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Geyser

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 :::::::::I am not a specialist, but I'd say there are no causality paradoxes for one-way (forward) time travel ''as long as the initiative remains in the past'' (i.e., you can't "peek" into the future destination and then change your mind and go back). Under those conditions, you can choose to launch things ''into'' the future without any contradictions. Sending things to the past or pulling things from there is a no-no (because of how it would affect your present). Pulling things ''from'' the future is not as clear-cut, because such a pull is affecting the future's past, making the result of the pull indeterminate (and could lead to some paradoxes in combination with "forward launches"). In the situation that you describe as a problem, i.e., a single "forward launch", things are removed from the past not as a "retroactive consequence" of how they're popping from the phase in the future, but as a ''direct'' consequence of them being pushed in (on the side where the initiative is). Causality-wise, the "past push" and the "future pop" are the same event (one doesn't happen without the other; it either succeeds or fails on both sides "simultaneously"), and the disappearance of the "past thing" does not introduce any ambiguity -- at any future date, up to the moment when it pops back into existence, the past thing is just registered as having disappeared at the moment of the "push" and that's it. For a series of "forward launches", as long as each launch is initiated on the past side and can't be canceled on the future side, the world that you "pop" in is fully determined by the series of past events, including all the "forward launches" (pushes) and "landings" (pops). So your distant-past "Diluvians" can send entities forward in time, or even follow-up with one-way commands to those entities. (Future civilizations, however, can't push things into our present (their past), and can't "pull" from our time either.) Finally, the Diluvians can attempt to "pull" stuff from our time into theirs (Wilderness samples, I dunno), but with every such pull they're messing up the whole meantime history, even if a little, so they're doing destructive measurement, not unlike in quantum physics. If they stick to forward launches only, then everything is stable and predictable and nice (except that they have no way of knowing that the launch worked, other than by living through to the "target" time). Which is precisely what happens in your case, so you're good. Hope this helped. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:32, 10 June 2020 (CEST)
 ::::::::::On the specifics of what time travel I was proposing, I'm guilty of some vagueness on who would be doing the pushing/pulling. Even if the extraction of objects from the "other side" is a time dislocation and not a spatial one, I haven't decided if the aliens are sending their world to us or if we simply opened a Pandora's Box, and then the aliens noticed and started capitalizing on it. It became a moot point for me once I decided that the aliens would be here all along. At that point I figured that our phase experiments either awakened them or that their deep-sea alarm clock woke them up based on some criteria being met, and then they began using phase tech to remake the Earth in their image so they could reoccupy it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
+:::::::::::As I explained above, pulling from the past can't work (pushing to the future is about the only "foolproof" flavor of time travel), but if your aliens are actually contemporaries in stasis, then as you say it may all be a swirl of "today's Phase", with entities teleporting back and forth between alien bases/arks (deep underwater) and emerged territories (be it labs or WPs). The alarm clock thing does a good job answering the "why now?" question, i.e., what's so special about 2000 AD that makes it optimal for the aliens to invade, and why didn't they start, say, in 2000 B.C.? The answer then is, there's nothing special about our day and age, and nothing "optimal" for an invasion at all (maybe the aliens will be disappointed when they poke their heads and see that the world is not at all as they expected?) -- we just started messing with the Phase and this was a (wrong?) signal to the aliens that the time was right. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
 :::::::::(My ramblings above might make it look like I'm a big fan of time travel. I already said that in general I'm against it in the usual sense of "same place, different time", because the "same place" is ''moving'', dammit. However, if the Phase is Earth-centered in a "Gaia" kind of way, then it can act like a "guide" for time travel, and that would make the idea more comfortable to me). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 00:09, 11 June 2020 (CEST)
 :::::::::Point of convergence here -- for me, too, the Phase is something like a "limbo" region of spacetime, and we may never get to see the world(s) that lie "beyond" it (if any). (I'm not keen on having it called "veil", though, except as part of in-universe characterization. It's personal preference of course, but using a recurrent word from actual canon feels tidier somehow.) --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 00:09, 11 June 2020 (CEST)
