Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events

A few comments from 'Scen

Assassins & Mukade

It's one of those fourth wall-breaking moments when the mission objective text tells us that Mukade is "Muro's master ninja". The question to be asked is whether those objectives are omniscient word-of-god blurbs, or based on Konoko's understanding at the time… After all, Muro says nothing leading into the Regional State mission, so we don't know if he is aware of, or cares about, Konoko's attempt to learn more about herself. Why would he want to keep her dad's records from her, anyway? --Iritscen (talk) 20:55, 6 June 2020 (CEST)

I really hate the manual for the same "omniscient" reason (and also because of how most of it is seemingly quoted from "rebellion" archives, but forms the basis of Konoko's mission briefing, and at some point it's almost like Konoko is running for the rebellion and not the TCTF...). It's not as bad as the comic, of course, but it's still pretty bad. --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

I like the writing of the manual, except for how it starts off in the voice of the Rebellion and never clearly shifts to the voice of the TCTF, as you pointed out. "Why am I reading so much propaganda from the Rebellion when they're the bad guys? Pretty weird of you to start my training course with this stuff. Gotta say, it's starting to seem pretty convincing…." --Iritscen (talk) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

Konoko has her hunches. She has only fought Muro's men so far (and Griffin's, but that's new). So she sees Mukade upon entering the RSB building and, although she's never seen a Ninja before, she can't help thinking "Muro!" (and not, say, "BGi!"). If there was any doubt about the faction, the color-coded Ninja and the Strikers on the rooftops convince Konoko that Mukade is one of Muro's generals (or "thugs" as she puts it). --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

Looking at this from Mukade's and Muro's perspective, indeed there isn't much of a reason why Muro would want to look at Hasegawa's files, or to keep them away from Konoko. Whatever Muro wanted to know about Mai's recent history at the TCTF, it was either in Shinatama's head or in the Damocles system back at the TCTF HQ. Then again, he only sent Barabas to retrieve Shinatama, and apparently it was just to mess with Mai by hurting her "sister soul", and to see how much fun it would be to torture a pain-capable android. If Muro instructed someone (Kojiro?) to hack into Damocles and download an overview of Mai's progress, it all happened off-screen. --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

To be clear, Muro has a sole, practical reason for wanting Shinatama: "An android? Interesting. They must be using it to monitor her progress. I want it. Tell Barabas to retrieve it for me." He doesn't say anything about wanting to torture her, and it would be a fairly insane use of his manpower and precious enforcer to raid TCTF HQ just to get an SLD to play Doctor [Mengele] with, especially when he has SLDs in his very own force. --Iritscen (talk) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

Well, he does end up playing Doctor Mengele, doesn't he? Barabas's team apparently brought Shinatama directly to the ACC, where there isn't much of an interface to connect her to... apart from those high-voltage cables -- so much for "practical". It sure would look like this (the torture) is what Muro had in mind for Shinatama all along, being a monster and maniac and all. Konoko's diary-hunch ("What could Shinatama know that is so valuable to them?") doesn't get much of a confirmation, and is actually misinformed - Konoko simply doesn't know that she and Muro are related, and how much he already knows about her. --geyser (talk) 13:12, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

Back to Muro's "sole reason", you may be overinterpreting a tiny bit. When he says "They must be using it to monitor her progress.", he is merely rationalizing the practical reason for the TCTF to have an SLD neurolinked to Konoko. These sentences still make sense if Muro is thinking out loud and doesn't imply any logical links between the progress-monitoring clause and "An android? Interesting. [...] I want it. Tell Barabas to retrieve it for me." Torturing an official SLD, much more pain-capable than the Tankers, is quite rewarding already. As a bonus, it's not just any pain-capable SLD, but Mai's sister soul, so he's not just hurting Shinatama -- he's messing with Mai. Last but not least, by ripping Shinatama out of Damocles, Muro might have passed the chance to have a good look at Mai's Chrysalis data, but in doing so he has also severed the bond between Konoko and the TCTF (and Griffin who was "like a father" to her until then). This drives Konoko into insubordination and rogue status, and of course she isn't getting tactical updates from Shinatama any more. So I would say that, regardless of logical links, Muro's actions were rather effective in disrupting TCTF's monitoring of Konoko, and Konoko's loyalty to the TCTF -- even if his only "direct" use for Shinatama is to torture her. He's an agent of chaos all right. So much for "sole". --geyser (talk) 13:12, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

As for the decision to send Barabas into the TCTF HQ to retrieve Shinatama -- the "precious enforcer" failed Muro earlier that evening, when he was beaten by rookie Mai and put Muro's Vago operation at risk ("just make sure I'm not interrupted", he said -- perhaps looking through tons of computer data that need his full attention, or making some delicate manipulations with lab equipment?). So it makes sense if Muro sends Barabas on a daring mission next, something to redeem his "preciousness" (or die trying). --geyser (talk) 13:12, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

I am not completely ignoring the part where "monitoring her progress" may be referring to Chrysalis integration and not to mission status. But that data cannot be easily extracted from Shinatama except through Damocles (and the big data is probably archived at the TCTF HQ, too, rather than in Shinatama's head). Therefore, anyone wishing to find out more about Konoko's symbiosis -- as a possible complement to torturing her sister soul with high voltage and severing her bond with Griffin and the TCTF -- would have to peek into the raided TCTF HQ's data terminals, just like Mai did. We can imply that "Kojiro" (the coordinator of Barabas's raid) took care of that, or we can show that Mukade is in the house as well, and associate him with data theft early in the plot. --geyser (talk) 13:12, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

