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Talk:Shinatama: Difference between revisions
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:"Trickster puppet" still looks like the core meaning, even though the more appropriate reading is "trickery", more specifically referring to the art of sleight-of-hand. Additionally, it turns out that "Shinatama" (or rather "Shinadama") could be a reference to the art of juggling. (In both cases the '''shinatama/shinadama 品玉''' is an old term going back to the Edo era, whereas modern sleight-of-hand and juggling are termed differently.) | :"Trickster puppet" still looks like the core meaning, even though the more appropriate reading is "trickery", more specifically referring to the art of sleight-of-hand. Additionally, it turns out that "Shinatama" (or rather "Shinadama") could be a reference to the art of juggling. (In both cases the '''shinatama/shinadama 品玉''' is an old term going back to the Edo era, whereas modern sleight-of-hand and juggling are termed differently.) | ||
:It is worth noting that the "juggling" meaning of '''shinadama 品玉''' is perhaps lesser-known than the "sleight-of-hand" meaning, because of how the latter was perpetuated in visually arresting automaton form; and it is also in its automaton incarnation that '''shinadama 品玉''' seems to have evolved into a definite '''shinatama 品玉''', with a "T". | :It is worth noting that the "juggling" meaning of '''shinadama 品玉''' is perhaps lesser-known than the "sleight-of-hand" meaning, because of how the latter was perpetuated in visually arresting automaton form; and it is also in its automaton incarnation that '''shinadama 品玉''' seems to have evolved into a definite '''shinatama 品玉''', with a "T". | ||
:Then again, as seen in the case of the "Juggler of the Chinese ball", the two pronunciations "dama" and "tama" can be used interchangeably for the juggling act as well. So it is possible to see the name Shinatama as meaning either "trickster" or "juggler" (choosing the more intuitive "actor" naming over the literal metonymy, which would be "trickery" or "juggling"). Juggling | :Then again, as seen in the case of the "Juggler of the Chinese ball", the two pronunciations "dama" and "tama" can be used interchangeably for the juggling act as well. So it is possible to see the name Shinatama as meaning either "trickster" or "juggler" (choosing the more intuitive "actor" naming over the literal metonymy, which would be "trickery" or "juggling"). Juggling makes sense seeing as how much data Shinatama has to deal with, whereas trickery as a theme is somewhat harder to justify in-universe (though not much harder than, say, "[[Damocles]]"). | ||
:Last but not least, there is always a possibility to play with the writing of a given name, for additional connotations/interpretations. For what it's worth, the Japanese version of Oni spells out the name Shinatama as katakana (シナタマ), without favoring one reading or the other. | :Last but not least, there is always a possibility to play with the writing of a given name, for additional connotations/interpretations. For what it's worth, the Japanese version of Oni spells out the name Shinatama as katakana (シナタマ), without favoring one reading or the other. | ||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 20:39, 2 August 2021 (CEST) | ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 20:39, 2 August 2021 (CEST) | ||
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::::Is that a trick question? ^_^ It's an ''in-universe'' justification of such a naming that I find hard to justify, even more so than for Damocles. (For the sake of the argument I am going to pretend that the name "Damocles" made the cut, and that it designates either the tall mainframe that Shinatama's attached to – processing Konoko's data – or Griffin's whole anti-Muro program.) In the case of Damocles it sort of makes sense, humility-wise, to pick a name that reflects the precariousness and uncertainty that come with Daodan symbiosis. But setting up an android to act as a reliable interface between Konoko and HQ, and having trickery in mind while naming said android – that's a totally different level of foreshadowing. Like having treason in a story and naming the traitor's character Judas/Brutus/Ganelon/etc. So I ''like'' to think that whoever named Shinatama (in-universe) had juggling in mind, rather than sleight-of-hand or general trickery. Or, if they were aware of the sleight-of-hand connotations, they might have deemed them innocent enough, and in no way ominous: "Let's not forget SLDs are like automatons, shall we? She may be a trickster, but she's ''our'' trickster" – that kind of confidence on the part of the one who did the naming ''might'' work, although personally I find it a bit annoying when combined with the "Damocles" and "trouble-making" themes (it's like Griffin knows from the start that he's fighting a losing battle, and keeps naming stuff accordingly). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 00:35, 3 August 2021 (CEST) | ::::Is that a trick question? ^_^ It's an ''in-universe'' justification of such a naming that I find hard to justify, even more so than for Damocles. (For the sake of the argument I am going to pretend that the name "Damocles" made the cut, and that it designates either the tall mainframe that Shinatama's attached to – processing Konoko's data – or Griffin's whole anti-Muro program.) In the case of Damocles it sort of makes sense, humility-wise, to pick a name that reflects the precariousness and uncertainty that come with Daodan symbiosis. But setting up an android to act as a reliable interface between Konoko and HQ, and having trickery in mind while naming said android – that's a totally different level of foreshadowing. Like having treason in a story and naming the traitor's character Judas/Brutus/Ganelon/etc. So I ''like'' to think that whoever named Shinatama (in-universe) had juggling in mind, rather than sleight-of-hand or general trickery. Or, if they were aware of the sleight-of-hand connotations, they might have deemed them innocent enough, and in no way ominous: "Let's not forget SLDs are like automatons, shall we? She may be a trickster, but she's ''our'' trickster" – that kind of confidence on the part of the one who did the naming ''might'' work, although personally I find it a bit annoying when combined with the "Damocles" and "trouble-making" themes (it's like Griffin knows from the start that he's fighting a losing battle, and keeps naming stuff accordingly). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 00:35, 3 August 2021 (CEST) | ||
:::::Oh, I misunderstood. When you wrote "In other words, it's as if Shinatama's name had been picked to be 'trickery'", I thought you were talking about the choice made in the real world by BWest. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:40, 3 August 2021 (CEST) | :::::Oh, I misunderstood. When you wrote "In other words, it's as if Shinatama's name had been picked to be 'trickery'", I thought you were talking about the choice made in the real world by BWest. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 00:40, 3 August 2021 (CEST) | ||
::::::The fragment you're referring to is indeed about the real-world choice at Bungie West (well, mostly), but at that point I am merely pointing out the somewhat awkward metonymy, i.e., how "trickster"/"juggler" comes more naturally as a character's name than "trickery"/"juggling", and how it's possibly more stilted than in the case of Daodan (if you go along with the Chinese origin), because Daodan is adjectivized in most of Oni's contexts, and Shinatama isn't. Taken separately, this metonymy issue is more about general linguistics, and less about foreshadowing any of Oni's events, so it exists both in the real world and in-universe. Later on I say that "trickery as a theme is somewhat harder to justify in-universe", and at this point I am indeed looking at Shinatama's naming from the perspective of Kerr&Griffin&Co: if deception is essentially Shinatama's middle name, then how reliable do they expect her to be? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:33, 3 August 2021 (CEST) | |||
==Dox: One more cent, the artificial soul== | ==Dox: One more cent, the artificial soul== | ||