AE talk:Trailer

From OniGalore
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Geyser, I may be able to record that sequence at a better quality. Increasing the resolution of the texture used may help too. Gumby 01:30, 28 July 2008 (CEST)

Hmm, didn't see this until just now. I assume you must have seen my trailer draft, geyser (linked to from my User page). Do you still prefer to see the trailer done this way, having seen that? --Iritscen 03:28, 28 July 2008 (CEST)

Gumby, feel free to re-record that scene. I believe I made it easy enough to replicate so it can be recorded in no time. I also think that sequence works quite nicely all the way to the "Oni" logo (also a placeholder for original Oni footage), except for the cheap-looking titles and the lack of animation for the logo itself (the large size will be OK as long as it pops up in some drop-dead-gorgeous fashion)... As for the textures of the glowing rings, on a good GFX card, with antialiasing and smart texturing and such it should look quite decent. If not, we can always rerecord this one scene with better textures closer to the deadline.
Iritscen, about your take on the trailer: I was notified of the forum thread by Gumby; other than that, I've been pretty much absent from everywhere including this wiki, barely ever looking at Recentchanges or such). As for your draft, the short answer is yes. I prefer "my" idea of the trailer over "yours". I have three major things to say and three minor ones.
Minor thing number zero
overcapitalization. "Coming Soon..." and "Watch For It"? WTF?
Heh. I am not too attached to those two titles either. Watch For It is kinda corny and Coming Soon is arguably superfluous. --Iritscen 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)
Minor thing number one
"we've been busy for the past 7 years and 7 months"... Huh. Not like I don't respect the early Oni modders, but organized modding as we know it didn't happen until a couple of years ago (and as for the "we've been busy", we're still nowhere close to productive teamwork if you ask me).
I wondered what the reaction to that line would be. As with the other opening text, I threw it in without any forethought just so I could present my draft (not knowing about yours at the time). The "seven years, seven months" sounds good, but admittedly I was shooting in the dark because I wasn't around back then and didn't know what was being done. So yeah, I won't defend that. --Iritscen 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)
Minor thing number two
preposterous release date. It's the trailer that will "air" by the end of August, and that if we're VERY VERY VERY lucky and hard-working and cooperative and inspired and talented and and and... and as for AE, I wouldn't expect it to come in time even for the 8th anniversary in January... that's why I stopped calling it the 7th Anniversary Edition a long time ago, preferring "Anniversary Edition" or "Edition". But that doesn't matter. Whenever we'll release it, it will still have Bungie's one ond only seven in the main menu background. "Anniversary Edition: it's a seven" - even if we release it 2 or 3 years from now.
I don't see why we can't at least get the trailer out soon; I mean, I wasn't planning personally on making a trailer that was exhaustive, just a nice sneak peek at some of what the AE may or may not offer (since what doesn't get packaged with the AE can be released on its own, so it's not all that dishonest to advertise those mods too, since they will run off the Edition framework). I am a little disappointed at your pushing back of the Edition. I think the first time I ever contacted you, by PM, I suggested that you release iterative Editions, one a year, with the latest mods available as of that time. You saw that as a lot of work, but I saw it as a simple matter of slapping some files together that were already done, and releasing the package once a year. I still would like you to consider releasing what you have now (or in the near future), and improving on that later. Just use version numbers or years ("Anniversary Edition '08") so people can keep them straight. --Iritscen 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)
You know I used to make releases before January, but I've also been paying attention to the feedback, and it just so happens that some of the features so far are flawed (buggy/crashy) and/or controversial. I know lame when I see lame, and I will *not* showcase or officially release lame (or controversial), because that would be the end of us. We need more thorough checking (e.g., Loser's modded TRAM cause memory corruption and Loser is apparently too busy with new stuff to double-check or fix that ^_^), and we need modular installation options (i.e., a truly powerful frontend for OniSplit on both PC and Mac, and probably an OniSplit 1.0 core to go with it). We don't have that now, and I don't know when we will, so I don't even want to think of a release date now. Just to make it clear again: the minimal set of AE is a solid modding mainframe, and a couple of equally solid upgrades (preferably modular/optional).
Okay, I take your point about not introducing mods that corrupt memory/add controversial features (knockdown mod, anyone? ;-). And we see eye-to-eye on what the Edition is, as described in your last sentence above. Not sure if it answers my question, though, as to whether the "extended" features, mods that run off the AE framework, will be in the trailer. --Iritscen 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)
Doesn't my stuff right below answer your question either? Just what extended features are we talking about, and how random can we allow them to be? I'd say one of two glimpses of totally random modding is OK, but otherwise the trailer will fall apart. --geyser 14:35, 30 July 2008 (CEST)
I like specificity. Check the Trailer page for my list, and let's work from that to determine what will be in the trailer. --Iritscen 15:32, 30 July 2008 (CEST)
As for the more or less random (and lame?) mods cluttering up the trailer, just what kind of attention do you think they'd get us? We're not making a trailer for OniSplit-powered goofing, for sake's sake. No one needs a trailer that doesn't look awesome, so if it's not awesome by the August 21 deadline, I'll postpone it. I hope I won't have to though. --geyser 13:50, 29 July 2008 (CEST)
Well, I wouldn't show anything that's not awesome either, or at least cool. And it's interesting to suddenly see a deadline I had no inkling of ^_^' Not that it would be hard to meet the deadline on the editing side, as long as we decide soon what exactly we will show and then get that footage recorded pronto (I've already received some footage I wanted to use, in the "trailer" thread on the forum, but I think I need to get a better idea of which features you want to show before I go to the trouble of incorporating that footage). --Iritscen 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)
And it's interesting to suddenly see a deadline I had no inkling of Whoever made your trailer draft was fully aware of the "7 years and 7 months", so who the blam is this joke on? Re: I'll try to set up a brain dump of wanted scenes tonight. For now, may I just advise everyone involved or interested to have a second look at this, which I think was understressed in the forum thread:
 Basically a sequence of feature highlights, each of them rather short, announced by similar-looking full-screen titles. 
 Nice-looking and varied locations are a plus (e.g., if you want to show new AI skills, don't do it all in the Warehouse). 
 Content doesn't necessary have to be in-game Oni (can be an external render or an editor view), as long as it looks good. 
 Animated video is not a must (e.g., an ultra-quick slideshow is fine). Varied viewing angles and camera effects welcome.
geyser 14:35, 30 July 2008 (CEST)
Major thing number zero
