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Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions
Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events (view source)
Revision as of 10:08, 9 June 2020
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::::For more on how the Wilderness has to spread in order to prepare the way for Earth's original masters to live on it again, see the second bullet point [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Polylectiloquy#What_would_Oni_2_be_about.3F|here]] and then [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Neo-Biology#Nature_and_origin|this part]] of my Neo-Biology page. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 01:13, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::For more on how the Wilderness has to spread in order to prepare the way for Earth's original masters to live on it again, see the second bullet point [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Polylectiloquy#What_would_Oni_2_be_about.3F|here]] and then [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Neo-Biology#Nature_and_origin|this part]] of my Neo-Biology page. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 01:13, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::I'm a big disliker of time-traveling in sci-fi (mainly because of how we're all sitting on a rock that's careening through space, so traveling forward in time even a split second would leave you in that rock's wake, gasping for air). If your "time travel" is actually akin to hibernation, then of course it works better. However, in that case, I'd say the Daodan doesn't need to be time-traveling either. The "Oldies" (or whatever you'd call them) would just pack daodandelion seeds into time capsules that say "Do not open until X-Mas 1999", and voilà. Phase veil? What for? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::I'm a big disliker of time-traveling in sci-fi (mainly because of how we're all sitting on a rock that's careening through space, so traveling forward in time even a split second would leave you in that rock's wake, gasping for air). If your "time travel" is actually akin to hibernation, then of course it works better. However, in that case, I'd say the Daodan doesn't need to be time-traveling either. The "Oldies" (or whatever you'd call them) would just pack daodandelion seeds into time capsules that say "Do not open until X-Mas 1999", and voilà. Phase veil? What for? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::The only problem then is, I'm no longer sure that it's still Oni that we're talking about and not some Mass Effect DLC (with timeless Leviathans at the bottom of oceans, or Reapers chilling in the darkness of space until it's "time to collect"). I know you're convinced that the dying Jamie (as dreamed up by Konoko) looks | :::::The only problem then is, I'm no longer sure that it's still Oni that we're talking about and not some Mass Effect DLC (with timeless Leviathans at the bottom of oceans, or Reapers chilling in the darkness of space until it's "time to collect"). I know you're convinced that the dying Jamie (as dreamed up by Konoko) kinda looks like Barabas, but drawing a parallel between Jamie's complete cellular breakdown and Mai's or Muro's integrity-preserving symbiosis is a bit of a stretch even by my standards. You seem to imply that the "flowering shrub" is Daodan-enhanced (like Konoko? or in some other way that Oni says nothing about?), and Jamie, not having the same DNA signature as the shrub, is destroyed upon contact with its Chrysalis instead of being "reinforced or replaced". So how does this feed back into Oni? If Konoko spits in Griffin's face, does he rot alive in minutes? is that how it works? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::Mostly agree about the Wilderness Preserves being mostly overgrown -- not like a large dump can't be covered in greenery, mind you, or covered-up by limiting access to satellite imagery (Oni's space programs are not the same as NASA's and ESA's, so we don't know what satellites they had in orbit before the Uprising, and who was running them). At any rate, Hasegawa's tale is really telling us that "the world outside the ACCs is poisonous" so, at least in the one Zone that he and Jamie set foot into, the virus (or whatever) had apparently "gone to seed" in most of the Zone's lifeforms. This is not telling us that the virus (or whatever) didn't spread from a man-made container discarded somewhere deep in the forest, or from a secret underground lab, or from an enigmatic phase portal (or xenoforming time capsule). Like I said earlier, Zones (Preserves) don't all have to look the same or kill their local Jamies in the same fashion. It's only your own Wilderness fixation that's giving you that idea. (For what it's worth, would Jamie's Zone cause "biological contamination" on a plane passing overhead, that would be immediately noticed and reported by pilots? I wouldn't be so sure.) --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::Mostly agree about the Wilderness Preserves being mostly overgrown -- not like a large dump can't be covered in greenery, mind you, or covered-up by limiting access to satellite imagery (Oni's space programs are not the same as NASA's and ESA's, so we don't know what satellites they had in orbit before the Uprising, and who was running them). At any rate, Hasegawa's tale is really telling us that "the world outside the ACCs is poisonous" so, at least in the one Zone that he and Jamie set foot into, the virus (or whatever) had apparently "gone to seed" in most of the Zone's lifeforms. This is not telling us that the virus (or whatever) didn't spread from a man-made container discarded somewhere deep in the forest, or from a secret underground lab, or from an enigmatic phase portal (or xenoforming time capsule). Like I said earlier, Zones (Preserves) don't all have to look the same or kill their local Jamies in the same fashion. It's only your own Wilderness fixation that's giving you that idea. (For what it's worth, would Jamie's Zone cause "biological contamination" on a plane passing overhead, that would be immediately noticed and reported by pilots? I wouldn't be so sure.) --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::Last but not least, "alien invasions" (doesn't matter if they're space aliens or time aliens or phase aliens) is one of the big caveats of sci-fi for me, if not one of the big no-nos. No matter how unfathomable and unfamiliar you're trying to picture them, they always come across as sock puppets and man-made "golems" (poor copies of ourselves) from the moment they appear on screen. If they turn out to be "bad guys", then the tropes get even worse. I probably could name more than a few exceptions to that rule (good sci-fi with believable aliens, and even with a convincing enough "invasion" going on), but the point is, I'm picky as hell when it comes to those things. The Screamer Queen mentioned by Hardy(?) I would probably tolerate because she'd be all immaterial and hungry, and probably would just equate to (super)natural disaster. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::::Last but not least, "alien invasions" (doesn't matter if they're space aliens or time aliens or phase aliens) is one of the big caveats of sci-fi for me, if not one of the big no-nos. No matter how unfathomable and unfamiliar you're trying to picture them, they always come across as sock puppets and man-made "golems" (poor copies of ourselves) from the moment they appear on screen. If they turn out to be "bad guys", then the tropes get even worse. I probably could name more than a few exceptions to that rule (good sci-fi with believable aliens, and even with a convincing enough "invasion" going on), but the point is, I'm picky as hell when it comes to those things. The Screamer Queen mentioned by Hardy(?) I would probably tolerate because she'd be all immaterial and hungry, and probably would just equate to (super)natural disaster. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
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:Having the WCG instituted in 2012 also feels a bit weird, with Jamie dying in 2014 and Chrysalises already grown in 2016 -- it just doesn't leave much time for the TCTF's regulations to have kicked in, or for the Network to have already evolved into "The Syndicate" by the time Hasegawa and Kerr start working there. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | :Having the WCG instituted in 2012 also feels a bit weird, with Jamie dying in 2014 and Chrysalises already grown in 2016 -- it just doesn't leave much time for the TCTF's regulations to have kicked in, or for the Network to have already evolved into "The Syndicate" by the time Hasegawa and Kerr start working there. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::The only awkwardly-tight timing is the development of the Daodan Chrysalis, which itself is not hard to explain if one assumes that (a) Hasegawa and Kerr had relevant prior experience, (b) the technology of the time was close enough to what they needed that they didn't have to advance all of science by a human lifespan in 3 years, and (c) they ''found'' the Daodan, rather than creating it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST) | ::The only awkwardly-tight timing is the development of the Daodan Chrysalis, which itself is not hard to explain if one assumes that (a) Hasegawa and Kerr had relevant prior experience, (b) the technology of the time was close enough to what they needed that they didn't have to advance all of science by a human lifespan in 3 years, and (c) they ''found'' the Daodan, rather than creating it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::Agree. c) Finding the Daodan (or being found by it) gave them a miraculous boost, but still left them with a probable several months of research both before the discovery (exploring/experimenting) and afterwards (designing various monitoring protocols, mostly); b) if | :::Agree. c) Finding the Daodan (or being found by it) gave them a miraculous boost, but still left them with a probable several months of research both before the discovery (exploring/experimenting) and afterwards (designing various monitoring protocols, mostly); b) if the Daodan is mostly another Phase Thingie, and the Chrysalis is cancer, then yeah, the science of Oni-2014 probably had all the basics covered; a) yeah, although it may be fun/useful to imagine what they'd been working on prior to Jamie's death. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 01:17, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:One solution I see is just to move the Uprising to the early 2000s, and the emergence of pre-WCG entities (Phase, Network, initial pollution) to the 1990s or even 1980s. That leaves the problem of the Freedom Riots occurring in 2012: if we identify them as the same "world riots" as the ones that happened immediately after the Uprising, then we'd need to edit the PSP's WPge to say "2002"; if they're different riots (10 years into WCG or something like that), then there's nothing to change. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | :One solution I see is just to move the Uprising to the early 2000s, and the emergence of pre-WCG entities (Phase, Network, initial pollution) to the 1990s or even 1980s. That leaves the problem of the Freedom Riots occurring in 2012: if we identify them as the same "world riots" as the ones that happened immediately after the Uprising, then we'd need to edit the PSP's WPge to say "2002"; if they're different riots (10 years into WCG or something like that), then there's nothing to change. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:Another solution -- that would keep both the Uprising and Freedom Riots in 2012 -- is, indeed, to say that: a) pollution (in the Zones) had existed long before the Uprising; b) one of the reasons for instituting the WCG (and building the ACCs right away) was a steady drop in air quality (but the Zones being the main source of the pollution would have remained a well-kept secret at the time -- and all the way to 2032, actually); c) the Network somehow turned into The Syndicate very quickly. Maybe I'll grow more comfortable with such a tight timeline after I/we sketch a few events from the early WCG years (ACC construction schedules, WCG's regulations and innovations, TCTF operations, radical Network/Syndicate countermeasures...) -- if it starts to look crowded, then maybe we should give it more time. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | :Another solution -- that would keep both the Uprising and Freedom Riots in 2012 -- is, indeed, to say that: a) pollution (in the Zones) had existed long before the Uprising; b) one of the reasons for instituting the WCG (and building the ACCs right away) was a steady drop in air quality (but the Zones being the main source of the pollution would have remained a well-kept secret at the time -- and all the way to 2032, actually); c) the Network somehow turned into The Syndicate very quickly. Maybe I'll grow more comfortable with such a tight timeline after I/we sketch a few events from the early WCG years (ACC construction schedules, WCG's regulations and innovations, TCTF operations, radical Network/Syndicate countermeasures...) -- if it starts to look crowded, then maybe we should give it more time. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST) | ||