Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions

::::::::::::::::Okay, I get it now that you've explained that the Phase and the veil are the same in your mind, since the other side is not being explored or glimpsed clearly. I still think it's a mistake to lump them together in a single term, because from my standpoint I want to know exactly what is on the other side. If the only people using the term "Phase" (according to your definition) are some scientists within the story, that would make sense because it reflects their lack of knowledge, but if we also use the term, it discourages us from deciding what's really on the other side — an alternate-universe Earth? a past Earth? another type of universe altogether? But perhaps this is a case where you value ambiguity and I eschew it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::::::I am investing more brains into this than I used to, so this is no longer a case of "procrastinated ambiguity" on my part. Rather, I am still brainstorming, whereas you seem to have a rather complete wishlist already. That said, you're also not 100% clear as for "what is on the other side" (even assuming you could "know for sure" somehow). First you hint at alien ingerence from beyond the veil (as if from an alternate universe or Earth), then it turns out that it's echoes from a distant past, and finally they're not echoes at all, just remote control from the seabed. Even if you see this as a carefully constructed series of revelations where you as a writer know ''exactly'' what's going on (i.e. that it's all here-and-now-ish, at least the Diluvian survivors) -- you are not saying how the Diluvians contracted Daodan powers in the first place, and where from (if it's from the Phase, then doesn't that mean that there ''is'' an alternate Earth/universe out there? and if so, just what have you disambiguated, really?). Also, what about Screamers? Are they also from a past Earth? It's OK not to know, and you don't have to lay it all out in advance. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:52, 4 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::::::The "Phase" moniker could be used by scientists and laymen alike, not unlike "Space". (When people say "Space", they can mean Earth orbit, outer space, distant galaxies and nebulae, stars and exoplanets, etc.) People naturally make the distinction between where they are and where they aren't. "Zero-phase Earth" is where people live and do science, and "out-of-phaseness" can be perceived more or less collectively and indiscriminately (disambiguating when needed, just as for Space). As briefly mentioned in a footnote on that other page, it's completely OK to treat "near" and "far" out-of-phaseness as a continuum, at least a priori. There can be any number of "alien Earths" out there, or there could be just one or two of those, or there could be none (i.e. there is just the "veil" -- impenetrable, getting thicker and more chaotic as you push in -- that allows you to boomerang back to Earth at a different place or time, but doesn't have a threshold depth past which you'd cross over to a new world). As another consideration, Phase properties don't need to be constant in time. Oni's world apparently saw a "phase emergence" in the late XX century that either was spontaneous or had something to do with the Diluvians. So maybe in the XIX century, even with the best probing technology, scientists wouldn't have detected much of a "veil", let alone "other worlds" -- and, conversely, with fully awake Diluvians (or an otherwise much larger Phase presence) there could be stable portals into "alien Earths", starting with the Screamer homeworld mentioned by Hardy. All these possibilities can unfold over time, because the Phase is subject to change. And it can seriously spice up the post-Oni world even if there isn't much of a fight with Diluvians per se. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:52, 4 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::P.S. About the Phase/veil -- "you can warp/travel through it, but you can't live there permanently" -- except maybe if you're immaterial? In the case of Screaming Cells and Daodan entities, there are no clear rules that would prevent them from living "in" the veil, so to speak -- as temporary/timeless disturbances of this ever-changing "fringe/hub world". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:42, 20 June 2020 (CEST)  

:::::::::::::::::I didn't say (Vanilla) Hasegawa was ecologically motivated! Poor choice of words, probably. I said he'd "let the world move on", but really meaning he couldn't help it going to hell (or could he? as you know, the whole point of TNZ is that he thought he ''could'', insofar as the Syndicate could be infiltrated and used as an "alienated" tool, for ACC retro-fitting and who knows what else.). So he (the Vanilla, non-TNZ Hasegawa) is humbly powerless in that respect, rather than deliberately letting nature be nature -- which means we're on the same page again, congratulations. Maybe we shouldn't be looking for disagreement in every sentence, instead finding favorable interpretations? ^_^ (maybe say things like: "assuming that by this-and-that you mean such-and-such, it looks like we agree; let me know if you meant something else") --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:52, 4 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::::::As for your "suggestion that the symbiotes are linked in a life-or-death way to the Wilderness" -- apart from the Wilderness fixation I'm all for it, even though it's a bit of a trope. I've already said that the Wilderness (with its "alien" pathogens and relentless spreading) may not be the only trouble caused by the Diluvians: if the Phase becomes more and more active as the Diluvians awake from their stasis (e.g., to relocate), then there will be more and more phase glitches worldwide, portals to other worlds, Screamer invasions... in short, fun times to live in. But, conversely, when/if the Diluvians are killed (or go back to sleep), it is entirely possible that the Phase will collapse, i.e., entities will no longer be able to travel through the "veil" as easily or at all, and those that rely on the "veil" (like Konoko's Chrysalis?) will be disrupted. Whether this should kill Konoko is debatable -- mostly it depends on how dramatic (or trope-y) you want the story to be, and I suppose there will be ample opportunity to argue about this later. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:52, 4 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::I wouldn't advise trivializing Oni canon and implying that the "straight" reading is that a WP is "just" a toxic waste dump, or that the origin of the waste is 100% industrial. We Do Not Know. Some elements of canon hint at a military origin for the waste (ghastly bioweapons that were either developed, tested or dumped in "easy to ignore" areas), or at unethical "rogue science" during the years preceding the WCG's firm technology control. A "phase twist" is also possible, like teleportation/annihilation experiments gone wrong, or phase-induced mutation of Earth organisms (not as elegant as the Chrysalis, but enough to make an impression on Hasegawa). You said "good points" to all of this down below -- when I said that Contaminated Zones weren't reduced to industrial dumps in Oni canon, and that there were lots of ways to detail them without resorting to alien ingerence. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:34, 19 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::On a sidenote, I don't see a strong correlation with Nausicaa's and my work, so perhaps this Miyazaki manga is just an obsession of yours. I could easily reduce your ideas to references to existing works as well, but haven't done so. "There is nothing new under the sun." All we can do is try to present old ideas in a new light. Presuming that you can create anything truly novel is vanity. And putting words in my mouth to make my ideas seem more Nausicaa-like is especially rude, so please stop. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::Communication with an alien mind is hard to get right, but a kaiju fight sequence is also not something that I'd recommend planning for an Oni sequel. However, perhaps there is no need for such creatures to surface or come ashore? If they are pelagic or abyssal, but possess a hivemind that (when awake) turns the aquasphere into a "thinking ocean", then supposedly they can cause tsunamis and wipe out most of the large cities -- yet they won't be able to do to much about deserts or mountain areas (at least at first). So the direct threat from the Diluvians' awakening seems manageable to me -- you just move further inland, find ways to counter the xenoforming processes (or adapt to them), and ultimately abandon Earth as a last resort. Remote "xenoimpregnation" and "indoctrination" by the Diluvians may be a problem, but probably such interference can be "screened" or "jammed" somehow, too (once you know it exists). The way I see it, the largest threat in this story may be a mere side effect of the Diluvians awakening -- namely, as their collective Daodan aura comes back to full power, it increases the Earth's "exposure"/openness to the Phase. Portals now open not just in labs or WPs, but all over the world: ball lightnings, Screamers and Mukade-knows-what-else... It doesn't matter if the Diluvians themselves are relatively placid -- once they're awake, there will be more "phase hazards" on the surface than ever before, warlords will be empowered with new weapons and entities, and civilization as we know it will take quite a blow (even if not in a doomsday kind of way). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::To be clear, I never planned to have an actual battle against a kaiju in Oni 2. It is totally doable, as plenty of video games have tackled the idea of fighting massive-scale bosses, but I don't think it's in keeping with Oni's spirit. The idea was to have just the hand of the alien enemy reaching through a phase portal, with the understanding that if the portal isn't closed soon, he'll be all the way through. The final battle would be against human-scale foes who serve the Diluvians, and it would probably be a timed battle. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::I'm not in favor of the idea that the aliens control the ocean and can cause tsunamis. As you pointed out, a tsunami could be avoided by staying inland. So it's either world-ending (no way to fight back against a massive wave), or it's out of sight and of little importance to the characters you're controlling. It also changes the nature of the story's big threat from xenoforming to a more conventional end-of-world scenario. I like the rest of your suggestion, about the increase in phase activity or anomalies, though this could also be explained by the simple fact that humans invented phase tech and are finding an increasing number of ways to use it, perhaps unaware of the dangers that come with it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::As you have noted yourself the threat of increasingly awake/aware Diluvians is a hybrid one. Tsunamis (if any) are only part of the picture, and can be seen merely as a plot device for destroying familiar cityscapes and driving subsequent action into new locations. The influence of an increasingly active hivemind on the Wilderness is a much farther-reaching threat (explosive growth? you got it!), as well as the possible emergence of human proxies (another of your suggestions). As for the more general surge of phase anomalies -- whether a heightened Phase activity is spontaneous, man-made, or caused by Diluvian cycles, I am glad that you acknowledge the additional plot-driving potential of such a development (complementary to the Wilderness threat). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::To reiterate, I never said anything about the aliens speaking English or communicating directly with humans at all. But it's helpful for storytelling and game design purposes if there are human servants of the aliens who can explain what their mission is. Any concern you might have about explaining things too clearly is simply a matter of style — the choices that are made in how the dialogue is written and staged — and way premature at this point. I see no reason to explain everything 100%, but it's also unsatisfactory in the extreme to have aliens that are simply acting without any explanation or spokesman. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::::I didn't say your aliens would communicate in English, I just meant that fighting a kaiju, sci-fi-wise, is about as good an idea as speaking to one (that's probably a statement on our own communication skills, eh). As for explaining alien motives clearly or at all, indeed much of it is a matter of personal preference and style, and could be debated/polished later, but I feel like using this opportunity to debate/decide just how much there would be to explain. If you allow for the possibility that a Diluvian is really an early Earth organism exalted through Daodan symbiosis, then that supposed hyper-evolution took it straight to a cosmic level of awareness -- bypassing any notion of emotion, language, religion, science, culture, etc. The way I see it, those things don't just have an inhuman mindset, they don't even have any animal instincts besides survival -- and it's those raw survival reflexes (paired with godlike power) that lead to WP xenoforming, Phase resurgence, etc. Thus maybe we can have them placid (mostly), and leave the invasions to someone else (like Screamers, or "giants from beyond the veil"?)? Also, for what it's worth, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbNqPEqLa7o HERE] is what I regard as a decent rendition of communication with a primitive yet sentient lifeform. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::You bring up good points about why it might have been a choice not to pump out large numbers of symbiotes from either the Syndicate or the TCTF, but it doesn't feel like the reason that the story is implying. Why is Muro stealing experimental gene surgery equipment? Why are only "secondary" symbiotes being created, unlike Muro and Mai? The impression one gets is that knowledge has indeed been lost (taken) by the absent Hasegawa. Kerr, of course, only absconded with Mai and the Chrysalis based off her DNA, and it's possible that he too is unable to replicate Hasegawa's research. Still, isn't it rather odd that neither Kerr nor the Syndicate have enough data, years later, to replicate Hasegawa's work? You may say that Muro is capable of doing so, but simply sees the creation of full-fledged symbiotes as too dangerous… but that's not what his STURMANDERUNG plan suggested: "11) Symbiote candidate selection and implantation". Muro was working on a way to elevate others to his level, otherwise who would even be left to work under him? So whatever happened before Oni starts that caused the loss of knowledge and ability regarding the Daodan, there's a major lacuna in the story here that has to be filled in Oni 2. Outside interference makes as much sense as a theory as anything else does. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::::First off, the STURMANDERUNG consoles are very, very badly written, from the funkily-indexed "plan for world domination" to the infamous "increase percentage", and finally Konoko's "monkey hacking". Now is as good a time as any to say that I'd probably rewrite it, and it will help if we can agree on the implications that we'd like to convey when and if that happens (because self-centered overstatement is a sin ^_^ ). Some of the most obvious things I'd fix: steps (4), (8) and (12) are missing, and (10) is the same as (6) -- carried over, possibly, and leading towards (14) -- whereas ACC sabotage starts as early as (1) and (2) and then ACCs are never mentioned until (13). More generally, the timeline of mountain-compound construction, ACC sabotage and satellite uplinking needs to be clarified -- at least to the point where those consoles don't look like something Hardy threw together at the last minute. And of course I'd try and expand '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' into something relatable. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::::Sorry to be the bearer of accurate canon, but "secondary symbiotes" are never mentioned in Oni. All we know is that Konoko is one of two<ref group=geyser>Strictly speaking, when the sci-goon says "You...you're the other prime symbiote!", this ''may'' imply -- even if a bit of a stretch -- that Konoko is merely the only prime symbiote ''outside the sci-goon's ordinary scope'', i.e., that there may be multiple ''familiar'' prime symbiotes at the Syndicate, but only one that has been grown over at the TCTF, and thus qualifies as an "other" (unfamiliar), or even (arguably) as a "''the'' other". Also, there may have been another prime symbiote at the Syndicate, but if he's dead-ish now (like, I dunno, from a broken neck), then that would leave only Muro as "the" prime symbiote, and Mai as "the (only) other".</ref> "prime symbiotes", as implied by [[Quotes/Speech#Is_that_a_yes?