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Revision as of 03:25, 18 November 2006

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You're welcome ^^
(Thanks for keeping it short. :p)
m (You're welcome ^^)
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[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:49, 15 November 2006 (CET)
[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:49, 15 November 2006 (CET)
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:Thanks for keeping it short. :p
::ssg
:Thank ''you'' for cooperating
:(e.g., for taking the time to reply)
:I try to keep things organized, hope you like it.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:It's best if all talk page comments are signed,
:in case someone else wonders what's going on...
:... and "who's who"
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:Bold-faced lines are best achieved with the "definition" markup (leading ";")
;like this
:(the only limitation is that you can't use ":" normally)
:(and you have to be careful when indenting, too)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:I'd also recommend the use of hlines to break up not-too-related content
:(e.g., on the ABNA page, what was wrong with the hlines before the footer?)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
----
'''I'd call your new template "OBD Table", as suggested earlier.'''
:I also don't like "Translation" and "Meaning" at all [...]
:
::;geyser
See the "that's a good idea" answer some lines below.
:You can change it if you want. Only one template to alter.
:
::;ssg
'''I also don't like "Translation" and "Meaning" at all, ...'''
:I will, thank you. ^^ But since the world's in motion...
:
:(I mean, templates will be split, renamed, etc... Any name will do for now)
You can change it, if you want. Only one template to alter.
:(even "shpadoinkle" or "kalamazoo") (sorry ^^ )
:
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
'''As for the "Bytes", I think I'd replace it with a type when applicable'''
----
:
:As for the "Bytes", I think I'd replace it with a type when applicable
Well, the type is stored indirectly in the "translation" column. So I'd prefer "bytes".
::;geyser
:
:Well, the type is stored indirectly in the "translation" column. So I'd prefer "bytes".
'''I think a good compromise would be to split the "OBD File Table" in two'''
::;ssg
:
:Illustrative examples are OK (I wouldn't say your examples are always very illustrative)
Yes, that's a good idea. I'd suggest to take
:But ''I'' would prefer to provide the actual information in a way that isn't tied to the example used
:
:(same as in a struct def, ideally)
<nowiki>{| WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=2 STYLE="border-style:solid; border-width:1px; border-collapse:collapse; empty-cells:show; background:#F9F9F9;"</nowiki><br>
:So "type" for me, definitely. The names "short", "long", "float", "char" ring an immediate bell,
<nowiki>|- ALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR="#E9E9E9"</nowiki>
:whereas looking at the "bytes" column, then at the "translation", then back...
:
:(I'm willing to give in to Delphi folks and capitalize those types : Short, Char, etc)
as a basic "prettytable"-like template. Maybe we should call the template "wikitable" or something like that. Choose a ''good'' name. (Please don't use words like "fancy". It confuses more than it explains.)
:(Also, I don't mind about String[X] rather than char[X] for strings of size X)
:
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
The
:As for Oni's internal types : I'd "define" extra types for file-ids and raw-addresses.
 
:Same as the OUP types and extensions. We've talked about that with Alloc, basically we need :
<nowiki>! WIDTH=5% | Start || WIDTH=5% | Bytes || WIDTH=10% | Hex || WIDTH=10% | Translation || WIDTH=70% | Meaning</nowiki>
:*1 type for a DAT's ID, and another one for its level-ID
:
:*98 more types for DAT-links (ignoring the 16 defunct filetypes)
I'd put in a template called f.e. "OBD_Table_Title_Row". (Same here. Choose a ''good'' name.)
:*21 more types for RAW/SEP-links
:
::(1 for BINA, AKVA, OSBD, SNDD SUBT and TXMP; 2 for AGDB; 13 for TRAM)
'''which is a semantic pleonasm BTW'''
:Tell me about any other types that come to your mind : we should "define" them too.
:
::(yes, I think we ''really'' need that, otherwise the info will be incomplete)
But if I write "Below follows the second package" (because, f.e. the pic shows the second package), instead of "Below follows the first package", and it is the first package in the table, it woundn't a semantic pleonasm any longer, right? (Unbelievable that you still know so much about that stuff. I remember that I heard something about that at school years ago. But I forgot all.)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:
:I think the "long-with-high-bit" occurring, e.g., in the [[OBD:IDXA|IDXA]],
'''And that's exactly my problem : no one will ever want to thumbnail them'''
::is best viewed as two shorts... "Bitsets" are best viewed as chars.