the music. Hunt is sluggish and Pursuit also lacks some energy. As you can see from wiki history and maybe even OCF history, the "Ambient Suite - No One Left To Trust" mix came up quite some time ago (it's been brewing practically since January AFAIR). NOLTT is typical Power Of Seven, mainstream enough to sound familiar to those who "hate techno", powerful enough to drive an action-packed trailer, and to top it off it's a track from Oni's early days, which didn't make it either into Oni or onto the promotional CD. Ambient Suite is a nice mixing effort on the part of Salvatori or O'Donnell or whoever, it features unfamiliar samples that don't appear ingame, and its movements allow for creatively synchronized titles. I have always been intrigued by the redundant intro, so I naturally came to use the twin explosions as the basic markers. As for the ending, I didn't actually sync it at all: Ambient Suite is just muted while NOLTT plays, and then kicks back in. So the music for the end titles is just a lucky coincidence.
...I guess this is just a difference in taste. I won't go into why I prefer my selections in music, though. Since they don't seem to work for you like they do for me, I would be willing to mix the trailer with the music you used. --Iritscen 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)
Major thing number one
your draft is overly verbose at the beginning, which can be come across as long-winded, anticlimatic, or even aggressively "commercial", depending on the amount and type of words you use. Sure we want to advertise a bit, but we don't want to sound like those release-period reviews that are actually part of a game's promotional campaign. Actually, your trailer is pretty much a manifesto of our "team", and it's not bad... for a manifesto... but I think we need something lighter and more artful at the same time. Something closer to Oni's 1998 trailer if you like: let the visuals speak for themselves as much as possible. I'm not saying my intro is perfect, but I like how the sound samples match the phases of the footage, and there's a hidden "let's go back in time" meaning to the reversed cutscene: in order to have a second look at Oni, start where it all ended, literally... and then rewind a bit.
I should have mentioned earlier that I really like the intro you used — it's a good visual, and not bogged down in words like my intro, although it's potentially spoiler-ish for those who never played Oni. Does that matter? Not necessarily, if we're aiming this at existing Oni fans. --Iritscen 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)
Given the lack of backstory, I think it's your typical teaser: people are intrigued by the flow of energy, then see the transmitter, and then take a short look at the back of some super-chick surrounded by dead bodies, somehow connected to the transmitter: that said, I'm pretty sure many people discovered Oni after watching the spoilerful Resurrection; after all, the fun of Oni is mostly about the gameplay, and you can't really spoil that; oh, and the plot is largely understated, so there's not much to spoil there anyway ^_^
Yeah, I suppose you're right. --Iritscen 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)
Major thing number two
I don't think much of the side-by-side comparison of the highlighted upgrades. Specifically, while we should certainly do our best to make the Edition's content/gameplay look awesome, it's not a good move at all to try and make Oni look dull/dumb by contrast. That's why I opted for a quick overview of Oni's original awesomeness (with a focus on the unique gameplay and a little bit on the pseudo-anime imagery: that latter one to match the kawaii feel of the music), followed by a 1999-trailer-styled mash-up. Some intense, uncommented footage at the start; then a sequence of thematic highlights (with minimal comments); and again some intense stuff right before the end titles.
I agree with your concept of the overall pacing. However, if we don't point out the differences then people are missing what we've changed; it just looks like we're advertising Oni, which has been out for seven years, and isn't owned by us. I think we need to make it clear that the Edition is a specific set of mods, and why it's worth looking at. There's no harm in pointing out flaws in such an old game, either. --Iritscen 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)
On the use of "kawaii" here: the second part of the intro uses a pentatonic Asian-ish theme. This section also comes across as cheerful and humorous in a "cute" way after the somewhat dramatic opening.
The trailer is not the place for pointing out flaws and making them part of our showcase (with booooorrrrriiiiinnnnggg footage as Loser puts it). So what if Oni's original AI sucked at pursuit, melee or dodging gunfire - that's not new, and it's not the exact point why people shoud check out the Edition, is it? The point is that in the Edition, they do behave in a realistic and challenging way, and that's what we want the people to see. Of course, before the footage there'll be a minimal comment saying "faster AI" or something but interleaving before-after and sucks-rocks is anticlimatic IMO. If our stuff looks so awesome and fits in so well that it feels like it's always been there, all the better. If you want to add more insight into why such-and-such feature is a breakthrough, YouTube lets you add annotations to the video after you upload it. Something like "original AI didn't dodge projectiles at all" or "original AI ran much slower than the player". You won't waste time on "artificially lame" footage of pre-Edition Oni, and you won't introduce breaks in our non-stop display of awesomeness ^_^ --geyser 13:50, 29 July 2008 (CEST)
I could argue that using Pursuit, and timing the cuts between before-and-after to its rhythm had a good effect, but it's true that I was going for a slower feel. I'm not one of those fast-cutting, rock-music-blaring kind of editors, I prefer a cooler, more composed approach, such as what you see in the 1999 trailer. But I think I can find a balance between what you and I conceived of. Give me a bit to throw together a draft that uses your opening & music and see how you like it. I am not at full productive capacity yet, post-move, but soon my office will be set up and I can grind something out. --Iritscen 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)
Off-topic but not quite
As for what you're doing to Motoko, it may be a good idea to show your results-so-far and report your problems ASAP. Don't let your pride become a major time sink. Also, I haven't gotten back at you on Mutant Griffin: do you want me to, or should I have a look at your latest fixes first?
geyser 23:59, 28 July 2008 (CEST)
I don't think I made any fixes to his geometry since you called him a mutant. I still would like an explanation on that.
Iritscen 03:07, 29 July 2008 (CEST)
I have an email draft lying around but it's not quite finished. Basically, it's about how the OBJ wasn't symmetric in the first place (the head is rotated a bit in the idle pose), about how you broke the mesh apart at the seams when subdividing, and then about how you didn't apply the exact same transformation to left-right vertices in a lot of places, notably on the forehead, whereby he ended up with quite a few asymmetric "horns" (large bumps). Those flaws are all the more noticeable with flat shading, but they scream with the ingame Gouraud as well, especially during the closeups for which the model was intended.
His head is supposed to show some of the definition of the eyebrows that comes from the skull, but let's not gum up this page with that discussion. Post something on "Image_talk:Poly_Mods-Griffin_Notes.png" when you find the time and I can respond to it. --Iritscen 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)
What about Motoko?
geyser 13:50, 29 July 2008 (CEST)
Motoko images coming soon. You'll like them, I added some extra polygons just for you ^_^ --Iritscen 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST)

