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My final 2 ''rhetoric'' cents on this: Omg, why didn't you just release that god damn thing on the AE main page... It would have been better than nothing. --[[User:Paradox-01|paradox-01]] ([[User talk:Paradox-01|talk]]) 11:00, 11 April 2023 (CEST) | |||
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Geyser, I may be able to record that sequence at a better quality. Increasing the resolution of the texture used may help too. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 01:30, 28 July 2008 (CEST) | Geyser, I may be able to record that sequence at a better quality. Increasing the resolution of the texture used may help too. [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 01:30, 28 July 2008 (CEST) | ||
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:::On the use of "kawaii" here: the second part of the intro uses a pentatonic Asian-ish theme. This section also comes across as cheerful and humorous in a "cute" way after the somewhat dramatic opening. | :::On the use of "kawaii" here: the second part of the intro uses a pentatonic Asian-ish theme. This section also comes across as cheerful and humorous in a "cute" way after the somewhat dramatic opening. | ||
:::The trailer is not the place for pointing out flaws and making them part of our showcase (with booooorrrrriiiiinnnnggg footage as Loser puts it). ''So what'' if Oni's original AI sucked at pursuit, melee or dodging gunfire - that's not new, and it's not the exact point why people shoud check out the ''Edition'', is it? The point is that in the Edition, they ''do'' behave in a realistic and challenging way, and that's what we want the people to see. Of course, before the footage there'll be a minimal comment saying "faster AI" or something but interleaving before-after and sucks-rocks is anticlimatic IMO. If our stuff looks so awesome and fits in so well that it feels like it's always been there, all the better. If you want to add more insight into why such-and-such feature is a breakthrough, YouTube lets you add annotations to the video after you upload it. Something like "original AI didn't dodge projectiles at all" or "original AI ran much slower than the player". You won't waste time on "artificially lame" footage of pre-Edition Oni, and you won't introduce breaks in our non-stop display of awesomeness ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:50, 29 July 2008 (CEST) | :::The trailer is not the place for pointing out flaws and making them part of our showcase (with booooorrrrriiiiinnnnggg footage as Loser puts it). ''So what'' if Oni's original AI sucked at pursuit, melee or dodging gunfire - that's not new, and it's not the exact point why people shoud check out the ''Edition'', is it? The point is that in the Edition, they ''do'' behave in a realistic and challenging way, and that's what we want the people to see. Of course, before the footage there'll be a minimal comment saying "faster AI" or something but interleaving before-after and sucks-rocks is anticlimatic IMO. If our stuff looks so awesome and fits in so well that it feels like it's always been there, all the better. If you want to add more insight into why such-and-such feature is a breakthrough, YouTube lets you add annotations to the video after you upload it. Something like "original AI didn't dodge projectiles at all" or "original AI ran much slower than the player". You won't waste time on "artificially lame" footage of pre-Edition Oni, and you won't introduce breaks in our non-stop display of awesomeness ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 13:50, 29 July 2008 (CEST) | ||
::::I could argue that using Pursuit, and timing the cuts between before-and-after to its rhythm had a good effect, but it's true that I was going for a slower feel. I'm not one of those [ | ::::I could argue that using Pursuit, and timing the cuts between before-and-after to its rhythm had a good effect, but it's true that I was going for a slower feel. I'm not one of those [https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000881/ fast-cutting, rock-music-blaring kind] of editors, I prefer a cooler, more composed approach, such as what you see in the 1999 trailer. But I think I can find a balance between what you and I conceived of. Give me a bit to throw together a draft that uses your opening & music and see how you like it. I am not at full productive capacity yet, post-move, but soon my office will be set up and I can grind something out. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 19:11, 29 July 2008 (CEST) | ||
;Off-topic but not quite:As for what you're doing to Motoko, it may be a good idea to show your results-so-far and report your problems ASAP. Don't let your pride become a major time sink. Also, I haven't gotten back at you on Mutant Griffin: do you want me to, or should I have a look at your latest fixes first? | ;Off-topic but not quite:As for what you're doing to Motoko, it may be a good idea to show your results-so-far and report your problems ASAP. Don't let your pride become a major time sink. Also, I haven't gotten back at you on Mutant Griffin: do you want me to, or should I have a look at your latest fixes first? | ||
::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 23:59, 28 July 2008 (CEST) | ::[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 23:59, 28 July 2008 (CEST) | ||
