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Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions
Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events (view source)
Revision as of 11:05, 10 June 2020
, 10 June 2020→Wilderness Preserves: supergirl is a tamed form of poisonbush? how so? O_o
(→A few comments from 'Scen: daodandelion… shoot, why didn't I think of that?) |
(→Wilderness Preserves: supergirl is a tamed form of poisonbush? how so? O_o) |
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:::::I'm a big disliker of time-traveling in sci-fi (mainly because of how we're all sitting on a rock that's careening through space, so traveling forward in time even a split second would leave you in that rock's wake, gasping for air). If your "time travel" is actually akin to hibernation, then of course it works better. However, in that case, I'd say the Daodan doesn't need to be time-traveling either. The "Oldies" (or whatever you'd call them) would just pack daodandelion seeds into time capsules that say "Do not open until X-Mas 1999", and voilà. Phase veil? What for? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::I'm a big disliker of time-traveling in sci-fi (mainly because of how we're all sitting on a rock that's careening through space, so traveling forward in time even a split second would leave you in that rock's wake, gasping for air). If your "time travel" is actually akin to hibernation, then of course it works better. However, in that case, I'd say the Daodan doesn't need to be time-traveling either. The "Oldies" (or whatever you'd call them) would just pack daodandelion seeds into time capsules that say "Do not open until X-Mas 1999", and voilà. Phase veil? What for? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::I agree with the problematic aspects of time travel. Even if the spatial dislocation could be solved, there's that pesky matter of the causality paradoxes. That's why I prefer to have the twist be that there's no time travel involved. In this scenario, the Daodan is also in the present and is being transported from the bottom of the ocean to land by phase tech. Scientists may think they're retrieving stuff from another universe but they're really just connecting to the remnants of a civilization that buried itself in the ocean as its world collapsed. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::I agree with the problematic aspects of time travel. Even if the spatial dislocation could be solved, there's that pesky matter of the causality paradoxes. That's why I prefer to have the twist be that there's no time travel involved. In this scenario, the Daodan is also in the present and is being transported from the bottom of the ocean to land by phase tech. Scientists may think they're retrieving stuff from another universe but they're really just connecting to the remnants of a civilization that buried itself in the ocean as its world collapsed. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::Forward time travel (as in your case) doesn't have causality issues, and a number of sci-fi writers have gone that way (one-way time-travel only -- ever forward). Then again, we are already traveling "ever forward", albeit slowly, so fast-forward time-travel is really akin to "immaterial hibernation": jump into the Phase, freeze there, and then spring back. Alternatively, if there is a time-freezing "phase flavor", there may also be a time-accelerating one (jump into the Phase, hyperevolve there, and spring back -- as long as you survive the jumps, that can be convenient). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:05, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::If it were up to me, I wouldn't keep much of those "[https://3dbrute.com/homunculus-loxodontus/ Waiters]" or their human/Daodan proxies, except for the notion that the Phase is tied to "Gaia", i.e., that you can't do phase tech in outer space. It would explain why Oni's sci-fi-powered civilization isn't actively colonizing Mars or the Moon, and it would keep the plot "Earth-centered" in a [wp:Ring Around The Sun (novel)|Ring Around the Sun] kind of way. | |||
:::::The only problem then is, I'm no longer sure that it's still Oni that we're talking about and not some Mass Effect DLC (with timeless Leviathans at the bottom of oceans, or Reapers chilling in the darkness of space until it's "time to collect"). I know you're convinced that the dying Jamie (as dreamed up by Konoko) kinda looks like Barabas, but drawing a parallel between Jamie's complete cellular breakdown and Mai's or Muro's integrity-preserving symbiosis is a bit of a stretch even by my standards. You seem to imply that the "flowering shrub" is Daodan-enhanced (like Konoko? or in some other way that Oni says nothing about?), and Jamie, not having the same DNA signature as the shrub, is destroyed upon contact with its Chrysalis instead of being "reinforced or replaced". So how does this feed back into Oni? If Konoko spits in Griffin's face, does he rot alive in minutes? is that how it works? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::The only problem then is, I'm no longer sure that it's still Oni that we're talking about and not some Mass Effect DLC (with timeless Leviathans at the bottom of oceans, or Reapers chilling in the darkness of space until it's "time to collect"). I know you're convinced that the dying Jamie (as dreamed up by Konoko) kinda looks like Barabas, but drawing a parallel between Jamie's complete cellular breakdown and Mai's or Muro's integrity-preserving symbiosis is a bit of a stretch even by my standards. You seem to imply that the "flowering shrub" is Daodan-enhanced (like Konoko? or in some other way that Oni says nothing about?), and Jamie, not having the same DNA signature as the shrub, is destroyed upon contact with its Chrysalis instead of being "reinforced or replaced". So how does this feed back into Oni? If Konoko spits in Griffin's face, does he rot alive in minutes? is that how it works? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::Lot to respond to here, but I'll try to make it quick: | ::::::Lot to respond to here, but I'll try to make it quick: | ||
::::::*Any direction we go with Oni is likely to feel somewhat alien compared to the original. Any additions to the canon may feel like a departure; that would have been true of even Hardy's planned sequel. I think the key thing is to find a way to balance the introduction of biopunk with the original cyberpunk inspiration. This may be something done on the game design level rather than the story level. | ::::::*Any direction we go with Oni is likely to feel somewhat alien compared to the original. Any additions to the canon may feel like a departure; that would have been true of even Hardy's planned sequel. I think the key thing is to find a way to balance the introduction of biopunk with the original cyberpunk inspiration. This may be something done on the game design level rather than the story level. | ||