|THIS]] sci-goon and by the [[Quotes/Consoles#CHAPTER_12_._SINS_OF_THE_FATHER|Science Prison consoles]], where Konoko is labeled '''1B(h)''' -- likely because '''1A(h)''' (Muro's Chrysalis) was created first. We do not know what any of the other symbiotes are called -- "secondary" ("accessory"), "subsequent" ("post-prime"), "lesser" ("subprime"), "composite" ("reductible")... -- and we don't know a priori that "secondary" symbiotes are in any way inferior to "prime" ones. Maybe their only handicap with respect to a prime/emeritus symbiote such as Muro is that their Chrysalises were grown/implanted much later in time (and into grown adults) -- and therefore Muro, who has been working on his symbiosis for years, is confident that none of the later-implanted symbiotes will end up as a clear rival to him. In some aspects, later symbiotes may be ''more'' advanced if anything, as compared to prime/emeritus ones -- more stable, easier to implant and monitor (not needing to be implanted at a young age, and not requiring a dedicated scientific team to look after them 24/7). Developing a protocol that allows mass production and implantation of Chrysalises, without it becoming a QA/support nightmare -- that's more than enough justification for the many years of "post-prime" research that went into "Daodan core technology" (i.e., again, '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' -- whatever they are). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::::Speaking of "Daodan core technology", here's another real-time brainstorming idea<ref group=geyser>Actually, that's only half true: it feels like well-forgotten old stuff rather than 100% new brainstorming. When I elaborated on Barabas [[Barabas#Barabas_as_power_without_alienation|HERE]], I already brought up the "paradigm of controlled technology" and implied that new symbiotes (at least Barabas) may have been deliberately limited in their abilities, e.g., by installing a barrier/interface that keeps the Chrysalis from infiltrating the brain. However, at that point I hadn't given much thought to the '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' codes, and didn't read much into "Daodan core technology", either.</ref> that just might shed some light on what's going on. Remember how Barabas looks fairly close to Imago-as-we-know-it (livid and veiny, horns, funny eyes) and has superpowers, yet doesn't seem to go into overpower, and overall seems inferior to Mai (a tradeoff, it would seem, for remaining sane, articulate, and mostly human, despite a near-complete transformation)? The same can be said of Mukade, if we don't imply some outstanding "emeritus" status for him, and pretend that he's just "another Barabas": with his own set of superpowers, more formidable as a foe than Barabas -- but also, it would seem, less stable on the mental level (with animal pulsions, mad talk, etc), and still no match for Mai (assuming he didn't lose on purpose) and no sign of Daodan overpower. Now, could it be that the "Daodan core technology" is a ''follow-up'' to prime Daodan symbiosis, which takes care of the issues identified by Kerr's colleagues, and allows the implantation of a Chrysalis to an adult, with little risk of instability and virtually no need for advanced monitoring? In this view, the word "core" does not have the basic meaning of "let's develop some generic technology for the core/essence of that process/entity that we know as Daodan". Instead we're looking at a qualitatively new protocol for Daodan symbiosis -- one that involves a new device or concept called "core" (or "Daodan core") --, and it's this novel "core approach" to symbiosis that (7 - '''ssob''') and (9 - '''uwlb''') are about: they are experiments with adult hosts, whose transformation is constrained/restricted/directed in some way or other, as opposed to prime symbiotes for whom it is "bound to run free". One could assume, for simplicity, that '''uwlb''' (9) is Mukade (the more powerful of the two, but also a more deeply alienated freak) and '''ssob''' (7) is Barabas (a more stable version, even if somewhat weak-ass as compared to a "prime"). Together they pave the way for mass production -- not of Muro's peers (of course not), but of ''Barabases'' -- "stabilized"/"tamed"/"constrained" symbiotes, strong enough to survive in a toxic world, but not so strong as to challenge Muro's authority -- an ideal balance of muscle and loyalty. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::::Summing up, I don't see much in Oni canon to support the view that "11) Symbiote candidate selection and implantation" is about Muro trying to surround himself with "prime"-quality ''peer'' symbiotes (and failing for whatever reason, making do with "secondary" ones instead). Rather, whoever "sells his soul to [Muro] for a Chrysalis" (as Mai puts it) will get to be a '''"ssob"''' -- reassuringly stable mentally if not physically, even if somewhat limited with respect to Muro himself. From Muro's point of view, that's ideal, and -- judging by Barabas's devotion to Muro -- Muro's minions would have been quite content with "subprime" faculties. Closer allies may get to be '''"uwlb"'''s -- powerful in their own way, but still no match for Muro (supposedly). That of course leaves open the question of Hasegawa's whereabouts, whether he left and (if he did) how much damage he did by leaving. With the Diluvians added to the equation, an extra question would be whether they were "aware" of Muro's STURMANDERUNG and were trying to counteract it (at least the Daodan research part). My position regarding the latter is a bit like Laplace's when asked why God was never mentioned in his ''Mécanique celeste'': [[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#I_had_no_need_of_that_hypothesis|"I had no need of that hypothesis."]]<ref group=geyser>Even if Laplace didn't feel the need to mention God in his treatise about celestial bodies, he did mention a [[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#Laplace's_demon|demon]]. Unlike Maxwell's demon, Laplace's demon is huge, and is really God in disguise.