Talk:BioCrisis

Originally from Restless_Souls/Reconstruction/Global_development

Please translate this into English. Expand and cross-link appropriately.

Allow for alternatives. Oh, and don't read too much into the manual ^_^

geyser

OK, the reason why I moved this here from the RS page is:

Once we have had enough multilateral exchange of thoughts

(and summarized the discussion in the BioCrisis article)

you'll no longer have to develop on the BioCrisis anywhere.

Instead you can link to the appropriate section of BioCrisis.

Of course nothing is "sealed": every page remains a notepad.

But it keeps the added value organized and easy to take in.

geyser 03:44, 4 October 2007 (CEST)

Now I think I'll proofread your translation and then comment.

Erm, no, I'll proofread it and let you reconsider, first ^_^

Maybe you'll want to fix a few hasty points you made.

geyser 03:44, 4 October 2007 (CEST)

As you see: the translation wasn't the best but also no 1-to-1 because the changes are wanted by me.

paradox-01

Yes, I noticed that, but I thought it was best to isolate the added value from the actual translation.

Since you tried to do an exact translation in most cases, I thought the extras were a bit confusing.

geyser 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST)

And the hasty points, ok, lets see:

We know from at least four sources (console reports, Fuji article, airport poster and Hasegawa's diary) that the smog (smog, really??? geyser)

Smog. Yes... We could say polluted air but that's what smog is, too. In Oni's case most of the population is concentrated in cities, and that is where smog gets heavy and poisonous. Now I wonder if the quarantine zones aren't cleaner. ^_^

paradox-01

When I read "smog", I inevitably think of Victorian London. Or Mexico. Or Beijing. Fumes blocking the daylight.

It is certainly tempting to see smog in Oni, but I'd make a difference between clean air and clear air.

The city air in Oni is definitely not clean, at least not all the time, and the air's toxicity is an issue.

It is, however, remarkably clear, even though late autumn is not the best period to scan a modern city for smog.

Note the presence of solar panels (of course they might make as little plotwise sense as other furniture).

There would be no solar panels on the rooftops or in CHAPTER 03 . PUZZLE PIECES in a smoggy city. IMO.

I think the WCG went to some radical improvements, e.g., made all personal vehicles electric.

geyser 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST)

According to an ACC report, "Class 4 airborne toxins" can arise during an overload (really??? geyser)

Nice... I mixed facts with my own interpretation. Seems that I wrote this without having a second look onto the material.

Mai "blew the processors" by "overloading the generators". And then I remembered "something" in the ACC report about toxins which will arise by an "accident or something"...

In fact (i.e., in a not re-interpreted storyline like Truth Number Zero) Muro's men sabotaged the ACCs so that they'd spread out "Class 4 airborne toxins" after the STURMANDERUNG pulse was sent.

Yeah, I think that's what happened. So, please, don't hit me or "something". ;-)

paradox-01

I'm not hitting you or anything, but you're meticulous, so I'm naturally nitpicking at you.

You can expect me to systematically "attack" any "approximate" reference to Oni's material ^_^

I will also "attack" internal inconsistencies of your own story, but we're not there yet ^_^

geyser 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST)

The meaning of both informative consoles in CHAPTER 07 . A FRIEND IN NEED starts and stops with Mai's interpretations.

She read about the inversion process, and thought that's what Sturmanderung was about.

She also read the ACCs were being tested tier by tier, and used that knowledge to blow them up.

Her intuition about Sturmanderung is "confirmed" by Muro's lines during their final encounter.

Still, any further assumptions are speculations, be it Truth Number Zero or your story.

geyser 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST)

Of course "we don't know that for sure", but with the upcoming global catastrophe (who can see it coming??? geyser)

To be more specific: almost every ACC on Earth was blown up and the people should know by themselves what this will mean for their future.

Additionally, the toxins will need some time to spread out and to take visible effect like diseases.

paradox-01

So you mean there's a delay between "die Sprengung der Prozessoren" and "the dead and the dying"?

That would explain why your post-Oni world is free of panic, riots, exodes, revolutions etc ^_^

In short, your version is definitely not "Apocalypse Now". Everyone has lots of time to spare.

geyser 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST)

Heh. Time is relative.^^ But in this case I would say "a lot of time".

My current image of the time frame is that the toxic air will be fully share-out in 3 day - reaching every corner of the world. (Then 1 day later first symptoms. Refugee will try to enter the big city. After 2 more: heavy symptoms and diseases, and panic because of decreasing resources, etc.)

paradox-01

Note, however, that the explosions are likely to vaporize and spread some toxins right away.

