19,596
edits
Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions
Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events (view source)
Revision as of 01:23, 10 June 2020
, 10 June 2020→A few comments from 'Scen: daodandelion… shoot, why didn't I think of that?
(: whatevs) |
(→A few comments from 'Scen: daodandelion… shoot, why didn't I think of that?) |
||
| Line 40: | Line 40: | ||
:::My speculation, or rather my latest take on this, is that there may have been ordinary landfills and such in some of the Zones early on, but most of the pollution appeared (unnoticed at first?) after some Phase experiments (in the early years where Phase tech was poorly regulated and rather hazardous). Either secret labs (testing grounds) deep in the "jungle", or teleportations gone wrong, as described previously. That's close enough to SoW, actually, since (correct me if I'm wrong) the xenoforming invasion would have needed a transdimensional portal of some sort to have appeared in each of the Preserves at some point. My "guess" about how the teleported samples (waste bins, neo-Laikas or otherwise) may have been "alienated" during the teleport, resulting in "unearthly" contamination wherever the "boomerang" hit -- that's also close to SoW, wouldn't you say? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 00:25, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::My speculation, or rather my latest take on this, is that there may have been ordinary landfills and such in some of the Zones early on, but most of the pollution appeared (unnoticed at first?) after some Phase experiments (in the early years where Phase tech was poorly regulated and rather hazardous). Either secret labs (testing grounds) deep in the "jungle", or teleportations gone wrong, as described previously. That's close enough to SoW, actually, since (correct me if I'm wrong) the xenoforming invasion would have needed a transdimensional portal of some sort to have appeared in each of the Preserves at some point. My "guess" about how the teleported samples (waste bins, neo-Laikas or otherwise) may have been "alienated" during the teleport, resulting in "unearthly" contamination wherever the "boomerang" hit -- that's also close to SoW, wouldn't you say? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 00:25, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::Yes, that's a pretty accurate summation. I left my premise a bit open-ended. One possibility is that the area beyond the phase veil is another planet or universe (the idea that Hardy no doubt had in mind). But plot twists can come from additional revelations later on, such as "They're actually from right here on Earth, in the distant past." The final twist I suggested was that it turns out, last-minute as the full-on invasion is happening, that they're actually not even from the past… they're right here, under the oceans. The time stuff was either a feint or a (rare) errant assumption by Mai. The aliens are from the distant past but have been in suspended animation the entire time, and are using the portals to seed the land with their alien life. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 01:13, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::Yes, that's a pretty accurate summation. I left my premise a bit open-ended. One possibility is that the area beyond the phase veil is another planet or universe (the idea that Hardy no doubt had in mind). But plot twists can come from additional revelations later on, such as "They're actually from right here on Earth, in the distant past." The final twist I suggested was that it turns out, last-minute as the full-on invasion is happening, that they're actually not even from the past… they're right here, under the oceans. The time stuff was either a feint or a (rare) errant assumption by Mai. The aliens are from the distant past but have been in suspended animation the entire time, and are using the portals to seed the land with their alien life. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 01:13, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::The alien life, by the way, doesn't really need to be seeded carefully or secretly; being Daodan-powered, any xeno-dandelion seed that lands in a field could start the whole species growing. All that's needed is for humans not to notice for a while and it's too late. The WCG knows about the incursion, terming it a BioCrisis, blaming it on pollution, and using it as an excuse to establish world hegemony, but they can't watch everywhere at once. The areas that "go to seed" before WCG can catch them are cordoned off as Wilderness Preserves. (Note that the name makes a lot more sense if the Preserves aren't just a big wasteland with discarded industrial pollution in them, which would be obvious from satellite imagery. It really is a wilderness; the WCG just isn't saying ''whose'' Wilderness it is…) --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 01:13, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::The alien life, by the way, doesn't really need to be seeded carefully or secretly; being Daodan-powered, any xeno-dandelion seed that lands in a field could start the whole species growing. All that's needed is for humans not to notice for a while and it's too late. The WCG knows about the incursion, terming it a BioCrisis, blaming it on pollution, and using it as an excuse to establish world