 ::::::::::Though to be clear, if you're trying to stick to canon, there is pretty clearly no place we could call "Phase". Rather there is a technology which shifts the "phase" of objects between this world and another. So there's no in-between place, though insofar as objects can be partly shifted (cf. phase cloak) they would exist in both places at once. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
+:::::::::::Saying "pretty clearly" is pushing it a bit. The existence of "another world" isn't directly stated in Oni, only in Hardy's description of a "Screamer World", but there's the WPge mention of how the Screamers "seem to exist out of Earth phase". Regardless, we seem to be agreeing on the "fact" that the Phase is like a "fringe" (or hub), rather than an alternative Earth. You call it a "veil", I call it the Phase, but we're still referring to this ever-changing "in-between-ness" that's immediately adjacent to our world, but which no one (at least in Oni canon) has been able to traverse. Whether there are 3D worlds beyond the "veil", and how many if any, we do not know. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
+:::::::::::Just so you know (or remember), projected weapons for "my" Oni2 included a "halver" (something that would decrease your presence in this world with every hit, and shifting presence to "another world" (or to immaterial "limbo presence"); while "halved" you would be less visible to others, and you would get visions of the Phase (and/or of the "other" world). Same for teleporting -- while "phased out" your vision of the "real world" is blurred and augmented with "phase visions", not unlike wearing the ring in Jackson's LOTR. I also wanted to have "screaming swords" and "screaming whips" -- life-draining, blood-less "cold weapons", which would operate and look similarly to Spirit claws/tentacles from Final Fantasy: The Spirit Within. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
 :::::::If it were up to me, I wouldn't keep much of those "[https://3dbrute.com/homunculus-loxodontus/ Waiters]" or their human/Daodan proxies, except for the notion that the Phase is tied to "Gaia", i.e., that you can't do phase tech in outer space. It would explain why Oni's sci-fi-powered civilization isn't actively colonizing Mars or the Moon, and it would keep the plot "Earth-centered" in a [[wp:Ring Around the Sun (novel)|Ring Around the Sun]] kind of way. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:06, 10 June 2020 (CEST)
 ::::::::To me, it would be much more surprising if the world of Oni ''was'' doing anything advanced in space. Where do you think ''we'll'' be in 12 years? Even colonizing the moon? Doubtful (sadly). Oni's world doesn't feel a lot more advanced than ours except for their phase tech, and there's nothing in the canonical depiction of that technology which would aid in settling another world. I would expect Oni's world to be ''less'' advanced in matters of space than ours, seeing as they have some very time-consuming and expensive issues to deal with here on Earth. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST)
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 :::::::::Sorry, I wasn't being clear. When I said the bush "looks" tame, I wasn't referring to the blurry dream-a-roid, but to my comparative perception of the two kinds of symbiosis: Konoko is as much of a "troublemaker unleashed", if not more, than the Jamie-killing bush, so I don't see one as a tamed version of the other, rather they look like two very different concepts. To be more precise, on one side we have a clear-cut and canon-ready concept -- the Daodan-powered Chrysalis -- and on the other we have a whole zoo of nondescript poisonous entities, widely varied but somehow all "Daodan-powered" as well. I haven't read the forum chat with Hardy yet, so I don't know what monsters he would have added to canon but didn't. All I know is, in the scope of Vanilla 2001 canon, we have no mention of Wilderness Preserves being roamed by [https://nausicaa.fandom.com/wiki/Ohmu ohmu], having crystal caves at the bottom and expanding through spores carried by insects -- and that's fine because we don't need another Nausicaä. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:25, 10 June 2020 (CEST)
 ::::::::::You're still making a baseless comparison between a bush (no agency, nor mobility) and a human being. What really makes Konoko a troublemaker? Her Chrysalis or her personality? We seem to have very different views of that subject. On a sidenote, I'm shocked that you haven't read Hardy's posts yet. Why the apathy? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
