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Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions

(→‎The Scratch: P.S. about tectonics (fairly crucial))
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::::::::::::::Okay, well I could agree with that concept, but I think it's pretty confusing to use the same word as Oni (except with a capital letter) with a different definition. And again, the "phase veil" is the ''wall'' between our world and another, not a space. Neither I nor Hardy have ever suggested a name for the other side(s). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::::Okay, well I could agree with that concept, but I think it's pretty confusing to use the same word as Oni (except with a capital letter) with a different definition. And again, the "phase veil" is the ''wall'' between our world and another, not a space. Neither I nor Hardy have ever suggested a name for the other side(s). --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::Slight déjà vu notwithstanding, let me stress again that we ''do'' agree about the "wall"/veil thing -- there is the frontier/boundary that is in our immediate reach, and the world(s) that may lie beyond it. Hardy makes a distinction between the "veil" and the Screamers' homeworld (unnamed), so perhaps that means that we should make that distinction, too (if we're keen on honoring Hardy's post-canon revelations, that is). My only amendment to this view -- already stated above -- is that the parallel worlds (if any) are not something that we can perceive or access directly, therefore ''from our point of view they effectively make one with the "veil"'' (unless/until we manage to probe the "other side" somehow). Hence our freedom to attribute a loose collective term (Phase) ''both'' to the frontier ''and'' to whatever may lie beyond (because Oni's scientists simply don't know better, and cannot distinguish the "veil" from the "worlds beyond" in the same way as us writers do). In that view, the capitalized Phase can be seen as designating the whole range of uncharted phase-space -- "veil" and "world(s) beyond" combined -- which to me seems like a valid metonymy. If it works for you, consider it a popular-mechanics kind of shorthand for the "real thing" (the technical term could be something like "Earth-phase-congruant spacetime manifold"). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:09, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::Slight déjà vu notwithstanding, let me stress again that we ''do'' agree about the "wall"/veil thing -- there is the frontier/boundary that is in our immediate reach, and the world(s) that may lie beyond it. Hardy makes a distinction between the "veil" and the Screamers' homeworld (unnamed), so perhaps that means that we should make that distinction, too (if we're keen on honoring Hardy's post-canon revelations, that is). My only amendment to this view -- already stated above -- is that the parallel worlds (if any) are not something that we can perceive or access directly, therefore ''from our point of view they effectively make one with the "veil"'' (unless/until we manage to probe the "other side" somehow). Hence our freedom to attribute a loose collective term (Phase) ''both'' to the frontier ''and'' to whatever may lie beyond (because Oni's scientists simply don't know better, and cannot distinguish the "veil" from the "worlds beyond" in the same way as us writers do). In that view, the capitalized Phase can be seen as designating the whole range of uncharted phase-space -- "veil" and "world(s) beyond" combined -- which to me seems like a valid metonymy. If it works for you, consider it a popular-mechanics kind of shorthand for the "real thing" (the technical term could be something like "Earth-phase-congruant spacetime manifold"). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:09, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::::::Okay, I get it now that you've explained that the Phase and the veil are the same in your mind, since the other side is not being explored or glimpsed clearly. I still think it's a mistake to lump them together in a single term, because from my standpoint I want to know exactly what is on the other side. If the only people using the term "Phase" (according to your definition) are some scientists within the story, that would make sense because it reflects their lack of knowledge, but if we also use the term, it discourages us from deciding what's really on the other side — an alternate-universe Earth? a past Earth? another type of universe altogether? But perhaps this is a case where you value ambiguity and I eschew it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::P.S. About the Phase/veil -- "you can warp/travel through it, but you can't live there permanently" -- except maybe if you're immaterial? In the case of Screaming Cells and Daodan entities, there are no clear rules that would prevent them from living "in" the veil, so to speak -- as temporary/timeless disturbances of this ever-changing "fringe/hub world". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:42, 20 June 2020 (CEST)  
:::::::::::::P.S. About the Phase/veil -- "you can warp/travel through it, but you can't live there permanently" -- except maybe if you're immaterial? In the case of Screaming Cells and Daodan entities, there are no clear rules that would prevent them from living "in" the veil, so to speak -- as temporary/timeless disturbances of this ever-changing "fringe/hub world". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:42, 20 June 2020 (CEST)  
:::::::::::Just so you know (or remember), projected weapons for "my" Oni2 included a "halver" (something that would decrease your presence in this world with every hit, and shifting presence to "another world" (or to immaterial "limbo presence"); while "halved" you would be less visible to others, and you would get visions of the Phase (and/or of the "other" world). Same for teleporting -- while "phased out" your vision of the "real world" is blurred and augmented with "phase visions", not unlike wearing the ring in Jackson's LOTR. I also wanted to have "screaming swords" and "screaming whips" -- life-draining, blood-less "cold weapons", which would operate and look similarly to Spirit claws/tentacles from Final Fantasy: The Spirit Within. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::Just so you know (or remember), projected weapons for "my" Oni2 included a "halver" (something that would decrease your presence in this world with every hit, and shifting presence to "another world" (or to immaterial "limbo presence"); while "halved" you would be less visible to others, and you would get visions of the Phase (and/or of the "other" world). Same for teleporting -- while "phased out" your vision of the "real world" is blurred and augmented with "phase visions", not unlike wearing the ring in Jackson's LOTR. I also wanted to have "screaming swords" and "screaming whips" -- life-draining, blood-less "cold weapons", which would operate and look similarly to Spirit claws/tentacles from Final Fantasy: The Spirit Within. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