Who's overthinking this again? Lol. Muro says he wants to know what progress Konoko is making, and asks for the android. That was pretty clear-cut until you started doing all this mind-reading. If you're going to point out that there's no interface for Shinatama to be hooked up to in ACC, then you might as well point out that there's no chair or obvious means of binding Shinatama in place. Let's not read into a scene that was obviously slapped together at the last minute of Oni's development. Muro could have learned plenty from Shinatama, at any time prior to this, in another location, or by simply hooking up a computer to her, or via the very torture being depicted. By the way, "I have seen everything you have seen" doesn't sound like someone who needs Damocles to keep track of information about Konoko. --Iritscen (talk) 14:45, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

OK, I'll make this simple for you. "An android? [...] I want it." is just about Muro becoming aware of Mai's "sister soul" SLD and wanting it. Ultimately he wanted Shinatama for something very direct and physical, as we are both shown and told. Muro also recognizes that Shinatama is a bridge between Konoko and the TCTF, so he's only happy to burn that bridge, screwing up Damocles and sending Mai into free orbit where she's more fun. Gathering symbiosis data (if any) would be a nice bonus, but it really isn't clear how useful an unplugged Shinatama is in that respect -- which is hardly a problem as long as Muro gets to do his pain monologue (priceless!). --geyser (talk) 15:35, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

I think you're giving Muro too much credit if you think he masterminded the situation and caused Konoko to go rogue. Who would have known that Shinatama and Konoko were emotionally bonded? This is not a situation with precedent. Muro would likely have no idea of a sisterly bond between them. He wanted the android for information (obtained off-screen), as he clearly stated, and then he turned sadistic out of boredom (and so we in the audience could see what kind of person he is). The end. --Iritscen (talk) 17:45, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

Or, as a bona-fide agent of chaos, he finds satisfaction both in the torture and in having severed the link between Konoko and the TCTF, and that's as much as he needs. The insubordination and rogue-going are not something Muro can "predict", but he is fully aware that taking Shinatama away will piss the good guys off, at the very least, and mess them up if he's lucky. That's basic Heath-Ledger-Joker-ian anarchism right there: "I’m like a dog chasing cars, I wouldn’t know what to do if I caught one, you know, I just do… things." Shinatama was taken to the ACC because that's where Muro was at the time, and was tortured with high voltage because that, too, was conveniently available there and then. The end. As for the data theft, if any, there was plenty of opportunity for it at the TCTF HQ while it was overrun by Strikers (without any need for any improbable data-hacking at some undocumented place in some tightly-packed schedule - "Here she is, sir, we brought her as you wanted! Uh, interface? I wouldn't know anythin' 'bout that. There was this big chair that Barabas yanked her out... but he's dead now. Please don't hurt me."). The end too. --geyser (talk) 18:06, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

"He wanted the android for information (obtained off-screen), as he clearly stated." -- no he didn't, I'm sorry, no. He is saying that Shinatama is (likely!) used to monitor Mai's progress (as a Daodan symbiote?), but in no way is this clause directly stated as Muro's motive for "wanting" Shinatama and for having her kidnapped. It's Muro rationalizing the existence of an SLD that's neurolinked to Mai back at TCTF HQ -- no more, no less. If you "need" that logical link, then say so. But don't act like it's there intrinsically. --geyser (talk) 18:37, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

We're definitely going to have to agree to disagree on this one. --Iritscen (talk) 19:47, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

As for extracting the data, "I have seen everything you have seen" isn't really the same as "I have all the big data at the tip of my tongue.". Even if Shinatama's RAM still holds the current and most relevant data about Mai's status as a symbiote, extracting it from her verbally will be a pain (pun intended), and interfacing with her electronically might involve custom ports/drivers/protocols that Muro does not necessarily possess, and wouldn't be able to conjure up in just a few hours. So if I were Muro/Mukade/Kojiro, I'd use my time at the TCTF HQ to grab Shinatama and the data. --geyser (talk) 15:35, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

My suggestion (in the TNZ scope and more generally) is to present the RSB/Rooftops episode as Mukade's initiative. Whoever or whatever he is, he's messing with Mai in his own way, and it has nothing to do with Muro. Unlike Konoko, he can apparenly hack the data from any terminal and not just the one in the basement, and yet he puts on a show: killing cops in the lobby (after making sure that more are on the way) just in time for Konoko's arrival; leaving a trail of corpses throughout the building; waiting for Konoko to come online before he starts stripping files right in front of her, then waiting for her to catch up with him again, and again, and again... Chase sequences often have awkwardly convenient timing, but here it's just too much. At the very least, he has a perverted crush on her, and is going out of his way to freak her out. --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

My other suggestion (in the scope of TNZ's "wishmap") is to make Konoko's hunch more natural, by giving Mukade a cameo appearance in earlier chapters, like he's stalking her -- not clearly acting on Muro's orders or out of some personal interest. In ACC levels, there are several impossible-to-reach (and impossible-not-to-notice) places that Mukade could be observing Konoko from (and as opposed to BGi troops -- another suggested addition to these levels -- he wouldn't be trying to snipe her). --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

As for TCTF HQ, I'd have Mukade hacking at terminals in deserted sections of the building (either in player-discoverable places off the beaten track, or in some un-missable location, with or without a cutscene -- like in the Damocles room). He'd phase-cloak or teleport when spotted, leaving Mai perplexed, but too worried about Shinatama to give much of a thought to his role and motivation. She and the player would just register that, while Barabas was retrieving Shinatama as per Muro's request, there was this other guy who was snooping around in Damocles (for Mai's data?) -- apparently on the same side as the Strikers, but possibly with an agenda of his own. Among other things, it would be more than enough to justify the RSB hunch. --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

