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User talk:Iritscen: Difference between revisions
→Importing from Blender: making my (lack of) bold italics consistent, bringing back "interjection italics", replying
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:--[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:59, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | :--[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:59, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::General note 1: please provide links to every file you "cite" as an example | ::General note 1: please provide links to every file you "cite" as an example, because "I extracted Motoko from the files you posted" or "geyser's earlier copy had triangles connected" just isn't informative enough. "Help us help you help us all." | ||
::General note 2: please stop guessing and start looking for systematic ways of investigating problems, because stuff like | ::General note 2: please stop guessing and start looking for systematic ways of investigating problems, because stuff like | ||
:::"Its hard to say where the problem is, it could be Cheetah3D or it could be FBXConverter. All I know, is that the model's triangles are disconnected once I have it in Cheetah3D" | :::"Its hard to say where the problem is, it could be Cheetah3D or it could be FBXConverter. All I know, is that the model's triangles are disconnected once I have it in Cheetah3D" | ||
::and | ::and | ||
:::"Hmm, I guess Blender's exported DAE might have had a problem that Cheetah only noticed upon exporting; that almost sounds more like a Cheetah problem, though. Maybe it's both program's faults, technically." | :::"Hmm, I guess Blender's exported DAE might have had a problem that Cheetah only noticed upon exporting; that almost sounds more like a Cheetah problem, though. Maybe it's both program's faults, technically." | ||
:: | ::is just not good for you. | ||
:::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::geyser, geyser, geyser. Although I didn't strictly label it as such, this was really going to be a discussion between Ed and myself (see ''my'' bold italics). The reason I didn't send you the files I was working with was so that I could focus on problem-solving. So when I used terms like "geyser's earlier copy", Ed knew exactly what I meant, because this dialogue was picking up from PMs we were exchanging. Now you've come in here telling us how to talk about stuff, and the page is all gummed up. I'm the one who should be "meta-sighing" here. I have little time for these games, as this is my last week on the Net for the next month, I barely have any time this week at all, and *all* I want to know is how to get my own models into Oni. Your comments so far are largely distracting from our efforts. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ::::geyser, geyser, geyser. Although I didn't strictly label it as such, this was really going to be a discussion between Ed and myself (see ''my'' bold italics). The reason I didn't send you the files I was working with was so that I could focus on problem-solving. So when I used terms like "geyser's earlier copy", Ed knew exactly what I meant, because this dialogue was picking up from PMs we were exchanging. Now you've come in here telling us how to talk about stuff, and the page is all gummed up. I'm the one who should be "meta-sighing" here. I have little time for these games, as this is my last week on the Net for the next month, I barely have any time this week at all, and *all* I want to know is how to get my own models into Oni. Your comments so far are largely distracting from our efforts. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::::This discussion is a public follow-up to your PM exchange, and if you mean to lay a solid groundwork for it, no detail is superfluous ''even'' if you're only talking to Ed. Precision is what enables expert troubleshooting and saves everybody's precious time. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | |||
Where do I start? :-) | Where do I start? :-) | ||
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:::::Actually, everything but Griffin's head is untouched ''and 100% correct'', so you can work with Iritscen's file, without pasting the head elsewhere. [[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::::Actually, everything but Griffin's head is untouched ''and 100% correct'', so you can work with Iritscen's file, without pasting the head elsewhere. [[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::::geyser... you're looking at Ed's fixed version, aren't you? I refused to link to mine because it was so messed up. If the copy you're looking at has correct part names, then ''it's not the copy I was working with''. It would be a waste of time to examine that model and fix every problem when Neo has already fixed the export bugs and newly-made exports are fine. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ::::::geyser... you're looking at Ed's fixed version, aren't you? I refused to link to mine because it was so messed up. If the copy you're looking at has correct part names, then ''it's not the copy I was working with''. It would be a waste of time to examine that model and fix every problem when Neo has already fixed the export bugs and newly-made exports are fine. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::::::No, I'm looking at [http://www.sendspace.com/file/rl6zre THIS] one. As far as I can tell it's the exact same "flawed" version as you gave to Ed, and apart from the head name/hierarchy/placement (and the head mesh per se) there's nothing wrong with that model. Oh, and I still don't like how you blame OniSplit (version number?) for abstract bugs. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | |||
:Make the changes. | :Make the changes. | ||
:Export from Blender, Collada 1.4, options: triangles, disable physics, current scene. (I'm doing this from memory, I do not have access to Blender at work. will correct if necessary) | :Export from Blender, Collada 1.4, options: triangles, disable physics, current scene. (I'm doing this from memory, I do not have access to Blender at work. will correct if necessary) | ||