hegemony, but they can't watch everywhere at once. The areas that "go to seed" before WCG can catch them are cordoned off as Wilderness Preserves. (Note that the name makes a lot more sense if the Preserves aren't just a big wasteland with discarded industrial pollution in them, which would be obvious from satellite imagery. It really is a wilderness; the WCG just isn't saying ''whose'' Wilderness it is….) --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 01:13, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::For more on how the Wilderness has to spread in order to prepare the way for Earth's original masters to live on it again, see the second bullet point [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Polylectiloquy#What_would_Oni_2_be_about.3F|here]] and then [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Neo-Biology#Nature_and_origin|this part]] of my Neo-Biology page. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 01:13, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::For more on how the Wilderness has to spread in order to prepare the way for Earth's original masters to live on it again, see the second bullet point [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Polylectiloquy#What_would_Oni_2_be_about.3F|here]] and then [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Neo-Biology#Nature_and_origin|this part]] of my Neo-Biology page. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 01:13, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::I'm a big disliker of time-traveling in sci-fi (mainly because of how we're all sitting on a rock that's careening through space, so traveling forward in time even a split second would leave you in that rock's wake, gasping for air). If your "time travel" is actually akin to hibernation, then of course it works better. However, in that case, I'd say the Daodan doesn't need to be time-traveling either. The "Oldies" (or whatever you'd call them) would just pack daodandelion seeds into time capsules that say "Do not open until X-Mas 1999", and voilà. Phase veil? What for? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::I'm a big disliker of time-traveling in sci-fi (mainly because of how we're all sitting on a rock that's careening through space, so traveling forward in time even a split second would leave you in that rock's wake, gasping for air). If your "time travel" is actually akin to hibernation, then of course it works better. However, in that case, I'd say the Daodan doesn't need to be time-traveling either. The "Oldies" (or whatever you'd call them) would just pack daodandelion seeds into time capsules that say "Do not open until X-Mas 1999", and voilà. Phase veil? What for? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::I agree with the problematic aspects of time travel. Even if the spatial dislocation could be solved, there's that pesky matter of the causality paradoxes. That's why I prefer to have the twist be that there's no time travel involved. In this scenario, the Daodan is also in the present and is being transported from the bottom of the ocean to land by phase tech. Scientists may think they're retrieving stuff from another universe but they're really just connecting to the remnants of a civilization that buried itself in the ocean as its world collapsed. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::The only problem then is, I'm no longer sure that it's still Oni that we're talking about and not some Mass Effect DLC (with timeless Leviathans at the bottom of oceans, or Reapers chilling in the darkness of space until it's "time to collect"). I know you're convinced that the dying Jamie (as dreamed up by Konoko) kinda looks like Barabas, but drawing a parallel between Jamie's complete cellular breakdown and Mai's or Muro's integrity-preserving symbiosis is a bit of a stretch even by my standards. You seem to imply that the "flowering shrub" is Daodan-enhanced (like Konoko? or in some other way that Oni says nothing about?), and Jamie, not having the same DNA signature as the shrub, is destroyed upon contact with its Chrysalis instead of being "reinforced or replaced". So how does this feed back into Oni? If Konoko spits in Griffin's face, does he rot alive in minutes? is that how it works? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::The only problem then is, I'm no longer sure that it's still Oni that we're talking about and not some Mass Effect DLC (with timeless Leviathans at the bottom of oceans, or Reapers chilling in the darkness of space until it's "time to collect"). I know you're convinced that the dying Jamie (as dreamed up by Konoko) kinda looks like Barabas, but drawing a parallel between Jamie's complete cellular breakdown and Mai's or Muro's integrity-preserving symbiosis is a bit of a stretch even by my standards. You seem to imply that the "flowering shrub" is Daodan-enhanced (like Konoko? or in some other way that Oni says nothing about?), and Jamie, not having the same DNA signature as the shrub, is destroyed upon contact with its Chrysalis instead of being "reinforced or replaced". So how does this feed back into Oni? If Konoko spits in Griffin's face, does he rot alive in minutes? is that how it works? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::Lot to respond to here, but I'll try to make it quick: | |||
