AE talk:BGI

I am commandeering this page for discussion of what needs to be done for BGI. --Gumby

1. Add BGI to levels
   1. We need to know where the first and major fights are going to be, levelwise. Until that is known, all that can be done is adding HalfLife style sightings in, but nothing more. That means you, geyser
   2. Start scripting it. That simple :)
2. Get a new model for the troops. The current one is a placeholder, right?
   1. Get some sort of sketch of what we want (geyser could do this, too :) )
   2. Have someone (Iritscen, maybe\probably) model it
   3. Put it in ^_^

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1. "That means you, geyser" - sorry, but what do you mean by "that"? What do you need me for? I've already told you: G-Man style sighting at the end of CHAPTER 02 . ENGINES OF EVIL and at the beginning of CHAPTER 04 . TIGER BY THE TAIL (DeLorean), minor fight as soon as in CHAPTER 07 . A FRIEND IN NEED, major fight in CHAPTER 10 . CAT AND MOUSE, and of course in CHAPTER 11 . DREAM DIVER, freestyle. I'd rather not give you more specifics at this point: let's see what you can deliver on your own along these guidelines. The G-Man sighting in CHAPTER 02 . ENGINES OF EVIL, for example: haven't I spelled it out already? need a picture? As for the fights, admittedly you need specific advice for CHAPTER 07 . A FRIEND IN NEED and CHAPTER 10 . CAT AND MOUSE, but in the case of CHAPTER 11 . DREAM DIVER you are already free to start: Konoko is haunted by BGI, which she may never have fought before, for all we care - like Muro.
2. No offense to Iritscen, but we have no modelers who can beat the placeholder. None. One fairly good option is to retexture the Chief to some extent, but we don't have many texture artists either: when SeverED is done with HD Konoko, we'll see what he can do about BGI items (armor, guns, vehicle), but - don't hold your breath. Another fair option is something like THIS: this takes less of a modeler (I guess both Gumby or Iritscen could get the hang of it, heck, even ONIrules... maybe), but there may be texturing involved, too, depending on what you want. But definitely, stick with the Chief for now, or go with the bastard thing if you're extra-bored - anything else is scope-creepy, duh.

Oh, and don't forget you've got the cutscenes and savepoints to do first, Gumby. Unless you have "good inspiration" for BGI, by all means stick to cutscene skipping and extra savepoints.

geyser 04:36, 17 November 2008 (CET)

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1. No, you didn't tell me. All I knew about was the G-Man sightings. :) That is exactly the sort of thing I've been needing, thanks.
2. No comment :)

Gumby 05:05, 17 November 2008 (CET)

Concept for BGI Troops

Use different parts from MC to enhance Fury, Elite, Strikers, etc, all are dressed in black. Perhaps giving all the BGI members the "white eyes".

EdT 18:10, 19 November 2008 (CET)

Wow, those look great! The one on the right is probably one of the best candidates. Any way you could change his eye color to blue? (I just wanna see what it looks like, and for more seperation from Elites. Gumby 18:21, 19 November 2008 (CET)

Like that :P Gumby 01:10, 20 November 2008 (CET)

Like this?

The receptionist fights like a fury and the Thug fights like a ninja, both are working undercover.

Level Plugin for Mac and PC http://edt.oni2.net/bgi/BGI_Troop.zip Updated Nov 20, 2008

Enjoy EdT 03:55, 20 November 2008 (CET)

Whoa! Looks nice. I think the Tanker needs a visor and\or a new hairstyle though. At the very least, give him brown\black hair :) :P Also, I would recommend giving him a full shirt, not some odd vest\arm combination. Receptionist needs normal eyes, or she will stand out. But that version might work for some sort of female exec. Also, the BGI-ninja looks a little too freaky. Ninja heads are odd enough on the slim bodies they have, but on a bigger body they look like some sort of insect.

Gumby 05:50, 20 November 2008 (CET)

On second thought, maybe orange is ok. But it needs to look a little less Syndicate clone (even though they are probably technically one and the same, you need to be able to differentiate them) Gumby 07:25, 20 November 2008 (CET)

Updated the look of some troops. How's this for a background story, Jubei and Akane are a brother and sister ninja team, they would always appear together in the game. EdT 02:31, 21 November 2008 (CET)

Tanker - much better :)

"Jubei" - I like his helmetless look. If it isn't too much work, does it look good if his eyes are blue, too? :P

"Akane" - I like her look a lot, but I'm not sure how well it will go with what little plans we have. I am still nervous about putting fury type enemies in. If you can give her something that makes her unique\interesting (different than normal Furies), it would improve her chances. I can't promise anything though.

