Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions

::::::::::::::::::::::"The wide band of asphalt has me wondering if you can super-contain and super-conceal at the same time." What, you mean the ''very ample parking'' that the WCG has thoughtfully placed around the Preserves? Strange that they built such a big parking lot when it's so hard to get a permit to go on a safari in those Preserves, but hey, that's government efficiency for you. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 17:22, 30 July 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::::::::::::Serious answer: It all depends on how far the Preserves are from the Cities, how many people are asking questions, and how total the WCG's control is over information leaks. Yes, the "poor wretches" working on the reclamation team ("reclamation wretches"?) know the truth, but who listens to them? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 17:22, 30 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::::::::::Let me re-state my position re: the "actual" Wilderness threat as you envision it "during Oni 2": with daodanimals pointing their noses, and insect swarms ''finally'' joining the airborne seeding fun, Nausicaa-style (sorry, but the analogy with the modus propagandi of the Sea of Corruption is too exact to overlook). I understand that your story ultimately presents it all as ''the'' threat faced by the protagonist and by humanity in general, but in my impression, such a development would work best if it's one of ''several'' major concerns. Phase hazards, META issues (civilization alienated from within/above, rather than "evicted" by alienated flora/fauna) and belligerent human factions -- those are just a few things that could shift the focus from WPs back to urban areas time and again. My feeling is that it would ensure some variety and keep the plot from being dominated by a Wilderness fetish that's too "green" and (yes, sorry) Nausicaa-like. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 03:32, 30 July 2020 (CEST)  

::::::::::::::::::::::Too many threats. Unless you plan to join some of them with a common root that the good guys can attack. Otherwise you've just produced a [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld Crapsack World] that no one can do anything about and that players don't want to live in. But to be clear, I never suggested making the whole game about fighting the Wilderness. Then it would be called Reclamation Wretches, and that's a totally different game ("Press X to customize your flamethrower…"). For my ideas on other aspects of the story besides dealing with the Wilderness, see the [[Oni2:Slaves of War/Factions|Factions]] page. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 17:22, 30 July 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::::::Secondly, you're reading the manual's sentence too literally. The poor people who can't live within an ACC's main area of effect live in something like a shantytown outside city limits. The job that some of them have is going to work every day fighting against the spread of the BioCrisis. That doesn't mean the Wilderness is right outside the cities. It just means that they have a rough job and that they live on the edge of the habitable zone. I'm sure that "and" was really meant there. What the sentence doesn't tell us how far they commute to work each day. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 22:09, 27 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::::::Off-road commuting for hundreds of miles has to be the worst job ever, indeed. Your point is clear, and I don't think there is any radical disagreement here (if anything, I said there's some welcome food for thought). However, like for the airborne spreading, it all boils down to quantitative considerations VS qualitative ones. I am a scientist at heart and by trade, so yeah, I tend to: a) read that kind of stuff literally; b) favor basic logic and math over figures of speech. On the face of it, the manual says that there are people living at the edge of atmospheric-processed areas, with "dead air and foul water" right next door: settle any further out, and the toxic air/water will start causing gruesome diseases and birth defects (that's just what the "edge of the habitable zone" is, by definition). Seen that way, it makes total sense for the "reclamation teams" to be hard at work right outside the shantytowns, "beating back" the limits of their ''own'' habitat (as well as helping to preserve the air quality in an ACC's "main area of effect"). That said, if the actual source of the contamination is identified as being located far outside the city limits, rather than adjacent to the slums, then indeed it makes sense to have "commuters" who wander towards the Wilderness Preserves and stamp out whatever is causing the toxicity to spread (although I am not sure the term "reclamation teams" would be fitting for this kind of task -- they'd be more like "excisors", "surgeons", "foresters" or, yes, "stalkers"). My key point, if I may reiterate it, is that, if this latter "stalking" occupation is even more precarious than that of the reclamation teams (the ones that merely decontaminate the areas around the slums that they live in), then -- as I already said -- this supposed WPTF comes across as much more humble than the dignified TCTF (despite a supposedly comparable importance of the two initiatives), and it may not fit in too well with the idea that there's this big high-level conspiracy surrounding the Wilderness. It can work, but it will require some new statements: about the WCG's penal system, about the not-so-free circulation of people or information between the inner cities and the slums, etc. If, on the other hand, the Wilderness expands only marginally (vegetative reproduction?), and there is no need for daily monitoring by a "WPTF" (precarious or otherwise), then the sentence from the manual is just about "reclamation teams" that are decontaminating areas right outside the slums, and that's it. It can work either way, and I don't feel like I'm closing any doors at this point. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 17:09, 28 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::::::::::Heh. Looking back at the debate (not just on this page, but through the years), it's funny how I've been oscillating between "ACCs are doing a decent job" and "ACCs are just for show, people are f##ked". Currently I'm reconciling this is in a "time-dependent" fashion just like for the toxicity levels above. Back in 2014, the freshly built ACCs were doing fine and Hasegawa had no real reason to set his sights on something as radical as the Chrysalis (except of course in the TNZ perspective), but in 2032 the rising toxin levels (whether of Diluvian/WP origin or caused by Muro's sabotage of the ACCs) are close to alarming all right. I believe there is a way to rationalize all this in some compact form, making the most of Oni's data, and without too many "deus ex machina" or "alien ex Gaia" tricks. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 03:32, 30 July 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::::::::::::Hasegawa was a visionary, that's why he foresaw the need for a radical solution to the BioCrisis. He may have also been a little crazed after the loss of Jamie, and per Hardy. As far as "rationaliz[ing] all this in some compact form", that's exactly what I did [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Overview#Backstory|HERE]]. Not that there isn't room for tweaking it, or that you have to adopt my theory, but just sayin'… somebody already tied everything together. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 17:22, 30 July 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::It may seem naive of the WCG to think they can contain the Wilderness, but they might know full well that it's a losing battle. They also are taking steps to contain the growing Wilderness, but clearly they're losing since the toxins in the air are increasing, according to Oni. Also, to whatever degree they're wrong about how well they have it contained, that's our way of adding some drama to the story. Finding out that the trophic level of the Wilderness is advancing to herbivores, insectivores, and then carnivores will be an alarming development. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::The [[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Secondary_Stage|increasing air toxicity]] is one of the most ambiguous parts of Oni canon. Not only does it involve the infamous "36.18% increase" of Dioxin levels, but it seemingly presents the toxin rise as a consequence of Muro's retrofitting of the ACCs. At no point are the WPs stated as a prominent source of airborne toxins in Oni's world: all we have is "biological contamination" encountered during flyovers, and the uncanny "virus" from Jamie's bush. Of course it doesn't mean that toxins don't emanate from the Contaminated Zones at all, but it doesn't establish the WPs as the planet's "toxic lungs", either. If anything, I'd blame a WCG-era toxin rise (pre-Muro) on imperfect waste processing procedures at the ACCs. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::::I've been meaning to address this one elsewhere (thanks for answering, BTW). For most of your perceived gaps, since they're listed as open questions, my replies would probably grow out of proportion rather easily, so it seems wise to take this (important) argument to a dedicated page. A few quick replies, though: 9) Per game data, the BioCrisis at the time of Oni's events is mostly about the steady rise in toxin levels, which (per game data again) is because of how Muro has infiltrated ACCs worldwide, sabotaged the "core filtration systems", and made sure that it all remained undetected for as long as possible (at least until the "Daodan core technology" was ready for mass implantation, at which point less subtle bio-terror could take over); so Oni's answer is "Muro's Sturmanderung is behind the BioCrisis, [[:Image:Act_3_.MISSION_FAILED.png|simple as that]]"; the pre-Muro and pre-ACC eco-issues are another story, but [[Quotes/Consoles#BioCrisis|THIS]] BioCrisis is almost certainly Muro-made; 7) In the trimmed Oni, BGI/Musashi is a corrupt consortium that is "joined at the hip" with Muro's Sturmanderung project (logistics, infrastructure, ACC sabotage); Muro's gambit in Chapter 2 can be a hint to BGI that their services are no longer needed and/or a threat to keep them from spilling the beans; 2) The prime symbiotes were ''prototypes''; little about them is suitable for mass production: implantation at a young age, 24/7 monitoring, potential instability, out-of-control superpowers.... Muro&Co apparently spent some time developing the "Daodan core technology" that would allow consenting adult hosts to survive in a toxic world, without turning them into uncontrollable freaks (and with minimal load on QA&Support); 4) In a way, that's close enough to Hasegawa's declared goal: people ''will'' be killed by the poisonous world, unless they embrace "hyper-evolution"; Muro is just providing some extra motivation by making sure the world ''does'' become poisonous; 3) For that matter, who is Barabas? he and Muro seem to be referencing some non-trivial events in their common past ("I'm ready for anything. You made sure of that. - There's always someone stronger. Have you forgotten? - No, I haven't. I'll be careful. - See that you are. You know the consequences of failure."), which in a way is more intriguing than Mukade's aura of mystery; in the light of the "Daodan core technology" as a part of the Sturmanderung plan, Barabas and Mukade are clearly more prototypes -- test beds for all the little "do"s and "don't"s of general-availability Daodan symbiosis; from what we see, Barabas turned out rather well with mass production in mind (strong yet docile and relatively sane); Mukade, not so much (more like a one-of-a-kind overpowered freak). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 03:32, 30 July 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::::::I don't know that a page dedicated to gaps would be that useful, as it would require another sprawling conversation full of inter-related points, but certainly it would be better than having that discussion here (this page would be crashing our browser by now if it was still 2008, and in 2020 it's starting to spin up my laptop's fans as I type). And honestly, I don't know if another major story discussion is the best use of our time. I think just about ''anything'' else we could do (wiki maintenance, tool development, etc.) would be a better use of our time. So I can't promise to participate, if such a page does get started. But FWIW, I could go along with several of your answers above. Barabas' backstory actually seems pretty plain vanilla to me. He rose through the ranks of the Strikers until Muro noticed him. He probably challenged Muro, perhaps for leadership of the Syndicate, and Muro kicked his butt (Muro is the "someone stronger"). Muro decided to use him as a guinea pig for implantation, since if it didn't work, Barabas would be out of his hair, but if it did work, he'd be dependent on Muro for maintaining the suit which keeps him stable. This is of course just guesswork on my part. To me, the secondary symbiotes Mukade and Barabas are both clearly less stable and capable than Muro and Mai, the result of Hasegawa pulling his support from the Daodan project and going into hiding some time before. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 17:22, 30 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::Specifically on what you said up there: indeed Griffin's "pet doctors" wouldn't be able to just go and google up Wilderness lifeforms from their Science Prison quarters. On the other hand, prisoners can't blab, so if there's any classified knowledge that can help in analyzing the Daodan, then there's nothing that's keeping the Directorate from sharing that information with Griffin's science team. However, if we adopt BGI as an important faction and the WCG's true response to Muro and STURMANDERUNG, then perhaps there isn't much interest in Daodan development at all -- Kerr&Co are supposed to cautiously experiment with Konoko, and then BGI will just crush Muro and the Strikers, shutting down STURMANDERUNG and leaving Griffin with no reason to keep Konoko alive. If that's what the WCG's game is, then indeed it makes sense if Daodan scientists are left in the black about the alien/Daodan nature of the Wilderness. And of course all of that is moot if no one at the time of Oni's events is actually aware of the subtle Daodan influence on WP plants, let alone of Diluvians being the source of that influence. The best kept secrets are ones that ''no one'' knows about. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::As for whether Hasegawa and Kerr knew the truth -- I feel like we haven't even started debating how much those 2001 Bungie-made characters ''should'' have known about all that Diluvian business that ''we'' made up eons later ^_^ In my view, if you scrap the Diluvians ([[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#I_had_no_need_of_that_hypothesis|Laplace-]] and [[wp:Occam's_razor|Occam]]-style), then there doesn't need to be ''any'' link or similarity ''at all'' between Hasegawa's Chrysalis research and the virulent pathogens from the Contaminated Zones (whether they're poisonous bushes, pools of goo, WMD payloads, etc) -- well, no link apart from how the Contaminated Zones have an ample store of threats that the Chrysalis is supposed to counter. If that's what the Wilderness is (nothing ''too'' special), then Hasegawa merely regards it as a versatile repository of "stress or harm" (and incidentally "the nightmare that killed Jamie", hence his quest for a palliative). If, however, some of the flora in the Zones ''is'' phase-enhanced, then it's something that Hasegawa may have identified during his preliminary research -- after which he would have naturally tried to emulate some of those symbiotic properties in his own experiments (like synthetic cell-sized organelles that allow a Daodan entity to "stay online" after a first contact with a human host). Whichever it is, and whether an ancient race of symbiotes has anything to do with it, I think we both agree that the Daodan entities that exalted Konoko and Muro are two distinct phase entities, and also quite distinct from the entity/entities that may be influencing WP flora through phase-induced mutation. Therefore it might make sense that neither Hasegawa not Kerr&Co have actually drawn much of a connection. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)