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User talk:Iritscen: Difference between revisions
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==Importing from Blender== | ==Importing from Blender== | ||
This is the place where EdT tells me what was wrong with that Griffin model I gave him. :-) What did you have to do to get it imported? (I know you already told me some of this, but let's state it here to lay the groundwork for the discussion.) | '''''This is the place where EdT tells me what was wrong with that Griffin model I gave him.''''' :-) What did you have to do to get it imported? (I know you already told me some of this, but let's state it here to lay the groundwork for the discussion.) | ||
:--[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:59, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | :--[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 15:59, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
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::(also marked in '''''bold italics''''') is just not good for you. | ::(also marked in '''''bold italics''''') is just not good for you. | ||
:::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::geyser, geyser, geyser. Although I didn't strictly label it as such, this was really going to be a discussion between Ed and myself (see ''my'' bold italics). The reason I didn't send you the files I was working with was so that I could focus on problem-solving. So when I used terms like "geyser's earlier copy", Ed knew exactly what I meant, because this dialogue was picking up from PMs we were exchanging. Now you've come in here telling us how to talk about stuff, and the page is all gummed up. I'm the one who should be "meta-sighing" here. I have little time for these games, as this is my last week on the Net for the next month, I barely have any time this week at all, and *all* I want to know is how to get my own models into Oni. Your comments so far are largely distracting from our efforts. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | |||
Where do I start? :-) | Where do I start? :-) | ||
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:::::Yes, so I just copied the head from your files and pasted into my original one. Also, the head's center point was off, so I had to correct it. [[User:EdT|EdT]] | :::::Yes, so I just copied the head from your files and pasted into my original one. Also, the head's center point was off, so I had to correct it. [[User:EdT|EdT]] | ||
:::::Actually, everything but Griffin's head is untouched ''and 100% correct'', so you can work with Iritscen's file, without pasting the head elsewhere. [[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::::Actually, everything but Griffin's head is untouched ''and 100% correct'', so you can work with Iritscen's file, without pasting the head elsewhere. [[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::::geyser... you're looking at Ed's fixed version, aren't you? I refused to link to mine because it was so messed up. If the copy you're looking at has correct part names, then ''it's not the copy I was working with''. It would be a waste of time to examine that model and fix every problem when Neo has already fixed the export bugs and newly-made exports are fine. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | |||
:Make the changes. | :Make the changes. | ||
:Export from Blender, Collada 1.4, options: triangles, disable physics, current scene. (I'm doing this from memory, I do not have access to Blender at work. will correct if necessary) | :Export from Blender, Collada 1.4, options: triangles, disable physics, current scene. (I'm doing this from memory, I do not have access to Blender at work. will correct if necessary) | ||
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:Each body part has a center point, when exporting from Oni as Collada, these center points are at the correct location. However, if new parts are added, then the center point must be set. To set the center point, position the cursor at the correct location on the body part, you will need to adjust it on all 3 axis. Then go to the menu Object: Transform: Set to cursor. (from memory) | :Each body part has a center point, when exporting from Oni as Collada, these center points are at the correct location. However, if new parts are added, then the center point must be set. To set the center point, position the cursor at the correct location on the body part, you will need to adjust it on all 3 axis. Then go to the menu Object: Transform: Set to cursor. (from memory) | ||
:When replacing a body part, its important that its rotation matches the original part. Also, the name must be exactly as the one replaced. Finally, the parent/child relationship must be re-established. | :When replacing a body part, its important that its rotation matches the original part. Also, the name must be exactly as the one replaced. Finally, the parent/child relationship must be re-established. | ||
:: | ::The notion of rotation matching is a bit fuzzy here, there, and everywhere. You're not making it clear what to do about rotations that don't match. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
What went wrong with Griffin? | What went wrong with Griffin? | ||
:It appears there is an additional object connected to the new head, which needs to be deleted. The new head needs to be named correctly, it needs to be attached to the neck (parent/child). Finally the scale/rotation needs to match the previous head. | :It appears there is an additional object connected to the new head, which needs to be deleted. The new head needs to be named correctly, it needs to be attached to the neck (parent/child). Finally the scale/rotation needs to match the previous head. | ||