Wilderness Preserves

When listing options, you could also list my own theory, that the Wilderness Preserves are the source of the pollution, not the dumping grounds or result of it, and that the "pollution" is actually the natural by-product of xenobiological activity. Unless that doesn't fit in with the narrative you're building here. --Iritscen (talk) 20:55, 6 June 2020 (CEST)

Apologies, this isn't the Grand Unified Theory page ^_^; I think the rest of my commentary is still relevant, though it's just my two cents, so no need to reply. --Iritscen (talk) 14:17, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

I don't have a "frozen" narrative at this time (and, for what it's worth, I'd love to keep things "comfortably ambiguous" as I go on). Some of the points you've just read are less than a week old. Like the idea that, while the WCG was imposing standardized tech, old tech was being collected and more or less recklessly dumped. Or the part where "one of the main sources of WCG's power was power itself" -- both through the ubiquitous Energy Cell and through the ACC facilities which started as power plants (both development-wise and in-universe). --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

I haven't re-read your theory in detail (I'm not even sure you unveiled it in full detail, for that matter), but I did mention "aliens dumping their trash at us", without specifying the nature and purpose of the "trash" (xenoforming, forward time travel, etc). "Alien trash" is also what the Roadside Picnic reference/link is about: in that book by the Strugatsky brothers (read it! now!), there are multiple Contaminated Zones around the globe, full of artifacts and hazards of alien origin. Some artifacts are obvious pieces of tech that can be put to scientific/technological use (Energy Cells, perpetual-motion devices, etc), others are hazards that can only be "useful" to the military (pools of goo, deadly "spiderwebs" or "jelly", etc), and some of the atrocities are so violent and unpredictable that your best bet as a "stalker" (harvester) is to avoid them altogether. A mental image of this pollution is that it's like trash left by aliens on their way through the galaxy (motor oil, cigarette butts, food leftovers, etc) -- not clearly a means to an invasion, but ominous enough just the same ("evil plot" or not, what difference does it make if it kills or alienates us all?). --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

But why use Earth as a dumping ground, when you have the vastness of space? That's just plain mean-spirited. --Iritscen (talk) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

I'm not sure if your question pertains to the Strugatskys' Zones or Oni's. Why leave breadcrumbs around a picnic table, of all places -- is that what you're asking? The Strugatskys' aliens happened to pass Earth, and the artifacts are byproducts of their activity -- whether careless or intended, we do not know. There might be more in the vastness of space (as is revealed in other books by the Strugatskys), but on our particular "roadside" we have those particular piles of trash -- no more, no less. Also, the aliens aren't "mean" in the homo sapiens sense, at least we have no way to tell whether they are or aren't mean: the aliens are long gone, and all we have is their artifacts and their strange effects on us. --geyser (talk) 16:03, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

In the case of Oni, the aliens aren't even space-roaming ones, they're visiting us through phase portals. Like in your SoW take, they're tethered to us through "Gaia" and such, and don't need to be a space-faring race at all. So, throwing trash our way comes quite naturally. I'm not saying that's what actually happens, just pointing out that they'd be "phase aliens" if anything, not "space aliens". --geyser (talk) 16:03, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

And if I'm completely missing it, and you are if fact saying that it's mean of the WCG to dump toxic waste into the Zones instead of sending it to the Moon or something -- getting tons of payload into high orbit has got to be costly, at least by conventional means. Of course as soon as Phase Tech allows teleportation, the first thing the WCG would try is make waste disappear -- but how well would that work, and what would it look like if it backfired? Possible explanation for the appearance of the Zones in the first place: instead of traveling to the Phase and staying there, the first "few" loads of NBC waste boomeranged back at the Earth and got scattered around the globe, and it took a while for the scientists to notice it. Possibly the toxicity/virulence of the waste was enhanced while traveling through the Phase, and perhaps some of it was Daodan-tainted in the process as well. Real-time brainstorming over. --geyser (talk) 16:03, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

Sorry, it wasn't my intention to trigger all that guesswork and speculation. I was simply asking why the Strugatsky aliens would dump garbage on Earth when it would be so much easier to jettison it into space or aim it into a star. --Iritscen (talk) 17:45, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

That's OK, I kinda liked that last idea about Zones popping up randomly as a result of waste-phasing experiments gone wrong. As for the Strugatskys, I thought I answered: to us, it's a hazardous dump; they, they just leaked some motor oil here, emptied a car ashtray there, some food leftovers, etc. The idea is that, possibly, they just weren't registering the fact that they were polluting at all (not like we can get into their heads to see what they were thinking, especially now that they're gone). --geyser (talk) 20:24, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

Another recent point of mine -- that not all of the Contaminated Zones need to be identically (or homogeneously) polluted -- is also similar to Roadside Picnic (unintentionally so). It just occurred to me that there are many ways to pollute a restricted area, especially in a sci-fi-ready world such as Oni's. Even if the origin of the pollution is the same (Phase-related or not), it can always go in slightly different directions in two different Zones -- just look at the variety of ecological disasters in the modern world. Unless, of course, it's deliberate xenoforming of some kind -- in that case, indeed, there's a chance that all the Zones will look/behave more or less the same. Or if the pre-WCG countries have been secretly producing and dumping the same kind of waste for years prior to the Uprising -- that would work too.--geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

