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:::::::::::::::::::::::Nice try, but (see above) I wouldn't expect Griffin and his Daodan scientists to play along. If the wretches know the truth, then TCTF command will, too, Griffin included.  If there is permanent containment activity around the WPs, then you can no longer pretend that "You'd have to talk to someone much higher up to see what they know about the Wilderness." -- so maybe it's better if it ''doesn't'' take that much to contain the Wilderness at the time of Oni's events. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::::::::::Nice try, but (see above) I wouldn't expect Griffin and his Daodan scientists to play along. If the wretches know the truth, then TCTF command will, too, Griffin included.  If there is permanent containment activity around the WPs, then you can no longer pretend that "You'd have to talk to someone much higher up to see what they know about the Wilderness." -- so maybe it's better if it ''doesn't'' take that much to contain the Wilderness at the time of Oni's events. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::::::::::::::I think you're consistently and massively over-estimating the scope of TCTF. As their name indicates, they're concerned with stopping tech-related crimes (a corollary to Aramaki's Section 9). Whatever's happening in the Wilderness Preserves is of no concern to them. Griffin may take some personal interest in this subject, due to the Chrysalis that's in his possession, but he's basically just a precinct chief over some local cops. There's no reason to think that he has any special information on the BioCrisis. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:16, 31 July 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::::::::::::::I think you're consistently and massively over-estimating the scope of TCTF. As their name indicates, they're concerned with stopping tech-related crimes (a corollary to Aramaki's Section 9). Whatever's happening in the Wilderness Preserves is of no concern to them. Griffin may take some personal interest in this subject, due to the Chrysalis that's in his possession, but he's basically just a precinct chief over some local cops. There's no reason to think that he has any special information on the BioCrisis. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:16, 31 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::::::::::::You said it yourself. "Just a precint chief over some local cops" may have aptly described Griffin and his division a couple of decades back, but at the time of Oni's events he has put himself in charge of a Daodan-enhanced "creature". Unless he isn't really trying all that hard to get an edge on Muro, I see no reason for him ''not'' to know everything there is to know. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 01:08, 1 August 2020 (CEST) 
::::::::::::::::::::::::That being said, one possibility we could go with is that the Wilderness was indeed not spreading quickly as of the time of Oni. Perhaps it only begins growing rapidly as of Oni 2, which turns out to be caused by the creation of new Daodan hosts (following on my notion that all Daodan-boosted life is tied together in a worldwide web of phase-transferred energy and information). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:16, 31 July 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::::::::::::::That being said, one possibility we could go with is that the Wilderness was indeed not spreading quickly as of the time of Oni. Perhaps it only begins growing rapidly as of Oni 2, which turns out to be caused by the creation of new Daodan hosts (following on my notion that all Daodan-boosted life is tied together in a worldwide web of phase-transferred energy and information). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:16, 31 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::::::::::::Yes, that's a more believable premise - that Griffin is good-willing, but there is nothing dramatic to know about the WPs, or it's so subtle that it can be covered up by a higher-level task force (perhaps WCG may have hired some kind of proto-BGI for that kind of work, too, not just for assassinations and such). The manual's reclamation teams (if any) would then be relegated to the immediate vicinity of the ACC-protected cities, as discussed earlier (and as implied by the manual's text). As for the "worldwide web of phase-transferred energy and information" -- I am making note of it for later; FWIW I'd rather blame increased Phase/Daodan presence on Diluvian stirring/awakening rather than on a banalization of human-Daodan symbiosis, but we shall see. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 01:08, 1 August 2020 (CEST) 