+:::::::::::I haven't found the time to re-read ASFO2, either, or SoW, or RS/CB. We all have our realities (children, working hours, RL projects, conflicting hobbies), so things happen when they happen, not sooner. I am not apathetic to Hardy's work (can't really say until I read it, though), but you of all people should understand how attention span works. Re:bush, it seems to me like you're reacting to the wrong thing. Oni's scientists see the Chrysalis as ominous ("what the presence of such a creature might portend for humanity we cannot know", etc), regardless of her impetuous personality (although it matters too, rash decisions and all). Your Wilderness is ominous too (per Oni canon, Hasegawa saw is as an "impending collapse of the Earth's biosphere"; you're giving it a different twist but it's still a doomsday scenario). But they're very different ominousnesses, and it's presenting them as two sides of the same medal that seems forced to me. The ''variety'' of Wilderness lifeforms, their poisonousness (as opposed to a Chrysalis's resilience), and how the Daodan scientists only talk about the Chrysalis -- that's what sets the two concepts apart (in my impression). The Daodans that were used to enhance Konoko and Muro, and the ones that are supposedly enhancing every living being in the Zones -- they look like very different Daodans to me, so much that I would just as soon label them differently: Daodan as the thing powering a Chrysalis as per Oni canon, and "Shmaodan" or whatever as the alien invasion proxy virus thing that supposedly killed Jamie. I'm only speaking my mind, of course -- this is just how I feel about your theory here and now. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
 ::::::::::On a sidenote, I don't see a strong correlation with Nausicaa's and my work, so perhaps this Miyazaki manga is just an obsession of yours. I could easily reduce your ideas to references to existing works as well, but haven't done so. "There is nothing new under the sun." All we can do is try to present old ideas in a new light. Presuming that you can create anything truly novel is vanity. And putting words in my mouth to make my ideas seem more Nausicaa-like is especially rude, so please stop. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
+:::::::::::The edit history of the Nausicaa page(s) seems to indicate that you've been fascinated with the Wilderness/Sea-Of-Corruption parallel as much as myself, if not more, and the insects splashing into airplanes and/or seeding new territories just rang ''so'' many bells for me (sorry). Anyway, you are bringing up an important point -- not only are we bound to "contaminate" the story with cultural influences or troops, but the very core of our work is referential/parasitic since we are "enhancing" an existing work by Hardy&Co, as if it was in need of an enhancement. I don't feel guilt over this, but I do feel a certain responsibility. If it was a new story we were telling, then we would be entitled to any kind of creative licence -- including, and not limited to, the "nothing new under the sun" attitude, i.e., more-or-less indiscriminate "melting-pot"-ness. For a derivative work, I feel like I need to be super-careful and super-discriminate about the alienation. Using Kerr's lexicon: whatever the final form or our work, it should be an expression of Oni's true nature. And, to take the analogy even further, I would hate it if, by the end of my work as a storyteller, Oni grew horns and became all livid and veiny-like. "Glorious, isn't it?" -- do not want. That's all. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
 :::::::Not sure what you mean with the role of "game design" (2D/3D themes/assets? or gameplay choices?), but I'm trying very hard to keep additions and "departures" to a minimum. Biopunk, as far as I can tell, is already in Oni (it doesn't matter that it started as a GITS clone -- by 2001 it already had an identity of its own, with the original SLD and Daodan/Chrysalis concepts at its core). And the balance with cyberpunk is achieved quite naturally, because you still have those huge machines for growing/monitoring all the biotech, the man-machine interface, sub-dermal chips and cables, cyborg parts, etc. As for the rest, I tend to list alternative takes intermixed with my preferences, so you may not always realize how little I'm actually adding. For one thing, I haven't had any need for Forerunners or Protheans so far. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:05, 10 June 2020 (CEST)
 ::::::::"Not sure what you mean with the role of "game design" (2D/3D themes/assets? or gameplay choices?)" — the former. The atmosphere of the game will be cyberpunk precisely to the degree that the levels are set in cyberpunk surroundings. If the focus, on the other hand, was on exploring the Wilderness, it would be a very different game indeed. I'm not suggesting we do that, if you look at my settings concepts on the SoW Settings page. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST)
 :::::::::Ah, so for you "bio-punk" would be a Nausicaä kind of adventure, where we'd wander deep into the Sea of Corruption (poisonous forest) and unravel its mysteries. For me bio-punk is just cyberpunk but with SLD brains instead of positronic ones (grown in a life-like fashion, instead of engineered), and the protagonist being eaten alive by her own hyperevolved cancer clone. Even if there are computers all around, and the setting is a jungle of chainlink and concrete, that's still bio-punk to me --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:31, 10 June 2020 (CEST)