One important difference between the TNZ perspective (so far) and SoW's is that in SoW the BioCrisis predates the Uprising, i.e., the Contaminated Zones (whatever they are) became a major concern before the Uprising (prompting it, even?), rather than a couple of years after. Indeed it's a bit tight to have the Uprising happen in 2012 (with the general public oblivious to the "air gone bad") and then in 2014 there are already ACCs everywhere, and the world outside them is poisonous (but the pollution is still "made easy to ignore" somehow? WTF). --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

It wasn't my intention to "speculate" that the BioCrisis began before the WCG takeover; rather, it's always how I've read Oni's story. Leaving aside my own retcon that the pollution is alien in origin, we know that Hardy intended it to simply be genuine, homemade industrial pollution. So I assumed that it had been building up since, well, the start of the Industrial Age. Looked at it that way, the only question of timing is when it finally became too serious to ignore. Clearly that was well before Oni takes place, as time was needed to build the ACCs and establish the Preserves by the time Hasegawa and Jamie had their ill-fated expedition. If one simply picks a year like 2000 as the starting point for ACC construction, they could be well in place by 2014. --Iritscen (talk) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

Saying things like "it's how I've always read Oni's story" is a good lead-up to a "let's agree to disagree" later on. ^_^ I'd say something about Oni having a life of its own after Hardy set it free, but that'd be too liberal of me, perhaps. My problem with industrial pollution is that it doesn't just build up in the middle of nowhere -- there needs to be a coal mine there, or an oil field, or some human activity that messes with nature in some way or other, and it also really helps if there's a large (and poorly managed) city nearby. Unless it's an actual landfill (or worse) that's intentionally built in the middle of nowhere so that no one will notice or care (there's plenty of that stuff in Russia). In Oni, there may be regular, man-made, accounted-for pollution in cities or "monotowns" (near mines, oil fields, etc), which may have been bad enough to prompt the construction of ACCs, but there's also the much more improbable pollution that apparently "spawned" in the Preserves and has been staying out of public view pretty much all the way into 2032. In fact, those middle-of-nowhere pollution sources -- whatever they are -- seem to be so far off the beaten track that they aren't easily identified as such unless/until you go in for a deep exploration. --geyser (talk) 00:25, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

In SoW you say (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Preserves were stained/permeated (impregnated?) by time-aliens in a deliberate attempt to xenoform the Earth so that they could roam it again. Somehow the bastards were cunning/lucky enough to start the contamination in uninhabited areas, far enough from all the cities, so that the "soft invasion" would go unnoticed until it covered areas that were too large to neutralize completely. In the end the WCG had no choice but to build fences around the invaded areas, and the only way for humanity to "fight back" was to crank up the ACCs and pray that no one would have the brilliant idea of blowing them all up at once. --geyser (talk) 00:25, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

My speculation, or rather my latest take on this, is that there may have been ordinary landfills and such in some of the Zones early on, but most of the pollution appeared (unnoticed at first?) after some Phase experiments (in the early years where Phase tech was poorly regulated and rather hazardous). Either secret labs (testing grounds) deep in the "jungle", or teleportations gone wrong, as described previously. That's close enough to SoW, actually, since (correct me if I'm wrong) the xenoforming invasion would have needed a transdimensional portal of some sort to have appeared in each of the Preserves at some point. My "guess" about how the teleported samples (waste bins, neo-Laikas or otherwise) may have been "alienated" during the teleport, resulting in "unearthly" contamination wherever the "boomerang" hit -- that's also close to SoW, wouldn't you say? --geyser (talk) 00:25, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

Yes, that's a pretty accurate summation. I left my premise a bit open-ended. One possibility is that the area beyond the phase veil is another planet or universe (the idea that Hardy no doubt had in mind). But plot twists can come from additional revelations later on, such as "They're actually from right here on Earth, in the distant past." The final twist I suggested was that it turns out, last-minute as the full-on invasion is happening, that they're actually not even from the past… they're right here, under the oceans. The time stuff was either a feint or a (rare) errant assumption by Mai. The aliens are from the distant past but have been in suspended animation the entire time, and are using the portals to seed the land with their alien life. --Iritscen (talk) 01:13, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

The alien life, by the way, doesn't really need to be seeded carefully or secretly; being Daodan-powered, any xeno-dandelion seed that lands in a field could start the whole species growing. All that's needed is for humans not to notice for a while and it's too late. The WCG knows about the incursion, terming it a BioCrisis, blaming it on pollution, and using it as an excuse to establish world hegemony, but they can't watch everywhere at once. The areas that "go to seed" before WCG can catch them are cordoned off as Wilderness Preserves. (Note that the name makes a lot more sense if the Preserves aren't just a big wasteland with discarded industrial pollution in them, which would be obvious from satellite imagery. It really is a wilderness; the WCG just isn't saying whose Wilderness it is…) --Iritscen (talk) 01:13, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

For more on how the Wilderness has to spread in order to prepare the way for Earth's original masters to live on it again, see the second bullet point here and then this part of my Neo-Biology page. --Iritscen (talk) 01:13, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

I'm a big disliker of time-traveling in sci-fi (mainly because of how we're all sitting on a rock that's careening through space, so traveling forward in time even a split second would leave you in that rock's wake, gasping for air). If your "time travel" is actually akin to hibernation, then of course it works better. However, in that case, I'd say the Daodan doesn't need to be time-traveling either. The "Oldies" (or whatever you'd call them) would just pack daodandelion seeds into time capsules that say "Do not open until X-Mas 1999", and voilà. Phase veil? What for? --geyser (talk) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