::::::*Any direction we go with Oni is likely to feel somewhat alien compared to the original. Any additions to the canon may feel like a departure; that would have been true of even Hardy's planned sequel. I think the key thing is to find a way to balance the introduction of biopunk with the original cyberpunk inspiration. This may be something done on the game design level rather than the story level. | |||
::::::*Not sure why you're comparing the effect a Daodan-infected plant had on Jamie with the way that the Chrysalis works. We both agree that Hasegawa invented the Chrysalis to tame the Daodan, don't we? The plant killed Jamie because it had some defense chemical in it, probably what would be considered a mild acidity to deter insects in a Daodan-infused super-wilderness. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::Mostly agree about the Wilderness Preserves being mostly overgrown -- not like a large dump can't be covered in greenery, mind you, or covered-up by limiting access to satellite imagery (Oni's space programs are not the same as NASA's and ESA's, so we don't know what satellites they had in orbit before the Uprising, and who was running them). At any rate, Hasegawa's tale is really telling us that "the world outside the ACCs is poisonous" so, at least in the one Zone that he and Jamie set foot into, the virus (or whatever) had apparently "gone to seed" in most of the Zone's lifeforms (that's if it wasn't in fact airborne, merely using Jamie's open wound as a way in). This is not telling us that the virus (or whatever) didn't spread from a man-made container discarded somewhere deep in the forest, or from a secret underground lab, or from an enigmatic phase portal (or xenoforming time capsule). Like I said earlier, Zones (Preserves) don't all have to look the same or kill their local Jamies in the same fashion. It's only your own Wilderness fixation that's giving you that idea. (For what it's worth, would Jamie's Zone cause "biological contamination" on a plane passing overhead, that would be immediately noticed and reported by pilots? I wouldn't be so sure.) --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::Mostly agree about the Wilderness Preserves being mostly overgrown -- not like a large dump can't be covered in greenery, mind you, or covered-up by limiting access to satellite imagery (Oni's space programs are not the same as NASA's and ESA's, so we don't know what satellites they had in orbit before the Uprising, and who was running them). At any rate, Hasegawa's tale is really telling us that "the world outside the ACCs is poisonous" so, at least in the one Zone that he and Jamie set foot into, the virus (or whatever) had apparently "gone to seed" in most of the Zone's lifeforms (that's if it wasn't in fact airborne, merely using Jamie's open wound as a way in). This is not telling us that the virus (or whatever) didn't spread from a man-made container discarded somewhere deep in the forest, or from a secret underground lab, or from an enigmatic phase portal (or xenoforming time capsule). Like I said earlier, Zones (Preserves) don't all have to look the same or kill their local Jamies in the same fashion. It's only your own Wilderness fixation that's giving you that idea. (For what it's worth, would Jamie's Zone cause "biological contamination" on a plane passing overhead, that would be immediately noticed and reported by pilots? I wouldn't be so sure.) --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::"would Jamie's Zone cause 'biological contamination' on a plane passing overhead?" In my conception, the Wilderness is emitting all kinds of stuff all the time, and there's not just flora down there, but fauna too. So there's any number of things that could cause biological contamination, including bugs that attached themselves to the fuselage, or splattered on it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::Last but not least, "alien invasions" (doesn't matter if they're space aliens or time aliens or phase aliens) is one of the big caveats of sci-fi for me, if not one of the big no-nos. No matter how unfathomable and unfamiliar you're trying to picture them, they always come across as sock puppets and man-made "golems" (poor copies of ourselves) from the moment they appear on screen. If they turn out to be "bad guys", then the tropes get even worse. I probably could name more than a few exceptions to that rule (good sci-fi with believable aliens, and even with a convincing enough "invasion" going on), but the point is, I'm picky as hell when it comes to those things. The Screamer Queen mentioned by Hardy(?) I would probably tolerate because she'd be all immaterial and hungry, and probably would just equate to (super)natural disaster. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::Last but not least, "alien invasions" (doesn't matter if they're space aliens or time aliens or phase aliens) is one of the big caveats of sci-fi for me, if not one of the big no-nos. No matter how unfathomable and unfamiliar you're trying to picture them, they always come across as sock puppets and man-made "golems" (poor copies of ourselves) from the moment they appear on screen. If they turn out to be "bad guys", then the tropes get even worse. I probably could name more than a few exceptions to that rule (good sci-fi with believable aliens, and even with a convincing enough "invasion" going on), but the point is, I'm picky as hell when it comes to those things. The Screamer Queen mentioned by Hardy(?) I would probably tolerate because she'd be all immaterial and hungry, and probably would just equate to (super)natural disaster. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::I somewhat agree about the dangers of depicting aliens. For how I planned to deal with that, see [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Story#Daomen|this section]], starting with the paragraph beginning "Whatever form". Short answer: barely show them, and use human agents as their proxy. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::::That said, I plead guilty myself -- I imagined an alien race a while back and had been thinking of ways of incorporating them into the Oni universe... as invaders. The Daodan, in that "story", would have been helping Mankind to prepare -- by hyperevolving -- so that they'd survive the encounter with the "actual" enemy all the way in Oni 3. From what I recall those "other aliens" were going to be powerful-but-stupid, kinda like furry zerglings. Good times... --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::That said, I plead guilty myself -- I imagined an alien race a while back and had been thinking of ways of incorporating them into the Oni universe... as invaders. The Daodan, in that "story", would have been helping Mankind to prepare -- by hyperevolving -- so that they'd survive the encounter with the "actual" enemy all the way in Oni 3. From what I recall those "other aliens" were going to be powerful-but-stupid, kinda like furry zerglings. Good times... --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
| Line 57: | Line 63: | ||
::::The ACCs might have been part of the means to power for the WCG. In this theory, the construction of the ACCs was part of what bankrupted the nations, paving the way for debt forgiveness through assimilation. Who's to say that the whole framing of the BioCrisis and promotion of the ACCs wasn't partly a deliberate plot by the WCG to rise to power? Of course they would have been called something else before they became the (not-quite-entire-)world government, but the proto-WCG could still have been the ones to design the ACCs, explaining their uniformity (of course, it's our assumption that they're uniform). This makes the timing of events much more comfortable than imagining the enormous ACCs being built in hundreds of locations between 2012 and 2014. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 02:03, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::The ACCs might have been part of the means to power for the WCG. In this theory, the construction of the ACCs was part of what bankrupted the nations, paving the way for debt forgiveness through assimilation. Who's to say that the whole framing of the BioCrisis and promotion of the ACCs wasn't partly a deliberate plot by the WCG to rise to power? Of course they would have been called something else before they became the (not-quite-entire-)world government, but the proto-WCG could still have been the ones to design the ACCs, explaining their uniformity (of course, it's our assumption that they're uniform). This makes the timing of events much more comfortable than imagining the enormous ACCs being built in hundreds of locations between 2012 and 2014. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 02:03, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::Too much focus on debt, I'd say, and also not sure why there would have been extra debt if all the countries were in the same ACC-building boat. With a proto-WCG emerging early on, the Uprising wouldn't have been as much of a surprise for everyone (including the Network, which wouldn't have struggled so much). In the view that the BioCrisis was in lack of a global solution at the time of the Uprising, the express construction of ACCs (on top of pre-existing power plants), and an unexpected efficiency of the new world order in combating the BioCrisis could have been an impressive feat of the WCG's early months, counterbalancing their oppressive reforms in other domains. Also, the ACCs needn't have been built huge from the beginning. Tiers may have been added in the next 20 years to keep up with the progressing BioCrisis. Point taken about the ACCs not necessarily being uniform -- I'm saying the same thing about Contaminated Zones, so it's only fair. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 03:23, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::Too much focus on debt, I'd say, and also not sure why there would have been extra debt if all the countries were in the same ACC-building boat. With a proto-WCG emerging early on, the Uprising wouldn't have been as much of a surprise for everyone (including the Network, which wouldn't have struggled so much). In the view that the BioCrisis was in lack of a global solution at the time of the Uprising, the express construction of ACCs (on top of pre-existing power plants), and an unexpected efficiency of the new world order in combating the BioCrisis could have been an impressive feat of the WCG's early months, counterbalancing their oppressive reforms in other domains. Also, the ACCs needn't have been built huge from the beginning. Tiers may have been added in the next 20 years to keep up with the progressing BioCrisis. Point taken about the ACCs not necessarily being uniform -- I'm saying the same thing about Contaminated Zones, so it's only fair. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 03:23, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::"…the ACCs needn't have been built huge from the beginning. Tiers may have been added…" -- Good point. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