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::::::::::::::I take the opposite view of Hasegawa: that he was a prophet ahead of his time. Like Jor-El, he foresaw the destruction of the world, but wasn't listened to. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::::I take the opposite view of Hasegawa: that he was a prophet ahead of his time. Like Jor-El, he foresaw the destruction of the world, but wasn't listened to. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::It would be rather anthropocentric to interpret a threat to humankind as "the destruction of the world". Hasegawa's comparatively humble endeavor was to let the world move on while allowing humans to survive the change. Whether he was a prophet, and what of, is debatable. Impending doom is not something I find very compelling (boring, rather), but that's just my opinion. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:09, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::::It would be rather anthropocentric to interpret a threat to humankind as "the destruction of the world". Hasegawa's comparatively humble endeavor was to let the world move on while allowing humans to survive the change. Whether he was a prophet, and what of, is debatable. Impending doom is not something I find very compelling (boring, rather), but that's just my opinion. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:09, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::::::There's nothing wrong with a little anthropocentrism from the characters in the story. We routinely use the expression "end of the world" in English to mean the end of human civilization, or even just the end of human life as we know it. And Hasegawa wasn't trying to let nature be nature, or anything so ecologically motivated. He was trying to save humans the only way he could think of, which was to change us, not the world. Finally, impending doom for mankind is indeed a bit clichéd, but I think the bigger problem with it as a source of drama is that the outcome is predictable. When one raises the stakes of one's story to "Will the main character live or die?" or "Will the world end?", anyone who takes themself out of the story for a moment will know how it's going to end. So it's worth considering alternate stakes, such as my suggestion that the symbiotes are linked in a life-or-death way to the Wilderness, so if the Wilderness is defeated, Konoko dies, but if it's allowed to remain, it will inevitably overtake the world. The matter of defeating the Diluvians (now you've got me saying it) may have a more predictable outcome, but it's not the only point on which the story turns, so there is more to keep the audience in suspense. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::I wouldn't advise trivializing Oni canon and implying that the "straight" reading is that a WP is "just" a toxic waste dump, or that the origin of the waste is 100% industrial. We Do Not Know. Some elements of canon hint at a military origin for the waste (ghastly bioweapons that were either developed, tested or dumped in "easy to ignore" areas), or at unethical "rogue science" during the years preceding the WCG's firm technology control. A "phase twist" is also possible, like teleportation/annihilation experiments gone wrong, or phase-induced mutation of Earth organisms (not as elegant as the Chrysalis, but enough to make an impression on Hasegawa). You said "good points" to all of this down below -- when I said that Contaminated Zones weren't reduced to industrial dumps in Oni canon, and that there were lots of ways to detail them without resorting to alien ingerence. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:34, 19 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::I wouldn't advise trivializing Oni canon and implying that the "straight" reading is that a WP is "just" a toxic waste dump, or that the origin of the waste is 100% industrial. We Do Not Know. Some elements of canon hint at a military origin for the waste (ghastly bioweapons that were either developed, tested or dumped in "easy to ignore" areas), or at unethical "rogue science" during the years preceding the WCG's firm technology control. A "phase twist" is also possible, like teleportation/annihilation experiments gone wrong, or phase-induced mutation of Earth organisms (not as elegant as the Chrysalis, but enough to make an impression on Hasegawa). You said "good points" to all of this down below -- when I said that Contaminated Zones weren't reduced to industrial dumps in Oni canon, and that there were lots of ways to detail them without resorting to alien ingerence. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:34, 19 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::On a sidenote, I don't see a strong correlation with Nausicaa's and my work, so perhaps this Miyazaki manga is just an obsession of yours. I could easily reduce your ideas to references to existing works as well, but haven't done so. "There is nothing new under the sun." All we can do is try to present old ideas in a new light. Presuming that you can create anything truly novel is vanity. And putting words in my mouth to make my ideas seem more Nausicaa-like is especially rude, so please stop. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::On a sidenote, I don't see a strong correlation with Nausicaa's and my work, so perhaps this Miyazaki manga is just an obsession of yours. I could easily reduce your ideas to references to existing works as well, but haven't done so. "There is nothing new under the sun." All we can do is try to present old ideas in a new light. Presuming that you can create anything truly novel is vanity. And putting words in my mouth to make my ideas seem more Nausicaa-like is especially rude, so please stop. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
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:::::::::Land-dwelling/amphibious Leviathans/Diluvians/Whoever can't be much larger than dinosaurs, unless they have adamantium grafts or are held up by blimps/antigravity/etc. Ocean-dwelling looks fine to me, and -- if I may -- you can actually make the ocean into the main tool of their strength. Each individual could be kaiju-sized -- large as f##k, but not so large as to dwarf a skyscraper --, but the aquasphere would connect all the individuals together and make them into a planet-sized hivemind, capable of mind control (like Lem's Solaris) or large-scale "waterbending" (tsunami and the like). So, something like whale-sized midichlorians. ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::Land-dwelling/amphibious Leviathans/Diluvians/Whoever can't be much larger than dinosaurs, unless they have adamantium grafts or are held up by blimps/antigravity/etc. Ocean-dwelling looks fine to me, and -- if I may -- you can actually make the ocean into the main tool of their strength. Each individual could be kaiju-sized -- large as f##k, but not so large as to dwarf a skyscraper --, but the aquasphere would connect all the individuals together and make them into a planet-sized hivemind, capable of mind control (like Lem's Solaris) or large-scale "waterbending" (tsunami and the like). So, something like whale-sized midichlorians. ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::I only wanted the aliens to be as large as organisms could get through evolution (though certainly Daodan-boosted evolution might have something to say in this). Although I did want them to be kaiju-sized, I only imagined that there were one or two left. I didn't mention that anywhere, I suppose, so that's my bad. The idea is to provide a concrete enemy in the story, but also one that can be vanquished. An army of these things, in full command of the Daodan, would be unstoppable. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::I only wanted the aliens to be as large as organisms could get through evolution (though certainly Daodan-boosted evolution might have something to say in this). Although I did want them to be kaiju-sized, I only imagined that there were one or two left. I didn't mention that anywhere, I suppose, so that's my bad. The idea is to provide a concrete enemy in the story, but also one that can be vanquished. An army of these things, in full command of the Daodan, would be unstoppable. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::Communication with an alien mind is hard to get right, but a kaiju fight sequence is also not something that I'd recommend planning for an Oni sequel. However, perhaps there is no need for such creatures to surface or come ashore? If they are pelagic or abyssal, but possess a hivemind that (when awake) turns the aquasphere into a "thinking ocean", then supposedly they can cause tsunamis and wipe out most of the large cities -- yet they won't be able to do to much about deserts or mountain areas (at least at first). So the direct threat from the Diluvians' awakening seems manageable to me -- you just move further inland, find ways to counter the xenoforming processes (or adapt to them), and ultimately abandon Earth as a last resort. Remote "xenoimpregnation" and "indoctrination" by the Diluvians may be a problem, but probably such interference can be "screened" or "jammed" somehow, too (once you know it exists). The way I see it, the largest threat in this story may be a mere side effect of the Diluvians awakening -- namely, as their collective Daodan aura comes back to full power, it increases the Earth's "exposure"/openness to the Phase. Portals now open not just in labs or WPs, but all over the world: ball lightnings, Screamers and Mukade-knows-what-else... It doesn't matter if the Diluvians themselves are relatively placid -- once they're awake, there will be more "phase hazards" on the surface than ever before, warlords will be empowered with new weapons and entities, and civilization as we know it will take quite a blow (even if not in a doomsday kind of way). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)  
:::::::::::Communication with an alien mind is hard to get right, but a kaiju fight sequence is also not something that I'd recommend planning for an Oni sequel. However, perhaps there is no need for such creatures to surface or come ashore? If they are pelagic or abyssal, but possess a hivemind that (when awake) turns the aquasphere into a "thinking ocean", then supposedly they can cause tsunamis and wipe out most of the large cities -- yet they won't be able to do to much about deserts or mountain areas (at least at first). So the direct threat from the Diluvians' awakening seems manageable to me -- you just move further inland, find ways to counter the xenoforming processes (or adapt to them), and ultimately abandon Earth as a last resort. Remote "xenoimpregnation" and "indoctrination" by the Diluvians may be a problem, but probably such interference can be "screened" or "jammed" somehow, too (once you know it exists). The way I see it, the largest threat in this story may be a mere side effect of the Diluvians awakening -- namely, as their collective Daodan aura comes back to full power, it increases the Earth's "exposure"/openness to the Phase. Portals now open not just in labs or WPs, but all over the world: ball lightnings, Screamers and Mukade-knows-what-else... It doesn't matter if the Diluvians themselves are relatively placid -- once they're awake, there will be more "phase hazards" on the surface than ever before, warlords will be empowered with new weapons and entities, and civilization as we know it will take quite a blow (even if not in a doomsday kind of way). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::To be clear, I never planned to have an actual battle against a kaiju in Oni 2. It is totally doable, as plenty of video games have tackled the idea of fighting massive-scale bosses, but I don't think it's in keeping with Oni's spirit. The idea was to have just the hand of the alien enemy reaching through a phase portal, with the understanding that if the portal isn't closed soon, he'll be all the way through. The final battle would be against human-scale foes who serve the Diluvians, and it would probably be a timed battle. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::I'm not in favor of the idea that the aliens control the ocean and can cause tsunamis. As you pointed out, a tsunami could be avoided by staying inland. So it's either world-ending (no way to fight back against a massive wave), or it's out of sight and of little importance to the characters you're controlling. It also changes the nature of the story's big threat from xenoforming to a more conventional end-of-world scenario. I like the rest of your suggestion, about the increase in phase activity or anomalies, though this could also be explained by the simple fact that humans invented phase tech and are finding an increasing number of ways to use it, perhaps unaware of the dangers that come with it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::Pushing that idea further, the "phase veil" can be seen as a side effect of the Diluvian hivemind, and the improbable emergence of Phase tech in human scope (around 2000 AD) may be directly linked to the Diluvians awaking from stasis. In that view, the "other worlds" (if any) and "transdimensional" phenomena are not created by the Diluvians, but their planet-sized hivemind is what makes it all apparent and "tangible" to us. Thus, if we were to kill all the Diluvians, phase phenomena all over the world would shut down and portals to other worlds (if any) would be closed permanently. In that case it wouldn't be as clear-cut as "destroy or be destroyed": the WCG placed its bets on Phase tech (and scrapped most of the old tech), so they wouldn't be too keen on going back to the Stone age. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::Pushing that idea further, the "phase veil" can be seen as a side effect of the Diluvian hivemind, and the improbable emergence of Phase tech in human scope (around 2000 AD) may be directly linked to the Diluvians awaking from stasis. In that view, the "other worlds" (if any) and "transdimensional" phenomena are not created by the Diluvians, but their planet-sized hivemind is what makes it all apparent and "tangible" to us. Thus, if we were to kill all the Diluvians, phase phenomena all over the world would shut down and portals to other worlds (if any) would be closed permanently. In that case it wouldn't be as clear-cut as "destroy or be destroyed": the WCG placed its bets on Phase tech (and scrapped most of the old tech), so they wouldn't be too keen on going back to the Stone age. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::The malevolence of the Diluvians (i.e., how and why they would pollute the above-the-surface world) isn't entirely clear to me, but here are a few thoughts. If you are linking the "invasion" to the P-Tr extinctions, then it would look like the Diluvians would just need a world with much less acidity in the oceans, and much less CO2 in the air, and that's about it -- i.e., essentially, they'd try to reverse the massive emergence of oxygen-breathing lifeforms. Supposedly they could achieve this by seeding the surface with a super ecosystem (super-plants that would eat up CO2 very quicky -- and thus leave regular photosynthetic plants to die --, while producing not plain O2 but various organic compounds, some of them hazardous). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::The malevolence of the Diluvians (i.e., how and why they would pollute the above-the-surface world) isn't entirely clear to me, but here are a few thoughts. If you are linking the "invasion" to the P-Tr extinctions, then it would look like the Diluvians would just need a world with much less acidity in the oceans, and much less CO2 in the air, and that's about it -- i.e., essentially, they'd try to reverse the massive emergence of oxygen-breathing lifeforms. Supposedly they could achieve this by seeding the surface with a super ecosystem (super-plants that would eat up CO2 very quicky -- and thus leave regular photosynthetic plants to die --, while producing not plain O2 but various organic compounds, some of them hazardous). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (CEST)