The only problem then is, I'm no longer sure that it's still Oni that we're talking about and not some Mass Effect DLC (with timeless Leviathans at the bottom of oceans, or Reapers chilling in the darkness of space until it's "time to collect"). I know you're convinced that the dying Jamie (as dreamed up by Konoko) looks kinda like Barabas, but drawing a parallel between Jamie's complete cellular breakdown and Mai's or Muro's integrity-preserving symbiosis is a bit of a stretch even by my standards. You seem to imply that the "flowering shrub" is Daodan-enhanced (like Konoko? or in some other way that Oni says nothing about?), and Jamie, not having the same DNA signature as the shrub, is destroyed upon contact with its Chrysalis instead of being "reinforced or replaced". So how does this feed back into Oni? If Konoko spits in Griffin's face, does he rot alive in minutes? is that how it works? --geyser (talk) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

Mostly agree about the Wilderness Preserves being mostly overgrown -- not like a large dump can't be covered in greenery, mind you, or covered-up by limiting access to satellite imagery (Oni's space programs are not the same as NASA's and ESA's, so we don't know what satellites they had in orbit before the Uprising, and who was running them). At any rate, Hasegawa's tale is really telling us that "the world outside the ACCs is poisonous" so, at least in the one Zone that he and Jamie set foot into, the virus (or whatever) had apparently "gone to seed" in most of the Zone's lifeforms. This is not telling us that the virus (or whatever) didn't spread from a man-made container discarded somewhere deep in the forest, or from a secret underground lab, or from an enigmatic phase portal (or xenoforming time capsule). Like I said earlier, Zones (Preserves) don't all have to look the same or kill their local Jamies in the same fashion. It's only your own Wilderness fixation that's giving you that idea. (For what it's worth, would Jamie's Zone cause "biological contamination" on a plane passing overhead, that would be immediately noticed and reported by pilots? I wouldn't be so sure.) --geyser (talk) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

Last but not least, "alien invasions" (doesn't matter if they're space aliens or time aliens or phase aliens) is one of the big caveats of sci-fi for me, if not one of the big no-nos. No matter how unfathomable and unfamiliar you're trying to picture them, they always come across as sock puppets and man-made "golems" (poor copies of ourselves) from the moment they appear on screen. If they turn out to be "bad guys", then the tropes get even worse. I probably could name more than a few exceptions to that rule (good sci-fi with believable aliens, and even with a convincing enough "invasion" going on), but the point is, I'm picky as hell when it comes to those things. The Screamer Queen mentioned by Hardy(?) I would probably tolerate because she'd be all immaterial and hungry, and probably would just equate to (super)natural disaster. --geyser (talk) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

That said, I plead guilty myself -- I imagined an alien race a while back and had been thinking of ways of incorporating them into the Oni universe... as invaders. The Daodan, in that "story", would have been helping Mankind to prepare -- by hyperevolving -- so that they'd survive the encounter with the "actual" enemy all the way in Oni 3. From what I recall those "other aliens" were going to be powerful-but-stupid, kinda like furry zerglings. Good times... --geyser (talk) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

Having the WCG instituted in 2012 also feels a bit weird, with Jamie dying in 2014 and Chrysalises already grown in 2016 -- it just doesn't leave much time for the TCTF's regulations to have kicked in, or for the Network to have already evolved into "The Syndicate" by the time Hasegawa and Kerr start working there. --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

The only awkwardly-tight timing is the development of the Daodan Chrysalis, which itself is not hard to explain if one assumes that (a) Hasegawa and Kerr had relevant prior experience, (b) the technology of the time was close enough to what they needed that they didn't have to advance all of science by a human lifespan in 3 years, and (c) they found the Daodan, rather than creating it. --Iritscen (talk) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

Agree. c) Finding the Daodan (or being found by it) gave them a miraculous boost, but still left them with a probable several months of research both before the discovery (exploring/experimenting) and afterwards (designing various monitoring protocols, mostly); b) if tha Daodan is mostly another Phase Thingie, and the Chrysalis is cancer, then yeah, the science of Oni-2014 probably had the basics covered; a) yeah, although it may be fun/useful to imagine what they'd been working on prior to Jamie's death. --geyser (talk) 01:17, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

One solution I see is just to move the Uprising to the early 2000s, and the emergence of pre-WCG entities (Phase, Network, initial pollution) to the 1990s or even 1980s. That leaves the problem of the Freedom Riots occurring in 2012: if we identify them as the same "world riots" as the ones that happened immediately after the Uprising, then we'd need to edit the PSP's WPge to say "2002"; if they're different riots (10 years into WCG or something like that), then there's nothing to change. --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

Another solution -- that would keep both the Uprising and Freedom Riots in 2012 -- is, indeed, to say that: a) pollution (in the Zones) had existed long before the Uprising; b) one of the reasons for instituting the WCG (and building the ACCs right away) was a steady drop in air quality (but the Zones being the main source of the pollution would have remained a well-kept secret at the time -- and all the way to 2032, actually); c) the Network somehow turned into The Syndicate very quickly. Maybe I'll grow more comfortable with such a tight timeline after I/we sketch a few events from the early WCG years (ACC construction schedules, WCG's regulations and innovations, TCTF operations, radical Network/Syndicate countermeasures...) -- if it starts to look crowded, then maybe we should give it more time. --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