The ACCs produce clean air and very concentrated toxic waste (vats in CHAPTER 08 . AN INNOCENT LIFE)

Depending on the magnitude of the explosion, that waste may be spilled over the area normally covered by the ACC.

As for the accumulation of "regular" toxins by lack of ACCs, it could be the matter of days or even hours IMO.

If the toxins are as virulent as what allegedly hit Jamie, the onset of disease is fast, too.

So I don't think that the time scales will be "politically manageable" by the WCG or anyone...

geyser 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST)

Daodan talk moved

wow, are you reading Wikipedia upside down???

Maybe I just picked the right ones - and yes: the German wiki is smaller. Take a look HERE

paradox-01

Erm. Pax Americana is not really a conspiracy theory to me (then again, I'm a certified conspiracy theorist, so never mind me).

The WCG is a logical continuation of Pax Americana, so I'd suggest you get familiar with it, rather than go for politically correct substitutes.

Of course the German wikipedia is smaller, but you had me fearing that its articles were more biased as well (e.g., anti-US).

That is not the case, because you can find the very same info about Pax Americana on the English Wikipedia.

Again, I don't think of Pax Americana as a conspiracy theory. Just a not-too-comfortable geopolitical truth.

geyser 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST)

Bio Crisis

Gegenwart

Von immerhin vier Quellen (Konsolenbericht, Zeitungsbericht, Flughafen-Poster und Hasegawa’s Erzählung) wissen wir, dass der Smog bzw. die Quarantänezonen schon vor dem Big Bang präsent waren. Die Auswirkungen dessen sind jedoch noch weniger aufgezählt. Spekulation: Maskenpflicht und Gefahr von Krankheitserreger wie Viren in der freien Natur. Das Handbuch erwähnt noch, dass die Arbeiten außerhalb der Städte (bezüglich den Rückgewinnungsteams) und selbst an den APs sehr gefährlich sei.

Im Sturmanderung-Report ist 152ppm für die nicht weiter beschriebenen Dioxine als letzter gemessene Wert angegeben. Nach dem Big Bang würde der Smog und seine Symptome noch stärker sein. Ein AKZ-Bericht spricht von „Level-4-Toxinen“, die bei einer Überlastung entstehen. Eine Aussicht aufs kommende gibt uns das Outro – in Konoko’s Worten: „die Toten und Sterbenden säumen die Straßen“.

Vergangenheit

Ja, natürlich wissen wir nichts darüber, aber in Oni’s Welt, mit der kommenden Katastrophe, würden sicher Stimmen laut, die Antworten verlangen. Laut Handbuch ist die Regierung nur an der „Zentrierung des Wohlstands“ daher an der Zentrierung der Bevölkerung interessiert und eine schon verseuchte Umwelt ist da hilfreich. Ich denke dies war nur mit dem Gründungskrieg der WKR möglich. Parallele Wortlaute sind: „in Wahrheit ging es nur ums Geld“ und „Technopanik“. Dies führt zu der in 2.3.1 WKR (Entstehung) erklärten These, dass die Wirtschaft die Regierung steuert. (Siehe auch letzten Abschnitt.)

Zukunft

Wird keine diplomatische Lösung gefunden, werden WKR und Syndikat sich gegenseitig zu zerfetzen suchen. Dass dabei die Bevölkerung Leid tragend ist, macht es ideal sie zu manipulieren und gegen den „Feind“ einzusetzen. Wer die Bevölkerung überzeugen kann, hat gewonnen. Dabei stehen sich folgende Aspekte gegenüber: 1) Die WKR hat den Smog zu verantworten, das Syndikat dessen Stärkung. (Die WKR könnte Sturmanderung als nationalsozialistisch-hintergründigen Genozid auslegen.) 2) In der herrschenden Panik kann das Syndikat die Chrysalis als einzige Überlebenschance propagieren. (Wir wissen nicht wie stärk die Verseuchung wirklich ist. Demnach könnte es sich, wie bei der WKR-Gründung, um eine „Technopanik“ handeln.) Problem dabei ist, und wird demnach geheim gehalten, dass nicht annähernd zehn Milliarden Exemplare bereitstehen.