:::::::::::::::::::::Let me re-state my position re: the "actual" Wilderness threat as you envision it "during Oni 2": with daodanimals pointing their noses, and insect swarms ''finally'' joining the airborne seeding fun, Nausicaa-style (sorry, but the analogy with the modus propagandi of the Sea of Corruption is too exact to overlook). I understand that your story ultimately presents it all as ''the'' threat faced by the protagonist and by humanity in general, but in my impression, such a development would work best if it's one of ''several'' major concerns. Phase hazards, META issues (civilization alienated from within/above, rather than "evicted" by alienated flora/fauna) and belligerent human factions -- those are just a few things that could shift the focus from WPs back to urban areas time and again. My feeling is that it would ensure some variety and keep the plot from being dominated by a Wilderness fetish that's too "green" and (yes, sorry) Nausicaa-like. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 03:32, 30 July 2020 (CEST)  
:::::::::::::::::::::Let me re-state my position re: the "actual" Wilderness threat as you envision it "during Oni 2": with daodanimals pointing their noses, and insect swarms ''finally'' joining the airborne seeding fun, Nausicaa-style (sorry, but the analogy with the modus propagandi of the Sea of Corruption is too exact to overlook). I understand that your story ultimately presents it all as ''the'' threat faced by the protagonist and by humanity in general, but in my impression, such a development would work best if it's one of ''several'' major concerns. Phase hazards, META issues (civilization alienated from within/above, rather than "evicted" by alienated flora/fauna) and belligerent human factions -- those are just a few things that could shift the focus from WPs back to urban areas time and again. My feeling is that it would ensure some variety and keep the plot from being dominated by a Wilderness fetish that's too "green" and (yes, sorry) Nausicaa-like. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 03:32, 30 July 2020 (CEST)  
::::::::::::::::::::::Too many threats. Unless you plan to join some of them with a common root that the good guys can attack. Otherwise you've just produced a [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld Crapsack World] that no one can do anything about and that players don't want to live in. But to be clear, I never suggested making the whole game about fighting the Wilderness. Then it would be called Reclamation Wretches, and that's a totally different game ("Press X to customize your flamethrower…"). For my ideas on other aspects of the story besides dealing with the Wilderness, see the [[Oni2:Slaves of War/Factions|Factions]] page. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 17:22, 30 July 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::::::::::::Too many threats. Unless you plan to join some of them with a common root that the good guys can attack. Otherwise you've just produced a [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld Crapsack World] that no one can do anything about and that players don't want to live in. But to be clear, I never suggested making the whole game about fighting the Wilderness. Then it would be called Reclamation Wretches, and that's a totally different game ("Press X to customize your flamethrower…"). For my ideas on other aspects of the story besides dealing with the Wilderness, see the [[Oni2:Slaves of War/Factions|Factions]] page. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 17:22, 30 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::::::::::It doesn't work like this. A single overpowered threat can easily give you crapsack syndrome -- and, conversely, multiple well-balanced threats can make for a thrilling experience where you never know what awaits you around the corner: humans with guns, a swarm of hungry Screamers, a hulking META-mech, a couple of [[:Image:Duality_concept_(symbiote_in_overpower?).jpg|these]] merry fellows, or Mukade knows what else. Of course the player needs to have enough skills to survive every such encounter, and it helps if the story lets him bring closure to at least some of the threats. And I do acknowledge that your Oni 2 wouldn't have been entirely Wilderness-centered (we've been through this before). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::::::::::It doesn't work like this. A single overpowered threat can easily give you crapsack syndrome -- and, conversely, multiple well-balanced threats can make for a thrilling experience where you never know what awaits you around the corner: humans with guns, a swarm of hungry Screamers, a hulking META-mech, a couple of [[:Image:Duality_concept_(symbiote_in_overpower?).jpg|these]] merry fellows, or Mukade knows what else. Of course the player needs to have enough skills to survive every such encounter, and it helps if the story lets him bring closure to at least some of the threats. And I do acknowledge that your Oni 2 wouldn't have been entirely Wilderness-centered (we've been through this before). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::::::::::::::I suppose you're right that a Crapsack World can have a single cause. "1984" comes to mind, with its [https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Op OP] government surveillance. My objection to multiple factions is that there should be a root cause behind whatever bad we're adding to the world. Otherwise the story feels disjointed and the problems insurmountable (how many different evils do we have to fight?!), having a burdensome effect on the player's psyche. In SoW, all the factions and problems that exist in Oni's world but not ours relate to the Daodan and phase technology, which themselves are also linked. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:16, 31 July 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::::::::::::::I suppose you're right that a Crapsack World can have a single cause. "1984" comes to mind, with its [https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Op OP] government surveillance. My objection to multiple factions is that there should be a root cause behind whatever bad we're adding to the world. Otherwise the story feels disjointed and the problems insurmountable (how many different evils do we have to fight?!), having a burdensome effect on the player's psyche. In SoW, all the factions and problems that exist in Oni's world but not ours relate to the Daodan and phase technology, which themselves are also linked. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:16, 31 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::::::::::::I could argue that you can't hinge all the factions and their motivations on a single "root cause", or it will look artificial as hell, like you're writing a large novel off a premise that would be more suitable for a short story. Even so, I don't think we disagree. "Everything is connected." Even if some guy/girl lost their family in the Cataclysm and vows revenge against Konoko (and turns evil bcause of that), that would qualify as Daodan/Phase/Diluvian-based too, I guess. Then again, I am sure there are plenty of games that present the player with "many different evils" without that being a problem. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 01:08, 1 August 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::::::Secondly, you're reading the manual's sentence too literally. The poor people who can't live within an ACC's main area of effect live in something like a shantytown outside city limits. The job that some of them have is going to work every day fighting against the spread of the BioCrisis. That doesn't mean the Wilderness is right outside the cities. It just means that they have a rough job and that they live on the edge of the habitable zone. I'm sure that "and" was really meant there. What the sentence doesn't tell us how far they commute to work each day. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 22:09, 27 July 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::::::Secondly, you're reading the manual's sentence too literally. The poor people who can't live within an ACC's main area of effect live in something like a shantytown outside city limits. The job that some of them have is going to work every day fighting against the spread of the BioCrisis. That doesn't mean the Wilderness is right outside the cities. It just means that they have a rough job and that they live on the edge of the habitable zone. I'm sure that "and" was really meant there. What the sentence doesn't tell us how far they commute to work each day. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 22:09, 27 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::::Off-road commuting for hundreds of miles has to be the worst job ever, indeed. Your point is clear, and I don't think there is any radical disagreement here (if anything, I said there's some welcome food for thought). However, like for the airborne spreading, it all boils down to quantitative considerations VS qualitative ones. I am a scientist at heart and by trade, so yeah, I tend to: a) read that kind of stuff literally; b) favor basic logic and math over figures of speech. On the face of it, the manual says that there are people living at the edge of atmospheric-processed areas, with "dead air and foul water" right next door: settle any further out, and the toxic air/water will start causing gruesome diseases and birth defects (that's just what the "edge of the habitable zone" is, by definition). Seen that way, it makes total sense for the "reclamation teams" to be hard at work right outside the shantytowns, "beating back" the limits of their ''own'' habitat (as well as helping to preserve the air quality in an ACC's "main area of effect"). That said, if the actual source of the contamination is identified as being located far outside the city limits, rather than adjacent to the slums, then indeed it makes sense to have "commuters" who wander towards the Wilderness Preserves and stamp out whatever is causing the toxicity to spread (although I am not sure the term "reclamation teams" would be fitting for this kind of task -- they'd be more like "excisors", "surgeons", "foresters" or, yes, "stalkers"). My key point, if I may reiterate it, is that, if this latter "stalking" occupation is even more precarious than that of the reclamation teams (the ones that merely decontaminate the areas around the slums that they live in), then -- as I already said -- this supposed WPTF comes across as much more humble than the dignified TCTF (despite a supposedly comparable importance of the two initiatives), and it may not fit in too well with the idea that there's this big high-level conspiracy surrounding the Wilderness. It can work, but it will require some new statements: about the WCG's penal system, about the not-so-free circulation of people or information between the inner cities and the slums, etc. If, on the other hand, the Wilderness expands only marginally (vegetative reproduction?), and there is no need for daily monitoring by a "WPTF" (precarious or otherwise), then the sentence from the manual is just about "reclamation teams" that are decontaminating areas right outside the slums, and that's it. It can work either way, and I don't feel like I'm closing any doors at this point. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 17:09, 28 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::::Off-road commuting for hundreds of miles has to be the worst job ever, indeed. Your point is clear, and I don't think there is any radical disagreement here (if anything, I said there's some welcome food for thought). However, like for the airborne spreading, it all boils down to quantitative considerations VS qualitative ones. I am a scientist at heart and by trade, so yeah, I tend to: a) read that kind of stuff literally; b) favor basic logic and math over figures of speech. On the face of it, the manual says that there are people living at the edge of atmospheric-processed areas, with "dead air and foul water" right next door: settle any further out, and the toxic air/water will start causing gruesome diseases and birth defects (that's just what the "edge of the habitable zone" is, by definition). Seen that way, it makes total sense for the "reclamation teams" to be hard at work right outside the shantytowns, "beating back" the limits of their ''own'' habitat (as well as helping to preserve the air quality in an ACC's "main area of effect"). That said, if the actual source of the contamination is identified as being located far outside the city limits, rather than adjacent to the slums, then indeed it makes sense to have "commuters" who wander towards the Wilderness Preserves and stamp out whatever is causing the toxicity to spread (although I am not sure the term "reclamation teams" would be fitting for this kind of task -- they'd be more like "excisors", "surgeons", "foresters" or, yes, "stalkers"). My key point, if I may reiterate it, is that, if this latter "stalking" occupation is even more precarious than that of the reclamation teams (the ones that merely decontaminate the areas around the slums that they live in), then -- as I already said -- this supposed WPTF comes across as much more humble than the dignified TCTF (despite a supposedly comparable importance of the two initiatives), and it may not fit in too well with the idea that there's this big high-level conspiracy surrounding the Wilderness. It can work, but it will require some new statements: about the WCG's penal system, about the not-so-free circulation of people or information between the inner cities and the slums, etc. If, on the other hand, the Wilderness expands only marginally (vegetative reproduction?), and there is no need for daily monitoring by a "WPTF" (precarious or otherwise), then the sentence from the manual is just about "reclamation teams" that are decontaminating areas right outside the slums, and that's it. It can work either way, and I don't feel like I'm closing any doors at this point. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 17:09, 28 July 2020 (CEST)
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:::::::::::::::::::::::Unfortunately "Backstory" comes across as SoW's backstory rather than Oni's: it opens with the sound hypothesis of alternate history, but then latches onto the "too fast" pacing of Hasegawa's project and veers towards xenoforming. In my approach (wait for it) I at least give Oni a chance to "explain itself" without calling aliens to the rescue right away. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::::::::::Unfortunately "Backstory" comes across as SoW's backstory rather than Oni's: it opens with the sound hypothesis of alternate history, but then latches onto the "too fast" pacing of Hasegawa's project and veers towards xenoforming. In my approach (wait for it) I at least give Oni a chance to "explain itself" without calling aliens to the rescue right away. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::::::::::::::I think you seem to have forgotten your own theory that the Daodan aura is intelligent :-p  We're all trying to explain certain "x" factors in the story as best we can. Considering the existence of Screaming Cells and super-intelligent "cancer", I don't think it's going much further to invoke alien intelligence. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:16, 31 July 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::::::::::::::I think you seem to have forgotten your own theory that the Daodan aura is intelligent :-p  We're all trying to explain certain "x" factors in the story as best we can. Considering the existence of Screaming Cells and super-intelligent "cancer", I don't think it's going much further to invoke alien intelligence. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:16, 31 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::::::::::::The difference is that it's Oni's scientists who are wishing they could "communicate with the Chrysalis directly", not me. And at the core I am not reading anything human-relatable into that intelligence (such as invasion plans). I am quite satisfied with the empirical characterization of that thing (as "smart cancer"), and leave disambiguation for later. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 01:08, 1 August 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::It may seem naive of the WCG to think they can contain the Wilderness, but they might know full well that it's a losing battle. They also are taking steps to contain the growing Wilderness, but clearly they're losing since the toxins in the air are increasing, according to Oni. Also, to whatever degree they're wrong about how well they have it contained, that's our way of adding some drama to the story. Finding out that the trophic level of the Wilderness is advancing to herbivores, insectivores, and then carnivores will be an alarming development. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::It may seem naive of the WCG to think they can contain the Wilderness, but they might know full well that it's a losing battle. They also are taking steps to contain the growing Wilderness, but clearly they're losing since the toxins in the air are increasing, according to Oni. Also, to whatever degree they're wrong about how well they have it contained, that's our way of adding some drama to the story. Finding out that the trophic level of the Wilderness is advancing to herbivores, insectivores, and then carnivores will be an alarming development. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::The [[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Secondary_Stage|increasing air toxicity]] is one of the most ambiguous parts of Oni canon. Not only does it involve the infamous "36.18% increase" of Dioxin levels, but it seemingly presents the toxin rise as a consequence of Muro's retrofitting of the ACCs. At no point are the WPs stated as a prominent source of airborne toxins in Oni's world: all we have is "biological contamination" encountered during flyovers, and the uncanny "virus" from Jamie's bush. Of course it doesn't mean that toxins don't emanate from the Contaminated Zones at all, but it doesn't establish the WPs as the planet's "toxic lungs", either. If anything, I'd blame a WCG-era toxin rise (pre-Muro) on imperfect waste processing procedures at the ACCs. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::The [[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Secondary_Stage|increasing air toxicity]] is one of the most ambiguous parts of Oni canon. Not only does it involve the infamous "36.18% increase" of Dioxin levels, but it seemingly presents the toxin rise as a consequence of Muro's retrofitting of the ACCs. At no point are the WPs stated as a prominent source of airborne toxins in Oni's world: all we have is "biological contamination" encountered during flyovers, and the uncanny "virus" from Jamie's bush. Of course it doesn't mean that toxins don't emanate from the Contaminated Zones at all, but it doesn't establish the WPs as the planet's "toxic lungs", either. If anything, I'd blame a WCG-era toxin rise (pre-Muro) on imperfect waste processing procedures at the ACCs. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
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:::::::::::::::::In the right proportion, and given enough good will and on-the-same-page-ness, these discussions don't have to confiscate any more of our lives than, say, Discord chat. And it would be project-oriented of course. We'd fill in gaps with specific Oni mods and sequels in mind, so supposedly that would make it all better -- and even failing that, it would feed back into wiki maintenance, by consolidating "Added Value" and factual sections all over the place. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::::In the right proportion, and given enough good will and on-the-same-page-ness, these discussions don't have to confiscate any more of our lives than, say, Discord chat. And it would be project-oriented of course. We'd fill in gaps with specific Oni mods and sequels in mind, so supposedly that would make it all better -- and even failing that, it would feed back into wiki maintenance, by consolidating "Added Value" and factual sections all over the place. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::::::::The problem for me is that any lengthy chat, on Discord or here, delays the projects I'm working on. The same must be true for you. Those projects have a lot more immediate value to the community than a game which we have no roadmap to actually producing. I'm just trying to be practical here. An hour spent editing this page delays the release of some project by an hour, and hours quickly turn to days since we're just working in our free time here. I simply can't justify doing this again if I'm going to hold to the schedule I've set for myself for 2020. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:16, 31 July 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::::::::The problem for me is that any lengthy chat, on Discord or here, delays the projects I'm working on. The same must be true for you. Those projects have a lot more immediate value to the community than a game which we have no roadmap to actually producing. I'm just trying to be practical here. An hour spent editing this page delays the release of some project by an hour, and hours quickly turn to days since we're just working in our free time here. I simply can't justify doing this again if I'm going to hold to the schedule I've set for myself for 2020. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 18:16, 31 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::::::Of course you are right about prioritization issues and how tangible achievements (modding and such) should take precedence over "Oni 2" musings. I know exactly how you feel, hours turning to days and all. However, you are wrong in that this is actually ''not'' about Oni 2. It is about our common understanding of Oni 1: at the most, its hypothetical consolidation as a big mod (adding a BGI faction, correcting the known goofs, disambiguating some things, hinting at some more fanon here and there); at the least, a consolidated wiki with a solid-looking canon instead of 343 competing interpretations floating around. Oni 2 is a big "when and if", I'll grant you that, but being on the same page about Oni's elements has many tangible applications nonetheless. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 01:08, 1 August 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::::Allow me to detrivialize Barabas a bit. My impression is that it isn't so much Muro who kicked Barabas's ass (well, maybe he did a little bit at some point, just to remind everyone who's boss), as it's Barabas who had to climb over other candidates' bodies to establish himself as Muro's ultimate pet. Muro made sure that Barabas would be "ready for anything" (well, almost anything) by putting him through hellish challenges, and possibly this included sparring against peers with similar aspirations. One of these challengers very nearly killed Barabas -- or maybe it was Barabas who challenged and killed the previous title holder, and is now expected to remember how "there is always someone stronger", as well as "the consequences of failure". Something like that. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::::Allow me to detrivialize Barabas a bit. My impression is that it isn't so much Muro who kicked Barabas's ass (well, maybe he did a little bit at some point, just to remind everyone who's boss), as it's Barabas who had to climb over other candidates' bodies to establish himself as Muro's ultimate pet. Muro made sure that Barabas would be "ready for anything" (well, almost anything) by putting him through hellish challenges, and possibly this included sparring against peers with similar aspirations. One of these challengers very nearly killed Barabas -- or maybe it was Barabas who challenged and killed the previous title holder, and is now expected to remember how "there is always someone stronger", as well as "the consequences of failure". Something like that. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::::I also beg to differ about how both Mukade and Barabas are "clearly" less stable and capable than primes, and how this necessarily hinges on Hasegawa backing out of the project. Mukade may be less stable, and Barabas may be less capable, but they're different animals -- different prototypes exploring different approaches to mass-produced Chrysalises (something Hasegawa and Kerr hadn't even started getting into!). Muro&Co are learning from these prototypes and making decisions about where to go from there. My impression (again) is that Muro would be perfectly OK with Barabas-grade minions, and in that sense there is nothing wrong with "secondary" ending up weaker than "prime". As for Mukade, he's a freak but he ain't weak, and Muro can absolutely ''not'' afford (my impression) to surround himself with Mukade-grade secondaries. As for why Muro ended up keeping Mukade around, and even entrusted him with a whole Ninja army... that's [http://geyser.oni2.net/pics/avatars/himagain.png another story]. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::::I also beg to differ about how both Mukade and Barabas are "clearly" less stable and capable than primes, and how this necessarily hinges on Hasegawa backing out of the project. Mukade may be less stable, and Barabas may be less capable, but they're different animals -- different prototypes exploring different approaches to mass-produced Chrysalises (something Hasegawa and Kerr hadn't even started getting into!). Muro&Co are learning from these prototypes and making decisions about where to go from there. My impression (again) is that Muro would be perfectly OK with Barabas-grade minions, and in that sense there is nothing wrong with "secondary" ending up weaker than "prime". As for Mukade, he's a freak but he ain't weak, and Muro can absolutely ''not'' afford (my impression) to surround himself with Mukade-grade secondaries. As for why Muro ended up keeping Mukade around, and even entrusted him with a whole Ninja army... that's [http://geyser.oni2.net/pics/avatars/himagain.png another story]. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 22:48, 30 July 2020 (CEST)
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