It doesn't look tight to me at all with the timing I suggested above. BioCrisis looms in 2000, ACCs go into production, nations go even further into debt than they were already, and WCG takes over in 2012, leading to Freedom Riots (I'm sure these were intended by Hardy to be in response to the WCG's power grab). There's no need to assume the Network quickly turned into the Syndicate after 2012. Just because Kerr refers to it as such in 2032 doesn't mean they were called that at the time that he and Hasegawa went to them. --Iritscen (talk) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

Good point about Kerr calling it "Syndicate" just because that's what the WCG's been calling it for the past 20 years. I don't much like the idea of ACCs going into production before the WCG grab, because they're like the face of WCG to me: massive, standardized, and part of a global system. Perhaps I'd rather say that, by 2012, the emanations from the Wilderness had become a major concern in the cities (but the actual location of the source was subject to debate/censorship). One of the "selling points" of the Uprising was that the new leaders would actually "do something" about the air going bad (by building the ACCs in a matter of months -- putting an end to the riots when the air quality in the cities did start to improve). The long-term problem (which the activists tried to draw attention to, but failed) was that the WCG weren't actually doing anything about the source of the pollution (in the Preserves), thus only delaying a complete environmental breakdown. In this view, the BioCrisis predated the Uprising, but the ACCs were built after it, systematically but hastily (to present the WCG's institution as timely and vital, and to silence the riots). I still like the idea of the ACCs doubling as power plants, so perhaps the ACCs were simply built on top of existing power plants (the WCG only added the towering air-cleaning tiers, and/or enhanced the generators, but left some of the architecture untouched -- that would explain why ACC levels look a bit Frankensteinian at places). --geyser (talk) 01:17, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

The ACCs might have been part of the means to power for the WCG. In this theory, the construction of the ACCs was part of what bankrupted the nations, paving the way for debt forgiveness through assimilation. Who's to say that the whole framing of the BioCrisis and promotion of the ACCs wasn't partly a deliberate plot by the WCG to rise to power? Of course they would have been called something else before they became the (not-quite-entire-)world government, but the proto-WCG could still have been the ones to design the ACCs, explaining their uniformity (of course, it's our assumption that they're uniform). This makes the timing of events much more comfortable than imagining the enormous ACCs being built in hundreds of locations between 2012 and 2014. --Iritscen (talk) 02:03, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

The Scratch

It does feel like something is missing from Hasegawa's given explanation of why he shot Jamie. If you're in love with someone (or even if not), and they're in pain, intensely suffering, your instinct is to get them to the hospital. You don't say, "Gee, that looks painful. Not sure if you're going to recover or not. But I don't have any bandages or painkillers, so, uh, you know… (pulling out pistol)". Nobody thinks that way. --Iritscen (talk) 20:55, 6 June 2020 (CEST)

Mukade was in a hurry, so he botched that part up. Either that, or Konoko can't remember it right while dreaming. For a more serious take, see below. --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

I noted a while back (somewhere) that Jamie's infection, as depicted in the Polaroids (Memoroids?) looks an awful lot like the veins running up Barabas' head. I also speculated that the plant that infected Jamie either *was* the Daodan organism or had the Daodan processes inside of it. After all, what do you think Hasegawa studied later to find out what killed her?* If that's the case, perhaps something worse was happening to Jamie than simply being in intense pain… something that had to be stopped, for her own sake. --Iritscen (talk) 20:55, 6 June 2020 (CEST)
*I see that you think that Hasegawa had to abscond with Jamie's body from a morgue later. It's much simpler and more obvious to suggest that he took a sample from her body before he parted with it, or that he took a sample from the Wilderness Preserve as I suggested above. He may have been grief-stricken, but he was still a scientist. --Iritscen (talk) 20:55, 6 June 2020 (CEST)

Yes, Barabas is livid and veiny (and so is Mutant Muro, but perhaps only because Mai is hallucinating, and Barabas is the closest thing to Imago that she's ever seen). As for the polaroids, at the very least there's no reason for Konoko to imagine that they looked anything like Barabas's "unstable symbiosis" (not that she knows anything about there being a "symbiosis" at that point). So, unless there are some actual polaroids thrown in (close-up pictures that Hasegawa took? crime scene shots?), the pictures we see are just Konoko's imagination playing along with Hasegawa's dramatic narrative -- no more, no less. Implying some subliminal knowledge from perusing the CD... I'd rather not. --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

That said, sure, maybe Hasegawa's not telling us everything -- or maybe sparing us some details, rather. Indeed it is possible that Jamie was headed for a fate worse than death, turning into something unspeakable -- like a screaming chunk of meat. Bones melted, eyes gone, skin coming off, but some of the brain/spine still functioning... Some of Jamie's lovely features still (barely) recognizable, and the last remains of her strength as a person being channelled into a drawn-out mix of wheezes and bubbles... Sorry, was that your lunch? --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

Well that's a morbid take on it. But we could just as easily assume she was transforming into an out-of-control Imago-type. --Iritscen (talk) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

As for taking a sample from Jamie's body -- the Hasegawas were traveling lightly, mostly planning on taking pictures, by the looks of it. If they had brought small bio-hazard-proof containers just in-case, then indeed he might have taken a probe right there and then (that's not mentioned in the "Murder or Mercy" article, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen). Without a proper container, he'd have to carry the "thing" wrapped up in clothes -- not very scientific. And best not think about showing it to Kerr later on... --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

