Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions

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Geyser

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 :::::::::::::::Slight déjà vu notwithstanding, let me stress again that we ''do'' agree about the "wall"/veil thing -- there is the frontier/boundary that is in our immediate reach, and the world(s) that may lie beyond it. Hardy makes a distinction between the "veil" and the Screamers' homeworld (unnamed), so perhaps that means that we should make that distinction, too (if we're keen on honoring Hardy's post-canon revelations, that is). My only amendment to this view -- already stated above -- is that the parallel worlds (if any) are not something that we can perceive or access directly, therefore ''from our point of view they effectively make one with the "veil"'' (unless/until we manage to probe the "other side" somehow). Hence our freedom to attribute a loose collective term (Phase) ''both'' to the frontier ''and'' to whatever may lie beyond (because Oni's scientists simply don't know better, and cannot distinguish the "veil" from the "worlds beyond" in the same way as us writers do). In that view, the capitalized Phase can be seen as designating the whole range of uncharted phase-space -- "veil" and "world(s) beyond" combined -- which to me seems like a valid metonymy. If it works for you, consider it a popular-mechanics kind of shorthand for the "real thing" (the technical term could be something like "Earth-phase-congruant spacetime manifold"). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:09, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
 ::::::::::::::::Okay, I get it now that you've explained that the Phase and the veil are the same in your mind, since the other side is not being explored or glimpsed clearly. I still think it's a mistake to lump them together in a single term, because from my standpoint I want to know exactly what is on the other side. If the only people using the term "Phase" (according to your definition) are some scientists within the story, that would make sense because it reflects their lack of knowledge, but if we also use the term, it discourages us from deciding what's really on the other side — an alternate-universe Earth? a past Earth? another type of universe altogether? But perhaps this is a case where you value ambiguity and I eschew it. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)
+:::::::::::::::::I am investing more brains into this than I used to, so this is no longer a case of "procrastinated ambiguity" on my part. Rather, I am still brainstorming, whereas you seem to have a rather complete wishlist already. That said, you're also not 100% clear as for "what is on the other side" (even assuming you could "know for sure" somehow). First you hint at alien ingerence from beyond the veil (as if from an alternate universe or Earth), then it turns out that it's echoes from a distant past, and finally they're not echoes at all, just remote control from the seabed. Even if you see this as a carefully constructed series of revelations where you as a writer know ''exactly'' what's going on (i.e. that it's all here-and-now-ish, at least the Diluvian survivors) -- you are not saying how the Diluvians contracted Daodan powers in the first place, and where from (if it's from the Phase, then doesn't that mean that there ''is'' an alternate Earth/universe out there? and if so, just what have you disambiguated, really?). Also, what about Screamers? Are they also from a past Earth? It's OK not to know, and you don't have to lay it all out in advance. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:52, 4 July 2020 (CEST)
+:::::::::::::::::The "Phase" moniker could be used by scientists and laymen alike, not unlike "Space". (When people say "Space", they can mean Earth orbit, outer space, distant galaxies and nebulae, stars and exoplanets, etc.) People naturally make the distinction between where they are and where they aren't. "Zero-phase Earth" is where people live and do science, and "out-of-phaseness" can be perceived more or less collectively and indiscriminately (disambiguating when needed, just as for Space). As briefly mentioned in a footnote on that other page, it's completely OK to treat "near" and "far" out-of-phaseness as a continuum, at least a priori. There can be any number of "alien Earths" out there, or there could be just one or two of those, or there could be none (i.e. there is just the "veil" -- impenetrable, getting thicker and more chaotic as you push in -- that allows you to boomerang back to Earth in a different place or time, but doesn't have a threshold depth past which you'd cross over to a new place). As another consideration, Phase properties don't need to be constant in time. Oni's world apparently saw a "phase emergence" in the late XX century that either was spontaneous or had something to do with the Diluvians. So maybe in the XIX century, even with the best probing technology, scientists wouldn't have detected much of a "veil", let alone "other worlds" -- and, conversely, with fully awake Diluvians (or an otherwise much larger Phase presence) there could be stable portals into "alien Earths", starting with the Screamer homeworld mentioned by Hardy. All these possibilities can unfold over time, because the Phase is subject to change. And it can seriously spice up the post-Oni world even if there isn't much of a fight with Diluvians per se. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:52, 4 July 2020 (CEST)
 :::::::::::::P.S. About the Phase/veil -- "you can warp/travel through it, but you can't live there permanently" -- except maybe if you're immaterial? In the case of Screaming Cells and Daodan entities, there are no clear rules that would prevent them from living "in" the veil, so to speak -- as temporary/timeless disturbances of this ever-changing "fringe/hub world". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:42, 20 June 2020 (CEST)