"Jubei + Akane" - There aren't enough encounters for them to "always" be seen together, unless "always" is only one level :). And backstory won't been seen at all in the actual game. They might work as some sort of a boss, I guess, if Jubei was given a "heavier" style, for a more exciting fight.

Striker - Needs a different upper half completely. I would recommend adding Mukade style armour texturing on the torso, and doing something to the helmet to make it less Strikeresque. Maybe this - https://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3d-iron-man-helmet-model/424900 :D (Yes, "poor mans modding, but that helmet is awesome :) )

In general - "Less like Syndicate clones and more like Mukade" (paraphrased by geyser).

Giving some of the black parts reflectivity might look nice.

Overall, they look good, though the striker needs a lot of work. Gumby 05:59, 21 November 2008 (CET)

I will work at incorporating your comments into the next revision. Not sure when I'll have time, next few days will be busy. For Akane, what if we gave her the ninja TRAC? If so, I could increase the body size so the pelvis height matches the ninja, then scale her down in the ONCC. My thoughts for Jubei and Akane, is that they would always appear together, so if you script an encounter with Jubei, Akane will be there. Think of 2 for the price of 1 :)

If you have any other ideas for non-Syndicate clones types, let me know. EdT 06:53, 21 November 2008 (CET)

I am fine with either TRAC. I just want her to be unique...more than a Fury in a suit :). I'm not sure exactly what I want myself. Hmm. Maybe a lower face mask or something :) (including a neck guard). Maybe I ask too much :P

No hurry on making improvements though, the scripting hasn't even started yet. Gumby 07:07, 21 November 2008 (CET)

I've been following the conversation waiting to have something to say that Gumby hasn't already said; I mostly agree with everything he's written so far. But I think the Striker is too generic a foe, no matter how he's dressed up, to be BGI. Since we seem to be going in the direction of a more clandestine bunch of guys, might I recommend replacing the Striker with a BGI-fied Mercenary? Perhaps give him a weapon a bit more dangerous than even the Mercury Bow. The Mercenary appears much less in the game than Strikers, and in only one form, so I'd rather see a modded version of him on the BGI team. Secondly, I think the Tanker might be fine with just a visor added over the upper half of his face. I am ambivalent about hair color because I like the red so much. Also, how would lower-face ninja masks look on Akane and Jubei? Think traditional ninja masks, not the ninjas from the game. Finally, I am afraid that we are over-doing it with the white eyes, as cool as they look. I recommend giving normal, black eyes to the ninja siblings and the receptionist. And I am afraid that giving them to the Tanker will send mixed messages, since he is an SLD and the executives are human (well, perhaps augmented somehow, but not artifically-created, right?). Of course, adding a visor to the Tanker will hide his eyes anyway, making this point moot.

If any of this seems to require original modeling, and you want help, just let me know. --iritscen 14:38, 21 November 2008 (CET)

P.S.: As Gumby said, no hurry, really. --iritscen 16:22, 21 November 2008 (CET)

To add a visor to the Tanker will require 3D work, I'll leave that to you Iritscen. Perhaps we can use the particles from Onirules' plasma rifle in a different weapon for the Mercenary.

Jubei and Akane

Jubei's eyepatch seems like a step backwards :) If you really want him to cover an eye, give him an HUD thing :)

I like Akane's mask, but it looks like should extend down onto her neck (and wrap around to the back of her neck).

Sorry, not too much nice to say about this one. Their eyes look nice, if thats any consolation. Gumby 05:26, 22 November 2008 (CET)

Obviously you haven't hear of Yagyuu Jubei :) EdT

No, I haven't. :D. Either way, the eye patch seems a little silly to me. :)

Is there any way you could modernize the patch? (Still keeping the refernce, just making it look at home in Oni) Gumby 09:30, 22 November 2008 (CET)

Just to let you know, the latest version of your plugin screws up RF\DSK's trails. I don't know why ATM, I need to look inside your plugin. Gumby 08:57, 24 November 2008 (CET)

BGI Striker

I took a look at the Iron Man helmet, it has 248,800 polygons! Don't think Oni can handle that! :) My plugin only has ONCC, TRBS, TRMA, TXMP, ONWC and M3GM files, how could they mess up your RF\DSK trails? RF\DSK works fine in my game. EdT 06:03, 25 November 2008 (CET)

Helmet - isn't there some way you could downgrade the detail? :(

trails - I honestly have no idea. I'll have to try it on my fresh Oni install on my laptop.