Iritscen: Can you mark on the Trailer page which scenes you already have. Also, as you make progress on the trailer, perhaps you can post it on YouTube, but make it private and just invite certain ones to view it and make comments. This will keep it more of a surprise when it is released. EdT 05:23, 2 August 2008 (CEST)

Yes, thanks for the reminder and the suggestion, I will act on those today. --Iritscen 14:48, 2 August 2008 (CEST)

Just an update: I am not dead, in case anyone was wondering. I have set up my home office and am funnelling my free time into the video starting now (don't worry, I am fairly fast at this kind of thing). Just keep feeding me video and we can have something by the 20th. If possible, I will still try to record high-quality video to replace the clips that don't meed my standards, but I will work with what I have on hand for now. --Iritscen 00:18, 10 August 2008 (CEST)

Okay, I've uploaded a partial trailer draft as a private YouTube video, as was recommended earlier. For now I've only attempted to add EdT and geyser. There seems to be an issue (that many people have) with getting this "private" thing to work, so, guys, check your YouTube Inbox for a friend invite. Until you let me be your special friend, I can't add you for any private videos. I am breaking all kinds of laws of nature and common sense by being up this late, so I'm going to bed, but hopefully YT will be more cooperative tomorrow. --Iritscen 08:05, 14 August 2008 (CEST)

P.S.: geyser, when you do get to see it, don't be too hard on the editing, the icing has to come after the cake, and besides, there's a lot of refining that I can only do once the real footage is in place. To do it now would be a total waste of time. Maybe I will start recording footage myself tomorrow to help that part move along faster. --Iritscen 08:07, 14 August 2008 (CEST)

I don't intend to criticize anything but the basic ingredients of the video at this point. As for this private YT video mess, come on... a video file on or or wherever would have come so much more naturally (to me, at least). I even had half a mind about not accepting your friend invite, but then decided not to be a dick. Oh, and thanks in advance for your contribution, but I personally will have big-time real-life priorities during the next week or two, so I highly doubt we'll meet the deadline now. So, no hurry ^_^ --geyser 09:57, 14 August 2008 (CEST)

On the subject of deadlines, how far ahead of the actual Edition release do we want the trailer to appear publicly? Not too far ahead, right? Because then people will drop by the forums, ask about the Edition, and if it's not out yet, they might leave (kids these days have short attention spans, you know ;-). --Iritscen 21:03, 14 August 2008 (CEST)
None of my commitments (present, past, or future) are subject to a fanboy-friendly strategy... People with short attention spans will get what they deserve. --geyser 22:49, 22 August 2008 (CEST)

Just a little note to all who have contributed video... within the next couple hours, I'll upload the latest draft (see AE:Trailer#Iritscen's draft), and it is only that, a rough draft. But it's the first time I filled the entire space of the trailer. And I have to say that there is lots of you guys' video that I couldn't fit into it. So, I hope no one is hurt if their hard work wasn't used; it's simply not possible to show everything. But please know that everything you recorded gave me more options to work with, and that's a real help in and of itself. Then, too, geyser might very well tell me to change out a bunch of clips for other clips before the next draft, so it's not like, if you don't see something of yours in the trailer yet, it's definitely not getting used. Heck, we could make two trailers with all the stuff we've got! Thanks again, Iritscen 03:11, 1 September 2008 (CEST)