 :::::::::::Just so you know (or remember), projected weapons for "my" Oni2 included a "halver" (something that would decrease your presence in this world with every hit, and shifting presence to "another world" (or to immaterial "limbo presence"); while "halved" you would be less visible to others, and you would get visions of the Phase (and/or of the "other" world). Same for teleporting -- while "phased out" your vision of the "real world" is blurred and augmented with "phase visions", not unlike wearing the ring in Jackson's LOTR. I also wanted to have "screaming swords" and "screaming whips" -- life-draining, blood-less "cold weapons", which would operate and look similarly to Spirit claws/tentacles from Final Fantasy: The Spirit Within. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)
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 :::::::::::::::It would be rather anthropocentric to interpret a threat to humankind as "the destruction of the world". Hasegawa's comparatively humble endeavor was to let the world move on while allowing humans to survive the change. Whether he was a prophet, and what of, is debatable. Impending doom is not something I find very compelling (boring, rather), but that's just my opinion. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 16:09, 29 June 2020 (CEST)
 ::::::::::::::::There's nothing wrong with a little anthropocentrism from the characters in the story. We routinely use the expression "end of the world" in English to mean the end of human civilization, or even just the end of human life as we know it. And Hasegawa wasn't trying to let nature be nature, or anything so ecologically motivated. He was trying to save humans the only way he could think of, which was to change us, not the world. Finally, impending doom for mankind is indeed a bit clichéd, but I think the bigger problem with it as a source of drama is that the outcome is predictable. When one raises the stakes of one's story to "Will the main character live or die?" or "Will the world end?", anyone who takes themself out of the story for a moment will know how it's going to end. So it's worth considering alternate stakes, such as my suggestion that the symbiotes are linked in a life-or-death way to the Wilderness, so if the Wilderness is defeated, Konoko dies, but if it's allowed to remain, it will inevitably overtake the world. The matter of defeating the Diluvians (now you've got me saying it) may have a more predictable outcome, but it's not the only point on which the story turns, so there is more to keep the audience in suspense. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:49, 3 July 2020 (CEST)
+:::::::::::::::::I didn't say (Vanilla) Hasegawa was ecologically motivated! Poor choice of words, probably. I said he'd "let the world move on", but really meaning he couldn't help it going to hell (or could he? as you know, the whole point of TNZ is that he thought he ''could'', insofar as the Syndicate could be infiltrated and used as an "alienated" tool, for ACC retro-fitting and who knows what else.). So he (the Vanilla, non-TNZ Hasegawa) is humbly powerless in that respect, rather than deliberately letting nature be nature -- which means we're on the same page again, congratulations. Maybe we shouldn't be looking for disagreement in every sentence, instead finding favorable interpretations? ^_^ (maybe say things like: "assuming that by this-and-that you mean such-and-such, it looks like we agree; let me know if you meant something else") --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:52, 4 July 2020 (CEST)
+:::::::::::::::::As for your "suggestion that the symbiotes are linked in a life-or-death way to the Wilderness" -- apart from the Wilderness fixation I'm all for it, even though it's a bit of a trope. I've already said that the Wilderness (with its "alien" pathogens and relentless spreading) may not be the only trouble caused by the Diluvians: if the Phase becomes more and more active as the Diluvians awake from their stasis (e.g., to relocate), then there will be more and more phase glitches worldwide, portals to other worlds, Screamer invasions... in short, fun times to live in. But, conversely, when/if the Diluvians are killed (or go back to sleep), it is entirely possible that the Phase will collapse, i.e., entities will no longer be able to travel through the "veil" as easily or at all, and those that rely on the "veil" (like Konoko's Chrysalis?) will be disrupted. Whether this should kill Konoko is debatable -- mostly it depends on how dramatic (or trope-y) you want the story to be, and I suppose there will be ample opportunity to argue about this later. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:52, 4 July 2020 (CEST)
 :::::::::::::I wouldn't advise trivializing Oni canon and implying that the "straight" reading is that a WP is "just" a toxic waste dump, or that the origin of the waste is 100% industrial. We Do Not Know. Some elements of canon hint at a military origin for the waste (ghastly bioweapons that were either developed, tested or dumped in "easy to ignore" areas), or at unethical "rogue science" during the years preceding the WCG's firm technology control. A "phase twist" is also possible, like teleportation/annihilation experiments gone wrong, or phase-induced mutation of Earth organisms (not as elegant as the Chrysalis, but enough to make an impression on Hasegawa). You said "good points" to all of this down below -- when I said that Contaminated Zones weren't reduced to industrial dumps in Oni canon, and that there were lots of ways to detail them without resorting to alien ingerence. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 14:34, 19 June 2020 (CEST)
 ::::::::::On a sidenote, I don't see a strong correlation with Nausicaa's and my work, so perhaps this Miyazaki manga is just an obsession of yours. I could easily reduce your ideas to references to existing works as well, but haven't done so. "There is nothing new under the sun." All we can do is try to present old ideas in a new light. Presuming that you can create anything truly novel is vanity. And putting words in my mouth to make my ideas seem more Nausicaa-like is especially rude, so please stop. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)