New World Order

(Auch die Interpretationen zu politischen und wirtschaftlichen Hintergründen dienten nur dazu einem „FanFiction“-Sequel Gestallt zu geben.) Nach verstärkter Recherche in Wikipedia zu den beiden Thematiken drifteten die Ausagen des Material immer weiter Richtung Verschwörungstheorie. Davon möchte ich mich distanzieren. Oni eigenes Material und dazugehörige Interpretationen sowie vereinzelte Fakten (z.B. aus Arte’s Themenabend: Why We Fight) sollen hierfür genügen.

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Present

We know from at least four sources (console reports, Fuji article, airport poster and Hasegawa's diary) that polluted air and/or quarantined zones had existed before the Big Bang (abnormal STURMANDERUNG pulse set off by Mai). The causes and direct consequences aren't mentioned. We can speculate that the citizens are often required to wear "HAPEMASK" respirators as protection against airborne pollutants and that the natural environment is contaminated with virulent pathogens (toxins/bacteria/viruses).

152ppm was the last measured dioxin level in the Sturmanderung report; after the Big Bang the pollution and their symptoms will be much more and stronger.

According to an ACC report "Class 4 airborne toxins" can arise when inverting the cleaning process. Whatever this means isn't clear - at least, Konoko talked about "The dead and the dying now line the streets" in the outro, so the effect must be enormous.

Past

Of course "we don't know that for sure", but with the upcoming global catastrophe (who can see it coming??? geyser) there is bound to be a public outcry demanding answers as for why this happened (sorry, at what moment??? geyser). And most probably the story started far in the past.

The manual states that the government is only interested in a "centralization of wealth", hence in a "concentrated population" ("pull" factor), and a polluted environment was helpful in that respect (as a "push factor"). I think this was only made possible by a war - the WCG foundation war (an exceptional "pull" factor).

Parallel quotes (possibly applicable to the genesis of META) are „If the truth were told, it was all about the money“ and „techno-phobia“.

Hence the thesis that it's the economy that runs the government, not the other way round.

(NEW: which would have META say "vote us in and we'll do it better"...)

(See also paragraph "New World Order" below)

(looks like you don't really understand the context of META's genesis; see below ^_^ geyser)

Future

If no diplomatic solution can be found, then the WCG and the Syndicate will try to tear each other into pieces. The fact that the population suffers the most will make it all the easier to manipulate and to set against the "enemy". He who has convinced the masses has won.

This raises the following contradictory trends:

1) WCG is responsible for originally creating the pollution or for not dealing with it, and the Syndicate - for making it increase. (as a bonus, the WCG could brand Sturmanderung as a genocide with a neonazi background) (OMG... geyser)

2) In the middle of the general panic the Syndicate can promote the Daodan Chrysalis as the only chance of survival. ("We don't know for sure" how strong the contamination will be. So the Syndicate might be bluffing, not unlike the WCG's use of "techno-phobia".)

(NEW: The WCG itself can say that the Daodan Chrysalis is just part two of the (neonazi) Sturmanderung - converting the survivors into genetically clean and better humans. (übermensch, eh??? geyser) (actually, that's not a lie... geyser)

However (notes concerning trend 2)

• (NEW: The Syndicate would prefer to let a lot of people die at the start because) they don't have 10 billion copies ready to distribute.

(how many do you think they have??? and how can they "distribute" matching clones to total strangers??? geyser 03:44, 4 October 2007 (CEST))

What would happen if they say "Yea, we are here to save you" and then "oh sorry, we don't have enough"?

• (NEW: Crap. It's not just unrealistic it would make them suspicious, too. So, saying the truth is even better at this point.

"As you see we are unprepared. But we will share our strength with as many people as possible, the WCG excluded.")

New World Order

(Keep in mind that those wild interpretations of the political and economical backgrounds only serve the purpose to give some "Gestalt" to a fan fiction sequel.)

After browsing Wikipedia a lot on those two aspects the statements in the material I found kept drifting in the direction of conspiracy theories. I'd like to stay away from that. Oni eigenes Material und dazugehörige Interpretationen sowie vereinzelte Fakten (z.B. aus Arte’s Themenabend: Why We Fight) sollen hierfür genügen.

So I decided to concentrate on using Oni's own material and directly relevant interpretations, as well as isolated facts (e.g., "why we fight" and "Söldner - ein Beruf mit Zukunft", documentaries from Arte's Theme Night).

(NEW: The interpretation and final use is a different story but I will also try my best not to overdo it. :)

(wow, are you reading Wikipedia upside down??? geyser) (or maybe the German Wikipedia is much less encyclopedical than the English one??? geyser)

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General thoughts about your idea of the aftermath, and your misconception of META.