Very nice, you need to post the link to the trailer on OCF. One thing I noted, the transition between the old and new gameplay with the words "seven years later" takes about 9 seconds, to me its too long and takes away the pace of the trailer. Also, there are 2 scenes with theTelekinetic bracelet. But overall, I like the pace of the trailer. Thanks for your work! EdT 05:13, 1 September 2008 (CEST)
>_> You didn't use any of my footage...Other than that, you need to watch the pauses in the beginning. My mind automatically puts commas at every pause :P. Also, the ending says "" "" You need to change the "" to "" Gumby 06:18, 1 September 2008 (CEST)
"the transition [...] takes about 9 seconds". Yeah, it is pretty long, but in that respect I was sort of a slave to the soundtrack; it works best with the audio when it lasts that long, plus, in combination with the slowing, monochroming footage before that, you're supposed to feel like time has stopped for Oni... then, suddenly, things burst back into action.
"there are 2 scenes with theTelekinetic bracelet." Yeah, and back-to-back, too. Definitely not what I intended to do. I wanted to show Muro with the shotgun, but it so happens I was using the TK bracelet myself. I never actually got him in the air, interestingly. It's hard to get it to work at all, and it was impossible with Muro. But yeah, I have to rearrange the clips or use a different one.
"You didn't use any of my footage". Rest assured it wasn't on purpose. I don't know who contributed what, all the videos have been renamed or even reformatted before going into FCE. If you see that I neglected to show a modding feature that you recorded footage of, let me know. I did have to skip some mods for time's sake, but I can be persuaded to change my mind about what to use.
"you need to watch the pauses in the beginning". I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by pauses... is it the text in the beginning, saying, "In 2001", etc. etc.?
"You need to change the to" Definitely; I ran out of time to do it in this draft, but I have to remake that text, and when I do, it will direct the viewer to --Iritscen 16:20, 1 September 2008 (CEST)
It was just OTA and One Small Mistake footage, no big deal. ^_^ Yes, those pauses. Gumby 16:48, 1 September 2008 (CEST)
Oops! I saw you post the OSM video and forgot to add it to my "palette" in Final Cut. That's definitely something I meant to show under the "new challenges" section.
"Yes, those pauses." Then I have to agree with you. Here, too, I can't speed things up without going out of sync with the audio, but I have another solution that prevents the text from feeling, like, it's supposed, to be read, like this :) Ultimately I needed to remake that opening video anyway, so I will just throw in the new approach to the text, too. By the way, is it possible we can provide a better-looking particle for the dish waves, one that's sharper? --Iritscen 19:10, 1 September 2008 (CEST)
Let me take a quick looksee into that. Gumby 22:45, 1 September 2008 (CEST)

Intro and v6 draft

Preliminary note to Iritscen, on the Matrix-ish tickers: 1) save them for the "seven years later" shot, they're welcome time killers there and mostly distractive elsewhere; 2) make sure they're not just a bunch of katakana and hiragana gibberish - they've supposed to spell out certain taglines in Japanese. --geyser 15:00, 16 September 2008 (CEST)

