting massive-scale bosses, but I don't think it's in keeping with Oni's spirit. The idea was to have just the hand of the alien enemy reaching through a phase portal, with the understanding that if the portal isn't closed soon, he'll be all the way through. The final battle would be against human-scale foes who serve the Diluvians, and it would probably be a timed battle. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::Here you go again with an "alien enemy" going for a very literal "land grab". Simply put, I'm against it: it's human motives in alien attire, and human-sized minions don't really help. Also, to me it sounds more like "Dunby 4" than "Oni 2", see the final battles of [https://half-life.fandom.com/wiki/Gene_Worm#Gallery HL:Opposing Force] or [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= | :::::::::::::Here you go again with an "alien enemy" going for a very literal "land grab". Simply put, I'm against it: it's human motives in alien attire, and human-sized minions don't really help. Also, to me it sounds more like "Dunby 4" than "Oni 2", see the final battles of [https://half-life.fandom.com/wiki/Gene_Worm#Gallery HL:Opposing Force] or [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URXzXyThaXE&t=79s Borderlands]{{ref|group=geyser|I hope you can appreciate Angel's eerily fitting advice in "Destroy the Destroyer": ''Don't give up! This creature may be immortal in its own realm, but in this reality it cannot survive without a host, and that makes it vulnerable. When it becomes flesh and blood, it can be hurt, even killed. You just need to know where to aim.}} -- and that's just off the top of a non-gamer's head. I'll try and present you with a final challenge concept that's more original and compelling (to me, of course). Off the top of my head, taking the fight ''inside'' of a giant alien is something I'm sure to bring up, so here goes: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNqSLisW6z0 Fiona and Sasha inside the Traveler]--[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::I don't know what to tell you. Every idea can be phrased as, "It's like X meets Y." That's the basis of the "elevator pitch". If it wouldn't seem spiteful, to make my point I'd do the same on this page for each of your ideas suggested so far. It seems counter-productive to dwell on the fact that something has been done before. I'll repeat myself: There is nothing new under the sun. The only thing that matters is whether a trope has been used to the point of cliché. The idea of aliens trying to take over the planet is indeed an old notion, going at least as far back as H.G. Wells. It's also not a new idea to interact with aliens who have no specific conscious purpose. I think what matters more than precedent is simply considering where the most dramatic potential, fun gameplay, or aesthetic enjoyment can be found, and going with that option. I certainly am not recommending a final boss fight where you have to shoot the portion of the alien that has entered our world, so there's no need to link to examples of such encounters from other games. That Borderlands battle, for instance, is boring as hell, so it's a good argument for human-scale enemies. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::I'm not in favor of the idea that the aliens control the ocean and can cause tsunamis. As you pointed out, a tsunami could be avoided by staying inland. So it's either world-ending (no way to fight back against a massive wave), or it's out of sight and of little importance to the characters you're controlling. It also changes the nature of the story's big threat from xenoforming to a more conventional end-of-world scenario. I like the rest of your suggestion, about the increase in phase activity or anomalies, though this could also be explained by the simple fact that humans invented phase tech and are finding an increasing number of ways to use it, perhaps unaware of the dangers that come with it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::I'm not in favor of the idea that the aliens control the ocean and can cause tsunamis. As you pointed out, a tsunami could be avoided by staying inland. So it's either world-ending (no way to fight back against a massive wave), or it's out of sight and of little importance to the characters you're controlling. It also changes the nature of the story's big threat from xenoforming to a more conventional end-of-world scenario. I like the rest of your suggestion, about the increase in phase activity or anomalies, though this could also be explained by the simple fact that humans invented phase tech and are finding an increasing number of ways to use it, perhaps unaware of the dangers that come with it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::As you have noted yourself the threat of increasingly awake/aware Diluvians is a hybrid one. Tsunamis (if any) are only part of the picture, and can be seen merely as a plot device for destroying familiar cityscapes and driving subsequent action into new locations. The influence of an increasingly active hivemind on the Wilderness is a much farther-reaching threat (explosive growth? you got it!), as well as the possible emergence of human proxies (another of your suggestions). As for the more general surge of phase anomalies -- whether a heightened Phase activity is spontaneous, man-made, or caused by Diluvian cycles, I am glad that you acknowledge the additional plot-driving potential of such a development (complementary to the Wilderness threat). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::As you have noted yourself the threat of increasingly awake/aware Diluvians is a hybrid one. Tsunamis (if any) are only part of the picture, and can be seen merely as a plot device for destroying familiar cityscapes and driving subsequent action into new locations. The influence of an increasingly active hivemind on the Wilderness is a much farther-reaching threat (explosive growth? you got it!), as well as the possible emergence of human proxies (another of your suggestions). As for the more general surge of phase anomalies -- whether a heightened Phase activity is spontaneous, man-made, or caused by Diluvian cycles, I am glad that you acknowledge the additional plot-driving potential of such a development (complementary to the Wilderness threat). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
| Line 166: | Line 169: | ||
:::::::::::::To reiterate, I never said anything about the aliens speaking English or communicating directly with humans at all. But it's helpful for storytelling and game design purposes if there are human servants of the aliens who can explain what their mission is. Any concern you might have about explaining things too clearly is simply a matter of style — the choices that are made in how the dialogue is written and staged — and way premature at this point. I see no reason to explain everything 100%, but it's also unsatisfactory in the extreme to have aliens that are simply acting without any explanation or spokesman. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::To reiterate, I never said anything about the aliens speaking English or communicating directly with humans at all. But it's helpful for storytelling and game design purposes if there are human servants of the aliens who can explain what their mission is. Any concern you might have about explaining things too clearly is simply a matter of style — the choices that are made in how the dialogue is written and staged — and way premature at this point. I see no reason to explain everything 100%, but it's also unsatisfactory in the extreme to have aliens that are simply acting without any explanation or spokesman. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::I didn't say your aliens would communicate in English, I just meant that fighting a kaiju, sci-fi-wise, is about as good an idea as speaking to one (that's probably a statement on our own communication skills, eh). As for explaining alien motives clearly or at all, indeed much of it is a matter of personal preference and style, and could be debated/polished later, but I feel like using this opportunity to debate/decide just how much there would be to explain. If you allow for the possibility that a Diluvian is really an early Earth organism exalted through Daodan symbiosis, then that supposed hyper-evolution took it straight to a cosmic level of awareness -- bypassing any notion of emotion, language, religion, science, culture, etc. The way I see it, those things don't just have an inhuman mindset, they don't even have any animal instincts besides survival -- and it's those raw survival reflexes (paired with godlike power) that lead to WP xenoforming, Phase resurgence, etc. Thus maybe we can have them placid (mostly), and leave the invasions to someone else (like Screamers, or "giants from beyond the veil"?)? Also, for what it's worth, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbNqPEqLa7o HERE] is what I regard as a decent rendition of communication with a primitive yet sentient lifeform. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::I didn't say your aliens would communicate in English, I just meant that fighting a kaiju, sci-fi-wise, is about as good an idea as speaking to one (that's probably a statement on our own communication skills, eh). As for explaining alien motives clearly or at all, indeed much of it is a matter of personal preference and style, and could be debated/polished later, but I feel like using this opportunity to debate/decide just how much there would be to explain. If you allow for the possibility that a Diluvian is really an early Earth organism exalted through Daodan symbiosis, then that supposed hyper-evolution took it straight to a cosmic level of awareness -- bypassing any notion of emotion, language, religion, science, culture, etc. The way I see it, those things don't just have an inhuman mindset, they don't even have any animal instincts besides survival -- and it's those raw survival reflexes (paired with godlike power) that lead to WP xenoforming, Phase resurgence, etc. Thus maybe we can have them placid (mostly), and leave the invasions to someone else (like Screamers, or "giants from beyond the veil"?)? Also, for what it's worth, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbNqPEqLa7o HERE] is what I regard as a decent rendition of communication with a primitive yet sentient lifeform. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::::I see no reason to elevate the Diluvians to a cosmic level of awareness. They can be smarter than your average pre-Permian without being all-knowing or tremendously wise. It's not very interesting to write omniscient or perfectly enlightened characters, not to mention probably impossible to do them justice. But to address your last point, the invasions can indeed be coming from another place and species. I think at that point the question comes up whether the Diluvians serve a purpose or whether they're a needless faction. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::In my view, the Diluvians may work best as a powerful catalyst for potential threats, rather than a threat per se. Also, if an enlightened Hallucigenia achieves a "cosmic level of awareness", it doesn't necessarily make it all-wise and all-knowing in our basic human sense. The enlightenment of such creatures (or of their collective hivemind) is not easily perceived at the human level, so it's OK to depict them on an "elemental" level instead: their increasing awareness stirs up the Phase like there's no tomorrow, and that's as much as we can ask of them as writers. They can mess with people's minds Solaris-style, too --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 17:29, 28 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::You bring up good points about why it might have been a choice not to pump out large numbers of symbiotes from either the Syndicate or the TCTF, but it doesn't feel like the reason that the story is implying. Why is Muro stealing experimental gene surgery equipment? Why are only "secondary" symbiotes being created, unlike Muro and Mai? The impression one gets is that knowledge has indeed been lost (taken) by the absent Hasegawa. Kerr, of course, only absconded with Mai and the Chrysalis based off her DNA, and it's possible that he too is unable to replicate Hasegawa's research. Still, isn't it rather odd that neither Kerr nor the Syndicate have enough data, years later, to replicate Hasegawa's work? You may say that Muro is capable of doing so, but simply sees the creation of full-fledged symbiotes as too dangerous… but that's not what his STURMANDERUNG plan suggested: "11) Symbiote candidate selection and implantation". Muro was working on a way to elevate others to his level, otherwise who would even be left to work under him? So whatever happened before Oni starts that caused the loss of knowledge and ability regarding the Daodan, there's a major lacuna in the story here that has to be filled in Oni 2. Outside interference makes as much sense as a theory as anything else does. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::You bring up good points about why it might have been a choice not to pump out large numbers of symbiotes from either the Syndicate or the TCTF, but it doesn't feel like the reason that the story is implying. Why is Muro stealing experimental gene surgery equipment? Why are only "secondary" symbiotes being created, unlike Muro and Mai? The impression one gets is that knowledge has indeed been lost (taken) by the absent Hasegawa. Kerr, of course, only absconded with Mai and the Chrysalis based off her DNA, and it's possible that he too is unable to replicate Hasegawa's research. Still, isn't it rather odd that neither Kerr nor the Syndicate have enough data, years later, to replicate Hasegawa's work? You may say that Muro is capable of doing so, but simply sees the creation of full-fledged symbiotes as too dangerous… but that's not what his STURMANDERUNG plan suggested: "11) Symbiote candidate selection and implantation". Muro was working on a way to elevate others to his level, otherwise who would even be left to work under him? So whatever happened before Oni starts that caused the loss of knowledge and ability regarding the Daodan, there's a major lacuna in the story here that has to be filled in Oni 2. Outside interference makes as much sense as a theory as anything else does. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::First off, the STURMANDERUNG consoles are very, very badly written, from the funkily-indexed "plan for world domination" to the infamous "increase percentage", and finally Konoko's "monkey hacking". Now is as good a time as any to say that I'd probably rewrite it, and it will help if we can agree on the implications that we'd like to convey when and if that happens (because self-centered overstatement is a sin ^_^ ). Some of the most obvious things I'd fix: steps (4), (8) and (12) are missing, and (10) is the same as (6) -- carried over, possibly, and leading towards (14) -- whereas ACC sabotage starts as early as (1) and (2) and then ACCs are never mentioned until (13). More generally, the timeline of mountain-compound construction, ACC sabotage and satellite uplinking needs to be clarified -- at least to the point where those consoles don't look like something Hardy threw together at the last minute. And of course I'd try and expand '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' into something relatable. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::First off, the STURMANDERUNG consoles are very, very badly written, from the funkily-indexed "plan for world domination" to the infamous "increase percentage", and finally Konoko's "monkey hacking". Now is as good a time as any to say that I'd probably rewrite it, and it will help if we can agree on the implications that we'd like to convey when and if that happens (because self-centered overstatement is a sin ^_^ ). Some of the most obvious things I'd fix: steps (4), (8) and (12) are missing, and (10) is the same as (6) -- carried over, possibly, and leading towards (14) -- whereas ACC sabotage starts as early as (1) and (2) and then ACCs are never mentioned until (13). More generally, the timeline of mountain-compound construction, ACC sabotage and satellite uplinking needs to be clarified -- at least to the point where those consoles don't look like something Hardy threw together at the last minute. And of course I'd try and expand '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' into something relatable. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::: | :::::::::::::::Okay, the Sturdmanderung consoles are indeed rather problematic, so I won't try to argue anything from them. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::Sorry to be the bearer of accurate canon, but "secondary symbiotes" are never mentioned in Oni. All we know is that Konoko is one of two | ::::::::::::::Second -- face it, man: your "it doesn't feel like the reason that the story is implying" and "the impression one gets is that..." are entirely subjective. You are suggesting a "loss of knowledge and ability regarding the Daodan" as fact, I will argue to the contrary. And, if it is true that Diluvian interference "makes as much sense as a theory as anything else does", then by all means ''do'' hear out what I make of Oni's material -- spoiler: in my view, there isn't much of a lacuna to fill --, and just what the "anything else" might be. Simple things first, let me reiterate that even if Kerr brought some project notes along (like, on a portable drive) -- and thus was easily cornered by Griffin when it was time to implant and monitor Mai's Chrysalis --, the WCG's regulations wouldn't have allowed Griffin to banalize symbiosis and to experiment on other people.{{ref|group=geyser|'''G.C.''' How do you plead?<br>'''J.J.''' Not guilty! My experiments are only theoretical, and completely within legal boundaries.<br>'''G.C.''' We believe you actually... created something.<br>'''J.J.''' "Created something?" Hah! ''That'' would be... irresponsible! and unethical! I would never, ever... <Stitch is revealed> ...make... more than one.}} Griffin is probably frustrated about this, but his hands are tied by the Directorate, and this frustration escalates to the science team.{{ref|[[Quotes/Consoles#Sytropin|'''Quote:''']] Project goals remain unclear: Commander Griffin seems content to stabilize the host/Daodan symbiote for as long as possible. If she is intended as a contingency of some kind the team has recommended cryofreeze as an all around safer alternative to keeping the organism active and evolving, however slowly.}} That's why Kerr ''et al'' can't do much besides observing Konoko's "wild" transformation, trying their best to keep it sedated, and recommending cryo as the only sensible approach. Some of those scientists would be happy to have more test subjects, but they're prisoners in this, so they don't get to call any shots. And they can't try anything too daring on Konoko, either, or they may ruin Griffin's only trump card against Muro. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::: | ::::::::::::::Sorry to be the bearer of accurate canon, but "secondary symbiotes" are never mentioned in Oni. All we know is that Konoko is one of two{{ref|group=geyser|Strictly speaking, when the sci-goon says "You...you're the other prime symbiote!", this ''may'' imply -- even if a bit of a stretch -- that Konoko is merely the only prime symbiote ''outside the sci-goon's ordinary scope'', i.e., that there may be multiple ''familiar'' prime symbiotes at the Syndicate, but only one that has been grown over at the TCTF, and thus qualifies as an "other" (unfamiliar), or even (arguably) as a "''the'' other". Also, there may have been another prime symbiote at the Syndicate, but if he's dead-ish now (like, I dunno, from a broken neck), then that would leave only Muro as "the" prime symbiote, and Mai as "the (only) other".}} "prime symbiotes", as implied by [[Quotes/Speech#Is_that_a_yes?|THIS]] sci-goon and by the [[Quotes/Consoles#CHAPTER_12_._SINS_OF_THE_FATHER|Science Prison consoles]], where Konoko is labeled '''1B(h)''' -- likely because '''1A(h)''' (Muro's Chrysalis) was created first. We do not know what any of the other symbiotes are called -- "secondary" ("accessory"), "subsequent" ("post-prime"), "lesser" ("subprime"), "composite" ("reductible")... -- and we don't know a priori that "secondary" symbiotes are in any way inferior to "prime" ones. Maybe their only handicap with respect to a prime/emeritus symbiote such as Muro is that their Chrysalises were grown/implanted much later in time (and into grown adults) -- and therefore Muro, who has been working on his symbiosis for years, is confident that none of the later-implanted symbiotes will end up as a clear rival to him. In some aspects, later symbiotes may be ''more'' advanced if anything, as compared to prime/emeritus ones -- more stable, easier to implant and monitor (not needing to be implanted at a young age, and not requiring a dedicated scientific team to look after them 24/7). Developing a protocol that allows mass production and implantation of Chrysalises, without it becoming a QA/support nightmare -- that's more than enough justification for the many years of "post-prime" research that went into "Daodan core technology" (i.e., again, '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' -- whatever they are). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::::I maintain that it makes no sense that we see so few symbiotes in Oni if the technology exists at both TCTF and Syndicate to make more. Apparently we read certain parts of the story very differently, and there's no resolving that, no matter how many words we throw at it. The fact remains that the only two prime symbiotes are the ones that were implanted with the Chrysalises grown under Hasegawa's supervision. You can speculate all you want about additional symbiotes, and of course that's an avenue that one could choose to explore in a sequel if one decided to insert new facts into the original story, but it's very clear that Hardy had two prime symbiotes in mind, Muro and Mai, and that something had happened, after the development of these two Chryalises, to explain why more could not be made. Don't bother posting any more "rebuttals" to this, as I won't be convinced by them. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::Speaking of "Daodan core technology", here's another real-time brainstorming idea{{ref|group=geyser|Actually, that's only half true: it feels like well-forgotten old stuff rather than 100% new brainstorming. When I elaborated on Barabas [[Barabas#Barabas_as_power_without_alienation|HERE]], I already brought up the "paradigm of controlled technology" and implied that new symbiotes (at least Barabas) may have been deliberately limited in their abilities, e.g., by installing a barrier/interface that keeps the Chrysalis from infiltrating the brain. However, at that point I hadn't given much thought to the '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' codes, and didn't read much into "Daodan core technology", either.}} that just might shed some light on what's going on. Remember how Barabas looks fairly close to Imago-as-we-know-it (livid and veiny, horns, funny eyes) and has superpowers, yet doesn't seem to go into overpower, and overall seems inferior to Mai (a tradeoff, it would seem, for remaining sane, articulate, and mostly human, despite a near-complete transformation)? The same can be said of Mukade, if we don't imply some outstanding "emeritus" status for him, and pretend that he's just "another Barabas": with his own set of superpowers, more formidable as a foe than Barabas -- but also, it would seem, less stable on the mental level (with animal pulsions, mad talk, etc), and still no match for Mai (assuming he didn't lose on purpose) and no sign of Daodan overpower. Now, could it be that the "Daodan core technology" is a ''follow-up'' to prime Daodan symbiosis, which takes care of the issues identified by Kerr's colleagues, and allows the implantation of a Chrysalis to an adult, with little risk of instability and virtually no need for advanced monitoring? In this view, the word "core" does not have the basic meaning of "let's develop some generic technology for the core/essence of that process/entity that we know as Daodan". Instead we're looking at a qualitatively new protocol for Daodan symbiosis -- one that involves a new device or concept called "core" (or "Daodan core") --, and it's this novel "core approach" to symbiosis that (7 - '''ssob''') and (9 - '''uwlb''') are about: they are experiments with adult hosts, whose transformation is constrained/restricted/directed in some way or other, as opposed to prime symbiotes for whom it is "bound to run free". One could assume, for simplicity, that '''uwlb''' (9) is Mukade (the more powerful of the two, but also a more deeply alienated freak) and '''ssob''' (7) is Barabas (a more stable version, even if somewhat weak-ass as compared to a "prime"). Together they pave the way for mass production -- not of Muro's peers (of course not), but of ''Barabases'' -- "stabilized"/"tamed"/"constrained" symbiotes, strong enough to survive in a toxic world, but not so strong as to challenge Muro's authority -- an ideal balance of muscle and loyalty. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::Summing up, I don't see much in Oni canon to support the view that "11) Symbiote candidate selection and implantation" is about Muro trying to surround himself with "prime"-quality ''peer'' symbiotes (and failing for whatever reason, making do with "secondary" ones instead). Rather, whoever "sells his soul to [Muro] for a Chrysalis" (as Mai puts it) will get to be a '''"ssob"''' -- reassuringly stable mentally if not physically, even if somewhat limited with respect to Muro himself. From Muro's point of view, that's ideal, and -- judging by Barabas's devotion to Muro -- Muro's minions would have been quite content with "subprime" faculties. Closer allies may get to be '''"uwlb"'''s -- powerful in their own way, but still no match for Muro (supposedly). That of course leaves open the question of Hasegawa's whereabouts, whether he left and (if he did) how much damage he did by leaving. With the Diluvians added to the equation, an extra question would be whether they were "aware" of Muro's STURMANDERUNG and were trying to counteract it (at least the Daodan research part). My position regarding the latter is a bit like Laplace's when asked why God was never mentioned in his ''Mécanique celeste'': [[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#I_had_no_need_of_that_hypothesis|"I had no need of that hypothesis."]]{{ref|group=geyser|Even if Laplace didn't feel the need to mention God in his treatise about celestial bodies, he did mention a [[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#Laplace's_demon|demon]]. Unlike Maxwell's demon, Laplace's demon is huge, and is really God in disguise.}} --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::P.S. I don't have backronyms ready for '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' (and if we rewrite that part, then we can always pick our own acronyms), but I really think they're an important piece of the puzzle when it comes to understanding TITAN (whatever it is) and the STURMANDERUNG project as planned out by Muro. Spontaneous ideas that came to mind are "Stabilized Symbiosis / Organic Body" (Barabas) and "Unstable Within Liminal Bounds" (Mukade). I also haven't addressed the part where Muro is stealing experimental gene surgery equipment; I might finish rationalizing that soon. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::::P.S. I don't have backronyms ready for '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' (and if we rewrite that part, then we can always pick our own acronyms), but I really think they're an important piece of the puzzle when it comes to understanding TITAN (whatever it is) and the STURMANDERUNG project as planned out by Muro. Spontaneous ideas that came to mind are "Stabilized Symbiosis / Organic Body" (Barabas) and "Unstable Within Liminal Bounds" (Mukade). I also haven't addressed the part where Muro is stealing experimental gene surgery equipment; I might finish rationalizing that soon. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::::Feel free to expand on these ideas, but I'm afraid this is a road I can't travel with you. I'm at my limit, as far as the time I'm willing to spend arguing about the premise for a sequel that neither of us is working on. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::Your overall conjecture about their purpose in shifting the climate makes sense to me. If ocean acidification was a big problem for them in the P-Tr days (which I imagined was accidentally caused by them at the time), they would definitely have something to say about it now. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::Your overall conjecture about their purpose in shifting the climate makes sense to me. If ocean acidification was a big problem for them in the P-Tr days (which I imagined was accidentally caused by them at the time), they would definitely have something to say about it now. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::Re: xenoforming, I definitely think that life (self-replicating machinery) is the best way to do this, rather than something as laborious as digging channels through the earth up into volcanoes, and pumping air produced by massive machinery. In real life, terraforming another planet via plant life would take many generations, but the Daodan's influence is my excuse for vastly speeding up the process. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::Re: xenoforming, I definitely think that life (self-replicating machinery) is the best way to do this, rather than something as laborious as digging channels through the earth up into volcanoes, and pumping air produced by massive machinery. In real life, terraforming another planet via plant life would take many generations, but the Daodan's influence is my excuse for vastly speeding up the process. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
| Line 183: | Line 191: | ||
:::::::::::::Paraphrasing what you said about the Wilderness earlier: it really ''is'' "cool glowy energy" - but ''whose''? :-) And yes, of course, there's nothing wrong with a lineup of "prime" and "subprime" symbiotes (even if I'd keep them to a minimum, to avoid banalizing the concept). Really I'm just brainstorming here, and I felt that the "dual symbiosis" idea was worth writing down. After all, if I can think like a madman on occasion, then I can always tone down and characterize "normal" people, but who's to say mad ideas won't serve for characterization as well? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::Paraphrasing what you said about the Wilderness earlier: it really ''is'' "cool glowy energy" - but ''whose''? :-) And yes, of course, there's nothing wrong with a lineup of "prime" and "subprime" symbiotes (even if I'd keep them to a minimum, to avoid banalizing the concept). Really I'm just brainstorming here, and I felt that the "dual symbiosis" idea was worth writing down. After all, if I can think like a madman on occasion, then I can always tone down and characterize "normal" people, but who's to say mad ideas won't serve for characterization as well? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::Here's another real-time idea: even if the "cool glowy energy" is merely an emanation of a symbiote's Chrysalis (and not an inflow of energy and information from the Phase), knocking out that aura would probably deal damage to the host/Chrysalis, or at least cut the overpower short. This, and the trivial interpretation of the aura as an EM field, means that a reasonable weapon/deterrent against symbiotes could be a good old EMP. At least it's worth trying -- with any luck it will leave Konoko over-power-less and vulnerable to melee and ballistic weapons (energy weapons would probably be knocked out by the EMP as well). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::Here's another real-time idea: even if the "cool glowy energy" is merely an emanation of a symbiote's Chrysalis (and not an inflow of energy and information from the Phase), knocking out that aura would probably deal damage to the host/Chrysalis, or at least cut the overpower short. This, and the trivial interpretation of the aura as an EM field, means that a reasonable weapon/deterrent against symbiotes could be a good old EMP. At least it's worth trying -- with any luck it will leave Konoko over-power-less and vulnerable to melee and ballistic weapons (energy weapons would probably be knocked out by the EMP as well). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::Sorry, but I strongly dislike the idea that a weapon known for its effectiveness against circuitry would be effective against a symbiote. We might as well be dealing with the original cyborg Konoko from the pre-Hardy days, in that case. To me, the superiority of organic technology (as represented in sci-fi, since it doesn't really exist yet) is that it's beyond gears, beyond circuits, and even beyond nanites. It's the epitome, the culmination, of all technology, and nothing can contain it except other biotech. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::"As long as that plant contained the Daodan, it doesn't matter if anything else did." As I said above, the similarities between Jamie's cellular breakdown and Daodan symbiosis are actually minor, and even Hasegawa's notion of a "poisonous world" doesn't quite describe the Wilderness as you see it (in my opinion), as well as Muro's "dead air and foul water". But, even if the bush was Daodan-enhanced, Hasegawa would want to know if it was just that one bush that was "poisonous", or that particular bush species, or, as he actually puts it, the whole "world outside the Atmospheric Processors". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::"As long as that plant contained the Daodan, it doesn't matter if anything else did." As I said above, the similarities between Jamie's cellular breakdown and Daodan symbiosis are actually minor, and even Hasegawa's notion of a "poisonous world" doesn't quite describe the Wilderness as you see it (in my opinion), as well as Muro's "dead air and foul water". But, even if the bush was Daodan-enhanced, Hasegawa would want to know if it was just that one bush that was "poisonous", or that particular bush species, or, as he actually puts it, the whole "world outside the Atmospheric Processors". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::One thing that you're not making clear in your Wilderness theory is how it spread a lot at first, engulfing large areas, and then seemingly stopped. If Daodan symbiosis propagates upon contact, and each affected cell becomes a new source, then wouldn't the WCG need to build new rings of fences every week? Also, it it's so good at spreading-upon-contact, then wouldn't it have hit Hasegawa too? Airplanes flying over a Zone notice contamination in the air -- spores? pollen? -- and Hasegawa is down there breathing that stuff... And, for that matter, if it causes noticable contamination on aircraft then why hasn't airborne propagation caused generalized Daodanization yet? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::One thing that you're not making clear in your Wilderness theory is how it spread a lot at first, engulfing large areas, and then seemingly stopped. If Daodan symbiosis propagates upon contact, and each affected cell becomes a new source, then wouldn't the WCG need to build new rings of fences every week? Also, it it's so good at spreading-upon-contact, then wouldn't it have hit Hasegawa too? Airplanes flying over a Zone notice contamination in the air -- spores? pollen? -- and Hasegawa is down there breathing that stuff... And, for that matter, if it causes noticable contamination on aircraft then why hasn't airborne propagation caused generalized Daodanization yet? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
| Line 200: | Line 209: | ||
::::::::::::I think you're either overestimating how fast plants can spread, or underestimating the scale of the planet. If a few seeds can disperse like dandelion seeds and float over the fence from time to time, there's no reason why this immediately results in any sort of a crisis. Over the long term, sure, and that's what my Oni 2 is about. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::I think you're either overestimating how fast plants can spread, or underestimating the scale of the planet. If a few seeds can disperse like dandelion seeds and float over the fence from time to time, there's no reason why this immediately results in any sort of a crisis. Over the long term, sure, and that's what my Oni 2 is about. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::I think it's you who's underestimating how fast your own super-duper alien plants of doom can spread... In the initial concept, "a single seed is enough to corrupt a whole area", but then airborne seeds/spores/pollen are allowed to cross fences (how often would that happen? how about ''daily''?) and somehow it doesn't defeat the purpose of said fences? What the blam? I'm not complaining, especially since I know the issue is easily fixed by assuming vegetative reproduction, but it's strange to see a potent bio-threat that stays confined mainly because the writer doesn't need it yet. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::I think it's you who's underestimating how fast your own super-duper alien plants of doom can spread... In the initial concept, "a single seed is enough to corrupt a whole area", but then airborne seeds/spores/pollen are allowed to cross fences (how often would that happen? how about ''daily''?) and somehow it doesn't defeat the purpose of said fences? What the blam? I'm not complaining, especially since I know the issue is easily fixed by assuming vegetative reproduction, but it's strange to see a potent bio-threat that stays confined mainly because the writer doesn't need it yet. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::I don't think I'll repeat myself any more on this subject. I thought I was clear enough when I stated that these plants can grow at any speed that we find convenient for our purposes, and it will be plausible. How fast does a plant spread in real life? Now, how fast does a super-plant spread, when it's up against an alien ecosystem? Probably the same speed. So why can't the WCG just move their fences out a few yards every year? Problem solved. End of discussion. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::I was reviewing the manual, and realized that we both forgot a very important sentence: "The poor bastards who can't afford to live in the cities get as close to the atmosphere processors as they can and eke out a miserable (and dangerous) existence working on the reclamation teams who beat back the corrosive stain of the wilderness." So there is in fact a "Wilderness Preserve Task Force", as you put it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 17:55, 27 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::Thanks, that's a tad more constructive than the previous iteration (I mean, really? "move their fences out a few yards every year", when the flight path of an airborne seed clearly isn't limited to "a few yards" in any particular direction?). I am still not a big fan of the manual, though, and there would be quite a contrast between the dignified TCTF and the "poor bastards [...] who beat back the corrosive stain of the wilderness". Even if the "reclamation teams" are an official initiative of the WCG, it all seems a bit half-hearted and desperate (although it may look good in propaganda: "See? We're aware of your stupid eco-issues, and we actually have a task force that picks at it 24/7!"), and it doesn't quite match the idea of a top-secret WCG initiative that I had in my mind (not sure about you). But, if we must, then this can be an interesting take on the WCG's penal system: is there capital punishment? or does the WCG favor "death by exile" instead? and/or are the outcasts forced (more or less formally) into slave-like labor in the "reclamation teams" (as the manual entry would suggest)? P.S. The outer "and" conjunction in the manual quote looks like it could/should have been an "or", otherwise it would mean that the day-to-day reclamation struggle is happening right at the doors of every big city -- and that would be kinda hard to overlook, even if you leave out the "alien" nature of the contamination as per SoW. I would insist on the "or" here ("get as close to the atmosphere processors as they can ''or'' eke out a miserable existence working on the reclamation teams"), i.e., separate the slums at the outskirts of ACC-protected areas from the "bio-trenches" (if any) that surround the most virulent and aggressive Wilderness Preserves. It remains to be debated why/how the Hasegawas were able to waltz right into a Contaminated Zone virtually unprotected, oblivious of any reclamation protocol that there may have been (unless maybe there wasn't any at the time, and Jamie's death was one of the first swallows? in any case, the rationalization of the Bio-Crisis would need some more work). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 20:42, 27 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::I think I need to walk you through what I'm trying to say about the spread of the zones referred to as Wilderness Preserves, according to my take on the story. Let me ask you, if a "daodandelion" seed floats 300 yards outside the Preserve, settles somewhere and takes root, what happens? The answer is nothing. Very slowly, the dandelion may spread further with each generation, but it's still just a few tiny plants. There's no crisis there. If the WCG moves its fences out each year, it's only to capture the lion's share of the new zone. They're not going to capture everything within that new zone, and that's kind of the point: that it's not totally under control. I never stated, implied, or thought that these Daodan-powered plants are growing overnight, or growing ten feet tall. So there was nothing wrong with my suggestion. If you still think you see a problem with it, then please be more specific, or ask questions rather than trying to mind-read my notion of the Wilderness. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 22:09, 27 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::I don't have to mind-read anything. You already said in no uncertain terms that it's all "up to us". In your view, the Wilderness can be as scary as you need it to be -- eventually --, but not one minute too soon. I, in turn, have made it clear that such "flexibility" is not much to my liking, because (to me) entities need to have a life of their own, without doing a writer's bidding all the time. If I were to ask a question, it would be about your initial statement from the "Wilderness Preserves" section, the one that starts with "any xeno-dandelion seed that lands in a field could start the whole species growing": would you like to recall or amend anything in that whole paragraph? any reason why the fences wouldn't need to be shifted by a few ''miles'' every year, rather than yards? (also, what about super-windy days?) --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 17:09, 28 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::::It's some kind of cruelty to make me keep repeating myself. I'm not dismissing the issue of airborne seeds because it's inconvenient for my story concept. There's simply no reason to think that a daodandelion spreading itself is a huge issue. The BioCrisis is caused (in my story) by the advancement of a ''foreign ecosystem'', not a single plant. To the degree that the ''ecosystem'' — an interlocking mass of life — is visibly observed to have spread from one month/year to the next, the border around the Wilderness must either be moved back or the tendrils of Wilderness reaching outside the fence must be torched by reclamation teams. This large-scale effort has little to do with a few small plants outside of the zone which are not necessarily harmful or spreading super-fast. And again, if the Wilderness was totally containable then there would be little to drive the plot, so of course the fact that these plants will inevitably spread themselves is desirable from our storytelling standpoint. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:20, 28 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::Point taken (finally?). I still think that the WCG would be very wrong to disregard the airborne metastases as "not necessarily harmful or spreading super-fast" (because, as you have put it yourself, "All that's needed is for humans not to notice for a while and it's too late.", "The areas that 'go to seed' before WCG can catch them are cordoned off", etc). But if Oni's story is telling us anything, it that the WCG isn't infallible, so perhaps that kind of arrogance is quite in-character for them. Also, if the WPTF is only fighting against "direct invasion" (as opposed to "metastases", I would definitely call them "containment teams" rather than "reclamation teams" -- unless they're actually able to reclaim some ground from the Zones once in a while. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 04:26, 29 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::"Reclamation" sounds better for PR purposes ^_^ "We're not just containing the problem for a while, we're actually reclaiming inhabitable land. Trust us!™" --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:31, 29 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::::P.S.: You say you don't like the idea of arbitrarily determining how fast these plants would spread, but that's exactly what you yourself are doing, and then claiming that this arbitrary rate is too high. Why are you doing this? Oni's world is a fictional one, and not subject to known science since we are invoking phase tech, alien life, and the Daodan. Therefore everything is up in the air, and anything that we decide only has to be self-consistent and plausible for the audience. It's much more plausible to say that the daodandelions are doing little harm than to posit that somehow the xeno-life only spreads via a root system, which I assume is what you mean by "vegetatively". --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:20, 28 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::Indeed invoking [[wp:Vegetative_reproduction]] probably isn't any less arbitrary than not invoking it and relying on "slow enough" airborne contamination instead. I'm not sure why I am making such a fuss, probably you've just been dismissive earlier on and I overreacted. Currently I am quite comfortable with the notion that, at the time of Oni's events, the WCG simply don't see the "biological contamination" growing out of control in any foreseeable future, and therefore aren't trying ''too'' hard to contain it. If I am reading you right, the visceral danger would come from the Wilderness spreading "up" (up the trophic levels) rather than outwards -- and that, indeed, would only happen in the fenced-off Zones where the xeno-ecosystem is oldest and most dense. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 04:26, 29 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::Right, my suggestion is that they really think it's under control, in terms of the observable Wilderness. Perhaps some atmospheric toxin levels are rising and they don't know why, but overall it seems like the Preserves are contained. They may even be doing a good enough job razing the bits of Wilderness which get outside the Preserves that they don't need to move the fences out year to year (paving a wide band of asphalt around the zones would probably help a lot with this). But then they make two discoveries during Oni 2: (1) foreign life is advancing up the trophic chain within the dark heart of the Preserves, and (2) the alien life is also moving upward literally. As xeno-insects have entered the Wilderness, they've begun climbing to the flyway that's been referred to as the "billion-bug highway" (see last bullet point [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Neo-Biology#Strange_behaviors|HERE]] for links). So now life is spreading way above any ability of the WCG to contain it, and new hotspots of Wilderness are springing up around the globe. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:31, 29 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::The wide band of asphalt has me wondering if you can super-contain and super-conceal at the same time. The harder the WCG tries to contain the supposed growth of the Preserves (asphalt fields, trenches, etc), the harder it will be to deny or overlook the alien nature of those areas, and how they have a tendency to spread. (I still have a bit of a problem with TCTF/Damocles scientists being dismissive of Hasegawa's alarmism, acting like there is actually no ecological breakdown at hand at all!) So yeah, the WCG's propaganda is a force to be reckoned with, but could they really surround the WPs with reclamation/containment activity, and still keep calling them "Wilderness Preserves" (and have everyone, Griffin and his Daodan scientists included, playing along)? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 03:32, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::::"The wide band of asphalt has me wondering if you can super-contain and super-conceal at the same time." What, you mean the ''very ample parking'' that the WCG has thoughtfully placed around the Preserves? Strange that they built such a big parking lot when it's so hard to get a permit to go on a safari in those Preserves, but hey, that's government efficiency for you. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 17:22, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::::Serious answer: It all depends on how far the Preserves are from the Cities, how many people are asking questions, and how total the WCG's control is over information leaks. Yes, the "poor wretches" working on the reclamation team ("reclamation wretches"?) know the truth, but who listens to them? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 17:22, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::::Nice try, but (see above) I wouldn't expect Griffin and his Daodan scientists to play along. If the wretches know the truth, then TCTF command will, too, Griffin included. If there is permanent containment activity around the WPs, then you can no longer pretend that "You'd have to talk to someone much higher up to see what they know about the Wilderness." -- so maybe it's better if it ''doesn't'' take that much to contain the Wilderness at the time of Oni's events. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::::::I think you're consistently and massively over-estimating the scope of TCTF. As their name indicates, they're concerned with stopping tech-related crimes (a corollary to Aramaki's Section 9). Whatever's happening in the Wilderness Preserves is of no concern to them. Griffin may take some personal interest in this subject, due to the Chrysalis that's in his possession, but he's basically just a precinct chief over some local cops. There's no reason to think that he has any special information on the BioCrisis. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:16, 31 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::::::You said it yourself. "Just a precint chief over some local cops" may have aptly described Griffin and his division a couple of decades back, but at the time of Oni's events he has put himself in charge of a Daodan-enhanced "creature". Unless he isn't really trying all that hard to get an edge on Muro, I see no reason for him ''not'' to know everything there is to know. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 01:08, 1 August 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::::::That being said, one possibility we could go with is that the Wilderness was indeed not spreading quickly as of the time of Oni. Perhaps it only begins growing rapidly as of Oni 2, which turns out to be caused by the creation of new Daodan hosts (following on my notion that all Daodan-boosted life is tied together in a worldwide web of phase-transferred energy and information). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:16, 31 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::::::Yes, that's a more believable premise - that Griffin is good-willing, but there is nothing dramatic to know about the WPs, or it's so subtle that it can be covered up by a higher-level task force (perhaps WCG may have hired some kind of proto-BGI for that kind of work, too, not just for assassinations and such). The manual's reclamation teams (if any) would then be relegated to the immediate vicinity of the ACC-protected cities, as discussed earlier (and as implied by the manual's text). As for the "worldwide web of phase-transferred energy and information" -- I am making note of it for later; FWIW I'd rather blame increased Phase/Daodan presence on Diluvian stirring/awakening rather than on a banalization of human-Daodan symbiosis, but we shall see. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 01:08, 1 August 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::Let me re-state my position re: the "actual" Wilderness threat as you envision it "during Oni 2": with daodanimals pointing their noses, and insect swarms ''finally'' joining the airborne seeding fun, Nausicaa-style (sorry, but the analogy with the modus propagandi of the Sea of Corruption is too exact to overlook). I understand that your story ultimately presents it all as ''the'' threat faced by the protagonist and by humanity in general, but in my impression, such a development would work best if it's one of ''several'' major concerns. Phase hazards, META issues (civilization alienated from within/above, rather than "evicted" by alienated flora/fauna) and belligerent human factions -- those are just a few things that could shift the focus from WPs back to urban areas time and again. My feeling is that it would ensure some variety and keep the plot from being dominated by a Wilderness fetish that's too "green" and (yes, sorry) Nausicaa-like. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 03:32, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::::Too many threats. Unless you plan to join some of them with a common root that the good guys can attack. Otherwise you've just produced a [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld Crapsack World] that no one can do anything about and that players don't want to live in. But to be clear, I never suggested making the whole game about fighting the Wilderness. Then it would be called Reclamation Wretches, and that's a totally different game ("Press X to customize your flamethrower…"). For my ideas on other aspects of the story besides dealing with the Wilderness, see the [[Oni2:Slaves of War/Factions|Factions]] page. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 17:22, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::::It doesn't work like this. A single overpowered threat can easily give you crapsack syndrome -- and, conversely, multiple well-balanced threats can make for a thrilling experience where you never know what awaits you around the corner: humans with guns, a swarm of hungry Screamers, a hulking META-mech, a couple of [[:Image:Duality concept art - BioCorp VR avatar.jpg|these]] merry fellows, or Mukade knows what else. Of course the player needs to have enough skills to survive every such encounter, and it helps if the story lets him bring closure to at least some of the threats. And I do acknowledge that your Oni 2 wouldn't have been entirely Wilderness-centered (we've been through this before). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::::::I suppose you're right that a Crapsack World can have a single cause. "1984" comes to mind, with its [https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=OP OP] government surveillance. My objection to multiple factions is that there should be a root cause behind whatever bad we're adding to the world. Otherwise the story feels disjointed and the problems insurmountable (how many different evils do we have to fight?!), having a burdensome effect on the player's psyche. In SoW, all the factions and problems that exist in Oni's world but not ours relate to the Daodan and phase technology, which themselves are also linked. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:16, 31 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::::::I could argue that you can't hinge all the factions and their motivations on a single "root cause", or it will look artificial as hell, like you're writing a large novel off a premise that would be more suitable for a short story. Even so, I don't think we disagree. "Everything is connected." Even if some guy/girl lost their family in the Cataclysm and vows revenge against Konoko (and turns evil bcause of that), that would qualify as Daodan/Phase/Diluvian-based too, I guess. Then again, I am sure there are plenty of games that present the player with "many different evils" without that being a problem. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 01:08, 1 August 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::Secondly, you're reading the manual's sentence too literally. The poor people who can't live within an ACC's main area of effect live in something like a shantytown outside city limits. The job that some of them have is going to work every day fighting against the spread of the BioCrisis. That doesn't mean the Wilderness is right outside the cities. It just means that they have a rough job and that they live on the edge of the habitable zone. I'm sure that "and" was really meant there. What the sentence doesn't tell us how far they commute to work each day. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 22:09, 27 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::Off-road commuting for hundreds of miles has to be the worst job ever, indeed. Your point is clear, and I don't think there is any radical disagreement here (if anything, I said there's some welcome food for thought). However, like for the airborne spreading, it all boils down to quantitative considerations VS qualitative ones. I am a scientist at heart and by trade, so yeah, I tend to: a) read that kind of stuff literally; b) favor basic logic and math over figures of speech. On the face of it, the manual says that there are people living at the edge of atmospheric-processed areas, with "dead air and foul water" right next door: settle any further out, and the toxic air/water will start causing gruesome diseases and birth defects (that's just what the "edge of the habitable zone" is, by definition). Seen that way, it makes total sense for the "reclamation teams" to be hard at work right outside the shantytowns, "beating back" the limits of their ''own'' habitat (as well as helping to preserve the air quality in an ACC's "main area of effect"). That said, if the actual source of the contamination is identified as being located far outside the city limits, rather than adjacent to the slums, then indeed it makes sense to have "commuters" who wander towards the Wilderness Preserves and stamp out whatever is causing the toxicity to spread (although I am not sure the term "reclamation teams" would be fitting for this kind of task -- they'd be more like "excisors", "surgeons", "foresters" or, yes, "stalkers"). My key point, if I may reiterate it, is that, if this latter "stalking" occupation is even more precarious than that of the reclamation teams (the ones that merely decontaminate the areas around the slums that they live in), then -- as I already said -- this supposed WPTF comes across as much more humble than the dignified TCTF (despite a supposedly comparable importance of the two initiatives), and it may not fit in too well with the idea that there's this big high-level conspiracy surrounding the Wilderness. It can work, but it will require some new statements: about the WCG's penal system, about the not-so-free circulation of people or information between the inner cities and the slums, etc. If, on the other hand, the Wilderness expands only marginally (vegetative reproduction?), and there is no need for daily monitoring by a "WPTF" (precarious or otherwise), then the sentence from the manual is just about "reclamation teams" that are decontaminating areas right outside the slums, and that's it. It can work either way, and I don't feel like I'm closing any doors at this point. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 17:09, 28 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::::There is room for this alternative suggestion, I'll admit. It could be that, rather than the world being mostly Earthlike and only alien/hostile in patches designated as Preserves, the world could be mostly hostile outside of the cities, with only a few manmade oases that are inhabitable. In that case, yes, the poor would be the front-line soldiers, with the accompanying risk, in the battle against the encroaching Wilderness. This does not feel compatible, however, with the picture that Oni paints when it talks about Preserves that people are kept out of. Most significantly, ''Oni's cities are not domed''. The standard sci-fi trope of walled-in cities is not present here, as shown by the sky(boxes) above Konoko and the fact that the poor are able to get some benefit by being near the ACCs while outside the cities. If the Wilderness was all around the unwalled cities, it would not only be obvious to the citizens (as you pointed out), but running the ACCs without a dome would be as stupid as running your AC without walls on your house. Gonna take a while to cool the whole world down…. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:20, 28 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::See, that's why I hate the manual. It reminds us how stupid Oni can be ^_^ Seriously, though, there doesn't need to be a contradiction here. Is it clean oases in a toxic desert or vice-versa? The correct answer is: neither. There are areas of lethal toxicity (WPs), areas of inhabitable cleanliness (ACCs), and everywhere else there is a map with various degrees of toxicity (places where you wouldn't settle and raise children, but where you wouldn't instantly die the way Jamie did, either). Also, that "toxicity map" has probably been evolving over the decades (in 2014 the WCG only needed to keep people out of WPs, but by 2032 the trend may have shifted to keeping people ''in'' the cities instead). So in the end it's "up to us" how much of the manual we'd end up referencing, and to what part of Oni's history (and geography) we'd attribute it. As for an ACC's efficiency without a dome -- well, that's the elephant in the room, isn't it? I like to think that the ACCs really made a difference in the months/years that followed the Great Uprising (and that's how the WCG folks were able to sell their authority to the masses -- as effective crisis managers). But at the time of Oni's events the ACCs mostly looks like monuments to the WCG's proud past, barely able to keep up with the amplitude of the BioCrisis (and an easy target for Muro, too). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 04:26, 29 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::True, it needn't be a black-and-white matter of habitable vs. totally uninhabitable areas. And as far as the ACCs not being able to keep up as well with the pollutants anymore… remember to wear your Hapémask! --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:35, 29 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::Heh. Looking back at the debate (not just on this page, but through the years), it's funny how I've been oscillating between "ACCs are doing a decent job" and "ACCs are just for show, people are f##ked". Currently I'm reconciling this is in a "time-dependent" fashion just like for the toxicity levels above. Back in 2014, the freshly built ACCs were doing fine and Hasegawa had no real reason to set his sights on something as radical as the Chrysalis (except of course in the TNZ perspective), but in 2032 the rising toxin levels (whether of Diluvian/WP origin or caused by Muro's sabotage of the ACCs) are close to alarming all right. I believe there is a way to rationalize all this in some compact form, making the most of Oni's data, and without too many "deus ex machina" or "alien ex Gaia" tricks. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 03:32, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::::Hasegawa was a visionary, that's why he foresaw the need for a radical solution to the BioCrisis. He may have also been a little crazed after the loss of Jamie, and per Hardy. As far as "rationaliz[ing] all this in some compact form", that's exactly what I did [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Overview#Backstory|HERE]]. Not that there isn't room for tweaking it, or that you have to adopt my theory, but just sayin'… somebody already tied everything together. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 17:22, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::::Unfortunately "Backstory" comes across as SoW's backstory rather than Oni's: it opens with the sound hypothesis of alternate history, but then latches onto the "too fast" pacing of Hasegawa's project and veers towards xenoforming. In my approach (wait for it) I at least give Oni a chance to "explain itself" without calling aliens to the rescue right away. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::::::I think you seem to have forgotten your own theory that the Daodan aura is intelligent :-p We're all trying to explain certain "x" factors in the story as best we can. Considering the existence of Screaming Cells and super-intelligent "cancer", I don't think it's going much further to invoke alien intelligence. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:16, 31 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::::::The difference is that it's Oni's scientists who are wishing they could "communicate with the Chrysalis directly", not me. And at the core I am not reading anything human-relatable into that intelligence (such as invasion plans). I am quite satisfied with the empirical characterization of that thing (as "smart cancer"), and leave disambiguation for later. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 01:08, 1 August 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::It may seem naive of the WCG to think they can contain the Wilderness, but they might know full well that it's a losing battle. They also are taking steps to contain the growing Wilderness, but clearly they're losing since the toxins in the air are increasing, according to Oni. Also, to whatever degree they're wrong about how well they have it contained, that's our way of adding some drama to the story. Finding out that the trophic level of the Wilderness is advancing to herbivores, insectivores, and then carnivores will be an alarming development. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::It may seem naive of the WCG to think they can contain the Wilderness, but they might know full well that it's a losing battle. They also are taking steps to contain the growing Wilderness, but clearly they're losing since the toxins in the air are increasing, according to Oni. Also, to whatever degree they're wrong about how well they have it contained, that's our way of adding some drama to the story. Finding out that the trophic level of the Wilderness is advancing to herbivores, insectivores, and then carnivores will be an alarming development. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::The [[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Secondary_Stage|increasing air toxicity]] is one of the most ambiguous parts of Oni canon. Not only does it involve the infamous "36.18% increase" of Dioxin levels, but it seemingly presents the toxin rise as a consequence of Muro's retrofitting of the ACCs. At no point are the WPs stated as a prominent source of airborne toxins in Oni's world: all we have is "biological contamination" encountered during flyovers, and the uncanny "virus" from Jamie's bush. Of course it doesn't mean that toxins don't emanate from the Contaminated Zones at all, but it doesn't establish the WPs as the planet's "toxic lungs", either. If anything, I'd blame a WCG-era toxin rise (pre-Muro) on imperfect waste processing procedures at the ACCs. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::The [[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Secondary_Stage|increasing air toxicity]] is one of the most ambiguous parts of Oni canon. Not only does it involve the infamous "36.18% increase" of Dioxin levels, but it seemingly presents the toxin rise as a consequence of Muro's retrofitting of the ACCs. At no point are the WPs stated as a prominent source of airborne toxins in Oni's world: all we have is "biological contamination" encountered during flyovers, and the uncanny "virus" from Jamie's bush. Of course it doesn't mean that toxins don't emanate from the Contaminated Zones at all, but it doesn't establish the WPs as the planet's "toxic lungs", either. If anything, I'd blame a WCG-era toxin rise (pre-Muro) on imperfect waste processing procedures at the ACCs. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::I always thought the increasing toxicity was the result of the BioCrisis, whatever that may be. It's an ongoing problem, building over time. [[Quotes/Consoles#BioCrisis|THIS]] console makes it clear that the toxins have been building for a while, and the BioCrisis Subcommittee is refitting their ACCs to try to keep up. They don't seem puzzled by this, nor have they noticed that the toxins are coming from their own tampered-with ACCs, which would be a rather large thing to overlook. The increase in toxins (though poorly calculated in that console) is thus of "natural" origin. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::I always thought the increasing toxicity was the result of the BioCrisis, whatever that may be. It's an ongoing problem, building over time. [[Quotes/Consoles#BioCrisis|THIS]] console makes it clear that the toxins have been building for a while, and the BioCrisis Subcommittee is refitting their ACCs to try to keep up. They don't seem puzzled by this, nor have they noticed that the toxins are coming from their own tampered-with ACCs, which would be a rather large thing to overlook. The increase in toxins (though poorly calculated in that console) is thus of "natural" origin. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::The [[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Secondary_Stage|STURMANDERUNG console]] that I quoted above contains a "baseline report" on Dioxin levels in the scope of Muro's STURMANDERUNG project, so when they say it went from 97 ppm to 100 ppm and then to 152 ppm, they're presenting it as a consequence of the ACC sabotage. If you've "always believed" that this Dioxin increase has "natural" causes (i.e., outside WCG turf, e.g., inside the WPs), and that ACC operators wouldn't have been able to overlook it if it's their own facilities that contributed to the increase -- that's fine. It only means that we will have to rewrite that STURMANDERUNG console, which is also fine because I hate it (as well as all the other STURMANDERUNG consoles; see above). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::The [[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Secondary_Stage|STURMANDERUNG console]] that I quoted above contains a "baseline report" on Dioxin levels in the scope of Muro's STURMANDERUNG project, so when they say it went from 97 ppm to 100 ppm and then to 152 ppm, they're presenting it as a consequence of the ACC sabotage. If you've "always believed" that this Dioxin increase has "natural" causes (i.e., outside WCG turf, e.g., inside the WPs), and that ACC operators wouldn't have been able to overlook it if it's their own facilities that contributed to the increase -- that's fine. It only means that we will have to rewrite that STURMANDERUNG console, which is also fine because I hate it (as well as all the other STURMANDERUNG consoles; see above). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::Then again, we are shown/told that: 1) Musashi/BGI is manufacturing atmospheric processing equipment | :::::::::::::Then again, we are shown/told that: 1) Musashi/BGI is manufacturing atmospheric processing equipment{{ref|[[Quotes/Diary#CHAPTER_02_._ENGINES_OF_EVIL|'''Quote:''']] Some of this stuff looks like atmospheric processing equipment. I can't believe I KNOW that! Maybe that means I'm a nerd?}}; 2) Muro has agents that have ''infiltrated'' ACCs worldwide{{ref|[[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Primary_Stage|'''Quote:''']] 1) Worldwide infiltration of Atmospheric Conversion Centers}}, and ''then'' sabotaged the ACCs' "core filtration systems"{{ref|[[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Primary_Stage|'''Quote:''']] 2) Modification of ACC core filtration systems with smuggled parts}}. This means that there would be people at each ACC (whitecoats and/or engineers) who would be able to temporarily conceal the sabotage (ever-so-subtle "toxification" of the filtration system), one facility at a time, in the event of suspicion and inspection -- not unlike Volkswagen's [[wp:Volkswagen_emissions_scandal|defeat devices]]. That's just one quick way to rationalize it, but I think it's fairly close to the mark: early "infiltration" means that Muro has undercover agents at the ACCs, which is how he's been able to mess with ACCs for so long without anyone noticing.{{ref|group=geyser|The not-so-subtle ACC raid in chapters 7 and 8 is something completely different from how Muro had been managing ACCs until then. I don't have an answer yet as for what business Muro had at the ACC -- or at Vago BioTech, for that matter.}} --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::I still find it hard to reconcile the WCG's awareness of the Wilderness threat ("losing battle" and all) with the seeming unawareness of Griffin's Daodan team. It's OK to have a surge in xeno-life post-Oni (triggered by Konoko's Cataclysm, perhaps?), but at the time of Oni's events I'd expect the xeno-flora to be mostly dormant, complementary to the other sources of pollution that may exist in the Zones (man-made, phase-enhanced, etc) and to the toxin rise, but not readily identifiable either as an invasive threat or as a form of Daodan symbiosis. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::I still find it hard to reconcile the WCG's awareness of the Wilderness threat ("losing battle" and all) with the seeming unawareness of Griffin's Daodan team. It's OK to have a surge in xeno-life post-Oni (triggered by Konoko's Cataclysm, perhaps?), but at the time of Oni's events I'd expect the xeno-flora to be mostly dormant, complementary to the other sources of pollution that may exist in the Zones (man-made, phase-enhanced, etc) and to the toxin rise, but not readily identifiable either as an invasive threat or as a form of Daodan symbiosis. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::To be clear, Griffin's team is interested in Konoko, how she functions, and how to contain her. They're a police force, basically. You'd have to talk to someone much higher up to see what they know about the Wilderness. Your suggestion is certainly a decent one, that the true nature of the wildlife in the Preserves is not known. After all, if people commonly knew where the Daodan came from, Hasegawa's work would be more easily replicable. But perhaps he never shared that with anyone, or perhaps just his brother-in-law, who kept the secret. There's honestly little reason for the alien nature of the Wilderness to come up in Oni, as big of a deal as it may be. Yes, you'd think BWest would have made sure to mention it in a console somewhere as a natural part of their world-building, but no matter what we can't deny that there's some kind of big gap in Oni's story. This is just my proposal for filling it. It's entirely possible that hardly anyone in Oni's world realized that the alien life was alien until after the game ended. After all, if it's really life from Earth's past, then it's not *that* alien to begin with. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::To be clear, Griffin's team is interested in Konoko, how she functions, and how to contain her. They're a police force, basically. You'd have to talk to someone much higher up to see what they know about the Wilderness. Your suggestion is certainly a decent one, that the true nature of the wildlife in the Preserves is not known. After all, if people commonly knew where the Daodan came from, Hasegawa's work would be more easily replicable. But perhaps he never shared that with anyone, or perhaps just his brother-in-law, who kept the secret. There's honestly little reason for the alien nature of the Wilderness to come up in Oni, as big of a deal as it may be. Yes, you'd think BWest would have made sure to mention it in a console somewhere as a natural part of their world-building, but no matter what we can't deny that there's some kind of big gap in Oni's story. This is just my proposal for filling it. It's entirely possible that hardly anyone in Oni's world realized that the alien life was alien until after the game ended. After all, if it's really life from Earth's past, then it's not *that* alien to begin with. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::Thanks for clarifying, but I think you may be seeing big gaps that aren't there, because -- as a writer -- you ''need'' a gap that you can fill with something ''big'' and proprietary (perhaps not unlike my TNZ, in all fairness). I'll take "no" as an answer (because I fully understand that this is getting out of proportion), but can you elaborate on "no matter what, we can't deny that there's some kind of big gap in Oni's story"? If you can clearly summarize what you mean by "some kind of big gap", then I'll be happy to try and "can-deny" it, just to help you relativize. We already know that I granted you the Diluvians (broadly), so I think we'll be fine ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::Thanks for clarifying, but I think you may be seeing big gaps that aren't there, because -- as a writer -- you ''need'' a gap that you can fill with something ''big'' and proprietary (perhaps not unlike my TNZ, in all fairness). I'll take "no" as an answer (because I fully understand that this is getting out of proportion), but can you elaborate on "no matter what, we can't deny that there's some kind of big gap in Oni's story"? If you can clearly summarize what you mean by "some kind of big gap", then I'll be happy to try and "can-deny" it, just to help you relativize. We already know that I granted you the Diluvians (broadly), so I think we'll be fine ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::On the contrary, I had no desire to insert anything into the story that wasn't necessary. My ideas, as presented in my SoW material, were designed to fill the gaps in the story with a minimum of insertions. This allowed me to centralize all the changes between Oni's world and ours on a single point of divergence in history around, say, 1999. And in fact, if the Diluvians are not going to serve the purpose that I originally suggested, I see little purpose in inserting them at all. | |||
::::::::::::::As far as the gaps I'm referring to, you know them as well as I do. If you insist, though…. | |||
::::::::::::::(1) Where the hell is Hasegawa during Oni? (2) Why aren't there more symbiotes being made? How could Hasegawa's technology have been so far advanced that it hasn't been replicated over a decade later? (3) Who is Mukade? (4) Why did Muro say that Hasegawa envisioned a world where people choked on dead air and foul water, when his father seemed to want the opposite? (5) What is the nature of "phase technology"? (6) What exactly are the Screamers that came through the phase veil? (7) What is BGI? (8) What is in the Wilderness Preserves? (9) What is behind the BioCrisis? | |||
::::::::::::::These are the major gaps that come to mind. The absence of Hasegawa and the seeming loss of Daodan knowledge are the two big ones. I'm not saying that you and I haven't proposed answers to these things already, but to pretend there's no big gaps in the story is just silly. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::I've been meaning to address this one elsewhere (thanks for answering, BTW). For most of your perceived gaps, since they're listed as open questions, my replies would probably grow out of proportion rather easily, so it seems wise to take this (important) argument to a dedicated page. A few quick replies, though: 9) Per game data, the BioCrisis at the time of Oni's events is mostly about the steady rise in toxin levels, which (per game data again) is because of how Muro has infiltrated ACCs worldwide, sabotaged the "core filtration systems", and made sure that it all remained undetected for as long as possible (at least until the "Daodan core technology" was ready for mass implantation, at which point less subtle bio-terror could take over); so Oni's answer is "Muro's Sturmanderung is behind the BioCrisis, [[:Image:Act_3_.MISSION_FAILED.png|simple as that]]"; the pre-Muro and pre-ACC eco-issues are another story, but [[Quotes/Consoles#BioCrisis|THIS]] BioCrisis is almost certainly Muro-made; 7) In the trimmed Oni, BGI/Musashi is a corrupt consortium that is "joined at the hip" with Muro's Sturmanderung project (logistics, infrastructure, ACC sabotage); Muro's gambit in Chapter 2 can be a hint to BGI that their services are no longer needed and/or a threat to keep them from spilling the beans; 2) The prime symbiotes were ''prototypes''; little about them is suitable for mass production: implantation at a young age, 24/7 monitoring, potential instability, out-of-control superpowers.... Muro&Co apparently spent some time developing the "Daodan core technology" that would allow consenting adult hosts to survive in a toxic world, without turning them into uncontrollable freaks (and with minimal load on QA&Support); 4) In a way, that's close enough to Hasegawa's declared goal: people ''will'' be killed by the poisonous world, unless they embrace "hyper-evolution"; Muro is just providing some extra motivation by making sure the world ''does'' become poisonous; 3) For that matter, who is Barabas? he and Muro seem to be referencing some non-trivial events in their common past ("I'm ready for anything. You made sure of that. - There's always someone stronger. Have you forgotten? - No, I haven't. I'll be careful. - See that you are. You know the consequences of failure."), which in a way is more intriguing than Mukade's aura of mystery; in the light of the "Daodan core technology" as a part of the Sturmanderung plan, Barabas and Mukade are clearly more prototypes -- test beds for all the little "do"s and "don't"s of general-availability Daodan symbiosis; from what we see, Barabas turned out rather well with mass production in mind (strong yet docile and relatively sane); Mukade, not so much (more like a one-of-a-kind overpowered freak). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 03:32, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::I don't know that a page dedicated to gaps would be that useful, as it would require another sprawling conversation full of inter-related points, but certainly it would be better than having that discussion here (this page would be crashing our browser by now if it was still 2008, and in 2020 it's starting to spin up my laptop's fans as I type). And honestly, I don't know if another major story discussion is the best use of our time. I think just about ''anything'' else we could do (wiki maintenance, tool development, etc.) would be a better use of our time. So I can't promise to participate, if such a page does get started. But FWIW, I could go along with several of your answers above. Barabas' backstory actually seems pretty plain vanilla to me. He rose through the ranks of the Strikers until Muro noticed him. He probably challenged Muro, perhaps for leadership of the Syndicate, and Muro kicked his butt (Muro is the "someone stronger"). Muro decided to use him as a guinea pig for implantation, since if it didn't work, Barabas would be out of his hair, but if it did work, he'd be dependent on Muro for maintaining the suit which keeps him stable. This is of course just guesswork on my part. To me, the secondary symbiotes Mukade and Barabas are both clearly less stable and capable than Muro and Mai, the result of Hasegawa pulling his support from the Daodan project and going into hiding some time before. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 17:22, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::In the right proportion, and given enough good will and on-the-same-page-ness, these discussions don't have to confiscate any more of our lives than, say, Discord chat. And it would be project-oriented of course. We'd fill in gaps with specific Oni mods and sequels in mind, so supposedly that would make it all better -- and even failing that, it would feed back into wiki maintenance, by consolidating "Added Value" and factual sections all over the place. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::::::The problem for me is that any lengthy chat, on Discord or here, delays the projects I'm working on. The same must be true for you. Those projects have a lot more immediate value to the community than a game which we have no roadmap to actually producing. I'm just trying to be practical here. An hour spent editing this page delays the release of some project by an hour, and hours quickly turn to days since we're just working in our free time here. I simply can't justify doing this again if I'm going to hold to the schedule I've set for myself for 2020. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:16, 31 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::Of course you are right about prioritization issues and how tangible achievements (modding and such) should take precedence over "Oni 2" musings. I know exactly how you feel, hours turning to days and all. However, you are wrong in that this is actually ''not'' about Oni 2. It is about our common understanding of Oni 1: at the most, its hypothetical consolidation as a big mod (adding a BGI faction, correcting the known goofs, disambiguating some things, hinting at some more fanon here and there); at the least, a consolidated wiki with a solid-looking canon instead of 343 competing interpretations floating around. Oni 2 is a big "when and if", I'll grant you that, but being on the same page about Oni's elements has many tangible applications nonetheless. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 01:08, 1 August 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::Allow me to detrivialize Barabas a bit. My impression is that it isn't so much Muro who kicked Barabas's ass (well, maybe he did a little bit at some point, just to remind everyone who's boss), as it's Barabas who had to climb over other candidates' bodies to establish himself as Muro's ultimate pet. Muro made sure that Barabas would be "ready for anything" (well, almost anything) by putting him through hellish challenges, and possibly this included sparring against peers with similar aspirations. One of these challengers very nearly killed Barabas -- or maybe it was Barabas who challenged and killed the previous title holder, and is now expected to remember how "there is always someone stronger", as well as "the consequences of failure". Something like that. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::::::I also beg to differ about how both Mukade and Barabas are "clearly" less stable and capable than primes, and how this necessarily hinges on Hasegawa backing out of the project. Mukade may be less stable, and Barabas may be less capable, but they're different animals -- different prototypes exploring different approaches to mass-produced Chrysalises (something Hasegawa and Kerr hadn't even started getting into!). Muro&Co are learning from these prototypes and making decisions about where to go from there. My impression (again) is that Muro would be perfectly OK with Barabas-grade minions, and in that sense there is nothing wrong with "secondary" ending up weaker than "prime". As for Mukade, he's a freak but he ain't weak, and Muro can absolutely ''not'' afford (my impression) to surround himself with Mukade-grade secondaries. As for why Muro ended up keeping Mukade around, and even entrusted him with a whole Ninja army... that's [http://geyser.oni2.net/pics/avatars/himagain.png another story]. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::::Specifically on what you said up there: indeed Griffin's "pet doctors" wouldn't be able to just go and google up Wilderness lifeforms from their Science Prison quarters. On the other hand, prisoners can't blab, so if there's any classified knowledge that can help in analyzing the Daodan, then there's nothing that's keeping the Directorate from sharing that information with Griffin's science team. However, if we adopt BGI as an important faction and the WCG's true response to Muro and STURMANDERUNG, then perhaps there isn't much interest in Daodan development at all -- Kerr&Co are supposed to cautiously experiment with Konoko, and then BGI will just crush Muro and the Strikers, shutting down STURMANDERUNG and leaving Griffin with no reason to keep Konoko alive. If that's what the WCG's game is, then indeed it makes sense if Daodan scientists are left in the black about the alien/Daodan nature of the Wilderness. And of course all of that is moot if no one at the time of Oni's events is actually aware of the subtle Daodan influence on WP plants, let alone of Diluvians being the source of that influence. The best kept secrets are ones that ''no one'' knows about. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::Specifically on what you said up there: indeed Griffin's "pet doctors" wouldn't be able to just go and google up Wilderness lifeforms from their Science Prison quarters. On the other hand, prisoners can't blab, so if there's any classified knowledge that can help in analyzing the Daodan, then there's nothing that's keeping the Directorate from sharing that information with Griffin's science team. However, if we adopt BGI as an important faction and the WCG's true response to Muro and STURMANDERUNG, then perhaps there isn't much interest in Daodan development at all -- Kerr&Co are supposed to cautiously experiment with Konoko, and then BGI will just crush Muro and the Strikers, shutting down STURMANDERUNG and leaving Griffin with no reason to keep Konoko alive. If that's what the WCG's game is, then indeed it makes sense if Daodan scientists are left in the black about the alien/Daodan nature of the Wilderness. And of course all of that is moot if no one at the time of Oni's events is actually aware of the subtle Daodan influence on WP plants, let alone of Diluvians being the source of that influence. The best kept secrets are ones that ''no one'' knows about. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::As for whether Hasegawa and Kerr knew the truth -- I feel like we haven't even started debating how much those 2001 Bungie-made characters ''should'' have known about all that Diluvian business that ''we'' made up eons later ^_^ In my view, if you scrap the Diluvians ([[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#I_had_no_need_of_that_hypothesis|Laplace-]] and [[wp:Occam's_razor|Occam]]-style), then there doesn't need to be ''any'' link or similarity ''at all'' between Hasegawa's Chrysalis research and the virulent pathogens from the Contaminated Zones (whether they're poisonous bushes, pools of goo, WMD payloads, etc) -- well, no link apart from how the Contaminated Zones have an ample store of threats that the Chrysalis is supposed to counter. If that's what the Wilderness is (nothing ''too'' special), then Hasegawa merely regards it as a versatile repository of "stress or harm" (and incidentally "the nightmare that killed Jamie", hence his quest for a palliative). If, however, some of the flora in the Zones ''is'' phase-enhanced, then it's something that Hasegawa may have identified during his preliminary research -- after which he would have naturally tried to emulate some of those symbiotic properties in his own experiments (like synthetic cell-sized organelles that allow a Daodan entity to "stay online" after a first contact with a human host). Whichever it is, and whether an ancient race of symbiotes has anything to do with it, I think we both agree that the Daodan entities that exalted Konoko and Muro are two distinct phase entities, and also quite distinct from the entity/entities that may be influencing WP flora through phase-induced mutation. Therefore it might make sense that neither Hasegawa | :::::::::::::As for whether Hasegawa and Kerr knew the truth -- I feel like we haven't even started debating how much those 2001 Bungie-made characters ''should'' have known about all that Diluvian business that ''we'' made up eons later ^_^ In my view, if you scrap the Diluvians ([[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#I_had_no_need_of_that_hypothesis|Laplace-]] and [[wp:Occam's_razor|Occam]]-style), then there doesn't need to be ''any'' link or similarity ''at all'' between Hasegawa's Chrysalis research and the virulent pathogens from the Contaminated Zones (whether they're poisonous bushes, pools of goo, WMD payloads, etc) -- well, no link apart from how the Contaminated Zones have an ample store of threats that the Chrysalis is supposed to counter. If that's what the Wilderness is (nothing ''too'' special), then Hasegawa merely regards it as a versatile repository of "stress or harm" (and incidentally "the nightmare that killed Jamie", hence his quest for a palliative). If, however, some of the flora in the Zones ''is'' phase-enhanced, then it's something that Hasegawa may have identified during his preliminary research -- after which he would have naturally tried to emulate some of those symbiotic properties in his own experiments (like synthetic cell-sized organelles that allow a Daodan entity to "stay online" after a first contact with a human host). Whichever it is, and whether an ancient race of symbiotes has anything to do with it, I think we both agree that the Daodan entities that exalted Konoko and Muro are two distinct phase entities, and also quite distinct from the entity/entities that may be influencing WP flora through phase-induced mutation. Therefore it might make sense that neither Hasegawa nor Kerr&Co have actually drawn much of a connection. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::Short answer: I think it's a good idea to paint Griffin, Kerr and (initially) Hasegawa and Jamie as being ignorant of the full picture, whatever that picture includes. I see no reason why they *wouldn't* be ignorant. Hasegawa's later discoveries about the true nature of the BioCrisis, or the real agenda of the WCG, or the existence of the Daomen, etc. would provide ample explanation for his sudden disappearance ("No, it's all wrong! My work might do more harm than good! I've got to learn more…"). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::I'd actually like to back up to a higher level and address what I think is your largest single question, which is, "Why complicate things when it's clear that Hardy just intended the Preserves to be waste dumps?" I felt it was necessary to diverge from this approach precisely because of the derivative feeling of the "social commentary". Industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada. Been there, done that dystopia. Likewise, if Oni's world was said to be warming dangerously, I would find some way to subvert that narrative into a more interesting, less "concern of the moment" type of problem. Star Trek IV was entertaining but nowadays nobody has any idea what it's going on about with all that whale stuff. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::I'd actually like to back up to a higher level and address what I think is your largest single question, which is, "Why complicate things when it's clear that Hardy just intended the Preserves to be waste dumps?" I felt it was necessary to diverge from this approach precisely because of the derivative feeling of the "social commentary". Industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada. Been there, done that dystopia. Likewise, if Oni's world was said to be warming dangerously, I would find some way to subvert that narrative into a more interesting, less "concern of the moment" type of problem. Star Trek IV was entertaining but nowadays nobody has any idea what it's going on about with all that whale stuff. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::Well, alien-engineered global warming sure would come in handy if it made Earth more "waterworldy". I may be getting it wrong, but your Daomen/Diluvians would actually be at home in a world with no icecaps and a significantly higher ocean level. It's still be a reference to the modern-day issue of global warming, but with an alien-initiative twist that could possibly act as a redeeming factor (if done right of course). As for Hardy's take on pollution, I think that there's not a lot to diverge from, actually, because canon Oni is no longer hammering it home as "industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada". Jamie was killed by an unidentified "virus", there are mad scientists doing ghastly stuff (Navarre), bioweapons are hinted at in the manual, and Phase tech can "enhance" man-made pestilence further, power-of-seven-fold if needed. So it's not like WPs are pure eco-activist cliché and can only be redeemed through alien ingerence. At least that's how I feel about it. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:18, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::Well, alien-engineered global warming sure would come in handy if it made Earth more "waterworldy". I may be getting it wrong, but your Daomen/Diluvians would actually be at home in a world with no icecaps and a significantly higher ocean level. It's still be a reference to the modern-day issue of global warming, but with an alien-initiative twist that could possibly act as a redeeming factor (if done right of course). As for Hardy's take on pollution, I think that there's not a lot to diverge from, actually, because canon Oni is no longer hammering it home as "industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada". Jamie was killed by an unidentified "virus", there are mad scientists doing ghastly stuff (Navarre), bioweapons are hinted at in the manual, and Phase tech can "enhance" man-made pestilence further, power-of-seven-fold if needed. So it's not like WPs are pure eco-activist cliché and can only be redeemed through alien ingerence. At least that's how I feel about it. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:18, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
| Line 220: | Line 275: | ||