:
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
I don't follow. What's exactly your problem? If you upload an image with 300x150, Wiki shows it with 300x150. Why do you care about so much, that "no one will ever want to thumbnail them". Sorry, but I don't get it.
:If the table row is a template (cf. "good idea" below),
:
:the name of a type could be a hyperlink to its "definition"
'''The inability to rename the images'''
::(common page + anchor in that page).
:
:It's quite easy to set up, really.
You can rename them. (Why the heck do you wan't to rename them?)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:
----
'''lousy short-term flexibility'''
:I think a good compromise would be to split the "OBD File Table" in two
:
::;geyser
As I said: Split it and override the existing one. I can't see a problem here.
:Yes, that's a good idea. I'd suggest to take
:
<nowiki>{| WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=2 STYLE="border-style:solid; border-width:1px; border-collapse:collapse; empty-cells:show; background:#F9F9F9;"</nowiki>
'''Make it PNG rather than GIF'''
<nowiki>|- ALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR="#E9E9E9"</nowiki>
:
:as a basic "prettytable"-like template. Maybe we should call the template "wikitable" or something like that.
Yes, Wiki says: use png instead of gif, because gif supports only 256 colours. But: None of my hex screenshots uses more than 50 different colours. So it would be IMO really pretty stupid to change the file format without any need.
::;ssg
:
:You misunderstood me as for the splitting.
'''Capitalize the names according to the names of the actual files'''
:I meant to have nothing but that first line in the basic template : no header row.
:
:Some of your flags seem redundant to me, but I might be wrong. More, later.
Er... why should I do that? Are you trying to use a steamroller to crack a nut?
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:
:Actually, there are lots of table templates on Wikipedia and elsewhere.
'''Whatever your "OBD Image" template is supposed to do, it's probably a bad idea.'''
:Not that we should pick from them (yours is fine), but of course we can ^^
:
:Since it's a very plain-looking table, I'd call the template {{Table}}. Or {{TableHeader}}
Well, this has something to do with style. If f.e. someone changes the wiki background colour, so that it isn't longer white, you wou'll have a centered header, an image with white background but with a max. width of 690px on the left, and a table with a width of 100 percent. That sucks. It doesn't look good. But if you put the white-backgrounded image in a white-backgrounded table with a width of 100 percent, it will look much better. (Try it, if you don't believe me.)
::("...Header" to reflect that it's not a full set of table tags, just the opening)
:
:I'd call it {{GrayTable}}... if we weren't so likely to change the wiki's bg color... :P
So I'd like to use the image template for the hex images (even if we don't need it now).
:And I'd have it look like this (with flexibility in mind) :
:
<nowiki>{|BORDER=1 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=2 STYLE="border-style:solid; border-collapse:collapse; empty-cells:show; background:#F9F9F9;" WIDTH={{{0|100%}}} ALIGN={{{2|center}}}</nowiki>
---
:Tell me what you think.
:
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
We should have a zip file with all the current struct defs somewhere.
----
:
:Choose a ''good'' name. (Please don't use words like "fancy". It confuses more than it explains.)
---
::;ssg
:
:I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, but the "fancification" was a joke.
'''Actually, it may sound crazy, but I feel like taking THIS experiment a bit further.'''
:Not a ''good'' one, maybe, but a joke nonetheless ^^
:
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
Well, if you have enough time, you can do that. Have fun. :p
:"Fancy" is ''not'' confusing, though.
:
:I think it unambiguously and accurately reflects the spirit of your endeavour :
'''But I'd still appreciate if crucial files like AGQG were kept in sync with Oni Stuff...'''
::custom in a nice-looking way, somewhat stylish. No offence meant, of course.
:
:We'll choose a ''good'' name. Heck, I'll let ''you'' choose it. Be my guest.
I'm not sure, if I understand correctly what you want, but if we agree on the design, I'll adapt the html2wiki translator to that and update all file pages with the new code.
:(I can always rename the template around as long as it's not widely used :P )
:
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
<p align=right>[[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 12:57, 17 November 2006 (CET)
----
:The
<nowiki>! WIDTH=5% | Start || WIDTH=5% | Bytes || WIDTH=10% | Hex || WIDTH=10% | Translation || WIDTH=70% | Meaning</nowiki>
:I'd put in a template called f.e. "OBD_Table_Title_Row".
:(Same here. Choose a ''good'' name.)
::;ssg
:I'd make it :
<nowiki>|- BGCOLOR="#E9E9E9"</nowiki>
<nowiki>! WIDTH=5% | Offset || WIDTH=5% | Type || WIDTH=10% | Raw Hex || WIDTH=10% | Value || WIDTH=70% | Description</nowiki>
:And I'll let you choose the name, again
:({{OBD Table Header}} is fine by me)
:(maybe a bit confusing if we use "...Header" for the basic one)
:(yup, the basic one should be {{Table}}, definitely)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:[...] which is a semantic pleonasm BTW
::;geyser
:But if I write "Below follows the second package" (because, f.e. the pic shows the second package),
:instead of "Below follows the first package", and it is the first package in the table,
:it wouldn't a semantic pleonasm any longer, right?
:(Unbelievable that you still know so much about that stuff.
:I remember that I heard something about that at school years ago.
:But I forgot all.)
::;ssg
:I actively remember all the time ^^.
:Nice try, but both your examples up there are equally pleonastic (redundant).
:Simply because of "Below follows". Those two words are redundant of each other.
:(I formulated that line a bit differently on a few pages, most recently on [[OBD:ABNA|ABNA]])
:(It's really no big deal, but when one sees it often... Hm. Hehe. Just delete all this... ^^)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:And that's exactly my problem : no one will ever want to thumbnail them
::;geyser
:I don't follow. What's exactly your problem?
:If you upload an image with 300x150, Wiki shows it with 300x150.
:Why do you care about so much, that "no one will ever want to thumbnail them".
:Sorry, but I don't get it.
::;ssg
:Auto-thumbnailing to any size you specify in an article,
::along with auto-hyperlinking to the "image page"
:::(possibly holding informative content or a redirect),
::::is ''the'' main advantage of wiki-based media content.
:Your images make no use of that, which is why the point for having them wiki-based is weak.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:Another reason why, e.g., Wikipedia has all its media wiki-based
:is that it there's no user directories stored on the server alongside the wiki
:(something we ''do'' have on oni2.net, and "always will" : both run in parallel)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:Some wikis prevent the display of external images. We do not, and the main reason
:is the ability, e.g., for me to link to Oni's [[Music/CD|OST MP3]] or [[Oni2:Influences/StateOfEmergency/Pictures|SoE screenshots]]
:(all that resides on oni2.net, and takes no more time to load than if it was wiki-based, maybe less)
:That also makes the point for uploading "plain-transcluded" images rather weak.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:The inability to rename the images
::;geyser
:You can rename them. (Why the heck do you want to rename them?)
::;ssg
:You can ''not'' rename ("move") media files. I'm sorry, but it's true.
:You can only delete them and/or upload them with a new name.
:I want to be able to rename them because the current names are
::a (not too pretty) relict of your own site's nomenclature.
:I want to be able to rename them because that's part of the full-control editing you're aiming at.
:It's wrong to massively edit (and ultimately split/merge) a file and be tied by the name someone else gave it, long ago.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:lousy short-term flexibility
::;geyser
:As I said: Split it and override the existing one. I can't see a problem here.
::;ssg
:See above : that's not what I call overwhelming editorial freedom.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:Make it PNG rather than GIF
::;geyser
:Yes, Wiki says: use png instead of gif, because gif supports only 256 colours.
:But: None of my hex screenshots uses more than 50 different colours.
:So it would be IMO really pretty stupid to change the file format without any need.
::;ssg
:There are a few other reasons to use PNG instead of GIF
:#It's open, not proprietary, but perhaps that's what we care about the least
:#It allows for advanced transparence effects (OK, that doesn't apply here either)
:#It compresses the images to much smaller sizes, despite the higher color depth.
:A high compression rate means more processor stress on the client side (peanuts)
:But the downloaded size is much smaller, which is especially felt by the server.
:How much is "much"? Well, it turns out that the PNG are about 70% smaller
:For instance, abna_a.gif takes up 5646 bytes.
:Converting it to PNG takes the size down to 1710 bytes.
:That's not much for a single download, of course.
:But it always helps to ease the load on the server, right?
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:Capitalize the names according to the names of the actual files
::;geyser
:Er... why should I do that? Are you trying to use a steamroller to crack a nut?
::;ssg
:Dunno. We use properly capitalized extensions everywhere : page names, OUP, plain text...
:The only exception is your site, and while I can't make you rename your own images, ^^
:I'd rather the ones you upload didn't inherit the "inconsistent" lowercase names.
:I ''so'' wish you'd have asked before uploading all of them... If you only knew... ^^
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:Whatever your "OBD Image" template is supposed to do, it's probably a bad idea.
::;geyser
:Well, this has something to do with style.
:If f.e. someone changes the wiki background colour, so that it isn't longer white, you will have
:*a centered header,
:*an image with white background but with a max. width of 690px on the left,
:*and a table with a width of 100 percent.
:That sucks. It doesn't look good.
:But if you put the white-backgrounded image in a white-backgrounded table with a width of 100 percent,
:it will look much better. (Try it if you don't believe me.)
::;ssg
:Personally and generally, I don't give a crap about the nice looks as long as the content is there.
:And, as I've said, I'm colorblind, so I feel like leaving the color issues entirely to your expertise.
:So I guess we could say I ''do'' "believe" you in those matters (I mean web design in general).
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:However, I've never seen a MediaWiki build with a non-white background : that'd be 100% vain.
:''That'' is what would suck. Oni or no Oni, I don't think I could stand running a ''vain'' wiki.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:How you systematically stretch your tables to the page's width is not ''exactly'' fine by me, either.
:In many cases, stretching the content over a large screen looks like a waste of space
:(and I feel like left-aligning or centering them without stretching them, instead)
:(if not for the main OBD tables, at least the auxiliary ones are often quite small)
:(see [[OBD:BINA|BINA]])
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
:It's nothing I can't live with, of course. Most of the time page-wide tables look nice.
:And I always have the possibility to embed a "100%" table into a normal table.
:(I ''insist'' on that right : see my suggestion for the wiki-wide table template)
:(custom width and custom alignment : you ''have'' to allow for those)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:I'd like to use the image template for the hex images (even if we don't need it now).
::ssg
:I have a few more considerations for you, and an alternative. Check out [[OBD:ABNA|ABNA]].
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:We should have a zip file with all the current struct defs somewhere.
::ssg
:On svn.oni2.net, of course. In the same folder as the individual struct defs will be.
:We'll have to redefine all of them (see above, talk to Alloc) in the "near" future...
:They have to allow for unambiguous browsing of the file-system by OUP (e.g., patching).
:Starting from a ''named'' file (same name on all versions), the patcher should use
::''nothing but version-independent information'' to browse the level-files.
:Then, and only then, can we create a "legal" patcher that works the same on every version
::and doesn't allow one to download all of Oni's resources for free.
:(I already stressed the other advantage of that system : ''modularity'')
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:Actually, it may sound crazy, but I feel like taking [[OBD:Test#OBD_file_types|THIS]] experiment a bit further.
::;geyser
:Well, if you have enough time, you can do that. Have fun. :p
::;ssg
:I did it. It works. Check it out [[OBD:Test#HexRow|HERE]] or on [[OBD:ABNA|ABNA]].
:I didn't implement the black/gray outlines but I don't think we really need them.
:The markup takes up half as much space as the PNG (and 84% less than a GIF, fa fa fa! )
:The rendered HTML takes up more space than a PNG, but it's still less than half as big as a GIF.
:The editability is unrivaled.
:Doing those by hand takes a reasonable time, I'd say, because of the handy layout.
:For larger chunks, though, scripts may be in order.
:Since it's fully editable, you can omit the irrelevant stuff
::(e.g., senseless ASCII, confirmed garbage...)
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
----
:But I'd still appreciate if crucial files like [[OBD:AGQG|AGQG]] were kept in sync with Oni Stuff...
::;geyser
:I'm not sure I understand correctly what you want, but if we agree on the design,
:I'll adapt the html2wiki translator to that and update all file pages with the new code.
::[[User:Ssg|Ssg]] 12:57, 17 November 2006 (CET)
:You got it right. I'm looking forward to that.
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 04:25, 18 November 2006 (CET)
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