Since we're talking about the polaroids (oh wait, are we?), what about Hasegawa hugging Jamie's infected body like he's desperately trying to contract "it" from her, whatever "it" is? If the scene really happened, it's very unscientific indeed -- or maybe by then Hasegawa had realized that he was somehow immune to the stuff? Could it be that Hasegawa was already a symbiote by then? (muahahaha) Ahem. --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

As for taking samples from the Wilderness early on (from Jamie's body and from The Nightmare That Killed Her a.k.a. The Flowering Shrub), and not having to scout for samples later... That works if the Wilderness is all "one and the same" (as you seem to imply in SoW), but from the TNZ perspective (and the apriori perspective of Hasegawa in any case), you can't be sure about the uniform nature of the Wilderness unless you take more than one sample in more that one corner of more than one Zone. They had barely walked in when the scratch happened, so at the very least Hasegawa would have gone back for a bio-hazard suit and pushed towards the center of that same Zone. At least that's the kind of approach that would have made sense to me. --geyser (talk) 19:03, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

Hasegawa wouldn't know if the Wilderness as a whole was saturated with the Daodan, but he wouldn't need to, nor does it need to be the case in TNZ. The logical thing to do, even while freshly in grief over Jamie, would have been to collect some of the plant that scratched her to take it back to the lab. As long as that plant contained the Daodan, it doesn't matter if anything else did. Or maybe he simply went back into the Preserve later, as you suggested. My main point was that the whole scenario can be a lot simpler than you were making it, unless you just preferred the drama of said scenario. --Iritscen (talk) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

Daodan Genesis

"Your father and I were criminals, funded by the Syndicate.

...and still nowhere close to working on the Daodan Chrysalis as we know it."

What do you mean here? Is not Kerr saying that their work on the Daodan Chrysalis was the activity funded by the Syndicate? --Iritscen (talk) 20:55, 6 June 2020 (CEST)

I mean that, at the moment when he and Kerr were head-hunted into the Syndicate, Hasegawa had only a broad idea of what he was going to focus on -- far from having isolated the Chrysalis and running systematic experiments on it. In the end, of course, it was all part of the research that led to the Daodan, so Kerr isn't lying either. --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

He (Kerr) is probably a bit coy when he says "we couldn't get backup from any legitimate source" -- as if they had applied for a grant with the WCG first. With Hasegawa's past as an activist and a murderer, it seems more likely that they went directly to the Syndicate, possibly seizing a head-hunting opportunity to elude trial/prosecution as I described. --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

There is a "completely different" possibility that Hasegawa had been working on the Chrysalis for years, and killed Jamie when she found out (because he's all evil and wants everyone to choke on dead air and foul water, muahahaha). Ahem. My point is, the initial research probably didn't have "Daodan" and "Chrysalis" written all over it. --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

I'm not following your reason for thinking that they didn't have a firm idea already in mind about creating the Chrysalis by the time they went to the Syndicate. Why apply for work at a criminal organization if they didn't, and why would the Syndicate be interested? The Syndicate funded their work because they wanted the Chrysalis. --Iritscen (talk) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

The Elusive Pathogen

"Somewhat alarmingly, 'investigators fail to identify the DNA trace of the virus' -- which may mean that there is no trace at all, or that there is a DNA, but one that is unknown to science. English speakers please help: is it the latter?"

This just means that the virus could not be identified by its DNA. Almost as if it was something alien to Earth… --Iritscen (talk) 20:55, 6 June 2020 (CEST)

Oh, OK, so an undocumented DNA trace rather than no DNA trace at all. To me that's not necessarily alien. Can just be a remnant from pre-WCG biowarfare that mutated out of control and/or was too classified for the CDC to know about. --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

Right, I shouldn't have put it that way. In fact having DNA would probably rule out extraterrestrial life. But you already know my theory about the Daodan being from Earth, but from another epoch. --Iritscen (talk) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

The Quest For Resilience

Any basis for your speculation that the Chrysalis is related to the Screaming Cells? --Iritscen (talk) 20:55, 6 June 2020 (CEST)

I am not saying they're related. Screamers were important for Bungie West's Oni2, that's why I don't feel inclined to trivialize them. But the only common points between a Screamer and a Daodan is that they're both peeking/leaking into our world from the Phase, and that they're both immaterial and noisy (à la St. Elmo's fire). A Screamer's sentience (at least as far as we're concerned) seems limited to "Screamer Hungry! Must Eat.", whereas the Daodan (for all intents and purposes) seems smart enough to regulate cancer (the Chrysalis eats you up from the inside, but somehow you are still "whole", physically able and more or less sane at any given moment -- that's nothing short of miraculous). --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

The other similarity I pointed out recently (not here yet, but on that other page) is that the Screamers are seemingly eager to go back to the Phase where they belong, and won't stick around looking for food unless they're "pinned" by the warhead (M3GMw9_warhead). It's this kind of device that I call a "phase hook" -- something that Oni's scientists use either for "fishing" an entity out of the Phase or to keep it from going back. The Daodan, too, would vanish into the Phase (and leave Konoko with an inert Chrysalis) unless it was "hooked" onto her body somehow. Kind of like trailing Daodan glow particles die out after a while, and new ones are generated only inside Konoko's body where the Chrysalis is. In my view, the Chrysalis is the "hook" -- cell-sized transdimensional portals that allow the Daodan to come through and do its work (powering the symbiosis and coordinating it). The more extended the "integration" is, the more densely the portals are distributed in Konoko's body, the larger the energy throughput and informational bandwidth between the "phase god" (Daodan) and its "proxy" (the Chrysalis). Not forcing new terms/concepts onto you, just trying alternative wording, but really saying the same thing as before. Or maybe I'm still brainstorming. I dunno LOL. --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