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:Each body part has a center point, when exporting from Oni as Collada, these center points are at the correct location. However, if new parts are added, then the center point must be set. To set the center point, position the cursor at the correct location on the body part, you will need to adjust it on all 3 axis. Then go to the menu Object: Transform: Set to cursor. (from memory) | :Each body part has a center point, when exporting from Oni as Collada, these center points are at the correct location. However, if new parts are added, then the center point must be set. To set the center point, position the cursor at the correct location on the body part, you will need to adjust it on all 3 axis. Then go to the menu Object: Transform: Set to cursor. (from memory) | ||
:When replacing a body part, its important that its rotation matches the original part. Also, the name must be exactly as the one replaced. Finally, the parent/child relationship must be re-established. | :When replacing a body part, its important that its rotation matches the original part. Also, the name must be exactly as the one replaced. Finally, the parent/child relationship must be re-established. | ||
::The notion of rotation matching is a bit fuzzy here, there, and everywhere. You're not making it clear what to do about rotations that don't match. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ::''The notion of rotation matching is a bit fuzzy here, there, and everywhere. You're not making it clear what to do about rotations that don't match. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
What went wrong with Griffin? | What went wrong with Griffin? | ||
:It appears there is an additional object connected to the new head, which needs to be deleted. The new head needs to be named correctly, it needs to be attached to the neck (parent/child). Finally the scale/rotation needs to match the previous head. | :It appears there is an additional object connected to the new head, which needs to be deleted. The new head needs to be named correctly, it needs to be attached to the neck (parent/child). Finally the scale/rotation needs to match the previous head. | ||
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:::The scaling is fine. As for the rotation, the head is supposed to be aligned with the neck. So the only things that need to be done (apart from deleting the garbage object) are as follows: rename to "head"; reparent to "neck"; move/rotate into place; set center from cursor; "Object|Clear/Apply|Apply Scale/Rotation to ObData". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::The scaling is fine. As for the rotation, the head is supposed to be aligned with the neck. So the only things that need to be done (apart from deleting the garbage object) are as follows: rename to "head"; reparent to "neck"; move/rotate into place; set center from cursor; "Object|Clear/Apply|Apply Scale/Rotation to ObData". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::See, this is genuinely helpful. Thank you. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ::::See, this is genuinely helpful. Thank you. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::::My pleasure, but it's ''not'' helpful until you acknowledge that it actually fixes the Griffin you've been working with, in-place. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | |||
:Perhaps, since I was working with the .dae version, and not the original Blender file, I was not able to export to Collada, it kept failing on me. Not sure why... | :Perhaps, since I was working with the .dae version, and not the original Blender file, I was not able to export to Collada, it kept failing on me. Not sure why... | ||
::Afraid you lost me here. DAE *is* Collada, but you said you couldn't export it to Collada.... --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ::Afraid you lost me here. DAE *is* Collada, but you said you couldn't export it to Collada.... --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
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:::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::::::I have yet to try to import my exported .dae back into Blender and export it again, so I can't say yet if it will work for me. But I will follow geyser's advice about exporting from now on. The point about selecting all body parts and only exporting the selection, in particular, may be key to avoiding future problems. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ::::::::I have yet to try to import my exported .dae back into Blender and export it again, so I can't say yet if it will work for me. But I will follow geyser's advice about exporting from now on. The point about selecting all body parts and only exporting the selection, in particular, may be key to avoiding future problems. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::::::::Well, DAEs exported with scene metadata are annoying more than anything else. It will justs end up as nested scenes when and if you import and reexport the DAE again, but it doesn't screw up the model in any way. For one thing, [http://www.sendspace.com/file/rl6zre THIS] includes scene data and I can work with it just fine. | |||
:::::::::Please note your misunderstanding of Ed's DAE->DAE problem as an example of a situation where early disambiguation wouldn't have hurt. Just because you and Ed have been talking about Blender and HD Griffin in private doesn't make you able to read each other's minds. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | |||
:What did I do? I used Cheetah3D. I exported ONCCgriffin_generic as Collada, used FBXConverter to convert the file to .fbx. I also converted your new model to .fbx. I then copied the new griffin head to the griffin_generic fbx file, replaced the original head, set the correct rotation and parent/child relationship. Exported it out as .fbx, converted it to .dae using FBXConverter, then imported into Oni. Also, regarding the triangles not being connected in my model, I did not Optimize the model in Cheetah3D before exporting. | :What did I do? I used Cheetah3D. I exported ONCCgriffin_generic as Collada, used FBXConverter to convert the file to .fbx. I also converted your new model to .fbx. I then copied the new griffin head to the griffin_generic fbx file, replaced the original head, set the correct rotation and parent/child relationship. Exported it out as .fbx, converted it to .dae using FBXConverter, then imported into Oni. Also, regarding the triangles not being connected in my model, I did not Optimize the model in Cheetah3D before exporting. | ||