</ref> --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::::P.S. I don't have backronyms ready for '''ssob''' and '''uwlb''' (and if we rewrite that part, then we can always pick our own acronyms), but I really think they're an important piece of the puzzle when it comes to understanding TITAN (whatever it is) and the STURMANDERUNG project as planned out by Muro. Spontaneous ideas that came to mind are "Stabilized Symbiosis / Organic Body" (Barabas) and "Unstable Within Liminal Bounds" (Mukade). I also haven't addressed the part where Muro is stealing experimental gene surgery equipment; I might finish rationalizing that soon. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::Your overall conjecture about their purpose in shifting the climate makes sense to me. If ocean acidification was a big problem for them in the P-Tr days (which I imagined was accidentally caused by them at the time), they would definitely have something to say about it now. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::Re: xenoforming, I definitely think that life (self-replicating machinery) is the best way to do this, rather than something as laborious as digging channels through the earth up into volcanoes, and pumping air produced by massive machinery. In real life, terraforming another planet via plant life would take many generations, but the Daodan's influence is my excuse for vastly speeding up the process. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::Paraphrasing what you said about the Wilderness earlier: it really ''is'' "cool glowy energy" - but ''whose''? :-) And yes, of course, there's nothing wrong with a lineup of "prime" and "subprime" symbiotes (even if I'd keep them to a minimum, to avoid banalizing the concept). Really I'm just brainstorming here, and I felt that the "dual symbiosis" idea was worth writing down. After all, if I can think like a madman on occasion, then I can always tone down and characterize "normal" people, but who's to say mad ideas won't serve for characterization as well? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::Here's another real-time idea: even if the "cool glowy energy" is merely an emanation of a symbiote's Chrysalis (and not an inflow of energy and information from the Phase), knocking out that aura would probably deal damage to the host/Chrysalis, or at least cut the overpower short. This, and the trivial interpretation of the aura as an EM field, means that a reasonable weapon/deterrent against symbiotes could be a good old EMP. At least it's worth trying -- with any luck it will leave Konoko over-power-less and vulnerable to melee and ballistic weapons (energy weapons would probably be knocked out by the EMP as well). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

:::"As long as that plant contained the Daodan, it doesn't matter if anything else did." As I said above, the similarities between Jamie's cellular breakdown and Daodan symbiosis are actually minor, and even Hasegawa's notion of a "poisonous world" doesn't quite describe the Wilderness as you see it (in my opinion), as well as Muro's "dead air and foul water". But, even if the bush was Daodan-enhanced, Hasegawa would want to know if it was just that one bush that was "poisonous", or that particular bush species, or, as he actually puts it, the whole "world outside the Atmospheric Processors". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

:::One thing that you're not making clear in your Wilderness theory is how it spread a lot at first, engulfing large areas, and then seemingly stopped. If Daodan symbiosis propagates upon contact, and each affected cell becomes a new source, then wouldn't the WCG need to build new rings of fences every week? Also, it it's so good at spreading-upon-contact, then wouldn't it have hit Hasegawa too? Airplanes flying over a Zone notice contamination in the air -- spores? pollen? -- and Hasegawa is down there breathing that stuff... And, for that matter, if it causes noticable contamination on aircraft then why hasn't airborne propagation caused generalized Daodanization yet? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::I think you're either overestimating how fast plants can spread, or underestimating the scale of the planet. If a few seeds can disperse like dandelion seeds and float over the fence from time to time, there's no reason why this immediately results in any sort of a crisis. Over the long term, sure, and that's what my Oni 2 is about. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::I think it's you who's underestimating how fast your own super-duper alien plants of doom can spread... In the initial concept, "a single seed is enough to corrupt a whole area", but then airborne seeds/spores/pollen are allowed to cross fences (how often would that happen? how about ''daily''?) and somehow it doesn't defeat the purpose of said fences? What the blam? I'm not complaining, especially since I know the issue is easily fixed by assuming vegetative reproduction, but it's strange to see a potent bio-threat that stays confined mainly because the writer doesn't need it yet. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::It may seem naive of the WCG to think they can contain the Wilderness, but they might know full well that it's a losing battle. They also are taking steps to contain the growing Wilderness, but clearly they're losing since the toxins in the air are increasing, according to Oni. Also, to whatever degree they're wrong about how well they have it contained, that's our way of adding some drama to the story. Finding out that the trophic level of the Wilderness is advancing to herbivores, insectivores, and then carnivores will be an alarming development. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::The [[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Secondary_Stage|increasing air toxicity]] is one of the most ambiguous parts of Oni canon. Not only does it involve the infamous "36.18% increase" of Dioxin levels, but it seemingly presents the toxin rise as a consequence of Muro's retrofitting of the ACCs. At no point are the WPs stated as a prominent source of airborne toxins in Oni's world: all we have is "biological contamination" encountered during flyovers, and the uncanny "virus" from Jamie's bush. Of course it doesn't mean that toxins don't emanate from the Contaminated Zones at all, but it doesn't establish the WPs as the planet's "toxic lungs", either. If anything, I'd blame a WCG-era toxin rise (pre-Muro) on imperfect waste processing procedures at the ACCs. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::To be clear, Griffin's team is interested in Konoko, how she functions, and how to contain her. They're a police force, basically. You'd have to talk to someone much higher up to see what they know about the Wilderness. Your suggestion is certainly a decent one, that the true nature of the wildlife in the Preserves is not known. After all, if people commonly knew where the Daodan came from, Hasegawa's work would be more easily replicable. But perhaps he never shared that with anyone, or perhaps just his brother-in-law, who kept the secret. There's honestly little reason for the alien nature of the Wilderness to come up in Oni, as big of a deal as it may be. Yes, you'd think BWest would have made sure to mention it in a console somewhere as a natural part of their world-building, but no matter what we can't deny that there's some kind of big gap in Oni's story. This is just my proposal for filling it. It's entirely possible that hardly anyone in Oni's world realized that the alien life was alien until after the game ended. After all, if it's really life from Earth's past, then it's not *that* alien to begin with. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::Thanks for clarifying, but I think you may be seeing big gaps that aren't there, because -- as a writer -- you ''need'' a gap that you can fill with something ''big'' and proprietary (perhaps not unlike my TNZ, in all fairness). I'll take "no" as an answer (because I fully understand that this is getting out of proportion), but can you elaborate on "no matter what, we can't deny that there's some kind of big gap in Oni's story"? If you can clearly summarize what you mean by "some kind of big gap", then I'll be happy to try and "can-deny" it, just to help you relativize. We already know that I granted you the Diluvians (broadly), so I think we'll be fine ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::Specifically on what you said up there: indeed Griffin's "pet doctors" wouldn't be able to just go and google up Wilderness lifeforms from their Science Prison quarters. On the other hand, prisoners can't blab, so if there's any classified knowledge that can help in analyzing the Daodan, then there's nothing that's keeping the Directorate from sharing that information with Griffin's science team. However, if we adopt BGI as an important faction and the WCG's true response to Muro and STURMANDERUNG, then perhaps there isn't much interest in Daodan development at all -- Kerr&Co are supposed to cautiously experiment with Konoko, and then BGI will just crush Muro and the Strikers, shutting down STURMANDERUNG and leaving Griffin with no reason to keep Konoko alive. If that's what the WCG's game is, then indeed it makes sense if Daodan scientists are left in the black about the alien/Daodan nature of the Wilderness. And of course all of that is moot if no one at the time of Oni's events is actually aware of the subtle Daodan influence on WP plants, let alone of Diluvians being the source of that influence. The best kept secrets are ones that ''no one'' knows about. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::As for whether Hasegawa and Kerr knew the truth -- I feel like we haven't even started debating how much those 2001 Bungie-made characters ''should'' have known about all that Diluvian business that ''we'' made up eons later ^_^ In my view, if you scrap the Diluvians ([[wp:Pierre-Simon_Laplace#I_had_no_need_of_that_hypothesis|Laplace-]] and [[wp:Occam's_razor|Occam]]-style), then there doesn't need to be ''any'' link or similarity ''at all'' between Hasegawa's Chrysalis research and the virulent pathogens from the Contaminated Zones (whether they're poisonous bushes, pools of goo, WMD payloads, etc) -- well, no link apart from how the Contaminated Zones have an ample store of threats that the Chrysalis is supposed to counter. If that's what the Wilderness is (nothing ''too'' special), then Hasegawa merely regards it as a versatile repository of "stress or harm" (and incidentally "the nightmare that killed Jamie", hence his quest for a palliative). If, however, some of the flora in the Zones ''is'' phase-enhanced, then it's something that Hasegawa may have identified during his preliminary research -- after which he would have naturally tried to emulate some of those symbiotic properties in his own experiments (like synthetic cell-sized organelles that allow a Daodan entity to "stay online" after a first contact with a human host). Whichever it is, and whether an ancient race of symbiotes has anything to do with it, I think we both agree that the Daodan entities that exalted Konoko and Muro are two distinct phase entities, and also quite distinct from the entity/entities that may be influencing WP flora through phase-induced mutation. Therefore it might make sense that neither Hasegawa not Kerr&Co have actually drawn much of a connection. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