Makes sense, broadly. I've already been playing with the concepts of energy bandwidth and information bandwidth; see the section "Is 'Imago' really Imago?" in my Polylectiloquy and also Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Story#Wilderness. --Iritscen (talk) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

Accidental Discovery

Just because I'll never stop pointing it out, E.C. Segar's 1936 comic strip is the first hard-SF example of a xenoimpregnation, giving a process which explained the merging of an entity from our world (in this case, an African Hooey Hound, specifically, her reproductive cells) with a higher-dimensional life form. --Iritscen (talk) 20:55, 6 June 2020 (CEST)

That's nice, yes. "Life cells" and "germination" do not necessarily refer to the impregnation of reproductive cells, though, so that's your own contribution (Segar-Scen theory?). --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

I'll have to reply to the rest of this page later, but I just wanted to say that I don't think that's my contribution. Note that the phrase referring to the Hooey Hound is "free life cells", and that they "combined at a favorable time". Sounds like a she-dog in estrus, except phrased in delicate terms for a 1930s audience. I was led to that interpretation by reading about endogenous retroviruses. Frankly it's mind-blowing that someone wrote this over 80 years ago. (P.S.: My contribution is linking the supposedly-fictional "African Hooey Hound" to the Basenji, the world's oldest dog breed, which took a fair bit of research and I don't think anyone has publicly made the connection before. Segar was using a term that is now an anachronism, almost lost in time.) --Iritscen (talk) 21:37, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

Researching 1930s comics is a honorable endeavour. I will refrain from criticism henceforth. My last two cents, though, since "hooey" is a joke word, kind of like Watterson's "Hamster Huey and the Gooey Kablooie", how can you be sure that it's the actual Basenji that those fictional characters are talking about, and not, say, the undocumented common ancestor of the Basenji and the Dingo? --geyser (talk) 22:33, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

P.S. A propos mind-blowing stuff written NN years ago, I'd (re)recommend Lem's Summa Technologiae (1964) as a must-read, but AFAIK it still doesn't have an English translation. --geyser (talk) 22:56, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

"Hooey" is a slang term meaning "nonsense", not to be confused with the first name Huey. But in this case the name is onomatopoetic, as the Basenji makes a distinct "hooooo-ey" call. This is quite different from the dingo's "arrooo". Also, note the curled tail on the Basenji and its propensity for standing on its back feet, which inspired Eugene the Jeep's appearance and behavior. Segar would not have been thinking of a now-extinct ancestor species; it's only recent DNA evidence that links them to the dingo. My guess is that dog breeders had not settled on the name Basenji at the time of the strip, when the dogs were just being imported from Africa (they were introduced to the U.S. in the 1930s). --Iritscen (talk) 23:12, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

Hm. OK. (I wasn't suggesting "Huey" as a joke word, rather "gooey" and "kablooie".) Not by the way at all, I tried to think of older examples of "xenoimpregnation" in popular culture (fiction). Couldn't think of non-human females, but the Immaculate Conception came to mind, and Zeus's mortal children, and probably many more in Hindu culture and whatnot. Sure, that kind of stuff is never presented as a kindred "life cell" from a "fourth-dimensional [sic] world", but the estrus part is there, at least. --geyser (talk) 00:50, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

Good point, I suppose we'd have to count impregnation by god if we're really trying to go back. (Little bit of trivia for you, the teaching of the Immaculate Conception is actually that Mary was born without sin; no relation to the teaching of the Virgin Birth. I'm willing to bet even a lot of Catholics don't realize this.) --Iritscen (talk) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

Indeed I meant the Virgin Birth thing, although I wouldn't say the Immaculate Conception has no relation whatsoever. It's the same Mary, and there were discussions about how maybe the IC wasn't just about the miraculous lack of original sin, but also about the lack of personal sin (by choice) right up to the Virgin Birth, and how maybe Mary was conceived without Anne and Joachim actually doing it (or liking it)... But you're still right, of course, I meant the Virgin Birth. --geyser (talk) 10:36, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

<end of page>

wind whistling
Is it too much to ask for a category on newly-created pages? --Iritscen (talk) 20:55, 6 June 2020 (CEST)

It's work in progress at this point, for your eyes and 'Dox's. Your SoW stuff doesn't even turn up in search, so there's that. Once I consider that TNZ is showable (at this rate it shouldn't take long... well, maybe a couple of months), I'll not only cat it, I'll link to it from Oni2, from every Added Value section, and maybe from the Main page as well :P --geyser (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2020 (CEST)

It's okay, I fixed it :-p There's really no reason for a page to go uncategorized, ever. --Iritscen (talk) 02:59, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

Tell that to all the Konoko images, and to your BGi writeups that don't show up in search. If slapping a cat on this particular page made you happy here and now, then I'm glad too. ^_^ --geyser (talk) 10:36, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about when you say that. My work is as search-indexed as anything else on the wiki. The BGI pages show up in a search for "BGI", are in the BGI category, and are linked to from BGI and AE:BGI. It would indeed be nice if all the images were categorized by the character(s) they depict. I called for that work to be done on Current events, but haven't had the time for it, nor has anyone else shown an inclination to start helping with the wiki while you've been away. Thank you for at least cat.ing the Konoko pics. --Iritscen (talk) 14:45, 8 June 2020 (CEST)