Politics or conspiracies are IMO totally irrelevant after what you call the Big Bang.

(I've been calling it 12/3 and the Cataclysm so far, but it needs more brainstorming)

Martial law, skirmishes, religious fanatism: that's OK. But elections? Come on...

The centralized WCG runs a few dozen centralized regions and a few hundred centralized cities.

All these rely on iron lungs (the ACCs), and even so they face a steady rise of toxin levels.

If all but a few ACCs become unavailable, those cities will be no better than quarantined zones.

And with only a few regions/cities remaining, can the WCG have any physical authority at all?

(on the global scale, I mean; their troops just might be able to secure a city or region)

At the time of Oni, the WCG was already in a not-too-favorable geopolitical situation, but now...

Propaganda is of course relevant, but more at the scale of isolated cities under siege.

Ideology - maybe. But economy and politics walk, IMO. It's about resources, vital ones.

META is what happens when the Strikers claim control of a surviving city or region.

If they do it the smart way, they'll assimilate the WCG's media and administration.

More, later. Maybe you can proofread my proofreading of your translation first?

geyser 03:44, 4 October 2007 (CEST)

On a side note: fewer people means less pollution, ultimately. Regeneration (like in Nausicaa or Ergo Proxy).

However, if survivors concentrate, there's a risk of overpollution in the immediate vicinity (sorta like Ecoban).

geyser 03:51, 4 October 2007 (CEST)

Oh, note that I've made the console quotes conveniently transcludable. May add a few features later.

geyser 03:51, 4 October 2007 (CEST)

META is an original concept of a totalitarian state established shortly after 12/3.

If no diplomatic solution can be found, then the WCG and the Syndicate will try to tear each other into pieces.

But if a diplomatic solution can be found, then I had called it META. This was an idea before RS came to be considered as a big "gamebook". Well, the possibility of fusioned Syndicate and WCG have still a place in my thoughts. But more important to say: the official election was planned to be a fake. They declare WCG war but work secretly together. The people should believe "democracy is still alive".

Paradox-01 17:11, 6 October 2007 (CEST)

This part of the discussion is obviously off-topic in BioCrisis, but I'm not sure where we should move it.

Same goes for some of the points you responded to up there (BTW, rather create new sections down here).

geyser 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST)

We should see this as an temporary place for discussion (the topics are related). After finishing it will be placed somewhere else or deleted.

Paradox-01 19:29, 17 October 2007 (CEST)

the official election was planned to be a fake. They declare war on the WCG but work secretly together. The people should believe "democracy is still alive".

Democracy is dead. In Oni's world there's as much "freedom" and "democracy" as in today's Singapore

(and it's best not to think of what is called "freedom" and "democracy" in today's Europe and US ;) )

WCG citizens know they're owned, and they know why they're here. Freedom = acknowledged necessity.

Oni's society is a homeostasis that works the way it works and looks like it can keep working that way forever.

There is, however, no illusion of democracy. None. Who in Singapore believes "democracy is still alive"?

Same thing here. The WCG is a Big Brother state. Single-party. A blatantly dictatorial regime. Is it not?

Now take out almost all the iron lungs. Leave only a few cities capable of sustaining life.

Unprecedented mortality, pollution, migration flows, and rationing of vital resources.

Hard to think of a less appropriate time to organize (or fake) an electoral campaign...

geyser 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST)

About democracy ... ok, you convinced me.

(.. today I'm thinking loud.)

Then again: what could be dis-/advantages in comparing faked democracy and a dictatorship? ... not important, never mind. ^^

Well, I think the global community simply don't tolerate to many dictatorships... And "single-party states" like China and Singapore seems to be more okay. Ironical this states are part of the UN.

However: this means that Big Brother (government as total) will choose some Little Brothers (WCG members) to be scapegoats. After cleaning up they (Syndicate / META / ...) can introduce new politics / ideology / "whatever".

But now the new BioCrisis would make it hard to control even one region. If the people goes onto the street it is less steps away from panic and lootings, or civil war because of the breaking political structure (a chance for taking down bigbro.)

So what can we do to avoid this? We talked about the Daodan .. it has virus features. I wonder if they couldn't spread it into the air over the cities. Actually: no, I cannot imagine this case... The DC has also to do with implantation.

Could the WGC say: we have a solution but it isn't enough? Will they hide them-self behind the TCTF / army? How many deserters among them will appear, and then the crowd in fury will overrun them? Are we really going to create an absolute horror scenario?

(We might move this part to the WCG talk page.)