::::::I'd actually like to back up to a higher level and address what I think is your largest single question, which is, "Why complicate things when it's clear that Hardy just intended the Preserves to be waste dumps?" I felt it was necessary to diverge from this approach precisely because of the derivative feeling of the "social commentary". Industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada. Been there, done that dystopia. Likewise, if Oni's world was said to be warming dangerously, I would find some way to subvert that narrative into a more interesting, less "concern of the moment" type of problem. Star Trek IV was entertaining but nowadays nobody has any idea what it's going on about with all that whale stuff. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::Well, alien-engineered global warming sure would come in handy if it made Earth more "waterworldy". I may be getting it wrong, but your Daomen/Diluvians would actually be at home in a world with no icecaps and a significantly higher ocean level. It's still be a reference to the modern-day issue of global warming, but with an alien-initiative twist that could possibly act as a redeeming factor (if done right of course). As for Hardy's take on pollution, I think that there's not a lot to diverge from, actually, because canon Oni is no longer hammering it home as "industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada". Jamie was killed by an unidentified "virus", there are mad scientists doing ghastly stuff (Navarre), bioweapons are hinted at in the manual, and Phase tech can "enhance" man-made pestilence further, power-of-seven-fold if needed. So it's not like WPs are pure eco-activist cliché and can only be redeemed through alien ingerence. At least that's how I feel about it. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:18, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::Also, if there's one thing I don't want to repeat in a sequel, it's the "no one left to trust" angle. That's been done quite thoroughly by the end of the first game. That's why one of my themes for Oni 2 was going to be finding someone that Mai *can* trust, as well as learning how to trust again. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::Hm. I wouldn't give Mai (m)any friends, except if it's an actual sister soul ([[Oni2:Hikari|Hikari]]), maybe [[Oni2:Zerda|Zerda]] because she's young and optimistic. The only strong allies would be temporary and/or perverted ones (like [[Oni2:Big|Big]], or Mai's inner Muro-sensei). But it wouldn't be a grey and hopeless sea of distrust, either, that's for sure. After all, even in Oni, after Kerr is dead and everything has seemingly gone to hell, Mai still seems to have a couple of [[Quotes/Speech#Friends|FRIENDS]] left at the TCTF (people who ''knew'' about her imminent "Phoenix Rising" attack, provided her with goodies, ''and didn't tell Griffin''). So, so much for "no one left". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::The antagonist in "my" Oni 2 would have been the deeply alienated head of the META technocracy (best seen as a "collective Mukade"). Very broadly, META is a Daodan-enhanced government, forcing hyperevolutionary paradigm shifts on post-Oni society and essentially xenoforming civilization itself (rather than the biosphere's lower lifeforms). The natural resistance to this process is embodied by Phoenix folks (in the same way as Konoko's mind and body resist the hyperevolutionary alienation brought about by her Chrysalis). This is the basic concept of host-Chrysalis "symbiosis" (actually a struggle on the verge of insanity and alienation), transposed from the level of an individual to that of civilization as a whole. I've always thought of it as fairly straightforward and having enough plot-driving potential (once the initially underpowered protagonist reveals herself as a Daodan symbiote, she'll become an enemy both for META and for most of her Phoenix buddies). As for the ultimate goal for META's hyperevolution -- there doesn't have to be any, but if tropes must be, then either META is "good" and intends to avert a "clash of two worlds" kind of threat -- like the Diluvians waking up and/or phase portals opening all over the place (with water and/or Screamers and/or furry zerglings pouring through), or a good old comet or asteroid headed our way... Or, META is "evil", performing an increasingly unfathomable alienation of humanity, with little regard for those old-school humans who (like Phoenix - and Konoko?) are not welcoming such a transition. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::See my comments above on my preference for a more concrete story. There's nothing wrong with an alienated techno-hegemon, but if he's the only villain in the story, it feels a bit world-weary for me. I want a sense of urgency and visceral danger in Oni 2. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKiayHSR4DI World-weary], yes (oh yes!), but if he sends [[:Image:Duality_concept_(symbiote_in_overpower%3F).jpg|THESE]] after you, then you'll still be in more than enough visceral danger, trust me -- and that's only part of what META has in store. Also please don't ignore what I said above about how META could be "good" and merely building up strength to counter greater threats (Diluvians/Screamers/whatever) -- it's all there in my iteration, so don't act like it isn't. And of course the Phoenix faction would be Mai's more or less radical enemy (once it becomes clear that she's "one of [[:Image:Duality_concept_(symbiote_in_overpower%3F).jpg|THEM]]"), and multiple other factions would either pre-exist or split off from META and Phoenix, following Mai's/META's actions and/or a parallel evolution of the Diluvian/Phase threat. If that's not potential for a concrete story with urgency and such, then I don't know what is. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::P.S. Here I was, looking into [[wp:Ediacaran biota|Ediacaran biota]] and the [[wp:Hallucigenia|Cambrian explosion]] (musing on possible Diluvian candidates), and then it hit me: tectonics! There is actually a major problem with the Diluvians going into a deep stasis following the P-Tr extinction event, and regaining consciousness only 250+ Ma later. As it is, plate tectonics have either subducted or elevated the entirety of the pre-Triassic seabed (Panthalassa), so either way the Diluvians would have gone from dormant to extinct long before they'd have had a chance to "stir up trouble" in 2000 AD. The only way to resolve this is to imply that, in the meantime, the Diluvians haven't just been "stirring in their sleep" to make adjustments to the biosphere; they must also have had a cycle where they'd wake up and relocate -- away from subduction trenches and towards oceanic rifts. During such "sleepwalking" events they'd probably be even more phase-active than while "stirring", triggering episodes of high "phase presence", along with evolutionary explosions. The emergence of phase phenomena prior to Oni's events, and the possible alienation of Wilderness Preserves can be part of such an event -- a mere side effect of Diluvian migration along the ocean floor, rather than a "deliberate" xenoforming, let alone a means to an "invasion". It will still be ominous, of course, but rather because of the wide range of phase hazards (and alienating mutations) that the otherwise placid creatures are causing to appear. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:58, 30 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::::Not a bad suggestion about the aliens' occasional stirrings leading to an increase in phase activity. I was aware of the issue with ocean floor subduction (see [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Story]] and search for "ocean floor"). I considered it a positive, as even if there was an alien civilization down there at the time of the P-Tr boundary, it would be buried by now, thus explaining why we haven't noticed its ruins. In fact, rather than our needing to explain how all the aliens could still be alive, the continual overturning of the ocean floor could actually explain why there are so few of them left, as I desired to be the case in my story. Perhaps only some of their sleep chambers have stayed out of trouble and survived this long. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::My point above is that ''all'' of Panthalassa's seabed has been buried in sediment and either subducted and molten, or exposed and eroded. So if they were indeed a civilization of builders -- as opposed to primitive organisms (my suggestion) --, then, on one hand, some of their architecture ''might'' have been preserved to some extent along with Silurian/Devonian/Carboniferous/Permian fossils, and that's also where we'd find "sleep chambers" if there were any -- in ruins or fossilized (depending on whether the chambers are organic or not) -- and their occupants. Maybe those chambers that weren't subducted (and ended up in fossil layers) were made of phase-enhanced concrete and steel, and thus a few Diluvians may still be able to break free, say, from [[wp:Alnif|Alnif]] (which hosts fossils of trilobites from the Cambrian all the way to the late Permian). On the other hand, no matter how you look at it, if a once great civilization went so far as to build sleep chambers that would carry them through the ages, so that they could roam the Earth once more -- and then most of them were crushed by tectonics -- that would be a rather [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw silly way to go] for those who didn't make it. Would it not? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::::My take on this (which redeems the Diluvians' godlike intellect, if anything) is that perhaps they wouldn't have any "chambers" (there's nothing wrong with lying low on the ocean floor, with a bit of sediment on top), and that they'd have instinctive alarm calls that would periodically wake them up when a subduction or a shallowing is imminent (or when the ocean's acidity becomes critical and such), which would allow them to react and/or relocate. This implies that they'd have cycles of long stasis and brief awareness, which (if we assume "Phase activity" to be a side effect of Diluvian activity) may coincide with some of the more enigmatic evolutionary explosions and extinctions (P-Tr being only one of those). Not having chambers (or architecture), they'd be free to relocate to anywhere on the ocean floor, as long as it's far enough from a subduction zone. As primitive beings hyperevolved from Cambrian/Ediacaran biota, they'd be mostly soft-bodied, but possibly with a carapace made of rock and sediment (not unlike [[wp:Caddisfly#Underwater_architects|Caddisfly larvae]]). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:48, 5 July 2020 (CEST)

===Daodan Genesis===

:::::::Try searching for a sentence from those pages and you will see (I think it's just that "User:" and "User_talk:" are not search-indexed in general). It's totally OK if you don't care about the public visibility of those pages. It's just that I had the same semi-private attitude about this TNZ page in its current form -- my explanation thereof wasn't good enough to prevent a hasty cat from you, and that's fine too, I guess. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 00:46, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::Apologies for any miscommunication we seem to have had. My assumption was that anything placed in a main namespace such as Oni2: was fodder for public commentary, and anything under User: was private ramblings, unless otherwise labeled. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

==Notes==

===Canon quotes===