::I did in fact forget to establish a link to the new head (I realized after I had sent it to you). I will have to examine the issue of scale/rotation to make sure it is set properly in Griffin, I don't know that part of the program yet. I can probably figure that out. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ::I did in fact forget to establish a link to the new head (I realized after I had sent it to you). I will have to examine the issue of scale/rotation to make sure it is set properly in Griffin, I don't know that part of the program yet. I can probably figure that out. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::The scaling is fine. As for the rotation, the head is supposed to be aligned with the neck. So the only things that need to be done (apart from deleting the garbage object) are as follows: rename to "head"; reparent to "neck"; move/rotate into place; set center from cursor; "Object|Clear/Apply|Apply Scale/Rotation to ObData". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::The scaling is fine. As for the rotation, the head is supposed to be aligned with the neck. So the only things that need to be done (apart from deleting the garbage object) are as follows: rename to "head"; reparent to "neck"; move/rotate into place; set center from cursor; "Object|Clear/Apply|Apply Scale/Rotation to ObData". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::See, this is genuinely helpful. Thank you. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | |||
:Perhaps, since I was working with the .dae version, and not the original Blender file, I was not able to export to Collada, it kept failing on me. Not sure why... | :Perhaps, since I was working with the .dae version, and not the original Blender file, I was not able to export to Collada, it kept failing on me. Not sure why... | ||
::Afraid you lost me here. DAE *is* Collada, but you said you couldn't export it to Collada.... --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ::Afraid you lost me here. DAE *is* Collada, but you said you couldn't export it to Collada.... --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::All I know is that after importing your .dae file, I could not export it out as .dae. [[User:EdT|EdT]] | :::All I know is that after importing your .dae file, I could not export it out as .dae. [[User:EdT|EdT]] | ||
:::: | ::::Hmm, I guess Blender's exported DAE might have had a problem that Cheetah only noticed upon exporting; that almost sounds more like a Cheetah problem, though. Maybe it's both program's faults, technically. Well, in the future I will send you the .blend file if I need help, but hopefully I can make my own imports from now on. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 22:06, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::::Actually, the exporting error came from Blender itself, you can try it yourself. Import the .dae file you sent me into Blender, now try to export that file as Collada. [[User:EdT|EdT]] | :::::Actually, the exporting error came from Blender itself, you can try it yourself. Import the .dae file you sent me into Blender, now try to export that file as Collada. [[User:EdT|EdT]] | ||
::::::Just to clear things up: Iritscen, Ed's DAE->DAE problem has ''nothing'' to do with Cheetah3D. He's just importing your .dae into Blender and trying to export it as .dae from Blender afterwards. I'm not sure why he's having trouble doing so, because for me that same operation works fine. | ::::::Just to clear things up: Iritscen, Ed's DAE->DAE problem has ''nothing'' to do with Cheetah3D. He's just importing your .dae into Blender and trying to export it as .dae from Blender afterwards. I'm not sure why he's having trouble doing so, because for me that same operation works fine. | ||
::::::Still, I'd have a piece of advice as for exporting COLLADA from Blender: disable physics, use ''relative'' texture paths, ''and'' export selection only (select all body parts before exporting). The latter is to avoid accumulating layers of irrelevant and confusing metadata in the COLLADA file format. | ::::::Still, I'd have a piece of advice as for exporting COLLADA from Blender: disable physics, use ''relative'' texture paths, ''and'' export selection only (select all body parts before exporting). The latter is to avoid accumulating layers of irrelevant and confusing metadata in the COLLADA file format. | ||
:::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::::::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::::::I have yet to try to import my exported .dae back into Blender and export it again, so I can't say yet if it will work for me. But I will follow geyser's advice about exporting from now on. The point about selecting all body parts and only exporting the selection, in particular, may be key to avoiding future problems. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | |||
:What did I do? I used Cheetah3D. I exported ONCCgriffin_generic as Collada, used FBXConverter to convert the file to .fbx. I also converted your new model to .fbx. I then copied the new griffin head to the griffin_generic fbx file, replaced the original head, set the correct rotation and parent/child relationship. Exported it out as .fbx, converted it to .dae using FBXConverter, then imported into Oni. Also, regarding the triangles not being connected in my model, I did not Optimize the model in Cheetah3D before exporting. | :What did I do? I used Cheetah3D. I exported ONCCgriffin_generic as Collada, used FBXConverter to convert the file to .fbx. I also converted your new model to .fbx. I then copied the new griffin head to the griffin_generic fbx file, replaced the original head, set the correct rotation and parent/child relationship. Exported it out as .fbx, converted it to .dae using FBXConverter, then imported into Oni. Also, regarding the triangles not being connected in my model, I did not Optimize the model in Cheetah3D before exporting. | ||
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::When you say you did not optimize the model... was that supposed to connect the triangles? Does Cheetah otherwise disconnect the triangles? That would be very odd. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ::When you say you did not optimize the model... was that supposed to connect the triangles? Does Cheetah otherwise disconnect the triangles? That would be very odd. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::Optimize in Cheetah3D connects the triangles, and a couple of others things, I don't remember right now. [[User:EdT|EdT]] | :::Optimize in Cheetah3D connects the triangles, and a couple of others things, I don't remember right now. [[User:EdT|EdT]] | ||