And pollutions and it effects: please see my reply about "the time frame".

Paradox-01 19:29, 17 October 2007 (CEST)

"But if a diplomatic solution can be found, then I had called it META." You called it META? ;)

(maybe you meant "But if a diplomatic solution can be found, then I would call it META"?)

I myself had no clear idea of META's genesis when I came up with the concept (it was just "there").

Right now, I see it as a series of radical revolutions. Dramatically violent. As in "heads fly".

Not only is there a worldwide ecological disaster, but the bioterrorists are still there.

That makes martial law unavoidable IMO. The WCG can no longer rely on moral authority alone.

Even if there are moderate factions on either side, can they really stop Muro's Strikers?

geyser 11:11, 10 October 2007 (CEST)

(META. Meta means for me also "übergreifend". I was thinking of it as something ambiguous.)

When Muro's Strikers are dangerous to everybody including BGI a possible step could be cooperation on the execution force base.

Taking own troops (semi-good hitmen, sniper mercenaries), TCTF, army, and even Mai.

In case on success WCG heads will become scapegoats and the old Syndicate choose a new hierarchy for them.

(The deal with Mai will also negated. -- But this is just an idea and won't happen. Because of .. well .. we don't want an WCG with Syndicate heads. ^^

Paradox-01 19:29, 17 October 2007 (CEST)

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Sorry for not having written earlier. These days I find that elaborating Oni 2 is not the most urgent priority.

What is needed right now is an entertaining rehash of Oni's resources: the Seventh Anniversary Edition thing.

Please try not to insert thoughts in the middle of previous "posts". It makes the talk (even) less logical.

geyser 20:35, 18 November 2007 (CET)

If I understand correctly, the overwhelming power of the Strikers could motivate a coalition against them.

• I agree that it is appealing to imagine a few individuals or organisations with enough power to fight back.

For example, BGI could have a few strongholds that it might attempt to secure against everyone else.

Or there could be civilian "heroes": small groups of survivors fighting to protect their supplies.

But, in my opinion, no one will want to confront the Strikers just to protect the interests of the WCG.

• One problem is that the forces that are supposed to oppose the Strikers were already there during Oni.

Whatever kept them from intervening? and why would they become so much more determined and organized?

In my opinion there is no entity that can oppose the Strikers on strategic scales.

"TCTF, army, and even Mai" will not be able to fight back the Strikers and to take care of the mob.

geyser 20:35, 18 November 2007 (CET)

"We don't want of a WCG with Syndicate heads"... heck, why not? That's the only thing that can happen.

The takeover is ambiguous. There's no real "scapegoat" here, and no actual "plan for world domination".

Only a WCG taken over by Strikers has enough credibility and power to "handle" Oni's aftermath. IMO.

As I said before, both the WCG and the Strikers can see the victory as their own. It's a synergy.

As for the people: the new entity will be popular if it acts in the direction of disaster relief.

geyser 20:35, 18 November 2007 (CET)

To your extra points on democracy above. Of course this is totally off-topic here. We should probably make a page called "Winter Number Zero" for the aftermath talk.

When you say "the global community simply doesn't tolerate dictatorships", as I said, it's best not to think of what's being called democracy in today's world... ;)

Dictatorships have always been OK in times of trouble. Even the oh-so-democratic USA would switch to martial law in a heartbeat if there was major global s##t.

To fake a democracy requires enormous financial resources and few other priorities than to preserve a relatively placid social status quo. In times of peace it works.

Martial law or dictatorship make things easier since you can bypass the more subtle propaganda, and do what you need to do, without having to conceal or explain it.

Thus, you don't have to go to the trouble of presenting your enemies as scapegoats to the public, or at least you can do so in much blunter ways than in democracy.

geyser 20:35, 18 November 2007 (CET)

"the new BioCrisis would make it hard to control even one region" - that's correct.

"So what can we do to avoid this?" - to avoid what exactly? Anarchy? Well, we can do META :)

If the most powerful factions spend time fighting each other, the public will be out of control.

If there's a quick victory and an overwhelming authority (at local scale), there will be order.

Propaganda alone can not contain the crowd. Neither can the Daodan (it's awfully unethical).

What can work is a series of measures towards disaster relief backed up by dissuasive force.

But that can only work if the resources are secured, and if there's no major enemy to fight.

In that sense, the best outcome for everyone is a quick end to the WCG-Syndicate struggle.

Whether it's a formal agreement or, more likely, a bloody coup, it will generate stability.

geyser 20:35, 18 November 2007 (CET)