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:Some good scenes in there, but overall it's still anticlimatic (due to poor/nonexistent audio-video synchronization and/or mediocre on-screen action). It doesn't get any worse than the "dead comrade" scene, but that's of little comfort ^_^ Most of my objections are beyond verbal commentary, so I will just provide you with short drafts or storyboards when I can. Below are just a few points that I think need stressing. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST) | :Some good scenes in there, but overall it's still anticlimatic (due to poor/nonexistent audio-video synchronization and/or mediocre on-screen action). It doesn't get any worse than the "dead comrade" scene, but that's of little comfort ^_^ Most of my objections are beyond verbal commentary, so I will just provide you with short drafts or storyboards when I can. Below are just a few points that I think need stressing. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST) | ||
*After the No One Left To Trust soundtrack kicks in, there ought to be a randomly awesome mixed-bag section without an introduction of any kind (except for the "seven years later"). Right now, you have a (static -_- ) white Spartan chaingunning at the (static -_- ) camera through glass. That's random enough, sure, but it only lasts a split second (''and'' it's static -_- ) and the next moment you start shooting taglines at the viewer... That's strange. Why don't you move some segments of OTA gameplay and gmsly's mod over to the start? Under those thematic headers of yours, they may look more or less out of place, but in opening/closing mixed bags they'll always be at home; and that'll also help you avoid putting three sequences of gmsly's mod one after the other - that, too, is strange. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST) | *After the No One Left To Trust soundtrack kicks in, there ought to be a randomly awesome mixed-bag section without an introduction of any kind (except for the "seven years later"). Right now, you have a (static -_- ) white Spartan chaingunning at the (static -_- ) camera through glass. That's random enough, sure, but it only lasts a split second (''and'' it's static -_- ) and the next moment you start shooting taglines at the viewer... That's strange. Why don't you move some segments of OTA gameplay and gmsly's mod over to the start? Under those thematic headers of yours, they may look more or less out of place, but in opening/closing mixed bags they'll always be at home; and that'll also help you avoid putting three sequences of gmsly's mod one after the other - that, too, is strange. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST) | ||
*Your coverage of "modding power" was surprising, which is probably a good thing. But there's stuff to edit and polish even there. For example, I'd avoid showing editor views of ripped levels: my current impression is that they scream "big-time EULA violation!", at least if there is no added value; I will try and provide replacement footage using one of [[ | *Your coverage of "modding power" was surprising, which is probably a good thing. But there's stuff to edit and polish even there. For example, I'd avoid showing editor views of ripped levels: my current impression is that they scream "big-time EULA violation!", at least if there is no added value; I will try and provide replacement footage using one of [[New levels|our new levels]]. Another issue is Motoko. Her hair still looks like someone barfed a bunch of polygons together, and her face also looks quite rough for its polycount. So I'd think twice before showing her if I were you... just a thought ^_^ --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST) | ||
*The ending sucks. My first viewing was a casual one, and I honestly didn't notice the bomber at all. For me it was just another drawn-out OTA scene shot with a boring static camera. The falling bomber and the subsequent explosion are actually very ignorable (people falling, things exploding - just how is that different from the previous minute and a half? ^_^ If you want to show a bomber going off, you have to ''really'' show the bomber going off. There are plenty of ways to capture the explosion in a visually stunning way: you can wear a shield, or go into overpower, or "flee... sexily" like in [ | *The ending sucks. My first viewing was a casual one, and I honestly didn't notice the bomber at all. For me it was just another drawn-out OTA scene shot with a boring static camera. The falling bomber and the subsequent explosion are actually very ignorable (people falling, things exploding - just how is that different from the previous minute and a half? ^_^ If you want to show a bomber going off, you have to ''really'' show the bomber going off. There are plenty of ways to capture the explosion in a visually stunning way: you can wear a shield, or go into overpower, or "flee... sexily" like in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0x7LNwRpvo THIS] video at 2:30. And to top it off the sync of your ending with the music is awful. After the explosion, there's almost a second of intense soundtrack and zero onscreen action. You could have synced the explosion with the end of the music, for instance. But I think the ending needs to be much more intense than that sequence anyway. Something like [http://geyser.oni2.net/edition/trailer/outro_example.wmv THIS] (just an example; other scenes are possibly more fitting, from creative meta-shapeshifting to [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa-h6lXQ-p4 walking Iron Demon]). Note the ending credits: same font everywhere (your alternative use of tall and wide fonts is, well, strange, even without the serifs at the end). "ONi" is admittedly awkward, but I wanted it that way in this version. Eventually we can go for small caps (sans serif please) or for something special like "Bungie's O<small>N</small>i", or we can keep the lowercase "n" (after all, that's the way the logo looked in 1998). The effects and timing of the ending titles are of course primitive. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST) | ||
*The above problem (poor directing) comes up in a few other places. Muro's shotgun, for example, will be perfectly unintelligible even in lossess 640x480, at that distance. An example of a situation where the appearance of new weapons will be unignorable is the sniper scope (imagine that Striker swinging a shotgun as he runs towards you, or trying to nail you with Muro's Tractor). Oh, and if you're serious about being happy with that "accidentally cinematic" scene (SBG chick with a messed-up TRMA, who spends ''ages'' reloading), or with the DeLorean footage (jerky manual camera and ghost midget in the foreground), then for the sake of all of us, set your sights a little higher. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:15, 23 September 2008 (CEST) | *The above problem (poor directing) comes up in a few other places. Muro's shotgun, for example, will be perfectly unintelligible even in lossess 640x480, at that distance. An example of a situation where the appearance of new weapons will be unignorable is the sniper scope (imagine that Striker swinging a shotgun as he runs towards you, or trying to nail you with Muro's Tractor). Oh, and if you're serious about being happy with that "accidentally cinematic" scene (SBG chick with a messed-up TRMA, who spends ''ages'' reloading), or with the DeLorean footage (jerky manual camera and ghost midget in the foreground), then for the sake of all of us, set your sights a little higher. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 18:15, 23 September 2008 (CEST) | ||
*Last but not least, for a file that's freaking over 80 megs, why the frack is the quality so rock-bottom crappy? Frankly, the compression is killing me, and you know I'm not the picky one... posterized shadows, bleeding colors, omnipresent interlacing... the works! --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST) | *Last but not least, for a file that's freaking over 80 megs, why the frack is the quality so rock-bottom crappy? Frankly, the compression is killing me, and you know I'm not the picky one... posterized shadows, bleeding colors, omnipresent interlacing... the works! --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 06:31, 23 September 2008 (CEST) | ||
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*"synchronization"; sigh. This is a two-prong issue I hoped to avoid talking about, but here goes: | *"synchronization"; sigh. This is a two-prong issue I hoped to avoid talking about, but here goes: | ||
:Issue #1: The audio; this is a chaotic song, with a fast tempo and little beat-differentiation, by which I mean, compare NOLTT to a track from my first trailer draft, "The Hunt"; hear how clear and measured the primary beats are? I find it difficult to hook my editing into the "rhythm" of NOLLT because I can hardly hear which way is up -- so cutting anything on a certain beat feels pointless. That being said, there is some intended and unintended synchro in the video: around 0'30", 0'32", 0'35", 0'38", 0'55.5", 1'03", 1'35", and 1'58". You're right that there is no consistency in the use of synch, though, which leads to... | :Issue #1: The audio; this is a chaotic song, with a fast tempo and little beat-differentiation, by which I mean, compare NOLTT to a track from my first trailer draft, "The Hunt"; hear how clear and measured the primary beats are? I find it difficult to hook my editing into the "rhythm" of NOLLT because I can hardly hear which way is up -- so cutting anything on a certain beat feels pointless. That being said, there is some intended and unintended synchro in the video: around 0'30", 0'32", 0'35", 0'38", 0'55.5", 1'03", 1'35", and 1'58". You're right that there is no consistency in the use of synch, though, which leads to... | ||
:Issue #2: Style; there's more than one philosophy to this kind of thing; while the mainstream trend in stuff like music videos is to religiously tie every cut and cool moment to a beat, some professionals prefer to let the music run its course and not perform such obvious edits; that kind of strict synchro approach can feel amateur ("Hey, look how nifty my editing is!"); that being said, some trailer music works great with synched video (Cf. this [ | :Issue #2: Style; there's more than one philosophy to this kind of thing; while the mainstream trend in stuff like music videos is to religiously tie every cut and cool moment to a beat, some professionals prefer to let the music run its course and not perform such obvious edits; that kind of strict synchro approach can feel amateur ("Hey, look how nifty my editing is!"); that being said, some trailer music works great with synched video (Cf. this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPdMER0f1uI Neo Ranga trailer]). | ||
:When I started editing to this hard, grinding music, it felt like I should let the music dictate mood, but not pacing -- in other words, let it drive the overall speed of the cuts and the content of the cuts, but not try to actually make those cuts in time with the music; with a more syncopated piece of audio, I would have gone the other way entirely (and I planned to do so in my original approach to the trailer with my personal picks for music). | :When I started editing to this hard, grinding music, it felt like I should let the music dictate mood, but not pacing -- in other words, let it drive the overall speed of the cuts and the content of the cuts, but not try to actually make those cuts in time with the music; with a more syncopated piece of audio, I would have gone the other way entirely (and I planned to do so in my original approach to the trailer with my personal picks for music). | ||
*"dead comrade" scene... what, you want an animated arrow pointing from the girl to the body she's looking at, and then an exclamation point popping up above her, and then little radio waves coming from her wrist when she calls for help? I don't know how to make that scene more explanatory, but i you have any <u>ideas</u>, not empty criticism, I'm all ears. | *"dead comrade" scene... what, you want an animated arrow pointing from the girl to the body she's looking at, and then an exclamation point popping up above her, and then little radio waves coming from her wrist when she calls for help? I don't know how to make that scene more explanatory, but i you have any <u>ideas</u>, not empty criticism, I'm all ears. | ||
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:These clips were all recorded by PC users, and it's not my fault your computers have crappy video capture/encoding abilities. Do you honestly think the handful of clips here are detracting from the trailer? Now, if you're being confused by the text that's interlaced, thinking that means the whole video is interlaced, well it's not; it's only the text rendering. I can't explain it, but I ''will'' look into it; it's a strange symptom but hopefully fixable. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:50, 23 September 2008 (CEST) | :These clips were all recorded by PC users, and it's not my fault your computers have crappy video capture/encoding abilities. Do you honestly think the handful of clips here are detracting from the trailer? Now, if you're being confused by the text that's interlaced, thinking that means the whole video is interlaced, well it's not; it's only the text rendering. I can't explain it, but I ''will'' look into it; it's a strange symptom but hopefully fixable. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] 21:50, 23 September 2008 (CEST) | ||
::Nothing personal, but I really have to go now. Given enough time I still intend to provide mini-drafts covering the full length of the trailer, complete with raw footage. You can interpret that as patronizing if you like, be my guest. Please don't resent the lack of constructive criticism about the "dead comrade" scene or the missing footage for the DeLorean: I already said and released [[AE:Trailer#Basic_idea_for_the_footage|All]] I [[AE:Trailer#Alarm_logic|Could]] in that respect, and I will say and release [[ | ::Nothing personal, but I really have to go now. Given enough time I still intend to provide mini-drafts covering the full length of the trailer, complete with raw footage. You can interpret that as patronizing if you like, be my guest. Please don't resent the lack of constructive criticism about the "dead comrade" scene or the missing footage for the DeLorean: I already said and released [[AE:Trailer#Basic_idea_for_the_footage|All]] I [[AE:Trailer#Alarm_logic|Could]] in that respect, and I will say and release [[Authoring custom camera animations|more]], eventually. As for all the rest, from [[wikipedia:Posterization|posterization]] to [http://geyser.oni2.net/oni1/music/09-Ambient_Suite.mp3 soundtrack] to <nowiki>http://onimia.ru/doc/game_gallery_res.php?2</nowiki> (dead link), I ''really'' can't afford to chat, and I'm ''really'' sorry about this. I knew it was a bad idea for me to speak up in the first place, but at least now you can be sure you'll get nothing out of me but constructive silence; communicating/arguing in "dribs and drabs" is not an option for me, and it will actually take me less time to deliver near-final trailer sections. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] 00:59, 24 September 2008 (CEST) | ||
:::<big>To geyser primarily, and to anyone else following this discussion secondarily: Please read the following meditatively. Yes, this is a long rant, but it's everything I need to say. And it's the last time I'll rant on anything within this community. I promise that solemnly. After this, there's no need to rant because if this doesn't hit home or have any effect, there's no point in repeating it, and I just have to move on emotionally from this whole thing.</big> | :::<big>To geyser primarily, and to anyone else following this discussion secondarily: Please read the following meditatively. Yes, this is a long rant, but it's everything I need to say. And it's the last time I'll rant on anything within this community. I promise that solemnly. After this, there's no need to rant because if this doesn't hit home or have any effect, there's no point in repeating it, and I just have to move on emotionally from this whole thing.</big> | ||
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:::::::: haha, I can give you that, EdT. [[User:Guido|Guido] | :::::::: haha, I can give you that, EdT. [[User:Guido|Guido] | ||
:::::::At least both of them (Irtiscen and geyser) want the best for Oni modding....even if they express it in different ways/priorities. :) [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 01:39, 26 September 2008 (CEST) | :::::::At least both of them (Irtiscen and geyser) want the best for Oni modding....even if they express it in different ways/priorities. :) [[User:Gumby|Gumby]] 01:39, 26 September 2008 (CEST) | ||
[[Category:Obsolete AE mods]] | |||