::::::*Not sure why you're comparing the effect a Daodan-infected plant had on Jamie with the way that the Chrysalis works. We both agree that Hasegawa invented the Chrysalis to tame the Daodan, don't we? The plant killed Jamie because it had some defense chemical in it, probably what would be considered a mild acidity to deter insects in a Daodan-infused super-wilderness. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::*Not sure why you're comparing the effect a Daodan-infected plant had on Jamie with the way that the Chrysalis works. We both agree that Hasegawa invented the Chrysalis to tame the Daodan, don't we? The plant killed Jamie because it had some defense chemical in it, probably what would be considered a mild acidity to deter insects in a Daodan-infused super-wilderness. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::::"We both agree that Hasegawa invented the Chrysalis to tame the Daodan, don't we?" -- Erm, no, where did you get that idea? ^_^ In my impression, Hasegawa & Kerr (and all the other Daodan scientists) are rather humble about the Chrysalis, and are quick to recognize that it is barely "tameable" itself (you can sedate it, you can put it in cryo, but other than that it's "bound to run free"). To me, Hasegawa merely discovered (perhaps accidentally) the right experimental conditions under which a Daodan can come in from the Phase, "exalt" a human cell, and "keep exalting it" by staying phase-tethered. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:05, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::You seem to be implying that the bush from the Zone is "wild"/untamed in the sense that it has defense mechanisms that are in-sync with its immediate surroundings, but out of proportion with ordinary Earth fauna/flora. In that view, you present the Chrysalis as a "tamed" counterpart of Zone fauna because Konoko doesn't have acid blood and doesn't spread deadly viruses with every footstep. However, apart from being poisonous, a Zone bush looks pretty much "tame" (ordinary-looking, not giant or deformed, no horns or alien glow, nothing paranormal happening nearby). So I am really not sure that Konoko's symbiosis is in any way limited/restrained as compared to that poisonous bush. If anything, they look to me like two completely different kinds of symbiosis, with two completely different origins/explanations, and to imply that one is a "tamed" form of the other is quite a departure indeed. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:05, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::::Not sure what you mean with the role of "game design" (2D/3D themes/assets? or gameplay choices?), but I'm trying very hard to keep additions and "departures" to a minimum. Biopunk, as far as I can tell, is already in Oni (it doesn't matter that it started as a GITS clone -- by 2001 it already had an identity of its one, with the original SLD and Daodan/Chrysalis concepts at its core). And the balance with cyberpunk is achieved quite naturally because you still have those huge machines for growing/monitoring all the biotech, the man-machine interface, sub-dermal chips and cables, cyborg parts, etc. As for the rest, I tend to list alternative takes intermixed with my preferences, so you may not always realize how little I'm actually adding. For one thing, I haven't had any need for Forerunners or Protheans so far. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:05, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::Mostly agree about the Wilderness Preserves being mostly overgrown -- not like a large dump can't be covered in greenery, mind you, or covered-up by limiting access to satellite imagery (Oni's space programs are not the same as NASA's and ESA's, so we don't know what satellites they had in orbit before the Uprising, and who was running them). At any rate, Hasegawa's tale is really telling us that "the world outside the ACCs is poisonous" so, at least in the one Zone that he and Jamie set foot into, the virus (or whatever) had apparently "gone to seed" in most of the Zone's lifeforms (that's if it wasn't in fact airborne, merely using Jamie's open wound as a way in). This is not telling us that the virus (or whatever) didn't spread from a man-made container discarded somewhere deep in the forest, or from a secret underground lab, or from an enigmatic phase portal (or xenoforming time capsule). Like I said earlier, Zones (Preserves) don't all have to look the same or kill their local Jamies in the same fashion. It's only your own Wilderness fixation that's giving you that idea. (For what it's worth, would Jamie's Zone cause "biological contamination" on a plane passing overhead, that would be immediately noticed and reported by pilots? I wouldn't be so sure.) --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::Mostly agree about the Wilderness Preserves being mostly overgrown -- not like a large dump can't be covered in greenery, mind you, or covered-up by limiting access to satellite imagery (Oni's space programs are not the same as NASA's and ESA's, so we don't know what satellites they had in orbit before the Uprising, and who was running them). At any rate, Hasegawa's tale is really telling us that "the world outside the ACCs is poisonous" so, at least in the one Zone that he and Jamie set foot into, the virus (or whatever) had apparently "gone to seed" in most of the Zone's lifeforms (that's if it wasn't in fact airborne, merely using Jamie's open wound as a way in). This is not telling us that the virus (or whatever) didn't spread from a man-made container discarded somewhere deep in the forest, or from a secret underground lab, or from an enigmatic phase portal (or xenoforming time capsule). Like I said earlier, Zones (Preserves) don't all have to look the same or kill their local Jamies in the same fashion. It's only your own Wilderness fixation that's giving you that idea. (For what it's worth, would Jamie's Zone cause "biological contamination" on a plane passing overhead, that would be immediately noticed and reported by pilots? I wouldn't be so sure.) --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::"would Jamie's Zone cause 'biological contamination' on a plane passing overhead?" In my conception, the Wilderness is emitting all kinds of stuff all the time, and there's not just flora down there, but fauna too. So there's any number of things that could cause biological contamination, including bugs that attached themselves to the fuselage, or splattered on it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::::"would Jamie's Zone cause 'biological contamination' on a plane passing overhead?" In my conception, the Wilderness is emitting all kinds of stuff all the time, and there's not just flora down there, but fauna too. So there's any number of things that could cause biological contamination, including bugs that attached themselves to the fuselage, or splattered on it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||