::::See, I just don't get that, because | ::::See, I just don't get that, because geyser's earlier copy had triangles connected. It concerns me that Cheetah would disconnect the triangles unless you specifically tell it not to. When you're working with the file in Cheetah, are the triangles already disconnected, or is that only happening when it exports? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 22:06, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::::What can I say? I didn't know there was a problem, until you pointed it out. | :::::What can I say? I didn't know there was a problem, until you pointed it out. Its hard to say where the problem is, it could be Cheetah3D or it could be FBXConverter. All I know, is that the model's triangles are disconnected once I have it in Cheetah3D [[User:EdT|EdT]] | ||
::::::You could shed some light on this mystery by uploading the FBX file output by FBXConverter. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ::::::You could shed some light on this mystery by uploading the FBX file output by FBXConverter. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::::Yes, EdT, this may be helpful. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | |||
:'''it's important that its rotation matches the original part''' Conceptually, this has to do with the "center point": you have to define not only a position for it, but also a rotation, and thinking of it as a "point" can be misleading. I have no idea how Blender handles this exactly, but I'd be surprised if it was working with ill-defined frames of reference. Therefore the "center point" mentioned by Ed ''must'' have an adjustable orientation property. | :'''it's important that its rotation matches the original part''' Conceptually, this has to do with the "center point": you have to define not only a position for it, but also a rotation, and thinking of it as a "point" can be misleading. I have no idea how Blender handles this exactly, but I'd be surprised if it was working with ill-defined frames of reference. Therefore the "center point" mentioned by Ed ''must'' have an adjustable orientation property. | ||
::Hmm, not sure I get this, but do I need to get it? As long as I alter polys and don't add new parts (which, yes, I did do for Griffin, but only to get his new head on the old body that was un-importable), do I need to worry about center points and rotations? As long as I don't change either of those? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ::Hmm, not sure I get this, but do I need to get it? As long as I alter polys and don't add new parts (which, yes, I did do for Griffin, but only to get his new head on the old body that was un-importable), do I need to worry about center points and rotations? As long as I don't change either of those? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
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:::'''do I need to get it?''' That's entirely up to you. Stuff like "bastardizing" can indeed be done without "worrying about center points and rotations". But without a solid notion of the "reference frames" (a.k.a. "systems of coordinates") involved, a major screw-up is only a matter of time. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::'''do I need to get it?''' That's entirely up to you. Stuff like "bastardizing" can indeed be done without "worrying about center points and rotations". But without a solid notion of the "reference frames" (a.k.a. "systems of coordinates") involved, a major screw-up is only a matter of time. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::'''only to get his new head on the old body that was un-importable''' Er? I'm confused again: what old body are we talking about, how was it un-importable, and how does this all fit in with you eventually combining that supposedly un-importable body with the new head? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::'''only to get his new head on the old body that was un-importable''' Er? I'm confused again: what old body are we talking about, how was it un-importable, and how does this all fit in with you eventually combining that supposedly un-importable body with the new head? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::Just to explain this once and for all: I exported Griffin. Months ago. OniSplit was still buggy in the area of exporting at the time. Stuff was messed up in the model, but that would only become known later. It wasn't anything that I could notice while working on it. Eventually I realized, from seeing Ed's bug reports on Neo's talk page, that my model was going to be trouble. So, last week, I used OniSplit 0.9.14 to export Griffin, and appended my old file with the HD head onto the imported new export. I deleted the head in the new export and put the HD head into place (but forgot to parent it). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | |||
:'''What went wrong with Griffin?''' If that's of any help, you can let ''me'' (or Neo) try and import him ''any time at all''. When in trouble, there's nothing wrong with asking those familiar with OniSplit and/or the COLLADA format to have a look. What kind of masochist are you? If you're scared of me, try and "use" Neo. He may not help you all the way out, but he won't bite, that's for sure. | :'''What went wrong with Griffin?''' If that's of any help, you can let ''me'' (or Neo) try and import him ''any time at all''. When in trouble, there's nothing wrong with asking those familiar with OniSplit and/or the COLLADA format to have a look. What kind of masochist are you? If you're scared of me, try and "use" Neo. He may not help you all the way out, but he won't bite, that's for sure. | ||
:: *shrug* Ed just seemed to be the person to ask. We're using the same programs, and he had clear experience in importing models already. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | :: *shrug* Ed just seemed to be the person to ask. We're using the same programs, and he had clear experience in importing models already. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
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:::Either way, in the future it'll be great if you don't casually attribute non-existing "issues" to OniSplit as if that was a fact. We have respect for user error; in return, please ''at least'' give the benefit of the doubt to the tools at your disposal (it's about ''your credibility'', not about offense). | :::Either way, in the future it'll be great if you don't casually attribute non-existing "issues" to OniSplit as if that was a fact. We have respect for user error; in return, please ''at least'' give the benefit of the doubt to the tools at your disposal (it's about ''your credibility'', not about offense). | ||
::::--[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ::::--[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::::You probably get this by now, but the model that's "100% consistent" with a new export *is* a new export (except the HD head). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | |||
::geyser, sorry my terminology is not correct. What I called "center point" is the point where the body part will rotate around. I used "Rotation" as the orientation of the body part in 3D space. When the rotation for all the body parts is 0 for x,y,z, then the pose of the model is the default orientation. But since the pose in Blender is a standing pose, the rotation of the body parts is not 0,0,0. So if you replaced the head, with one that had a different rotation (even though it looked the same), the head will appear wrong in Oni. | ::geyser, sorry my terminology is not correct. What I called "center point" is the point where the body part will rotate around. I used "Rotation" as the orientation of the body part in 3D space. When the rotation for all the body parts is 0 for x,y,z, then the pose of the model is the default orientation. But since the pose in Blender is a standing pose, the rotation of the body parts is not 0,0,0. So if you replaced the head, with one that had a different rotation (even though it looked the same), the head will appear wrong in Oni. | ||
::: | :::That's where the catch is, Ed: are you sure you understand how it is possible that 2 heads have "different rotations" even though they "look the same"? And in what sense is the rotation of the body parts not 0,0,0 for a standing pose? Think "local reference". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::: | :::Blender designers do a great job at confusing people, in the way only global orientations can be seen and edited, but it's the ''local reference'' of each body part that matters, and the ''local'' orientations of most body parts (e.g., the head) are 0,0,0. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
::Here's the link to Iritscen's Griffin: http://www.sendspace.com/file/rl6zre Also, you can find my version of Griffin here: http://drop.io/EdT_OniFIles | ::Here's the link to Iritscen's Griffin: http://www.sendspace.com/file/rl6zre Also, you can find my version of Griffin here: http://drop.io/EdT_OniFIles | ||
::[[User:EdT|EdT]] 20:51, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ::[[User:EdT|EdT]] 20:51, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::Thanks, Ed. Your TRBS is OK, I guess (as for the head mesh, that's a completely different story). The problematic .dae has been an opportunity to check out just what tool Iritscen is "forced" to work with. I'm definitely appalled at how much Blender sucks, from the confusing/confused design/philosophy to the online manual. In particular when it comes to coordinate systems and transformations, it's ''unspeakably'' clumsy. Of course, there are some decent workarounds (see 5-step instructions for fixing Griffin's head above), but that doesn't cover every real-world situation, and every such "exception" will be a little big nightmare. Maybe for HD modding or bastardizing the workflow won't be ''too'' lousy, but it will never ''soar'', that much is certain. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | |||
::::Yes, the design is crappy (but don't tell them that, they have blinders on and can't see the appalling stupidity of things like no copy/paste command). Yes, the wiki-manual is crappy. But I think that we are actually close to a perfectly serviceable workflow. I used AETools this morning to export Griffin from the .oni file that Ed has up on his drop.io page, and it looks correct in Blender. I still have to test what happens when I edit the file (thus saving it in the .blend format), then export it to .dae from Blender, then import it into a .oni using AETools. It may very well work. Don't nay-say so much, geyser. Griffin in specific has had issues that will not ever come up again in the future. I still have to discuss him here because I need to fix the model for further work going forward, but our discussion here about workflow is somewhat a separate topic because it assumes that the OniSplit export is not buggy, etc. That's okay, because the OS export isn't buggy anymmore. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 16:02, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | |||
::P.S. to geyser: I did offer these files to you by saying you could ask Ed for them... so, you can't accuse me of withholding them from you since I only just made them available to anyone at all, and you were included in that offer. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ::P.S. to geyser: I did offer these files to you by saying you could ask Ed for them... so, you can't accuse me of withholding them from you since I only just made them available to anyone at all, and you were included in that offer. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:08, 2 June 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::I wasn't accusing anyone of anything right there, but you have to admit that "oh, just go and ask Ed if you really wanna have a look at it, but I really wouldn't bother if I were you" is not the same as "here it is". Also, it's not just about "offering" stuff to ''me''; this is typically the case where I'd address ''Neo'' directly, at the first sign of trouble... "if I were you". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | :::I wasn't accusing anyone of anything right there, but you have to admit that "oh, just go and ask Ed if you really wanna have a look at it, but I really wouldn't bother if I were you" is not the same as "here it is". Also, it's not just about "offering" stuff to ''me''; this is typically the case where I'd address ''Neo'' directly, at the first sign of trouble... "if I were you". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 07:01, 3 June 2008 (CEST) | ||