===The Scratch=== | ===The Scratch=== | ||
| Line 67: | Line 74: | ||
:That said, sure, maybe Hasegawa's not telling us everything -- or maybe sparing us some details, rather. Indeed it is possible that Jamie was headed for a fate worse than death, turning into something unspeakable -- like a screaming chunk of meat. Bones melted, eyes gone, skin coming off, but some of the brain/spine still functioning... Some of Jamie's lovely features still (barely) recognizable, and the last remains of her strength as a person being channelled into a drawn-out mix of wheezes and bubbles... Sorry, was that your lunch? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | :That said, sure, maybe Hasegawa's not telling us everything -- or maybe sparing us some details, rather. Indeed it is possible that Jamie was headed for a fate worse than death, turning into something unspeakable -- like a screaming chunk of meat. Bones melted, eyes gone, skin coming off, but some of the brain/spine still functioning... Some of Jamie's lovely features still (barely) recognizable, and the last remains of her strength as a person being channelled into a drawn-out mix of wheezes and bubbles... Sorry, was that your lunch? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::Well that's a morbid take on it. But we could just as easily assume she was transforming into an out-of-control Imago-type. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST) | ::Well that's a morbid take on it. But we could just as easily assume she was transforming into an out-of-control Imago-type. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::Complete cellular breakdown, they wrote (said?). Dying in my arms, he said (wrote?). Not much evidence for Imago (and, from human to Imago in minutes? really?) -- apart from those Barabas-like colors -- and you're colorblind. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 10:30, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::Complete cellular breakdown, they wrote (said?). Dying in my arms, he said (wrote?). Not much evidence for Imago (and, from human to Imago in minutes? really?) -- apart from those Barabas-like colors -- and you're colorblind. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 10:30, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::True. I can't really say that I found my sudden-Imago theory to be very plausible. Imago shouldn't really be possible without the Chrysalis. Just thought I'd try the idea out loud. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:As for taking a sample from Jamie's body -- the Hasegawas were traveling lightly, mostly planning on taking pictures, by the looks of it. If they had brought small bio-hazard-proof containers just in-case, then indeed he might have taken a probe right there and then (that's not mentioned in the "Murder or Mercy" article, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen). Without a proper container, he'd have to carry the "thing" wrapped up in clothes -- not very scientific. And best not think about showing it to Kerr later on... --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | :As for taking a sample from Jamie's body -- the Hasegawas were traveling lightly, mostly planning on taking pictures, by the looks of it. If they had brought small bio-hazard-proof containers just in-case, then indeed he might have taken a probe right there and then (that's not mentioned in the "Murder or Mercy" article, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen). Without a proper container, he'd have to carry the "thing" wrapped up in clothes -- not very scientific. And best not think about showing it to Kerr later on... --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:Since we're talking about the polaroids (oh wait, are we?), what about Hasegawa hugging Jamie's infected body like he's desperately trying to contract "it" from her, whatever "it" is? If the scene really happened, it's very unscientific indeed -- or maybe by then Hasegawa had realized that he was somehow immune to the stuff? Could it be that Hasegawa was already a symbiote by then? (muahahaha) Ahem. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | :Since we're talking about the polaroids (oh wait, are we?), what about Hasegawa hugging Jamie's infected body like he's desperately trying to contract "it" from her, whatever "it" is? If the scene really happened, it's very unscientific indeed -- or maybe by then Hasegawa had realized that he was somehow immune to the stuff? Could it be that Hasegawa was already a symbiote by then? (muahahaha) Ahem. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
| Line 74: | Line 82: | ||