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:::::::::::I haven't really thought of the surviving alien(s) as malevolent, just more interested in its/their own survival than humans'. If we survive the transition to a new biosphere, they're probably fine with that, since they don't fear us — at least, at first. The Daodan Chrysalis is a wildcard that they weren't expecting. They see us a bit like a bad guy would see a [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebsvoRqPOMk crab with a knife]; not ''very'' concerned, but wary. To the degree that we might provide some resistance, they are increasingly inclined to squash us. They might also have something to do with the difficulty that humanity seems to be having in making Daodan symbiotes. Where did the knowledge go after Hasegawa and Kerr pulled it off? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::I haven't really thought of the surviving alien(s) as malevolent, just more interested in its/their own survival than humans'. If we survive the transition to a new biosphere, they're probably fine with that, since they don't fear us — at least, at first. The Daodan Chrysalis is a wildcard that they weren't expecting. They see us a bit like a bad guy would see a [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebsvoRqPOMk crab with a knife]; not ''very'' concerned, but wary. To the degree that we might provide some resistance, they are increasingly inclined to squash us. They might also have something to do with the difficulty that humanity seems to be having in making Daodan symbiotes. Where did the knowledge go after Hasegawa and Kerr pulled it off? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::Two things to reply to here. '''A)''' Regarding a direct confrontation with the alien(s), I still think that's about as good an idea as having said alien(s) communicate in English. If they really are territorial/protective about Daodan symbiosis (perceiving human symbiotes either as a direct threat to their existence or as an anomaly that needs correcting), then I'd expect them to keep operating on a "Gaia" level, squashing symbiotes with tsunamis, or phase-jamming them somehow (forcing their Daodans into latency -- another possible explanation for Mai's stasis/amnesia between Oni and "my" Oni2). '''B)''' As for the "difficulty that humanity seems to be having in making Daodan symbiotes" -- and how it may already be a Diluvian counter to Mai's and Muro's inception -- I don't think there is much to support this theory (other than the "it's up to us" argument). We see in Oni that human symbiosis is delicate to monitor and to stabilize -- especially, it would seem, on a grown adult (Mai and Muro, who were implanted at a young age, turn out OK; Barabas, not so much, and Mukade comes across as a bit of a freak too). Even if we can't exclude that Hasegawa is the only one who knew how to "pull it off" and took the secret to his grave (or wherever he is now), my personal impression is that the knowledge wasn't lost, it's just used very sparingly. For Griffin's Damocles, it's the ethical aspects that hold the scientists back (and the massive logistics of Mai's monitoring, too). For Muro, a symbiote's unconditional loyalty seems to be a key requirement, at least until the STURMANDERUNG initiative is complete, therefore the only symbiotes (or symbiote candidates) at the time of Oni's events are Muro's personal pets (or otherwise worthy people). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::Two things to reply to here. '''A)''' Regarding a direct confrontation with the alien(s), I still think that's about as good an idea as having said alien(s) communicate in English. If they really are territorial/protective about Daodan symbiosis (perceiving human symbiotes either as a direct threat to their existence or as an anomaly that needs correcting), then I'd expect them to keep operating on a "Gaia" level, squashing symbiotes with tsunamis, or phase-jamming them somehow (forcing their Daodans into latency -- another possible explanation for Mai's stasis/amnesia between Oni and "my" Oni2). '''B)''' As for the "difficulty that humanity seems to be having in making Daodan symbiotes" -- and how it may already be a Diluvian counter to Mai's and Muro's inception -- I don't think there is much to support this theory (other than the "it's up to us" argument). We see in Oni that human symbiosis is delicate to monitor and to stabilize -- especially, it would seem, on a grown adult (Mai and Muro, who were implanted at a young age, turn out OK; Barabas, not so much, and Mukade comes across as a bit of a freak too). Even if we can't exclude that Hasegawa is the only one who knew how to "pull it off" and took the secret to his grave (or wherever he is now), my personal impression is that the knowledge wasn't lost, it's just used very sparingly. For Griffin's Damocles, it's the ethical aspects that hold the scientists back (and the massive logistics of Mai's monitoring, too). For Muro, a symbiote's unconditional loyalty seems to be a key requirement, at least until the STURMANDERUNG initiative is complete, therefore the only symbiotes (or symbiote candidates) at the time of Oni's events are Muro's personal pets (or otherwise worthy people). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::To reiterate, I never said anything about the aliens speaking English or communicating directly with humans at all. But it's helpful for storytelling and game design purposes if there are human servants of the aliens who can explain what their mission is. Any concern you might have about explaining things too clearly is simply a matter of style — the choices that are made in how the dialogue is written and staged — and way premature at this point. I see no reason to explain everything 100%, but it's also unsatisfactory in the extreme to have aliens that are simply acting without any explanation or spokesman. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::::You bring up good points about why it might have been a choice not to pump out large numbers of symbiotes from either the Syndicate or the TCTF, but it doesn't feel like the reason that the story is implying. Why is Muro stealing experimental gene surgery equipment? Why are only "secondary" symbiotes being created, unlike Muro and Mai? The impression one gets is that knowledge has indeed been lost (taken) by the absent Hasegawa. Kerr, of course, only absconded with Mai and the Chrysalis based off her DNA, and it's possible that he too is unable to replicate Hasegawa's research. Still, isn't it rather odd that neither Kerr nor the Syndicate have enough data, years later, to replicate Hasegawa's work? You may say that Muro is capable of doing so, but simply sees the creation of full-fledged symbiotes as too dangerous… but that's not what his STURMANDERUNG plan suggested: "11) Symbiote candidate selection and implantation". Muro was working on a way to elevate others to his level, otherwise who would even be left to work under him? So whatever happened before Oni starts that caused the loss of knowledge and ability regarding the Daodan, there's a major lacuna in the story here that has to be filled in Oni 2. Outside interference makes as much sense as a theory as anything else does. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::Your overall conjecture about their purpose in shifting the climate makes sense to me. If ocean acidification was a big problem for them in the P-Tr days (which I imagined was accidentally caused by them at the time), they would definitely have something to say about it now. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::Your overall conjecture about their purpose in shifting the climate makes sense to me. If ocean acidification was a big problem for them in the P-Tr days (which I imagined was accidentally caused by them at the time), they would definitely have something to say about it now. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::Re: xenoforming, I definitely think that life (self-replicating machinery) is the best way to do this, rather than something as laborious as digging channels through the earth up into volcanoes, and pumping air produced by massive machinery. In real life, terraforming another planet via plant life would take many generations, but the Daodan's influence is my excuse for vastly speeding up the process. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::Re: xenoforming, I definitely think that life (self-replicating machinery) is the best way to do this, rather than something as laborious as digging channels through the earth up into volcanoes, and pumping air produced by massive machinery. In real life, terraforming another planet via plant life would take many generations, but the Daodan's influence is my excuse for vastly speeding up the process. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 19:50, 17 June 2020 (CEST)
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::::::::::Some interesting ideas here. I am also open to the aliens using something other than the Daodan as the basis for the "bio-invasion". I suggested at one point in my Oni 2 notes that the plants of the Wilderness might instead represent <u>competing</u> entities with the Daodan, ones which can also be implanted in human symbiotes. Mai will then have to fight them. This could include a symbiote human based off the plant that killed her mother… --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::Some interesting ideas here. I am also open to the aliens using something other than the Daodan as the basis for the "bio-invasion". I suggested at one point in my Oni 2 notes that the plants of the Wilderness might instead represent <u>competing</u> entities with the Daodan, ones which can also be implanted in human symbiotes. Mai will then have to fight them. This could include a symbiote human based off the plant that killed her mother… --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::Competing entities make sense to me, although perhaps not to the point of humans implanted with WP-Chrysalises. In my view, Chrysalis symbiosis already offers enough variety if you consider that each host is apparently paired with its own "aura" entity (as opposed to xeno-plants which may all be permeated by the same "Gaia" hivemind radiating from the Diluvians). Oni's core Chrysalis concept also allows for such uncanny experiments as implanting ''two'' Chrysalises ("exalted" tumors) to the ''same'' person, causing the two auras to compete for the host's body. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::Competing entities make sense to me, although perhaps not to the point of humans implanted with WP-Chrysalises. In my view, Chrysalis symbiosis already offers enough variety if you consider that each host is apparently paired with its own "aura" entity (as opposed to xeno-plants which may all be permeated by the same "Gaia" hivemind radiating from the Diluvians). Oni's core Chrysalis concept also allows for such uncanny experiments as implanting ''two'' Chrysalises ("exalted" tumors) to the ''same'' person, causing the two auras to compete for the host's body. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::To be clear, only you have suggested that the aura is anything other than cool glowy energy :-) That's all it is in my mind. More importantly, I can't imagine what sort of madman would implant two Chrysalises of any type in one person's body and expect anything useful to come out of it. What's wrong with simply having competing types of human symbiotes that are merged with different entities? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)
:::"As long as that plant contained the Daodan, it doesn't matter if anything else did." As I said above, the similarities between Jamie's cellular breakdown and Daodan symbiosis are actually minor, and even Hasegawa's notion of a "poisonous world" doesn't quite describe the Wilderness as you see it (in my opinion), as well as Muro's "dead air and foul water". But, even if the bush was Daodan-enhanced, Hasegawa would want to know if it was just that one bush that was "poisonous", or that particular bush species, or, as he actually puts it, the whole "world outside the Atmospheric Processors". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST)
:::"As long as that plant contained the Daodan, it doesn't matter if anything else did." As I said above, the similarities between Jamie's cellular breakdown and Daodan symbiosis are actually minor, and even Hasegawa's notion of a "poisonous world" doesn't quite describe the Wilderness as you see it (in my opinion), as well as Muro's "dead air and foul water". But, even if the bush was Daodan-enhanced, Hasegawa would want to know if it was just that one bush that was "poisonous", or that particular bush species, or, as he actually puts it, the whole "world outside the Atmospheric Processors". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST)
:::One thing that you're not making clear in your Wilderness theory is how it spread a lot at first, engulfing large areas, and then seemingly stopped. If Daodan symbiosis propagates upon contact, and each affected cell becomes a new source, then wouldn't the WCG need to build new rings of fences every week? Also, it it's so good at spreading-upon-contact, then wouldn't it have hit Hasegawa too? Airplanes flying over a Zone notice contamination in the air -- spores? pollen? -- and Hasegawa is down there breathing that stuff... And, for that matter, if it causes noticable contamination on aircraft then why hasn't airborne propagation caused generalized Daodanization yet? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST)
:::One thing that you're not making clear in your Wilderness theory is how it spread a lot at first, engulfing large areas, and then seemingly stopped. If Daodan symbiosis propagates upon contact, and each affected cell becomes a new source, then wouldn't the WCG need to build new rings of fences every week? Also, it it's so good at spreading-upon-contact, then wouldn't it have hit Hasegawa too? Airplanes flying over a Zone notice contamination in the air -- spores? pollen? -- and Hasegawa is down there breathing that stuff... And, for that matter, if it causes noticable contamination on aircraft then why hasn't airborne propagation caused generalized Daodanization yet? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST)