Excellent, thanks to you and Gumby for the high-quality footage. You also did what I was planning to do with the opening text to avoid it being too drawn-out, as Gumby had pointed out. I can't promise that I will use the version with effects, but I will closely mimic it.
"1) save them for the "seven years later" shot"
In other words, you don't want them behind the word "Oni"? I actually preferred the way it looked before, fading to "Oni" with the tickers, as opposed to putting "Oni" on top of Konoko; it just feels a little weird to stick her head in the "O", but if you want it done that way, I'll do it. Just so you know, I wasn't going to use the tickers anywhere else, but you may very well have a point about putting them in with the "seven years later" text, that part is pretty boring without anything else to look at. (P.S., don't forget that the v5 draft was recreating the image from 0:40 in the '99 trailer, for nostalgic/tribute purposes, although I left out the glyph by accident, it was supposed to be in there too.) --Iritscen 16:15, 16 September 2008 (CEST)
"2) make sure they're not just a bunch of katakana and hiragana gibberish"
Don't worry, I did a fair amount of Babelfish-browsing of Japanese sites before I found the text I wanted. It's quite a coherent paragraph, devoted to describing the game. You'll even find Konoko's name in kana if you squint hard enough. --Iritscen 16:15, 16 September 2008 (CEST)
Oh, geyser, you said in your edit summary that you were working on mini-drafts, but I might save you some work if you wait for the next draft (it'll be done today or tomorrow, I think). I'm replacing a number of clips with ones that look/work better, so you might be working from outdated information by the time you post anything else. Just a heads-up. --Iritscen 17:38, 16 September 2008 (CEST)
On the intro (since it's our only definite segment, let's get it over with)
  • The initial "Blam!" is there for a number of good reasons, so just keep it. Feel free to suggest a better opening shot, but the audio is staying. --geyser 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)
  • You didn't do justice to the opening text. The supposedly white letters have an odd interlace-ish look while fading in (WTF? is that some subtle effect of yours, or does FCE suck?) and they fade in a bit too fast; the way I see it, the fade-in time should be about the same as the time it would take to Pete Stacker (or whoever) to say it out loud (either solemn or somber and sarcastic, but not hasty). That, and the pause before "like no other" ought to be a wee bit longer (but much shorter than the one before "was born", as you noticed). Also, I am limited to fading, but you ought to be able to set up some glow or blur (nothing too dramatic, just less plain-looking). --geyser 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)
On the title, section headers and tickers.
The tickers will be unreadable unless they scroll past a uniform background (like, black), much slower and for a longer time - the "seven years later" moment comes readily to mind. As for the kana: in the original tickers, they were interleaved with binary sequences, for readability (basically just put a bunch of zeroes and ones after every sentence or "word", or dots, or any kind of obvious gap). --geyser 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)
The huge Oni is OK on its own (apart from the fact that upscaled images look worse than in 1:1). However, its interaction with the previous scene is awkward (just as awkward as the head-centered O, if not more). For a title that is overlayed with action, it's aggressively big and all the more anticlimatic as it conceals the most intense part of Konoko's movement. The way I see it, whenever there is an overlay, the text should either be as discreet as possible, or interact with the scene in some way. Arguably, the head in the O may have been a bad idea. Ideally, the logo should appear gradually (and unobtrusively) during the final phase of the ecstasy, as if materializing from the energy she sets in motion all around her. Also, the sloped part of the logo is supposed to be aligned with the perspective. Something like THIS... --geyser 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)
Also, scrupulously mimicking the main title and "section header" style of the 1998 trailer seems abusive to me. I'd rather use something both simple and original: ultra-fast pacing won't work too well with drawn-out, fancy-styled section headers, especially the way they blow up in the viewer's face and stay there, taking valuable screen time from actual action. See note above about unobtrusiveness. Also note that "c" and "e" look very much alike with your current font and effects, which is a no-no. Either pick a different font (Impact is the best basic font I can think of though) or, better, remove the nostalgic interlace-ish effects. --geyser 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)
On v6 in general (I can't afford exhaustive verbal feedback, let alone a debate; just a few words here)
Some good scenes in there, but overall it's still anticlimatic (due to poor/nonexistent audio-video synchronization and/or mediocre on-screen action). It doesn't get any worse than the "dead comrade" scene, but that's of little comfort ^_^ Most of my objections are beyond verbal commentary, so I will just provide you with short drafts or storyboards when I can. Below are just a few points that I think need stressing. --geyser 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)
  • After the No One Left To Trust soundtrack kicks in, there ought to be a randomly awesome mixed-bag section without an introduction of any kind (except for the "seven years later"). Right now, you have a (static -_- ) white Spartan chaingunning at the (static -_- ) camera through glass. That's random enough, sure, but it only lasts a split second (and it's static -_- ) and the next moment you start shooting taglines at the viewer... That's strange. Why don't you move some segments of OTA gameplay and gmsly's mod over to the start? Under those thematic headers of yours, they may look more or less out of place, but in opening/closing mixed bags they'll always be at home; and that'll also help you avoid putting three sequences of gmsly's mod one after the other - that, too, is strange. --geyser 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)
  • Your coverage of "modding power" was surprising, which is probably a good thing. But there's stuff to edit and polish even there. For example, I'd avoid showing editor views of ripped levels: my current impression is that they scream "big-time EULA violation!", at least if there is no added value; I will try and provide replacement footage using one of our new levels. Another issue is Motoko. Her hair still looks like someone barfed a bunch of polygons together, and her face also looks quite rough for its polycount. So I'd think twice before showing her if I were you... just a thought ^_^ --geyser 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)
  • The ending sucks. My first viewing was a casual one, and I honestly didn't notice the bomber at all. For me it was just another drawn-out OTA scene shot with a boring static camera. The falling bomber and the subsequent explosion are actually very ignorable (people falling, things exploding - just how is that different from the previous minute and a half? ^_^ If you want to show a bomber going off, you have to really show the bomber going off. There are plenty of ways to capture the explosion in a visually stunning way: you can wear a shield, or go into overpower, or "flee... sexily" like in THIS video at 2:30. And to top it off the sync of your ending with the music is awful. After the explosion, there's almost a second of intense soundtrack and zero onscreen action. You could have synced the explosion with the end of the music, for instance. But I think the ending needs to be much more intense than that sequence anyway. Something like THIS (just an example; other scenes are possibly more fitting, from creative meta-shapeshifting to walking Iron Demon). Note the ending credits: same font everywhere (your alternative use of tall and wide fonts is, well, strange, even without the serifs at the end). "ONi" is admittedly awkward, but I wanted it that way in this version. Eventually we can go for small caps (sans serif please) or for something special like "Bungie's ONi", or we can keep the lowercase "n" (after all, that's the way the logo looked in 1998). The effects and timing of the ending titles are of course primitive. --geyser 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)
  • The above problem (poor directing) comes up in a few other places. Muro's shotgun, for example, will be perfectly unintelligible even in lossess 640x480, at that distance. An example of a situation where the appearance of new weapons will be unignorable is the sniper scope (imagine that Striker swinging a shotgun as he runs towards you, or trying to nail you with Muro's Tractor). Oh, and if you're serious about being happy with that "accidentally cinematic" scene (SBG chick with a messed-up TRMA, who spends ages reloading), or with the DeLorean footage (jerky manual camera and ghost midget in the foreground), then for the sake of all of us, set your sights a little higher. --geyser 18:15, 23 September 2008 (CEST)
  • Last but not least, for a file that's freaking over 80 megs, why the frack is the quality so rock-bottom crappy? Frankly, the compression is killing me, and you know I'm not the picky one... posterized shadows, bleeding colors, omnipresent interlacing... the works! --geyser 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST)

Your apology in the last edit summary counts for something, but I still need to say this, geyser. This isn't about who's right or wrong or whether I can take criticism. When you say "This isn't a discussion" in your previous edit summary, what you are saying is, "It's my way or the highway." That's not how collaboration works. I don't work for you; this isn't an employer/employee relationship. This is me, trying to be helpful because you said you don't have time for editing the final product even though you are apparently trying to do just that, one piece at a time. So, by all means, criticize if you must, but do not try to prevent discussion. It could be that you are afraid of this turning into another "s$^&storm", but if that's the case, then you could simply say, "Let's try to avoid a drawn-out argument". I'm actually pretty damn hard to offend in cases where I think someone meant no harm (and I always give people the benefit of the doubt when it's uncertain whether they meant offense). But decrees about having "no discussion" offend me, geyser. It may well be that you don't have time for discussing all the points you brought up (and my time is precious, too, I am swamped with RL responsibilities right now). But that's not my problem; I can't be expected to care if you have time to follow through on comments that you make when I respond to them. I don't mean that in a confrontational way... it's just how things work. I'm sure that no matter how little time you have, you can respond in dribs and drabs, and if that's all you have time for, well, we're not being held to a deadline like a publisher who announced a release date for a commercial game (and those get pushed back, too); I'm not advocating more delays, I'm just saying, don't take out your frustrations about a lack of time for Oni on me. Now, back on the subject at hand:

  • "synchronization"; sigh. This is a two-prong issue I hoped to avoid talking about, but here goes:
Issue #1: The audio; this is a chaotic song, with a fast tempo and little beat-differentiation, by which I mean, compare NOLTT to a track from my first trailer draft, "The Hunt"; hear how clear and measured the primary beats are? I find it difficult to hook my editing into the "rhythm" of NOLLT because I can hardly hear which way is up -- so cutting anything on a certain beat feels pointless. That being said, there is some intended and unintended synchro in the video: around 0'30", 0'32", 0'35", 0'38", 0'55.5", 1'03", 1'35", and 1'58". You're right that there is no consistency in the use of synch, though, which leads to...
Issue #2: Style; there's more than one philosophy to this kind of thing; while the mainstream trend in stuff like music videos is to religiously tie every cut and cool moment to a beat, some professionals prefer to let the music run its course and not perform such obvious edits; that kind of strict synchro approach can feel amateur ("Hey, look how nifty my editing is!"); that being said, some trailer music works great with synched video (Cf. this Neo Ranga trailer).
When I started editing to this hard, grinding music, it felt like I should let the music dictate mood, but not pacing -- in other words, let it drive the overall speed of the cuts and the content of the cuts, but not try to actually make those cuts in time with the music; with a more syncopated piece of audio, I would have gone the other way entirely (and I planned to do so in my original approach to the trailer with my personal picks for music).
  • "dead comrade" scene... what, you want an animated arrow pointing from the girl to the body she's looking at, and then an exclamation point popping up above her, and then little radio waves coming from her wrist when she calls for help? I don't know how to make that scene more explanatory, but i you have any ideas, not empty criticism, I'm all ears.
  • Re opening the AE footage section with the mixed-bag; you are totally right, I dropped the ball on this one, but will fix that in the next draft.
  • Re text that blocks your view when it goes "In your face!" -- yes, this is bad, it wasn't a problem in the '99 trailer because it was on its own screen, going whoosh, then cutting to footage; my text is overlaid on footage to maximize the use of time so it gets in the way and is generally distracting; I guess I will have to find a less obtrusive effect.
  • Motoko is still rough in terms of hair, but hopefully that will be fixed before the final trailer comes out and I will pop new footage in there; her face isn't rough at all, you just can't read its contours when it's rendered that way; at least wait until you see it with smoothed normals and textures before having an opinion. Judging her from that style of render is like deciding that a supermodel is unattractive because you only saw her up-close once, with no make-up, having just woken up, under fluorescent light. Yes, it is like that. That's a very good analogy and I'm proud of it.
  • The Iron Demon movie is great, that is a good replacement for what's in the trailer now (that is what you intended, right?).
  • Showing an original level in an editor would certainly be better just from a creative standpoint, even if the legal side is not an issue imho
  • I didn't cut the "Blam" out because of the picture not being the best choice. The initial "Blam" is some of the most criminally-bad audio I've ever heard in my life. It annoys the crap out of me. There's no way anyone wants to watch a trailer that opens with that sound. I hoped you wouldn't bring that up because I didn't want to tell you how much I hate that sound, but I simply cannot produce a video with that sound in it. The only solution I can imagine (aside from cutting it out like I did) is finding a new "Blam" that doesn't sound like it's coming from the cheap speaker in a child's toy.
  • Your Oni effect at the end of the intro shot looks very nice... but keep in mind that it pushes the "reveal" of the name forward in time, which leaves an awkwardly long(er) gap before the footage can start, unless you just want the classic Oni footage to start earlier, which in turn... makes a longer gap to fill with old game footage before the "seven years" transition. Perhaps it won't be too bad, but I did want to avoid boring people by showing them what they might already be familiar with for too long.
  • Muro's shotgun may be kind of far away, but he's shooting at Konoko in the foreground, so the buckshot or whatever you call it is quite evident IMO, so it's clear that there's a new weapon in play; I do see your point about using the sniper scope shot to show off a new weapon; I just don't think it will be very evident. That shot, which I'm quite fond of, is unavoidably shaky, and so would any other scope recording be, so I don't think anyone will notice what he's holding; plus, either it will be swinging up and down as he runs with it, or he'll be pointing it at the camera and you won't see anything because it will be end-on. Plus, I just refuse to replace that sniper shot, it's nearly perfect; or did you think I used the clip with the single falling snowflake by accident?
  • "SBG chick with a messed-up TRMA, who spends ages reloading" How is her TRMA messed up? And she spends about two seconds on stopping and reloading. I happen to think that the motion there is interesting and draws attention to the details of Steve A's great animation; admittedly, not relevant to the AE... and I think this point is moot because I will have to drop the clip before final cut if I can't get a better-quality version (sorry EdT).
  • The DeLorean shot is admittedly shaky (sorry again, EdT!), but it was the best drive-by clip I had in acceptable quality because someone wouldn't give me a decent version of the footage they took of the car turning onto a street as the camera ran alongside... I wonder who that was....
  • ""ONi" is admittedly awkward" It beings tears of joy to my eyes to hear you admit that. Re the text I used, I actually thought I was neatly compromising with you by making all three letters capital while preserving the overall heights of the letters in the official Bungie image of the word (and the "i" really looks about the same upper-case as it does lower-case, it's not a letter that changes much between cases, so I don't know why you care about it). I have to say, too, that I understood not a word of what you said in the rest of that paragraph; you asked for a sans serif font... that's what I used! You say "in this version"... you mean, in this trailer? Also, I used four different fonts, yes, but only because I was trying to makes things slightly less boring, and also to present each piece of text in a font that suited it. But if you want, I will use only one typeface for all of it.
  • My ending is inferior to your example ending in one respect, which is that in mine, the first words are way too late in appearing onscreen; that was more an accident than intentional, because I threw that new text in right before I saved the cut. I can fix that. Otherwise, I don't see any differences in timing, so if there's something else there you want me to see, you have to point it out.