:::Hm, which drama/complexity of which scenario could you mean here? Excursions deeper into that same Zone (with a hazard suit) or into other Zones make perfect sense, but they're also completely optional. If Hasegawa is thorough as a scientist, he'll go through with it, but if he's lucky or lazy, he'll be satisfied with a few samples from the "crime scene". Clearly I am keen on the idea of Mukade being, if not an acolyte of Hasegawa, at least one of those "thugs" who earned an undisputed right to implantation early on -- and somehow he was tolerated by Muro later on, too, despite being an obvious rival. Early contribution to the Daodan project, such as infiltration and data/sample retrieval, could justify Mukade's apparent "emeritus" status. Of course, Mukade may just have been Muro's mentor, who "killed" Hasegawa and became the badass father that Muro always wanted -- but I feel like I'm not done with the Mukade~=Hasegawa theory at this point, so naturally I am exploring the bond that they may have developed when the project started, i.e., before Muro+Hasegawa and Mai+Kerr were separated. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::Hm, which drama/complexity of which scenario could you mean here? Excursions deeper into that same Zone (with a hazard suit) or into other Zones make perfect sense, but they're also completely optional. If Hasegawa is thorough as a scientist, he'll go through with it, but if he's lucky or lazy, he'll be satisfied with a few samples from the "crime scene". Clearly I am keen on the idea of Mukade being, if not an acolyte of Hasegawa, at least one of those "thugs" who earned an undisputed right to implantation early on -- and somehow he was tolerated by Muro later on, too, despite being an obvious rival. Early contribution to the Daodan project, such as infiltration and data/sample retrieval, could justify Mukade's apparent "emeritus" status. Of course, Mukade may just have been Muro's mentor, who "killed" Hasegawa and became the badass father that Muro always wanted -- but I feel like I'm not done with the Mukade~=Hasegawa theory at this point, so naturally I am exploring the bond that they may have developed when the project started, i.e., before Muro+Hasegawa and Mai+Kerr were separated. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::For what it's worth, I am not entirely sure that it's the "flowering shrub" that caused the infection, and not, say, something in the air or dew or such (which would fit in better with the airborne "biological contamination" mentioned in {{C|4}}). Of course, if it's in the air, then it's not clear why it's not going for Jamie's and Hasegawa's eyes right away. Or, for that matter, if it's so pervasive, then why was it safe for Hasegawa to have Jamie dying "in [his] arms", almost French-kissing? It's all very sketchy. It could be resolved to some extent if we say that the Hasegawas ''were'' wearing some reasonable protection, and it's just Konoko's "dreamaroids" that picture them hiking into a supposedly afflicted area unprotected. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::For what it's worth, I am not entirely sure that it's the "flowering shrub" that caused the infection, and not, say, something in the air or dew or such (which would fit in better with the airborne "biological contamination" mentioned in {{C|4}}). Of course, if it's in the air, then it's not clear why it's not going for Jamie's and Hasegawa's eyes right away. Or, for that matter, if it's so pervasive, then why was it safe for Hasegawa to have Jamie dying "in [his] arms", almost French-kissing? It's all very sketchy. It could be resolved to some extent if we say that the Hasegawas ''were'' wearing some reasonable protection, and it's just Konoko's "dreamaroids" that picture them hiking into a supposedly afflicted area unprotected. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::In my conception of the Wilderness, each species has its own defenses. The flowering shrub ''really'' doesn't mix well with human physiology. Other flora/fauna may be fairly non-reactive with humans. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::"As long as that plant contained the Daodan, it doesn't matter if anything else did." As I said above, the similarities between Jamie's cellular breakdown and Daodan symbiosis are actually minor, and even Hasegawa's notion of a "poisonous world" doesn't quite describe the Wilderness as you see it (in my opinion), as well as Muro's "dead air and foul water". But, even if the bush was Daodan-enhanced, Hasegawa would want to know if it was just that one bush that was "poisonous", or that particular bush species, or, as he actually puts it, the whole "world outside the Atmospheric Processors". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::"As long as that plant contained the Daodan, it doesn't matter if anything else did." As I said above, the similarities between Jamie's cellular breakdown and Daodan symbiosis are actually minor, and even Hasegawa's notion of a "poisonous world" doesn't quite describe the Wilderness as you see it (in my opinion), as well as Muro's "dead air and foul water". But, even if the bush was Daodan-enhanced, Hasegawa would want to know if it was just that one bush that was "poisonous", or that particular bush species, or, as he actually puts it, the whole "world outside the Atmospheric Processors". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::One thing that you're not making clear in your Wilderness theory is how it spread a lot at first, engulfing large areas, and then seemingly stopped. If Daodan symbiosis propagates upon contact, and each affected cell becomes a new source, then wouldn't the WCG need to build new rings of fences every week? Also, it it's so good at spreading-upon-contact, then wouldn't it have hit Hasegawa too? Airplanes flying over a Zone notice contamination in the air -- spores? pollen? -- and Hasegawa is down there breathing that stuff... And, for that matter, if it causes noticable contamination on aircraft then why hasn't airborne propagation caused generalized Daodanization yet? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::One thing that you're not making clear in your Wilderness theory is how it spread a lot at first, engulfing large areas, and then seemingly stopped. If Daodan symbiosis propagates upon contact, and each affected cell becomes a new source, then wouldn't the WCG need to build new rings of fences every week? Also, it it's so good at spreading-upon-contact, then wouldn't it have hit Hasegawa too? Airplanes flying over a Zone notice contamination in the air -- spores? pollen? -- and Hasegawa is down there breathing that stuff... And, for that matter, if it causes noticable contamination on aircraft then why hasn't airborne propagation caused generalized Daodanization yet? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::My version of the Wilderness is indeed not stopping. The WCG has fenced it in (using whatever technology we want to imagine), but it's still spreading. Once in a while it touches down in a new remote location and grows too far before it can be killed off. Think of a forest fire: you can contain it, but it can also jump your attempts at containment. In this case, the Wilderness is spreading both underground and through the air. This is explained in scientific terms in a couple different places I'm too lazy to link to. To be clear, the Daodan doesn't jump from species to species (my Jamie hypothesis above was not a part of my "Daodan theory", it was just a lark). It remains lodged in each species' DNA (or what-have-you), but each species is exceptionally good at doing what life does: multiplying itself. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
===Daodan Genesis=== | ===Daodan Genesis=== | ||
| Line 120: | Line 130: | ||
::::I honestly have no idea what you are talking about when you say that. My work is as search-indexed as anything else on the wiki. The BGI pages show up in a search for "BGI", are in the BGI category, and are linked to from [[BGI]] and [[AE:BGI]]. It would indeed be nice if all the images were categorized by the character(s) they depict. I called for that work to be done on [[OniGalore:Current_events|Current events]], but haven't had the time for it, nor has anyone else shown an inclination to start helping with the wiki while you've been away. Thank you for at least cat.ing the Konoko pics. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 14:45, 8 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::I honestly have no idea what you are talking about when you say that. My work is as search-indexed as anything else on the wiki. The BGI pages show up in a search for "BGI", are in the BGI category, and are linked to from [[BGI]] and [[AE:BGI]]. It would indeed be nice if all the images were categorized by the character(s) they depict. I called for that work to be done on [[OniGalore:Current_events|Current events]], but haven't had the time for it, nor has anyone else shown an inclination to start helping with the wiki while you've been away. Thank you for at least cat.ing the Konoko pics. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 14:45, 8 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::[[User:Iritscen/BGI/Overview|THESE]] [[User:Iritscen/BGI/Level_Plan|THREE]] [[User:Iritscen/BGI/Gapfilling|PAGES]] (and [[User:Iritscen/BGI|THIS]] other one) do ''not'' show up in Search, and aren't linked from anywhere prominent (except maybe AE:BGI, but it has an quasi-"obsolete" banner at the top). So you can cat them all you like, people casually looking up BGI won't ever know they're there. I'm not complaining, mind you, let alone throwing stones -- I managed to find them in the end, and that's good enough for me. I would have loved it if you had refrained from slapping a cat on "my" page, but I won't hold it against you. Everyone is entitled to as much pigheadedness as he can carry. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 15:37, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::[[User:Iritscen/BGI/Overview|THESE]] [[User:Iritscen/BGI/Level_Plan|THREE]] [[User:Iritscen/BGI/Gapfilling|PAGES]] (and [[User:Iritscen/BGI|THIS]] other one) do ''not'' show up in Search, and aren't linked from anywhere prominent (except maybe AE:BGI, but it has an quasi-"obsolete" banner at the top). So you can cat them all you like, people casually looking up BGI won't ever know they're there. I'm not complaining, mind you, let alone throwing stones -- I managed to find them in the end, and that's good enough for me. I would have loved it if you had refrained from slapping a cat on "my" page, but I won't hold it against you. Everyone is entitled to as much pigheadedness as he can carry. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 15:37, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::::You're going to have to be more specific. What search terms do *not* turn up those pages? What terms would you expect to work? To be clear, I don't actually care if the BGI pages "show up" anywhere. They're my own private plan and were not intended to be integrated into the wiki. They lived in personal Google Docs for years until I shut down my GDrive account. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | |||