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User talk:Geyser: Difference between revisions
moral closure
(geyser, have you ever thought about making the change to an uppercase G? You should totally go for it!) |
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::::::::::::Ok, I am quickly tiring of this argument, it isn't going anywhere. | ::::::::::::Ok, I am quickly tiring of this argument, it isn't going anywhere. | ||
::::::::::::Might I add that this is not the software industry where millions of dollars are made every year? This is a roughly open modding project, where nobody gets paid. If anything, the project on the whole loses money due to webspace costs (thank Alloc for keeping oni2 up) and time that could be spent doing other things. :) [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 00:21, 26 August 2008 (CEST) | ::::::::::::Might I add that this is not the software industry where millions of dollars are made every year? This is a roughly open modding project, where nobody gets paid. If anything, the project on the whole loses money due to webspace costs (thank Alloc for keeping oni2 up) and time that could be spent doing other things. :) [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 00:21, 26 August 2008 (CEST) | ||
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:PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY | |||
:Thanks everybody, and special thanks to Iritscen who started this, er, whatever it is: for the sake of the argument, let's not call it a flame war. Overlooking the existing flag-browsing tools was forgivable, but the generalization that followed annoyed me deeply, all the more as it gravitated to the infamous "wouldn't it be cool if modding was at every fanboy's fingertips" topic, with brief excursions into PC-VS-Mac territory. I hated every bit of it (including my own comment on the matter), and I will be deleting this whole section in a short while. | |||
:If I wanted to participate in the debate or give it some sort of moral closure, I could say things like: | |||
::"Oni's models, levels and animations were done in 3D Studio Max and AutoCAD, and Windows at that time was nowhere close to today's OS environments - OS X or Vista or Ubuntu or whatever - in terms of point-and-clickety-friendliness..." | |||
:or: | |||
::"Speaking of AutoCAD - a highly professional tool if there ever was one - did you know it is mostly operated through a command-line interface? Another contemporary 3D application that features a command-line is Softimage|XSI - used among others by the creators of Half-Life 2... and by certain fluent Oni modders." | |||
:or: | |||
::"Creative people are creative no matter what the OS or GUIs at their disposal, and have always been. If this is not the case today, then our potential creators have been swallowed by the point-and-click generation, and we're pretty much screwed." | |||
:or: | |||
::"If a modder's idea of upper-level modding is messing around with Oni's animation system one parameter at a time, that modder probably sucks really bad. Hordes of such people picking at Oni by means of an ideal GUI is not a pleasant perspective. Or is it?" | |||
:or, making things slightly more personal: | |||
::"If you think you're the one who'll bring that ideal GUI to the community - note that this typically requires low-level thinking rather than point-and-click enthusiasm - by all means don't talk of it "beforehand" - that little word actually doesn't make any sense in the absence of subsequent delivery. We'll see about awesome in due time, but why doncha produce something that doesn't suck, first?" | |||
:and: | |||
::"If you're in fact trying to hype ''other'' people into designing the ideal GUI, I assure you that those other people all understand the amount of programming work and raw binary knowledge that was put into OniTools and OniSplit/OniBrowser, and they also understand the appeal and potential of future developments of Oni modding (no thanks to you). Thus, making levels and animations conveniently moddable are Neo's top priorities on planet Oni ATM, thanks for asking." | |||
:But since all I want is get this over with, I'll just say these few things to Iritscen: | |||
:You are making a reasonably good point in your diatribes, which is that complex entities such as animations and geometry should be authored in a GUI environment rather than in raw hex. OK... That kind of trivial statement is damn hard to disagree with: likewise, it doesn't take a Male Scientist to know that I, geyser, wouldn't spit in the face of the one who'd hand me the equivalent of Bungie West's authoring pipeline on a silver platter; a set of modding tools reasonably close to what Oni's developers were using can't be bad, now can it? | |||
:Why aren't we agreeing with you, then? Sure your point is trivial, but we could at least give you a half-hearted "Yeah, you're right... I guess" - and we probably ''would''... But then you go and bury your one trivial point in a landslide of rhetorics, sarcasm and verbal onanism, and to make things worse you consistently shove the obvious in our faces as if it was an all-new initiative of yours. That's typically the situation where I'm no longer in a position to agree, and all I feel like saying is STFUn00b. | |||
:Probably that "initiative hi-jacking" I mentioned is just part of your hey-mom-look-I'm-a-developer act, and I can try and turn a blind eye on it; after all, I used to be like that too. However, what I can hardly understand or tolerate is that you never drop your high-level end-user philosophy even when you're talking about programming. To focus on the GUI is OK for a salesman or consultant or beta tester, but if you're serious about that developer hat of yours, you have to get down to earth from time to time. Development is work. Modding is not for the lazy/clueless, and programming even less so. A GUI for Oni modding is everything but abstract, so you can forget all the guru talk you've picked up in computer science shool or wherever: you're interfacing with real-world data structures; you're doing 3D graphics; you're generating content for engines and tools that you didn't code yourself: you need to think on the low level and to pay elementary attention to every single thing you see or do. So it's OK to be a point-and-click enthusiast, but I assure you: you have to drop that enthusiasm a bit and pick up something else before you can actually sit down and code the point-and-clickety GUI you're dreaming of right now. | |||
:P.S. "ZDLO just cut-and-pasted (there it is again!) the code geyser wrote for entering flag numbers." You couldn't be more wrong here, so I think you didn't actually read or test ZDLO's scripts at all. These assumptions of yours are yet another thing that can get an actual programmer ''very'' cross, as in STFUn00b again. ZDLO used his own code for the most part, and no, BSL is definitely not about cut-and-pasting. You need flawless attention and awareness, and you better get used to thinking of programming that way. | |||
:P.P.S. "geyser, have you ever thought about making the change to an uppercase G? You should totally go for it!" Just because you have nothing to say doesn't mean you should tell me how I should capitalize my nickname. I chose it to be lowercase for several reasons, one of which is a permanent note to self about humility; that one never gets old. Also note that in many circumstances capitalization wins, e.g. here on the wiki (user names are capitalized everywhere except in signatures) or on YouTube. So, STFU forever. | |||
:P.P.P.S. This is unrelated to the above, but I have come to a point where I absolutely have to break virtually all contact with Oni, or else I'll never pick up the pieces of my PhD. I'll post an update when I delete this section, but basically that means: read-only access to the wiki at the most, maybe some updates in the form of links to freshly uploaded stuff, and definitely no chat. | |||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 17:54, 26 August 2008 (CEST) | |||