  • "rock-bottom crappy", "the compression is killing me", "posterized shadows", "bleeding colors", "omnipresent interlacing". Wow. What can I say, except that I really have no idea what you're talking about? Seriously, this scares me a bit. A couple clips are low-quality, yes... but the compression is excellent (for MPEG-4). If you don't like the darks (not sure I understand your usage of "posterized"), I will save the next one in "OG" Sorenson, it preserves darks much better than MPEG. "Bleeding colors"... you're freakin' colorblind (and so am I)! How could you know if colors are bleeding?! And finally, as to claims of "omnipresent" interlacing, damn you, I had to disprove this thoroughly, so I actually went and counted, and there are 6 clips with interlacing:
  1. Disarming of green Striker in classic Oni
  2. Spinning punch to TCTF guy in classic Oni
  3. Ninja taking out guards in classic Oni (I can fix this one, I chose to blend frames when slowing the speed down, but I can turn that off)
  4. Parkouring Mukade
  5. Shapeshifting in glass hall
  6. Sniper shot to Striker (I think it works favorably here)
These clips were all recorded by PC users, and it's not my fault your computers have crappy video capture/encoding abilities. Do you honestly think the handful of clips here are detracting from the trailer? Now, if you're being confused by the text that's interlaced, thinking that means the whole video is interlaced, well it's not; it's only the text rendering. I can't explain it, but I will look into it; it's a strange symptom but hopefully fixable. --Iritscen 21:50, 23 September 2008 (CEST)
Nothing personal, but I really have to go now. Given enough time I still intend to provide mini-drafts covering the full length of the trailer, complete with raw footage. You can interpret that as patronizing if you like, be my guest. Please don't resent the lack of constructive criticism about the "dead comrade" scene or the missing footage for the DeLorean: I already said and released All I Could in that respect, and I will say and release more, eventually. As for all the rest, from posterization to soundtrack to (dead link), I really can't afford to chat, and I'm really sorry about this. I knew it was a bad idea for me to speak up in the first place, but at least now you can be sure you'll get nothing out of me but constructive silence; communicating/arguing in "dribs and drabs" is not an option for me, and it will actually take me less time to deliver near-final trailer sections. --geyser 00:59, 24 September 2008 (CEST)
To geyser primarily, and to anyone else following this discussion secondarily: Please read the following meditatively. Yes, this is a long rant, but it's everything I need to say. And it's the last time I'll rant on anything within this community. I promise that solemnly. After this, there's no need to rant because if this doesn't hit home or have any effect, there's no point in repeating it, and I just have to move on emotionally from this whole thing.
I certainly won't take offense at your not being able to reply to all the above points, because I understand the demands of RL; but I think we need to step back and think about this "creative" "process". "it was a bad idea for me to speak up in the first place". No, I don't think so, because I was refraining from doing more trailer work since I hadn't heard anything from you in so long and I figured you were going to drop The Hammer of Nitpicking™ on me sooner or later (I was right) and there was no point in doing more work that you might end up un-doing.
But what are we doing here, geyser? Does this make sense? Is it really an efficient use of our time to construct the trailer this way? I'm not trying to back out of helping; rather, I am trying to find a good way to help, and this doesn't seem to be helping; I don't feel like I'm helping you. Nothing I do seems able to satisfy you, so you end up having to say, "Not like that, like this," and post another partial video. It's like, instead of my designing a home and building it, I'm building a modular home where someone else has made the pieces, shipped them in, and I just slap them together. This doesn't make sense because if you can assemble the parts yourself using your available tools, what is the point of having me here??? Seriously, I don't know the answer to that question. What am I here for?
Looking at the situation realistically as an adult, don't you see, geyser, that when you can't do something yourself, but have to rely on others for help, you automatically cede some control over that project? That's how everything in this world works. When you give others tasks to do, even as their employer, there comes a time when you have to say, "You know what? We need to keep moving forward, so even if that employee's work is not up to my specs, I'm not them and I can't do their job because I have my own job. Their work is not going to wreck the company, and maybe others will think it's fine that way, so I have to let go of my personal investment in this and just approve it." I know I shouldn't have to tell you that, geyser, but I find myself wondering if you haven't learned that Fact Of Life yet; surely you must have, right? So, if you have... at what point are you going to shrug to yourself and say, "That's not perfect, and it's not how I would do it, but it's good enough"? There has to be a point where that happens or you will never be successful at managing people, either professionally or in the community. They will become fed up and quit. And I'm not suggesting here that you say the trailer draft is fine as-is, that's a wrap, we're done here. I'm referring to the individual parts of the whole; when will any of them be good enough for you?
I sometimes wonder why I have to be the one always saying this stuff; it reminds me of school, in every single grade, where we'd be in a group, and no one wanted to present our work, or be group leader. I didn't want to, either, but I felt obligated by a sense of duty to do so, and so, after an awkward silence, I would always mumble, "I guess I'll do it." And I never wanted to. And I still don't. But here I am again. The group was given an assignment: record footage for the trailer. Then, they were given unreasonably specific instructions as to how to do over what they did, but better this time. Eventually, what happened? They stopped helping. Sure, maybe they got busy IRL or with other Oni projects, but maybe they were demoralized by your endless direction. We won't know unless some of them speak up. I have absolutely zero desire to put anyone on the spot or to make them feel embarrassed or pulled into some kind of argument, but, seriously, I can't speak for them, I can only guess at what they were thinking when the awkward silence descended on the AE:Trailer page after a while. The silence said to me, "This is too demanding, I'm just gonna sit this one out now." Maybe I'm wrong, but as is the story of my life, here I am, putting myself out there with the biggest risk because no one else spoke their mind back when you asked (what I thought was) too much of them. Is that unfair of me to say, maybe a little angry? Perhaps. I guess that, as an adult, I thought things would change for me. But they never do.