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:::'''only to get his new head on the old body that was un-importable''' Er? I'm confused again: what old body are we talking about, how was it un-importable, and how does this all fit in with you eventually combining that supposedly un-importable body with the new head? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::'''only to get his new head on the old body that was un-importable''' Er? I'm confused again: what old body are we talking about, how was it un-importable, and how does this all fit in with you eventually combining that supposedly un-importable body with the new head? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::Just to explain this once and for all: I exported Griffin. Months ago. OniSplit was still buggy in the area of exporting at the time. Stuff was messed up in the model, but that would only become known later. It wasn't anything that I could notice while working on it. Eventually I realized, from seeing Ed's bug reports on Neo's talk page, that my model was going to be trouble. So, last week, I used OniSplit 0.9.14 to export Griffin, and appended my old file with the HD head onto the imported new export. I deleted the head in the new export and put the HD head into place (but forgot to parent it). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ::::Just to explain this once and for all: I exported Griffin. Months ago. OniSplit was still buggy in the area of exporting at the time. Stuff was messed up in the model, but that would only become known later. It wasn't anything that I could notice while working on it. Eventually I realized, from seeing Ed's bug reports on Neo's talk page, that my model was going to be trouble. So, last week, I used OniSplit 0.9.14 to export Griffin, and appended my old file with the HD head onto the imported new export. I deleted the head in the new export and put the HD head into place (but forgot to parent it). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::::That explains a lot, but the information is still incomplete without the version number of the OniSplit you used "months ago" and the way in which "stuff was messed up". Are we even talking about COLLADA? Didn't you start working on a Griffin imported from OBJ, before OniSplit even started supporting COLLADA? It may look like a detail to you, but it's very important that you remember. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | |||
:'''What went wrong with Griffin?''' If that's of any help, you can let ''me'' (or Neo) try and import him ''any time at all''. When in trouble, there's nothing wrong with asking those familiar with OniSplit and/or the COLLADA format to have a look. What kind of masochist are you? If you're scared of me, try and "use" Neo. He may not help you all the way out, but he won't bite, that's for sure. | :'''What went wrong with Griffin?''' If that's of any help, you can let ''me'' (or Neo) try and import him ''any time at all''. When in trouble, there's nothing wrong with asking those familiar with OniSplit and/or the COLLADA format to have a look. What kind of masochist are you? If you're scared of me, try and "use" Neo. He may not help you all the way out, but he won't bite, that's for sure. | ||
:: *shrug* Ed just seemed to be the person to ask. We're using the same programs, and he had clear experience in importing models already. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | :: *shrug* Ed just seemed to be the person to ask. We're using the same programs, and he had clear experience in importing models already. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
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::::--[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ::::--[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::::You probably get this by now, but the model that's "100% consistent" with a new export *is* a new export (except the HD head). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::::You probably get this by now, but the model that's "100% consistent" with a new export *is* a new export (except the HD head). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::::Yes, but (see above) this still isn't telling me whatever was wrong with the old export: "wrong part names, for one thing, but probably more"... "probably"? Just what kind of suspectedly extensive problems were those. Please cope with my curiosity. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | |||
::geyser, sorry my terminology is not correct. What I called "center point" is the point where the body part will rotate around. I used "Rotation" as the orientation of the body part in 3D space. When the rotation for all the body parts is 0 for x,y,z, then the pose of the model is the default orientation. But since the pose in Blender is a standing pose, the rotation of the body parts is not 0,0,0. So if you replaced the head, with one that had a different rotation (even though it looked the same), the head will appear wrong in Oni. | ::geyser, sorry my terminology is not correct. What I called "center point" is the point where the body part will rotate around. I used "Rotation" as the orientation of the body part in 3D space. When the rotation for all the body parts is 0 for x,y,z, then the pose of the model is the default orientation. But since the pose in Blender is a standing pose, the rotation of the body parts is not 0,0,0. So if you replaced the head, with one that had a different rotation (even though it looked the same), the head will appear wrong in Oni. | ||
:::That's where the catch is, Ed: are you sure you understand how it is possible that 2 heads have "different rotations" even though they "look the same"? And in what sense is the rotation of the body parts not 0,0,0 for a standing pose? Think "local reference". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::''That's where the catch is, Ed: are you sure you understand how it is possible that 2 heads have "different rotations" even though they "look the same"? And in what sense is the rotation of the body parts not 0,0,0 for a standing pose? Think "local reference". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::Blender designers do a great job at confusing people, in the way only global orientations can be seen and edited, but it's the ''local reference'' of each body part that matters, and the ''local'' orientations of most body parts (e.g., the head) are 0,0,0. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::''Blender designers do a great job at confusing people, in the way only global orientations can be seen and edited, but it's the ''local reference'' of each body part that matters, and the ''local'' orientations of most body parts (e.g., the head) are 0,0,0. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::Here's the link to Iritscen's Griffin: http://www.sendspace.com/file/rl6zre Also, you can find my version of Griffin here: http://drop.io/EdT_OniFIles | ::Here's the link to Iritscen's Griffin: http://www.sendspace.com/file/rl6zre Also, you can find my version of Griffin here: http://drop.io/EdT_OniFIles | ||