::::::::::::Also, if there's one thing I don't want to repeat in a sequel, it's the "no one left to trust" angle. That's been done quite thoroughly by the end of the first game. That's why one of my themes for Oni 2 was going to be finding someone that Mai *can* trust, as well as learning how to trust again. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::Also, if there's one thing I don't want to repeat in a sequel, it's the "no one left to trust" angle. That's been done quite thoroughly by the end of the first game. That's why one of my themes for Oni 2 was going to be finding someone that Mai *can* trust, as well as learning how to trust again. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::Hm. I wouldn't give Mai (m)any friends, except if it's an actual sister soul ([[Oni2:Hikari|Hikari]]), maybe [[Oni2:Zerda|Zerda]] because she's young and optimistic. The only strong allies would be temporary and/or perverted ones (like [[Oni2:Big|Big]], or Mai's inner Muro-sensei). But it wouldn't be a grey and hopeless sea of distrust, either, that's for sure. After all, even in Oni, after Kerr is dead and everything has seemingly gone to hell, Mai still seems to have a couple of [[Quotes/Speech#Friends|FRIENDS]] left at the TCTF (people who ''knew'' about her imminent "Phoenix Rising" attack, provided her with goodies, ''and didn't tell Griffin''). So, so much for "no one left". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::Hm. I wouldn't give Mai (m)any friends, except if it's an actual sister soul ([[Oni2:Hikari|Hikari]]), maybe [[Oni2:Zerda|Zerda]] because she's young and optimistic. The only strong allies would be temporary and/or perverted ones (like [[Oni2:Big|Big]], or Mai's inner Muro-sensei). But it wouldn't be a grey and hopeless sea of distrust, either, that's for sure. After all, even in Oni, after Kerr is dead and everything has seemingly gone to hell, Mai still seems to have a couple of [[Quotes/Speech#Friends|FRIENDS]] left at the TCTF (people who ''knew'' about her imminent "Phoenix Rising" attack, provided her with goodies, ''and didn't tell Griffin''). So, so much for "no one left". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::My goal was to write a story that would eventually produce the scene Guido depicted [[:Image:Guido - Rendezvous.jpg|here]]. That's not to say that all these characters become her friends. And she might experience betrayal again, but the overall idea for Oni 2 was to end with more trust (and trust in trust) than Konoko had by the end of Oni. This is all in my SoW notes. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::The antagonist in "my" Oni 2 would have been the deeply alienated head of the META technocracy (best seen as a "collective Mukade"). Very broadly, META is a Daodan-enhanced government, forcing hyperevolutionary paradigm shifts on post-Oni society and essentially xenoforming civilization itself (rather than the biosphere's lower lifeforms). The natural resistance to this process is embodied by Phoenix folks (in the same way as Konoko's mind and body resist the hyperevolutionary alienation brought about by her Chrysalis). This is the basic concept of host-Chrysalis "symbiosis" (actually a struggle on the verge of insanity and alienation), transposed from the level of an individual to that of civilization as a whole. I've always thought of it as fairly straightforward and having enough plot-driving potential (once the initially underpowered protagonist reveals herself as a Daodan symbiote, she'll become an enemy both for META and for most of her Phoenix buddies). As for the ultimate goal for META's hyperevolution -- there doesn't have to be any, but if tropes must be, then either META is "good" and intends to avert a "clash of two worlds" kind of threat -- like the Diluvians waking up and/or phase portals opening all over the place (with water and/or Screamers and/or furry zerglings pouring through), or a good old comet or asteroid headed our way... Or, META is "evil", performing an increasingly unfathomable alienation of humanity, with little regard for those old-school humans who (like Phoenix - and Konoko?) are not welcoming such a transition. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::The antagonist in "my" Oni 2 would have been the deeply alienated head of the META technocracy (best seen as a "collective Mukade"). Very broadly, META is a Daodan-enhanced government, forcing hyperevolutionary paradigm shifts on post-Oni society and essentially xenoforming civilization itself (rather than the biosphere's lower lifeforms). The natural resistance to this process is embodied by Phoenix folks (in the same way as Konoko's mind and body resist the hyperevolutionary alienation brought about by her Chrysalis). This is the basic concept of host-Chrysalis "symbiosis" (actually a struggle on the verge of insanity and alienation), transposed from the level of an individual to that of civilization as a whole. I've always thought of it as fairly straightforward and having enough plot-driving potential (once the initially underpowered protagonist reveals herself as a Daodan symbiote, she'll become an enemy both for META and for most of her Phoenix buddies). As for the ultimate goal for META's hyperevolution -- there doesn't have to be any, but if tropes must be, then either META is "good" and intends to avert a "clash of two worlds" kind of threat -- like the Diluvians waking up and/or phase portals opening all over the place (with water and/or Screamers and/or furry zerglings pouring through), or a good old comet or asteroid headed our way... Or, META is "evil", performing an increasingly unfathomable alienation of humanity, with little regard for those old-school humans who (like Phoenix - and Konoko?) are not welcoming such a transition. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::See my comments above on my preference for a more concrete story. There's nothing wrong with an alienated techno-hegemon, but if he's the only villain in the story, it feels a bit world-weary for me. I want a sense of urgency and visceral danger in Oni 2. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::See my comments above on my preference for a more concrete story. There's nothing wrong with an alienated techno-hegemon, but if he's the only villain in the story, it feels a bit world-weary for me. I want a sense of urgency and visceral danger in Oni 2. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= | :::::::::::::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAjCIgPX95w World-weary], yes (oh yes!), but if he sends [[:Image:Duality concept art - BioCorp VR avatar.jpg|THESE]] after you, then you'll still be in more than enough visceral danger, trust me -- and that's only part of what META has in store. Also please don't ignore what I said above about how META could be "good" and merely building up strength to counter greater threats (Diluvians/Screamers/whatever) -- it's all there in my iteration, so don't act like it isn't. And of course the Phoenix faction would be Mai's more or less radical enemy (once it becomes clear that she's "one of [[:Image:Duality concept art - BioCorp VR avatar.jpg|THEM]]"), and multiple other factions would either pre-exist or split off from META and Phoenix, following Mai's/META's actions and/or a parallel evolution of the Diluvian/Phase threat. If that's not potential for a concrete story with urgency and such, then I don't know what is. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::I'm not doubting that your Oni 2 would have a visceral aspect to the gameplay, but I was questioning how compelling this character would be on a story level. Even talking to the guy in a cutscene could be a drag. But I'm not saying it can't work. And yes, I did favor the idea of having Mai hook up with a cell of the Rebellion, but eventually have a major falling out with them (perhaps when they find out who/what she is). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::::::P.S. Here I was, looking into [[wp:Ediacaran biota|Ediacaran biota]] and the [[wp:Hallucigenia|Cambrian explosion]] (musing on possible Diluvian candidates), and then it hit me: tectonics! There is actually a major problem with the Diluvians going into a deep stasis following the P-Tr extinction event, and regaining consciousness only 250+ Ma later. As it is, plate tectonics have either subducted or elevated the entirety of the pre-Triassic seabed (Panthalassa), so either way the Diluvians would have gone from dormant to extinct long before they'd have had a chance to "stir up trouble" in 2000 AD. The only way to resolve this is to imply that, in the meantime, the Diluvians haven't just been "stirring in their sleep" to make adjustments to the biosphere; they must also have had a cycle where they'd wake up and relocate -- away from subduction trenches and towards oceanic rifts. During such "sleepwalking" events they'd probably be even more phase-active than while "stirring", triggering episodes of high "phase presence", along with evolutionary explosions. The emergence of phase phenomena prior to Oni's events, and the possible alienation of Wilderness Preserves can be part of such an event -- a mere side effect of Diluvian migration along the ocean floor, rather than a "deliberate" xenoforming, let alone a means to an "invasion". It will still be ominous, of course, but rather because of the wide range of phase hazards (and alienating mutations) that the otherwise placid creatures are causing to appear. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:58, 30 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::P.S. Here I was, looking into [[wp:Ediacaran biota|Ediacaran biota]] and the [[wp:Hallucigenia|Cambrian explosion]] (musing on possible Diluvian candidates), and then it hit me: tectonics! There is actually a major problem with the Diluvians going into a deep stasis following the P-Tr extinction event, and regaining consciousness only 250+ Ma later. As it is, plate tectonics have either subducted or elevated the entirety of the pre-Triassic seabed (Panthalassa), so either way the Diluvians would have gone from dormant to extinct long before they'd have had a chance to "stir up trouble" in 2000 AD. The only way to resolve this is to imply that, in the meantime, the Diluvians haven't just been "stirring in their sleep" to make adjustments to the biosphere; they must also have had a cycle where they'd wake up and relocate -- away from subduction trenches and towards oceanic rifts. During such "sleepwalking" events they'd probably be even more phase-active than while "stirring", triggering episodes of high "phase presence", along with evolutionary explosions. The emergence of phase phenomena prior to Oni's events, and the possible alienation of Wilderness Preserves can be part of such an event -- a mere side effect of Diluvian migration along the ocean floor, rather than a "deliberate" xenoforming, let alone a means to an "invasion". It will still be ominous, of course, but rather because of the wide range of phase hazards (and alienating mutations) that the otherwise placid creatures are causing to appear. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:58, 30 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::Not a bad suggestion about the aliens' occasional stirrings leading to an increase in phase activity. I was aware of the issue with ocean floor subduction (see [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Story]] and search for "ocean floor"). I considered it a positive, as even if there was an alien civilization down there at the time of the P-Tr boundary, it would be buried by now, thus explaining why we haven't noticed its ruins. In fact, rather than our needing to explain how all the aliens could still be alive, the continual overturning of the ocean floor could actually explain why there are so few of them left, as I desired to be the case in my story. Perhaps only some of their sleep chambers have stayed out of trouble and survived this long. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::::::Not a bad suggestion about the aliens' occasional stirrings leading to an increase in phase activity. I was aware of the issue with ocean floor subduction (see [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Story]] and search for "ocean floor"). I considered it a positive, as even if there was an alien civilization down there at the time of the P-Tr boundary, it would be buried by now, thus explaining why we haven't noticed its ruins. In fact, rather than our needing to explain how all the aliens could still be alive, the continual overturning of the ocean floor could actually explain why there are so few of them left, as I desired to be the case in my story. Perhaps only some of their sleep chambers have stayed out of trouble and survived this long. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::My point above is that ''all'' of Panthalassa's seabed has been buried in sediment and either subducted and molten, or exposed and eroded. So if they were indeed a civilization of builders -- as opposed to primitive organisms (my suggestion) --, then, on one hand, some of their architecture ''might'' have been preserved to some extent along with Silurian/Devonian/Carboniferous/Permian fossils, and that's also where we'd find "sleep chambers" if there were any -- in ruins or fossilized (depending on whether the chambers are organic or not) -- and their occupants. Maybe those chambers that weren't subducted (and ended up in fossil layers) were made of phase-enhanced concrete and steel, and thus a few Diluvians may still be able to break free, say, from [[wp:Alnif|Alnif]] (which hosts fossils of trilobites from the Cambrian all the way to the late Permian). On the other hand, no matter how you look at it, if a once great civilization went so far as to build sleep chambers that would carry them through the ages, so that they could roam the Earth once more -- and then most of them were crushed by tectonics -- that would be a rather [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw silly way to go] for those who didn't make it. Would it not? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | :::::::::::::My point above is that ''all'' of Panthalassa's seabed has been buried in sediment and either subducted and molten, or exposed and eroded. So if they were indeed a civilization of builders -- as opposed to primitive organisms (my suggestion) --, then, on one hand, some of their architecture ''might'' have been preserved to some extent along with Silurian/Devonian/Carboniferous/Permian fossils, and that's also where we'd find "sleep chambers" if there were any -- in ruins or fossilized (depending on whether the chambers are organic or not) -- and their occupants. Maybe those chambers that weren't subducted (and ended up in fossil layers) were made of phase-enhanced concrete and steel, and thus a few Diluvians may still be able to break free, say, from [[wp:Alnif|Alnif]] (which hosts fossils of trilobites from the Cambrian all the way to the late Permian). On the other hand, no matter how you look at it, if a once great civilization went so far as to build sleep chambers that would carry them through the ages, so that they could roam the Earth once more -- and then most of them were crushed by tectonics -- that would be a rather [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw silly way to go] for those who didn't make it. Would it not? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::::::My take on this (which redeems the Diluvians' godlike intellect, if anything) is that perhaps they wouldn't have any "chambers" (there's nothing wrong with lying low on the ocean floor, with a bit of sediment on top), and that they'd have instinctive alarm calls that would periodically wake them up when a subduction or a shallowing is imminent (or when the ocean's acidity becomes critical and such), which would allow them to react and/or relocate. This implies that they'd have cycles of long stasis and brief awareness, which (if we assume "Phase | :::::::::::::My take on this (which redeems the Diluvians' godlike intellect, if anything) is that perhaps they wouldn't have any "chambers" (there's nothing wrong with lying low on the ocean floor, with a bit of sediment on top), and that they'd have instinctive alarm calls that would periodically wake them up when a subduction or a shallowing is imminent (or when the ocean's acidity becomes critical and such), which would allow them to react and/or relocate. This implies that they'd have cycles of long stasis and brief awareness, which (if we assume "Phase activity" to be a side effect of Diluvian activity) may coincide with some of the more enigmatic evolutionary explosions and extinctions (P-Tr being only one of those). Not having chambers (or architecture), they'd be free to relocate to anywhere on the ocean floor, as long as it's far enough from a subduction zone. As primitive beings hyperevolved from Cambrian/Ediacaran biota, they'd be mostly soft-bodied, but possibly with a carapace made of rock and sediment (not unlike [[wp:Caddisfly#Underwater_structures|Caddisfly larvae]]). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::::::::My notion, though I didn't spell it out, was that their sleep chambers were mobile and took measures to save their occupants. But yes, they could just be hibernating and occasionally waking up and moving. Seems unlikely they would last that long without some kind of artificial preservation, though, considering even the mountains are younger than they would be…. Unlike you, I never envisioned the Diluvians as being godlike in intellect, so I see no reason why they would have to be broadly successful at surviving millions of years in stasis. They may never have thought they'd have to wait that long to awaken. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:58, 7 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::To be clearer on my mental image of the Daomen, I was thinking of something highly structured and differentiated that could have existed on land. Placing such a creature in the pre-Permian era would mean it would have to be something like a [[wp:Dinocephalia|dinocephalian]], the lost forebear of the dinosaurs. The main problems with that idea are the fact that reptiles of this era were more or less 100% quadrupedal, which means no "hands" freed up to do things like make tools, plus most of them had tiny craniums and so were likely unintelligent (some Moschops had [[wp:File:Tapinocephalidae_-_Moschops_capensis.JPG|huge craniums]] but were very much gravity-bound to stand on all four of their feet). However, the timing is right (middle-Permian) to explain the sudden disappearance of coal and other suspiciously-simultaneous events like the sudden rise in CO2 and the acidification of the oceans (read [[wp:Guadalupian|this short page]] for some intriguing detail on the time period where the dinocephalians had their sudden rise and fall in the fossil record). Maybe the "Daomen" were descendants of the earlier [[wp:Troodontidae|troodons]] which we haven't found fossils for because of the nature of their extinction and the survivors' move to the oceans. There's some [https://www.sciencefocus.com/nature/inside-the-mind-of-a-dinosaur-2 very recent evidence] for the tyrannosaurs being a lot smarter than we realized, having large brains for their ilk. This would include the T. rex, but also the intriguingly human-sized [[wp:Timurlengia|Timurlengia]]. Note that these were bipedal reptiles, albeit with frustratingly short forelimbs. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:48, 9 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::::::::If we're going to consider the ocean as the habitat and source of the Diluvians, then I think we should be looking seriously at the octopus, which has been around since [[wp:Octopus#Evolution|before the P-Tr boundary]]. The octopus is the most likely oceanic life to succeed us as Earth's dominant intelligent species, should anything happen to us, which is why I suggested at the end of [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Story#Daodan|this section]] of my Story page that the game should end with the Daodan being passed on (bequeathed, accidentally) to the octopus. I suppose we could invert that and ask, What if some type of (no doubt giant) octopus already preceded us as the dominant species, until something went wrong and they had to retreat into sleep chambers until it blew over? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:48, 9 July 2020 (CEST) | |||
===Daodan Genesis=== | ===Daodan Genesis=== | ||
| Line 258: | Line 318: | ||
:::Researching 1930s comics is a honorable endeavour. I will refrain from criticism henceforth. My last two cents, though, since "hooey" is a joke word, kind of like Watterson's "Hamster Huey and the Gooey Kablooie", how can you be sure that it's the actual Basenji that those fictional characters are talking about, and not, say, the undocumented common ancestor of the Basenji and the Dingo? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:33, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | :::Researching 1930s comics is a honorable endeavour. I will refrain from criticism henceforth. My last two cents, though, since "hooey" is a joke word, kind of like Watterson's "Hamster Huey and the Gooey Kablooie", how can you be sure that it's the actual Basenji that those fictional characters are talking about, and not, say, the undocumented common ancestor of the Basenji and the Dingo? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:33, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::P.S. A propos mind-blowing stuff written NN years ago, I'd (re)recommend Lem's ''Summa Technologiae'' (1964) as a must-read, but AFAIK it still doesn't have an English translation. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:56, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | :::P.S. A propos mind-blowing stuff written NN years ago, I'd (re)recommend Lem's ''Summa Technologiae'' (1964) as a must-read, but AFAIK it still doesn't have an English translation. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:56, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::"Hooey" is a slang term meaning "nonsense", not to be confused with the first name Huey. But in this case the name is onomatopoetic, as the Basenji makes a [https:// | ::::"Hooey" is a slang term meaning "nonsense", not to be confused with the first name Huey. But in this case the name is onomatopoetic, as the Basenji makes a [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvHCtSsqOnM&t=35s distinct "hooooo-ey" call]. This is quite different from the dingo's "arrooo". Also, note the curled tail on the Basenji and its propensity for standing on its back feet, which inspired Eugene the Jeep's appearance and behavior. Segar would not have been thinking of a now-extinct ancestor species; it's only recent DNA evidence that links them to the dingo. My guess is that dog breeders had not settled on the name Basenji at the time of the strip, when the dogs were just being imported from Africa (they were introduced to the U.S. in the 1930s). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 23:12, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::Hm. OK. (I wasn't suggesting "Huey" as a joke word, rather "gooey" and "kablooie".) Not by the way at all, I tried to think of older examples of "xenoimpregnation" in popular culture (fiction). Couldn't think of non-human females, but the Immaculate Conception came to mind, and Zeus's mortal children, and probably many more in Hindu culture and whatnot. Sure, that kind of stuff is never presented as a kindred "life cell" from a "fourth-dimensional [sic] world", but the estrus part is there, at least. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 00:50, 8 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::Hm. OK. (I wasn't suggesting "Huey" as a joke word, rather "gooey" and "kablooie".) Not by the way at all, I tried to think of older examples of "xenoimpregnation" in popular culture (fiction). Couldn't think of non-human females, but the Immaculate Conception came to mind, and Zeus's mortal children, and probably many more in Hindu culture and whatnot. Sure, that kind of stuff is never presented as a kindred "life cell" from a "fourth-dimensional [sic] world", but the estrus part is there, at least. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 00:50, 8 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::Good point, I suppose we'd have to count impregnation by god if we're really trying to go back. (Little bit of trivia for you, the teaching of the Immaculate Conception is actually that Mary was born without sin; no relation to the teaching of the Virgin Birth. I'm willing to bet even a lot of Catholics don't realize this.) --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::Good point, I suppose we'd have to count impregnation by god if we're really trying to go back. (Little bit of trivia for you, the teaching of the Immaculate Conception is actually that Mary was born without sin; no relation to the teaching of the Virgin Birth. I'm willing to bet even a lot of Catholics don't realize this.) --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::Indeed I meant the Virgin Birth thing, although I wouldn't say the Immaculate Conception has no relation whatsoever. It's the same Mary, and there were discussions about how maybe the IC wasn't just about the miraculous lack of original sin, but also about the lack of personal sin (by choice) right up to the Virgin Birth, and how maybe Mary was conceived without Anne and Joachim actually doing it (or liking it)... But you're still right, of course, I meant the Virgin Birth. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 10:36, 8 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::Indeed I meant the Virgin Birth thing, although I wouldn't say the Immaculate Conception has no relation whatsoever. It's the same Mary, and there were discussions about how maybe the IC wasn't just about the miraculous lack of original sin, but also about the lack of personal sin (by choice) right up to the Virgin Birth, and how maybe Mary was conceived without Anne and Joachim actually doing it (or liking it)... But you're still right, of course, I meant the Virgin Birth. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 10:36, 8 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::P.S. You may find it interesting that in Russian (as opposed to other languages), the term "Nyeporochnoye zachatiye" -- i.e. "immaculate (lit. sinless) conception" -- is used both for Christ and for Mary, and by default it's used for Christ. There is no separate term for "virgin birth" or "virgin conception". In Latin there's "Virginalis conceptio" (Christ) as opposed to "Immaculata conceptio" (Mary). That sort of explains why my Soviet-Russian mind naturally picked the words "Immaculate Conception" up there. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:05, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::P.S. You may find it interesting that in Russian (as opposed to other languages), the term "Nyeporochnoye zachatiye" -- i.e. "immaculate (lit. sinless) conception" -- is used both for Christ and for Mary, and by default it's used for Christ. There is no separate term for "virgin birth" or "virgin conception". In Latin there's "Virginalis conceptio" (Christ) as opposed to "Immaculata conceptio" (Mary). That sort of explains why my Soviet-Russian mind naturally picked the words "Immaculate Conception" up there. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:05, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::I see, that explains a lot. This seems to be the result of the schism between Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism (see [[wp: Immaculate_Conception#Eastern_Orthodoxy|here]]). The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not declared dogma by the Pope until 1854. My goodness, this was a far-ranging conversation, wasn't it? We went from Popeye to Popery. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::I see, that explains a lot. This seems to be the result of the schism between Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism (see [[wp:Immaculate_Conception#Eastern_Orthodoxy|here]]). The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not declared dogma by the Pope until 1854. My goodness, this was a far-ranging conversation, wasn't it? We went from Popeye to Popery. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
===<end of page>=== | ===<end of page>=== | ||
| Line 276: | Line 336: | ||
:::::::Try searching for a sentence from those pages and you will see (I think it's just that "User:" and "User_talk:" are not search-indexed in general). It's totally OK if you don't care about the public visibility of those pages. It's just that I had the same semi-private attitude about this TNZ page in its current form -- my explanation thereof wasn't good enough to prevent a hasty cat from you, and that's fine too, I guess. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 00:46, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::Try searching for a sentence from those pages and you will see (I think it's just that "User:" and "User_talk:" are not search-indexed in general). It's totally OK if you don't care about the public visibility of those pages. It's just that I had the same semi-private attitude about this TNZ page in its current form -- my explanation thereof wasn't good enough to prevent a hasty cat from you, and that's fine too, I guess. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 00:46, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::Apologies for any miscommunication we seem to have had. My assumption was that anything placed in a main namespace such as Oni2: was fodder for public commentary, and anything under User: was private ramblings, unless otherwise labeled. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::::Apologies for any miscommunication we seem to have had. My assumption was that anything placed in a main namespace such as Oni2: was fodder for public commentary, and anything under User: was private ramblings, unless otherwise labeled. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
===City populations=== | |||
:''"Oni speaks of 417 regional facilities, which roughly corresponds to the number of modern cities with populations above 1 million."'' | |||
Not a terribly important point, but while thinking about the ACCs today, I was interested enough to look up city populations. Going by [https://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic-social/products/dyb/dyb_2021/ this page] – see Population > Table 8 – it seems that it's more like 200 cities with 1 million+ people; if you drop down to #400 on the list, the cities have 500,000-600,000 people. So hypothetically even mid-sized cities could be covered by ACCs. But a key question is whether a sprawling metropolis such as Beijing or NYC could get by on one ACC or if it would need a dozen of them, or even more. Obviously there's no indication of how much air an ACC can 'suck in, treat, then belch back out', so it's really up to us. If it takes one ACC to produce breathable air for every one million people then that's a problem for the mid-sized cities, because the top 130 cities cumulatively hold around 417 million people. In that case, there's no ACCs left over for a city with 1.3 million people or less – sorry, [[Bungie West|San Jose]], you don't quite make the cut. In the smaller cities I guess everyone has to [[:Image:TXMPPOSTER4.png|wear a cumbersome mask]] to work/school and back (buildings could have heavily-filtered air systems), and outdoor life is basically unenjoyable/nonexistent. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 01:47, 7 April 2023 (CEST) | |||
Of course, all these numbers are based on "present day, present time" and it's hard to say if Oni's world of 2032 would have the same city distribution and density. It also assumes ACCs are standardized units of the same size and capability, which we don't know to be the case. Perhaps giant ACCs are built for the largest cities, challenging how much information we can derive from the simple number "417". While it's true that the physics of air flow would naturally limit the area of effect of a facility that emits clean air from all sides, it's also possible that extensive pipes could be carrying the output of a gigantic ACC across a large city. However the pipes would need to be bi-directional: one channel would suck in the air that's to be treated and the other channel would belch it back out. This is still probably cheaper than building many smaller ACCs throughout a city. My pet theory is that the ACCs are underground (at least, the one in Oni), so the only visible space an ACC takes up in the city could be the massive pipeline carrying air to and fro. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 01:47, 7 April 2023 (CEST) | |||
==Notes== | ==Notes== | ||
===Canon quotes=== | ===Canon quotes=== | ||
{{Reflist}} | |||
===geyser=== | ===geyser=== | ||
{{Reflist|group=geyser}} | |||
[[Category:Oni 2]] | |||