I will force myself to close up here for now, but I want to answer a question that you may have on your mind, that goes something like, "Then why the crap did you volunteer to help me if you were going to make such an issue out of this?" The answer is, I volunteered to help you because I was already making my own trailer after reading Gumby's message on the forum conveying your desire for said trailer; I saw no specific direction so I followed my own. I had a format picked out, and music, and I had a short, succinct list of footage I wanted help recording, and I was ready to go to town and have fun. Then I found out you had laid out plans on the wiki already, and in the interests of cooperation I decided to scrap my personal vision for the trailer that excited me and go with yours instead. And I've really tried, geyser, really I have. I have tried to produce a trailer that you could approve of. In some ways, I can still make what I have work better for you, but in most ways I think we are looking at a chasm between us called "a difference in aesthetics", and we will never have a meeting of minds unless you acknowledge reality and say that something is "not perfect, but good enough". Until you can bring yourself to essentially "say uncle" to the facts of the universe, I can't keep working for you. It's just not going to be good for either one of us because we keep going around and around in circles, like Ouroboros consuming itself endlessly. I would have finished this trailer and gotten back to my other projects by now if we worked better together or if I did my own thing. As it is, I don't see any end to this project, and I *need* to see an end. Everyone needs to see an end to something when they have other things they need and want to do.
So, that's it, it's off my chest and in your court. I'm not quitting the project, and I'm not quitting the community. You can fire me from the project, you can act on that Fact Of Life and learn the words "good enough", or we can make our own separate trailers. That's not an ultimatum from me to you, it's a list of the only possible outcomes at this point. I apologize if this rant sounded breathlessly emotional, or if it sounded self-righteous, but there are key issues here that involve much more than just this little trailer and I always believe in clearing the air and addressing issues when it needs to be done. As I said, no more rants after this, ever. --Iritscen 04:31, 24 September 2008 (CEST)
I like your solemn promise. I don't like your analogy with real-life management. You're probably right when you say I suck as a manager and as an adult, even if we take into account conflicting RL priorities and community specifics; but that "sense of duty" you admitted to is not really the kind of creative motivation I can approve of in the case of this project: it leaves little room for actual "tender loving care". So. Obviously, there are no jobs and bosses involved here, but consider yourself fired if it makes you feel better: my apologies about the aesthetical chasm and about your wasted time. Now, two separate trailers are an option, but keep in mind that an official trailer can bury Oni just as it can bring it back to life; a half-baked trailer will decredibilize AE as a project, which is bad for the community. That's the main reason why I've been doing my very best and telling others to do so: because our self-esteem at this point in time, and the elaborately self-aware statement that is the trailer, will define whether there's anywhere for us to go from here at all. Advice. --geyser 06:30, 24 September 2008 (CEST)
I'll add my thoughts, the reason I stopped providing content for the trailer was that it seemed nothing I did was "good enough". I realize that geyser wants the best for the trailer in terms of content and quality and I felt that my skills was not up to the level that geyser wanted. I really appreciate the efforts that Iritscen put into making the trailer and I'm sorry that I couldn't have been of more help.
I'm not one to complain, but one statement bugs me. geyser said "For example, I'd avoid showing editor views of ripped levels: my current impression is that they scream "big-time EULA violation!" But under Modding Tools the request was "View of levels, characters and weapons in XSI/Cheetah/Blender (for characters and weapons, show a texture editor panel)" Now for that shot of the Lab in Cheetah, I had to manually link over 170 TXMPs to the materials, that took considerable time and now we can't use it.
Anyways, that's my mini-rant :-)
To geyser, I want to thank you for skills and knowledge in improving Oni for everyone to enjoy. Especially, you don't forget about the few Mac fans, and for that I'm grateful.
EdT 06:43, 24 September 2008 (CEST)
I want to second Ed in thanking you for the work you do in the community, geyser, and for not overlooking Mac users, and I hope you are not dis-spirited by my rebellion up there ^ but at least we have come to terms. Touching on what Ed said, it could well be that I lack the skills you need; it was somewhat egotistical of me to suggest that our only difference could be aesthetics and not skill level. One small clarification: when I used the word "duty", I meant that I felt a sense of duty to speak up, even to dare to speak for others when I might be wrong about their feelings, because I felt it had fallen on my shoulders to do so (even if it hadn't and I'm just a pompous ass for thinking so). The original motivation for starting work on a trailer was less duty-related and more enthusiasm-related, but there was duty there too -- I won't expand on that, to avoid rant territory.
But I see that you feel a strong sense of duty when it comes to representing Oni too, and I certainly respect that, of course. It may well be that, regardless of whether or not I could produce a decent trailer, my time would be better spent making (or finishing) things that maybe one day will be worthy of being put in a trailer, if that trailer-making person likes them, by some small chance :-) --Iritscen 07:30, 24 September 2008 (CEST)
lol guys, I am too lazy to thank you all every single day I happen to enter this wiki! From my personal point of view you three have a unique quality in common: you are unable to put aside your conscience, in everything you do, with the all people you happen to interact with. Now you are facing two kind of problems: first, your penchant for intelligent talk is slowly eating all your spare time. Second, creative partnerships usually turn into real friendships, and you (especially Geyser) are just afraid of trespassing that line - as well as of its consequences. Guido 21:35, 25 September 2008 (CET)
ahem... Guido, I only made 3 short posts on this page, so don't include me in the expression "your penchant for intelligent talk is slowly eating all your spare time" lol EdT 01:19, 26 September 2008 (CEST)
haha, I can give you that, EdT. [[User:Guido|Guido]
At least both of them (Irtiscen and geyser) want the best for Oni modding....even if they express it in different ways/priorities. :) Gumby 01:39, 26 September 2008 (CEST)