::[[User:EdT|EdT]] 20:51, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ::[[User:EdT|EdT]] 20:51, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::Thanks, Ed. Your TRBS is OK, I guess (as for the head mesh, that's a completely different story). The problematic .dae has been an opportunity to check out just what tool Iritscen is "forced" to work with. I'm definitely appalled at how much Blender sucks, from the confusing/confused design/philosophy to the online manual. In particular when it comes to coordinate systems and transformations, it's ''unspeakably'' clumsy. Of course, there are some decent workarounds (see 5-step instructions for fixing Griffin's head above), but that doesn't cover every real-world situation, and every such "exception" will be a little big nightmare. Maybe for HD modding or bastardizing the workflow won't be ''too'' lousy, but it will never ''soar'', that much is certain. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::''Thanks, Ed. Your TRBS is OK, I guess (as for the head mesh, that's a completely different story). The problematic .dae has been an opportunity to check out just what tool Iritscen is "forced" to work with. I'm definitely appalled at how much Blender sucks, from the confusing/confused design/philosophy to the online manual. In particular when it comes to coordinate systems and transformations, it's ''unspeakably'' clumsy. Of course, there are some decent workarounds (see 5-step instructions for fixing Griffin's head above), but that doesn't cover every real-world situation, and every such "exception" will be a little big nightmare. Maybe for HD modding or bastardizing the workflow won't be ''too'' lousy, but it will never ''soar'', that much is certain. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::Yes, the design is crappy (but don't tell them that, they have blinders on and can't see the appalling stupidity of things like no copy/paste command). Yes, the wiki-manual is crappy. But I think that we are actually close to a perfectly serviceable workflow. I used AETools this morning to export Griffin from the .oni file that Ed has up on his drop.io page, and it looks correct in Blender. I still have to test what happens when I edit the file (thus saving it in the .blend format), then export it to .dae from Blender, then import it into a .oni using AETools. It may very well work. Don't nay-say so much, geyser. Griffin in specific has had issues that will not ever come up again in the future. I still have to discuss him here because I need to fix the model for further work going forward, but our discussion here about workflow is somewhat a separate topic because it assumes that the OniSplit export is not buggy, etc. That's okay, because the OS export isn't buggy | ::::Yes, the design is crappy (but don't tell them that, they have blinders on and can't see the appalling stupidity of things like no copy/paste command). Yes, the wiki-manual is crappy. But I think that we are actually close to a perfectly serviceable workflow. I used AETools this morning to export Griffin from the .oni file that Ed has up on his drop.io page, and it looks correct in Blender. I still have to test what happens when I edit the file (thus saving it in the .blend format), then export it to .dae from Blender, then import it into a .oni using AETools. It may very well work. Don't nay-say so much, geyser. Griffin in specific has had issues that will not ever come up again in the future. I still have to discuss him here because I need to fix the model for further work going forward, but our discussion here about workflow is somewhat a separate topic because it assumes that the OniSplit export is not buggy, etc. That's okay, because the OS export isn't buggy anymore. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::::Blender is irredeemable beyond any complaint to developers. But I'll help you out if you choose to stick with it. | |||
:::::Calling OniSplit export buggy without a proper bug report or even a version number... Final credibility warning. | |||
:::::'''I need to fix the model for further work going forward''' "Yes you do... perhaps more than you know..." (C)Kerr | |||
::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:31, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | |||
::P.S. to geyser: I did offer these files to you by saying you could ask Ed for them... so, you can't accuse me of withholding them from you since I only just made them available to anyone at all, and you were included in that offer. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ::P.S. to geyser: I did offer these files to you by saying you could ask Ed for them... so, you can't accuse me of withholding them from you since I only just made them available to anyone at all, and you were included in that offer. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::I wasn't accusing anyone of anything right there, but you have to admit that "oh, just go and ask Ed if you really wanna have a look at it, but I really wouldn't bother if I were you" is not the same as "here it is". Also, it's not just about "offering" stuff to ''me''; this is typically the case where I'd address ''Neo'' directly, at the first sign of trouble... "if I were you". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::I wasn't accusing anyone of anything right there, but you have to admit that "oh, just go and ask Ed if you really wanna have a look at it, but I really wouldn't bother if I were you" is not the same as "here it is". Also, it's not just about "offering" stuff to ''me''; this is typically the case where I'd address ''Neo'' directly, at the first sign of trouble... "if I were you". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||