Striker - looks better, though something about the proportions is bugging me, I'm not sure what. --Gumby 09:09, 25 November 2008 (CET)

I dunno, I think the Iron Man helmet is too recognizable to use here. --iritscen 17:01, 25 November 2008 (CET)

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(Older talk from April 2008)

Hey geyser: Thanks for the background info for the project. I'm sure you been reading about my struggles with importing the Masterchief into Oni.

Here is the link to my latest attempt: http://edt.oni2.net/3D/Masterchief_v1.zip includes the Blender and TRBS.oni files.

Please take a look at it, I think I'm getting closer. I've posted a video on YouTube to show the Masterchief in action.

EdT

Maybe you'd get even closer if you used this one: http://geyser.oni2.net/edition/spartan/mc_split.zip

He doesn't have shoulder body parts (yet?). From what I've seen he doesn't actually need any.

I'll probably provide a fully working character pack tonight (not final, but sorta showable).

geyser 16:18, 20 April 2008 (CEST)

geyser: I was using the version from owldreamer, which has all the parts. The main issues I had were getting the rotation of the body parts correct and placing the center points in the proper location. Also, I discovered that since the Masterchief is not the same size as the Elite, the legs and arms of the MC are shorter, the animations are off. MC floats over the ground, since his legs are short and when he grabs and lifts Konoko up there is a clear gap between his hands and Konoko. Further, depending on where you put the body on the x axis it affects whether or not the character is centered. Once I had the body left of the center grid in Blender and he appeared off center in the game.

EdT

owldreamer's parts are untextured, the overlaps suck big time, and he didn't even finish closing up the pelvis mesh. So my stuff is better.

As for the character size and center points and such: the workflow in XSI is OK; I'll let you know when I try and do the same thing in Blender.

Meanwhile, here's a fully functional Master Ninja Chief. Sources and .oni files included: http://geyser.oni2.net/edition/spartan/mc_ninja.zip

Enjoy. The pelvis/mid joint is ugly, so I wouldn't call him "final". I'll need to remodel the base of the midsection and/or tweak the spine a bit.

The ONCC is a completely new one, so he won't appear as an ally/opponent unless you edit the CHAR (I just use chr_set_class for testing).

Sorry again for not helping you out and doing all the work myself. I might give you a few general tips on Talk:Importing character models.

geyser 07:37, 21 April 2008 (CEST)

That was a great idea to use the Ninjabot as the reference model, since all the texture are in a single image. Though, somehow, I didn't picture the MC to be so nimble! :-)

FYI, I tried to import the .dae, but the importing failed in Blender.

Here is the error message;

 The minor version of the file you are using is newer then the plug-in, so errors may occur.
 image not found: file:///D:/geyser/edition/characters/chief/split/WhiteChief.tga
 scene.link(ob) deprecated! use scene.objects.link(ob) instead
 image not found: file:///D:/geyser/edition/characters/chief/split/WhiteChief.tga
 image not found: file:///D:/geyser/edition/characters/chief/split/WhiteChief.tga
 Traceback (most recent call last):
 File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/cstartup.py", line 609, in ButtonEvent
 File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 61, in __init__
 File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 67, in __Import
 File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 274, in Import
 File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 454, in LoadFromCollada
 File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 1811, in ObjectFromDae
 File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 1811, in ObjectFromDae
 File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 1811, in ObjectFromDae
 File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 1811, in ObjectFromDae
 File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 1767, in ObjectFromDae
 File "/blender-2.46RC2-OSX-10.3-py2.5-powerpc/blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts/bpymodules/colladaImEx/translator.py", line 1107, in LoadFromDae
 ValueError: list.index(x): x not in list

No apologies needed, actually, struggling with the 3D model, helped me learn more about the process than if you simply gave me the files.

On another note, I have an idea to add Motoko from GITS to Oni, perhaps as a "guest appearance" or in the dream level, a replacement for Evil Konoko.

Can you look at these models and see if we can use them, https://www.fileplanet.com/search.aspx?searchtype=2&q=motoko They are a Quake and Half life models, I don't have anything that can view them.

Also, I found this actual model and I thought we can use the outfit.

https://www.1999.co.jp/dbimages/user/hobby/itbig/10051368a.jpg

EdT

That was a great idea to use the Ninjabot as the reference model ... but I didn't. The poser was Mukade (because his armor matches the Chief's nicely).

As for the single-texture TRMA, I indeed copy-pasted the ninjabot's. Keep in mind that it's nothing but a temporary hack, though: the texture was downsampled.

And as for the reason why I picked the ninjabot ONCC: it's just about the ninja jumping skills and the few sound links. I didn't want the Spartans to speak at all.

I didn't picture the MC to be so nimble! Oh? Here's a pack with an "elite" and a "zilla" variant for ya: http://geyser.oni2.net/edition/spartan/mc_three.zip

I did the ninja first because of the similarities with Mukade, and because the idea is to explore possibilities before we can decide on their fighting style.

Even if we blend several animation sets together, it might make sense to have 2 or 3 complementary classes of BGI troops, for challenge and variety.

the importing failed in Blender. XSI's handling of material libraries and file paths is a bit overkill. Try the files in the 3-pack, see if they work better.

Anyway, Blender won't be able to load the animation in those .dae files, so just import-reextract them with OniSplit, or extract directly from the TRBS.

Actually, I can't re-use those .dae files in XSI as-is, either. XSI dumps some extra data there, and it messes up center-transform control unless deleted.

struggling with the 3D model, helped me learn more about the process than if you simply gave me the files Ahem, looks like I am guilty then ^_^

I mean, I am "simply giving you the files", ain't I? And I didn't help you learn about the process at all: your struggle with Blender is still rather clueless.

I have an idea to add Motoko from GITS to Oni, perhaps as a "guest appearance" or in the dream level, a replacement for Evil Konoko.. There are several problems with that, I'm afraid.

About the sculpture: hotlinking images from non-affiliated sites is heavily discouraged. Either mirror the image on edt.oni2.net or link to it in its original context, on the same site that hosts it.

About Motoko in general: I don't want to talk about her here and now. Not here because this is AE_talk:BGI. Not now because she's a case of pure fan service, and that's the last thing I'd do.

The Chief is a placeholder for a plotwise-relevant entity, whereas the Major just can't be a "serious" ingredient. An Easter egg, maybe, or a anecdotal cameo in the dream level, but not more.

She can't replace Evil Konoko because the point of Evil Konoko is that she's Konoko, duh. She could make sense as a "puppet master" and an avatar of Oni's engine (named after Motoko).

Anyway, as for "see if we can use them", the recent history has shown that the "we" that's capable of actually "using" skinned models is pretty much reduced to poor little me at the moment.

And I am not interested in FPS skins of Motoko, sorry. Fileplanet/Gamespy is evil, the [http://www.planetquake3.net/pic.php3?c=./images/motoko-1.jpg [broken link] Q3A] and HL skins are equally crappy, and even the JK3 skin is skimpy beyond all redemption...

More generally, assets recycled from 3d-party franchises will be a disgrace for Oni unless they fit in extremely well. Every such "joke" is a very bad one if we're just dumping content into Oni.

Take BGI, for example. It has good potential, both in terms of challenging gameplay and consolidated plot. But unless handled consistently, it will be no more than a shamelessly stolen MC.

I found this actual model and I thought we can use the outfit. This one looks good enough, but I'm not sure what you mean by "we can use the outfit", again.

If it's fan service we are after (multiplayer skins without multiplayer, or random easter eggs), then sure, we can set up an outfit resembling this easily enough.

Unlike for the Chief, there's absolutely no need to rip anything from anywhere. Oni already has plenty of readily swappable and retexturable female body parts.

With a few minor hairdo tweaks, you could bastardize Oni's meshes into something that looks pretty much like Motoko, or Strident, or Gally from GUNNM. Sure.

Using low-poly body parts such as Oni's is the best choice as far as I can tell. Smoother models are very likely to clash with Oni's overall graphical simplicity...

The essential know-how for such stuff (fan service, or any sophisticated bastardizing for that matter) is texturing. It takes a good texture artist to do those things.

geyser 06:12, 22 April 2008 (CEST)

The 3-pack is of course far from final. It's hard to get the shoulders to look right when aiming with a rifle, so it's not surprising that it looks ugly right now.

I'll take a break now, and when I'm back I'll probably fix the shoulders and make a music video. Splitting up the UV map and texture is a bit less of an emergency.

geyser 06:24, 22 April 2008 (CEST)

Thank you, I also posted the link to your Masterchief models at OCF.

Also, I sent you an email to your googlemail account.

EdT