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Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions
Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events (view source)
Revision as of 14:11, 10 June 2020
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::::::I agree with the problematic aspects of time travel. Even if the spatial dislocation could be solved, there's that pesky matter of the causality paradoxes. That's why I prefer to have the twist be that there's no time travel involved. In this scenario, the Daodan is also in the present and is being transported from the bottom of the ocean to land by phase tech. Scientists may think they're retrieving stuff from another universe but they're really just connecting to the remnants of a civilization that buried itself in the ocean as its world collapsed. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::I agree with the problematic aspects of time travel. Even if the spatial dislocation could be solved, there's that pesky matter of the causality paradoxes. That's why I prefer to have the twist be that there's no time travel involved. In this scenario, the Daodan is also in the present and is being transported from the bottom of the ocean to land by phase tech. Scientists may think they're retrieving stuff from another universe but they're really just connecting to the remnants of a civilization that buried itself in the ocean as its world collapsed. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::Forward time travel (as in your case) doesn't have causality issues, and a number of sci-fi writers have gone that way (one-way time-travel only -- ever forward). Then again, we are already traveling "ever forward", albeit slowly, so fast-forward time-travel is really akin to "immaterial hibernation": jump into the Phase, freeze there, and then spring back. Alternatively, if there is a time-freezing "phase flavor", there may also be a time-accelerating one (jump into the Phase, hyperevolve there, and spring back -- as long as you survive the jumps, that can be convenient). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:05, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::Forward time travel (as in your case) doesn't have causality issues, and a number of sci-fi writers have gone that way (one-way time-travel only -- ever forward). Then again, we are already traveling "ever forward", albeit slowly, so fast-forward time-travel is really akin to "immaterial hibernation": jump into the Phase, freeze there, and then spring back. Alternatively, if there is a time-freezing "phase flavor", there may also be a time-accelerating one (jump into the Phase, hyperevolve there, and spring back -- as long as you survive the jumps, that can be convenient). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:05, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::To be clear, my idea of the phase veil is that it's a dislocation, not a place. It either transports through time or space or dimensions (in the colloquial "from another dimension" sense of the word). So in the case where it's a time dislocation, it won't be one-way time-travel because anything that comes through the phase veil is being removed from the past. Hence you have a two-way cause-effect where (from the point of view of the past) the future is changing the present, meaning that the usual causality paradox is introduced. Creating a concept of a "Phase" that is a place, like the Phantom Zone of Superman comics, would indeed clear up that problem, or at least give the ''appearance'' of avoiding paradoxes, which is the more important thing. But as I said, my most recent idea was to reveal at the end that it's really just a space dislocation taking place after all — a sort of "the calls are coming from inside the house" twist that, done right, will be much creepier than the alternative takes on the Phase/phase veil. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::If it were up to me, I wouldn't keep much of those "[https://3dbrute.com/homunculus-loxodontus/ Waiters]" or their human/Daodan proxies, except for the notion that the Phase is tied to "Gaia", i.e., that you can't do phase tech in outer space. It would explain why Oni's sci-fi-powered civilization isn't actively colonizing Mars or the Moon, and it would keep the plot "Earth-centered" in a [[wp:Ring Around the Sun (novel)|Ring Around the Sun]] kind of way. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:06, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::If it were up to me, I wouldn't keep much of those "[https://3dbrute.com/homunculus-loxodontus/ Waiters]" or their human/Daodan proxies, except for the notion that the Phase is tied to "Gaia", i.e., that you can't do phase tech in outer space. It would explain why Oni's sci-fi-powered civilization isn't actively colonizing Mars or the Moon, and it would keep the plot "Earth-centered" in a [[wp:Ring Around the Sun (novel)|Ring Around the Sun]] kind of way. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:06, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::To me, it would be much more surprising if the world of Oni ''was'' doing anything advanced in space. Where do you think ''we'll'' be in 12 years? Even colonizing the moon? Doubtful (sadly). Oni's world doesn't feel a lot more advanced than ours except for their phase tech, and there's nothing in the canonical depiction of that technology which would aid in settling another world. I would expect Oni's world to be ''less'' advanced in matters of space than ours, seeing as they have some very time-consuming and expensive issues to deal with here on Earth. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::The only problem then is, I'm no longer sure that it's still Oni that we're talking about and not some Mass Effect DLC (with timeless Leviathans at the bottom of oceans, or Reapers chilling in the darkness of space until it's "time to collect"). I know you're convinced that the dying Jamie (as dreamed up by Konoko) kinda looks like Barabas, but drawing a parallel between Jamie's complete cellular breakdown and Mai's or Muro's integrity-preserving symbiosis is a bit of a stretch even by my standards. You seem to imply that the "flowering shrub" is Daodan-enhanced (like Konoko? or in some other way that Oni says nothing about?), and Jamie, not having the same DNA signature as the shrub, is destroyed upon contact with its Chrysalis instead of being "reinforced or replaced". So how does this feed back into Oni? If Konoko spits in Griffin's face, does he rot alive in minutes? is that how it works? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::The only problem then is, I'm no longer sure that it's still Oni that we're talking about and not some Mass Effect DLC (with timeless Leviathans at the bottom of oceans, or Reapers chilling in the darkness of space until it's "time to collect"). I know you're convinced that the dying Jamie (as dreamed up by Konoko) kinda looks like Barabas, but drawing a parallel between Jamie's complete cellular breakdown and Mai's or Muro's integrity-preserving symbiosis is a bit of a stretch even by my standards. You seem to imply that the "flowering shrub" is Daodan-enhanced (like Konoko? or in some other way that Oni says nothing about?), and Jamie, not having the same DNA signature as the shrub, is destroyed upon contact with its Chrysalis instead of being "reinforced or replaced". So how does this feed back into Oni? If Konoko spits in Griffin's face, does he rot alive in minutes? is that how it works? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::Lot to respond to here, but I'll try to make it quick: | ::::::Lot to respond to here, but I'll try to make it quick: | ||
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:::::::"We both agree that Hasegawa invented the Chrysalis to tame the Daodan, don't we?" -- Erm, no, where did you get that idea? ^_^ In my impression, Hasegawa & Kerr (and all the other Daodan scientists) are rather humble about the Chrysalis, and are quick to recognize that it is barely "tameable" itself (you can sedate it, you can put it in cryo, but other than that it's "bound to run free"). To me, Hasegawa merely discovered (perhaps accidentally) the right experimental conditions under which a Daodan can come in from the Phase, "exalt" a human cell, and "keep exalting it" by staying phase-tethered. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:05, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::"We both agree that Hasegawa invented the Chrysalis to tame the Daodan, don't we?" -- Erm, no, where did you get that idea? ^_^ In my impression, Hasegawa & Kerr (and all the other Daodan scientists) are rather humble about the Chrysalis, and are quick to recognize that it is barely "tameable" itself (you can sedate it, you can put it in cryo, but other than that it's "bound to run free"). To me, Hasegawa merely discovered (perhaps accidentally) the right experimental conditions under which a Daodan can come in from the Phase, "exalt" a human cell, and "keep exalting it" by staying phase-tethered. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:05, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::You seem to be implying that the bush from the Zone is "wild"/untamed in the sense that it has defense mechanisms that are in-sync with its immediate surroundings, but out of proportion with ordinary Earth fauna/flora. In that view, you present the Chrysalis as a "tamed" counterpart of Zone fauna because Konoko doesn't have acid blood and doesn't spread deadly viruses with every footstep. However, apart from being poisonous, a Zone bush looks pretty much "tame" (ordinary-looking, not giant or deformed, no horns or alien glow, nothing paranormal happening nearby). So I am really not sure that Konoko's symbiosis is in any way limited/restrained as compared to that poisonous bush. If anything, they look to me like two completely different kinds of symbiosis, with two completely different origins/explanations, and to imply that one is a "tamed" form of the other is quite a departure indeed. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:05, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::You seem to be implying that the bush from the Zone is "wild"/untamed in the sense that it has defense mechanisms that are in-sync with its immediate surroundings, but out of proportion with ordinary Earth fauna/flora. In that view, you present the Chrysalis as a "tamed" counterpart of Zone fauna because Konoko doesn't have acid blood and doesn't spread deadly viruses with every footstep. However, apart from being poisonous, a Zone bush looks pretty much "tame" (ordinary-looking, not giant or deformed, no horns or alien glow, nothing paranormal happening nearby). So I am really not sure that Konoko's symbiosis is in any way limited/restrained as compared to that poisonous bush. If anything, they look to me like two completely different kinds of symbiosis, with two completely different origins/explanations, and to imply that one is a "tamed" form of the other is quite a departure indeed. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:05, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::Strange that suddenly you are using the "dream photos" as a visual reference for what the bush looked like :-) Usually you're the first to point out that we didn't see what actually happened in the Preserve (and surely you're not going to say that you're trusting the newspaper account instead :->). I see no reason, though, why all the plants and bugs in the Preserve have to be crazy-looking mutants in order to be Daodan-powered. Keep in mind that Hardy also believed that life there was incredibly mutated (Cf. the giant man-eating fish), so why doesn't the game depict the Wilderness as full of crazy killer plants 30 feet high? You're running to an over-dramatized extreme depiction of the Wilderness that is neither necessary nor practical from a game design perspective. There's no reason to assume that the Daodan Chrysalis in a human behaves like the life that has been evolving under Daodan power for generations. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::Not sure what you mean with the role of "game design" (2D/3D themes/assets? or gameplay choices?), but I'm trying very hard to keep additions and "departures" to a minimum. Biopunk, as far as I can tell, is already in Oni (it doesn't matter that it started as a GITS clone -- by 2001 it already had an identity of its own, with the original SLD and Daodan/Chrysalis concepts at its core). And the balance with cyberpunk is achieved quite naturally, because you still have those huge machines for growing/monitoring all the biotech, the man-machine interface, sub-dermal chips and cables, cyborg parts, etc. As for the rest, I tend to list alternative takes intermixed with my preferences, so you may not always realize how little I'm actually adding. For one thing, I haven't had any need for Forerunners or Protheans so far. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:05, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::::Not sure what you mean with the role of "game design" (2D/3D themes/assets? or gameplay choices?), but I'm trying very hard to keep additions and "departures" to a minimum. Biopunk, as far as I can tell, is already in Oni (it doesn't matter that it started as a GITS clone -- by 2001 it already had an identity of its own, with the original SLD and Daodan/Chrysalis concepts at its core). And the balance with cyberpunk is achieved quite naturally, because you still have those huge machines for growing/monitoring all the biotech, the man-machine interface, sub-dermal chips and cables, cyborg parts, etc. As for the rest, I tend to list alternative takes intermixed with my preferences, so you may not always realize how little I'm actually adding. For one thing, I haven't had any need for Forerunners or Protheans so far. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:05, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::::"Not sure what you mean with the role of "game design" (2D/3D themes/assets? or gameplay choices?)" — the former. The atmosphere of the game will be cyberpunk precisely to the degree that the levels are set in cyberpunk surroundings. If the focus, on the other hand, was on exploring the Wilderness, it would be a very different game indeed. I'm not suggesting we do that, if you look at my settings concepts on the SoW Settings page. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
::::::::"For one thing, I haven't had any need for Forerunners or Protheans so far". No, just intelligent non-corporeal aliens that guide the development of the Daodan telepathically from across the phase veil ^_^ --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::Mostly agree about the Wilderness Preserves being mostly overgrown -- not like a large dump can't be covered in greenery, mind you, or covered-up by limiting access to satellite imagery (Oni's space programs are not the same as NASA's and ESA's, so we don't know what satellites they had in orbit before the Uprising, and who was running them). At any rate, Hasegawa's tale is really telling us that "the world outside the ACCs is poisonous" so, at least in the one Zone that he and Jamie set foot into, the virus (or whatever) had apparently "gone to seed" in most of the Zone's lifeforms (that's if it wasn't in fact airborne, merely using Jamie's open wound as a way in). This is not telling us that the virus (or whatever) didn't spread from a man-made container discarded somewhere deep in the forest, or from a secret underground lab, or from an enigmatic phase portal (or xenoforming time capsule). Like I said earlier, Zones (Preserves) don't all have to look the same or kill their local Jamies in the same fashion. It's only your own Wilderness fixation that's giving you that idea. (For what it's worth, would Jamie's Zone cause "biological contamination" on a plane passing overhead, that would be immediately noticed and reported by pilots? I wouldn't be so sure.) --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::Mostly agree about the Wilderness Preserves being mostly overgrown -- not like a large dump can't be covered in greenery, mind you, or covered-up by limiting access to satellite imagery (Oni's space programs are not the same as NASA's and ESA's, so we don't know what satellites they had in orbit before the Uprising, and who was running them). At any rate, Hasegawa's tale is really telling us that "the world outside the ACCs is poisonous" so, at least in the one Zone that he and Jamie set foot into, the virus (or whatever) had apparently "gone to seed" in most of the Zone's lifeforms (that's if it wasn't in fact airborne, merely using Jamie's open wound as a way in). This is not telling us that the virus (or whatever) didn't spread from a man-made container discarded somewhere deep in the forest, or from a secret underground lab, or from an enigmatic phase portal (or xenoforming time capsule). Like I said earlier, Zones (Preserves) don't all have to look the same or kill their local Jamies in the same fashion. It's only your own Wilderness fixation that's giving you that idea. (For what it's worth, would Jamie's Zone cause "biological contamination" on a plane passing overhead, that would be immediately noticed and reported by pilots? I wouldn't be so sure.) --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::"would Jamie's Zone cause 'biological contamination' on a plane passing overhead?" In my conception, the Wilderness is emitting all kinds of stuff all the time, and there's not just flora down there, but fauna too. So there's any number of things that could cause biological contamination, including bugs that attached themselves to the fuselage, or splattered on it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::"would Jamie's Zone cause 'biological contamination' on a plane passing overhead?" In my conception, the Wilderness is emitting all kinds of stuff all the time, and there's not just flora down there, but fauna too. So there's any number of things that could cause biological contamination, including bugs that attached themselves to the fuselage, or splattered on it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||