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::::::::::The idea was that the invasion has to happen in stages, and alien plants and fungi are the first trophic level to invade Earth. The WCG doesn't see any animals in those zones (that starts to happen in Oni 2), and is only a little aware of bugs. The bugs aren't spreading on their own; only where the alien flora goes in front of them. As far as how easily the plants can spread, that's up to us. Even being Daodan-powered doesn't mean they can do anything, at any speed. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::The idea was that the invasion has to happen in stages, and alien plants and fungi are the first trophic level to invade Earth. The WCG doesn't see any animals in those zones (that starts to happen in Oni 2), and is only a little aware of bugs. The bugs aren't spreading on their own; only where the alien flora goes in front of them. As far as how easily the plants can spread, that's up to us. Even being Daodan-powered doesn't mean they can do anything, at any speed. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::To me it looks like plant seeds/spores (with or without bugs) would have virtually unlimited volatility, and definitely more than you can shake an electric fence at. Unless Daodan-enhanced life is somehow ''worse'' at spreading around than ordinary Earth life, that is. It is "up to us" of course, but I rather wouldn't have such loopholes lying around. For what it's worth, I'd be comfortable if one of the "alien" properties of this xeno-flora is that it only reproduces [[wp:Vegetative_reproduction|vegetatively]] (at least up to and at the time of Oni's events), and is busy gaining in volume and density while staying relatively close to the "source" that spawned them (whatever it is). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::To me it looks like plant seeds/spores (with or without bugs) would have virtually unlimited volatility, and definitely more than you can shake an electric fence at. Unless Daodan-enhanced life is somehow ''worse'' at spreading around than ordinary Earth life, that is. It is "up to us" of course, but I rather wouldn't have such loopholes lying around. For what it's worth, I'd be comfortable if one of the "alien" properties of this xeno-flora is that it only reproduces [[wp:Vegetative_reproduction|vegetatively]] (at least up to and at the time of Oni's events), and is busy gaining in volume and density while staying relatively close to the "source" that spawned them (whatever it is). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::I think you're either overestimating how fast plants can spread, or underestimating the scale of the planet. If a few seeds can disperse like dandelion seeds and float over the fence from time to time, there's no reason why this immediately results in any sort of a crisis. Over the long term, sure, and that's what my Oni 2 is about. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::It may seem naive of the WCG to think they can contain the Wilderness, but they might know full well that it's a losing battle. They also are taking steps to contain the growing Wilderness, but clearly they're losing since the toxins in the air are increasing, according to Oni. Also, to whatever degree they're wrong about how well they have it contained, that's our way of adding some drama to the story. Finding out that the trophic level of the Wilderness is advancing to herbivores, insectivores, and then carnivores will be an alarming development. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::It may seem naive of the WCG to think they can contain the Wilderness, but they might know full well that it's a losing battle. They also are taking steps to contain the growing Wilderness, but clearly they're losing since the toxins in the air are increasing, according to Oni. Also, to whatever degree they're wrong about how well they have it contained, that's our way of adding some drama to the story. Finding out that the trophic level of the Wilderness is advancing to herbivores, insectivores, and then carnivores will be an alarming development. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::The [[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Secondary_Stage|increasing air toxicity]] is one of the most ambiguous parts of Oni canon. Not only does it involve the infamous "36.18% increase" of Dioxin levels, but it seemingly presents the toxin rise as a consequence of Muro's retrofitting of the ACCs. At no point are the WPs stated as a prominent source of airborne toxins in Oni's world: all we have is "biological contamination" encountered during flyovers, and the uncanny "virus" from Jamie's bush. Of course it doesn't mean that toxins don't emanate from the Contaminated Zones at all, but it doesn't establish the WPs as the planet's "toxic lungs", either. If anything, I'd blame a WCG-era toxin rise (pre-Muro) on imperfect waste processing procedures at the ACCs. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::The [[Quotes/Consoles#STURMANDERUNG_:_Secondary_Stage|increasing air toxicity]] is one of the most ambiguous parts of Oni canon. Not only does it involve the infamous "36.18% increase" of Dioxin levels, but it seemingly presents the toxin rise as a consequence of Muro's retrofitting of the ACCs. At no point are the WPs stated as a prominent source of airborne toxins in Oni's world: all we have is "biological contamination" encountered during flyovers, and the uncanny "virus" from Jamie's bush. Of course it doesn't mean that toxins don't emanate from the Contaminated Zones at all, but it doesn't establish the WPs as the planet's "toxic lungs", either. If anything, I'd blame a WCG-era toxin rise (pre-Muro) on imperfect waste processing procedures at the ACCs. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::I always thought the increasing toxicity was the result of the BioCrisis, whatever that may be. It's an ongoing problem, building over time. [[Quotes/Consoles#BioCrisis|THIS]] console makes it clear that the toxins have been building for a while, and the BioCrisis Subcommittee is refitting their ACCs to try to keep up. They don't seem puzzled by this, nor have they noticed that the toxins are coming from their own tampered-with ACCs, which would be a rather large thing to overlook. The increase in toxins (though poorly calculated in that console) is thus of "natural" origin. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::I still find it hard to reconcile the WCG's awareness of the Wilderness threat ("losing battle" and all) with the seeming unawareness of Griffin's Daodan team. It's OK to have a surge in xeno-life post-Oni (triggered by Konoko's Cataclysm, perhaps?), but at the time of Oni's events I'd expect the xeno-flora to be mostly dormant, complementary to the other sources of pollution that may exist in the Zones (man-made, phase-enhanced, etc) and to the toxin rise, but not readily identifiable either as an invasive threat or as a form of Daodan symbiosis. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::I still find it hard to reconcile the WCG's awareness of the Wilderness threat ("losing battle" and all) with the seeming unawareness of Griffin's Daodan team. It's OK to have a surge in xeno-life post-Oni (triggered by Konoko's Cataclysm, perhaps?), but at the time of Oni's events I'd expect the xeno-flora to be mostly dormant, complementary to the other sources of pollution that may exist in the Zones (man-made, phase-enhanced, etc) and to the toxin rise, but not readily identifiable either as an invasive threat or as a form of Daodan symbiosis. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::To be clear, Griffin's team is interested in Konoko, how she functions, and how to contain her. They're a police force, basically. You'd have to talk to someone much higher up to see what they know about the Wilderness. Your suggestion is certainly a decent one, that the true nature of the wildlife in the Preserves is not known. After all, if people commonly knew where the Daodan came from, Hasegawa's work would be more easily replicable. But perhaps he never shared that with anyone, or perhaps just his brother-in-law, who kept the secret. There's honestly little reason for the alien nature of the Wilderness to come up in Oni, as big of a deal as it may be. Yes, you'd think BWest would have made sure to mention it in a console somewhere as a natural part of their world-building, but no matter what we can't deny that there's some kind of big gap in Oni's story. This is just my proposal for filling it. It's entirely possible that hardly anyone in Oni's world realized that the alien life was alien until after the game ended. After all, if it's really life from Earth's past, then it's not *that* alien to begin with. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)
::::::I'd actually like to back up to a higher level and address what I think is your largest single question, which is, "Why complicate things when it's clear that Hardy just intended the Preserves to be waste dumps?" I felt it was necessary to diverge from this approach precisely because of the derivative feeling of the "social commentary". Industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada. Been there, done that dystopia. Likewise, if Oni's world was said to be warming dangerously, I would find some way to subvert that narrative into a more interesting, less "concern of the moment" type of problem. Star Trek IV was entertaining but nowadays nobody has any idea what it's going on about with all that whale stuff. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::I'd actually like to back up to a higher level and address what I think is your largest single question, which is, "Why complicate things when it's clear that Hardy just intended the Preserves to be waste dumps?" I felt it was necessary to diverge from this approach precisely because of the derivative feeling of the "social commentary". Industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada. Been there, done that dystopia. Likewise, if Oni's world was said to be warming dangerously, I would find some way to subvert that narrative into a more interesting, less "concern of the moment" type of problem. Star Trek IV was entertaining but nowadays nobody has any idea what it's going on about with all that whale stuff. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::Well, alien-engineered global warming sure would come in handy if it made Earth more "waterworldy". I may be getting it wrong, but your Daomen/Diluvians would actually be at home in a world with no icecaps and a significantly higher ocean level. It's still be a reference to the modern-day issue of global warming, but with an alien-initiative twist that could possibly act as a redeeming factor (if done right of course). As for Hardy's take on pollution, I think that there's not a lot to diverge from, actually, because canon Oni is no longer hammering it home as "industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada". Jamie was killed by an unidentified "virus", there are mad scientists doing ghastly stuff (Navarre), bioweapons are hinted at in the manual, and Phase tech can "enhance" man-made pestilence further, power-of-seven-fold if needed. So it's not like WPs are pure eco-activist cliché and can only be redeemed through alien ingerence. At least that's how I feel about it. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:18, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::Well, alien-engineered global warming sure would come in handy if it made Earth more "waterworldy". I may be getting it wrong, but your Daomen/Diluvians would actually be at home in a world with no icecaps and a significantly higher ocean level. It's still be a reference to the modern-day issue of global warming, but with an alien-initiative twist that could possibly act as a redeeming factor (if done right of course). As for Hardy's take on pollution, I think that there's not a lot to diverge from, actually, because canon Oni is no longer hammering it home as "industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada". Jamie was killed by an unidentified "virus", there are mad scientists doing ghastly stuff (Navarre), bioweapons are hinted at in the manual, and Phase tech can "enhance" man-made pestilence further, power-of-seven-fold if needed. So it's not like WPs are pure eco-activist cliché and can only be redeemed through alien ingerence. At least that's how I feel about it. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:18, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
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::::::::::I appreciate the flexibility. You're correct that the Daodan doesn't *need* alien ingerence (whatever that is), but without it, there's no clear nemesis driving the plot. The antagonist was going to be who, the Old Man, just doing what he thinks is right? I wanted to have a struggle for survival that feels urgent, like a clash of two worlds. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::I appreciate the flexibility. You're correct that the Daodan doesn't *need* alien ingerence (whatever that is), but without it, there's no clear nemesis driving the plot. The antagonist was going to be who, the Old Man, just doing what he thinks is right? I wanted to have a struggle for survival that feels urgent, like a clash of two worlds. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::My point about alien ingerence (and lack of need thereof) is simply that Oni's civilization was fully capable of polluting vast tracts of "ignorable" land in many exotic and blood-chilling ways, without the need for alien agents seeding the Earth with xenoforming life. There's hazardous waste both industrial and military, there's rogue science both prior to and during the WCG era, and there's the "phase twist" that allows a "xeno" threat to emerge from man-made waste, without being backed up by an "enemy" that's planning an "invasion". The same goes for the "clear nemesis driving the plot" -- there doesn't need to be any. Note how, in Oni, Konoko makes an enemy of everyone just by asserting herself, and eventually ends up with as much blood on her hands as her supposed nemesis of a brother. It's this tragic and disproportionate "antihero's quest" that characterizes Oni, complemented by the dystopian context and the "alien"/hyperevolutionary origin of the estrangement. If anything, it honors the "no one left to trust" tagline. --23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::My point about alien ingerence (and lack of need thereof) is simply that Oni's civilization was fully capable of polluting vast tracts of "ignorable" land in many exotic and blood-chilling ways, without the need for alien agents seeding the Earth with xenoforming life. There's hazardous waste both industrial and military, there's rogue science both prior to and during the WCG era, and there's the "phase twist" that allows a "xeno" threat to emerge from man-made waste, without being backed up by an "enemy" that's planning an "invasion". The same goes for the "clear nemesis driving the plot" -- there doesn't need to be any. Note how, in Oni, Konoko makes an enemy of everyone just by asserting herself, and eventually ends up with as much blood on her hands as her supposed nemesis of a brother. It's this tragic and disproportionate "antihero's quest" that characterizes Oni, complemented by the dystopian context and the "alien"/hyperevolutionary origin of the estrangement. If anything, it honors the "no one left to trust" tagline. --23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::It's hard to be interested in the story of an Oni 2 if there's no concrete enemy or existential threat. You seem to want to avoid any clear source of drama. Yes, it's always possible to tell a story populated largely with shades of gray instead of good/bad guys and clear agendas. Oni was definitely aiming in the former direction. But in the end, there's still one side that's clearly evil compared to the other. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::Also, if there's one thing I don't want to repeat in a sequel, it's the "no one left to trust" angle. That's been done quite thoroughly by the end of the first game. That's why one of my themes for Oni 2 was going to be finding someone that Mai *can* trust, as well as learning how to trust again. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::The antagonist in "my" Oni 2 would have been the deeply alienated head of the META technocracy (best seen as a "collective Mukade"). Very broadly, META is a Daodan-enhanced government, forcing hyperevolutionary paradigm shifts on post-Oni society and essentially xenoforming civilization itself (rather than the biosphere's lower lifeforms). The natural resistance to this process is embodied by Phoenix folks (in the same way as Konoko's mind and body resist the hyperevolutionary alienation brought about by her Chrysalis). This is the basic concept of host-Chrysalis "symbiosis" (actually a struggle on the verge of insanity and alienation), transposed from the level of an individual to that of civilization as a whole. I've always thought of it as fairly straightforward and having enough plot-driving potential (once the initially underpowered protagonist reveals herself as a Daodan symbiote, she'll become an enemy both for META and for most of her Phoenix buddies). As for the ultimate goal for META's hyperevolution -- there doesn't have to be any, but if tropes must be, then either META is "good" and intends to avert a "clash of two worlds" kind of threat -- like the Diluvians waking up and/or phase portals opening all over the place (with water and/or Screamers and/or furry zerglings pouring through), or a good old comet or asteroid headed our way... Or, META is "evil", performing an increasingly unfathomable alienation of humanity, with little regard for those old-school humans who (like Phoenix - and Konoko?) are not welcoming such a transition. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::The antagonist in "my" Oni 2 would have been the deeply alienated head of the META technocracy (best seen as a "collective Mukade"). Very broadly, META is a Daodan-enhanced government, forcing hyperevolutionary paradigm shifts on post-Oni society and essentially xenoforming civilization itself (rather than the biosphere's lower lifeforms). The natural resistance to this process is embodied by Phoenix folks (in the same way as Konoko's mind and body resist the hyperevolutionary alienation brought about by her Chrysalis). This is the basic concept of host-Chrysalis "symbiosis" (actually a struggle on the verge of insanity and alienation), transposed from the level of an individual to that of civilization as a whole. I've always thought of it as fairly straightforward and having enough plot-driving potential (once the initially underpowered protagonist reveals herself as a Daodan symbiote, she'll become an enemy both for META and for most of her Phoenix buddies). As for the ultimate goal for META's hyperevolution -- there doesn't have to be any, but if tropes must be, then either META is "good" and intends to avert a "clash of two worlds" kind of threat -- like the Diluvians waking up and/or phase portals opening all over the place (with water and/or Screamers and/or furry zerglings pouring through), or a good old comet or asteroid headed our way... Or, META is "evil", performing an increasingly unfathomable alienation of humanity, with little regard for those old-school humans who (like Phoenix - and Konoko?) are not welcoming such a transition. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::See my comments above on my preference for a more concrete story. There's nothing wrong with an alienated techno-hegemon, but if he's the only villain in the story, it feels a bit world-weary for me. I want a sense of urgency and visceral danger in Oni 2. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::P.S. Here I was, looking into [[wp:Ediacaran biota|Ediacaran biota]] and the [[wp:Hallucigenia|Cambrian explosion]] (musing on possible Diluvian candidates), and then it hit me: tectonics! There is actually a major problem with the Diluvians going into a deep stasis following the P-Tr extinction event, and regaining consciousness only 250+ Ma later. As it is, plate tectonics have either subducted or elevated the entirety of the pre-Triassic seabed (Panthalassa), so either way the Diluvians would have gone from dormant to extinct long before they'd have had a chance to "stir up trouble" in 2000 AD. The only way to resolve this is to imply that, in the meantime, the Diluvians haven't just been "stirring in their sleep" to make adjustments to the biosphere; they must also have had a cycle where they'd wake up and relocate -- away from subduction trenches and towards oceanic rifts. During such "sleepwalking" events they'd probably be even more phase-active than while "stirring", triggering episodes of high "phase presence", along with evolutionary explosions. The emergence of phase phenomena prior to Oni's events, and the possible alienation of Wilderness Preserves can be part of such an event -- a mere side effect of Diluvian migration along the ocean floor, rather than a "deliberate" xenoforming, let alone a means to an "invasion". It will still be ominous, of course, but rather because of the wide range of phase hazards (and alienating mutations) that the otherwise placid creatures are causing to appear. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:58, 30 June 2020 (CEST)
:::::::::::P.S. Here I was, looking into [[wp:Ediacaran biota|Ediacaran biota]] and the [[wp:Hallucigenia|Cambrian explosion]] (musing on possible Diluvian candidates), and then it hit me: tectonics! There is actually a major problem with the Diluvians going into a deep stasis following the P-Tr extinction event, and regaining consciousness only 250+ Ma later. As it is, plate tectonics have either subducted or elevated the entirety of the pre-Triassic seabed (Panthalassa), so either way the Diluvians would have gone from dormant to extinct long before they'd have had a chance to "stir up trouble" in 2000 AD. The only way to resolve this is to imply that, in the meantime, the Diluvians haven't just been "stirring in their sleep" to make adjustments to the biosphere; they must also have had a cycle where they'd wake up and relocate -- away from subduction trenches and towards oceanic rifts. During such "sleepwalking" events they'd probably be even more phase-active than while "stirring", triggering episodes of high "phase presence", along with evolutionary explosions. The emergence of phase phenomena prior to Oni's events, and the possible alienation of Wilderness Preserves can be part of such an event -- a mere side effect of Diluvian migration along the ocean floor, rather than a "deliberate" xenoforming, let alone a means to an "invasion". It will still be ominous, of course, but rather because of the wide range of phase hazards (and alienating mutations) that the otherwise placid creatures are causing to appear. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:58, 30 June 2020 (CEST)
::::::::::::Not a bad suggestion about the aliens' occasional stirrings leading to an increase in phase activity. I was aware of the issue with ocean floor subduction (see [[Oni2:Slaves_of_War/Story]] and search for "ocean floor"). I considered it a positive, as even if there was an alien civilization down there at the time of the P-Tr boundary, it would be buried by now, thus explaining why we haven't noticed its ruins. In fact, rather than our needing to explain how all the aliens could still be alive, the continual overturning of the ocean floor could actually explain why there are so few of them left, as I desired to be the case in my story. Perhaps only some of their sleep chambers have stayed out of trouble and survived this long. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)


===Daodan Genesis===
===Daodan Genesis===