 ::::::::::To me, a biopunk world that looks like a cyberpunk one but with organic cyborgs instead of mechanical cyborgs is not very interesting. What's the difference between a cyberpunk story where someone's nanites are restructuring their body and the premise of Oni's Daodan Chrysalis? It's just window dressing; swapping out one SF terminology for another. If there isn't lots of ''life'' in a biopunk story, rather than a lot of concrete and glass, I fail to see the point of invoking a new genre. But I do want to reiterate that I am not arguing for an all-Wilderness sequel, but rather one that still feels significantly cyberpunk. Some levels would be Wilderness-based, but more would be set in typical areas of human habitation. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
+:::::::::::Point taken. We are also on the same page about Oni2 being city-based with occasional excursions "into the green" (that's exactly what I had in mind with the "cave" setting during my "Serious" era). With the "bio-punk" label I wasn't really trying to pinpoint a genre, it just seemed to me that the hyperevolutionary alienation, coming from the Chrysalis but based on the "true nature" of the host itself, was somewhat more troubling than a bunch of nanites -- but I recognize that for a general audience it's a very subtle, barely noticeable difference from GITS, and probably works more on the philosophical/metaphysical level anyway. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
 ::::::::"For one thing, I haven't had any need for Forerunners or Protheans so far". No, just intelligent non-corporeal aliens that guide the development of the Daodan telepathically from across the phase veil ^_^ --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST)
 :::::::::Nice try. In my view, the Daodan (aura) ''is'' the immaterial sentient(?) entity that's leaking in from the Phase and coordinating the growth of the Chrysalis, one per symbiote -- i.e., just what we have in Vanilla Oni, no new names or entities needed. Calling them "phase gods", giving them other names, praying to them, or implying that they're proxies left by ancient civilizations -- that will be up to specific characters and their perverted interpretations, but fundamentally it's something that's already in Oni. I thought that was clear. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:25, 10 June 2020 (CEST)
 ::::::::::It sounds like we're saying the same thing except that you're being deliberately vague about motivations and characteristics of the aliens. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
+:::::::::::As long as I'm not calling them "aliens", there is absolutely no need to characterize them according to a human's expectations. "Motivations" are a human's thing. Like other phase entities, the Daodan just ''is'' (and its sentience remains a hypothesis!). On another note, Lem and the Strugatskys typically don't expose the motivations of their "aliens" at all, even when they're clearly depicting a different "race" -- because they see it as vain to rationalize/verbalize alien minds. So yes, I am deliberately "shying away" from detailing the Daodan's "point of view", but that's just where I'm coming from, sci-fi-wise. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
 :::::Mostly agree about the Wilderness Preserves being mostly overgrown -- not like a large dump can't be covered in greenery, mind you, or covered-up by limiting access to satellite imagery (Oni's space programs are not the same as NASA's and ESA's, so we don't know what satellites they had in orbit before the Uprising, and who was running them). At any rate, Hasegawa's tale is really telling us that "the world outside the ACCs is poisonous" so, at least in the one Zone that he and Jamie set foot into, the virus (or whatever) had apparently "gone to seed" in most of the Zone's lifeforms (that's if it wasn't in fact airborne, merely using Jamie's open wound as a way in). This is not telling us that the virus (or whatever) didn't spread from a man-made container discarded somewhere deep in the forest, or from a secret underground lab, or from an enigmatic phase portal (or xenoforming time capsule). Like I said earlier, Zones (Preserves) don't all have to look the same or kill their local Jamies in the same fashion. It's only your own Wilderness fixation that's giving you that idea. (For what it's worth, would Jamie's Zone cause "biological contamination" on a plane passing overhead, that would be immediately noticed and reported by pilots? I wouldn't be so sure.) --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 02:58, 9 June 2020 (CEST)
 ::::::"would Jamie's Zone cause 'biological contamination' on a plane passing overhead?" In my conception, the Wilderness is emitting all kinds of stuff all the time, and there's not just flora down there, but fauna too. So there's any number of things that could cause biological contamination, including bugs that attached themselves to the fuselage, or splattered on it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST)